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Speaker 1: Welcome to the wired to Hunt podcast.

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Speaker 2: This week, on the show, we are doing a deep

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Speaker 2: dive into the big buck lessons of one of the

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Speaker 2: white tailed community's greatest legends, Roger Rothar. He was the

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Speaker 2: influencer of today's whitetail influencers, and today we're going to

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Speaker 2: learn exactly why. All right, welcome back to the wired

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Speaker 2: ton podcast, brought to you by First Light and their

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Speaker 2: Camo for Conservation Initiative. And today we have got a

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Speaker 2: unique episode, an episode that I think and I hope

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Speaker 2: that you are really going to enjoy and something that

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Speaker 2: you're not going to find anywhere else, not this fall

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Speaker 2: on another podcast, not you know, probably over any podcast

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Speaker 2: created anywhere, because we are going to be learning today

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Speaker 2: from somebody who tragically is no longer with us. We

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Speaker 2: are going to be doing a deep dive into the

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Speaker 2: lesson and the big buck hunting, mature whitetail chasing strategies

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Speaker 2: of the one and only Roger Rothar. And if that's

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Speaker 2: a name that you do not recognize, if that's someone

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Speaker 2: you do not know, I want to tell you a

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Speaker 2: little bit about who he is and why you should

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Speaker 2: be paying attention to this Because Roger Rothar is a legend,

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Speaker 2: and he is a legend because he is the guy

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Speaker 2: who taught the guys that we're all paying attention to now,

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Speaker 2: so Don Higgins, Mark Drury, Bill Winky, countless of other

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Speaker 2: folks that we look up to today as experts in

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Speaker 2: our field, as the ogs of whitetail hunting. Their guy,

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Speaker 2: the person that they were all looking up towards when

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Speaker 2: they were growing up and learning about deer hunting.

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Speaker 1: It was Roger Rothar. He was the original, He was

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Speaker 1: the og, as they say, But we don't have the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to learn from him today the way we do

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Speaker 1: from the current folks like Mark and Bill and Don

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Speaker 1: and so many others that have been on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: So I got to thinking, how can we.

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Speaker 2: How can we get into this, How can we kind

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Speaker 2: of digest and consume and learn from this person who

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Speaker 2: had so much to share and who influenced so many

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Speaker 2: other previous generations. Well, fortunate for us, Roger was a writer.

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Speaker 2: He wrote several very well selling and influential books and

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Speaker 2: a number of different articles. And I decided to go

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Speaker 2: find those books myself, read them and share with you

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Speaker 2: what I learned. Pick apart, the most important lessons, the

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Speaker 2: greatest philosophies and strategies and approaches that Roger applied to

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Speaker 2: his hunting in the sixties and seventies and eighties and

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Speaker 2: nineties that led to him being a true pioneer in

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Speaker 2: the white tail hunting world when it comes to targeting

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Speaker 2: mature books. I want to share with you what I

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Speaker 2: learned after going out and finding used This one's actually

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Speaker 2: not used, but from a used bookstore.

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Speaker 1: I had to pay several hundred dollars for these out.

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Speaker 2: Of print old books, but I was able to do it,

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Speaker 2: was able to see exactly why this guy is such

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Speaker 2: a legend. Roger Rothar has a lot to teach all

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Speaker 2: of us, not just about how to kill big bucks,

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Speaker 2: but also about the mindset that we bring to it.

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Speaker 2: So I'm excited to share all of that with you today.

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Speaker 2: This is going to be another just you and Me

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Speaker 2: episode where we're going to dive deep into the pages

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Speaker 2: of these books. I'm going to read you excerpts from

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Speaker 2: Roger's own words of how he taught so many people

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Speaker 2: and how he had success killing mature bucks back before

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Speaker 2: there were podcasts, back before there were a thousand videos

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Speaker 2: teaching you to do this back before there were trail

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Speaker 2: cameras and thermal drones and all this crazy stuff that's

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about today. Before we get to that, though,

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Speaker 2: I want to set the stage and maybe set the

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Speaker 2: you know better, frame this all up for you by

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Speaker 2: bringing in a quick guest, a little surprise appearance here

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Speaker 2: from Don Higgins, because Don is one of those people

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Speaker 2: who I mentioned was seriously influenced by Roger. So I

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Speaker 2: want Don to hop on here briefly for a few

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Speaker 2: minutes to tell us, you know, why and how Roger

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Speaker 2: was so influential on him and so many other hunters

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Speaker 2: back in the seventies and eighties and nineties, and what

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Speaker 2: some of the most important lessons were that Don took

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Speaker 2: from Roger as he was becoming a white tail hunter himself.

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Speaker 2: So real quick, here's Don, all right, Don, So, this

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Speaker 2: name Roger Rothar has come up time and time again

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Speaker 2: for me over the years, from folks like yourself, Mark Drury,

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Speaker 2: Bill Wink, many of kind of our experts today, the

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Speaker 2: influencers today in the whitetail world all seem to have

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Speaker 2: been influenced by Roger Rothar. Why do you think that was?

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Speaker 2: What was it about him? And what he taught that

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Speaker 2: was so impactful. Well, he was ahead of his time.

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Speaker 2: He was super successful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, at the very beginning stages of the mod whitetail craze.

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Speaker 3: I think it all started with a series of articles

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Speaker 3: that he had in Bowhunter magazine, probably the late seventies,

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Speaker 3: maybe nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 1: Somewhere in there.

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Speaker 3: And then he wrote a couple of books, my favorite

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Speaker 3: being Whitetail Magic. I think his first one was titled

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Speaker 3: In Pursuit of Trophy Whitetails. But I liked the Whitetail

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Speaker 3: Magic because he just covered a lot of his hunts

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Speaker 3: for specific bucks in there. But you know, you've got

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Speaker 3: to remember that Roger gained his notoriety at a time

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Speaker 3: where there was no trail cameras, there was no food plots.

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Speaker 3: It was just observation and time in the woods and

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Speaker 3: woodsmanship skills, and he was just dedicated to that. And

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Speaker 3: you know, he a little bit older than a lot

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Speaker 3: of us other guys that were just coming onto the scene.

