1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,279 Speaker 1: People have accused me of being paid by Bill Gates, 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: and I'm always like, if Bill if riches, Bill Gates 3 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: is cutting me checks, and why is my apartment so crappy? Right? Like? 4 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: If his checks are not clearing, they got lots of 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: the mail. If they if he's meant to be sending, 6 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: then they have not reached me. They haven't reached me either. 7 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: I would not be living here if I was being 8 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: paid by Bill Gates and the governments and the World 9 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: Economic Forum. There are no girls on the Internet. As 10 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: a production of my Heart Radio and Unboss Creative, I'm 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd and this is there are no girls on 12 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: the Internet. The invasion of Ukraine by Russia is a scary, tense, 13 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: highly charged situation, and as we know, with scary, tense, 14 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: highly charged situations also comes a flood of misleading, inaccurate 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: or straight up fabricated content being shared across social media. 16 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: Now on TikTok, I've seen videos taken for films or 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: video games pretending that that footage is actually from Ukraine. 18 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: I've seen old videos from other conflicts purporting to be 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: from Ukraine, and even worse, because of TikTok's live stream feature, 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: where users can collect donations from viewers in real time. 21 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: Some grifters are even using these fake videos to lie 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: about streaming live from Ukraine to make money. Marie Cowper's 23 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: is a social media expert who told me that one 24 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: of the reasons that TikTok is so ripe for disinformation 25 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: is because of the speed by which users are surfaced 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: questionable content on their for you page. Marie has been 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: tracking inaccurate and misleading Ukraine videos on TikTok, but it 28 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: didn't start there. For Marie, it started when she started 29 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: noticing false information about things like diets and health. It 30 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: really started when I saw a lot of different videos 31 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: popping up with really weird information. It didn't start with, 32 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: you know the amount of disinformation that's happening now, But 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: it was just small things like uh, um, how diet 34 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: soda is going to give you cancer? Lots of stuff 35 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: about health, uh scary stories. Also there were scaring children 36 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: and that weren't true. But I didn't see a lot 37 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: of these videos pop up on my own for you page. 38 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: I just saw one every once in a while. So 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: I decided to make another account to see what was happening. 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: Because I was really curious is there more more to this, 41 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: because you know, I'm seeing some really weird stories going around. 42 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: So I created a different accounts to my own, where 43 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: I started just liking conspiracy theories, really dodgy info and 44 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: everything I normally wouldn't like, and the algorithm just started 45 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: serving me a whole bunch of questionable videos um that 46 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: I was just really really shocked to see, and that 47 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: in my language in Dutch, nobody else was talking about 48 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: or debunking or fact checking. So that's why I started, 49 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,839 Speaker 1: because I saw that people were getting affected by this 50 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: information and nobody was talking about it, so well, I'll 51 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: do it then. So often when I have these conversations, 52 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: there has been some failure by some platform to to 53 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: do something right. So for you, it was disinformation in 54 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: Dutch on TikTok um, and you know, uh, just a 55 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: regular person, usually a woman or a person of color 56 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: or somebody who is already marginalized, just said, Okay, no 57 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: one is doing this, I'll do it. I'll take I'll 58 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: do the work of making this platform safe or or 59 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: at least chronicling what is going on. Did you feel 60 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: compelled in that way to sort of take on this 61 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: fight it's it feels almost like a moral obligation for 62 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: me because I see the effects it's having on people, 63 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: and I also see that it's not just misinformation about health, 64 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: which has really bad consequences obviously, but also um, the 65 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: same algorithms are pushing uh this alternative account that I 66 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: have into really far right uh TikTok, really extreme videos 67 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: uh that I was also reporting, and they were not 68 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: getting taken down, so which is also really strange to me. 69 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: Just just it's just shocking to me how huge these 70 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: videos are and it it seems like nobody was seeing 71 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: it or responding it to it. And then, yeah, it 72 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: feels like a moral obligation because it's the consequences of 73 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: misinformation are just not just people believing stuff that isn't true, 74 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:45,040 Speaker 1: but it leads to biases or you know, blaming other 75 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: people sometimes when it's misinformation about vaccines that you know, 76 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: goes into conspiracy theories about the Great Reset and this 77 00:04:55,080 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: global cabal which is usually Jewish Jewish people. Uh. That's 78 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: also something that I've seen a lot since I've you know, 79 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: looked into conspiracy theories. When the invasion of Ukraine happened, 80 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: I how could I put this. It was a pretty 81 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: terrifying moment, Like it definitely was a moment of crisis. 82 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: And I know that in moments of crisis, I definitely 83 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:21,679 Speaker 1: feel this, and I think a lot of other people 84 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: feel this. You feel sort of powerless, and so you're like, 85 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: what can I do? I'll share information? And I caught 86 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: myself going to share a lot of very moving videos, 87 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: a lot of very visually arresting videos. And then I 88 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: think I saw a tweet it was I think I 89 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: think it might have been from Abby Richards that was like, 90 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: in this moment, take a beat, take a breath before 91 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: you share things. And then I saw your account all 92 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: of these videos purporting to be from Ukraine that were 93 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: either very misleading or just completely inaccurate, Like not Ukraine. 