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Speaker 3: Like when I bet Roger, I was a teenager, I

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Speaker 3: was eighteen nineteen years old, and so he would have

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Speaker 3: been he'd probably been old enough to be my dad. Actually,

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Speaker 3: he would have been, he'd have been old enough to

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Speaker 3: be my dad. So I looked up to him as

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Speaker 3: a mentor, and he just ahead of his game in

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Speaker 3: term of knowledge and success both And that's what kind

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Speaker 3: of set him apart back in the day.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel like some of that, you know, genuine

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Speaker 2: woodsmanship and that you know understanding your quarry, even without

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Speaker 2: trail cameras, without drones, without all of these fancy technological

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Speaker 2: tools we have today, is that missing a little bit?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 2: Could we all benefit from a little bit of that

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Speaker 2: Roger mindset back in our lives?

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Speaker 1: Oh, without a doubt.

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Speaker 3: You know, guys, my age we cut our teeth into

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Speaker 3: the deer hunting woods before that technology. And when that

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Speaker 3: technology came along, it we in combination with the hunting skills,

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Speaker 3: the woodsmanship knowledge that we'd already picked up. And I

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Speaker 3: think today's younger hunter, he's had a super advantage over

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Speaker 3: what I had with the knowledge that's out there. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the Internet has just brought more deer hunting knowledge and

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Speaker 3: opinion to a person's fingertip so than we ever had

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Speaker 3: back in the day. I mean, we was lucky to

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Speaker 3: have North American White Tail, one magazine that came not

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Speaker 3: even once a month. I think it was published eight

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Speaker 3: times a year, and guys like me would read through

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Speaker 3: that in about twenty four hours and we're ready for

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Speaker 3: the next issue. And it might be it was at

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Speaker 3: least a month of not two months before you've seen

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Speaker 3: the next one. And so today's whitetail hunter has a

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Speaker 3: lot more knowledge at their fingertips, way more advanced than

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Speaker 3: I was early in my stages of my hunting career.

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Speaker 1: But at the.

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Speaker 3: Same time, the young hunter today is not gaining that

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Speaker 3: woodsmanship type knowledge that that guys my age picked up, you.

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Speaker 1: Know when we were younger.

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Speaker 3: So I think when you combine the two, there's a

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Speaker 3: and I'm probably in this generation where we had the

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Speaker 3: best of both worlds. You know, we had the Roger Rothars,

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Speaker 3: the Gene Winsils, the Berry Winsils, and then we were

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Speaker 3: yet young enough that we still caught some of the

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Speaker 3: the modern technology phase, if you will, the Internet, the

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Speaker 3: trail cameras, the drones. We benefit from both, and I

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Speaker 3: think today's younger hunter does not benefit from the previous

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Speaker 3: generation the way we do, or we did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So when you look back, if you can think

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Speaker 2: back on those books that you read from Roger and

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Speaker 2: the articles. And I'm not sure if you ever got

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Speaker 2: to see any of the sentin ours or speak with

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Speaker 2: him personally.

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Speaker 1: But what what st.

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Speaker 2: With you now is maybe you know the couple most

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Speaker 2: important deer hunting lessons that you learned from Roger.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there's there's two things that really stick

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Speaker 3: in my mind that I heard from him. And I

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Speaker 3: did meet him in person multiple times, actually spent a

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Speaker 3: week in bear camp in Canada with him in Saskatchewan.

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Speaker 3: Back in I'd have probably been maybe thirty years old,

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Speaker 3: so I was around him to some degree, not near

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Speaker 3: as much as I wish I had been. But there's

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Speaker 3: two things that really stick stood with me through the

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Speaker 3: all this time that I still don't apply today. One

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Speaker 3: of those Roger said that years ago told me that

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Speaker 3: a mature buck will go at least one hundred yards

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Speaker 3: out of his way to go through an open gate

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Speaker 3: or a down spot in the fence rather than jump

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Speaker 3: that fence. And you know, I've used that knowledge on

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Speaker 3: my own farm. It was surrounded by a cattle pasture

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Speaker 3: and had the old cattle fence, and when I got

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Speaker 3: rid of the cattle, one of the first things I

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Speaker 3: did was take the wirecutters and cut some holes in

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Speaker 3: the fence for the deer to funnel through. Basically that

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Speaker 3: that all stem from Roger making that one comment to me,

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Speaker 3: and he made that in person. I remember we was

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Speaker 3: at a Professional bow Hunter Society event in Ohio when

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Speaker 3: he told me this, and so I've always kept that

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Speaker 3: in mind, that a deer, I'm mature buck especially, would

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Speaker 3: go a good little bit out of his way to

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Speaker 3: go through an opening and a fence. Another thing that

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Speaker 3: that stuck with me that he shared years ago was

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Speaker 3: that the biggest bucks in the woods, the most mature deer,

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Speaker 3: the best time to kill them is Thanksgiving weekend. Roger

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Speaker 3: loved Thanksgiving weekend, the tail end of the rut, and

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Speaker 3: that is really stood the test of time with my

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Speaker 3: own hunting, and in fact, there's a period of time

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Speaker 3: it's probably been close to twenty years ago now, but

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Speaker 3: for five consecutive seasons, the biggest buck I seen from

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Speaker 3: a stand each of those five seasons was Thanksgiving weekend.

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Speaker 1: And this would have been back.

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Speaker 3: In the day when I was hunting permission properties before

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Speaker 3: I owned my own farm. I would take the whole

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Speaker 3: month of November off from my job and so I

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Speaker 3: was out there every day, and a lot of times

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Speaker 3: my vacation would start at the end of October, so

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Speaker 3: i'd get the last couple of days of October and

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Speaker 3: then the entire month of November, and I would go

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Speaker 3: back to work, usually the Monday after Thanksgiving. That's how

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Speaker 3: I always set my vacation up. And it was just

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Speaker 3: ironic that I would hunt for an entire month and

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Speaker 3: the best buck I would see would be the last

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Speaker 3: couple of days of my vacation Thanksgiving weekend. And Roger

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Speaker 3: explained it perfectly, you know. He said that the ruts

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Speaker 3: winding down, those big boys know it's just about over

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Speaker 3: for another year, and they're desperately searching for that next

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Speaker 3: hot dough, and they're covering a lot of territory doing that,

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Speaker 3: and they're on their feet in daylight searching, and that's

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Speaker 3: when they become really vulnerable. And I know he killed

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Speaker 3: some of his better bucks during that time frame, and

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Speaker 3: I don't know that I've killed that many during that

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Speaker 3: time frame, but I've definitely seen a lot of giants

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Speaker 3: during that Thanksgiving period. And if it wasn't for Roger

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Speaker 3: driving that point home when I was younger, I probably

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Speaker 3: would not have spent near as much time hunting that

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Speaker 3: time of.

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Speaker 1: The year as I have.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's really important that they, guys, you know,

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Speaker 3: keep the faith, don't give up and lose hope. That

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Speaker 3: Thanksgiving weekend at the end of the rut is a

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Speaker 3: fantastic time to kill the biggest buck in the woods.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny you mentioned that, and it hearkens right

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Speaker 2: back to what I talked about earlier about how today's

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Speaker 2: influencers were influenced by Roger, Because as you just said that,

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Speaker 2: I remembered that I had read an article in North

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Speaker 2: American White Tail that you wrote. I think that's where

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Speaker 2: I heard from you. It was either that or in

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Speaker 2: one of your books. But I remember you saying this

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Speaker 2: exact thing, saying Thanksgiving's a great time, and I remember

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Speaker 2: because of that, I made a return trip to a

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Speaker 2: property I had access to down in southern Ohio right

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Speaker 2: at that time around Thanksgiving, and I remember thinking myself,

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Speaker 2: all right, it can still be darn good for those

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Speaker 2: really old bucks. Stick it out and stay all day.

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Speaker 2: So I hunted in an all day sit on November

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Speaker 2: It was like the twenty fifth or twenty seventh or

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Speaker 2: somewhere in that ballpark, and sure enough, my target buck

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Speaker 2: came out at one o'clock in the afternoon. And so

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Speaker 2: so funny that you told me that, and Roger told

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Speaker 2: you that, the picture perfect example of what we're talking

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Speaker 2: about here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, Mark, one of the things that

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Speaker 3: I appreciate about you is that you give credit and

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Speaker 3: to others when you learn something. I try to do

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Speaker 3: the same, and Roger was very instrumental in my success

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Speaker 3: even today. And I think it's important that you know,

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Speaker 3: we give credit where it's due. We remember, I didn't

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Speaker 3: figure out much on my own. Maybe a little bit,

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Speaker 3: but you know a lot of the knowledge that I

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Speaker 3: have is has come from others, or it's come from

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Speaker 3: mistakes I've made.

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Speaker 1: It's not because I was smart.

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Speaker 3: And I just appreciate that you're willing to give credit

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Speaker 3: where it's due and do this basically this podcast on

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Speaker 3: Roger Rothar, who was definitely one of.

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Speaker 1: My heroes when I was younger.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited for folks to hear this. So before

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Speaker 2: I let you go, I have one additional question that

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Speaker 2: just popped in my mind.

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Speaker 1: If you could leave one.

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Speaker 2: Like, if somebody that's going to listen to this podcast today,

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Speaker 2: if you could leave them with one important thing from Roger,

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Speaker 2: a Roger rotharism, a takeaway. What would that one takeaway

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Speaker 2: be in which you know you would like the listener

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Speaker 2: today to be a little bit more like Roger in

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Speaker 2: the future, or to put this into action in the

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Speaker 2: future that Roger would have said.

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Speaker 1: What would that one takeaway be?

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Speaker 3: Well, if you knew Roger at all, you know that

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Speaker 3: he was opinionated and stubborn, and that I am the

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Speaker 3: same way. I probably I don't know if I got

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Speaker 3: it from him, but you know he talk to anybody

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Speaker 3: knows me, and I'll tell you that I'm pretty opinionated,

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Speaker 3: and I shared my opinion openly. But you know, I

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Speaker 3: think that in today's society, people have become too politically

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Speaker 3: correct that they don't want to offend anyone. And Roger

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Speaker 3: was very outspoken about what he believed in compound bows.

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Speaker 3: His view of compound bow's was probably similar to my

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Speaker 3: view of crossbows, and even in our later conversations. You

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Speaker 3: know my the last book that I wrote, Real World

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Speaker 3: Wide tail Icons, Roger had three chapters in it, yep,

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Speaker 3: and he had a couple of gouges in there that

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Speaker 3: were maybe directed straight to me.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't take any offense, but.

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Speaker 3: And I don't want people to hear this and think

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Speaker 3: I'm anti crossbow. What I just my opinion is that

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Speaker 3: I don't think that crossbow should be in the archery

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Speaker 3: season for able bodied hunters. I definitely don't want to

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Speaker 3: keep anyone out of the woods. And I've had friends,

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Speaker 3: good friends sent on my farm in the same blind

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Speaker 3: with me using a crossbow and I never said a

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Speaker 3: word to him. I think, if it's legal, it's their choice.

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Speaker 3: But you know, Roger stood on what he believed in

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Speaker 3: and he'd made no apologies for it. He didn't look

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Speaker 3: down on me because I shot a compound. He didn't

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Speaker 3: like compounds, but he accepted me as a fellow deer hunter,

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Speaker 3: and you know, I try to be the same way.

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Speaker 3: But I think it's his willingness to stand up for

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Speaker 3: what he believed in and speak out for what he

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Speaker 3: believed in that I hope others take from this, and

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Speaker 3: you know, that whole idea about Thanksgiving weekend. I hope

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Speaker 3: that resonates with people, and I hope it keeps the

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Speaker 3: deer hunters that are listening to this podcast. I hope

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Speaker 3: it keeps them motivated throughout the entire rut. In my opinion,

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Speaker 3: I think a lot lot of guys get really fired

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Speaker 3: up for the peak of the rut November fifteenth, and

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Speaker 3: I think that's the time of the year to kill

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Speaker 3: a giant on purpose. The very beginning of the rut

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Speaker 3: around November seventh is a great time. But then the

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Speaker 3: other great time is that Thanksgiving weekend. And that was

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Speaker 3: something that Roger brought to the deer hunting world all

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Speaker 3: those decades ago. And I just hope people listening to

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Speaker 3: this remember that and they stay motivated throughout the entire

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Speaker 3: month of November in the white tail rut, and they

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Speaker 3: don't get burned out, you know, fifteenth or twentieth of

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Speaker 3: November and think it's over. There's still a really good

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Speaker 3: time coming up towards the end of November, that you

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Speaker 3: got a chance to kill the biggest buck in the woods.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a great point.