94 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,799 Speaker 1: What kind of disinformation and misleading stuff are you seeing 95 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: in relation to the invasion of Ukraine? Ah, so a 96 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: couple of different types of misinformation and disinformation. I've been 97 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: seeing a lot a lot of old videos, so I 98 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: think that's something that happens more often in these crisis situations. 99 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: It's a lot of old footage of explosions that happened, 100 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: Like I saw a video that was an explosion and 101 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: it had ten million views. But this was not an 102 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: explosion in Ukraine. It was in Lebanon a year ago. 103 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: Uh So it's real footage, but it's not in Ukraine. 104 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,679 Speaker 1: Um And, because people are so interested in seeing more 105 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: and and so invested anything that even remotely seems like 106 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: it could be in Ukraine or is like related to 107 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: war or shooting or explosions, it just goes wild on 108 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: TikTok it has. Yeah, it just goes insanely viral. Um So, 109 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: older videos have been circulating of conflicts and explosions. Also, 110 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: I've been seeing, uh video game footage because video games 111 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: are so realistic. Now that there's been footage of Arma three, 112 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: the video game that's been shared. Sometimes it's a little 113 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: zoomed in or they've made it a little darker, so 114 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: it's less easy to recognize. But that's uh And, and 115 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: people just don't see that it's a video game unless 116 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: you know the game animations. I've seen being shared. There's 117 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: an animation of someone on Instagram who made a World 118 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: War two animation. So if you know your airplanes, you 119 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: can see that the airplanes that are in the animation 120 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: are not you know, modern airplanes. Their b twelve airplanes 121 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: I think from the Second World War. Uh so those 122 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: are the things I've been seeing and um, yeah, mostly 123 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: those kind of videos are circulating on on on TikTok. 124 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: Is just like old footage misleading stuff. Yeah, I mean 125 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: I that I've seen a couple of video game images 126 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: or videos and I didn't know about the animations. But 127 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: do you think there is something to the fact that 128 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: we have a hunger for I use some quotes content 129 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: about the about invasions and about you know, high high 130 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: crisis situations that are kind of cinematic, and so there's 131 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: maybe there's like the idea that we would be being 132 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: fooled by video games and and animations and stills from 133 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: films and things like that. I almost feel like it's 134 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: this It speaks to this need in us, or this 135 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: conditioning in us that we expect the footage from these 136 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: things to have a storyline and have good animation, good graphics, 137 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: and to be so visually arresting. And maybe that's why 138 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 1: people are able to be like, oh well this is 139 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: definitely from a from a conflict in Ukraine. Yeah, well, 140 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: this is something I've really noticed as well. So I 141 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: actually studied film and photography. I have a Muster's degree 142 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: in film and photography, and this is something I've also 143 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: seen in conspiracy theories in general, like Q and on 144 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: where um they're basically talking about the conspiracy theory as 145 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: if it's a movie, as if it's a big plot 146 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: and there's actors and you know, there's a conclusion and 147 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: the just like narrative movie movie narratives basically, and the 148 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: same goes for visual disinformation. It's it works the best 149 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: when it's a story. So if it's emotional and there's 150 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: a good guy and a bad guy and you can 151 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: root for the good guy. Um, I recognize what you're saying. Yeah, 152 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: it's definitely true. In audio, there was one time I 153 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: think I switched on and Alex Jones radio show, and 154 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: I kid you not, he was screaming into the microphones 155 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: were just like poor microphone etiquette about how because of 156 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: COVID in the vaccines, Bill Gates was gonna make us 157 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 1: all eat bugs and he was screaming about it, and 158 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: I was thinking, Yeah, someone just talking in a in 159 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: a regular voice about the dangers of conspiracy theories or 160 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: like the realities of the COVID vaccine, like accurate information. 161 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: They could never compete attention wise, like you really have to. 162 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: You would really have to work to compete with someone 163 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: who is being that dramatic, because that there's something about 164 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: your brain that is like, oh, well, this is really sensational, 165 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: Let me tune into this, let me give this my attention, 166 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: and we really have a big fight if we're going 167 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: to make content that is equally as compelling but also 168 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: based in accuracy and truth and nuance and thoughtfulness. That's 169 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: definitely a struggle that I've been having as well, because, uh, 170 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: I think sometimes what works about my videos is that 171 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: I try and really make it a TikTok, like really 172 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: make it presented in a way that's not just a 173 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: newsreader reading something without any emotion and and just you know, 174 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: here are the facts, because that just doesn't work. It 175 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: doesn't get the same amount of use, like you said, 176 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: So I do try and uh, you know, grab the attention, 177 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: because you have to grab the attention on TikTok because 178 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: if you don't, you know, have someone's attention in the 179 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: first five seconds, they're already gone. So you need to 180 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: kind of sensationalize yourself to get people to watch the video. 