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Speaker 2: And back to what you mentioned at the beginning there

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Speaker 2: about his outspokenness and his opinion, his opinionated nature on things.

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Speaker 2: I think one way that came out for me in

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Speaker 2: his books was just how much emphasis he put on

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Speaker 2: the way you do things. It wasn't so much about

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Speaker 2: if you kill the giant buck or if you succeeded

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Speaker 2: with your goal. It was just as important, maybe more important,

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Speaker 2: that you did it in such a way that you

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Speaker 2: you know, did it the right way, or did it

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Speaker 2: in the way that was enjoyable or ethical. He put

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Speaker 2: a huge emphasis on that throughout all of his rating,

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Speaker 2: and that that really stuck out to me too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I mean those that don't know roger hunting with a

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Speaker 3: recurved bow, I think he used an Austenheimer was the

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Speaker 3: brand or the bow maker, the bowyer of his choice.

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Speaker 3: He also invented the snuffer broadhead. The snuffer has been

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Speaker 3: really popular, especially back in the day. I'm not so

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Speaker 3: sure today, but I'm sure it is to some degree

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Speaker 3: with traditional archers. So you know, he had a major

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Speaker 3: impact in a lot of different ways on the modern

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Speaker 3: deer hunting movement, and I just appreciate that he's going

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Speaker 3: to be remembered.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, thank you don for sharing you or your

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Speaker 2: memories here and your perspective. This is this is really helpful,

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Speaker 2: So thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for having me Mark. All right,

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Speaker 1: So great chat. That was, Don. I hope you now

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Speaker 1: have a better sense of just how.

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Speaker 2: Impactful this guy, Roger Rothar was. Now let's get into

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Speaker 2: the material. Let's get into my book reports here. I

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Speaker 2: have gone through these books, taken extensive notes, picked out

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Speaker 2: the most eye opening and important and impactful passages that

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Speaker 2: I could find, the things that I think really frame

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Speaker 2: up Roger's philosophy in many ways. And as I alluded

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Speaker 2: to before Don came on, some of my favorite things

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Speaker 2: about Roger based on these books are not just his

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Speaker 2: you know, x's and o's tactics, but also the approach

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Speaker 2: he took as far as how he thinks about our

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Speaker 2: role as hunters, and how he you know, approaches the

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Speaker 2: pursuit in a way that respects wildlife in the wild

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Speaker 2: places and really what it means to be a hunter.

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Speaker 2: He very much and I mentioned this with Don, he

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Speaker 2: is very much about the how just as much the what.

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Speaker 2: So let's open here with a passage from his book

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Speaker 2: that I think sets that up very nicely. This is

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Speaker 2: an extended one, but going to read it to you

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Speaker 2: here briefly. All right, So Roger says in his book,

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Speaker 2: in Pursuit of Trophy, Whitetails To be sure, very few

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Speaker 2: wild animals can compare to a mature whitetail buck for

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Speaker 2: pure grace and beauty, and his regal bearing attests to

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Speaker 2: the majesty with which he regards his domain in spite

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Speaker 2: of the pressures and challenges thrown against him by man.

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Speaker 2: In nature, he is king, and he shows it. He

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Speaker 2: exudes confidence in his ability to accept those challenges and

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Speaker 2: to win in spite of the odds against him. And

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Speaker 2: he has fitted with a complete set of senses which

379
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Speaker 2: are razor sharp from eons of defensive living, and a

380
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Speaker 2: cunning matched in the animal world world only by those

381
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 2: of the bounty sought predators. He represents the ultimate challenge

382
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Speaker 2: to the trophy hunter, but he is much more than that.

383
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Speaker 2: The fact that he has survived and flourished in territory

384
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Speaker 2: which has been robbed of any sort of wildness by

385
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Speaker 2: the progress of man makes the white tail deer something

386
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Speaker 2: very special. He abounds in many areas undesirable to man

387
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Speaker 2: because of the harsh nature of the land, but so

388
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Speaker 2: have other species of wildlife. What really makes the whitetail

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Speaker 2: so very special is that he survived where the others perished,

390
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Speaker 2: and in so doing he preserved a measure of the

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Speaker 2: wildness now missing from these spoiled lands. As the land

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Speaker 2: is taken over by man and his numbers multiply, the

393
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Speaker 2: situation is soon crowded with too many people in too

394
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Speaker 2: small a space. When this happens, there are many people

395
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Speaker 2: who cannot tolerate the constant pressures put upon them by

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Speaker 2: that kind of lifestyle, yet they are trapped since that

397
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Speaker 2: is their only known way of making a living. However,

398
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 2: many seek periodotic relief from these pressures by escaping for

399
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 2: short periods of time through short vacations into wild areas

400
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 2: on hunting or fishing trips. Often due to limited time

401
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 2: or finances, he can't travel far and is still the

402
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 2: victim of overcrowding in the field or on the stream.

403
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 2: It is at this time that the whitetail gives the

404
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Speaker 2: gift that makes him the most respected and valuable game

405
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Speaker 2: animal in the country. That gift is a touch of

406
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Speaker 2: wildness that the soul of man so desperately needs in

407
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 2: a crowded and controlled world. Pursuit of the other big

408
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Speaker 2: game trophies, such as the sheep and elk, bear, and

409
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 2: moose most often requires an expensive and somewhat involved trip

410
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Speaker 2: into wilderness country, which is the type of environment these

411
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Speaker 2: animals must have to survive. The presence of the whitetail

412
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Speaker 2: makes a wilderness of a ten acre woodlock. For the moment,

413
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Speaker 2: the hunter is free from the sights and sounds of

414
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Speaker 2: civilization all around him, and he's taken back through time

415
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Speaker 2: to that prehistoric age when man was a predator and

416
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Speaker 2: life was as simple as drawing a breath.

417
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Speaker 1: How good is that? And how true is that that

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Speaker 1: the presence of a.

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Speaker 2: White tail can make a wilderness of just a ten

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Speaker 2: acre lot, or heck, even a three acre lot, that

421
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: little bit of woods behind your house, or that little

422
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: brushy draw on the cornfield, or maybe it is the

423
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 2: big wild woods of the North having that white tail

424
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Speaker 2: out there that brings this electricity to it. I know,

425
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Speaker 2: if you have hunted yourself, if you've been out there

426
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 2: with deer, you can relate to that. Whether it's right

427
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 2: behind your house or deep.

428
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Speaker 1: In the wilderness.

429
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 2: Having these deer running around out there just makes everything

430
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 2: so much more, just pulsing with life. And I think

431
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Speaker 2: Roger just absolutely nails it there.

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Speaker 1: So I really like this. I really like the way

433
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Speaker 1: that he.

434
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Speaker 2: Frames everything up and maybe sets the stage with how

435
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 2: important these critters are, and important, how important you know

436
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Speaker 2: our pursuit of them is. I want to give you

437
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Speaker 2: one more example of that here before we get into

438
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 2: some of us nitty gritty thoughts on hunting. This one's

439
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: from Whitetail Magic, his second book in that first one,

440
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 2: in Pursuit of Trophy of White Tails, I believe, was

441
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 2: published in the early eighties. Whitetail Magic was published in

442
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 2: the early nineties. He asked the question what makes a

443
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 2: good deer hunter? Rogers says this, So, what does it

444
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 2: take to be a good deer hunter? Invariably a good

445
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 2: hunter is a good woodsman. Every really good deer hunter

446
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 2: that I've ever known of literally loved the out of doors.

447
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 2: They not only are comfortable and at home in the woods,

448
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: they deeply respect it and find a peacefulness in the

449
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 2: wild that reaches to the soul. They are the people

450
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 2: who spend lots of time in the woods because they

451
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 2: want to, and not because they know they must in

452
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 2: order to kill big deer. The good hunter first and

453
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: foremost wishes to be a part of that environment.

454
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 1: He loves. To do so requires knowledge and understanding not

455
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 1: only of the plants, and animals, but also the wind

456
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: and weather. The more one understands of these things, the

457
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: more he becomes a part of it. To this type

458
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: of person, the killing of an animal is truly the

459
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: harvesting of nature's bounty, and the opportunities to do so

460
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: are granted to him because he deserves them, and later

461
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 1: he continues. But it still takes more than all these

462
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: things covered thus far to make a good deer hunter.

463
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: The key to it all is the word good. The

464
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 2: dictionary definition of the word lists first and foremost morally excellent, righteous, pious. Now,

465
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: in my book, that all boils down to basic honesty.

466
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: A good deer hunter must be honest and truthful to

467
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 2: himself and the game. He must be honest enough to

468
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 2: admit there will be a lot to learn and a

469
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 2: lot of work involved in gaining that knowledge. He must

470
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: be truthful in assessing his own inadequacies in order to

471
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 2: realize which aspects he must improve on. And most of all,

472
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 2: he must be honest with his fellow man and grant

473
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: him his rights. None of the good deer hunters I

474
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 2: have ever known blamed another man's success for his own failures.

475
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 2: Each admitted his own shortcomings and worked to improve them.

476
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 2: That is also traeval athletes who rise to the top,

477
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 2: as well as people who are successful at any endeavor.

478
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: There is a message here, So what really makes a

479
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 2: good deer hunter? Obviously the answer cannot be based purely

480
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: upon the numbers or size of the deer taken. There

481
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 2: are too many variables involved, nor can it depend upon

482
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 2: the amount of time or money spent on the endeavor.

483
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: The answer lies totally and the reason one is hunting.

484
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: Roger nails it there. This is something that has taken

485
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 2: me years and years and years to learn, but Roger

486
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: had written in these pages decades ago. So much of

487
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 2: what comes down to, you know, being a good deer hunter,

488
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: or really you know, enjoying and being satisfied as a

489
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: deer hunter, is why you're getting after in the first place.

490
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 2: If you are trying to be a quote unquote good

491
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: deer hunter just because you want to put a huge

492
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 2: rack on the wall or just because you want to

493
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: impress people on Instagram.

494
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: You are doomed for failure.

495
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 2: But as I hope I can show you through the

496
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 2: rest of this podcast and the words of Roger, if

497
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: you come to the woods, if you come to deer hunting,

498
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: hoping to enjoy the process, hoping to enjoy the animal

499
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: and the landscape and the incredible challenge of trying to

500
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 2: get close enough to one of these animals with a

501
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 2: bow or a firearm and successfully kill mature buck.

502
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: If you are doing it because.

503
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 2: Of that process, if that's your reason, in your why,

504
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 2: you are bound to succeed and be very satisfied and

505
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 2: probably punch a lot of tags too. Roger makes that

506
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 2: point over and over again, and I wanted to make

507
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: sure we lead with that because I think everything else

508
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 2: that follows, everything else that follows, has that is its

509
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 2: fund foundation. So keep that in mind as we continue

510
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 2: down this path. All right, So, I think another thing

511
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: Roger mentioned early on in that passage.

512
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: I think it was actually in the first passage.