181 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: But then you also want to be correct, and you 182 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: don't wanna maybe spread a conspiracy theory even further by 183 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: beginning with a whole story about Q and on and 184 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: then after a minute you you start debunking it because 185 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: then people are already gone. Um. So it's a it's 186 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: something that I've been struggling with, but it's something that 187 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: I think traditional media can do more, uh to to 188 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: improve their contents and make it more appealing and also 189 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: not just you know, sometimes traditional media are kind of 190 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: uh I I don't want to say elitist or like 191 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: a little bit like uh, this is just you know, 192 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: uh yeah, or journalists and uh, the facts are the facts, 193 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: and you know, but that's not how it works in 194 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: real life, because teenagers who are on TikTok and are 195 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: going to go to some website with dry facts if 196 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: they can just watch people on TikTok uh make really 197 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: exciting videos about it. I think it really boils down 198 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,959 Speaker 1: to lack of trust in media as as a as 199 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: an institution. And I think part of that is exactly 200 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: what you said, is that when you only are able 201 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: to present information in ways that feel really alienating to 202 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: to a lot of your audience base of course they're 203 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: going to check out. And when you have such a 204 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: when you have a vast, a very vast network of 205 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: people offering something else speaking to this audience and in 206 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: a way that that that that they then compelling, of 207 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: course they're going to turn towards that and away from 208 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: these traditional institutions of media. So I completely agree with you. 209 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: I think that you know, it's understandable to me why 210 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: so many people are getting their information from some questionable sources, 211 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: and then it's fuelled this already kind of like lingering 212 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: distrust they have in the institution of journalism or media. Yeah, yeah, 213 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: I totally agree. I I worked for the Dutch National 214 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: News for a couple of years as a social media 215 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: manager and a journalist, so I've been in the traditional 216 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: media companies, um, and there's really kind of um. Yeah, 217 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: they're they're they're trying, I guess. But what I noticed 218 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: really is what you just said is that young people 219 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: are so um distrusting and also because it's not transparent, 220 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: they want to know why you're making certain news stories 221 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: and not other news stories, and why you're using certain words. 222 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: So it's not like they're not interested. They're very interested, 223 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: and they to know why the news is being made 224 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: the way it is. Um, but we don't trust them enough, 225 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: I guess to explain it to them. Sometimes we we 226 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: just it seems kind of condescending to me sometimes, the 227 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: way that fact checks can be done in traditional media, 228 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: where it's almost like, if you believe this, you're kind 229 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: of stupid, is the way it comes. Yeah, it comes 230 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: across to me sometimes. And I understand that if you 231 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: see something like that and you're already distrustful and you 232 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: feel so condescended to and then also the person telling 233 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: you this is totally unrelatable. Uh yeah, I understand why 234 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: you wouldn't believe it. Let's take a quick break at 235 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: our back. We have found that fact checking and bunking 236 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: it's actually it's particularly news. It's actually not that effective 237 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: at curbing the spread of false information, and yet we 238 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: still rely on it even though we know it's not 239 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: terribly effective. And I also think it can be kind 240 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: of condescending, like if you believe this, you're some kind 241 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: of a moron, And it obscures the reality that people 242 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: like I fall for misinformation. It happens to the best 243 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: of us. Some of it is so savvy and and 244 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: hits the exact right tension points that you already have 245 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: because misinformers and disinformers are really good at it. And 246 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: so if we if we tell people that, oh, you're 247 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: an idiot for falling for this, of course they're going 248 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: to be be that's not going to be compelling to them, 249 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: you know. And I also think what you said about 250 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: meet like traditional media not always feeling like they need 251 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: to let particularly younger people in on the business of 252 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: how stories get made, the business of content. Um. I 253 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: absolutely think that it is a thing where I think 254 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: a lot of these instant usians don't feel like they 255 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: need to be accountable to young people. They just don't 256 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: feel like any of their listenership or audience really deserves 257 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: to know how stories get made and how these decisions 258 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: get made, and how the story that you see on 259 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: your on your you know, social media feed comes to be. 260 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: I don't think that they feel like their audience deserves 261 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: a peek into that. And I think that you're exactly 262 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: right that people are curious, and I think if we 263 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: were able to have some more transparency around those kinds 264 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: of conversations, it might do some of the work of 265 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: building back that public trust in media as an institution. Yeah, yeah, 266 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: it's there could be a lot more transparency about the 267 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: way journalists work and why they do things, and why 268 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: they use certain words or why they make certain stories 269 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: or don't make them. I think I think that would 270 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: help a lot. But what you said, it's like they 271 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: don't I think young people deserve it, or even you know, 272 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: like they feel that they wouldn't understand it, or like 273 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: they're young people. It's kind of they don't. They're not 274 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,640 Speaker 1: taken seriously, um, which is really bad because when they're young, 275 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: you can actually teach them stuff, which is going to 276 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: get a lot more difficult when they're older and they're 277 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: all set in everything they believe. And when they're young, 278 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: you can like let let them see how the news 279 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: is made so that later on they understand how it 280 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: works and they're they're more trusting. But it's even even 281 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: when I'm making a TikTok video, like a traditional news 282 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: organization could do the same thing, but then there would 283 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: be a whole team behind the news video that you 284 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: don't see, and it's just being presented by someone in 285 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: the video and you don't know who wrote the script, 286 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: who who you know edited it. It's just makes it 287 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: kind of easier to trust someone who's just one person, 288 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: which is what works with disinformation as well, with like 289 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: people like Alex Jones or other people who are uh, 290 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: you know, showing their personality as well, so you feel 291 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: like you they're a real person who has emotions, who 292 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: is not like completely neutral and everything and has no 293 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: uh yeah, emotions about any news. I think it works 294 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: better when you uh. There's obviously like negative aspects of it, 295 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: but just being one person in front of the camera 296 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: instead of having an entire team also increases trust. I 297 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: think people like to get their information from their trusted source, right, 298 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: like this person who is my friend in my head, 299 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: you know, in the whole conversation you were having about 300 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, that was one of the things I feel 301 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: like people really I wish we had a bigger conversation about, 302 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: which is that people have been listening to Joe broken 303 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 1: in their earbuds for years and years and years. He 304 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: is their trusted source and friend in their head. They 305 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: in their mind, I mean, we all do it, right, 306 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: Like my favorite podcast host, I definitely have a like 307 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: para social relationship with them in my mind that they 308 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: have no idea about and that is a big part 309 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: of building trust. And so it's not it's not always 310 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: going to be like, yeah, it's not going to be 311 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: this like news reader who is coming at something in 312 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: in a specific, unbiased way. Who is going to be 313 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: able to foster that kind of trust. Yeah. Yeah. And 314 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: also you know, relatability or someone who looks like yours, 315 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 1: your same age, who maybe understands your point of view. 316 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: If if that person is saying it, uh, I would 317 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: trust it more than just you know, someone who feels 318 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: totally far removed from me some you know, uh, random 319 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: white guy who's presenting the news who's like fifty years 320 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: old and telling me that you know something I believe 321 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: is wrong. Okay, but you don't know anything from about 322 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: my experience. One of the videos that you shared from 323 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 1: TikTok really caught my eye. It was a video that 324 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: was to be sort of poking fun at American liberals, 325 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: and it was like, uh, you're when like point of view, 326 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: when you're an American liberal who is anti war for 327 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: everything except for when it comes to Russia, and you know, 328 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: are you seeing videos that are targeted targeted at Americans 329 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: or meant to sort of prompt Americans or people who 330 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: are you know, not in Ukraine or not in Russia 331 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: to have a certain point of view about this invasion. Yeah. Um, 332 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: like the most of what I've seen, I think there's definitely, um, 333 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: the pro Ukrainian content that's being shared is in the majority, 334 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: But the couple of like pro Russian accounts that I've 335 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: seen are pro Putin accounts that I've seen, they also 336 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: are usually anti Biden and anti you know that they're 337 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: they're kind of on the right wing America side in 338 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: the other content that they post, So it does seem 339 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:09,239 Speaker 1: like those accounts are really trying to reach Americans and 340 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: like get some distrust in the government also growing, which 341 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: is something I've seen also with q and on accounts 342 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: on TikTok that are like, yeah, also very anti Biden. 343 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: There's like I think there's a huge anti Biden hashtag 344 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: that's TikTok still hasn't banned yet, but all the people 345 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: on on TikTok are using it to spread conspiracy theories 346 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: and Q and on stuff. And I don't want to 347 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 1: repeat it in case people will go go looking for it, 348 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: but it's like it's it's like a like a joke 349 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: making fun of Biden. But when you search the hashtag, 350 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 1: there's only there's only conspiracy theories and misinformation. That's so interesting, 351 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: and I think it goes back to something we see 352 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: time and time again, is that one of the reasons 353 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: why all of these conspiracy theories are kind of linked 354 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: that you might be thinking, what does Q and on 355 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory people believe that, you know, children are 356 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: being you know, trafficked by nefarious Democrats or whatever, and 357 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: anti vaccine stuff, like, what do they all have in common? 