513
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: He mentioned that all good deer hunters want to be

514
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 2: in the woods as much as possible, and not just

515
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 2: because they have to be to kill deer, but because

516
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: it calls to them, because it fills them with some

517
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: kind of life force. And this is something that Roger

518
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: emphasizes over and over again, with scouting being one of

519
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: the major ways that comes manifest. If there was anything

520
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: I think that Roger preached more than anything else, and

521
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: something actually that as I did some research on this,

522
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: I found out that he really was one of the

523
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: pioneers of this idea in the hunting world. It was scouting,

524
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: and not just scouting once or twice, but scouting all

525
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: year round. Roger popularized some of the things that we

526
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: are talking about today you know all the time, which is,

527
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: you know, scouting postseason, when the snow melts and when

528
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: you can see stuff before greenup. He then talked about

529
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 2: different kinds of scouting the summer, and then finally he

530
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: talked about in season scouting and how important that was woodsmanship,

531
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: truly knowing the landscape, truly knowing deer behavior, being able

532
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 2: to decipher all of that in the woods.

533
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: He was one of the first to really.

534
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: Share with the public why that's so important and how

535
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,719
Speaker 2: that can lead to deer and it was more important

536
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: than ever back then because again, there's no trail cameras

537
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: to give you that data. There's no deer prediction models

538
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: and apps that tell you when deer should move. He

539
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 2: had to be out there in the field to see it,

540
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: to confirm it, to figure out the timing of all

541
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 2: of it.

542
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: And I think we.

543
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: Would probably all do well to go back to some

544
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 2: of that and to not lean too much on our

545
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: modern scouting technology. If we can bring some of this back,

546
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: if we can bring the Roger Roth techniques and approach

547
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 2: back to our modern day deer hunting, I think we

548
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 2: will all benefit greatly. So I want to read to

549
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 2: you a few different excerpts from Roger about his scouting approaches,

550
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: about his scouting mindset, and specific things that he's looking for.

551
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: So first an excerpt from in Trophy in Pursuit of

552
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 2: trophy white tails. All right, So, in this excerpt, he

553
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: really I think helps us answer the question of why

554
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: why scouting is just so important and why you know,

555
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: looking at scouting as a year round endeavor and maybe

556
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 2: just as important or more important than actually hunting.

557
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: Why that is?

558
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 2: He discusses that here some readers may recall my reference

559
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: to the trophy hunter resigning himself to a lot of

560
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: hunting between shots. This is not to be interpreted to

561
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: mean that the time between shots will be dreary and uneventful.

562
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 2: Quite to the contrary, unless, of course, one considers the

563
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: observing of sub trophy whitetail, deer and other wildlife as

564
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: well as nature's wonders as boring. If that's the case,

565
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: you are definitely involved in the wrong sport. Actually, the

566
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 2: time spent on stand constitutes only a small frack of

567
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 2: the time I spend a field in pursuit of my

568
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: chosen sport. On the overall basis, the ratio would probably

569
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: figure out to something like one to ten or less.

570
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 2: The greater part of my time is spent scouting for signs,

571
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: familiarizing myself with the terrain and wind conditions of my areas,

572
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: and generally becoming acquainted with the dear movement patterns within

573
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: the areas. While doing this, it is important to mentally

574
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: evaluate all these things. Consider all the facts as you

575
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 2: know them from every possible point of view, try to

576
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: compare them to former hunting experiences that might have been similar,

577
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 2: then draw logical conclusions. To do this requires the development

578
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: of an outstanding memory. The facts may be gathered over

579
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 2: a long period of time, but must be stored in

580
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: the memory bank until they fit into the puzzle. I've

581
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 2: had several occasions where a certain aspect of a hunting

582
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: situation just did not quite fit into place. Then, after

583
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: hours or days, in some cases, weeks of pondering the solution,

584
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: it would suddenly hit me when some forgotten fact was remembered.

585
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: Patience is probably one of the most difficult to develop

586
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: forms of mental conditioning, and at the same time one

587
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: of the most important for many hunters. Impatience is the

588
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: product of uncertainty, uncertainty born from improper or incomplete pre

589
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: scouting preparation. As an example, one can imagine how easy

590
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 2: it would be to sit in the same stand day

591
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: in and day out, through good weather and bad for

592
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: weeks if necessary, so long as you are one hundred

593
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: percent certain that sometime during that period you would get

594
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: a good shot at a real trophy buck. On the

595
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: other hand, put yourself in that stand with no positive

596
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: knowledge of the odds of the bucks showing up, or

597
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: worse yet, thinking the odds are against it. The key

598
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: to patience, then is to do whatever is required to

599
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: develop an affirmative confidence attitude. So important scouting equals confidence,

600
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: and confidence kills key key lesson here. If you scout enough,

601
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: you will have the confidence it's necessary to go into

602
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: the field with the right mindset. The mindset that's going

603
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: to keep you focused, it's going to keep you positive.

604
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 2: That's not only going to put you in the right place,

605
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 2: but it's going to put you in the right mindset

606
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: to actually execute on a quality hunt when that opportunity

607
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: finally does come together. It's a really really important thing

608
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 2: here that I appreciate Roger sharing. Here's one more thing

609
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 2: on scouting. Roger writes, the whitetail did not get his

610
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 2: reputation for craftiness by being an easy mark. So long

611
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: as one part time deer hunter pursues one full time deer,

612
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: there will never be any danger of his losing his

613
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: place in the wild. I would have to agree with

614
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 2: the philosophy of the old deer hunter who said deer

615
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: cannot actually think, they only think they can. And so

616
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: it must be understood that in order to do a

617
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: good job of white tail hunting and to rate a

618
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 2: decent chance of collecting a real trophy buck, it's necessary

619
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: to know all you possibly can about him. This means

620
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: hours and hours of fear, either scouting for sign an activity,

621
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: or an actual observation. This scouting must be done all

622
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 2: year round and at every opportunity.

623
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: So I love these two ideas side by side.

624
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 2: This idea that you know as long as one part

625
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: time deer hunter pursues one full time deer, there will

626
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 2: never be any danger.

627
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: Of him disappearing.

628
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: Right, So this idea that you know, this deer is

629
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 2: out there all the time, we are on their terms

630
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 2: when we head into the field. So as long as

631
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 2: we're part time and those deer are full time, it's

632
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: going to be a serious, serious struggle. You are going

633
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,399
Speaker 2: to need to scout and learn and observe and put

634
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 2: lots and lots of pieces together if we're ever going

635
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: to succeed. But at the same time, he also brings

636
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: up the point in that same passage that you know,

637
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: deer can't actually think, they just think they can.