358 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: And I think it's all It all goes back to 359 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: chipping away at public trust and institutions. And so whether 360 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: it's our president Biden, or whether it's the doctor giving 361 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: you a vaccine or doctor Sauci on TV, or you know, 362 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: the lawmaker who you suspect might be trafficking kids or 363 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: something like, it is all about chipping away at public 364 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,680 Speaker 1: trust and institutions. And luckily for these people who want 365 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: to do that, there are a lot of reasons for 366 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: people to not be so you know, rara about trusting 367 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: their public institutions. And so everything goes back to this 368 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: idea of bad actors poking at existing tension points, existing traumas, existing, 369 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, realities to say like yes, and that's why 370 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: it's important to distrust these people. And I'm someone who 371 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: was like, I think a healthy skepticism is good. But 372 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: the way that they're able to really take a basic 373 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: thing like oh, yeah, it's good to question authority, it's 374 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: good to question government and turn up the dials so 375 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: in such a wild way, I think just shows how 376 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: favvy disinformers really are. Yeah, and and and why it 377 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: works so well and why nobody is immune to it, 378 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: because you know, there are things that are uh, there 379 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: are bad things happening, there are institutions that are that 380 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: you can really criticize, but they take advantage of that. 381 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: And I think we see a lot of disinformers using 382 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: actual criticisms and tensions and things that are maybe grounded 383 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,239 Speaker 1: in reality um for people, and they really turn up 384 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: the dials into something that where it goes into sort 385 00:23:49,640 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: of dangerous territory. More after a quick break, let's get 386 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: right back into it. One of the biggest threats that 387 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: this information poses is that it makes it really difficult 388 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: to have thoughtful, accurate conversations, especially about topics that are 389 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: highly charged it just takes up a lot of oxygen 390 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: in the room, and it is meant to cause confusion, 391 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: increased polarization, and distrust. And because disinformation is often rooted 392 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: in some kernel of truth or legitimate tension or grievance, 393 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 1: if that tension is intentionally exploited or inflamed, you can't 394 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: even actually have a real conversation about the legitimate issues 395 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: because the conversation has become so muddled and extreme. Marie 396 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: saw this play out firsthand in conversations about the World 397 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: Economic Forum, the international organization founded by economist Klaus Schwab 398 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: that's known for bringing together some of the world's most 399 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: powerful and richest people of the Davos Summit in Switzerland 400 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: in the summer of the head of Davos announced a 401 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 1: new initiative calling for the pandemic to be as an 402 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: opportunity for what they were calling the Great Reset. Now, 403 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: this was meant to be a reset of the global 404 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 1: economy in pretty broad terms, encompassing everything from reliance on 405 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:14,400 Speaker 1: fossil fuels to tech regulation uh conspiracy. Theorist pounced claiming 406 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 1: the Great Reset was actually a ploy for wealthy global elites, 407 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: which we know is pretty much code for Jewish people 408 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: to use COVID as an excuse to seize power and 409 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: institute a new world order. So even though Marie has 410 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 1: real issues with the World Economic Forum, the entire conversation 411 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: around it has been so steeped in conspiracy that her 412 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: actual criticisms can't even be thoughtfully discussed because the conspiracy 413 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: theories loom so large. I think that's really important because 414 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,440 Speaker 1: I can really see that as well. There's this Great 415 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: Reset conspiracy theory about you know, the World Economic Forum, uh, 416 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: and it's uh, you know, a leader cloud sch web 417 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: and how much influence they have on the pandemic, and 418 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: you know how maybe they are using the pandemic make 419 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: to gain control of the world and get a one 420 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: world government formed, um, get like social credit systems in place, 421 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: all these types of things. It's it's kind of a 422 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: you know, modern version of the New World Order conspiracy theory, 423 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: which is also something that's uh kind of old. Um. 424 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: But I was looking into this and because of all 425 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 1: these conspiracy theories, I had already kind of um dismissed everything, 426 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: all the criticism of the World Economic Forum and the 427 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: Great Reset and all that stuff, because I was like, well, 428 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: these stories are so crazy. Uh. I was almost defending 429 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,719 Speaker 1: the World Economic Forum, but then when I look into it, 430 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: like obviously the big conspiracy theories about them being the 431 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: Great Reset and this plan to use the pandemic and 432 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: all these things, they are not true. But there are 433 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: some things about the World Economic Forum and having more 434 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: power in the world and wanting to give companies more 435 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: power than you know, like these stakeholders giving them more power, 436 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: which you can be very critical of if you want 437 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: to have a democracy and you don't want companies to 438 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 1: you know, have like a really huge part in in 439 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: that democracy and how decisions are made. So there's it's 440 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: almost dangerous also because there's real criticism that's getting dismissed 441 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: because of these conspiracy theories. Oh my gosh. I mean 442 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: I find myself defending people and institutions where I'm like, 443 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: I don't even like them that much, but like I'd 444 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 1: like defending them, and I think that's the problem with that. 445 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: That's what's at stake when it comes to conspiracy theories 446 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: and disinformation and extremism is that they keep us from 447 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: having actual conversations, Like I can't come to the table 448 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: and bring legitimate grievances or legitimate conversations I want to 449 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: have about institutions to the conversation part really online because 450 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: the conversation is just a wash in conspiracy theories, bad 451 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: faith takes disinformation, and so we're not able to have 452 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: a conversation about some of the grievances and some of 453 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: the legitimate criticisms because the conversation is just a wash 454 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: in conspiracies. And so you could if you wanted to 455 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: just have a thoughtful, nuanced conversation, there's no place for 456 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 1: you to do that online. What you just said about, 457 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: you know, defending people that you don't don't even really like. 458 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: I have the same thing because there's politicians in the 459 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: Netherlands that I really don't like at all. Uh, but 460 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, they were getting videos made about them that 461 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: are completely untrue. So I debunk those videos. But then 462 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: people are like, oh, you must be getting paid by 463 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: this politician, or you must love him, or you know 464 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: sexist stuff about you know, being his girlfriend, or you 465 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: know all those types of things. Uh. When I would 466 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: want to say to them, I really don't like this politician. 467 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: Actually I really don't like them. But people think that 468 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: just because you're debunking stuff. That's also the danger. It's 469 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: it's created these camps between people where you're either awake 470 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: and you know about all the conspiracy theories, or you're 471 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: not and all the other people are crazy. Uh uh, 472 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: So you just dismiss each other and it's either you're 473 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: you're crazy or you're just a sheep who's not awake. 474 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: And there's no middle. So as soon as you say 475 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: something critical of a conspiracy theory, you're immediately in the 476 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: sheep camp. And you're getting paid by the you know, 477 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: by um, the World Economic Forum or by the government. 478 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: I've I've been accused of being paid by so many 479 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: people I should be rich by now I'm not. Unfortunately, Yeah, 480 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: people have accused me of being paid by Bill Gates. 481 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: And I'm always like, if Bill, if this Bill Gates 482 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 1: is cutting me checks, and why is my apartment so crappy? Right, Like, 483 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: if his checks are not clearing, they got lost in 484 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: the mail, if they if he's meant to be sending, 485 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: then they have not reached me. They haven't reached me either. 486 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: I would not be living here if I was being 487 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: baked by Bill Gates and the government and the World 488 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: Economic Forum TikTok has a platform is kind of tailor 489 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: made for war footage, as Chris Stokell Walker writes it 490 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: a piece for Wired. Prior research has shown that fake 491 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: news travels six times faster than legitimate information on social media, 492 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: in part because of its ability to trigger a strong 493 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: emotional response. TikTok's design, which throws users headlong into an immersive, 494 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: endless stream of snappy content, is designed to monopolize attention. 495 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 1: TikTok's sound feature, whereabout users can easily add sounds from 496 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: an existing library to their videos, was a big part 497 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: of the platform back when it was called byte Dance, 498 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: and it was mostly used to showcase teenagers doing cube dances. 499 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: But now users can use this feature to easily add 500 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: existing war sounds to videos purporting to be Ukraine to 501 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: make them appear more authentic. Researcher and friend of the 502 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: show Abbie Richards found that audio of gunfire from a 503 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: viral video filmed before the invasion ever even began, was 504 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: used in over sevent videos before TikTok removed it. Users 505 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: were adding the gunfire audio to their own videos to 506 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: make them seem as though they were taken during the invasion. 507 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: TikTok has a lot of raw footage, which gives the 508 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: impression that you're actually watching something live as it unfolds, 509 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: but it also makes it prime for exploitation because there 510 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: isn't really a lot of verification happening, which has led 511 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: to users looping videos or using old videos, claiming their 512 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: live feeds from Ukraine asking viewers for donations to support 513 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: It's pretty despicable on TikTok when you do live streams. 514 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: A lot of live streams are monetized. What do you 515 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: make of the fact that a couple of the live 516 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: streams purporting to be from Ukraine but are not from 517 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: Ukraine are also one getting lots and lots of viewers. 518 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: But to getting me, they're basically able to use TikTok 519 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: as a platform to profit materially from live about an 520 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:14,239 Speaker 1: active invasion. Yeah, well, my faith in humanity is you know, 521 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: it's it's still there, but it's getting a little damaged, 522 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: especially when you see that during the war. Even then, 523 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: people are still profiting off of it by spreading, you know, 524 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: fake videos, which is what they're doing with the live streams. 525 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: Especially in the first days after the war started, there 526 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: were people going live and you know, I saw live 527 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: streams with hundreds of thousands of viewers and all these 528 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: people being so compassionate in the comments and saying we 529 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: love you, we support you, and we hope you're doing well, 530 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: and sending so so so many gifts because on TikTok 531 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: you can send gifts to people who are alive. Uh. 532 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: And I checked one of these lives to see how 533 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: many gifts they had received in that one life, uh, 534 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 1: and it was like a couple of thousand dollars, I think. 535 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: But if you do that for a couple of days, 536 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: and you do multiple live streams, you can get a 537 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: lot of money. And there's also people you know, uh 538 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: getting donation links in their in their bios, So it's 539 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: not even through TikTok's, it's just on other platforms and 540 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: they're just you know, profiting off the situation. That's something 541 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: I always go back to, is this idea that so 542 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: many disinformers and bad actors it's just a grift, it's 543 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: just a scam. Like there are people out there who 544 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: are interested in, you know, actively misleading people for nefarious 545 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: you know, means, But then there are also people who 546 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: are doing it just because they want money and it's 547 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: a grift. It's it's you know, just like any other scam. 548 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,719 Speaker 1: And I think why that is so look, but there 549 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: are so many reasons I find that so lonesome. But 550 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: one of them is that for every dollar that is 551 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: being spent given to someone who is purporting to be 552 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: live streaming from Ukraine and they're really not that money 553 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: that could go to somebody who actually needs it, who 554 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: was actually impacted, that's money and attention, right, because like 555 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 1: your attention has worked, and so I feel like it 556 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: is again it makes it so that the the conversation 557 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: and the attention and the financial benefit is just not 558 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 1: going where it needs to be. It's just like what's 559 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: happening with these conspiracy theories leading away from actual problems 560 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: and you know, making it more difficult to talk about 561 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: that the same thing is happening with this money going 562 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: to people that aren't using it and where the money 563 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: could be going to actually help people in Ukraine or 564 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: you know, do good things. Um. Yeah, it's just it's 565 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: just getting real people's compassion and real people's uh um, 566 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 1: you know, wanting to help, but abusing it in this 567 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: time where it feels very tense and scary, and a 568 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: lot of people probably feel very powerless, myself included. Do 569 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: you have any tips where for anyone listening who wants 570 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: to stay informed, wants to be using their social media 571 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: to inform themselves and others, any tips to avoid spreading 572 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: inaccurate information, either in general or particularly when it comes 573 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 1: to the invasion in Ukraine. I've been asked a bunch 574 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: of times these days, uh, if I have tips for 575 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: checking stuff yourself. But I also want to say that, 576 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,400 Speaker 1: you know you can't check everything. Uh, There's there's a 577 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 1: reason that there are experts and their journalists and uh, 578 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: you know, maybe you're working and you already have like 579 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: a ton of things on your mind. You can't check 580 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: every single thing that comes on your for you page 581 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 1: or another social media platforms. So I don't think you 582 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: can expect that of people. But um, of course you 583 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: can check stuff when you have the energy to do it. Um. 584 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 1: It begins with you, know, knowing your own biases, knowing 585 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 1: how misinformation uses your emotions to manipulate manipulate you, so 586 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: that you know you're aware that when a video is 587 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: really scary or makes you really angry, or maybe confirms 588 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: some beliefs, you have about a situation, maybe a really 589 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: pro Russian, maybe a really pro Ukraine. So when something 590 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: fits really neatly into that story, you should be aware 591 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: that it might be um fake and you need to 592 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: check twice. And also just um, you know, not sharing 593 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: everything immediately what you said is is really important, and 594 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 1: just uh taking a second looking at it again, thinking 595 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: about how you feel, and checking sources, seeing if you 596 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: can find other people who shared the same video or um, 597 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: if the account that's posted it is even um the 598 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: real person that shared the footage, or if they're just 599 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,320 Speaker 1: re sharing, because if it's just someone re sharing stuff, 600 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: you should always be yeah, on high alert. UM. So 601 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: that's the first thing. And also, UM, I would just 602 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: recommend also following a bunch of people you actually trust, uh, 603 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: fact checkers, people who maybe aren't there, are on the 604 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 1: scene if you want to know, if you really want 605 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: to know about what's happening there. I wouldn't follow random 606 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: people on TikTok, but I would just you know, try 607 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: and find people who are in Ukraine, who are Ukrainian themselves, 608 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 1: who can give you information so you know it's true. 609 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,239 Speaker 1: That's great, that's really useful, I know for myself, Um, 610 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: some of the videos coming out about the treatment of 611 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: black folks in Ukraine. I was very aware of my 612 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: own pressure points and tension points in myself personally, and 613 