638
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: Right.

639
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: This brings to mind something that my pale Tony says

640
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,319
Speaker 2: a lot, which is that you know, deer just you know,

641
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: mature bucks are just rabbits with antlers. They are not genius,

642
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 2: They are not magical. They are not you know, statisticians

643
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: making calculated, probabilistic decisions about where Hunter is going to

644
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: be and how I'm going to try to kill them.

645
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: They're not doing that kind of thing. So I think

646
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: that they have.

647
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: This incredible set of survival instincts, and as he mentioned,

648
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 2: they're living out their full time so they understand their

649
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: home better than anyone else. That is going to make

650
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 2: our job incredibly challenging. But at the same time, it

651
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 2: is not impossible for us. If we understand the basics,

652
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: if we scout, if we work year round as much

653
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: as we possibly can to immerse ourselves in these settings,

654
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: we can have success. We can intercept these deer. I

655
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: think Roger makes that point over and over and over again.

656
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: Be in the field, scout more, learn more, ask questions,

657
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 2: get out there. Don't rely on your cameras. I think

658
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 2: he would be saying, don't rely on your digital maps.

659
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: I think he would be saying, don't lean too much

660
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: on the deer predictions or whatever somebody tells you on YouTube.

661
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 2: Get out there see it for yourself. That is I

662
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 2: think Roger's first and maybe very most important lesson to

663
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 2: all of us here today. Now, how do we effectively

664
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 2: scout when we're actually out there in the field.

665
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: What do we do? What can we do? How did

666
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: Roger do it?

667
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: One of the most interesting things that I think he

668
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: wrote about in his book here was having the right mindset.

669
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: So when you're actually out there walking through the woods

670
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: looking for sign, Roger brings up a very important thing,

671
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 2: which is you know the questions you ask while you

672
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 2: are taking all this in. So I'm going to read

673
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 2: you another piece here from in pursuit, he writes. While scouting,

674
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 2: first needed is a proper frame of mind which will

675
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 2: gear the senses to alertness and observation and yet allow

676
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: the imagination to wander a bit too. Many hunters regard

677
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 2: scouting as a necessary evil, something to toil at while

678
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 2: they would rather be socializing or glued to the boob tube.

679
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: When such an attitude is present, they may as well

680
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 2: forget the scouting, for most of the time will be wasted.

681
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: Proper scouting technique is an art form of creative reasoning

682
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 2: in which the number one component is imagination. The key

683
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 2: is to combine this imagination with reality to produce an

684
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: experience of total involvement, much like daydreaming. Your legs and

685
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 2: body are merely a vehicle to transport you from place

686
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 2: to place. In this mental condition, one can transpose himself

687
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 2: from the role of hunter to that of the hunted.

688
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 2: It is even possible to develop the ability to be

689
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: both at the same time. I would suppose that is

690
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 2: where the saying thinking like a deer came from the

691
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 2: saying is not very accurate, since you are really trying

692
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: to imagine what a deer would do under certain circumstances

693
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 2: based upon your past observations of deer behavior, rather than

694
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: what he's actually thinking. In this way, the mind can

695
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 2: put the evidence seen and felt into a variety of

696
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 2: situations for analyzation and avoid the common mistake of jumping

697
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 2: to a single minded, usually erroneous conclusion. Imagination, creativity, art.

698
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: I love the fact that Roger uses these words to

699
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 2: describe the mindset we need while scouting. He also I

700
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 2: might read this later. I can't remember if I wrote

701
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 2: this down as something to include here or not, but

702
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 2: Roger makes a point in several of his books to

703
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 2: mention that scouting maybe is best done on your own

704
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: and not with another person, because if you're not with

705
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: another person, you're distracted from connecting these dots. You're just

706
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: simply taking stuff in and talking about it with somebody else,

707
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: but you are not having your imagination and your creativity

708
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: fully engaged. Because this is the key thing that I

709
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 2: think Roger's getting at here in these pages is that

710
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 2: while you're out there, you can't just you know, notice, oh,

711
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 2: there's a rub or oh there's a scrape. You need

712
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 2: to be trying to think what was the deer doing

713
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 2: when he made this sign? Why was he passing through here?

714
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 2: Why was he doing this? What set of circumstances is

715
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: put that deer here? Where did that deer come from?

716
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: Where was that deer going? Why was he here? What

717
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: time was he here? All of these questions require imagination.

718
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,879
Speaker 2: They require you to be fully engaged when you're out there.

719
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: I think that is so important, huge lesson here. Do

720
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 2: not mindlessly scout just to check a box. If you're

721
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 2: going to be scouting, fully get into it, fully take

722
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 2: in what's out there, but then analyze it.

723
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: Answer those questions.

724
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: Always be asking why we're going to get back to

725
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: this more because Roger brings this up over and over

726
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 2: and over again.

727
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 1: So I want to let's see here.

728
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 2: I want to next discuss another aspect of that, one

729
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 2: of these questions that Roger's always asking, which is when

730
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: when he's scouting, He's always trying to answer the question

731
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 2: of when did this happen? How recent was this? Is

732
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 2: this sign from the last rut? Is this sign from

733
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 2: last week? Is this sign from today? So let's get

734
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: into a couple different examples of that. So, in regards

735
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 2: to scouting and understanding the timing, the proper time and

736
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: really putting together, you know how to be in the

737
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 2: right place at the right time based on that scouting.

738
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: Roger says when scouting an area, you must always be

739
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: mindful of the fact that all the knowledge you will

740
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 2: accumulate must eventually be correlated to put you in that

741
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: one particular spot at the right time. This is not

742
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 2: to say there's only one spot where the buck can

743
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 2: be taken, but rather that you can only be one

744
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 2: place at any given time. Therefore, you must try to

745
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 2: match your situation to his. Knowing exactly when the sign

746
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: was made is of the utmost importance if one is

747
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 2: to derive from it a working knowledge of the pattern

748
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 2: of movement and use in the area. The simplest and

749
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: most certain way of knowing is by checking periodically. This

750
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 2: may have to be done daily if conditions warranted. Naturally,

751
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 2: when the hunting's season is in full swing, one cannot

752
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 2: spend all of his time scouting and checking. Therefore, it's

753
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: essential that the hunter becomes so familiar with the activity

754
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: within his area before season that he can quickly spot

755
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: check one or two places to know whether the deer

756
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 2: are present there and what they are doing. Becoming that

757
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: familiar with an area requires a lot of time and observation.