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: so I really had to be like, obviously, this is 614 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,719 Speaker 1: a this is material that is highly emotionally resonant to me, 615 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: and so it's that what you just said, like that 616 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: is so easily poked at and manipulated, and so I 617 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: really had to have an extra level of like aware 618 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: internal awareness of my own trigger points and my own 619 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: tension points while navigating you know, social media and deciding 620 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: what I wanted to share or amplify. Yeah. Yeah, and 621 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: I've seen this this story also being shared a lot 622 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: on on on Instagram in my own friend groups, because yeah, 623 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: it's a pressure point for a lot of people. It's 624 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: it's it's you know, it should be a pressure point 625 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 1: for a lot of people. And it doesn't mean that 626 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,879 Speaker 1: it's not true obviously what you just said. It's there 627 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: can be really horrible stuff happening, but yeah, people are 628 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: taking advantage of that. It's but it doesn't seem like 629 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: that is registering as misinformation or you know, it's not misinformation, 630 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: but you know that there are other ways than just 631 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: sharing fake videos. It's not just fake videos. You can 632 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 1: use real videos too advance or agenda. And that's something 633 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: that people I don't think really notice as much when 634 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: it's on their own side. My own biases lean more 635 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: towards thinking that most misinformation is really right wing for 636 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,759 Speaker 1: some reason. I don't know why I think that, but 637 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: I just those were my prejudices as that I thought, 638 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: you know, misinformation is trying to get people to you know, 639 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 1: be anti immigration and all that stuff. And I don't 640 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,720 Speaker 1: consider myself right wing, but I've noticed like some videos 641 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: on TikTok where it's Russian accounts that are posting these 642 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: like left wing liberal things with other stuff that's true, 643 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, a criticism of wars that have also happened, 644 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 1: or conflicts that have also happened, where um, they haven't 645 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 1: gotten as much attention as this has has gotten, or 646 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 1: you know, the words that reporters have been using to say, yeah, 647 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: these these people are so relatable and they just like us, 648 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: and h um, you know, real criticism in covering these uh, 649 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: these things. Um, but those things are being spread also 650 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,439 Speaker 1: by Russian accounts, so it's be aware of that. It's 651 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: not new what's happening now, it's not something that you know, 652 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: it's getting I'm really happy that this has brought more 653 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: attention to TikTok and the stuff that's being spread there 654 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: and how fast it's being spread and how easily it's 655 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:31,320 Speaker 1: being spread. Um. But this is getting attention because people 656 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: think it's important. But there's lots of other misinformation that's 657 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: being spread that's you know, not seen as important enough 658 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: to fact check, apparently, because I can see even in 659 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: mainstream media there's a lot of misinformation about trans people, 660 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: which you know, has not gotten nearly as much attention 661 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: as other topics when it comes to fact checking. There's 662 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: just like panic about, oh my god, there's so much 663 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 1: misinformation on social media. Uh, but it's always you know, 664 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: certain topics that are getting fact checked and others that 665 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,279 Speaker 1: are not getting the same amount of information. So fact 666 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: checking is not something that's neutral, uh, which I you know, 667 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 1: some people don't realize maybe because you you choose what 668 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: kind of things you fact check, and I think the Yeah, 669 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 1: I think other topics on TikTok are getting spread with 670 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,240 Speaker 1: just as much misinformation and maybe just as much harm 671 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: that's being done. So I hope that this event and 672 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: the amount of attention that it's getting now that there's 673 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:36,839 Speaker 1: so much misinformation on TikTok is also going to lead 674 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: to more research and more attention on the other forms 675 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: of misinformation that are being spread there. Yeah, I'm so 676 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: glad you added that. When we were talking about roguean, 677 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: it was so interesting to me that it was the 678 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it deserves a lot of attention, but 679 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 1: the COVID misinformation, everyone was like, agreed, no, no good. 680 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: But the misinformation about trans people, you know, that is 681 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: also a medical misinformation that is also a public health issue, 682 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: and that it's so interesting that mainstream people traffic in 683 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 1: in that kind of misinformation. You know, elected officials traffic 684 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 1: in medical misinformation about trans people, and it's somehow we 685 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: don't clock it the same way, and we should be 686 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: questioning why that is and be and sit with that, 687 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: you know, sit with that reality. Yeah. Yeah, got a 688 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: story about an interesting thing in tech or just want 689 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: to say hi. You can reach us at Hello at 690 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,840 Speaker 1: tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's 691 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,319 Speaker 1: episode at tangodi dot com. There Are No Girls on 692 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: the Internet was created by me Bridget tod. It's a 693 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as 694 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Tara Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. 695 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. 696 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: If you want to help us grow, rate and review 697 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, 698 00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever 699 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:06,320 Speaker 1: you get your pot. Got and then I'm half been home, 700 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: and then I'm ha been home with