758
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 2: Some regard a casual stroll through a hunting area as

759
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 2: a scouting session. Such a meager effort will hardly allow

760
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 2: one to skin the surface and may well serve to mislead.

761
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: I usually spend at least half a dozen trips of

762
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 2: two to three hours each into a new area before

763
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 2: I really begin to get a true understanding of it.

764
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: After that, the real learning begins. I firmly believe that

765
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 2: it's imperative to hunt a small area well rather than

766
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: to try to cover half a county. So a couple

767
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 2: of really important things there. Number One, scouting out of

768
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: the season so well that you know what's going on,

769
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 2: so that in season when you do continue that scouting,

770
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: you don't need to be scouting every single day, but

771
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: you can achieve with a handful of quick trips, efficient trips,

772
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 2: careful trips of in season scouting. You can just get

773
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 2: updates on what you already knew. You can say, okay,

774
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 2: all this stuff I learned in March and April May,

775
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 2: now I just want to confirm it, or now I

776
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: just want to see if it's turned on again, or

777
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: now I want to see if this changing conditions has

778
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 2: gotten the deer out there. That's a way to combine

779
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: kind of postseason and off season scouting with in season scouting.

780
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: And then I think something Roger mentioned there is interesting,

781
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 2: which is this idea that you know, he would rather,

782
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 2: you know, understand and hunt a small area really well

783
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 2: rather than trying to, you know, hunt a half county

784
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 2: and spread himself thin. So this idea of like an

785
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: inch wide but a mile deep is his approach to

786
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 2: hunting he prefers versus the you know, mile wide inch deep,

787
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: which I think some of us are guilty of today,

788
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: in which we try to have a thought in different

789
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 2: hunting spots and we try to have cameras all over

790
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 2: the place, and we're trying to find that one big

791
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 2: giant buck, and we're kind of bouncing from place to

792
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 2: place to place to place. Roger advocates for a much

793
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 2: more focused approach, and really much of what he preaches

794
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: is about having a deep, intimate understanding of a spot,

795
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 2: of a specific deer, whatever your goal is, really diving

796
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 2: deep versus this kind of scattershot approach that sometimes we

797
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 2: fall prey to these days. So he is recommending a

798
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,360
Speaker 2: few things that you know, we all know today, and

799
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: again he kind of pioneered all this right, the postseason

800
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: scouting being that best time to see what happened during

801
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 2: the run. He talks a lot about getting out there,

802
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: you know, right after the season, or even you know,

803
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 2: if you fill your tag, you know, continuing to scout

804
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: through the hunting season those places so you can see

805
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 2: what's actually happening then after the season, especially if the

806
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 2: snow you know, melts off for you in you know,

807
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: late February or March or April, whenever that is. He

808
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: is a strong advocate of that postseason scouting when you

809
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: can see rut sign As we'll discuss, Roger was a

810
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 2: big rut hunter. He advocates really focusing a lot of

811
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: our time during that pre rot and rot time phase,

812
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: so finding the scrapes, finding the rubs and clearly knowing

813
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 2: when they were made.

814
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: That is key to his approach.

815
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 2: Of course, trails tracks, understanding all that is a particular importance,

816
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 2: but scrapes are huge in Rogers world.

817
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: We're going to get to that.

818
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 2: Finally, something he mentions that I think is worth kind

819
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 2: of keying in on is scouting for wind. We talked

820
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 2: about this with Mark Drury just last week on the podcast.

821
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 2: But Roger in some of his writings has advocated actually

822
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 2: scouting in the off season or in season when you're

823
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: hunting on what wind currents are doing, how thermals impact wind,

824
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 2: and specific locations so that you can eventually have you know,

825
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 2: an understanding of well, well, on this property with a

826
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 2: west wind, it actually goes this way. On this other property,

827
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 2: when you've got a northerly wind, it's actually more like

828
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: a northeast or maybe this hillside impacts wind in a

829
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 2: certain way. You know, those types of ideas have continued today.

830
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 2: For example, I remember Neil and Craig Doherty frequently writing

831
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: in their books and work about the idea of building

832
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 2: a wind map, so actually going out and testing the

833
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 2: wind throughout the year in your key hunting locations, so

834
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 2: you know, okay, you know exactly what I said, but

835
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: actually putting it on a map, so when you look

836
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 2: at the map you can see, okay, from this stand

837
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: with a west wind, it actually does this thing or

838
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 2: that thing. That is very important stuff to have that

839
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 2: goes back down to this like deep intimate understanding of

840
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 2: your property in a way that can really impact your hunts.

841
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I had this exact thing happened to me

842
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 2: just the other day where I had this realization that, oh, wow,

843
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 2: the wind here when it said that it's a north wind,

844
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 2: it actually is more of a northwest wind in reality.

845
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 2: And I took note of that during the hunt, and

846
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: I filed it away in my memory banks saying, hey,

847
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 2: in the future, you need to remember, if you want

848
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: to hunt this particular place, if it says north wind,

849
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 2: you should just assume it's going to be more westerly.

850
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 2: Because now, time after time I've been to this zone

851
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 2: thinking it would be a north wind and instead I

852
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 2: get this westerly push. I can't explain why, but it

853
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 2: just happens. So I am going to now, you know,

854
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 2: better be prepared. I will be better prepared for future hunts.

855
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: And really, I wish I had figured this out years ago.

856
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 2: Would have saved me a number of frustrating sits and

857
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: educated deer. Another thing that Roger mentions in some of

858
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 2: his writings about his scouting is the fact that he

859
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 2: likes to, you know, be repetitious with his scouting and

860
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: continues it in the off season right on through the season,

861
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: and talks about that even in season. He actually does

862
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 2: not mind deer smelling his tracks because he wants those

863
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 2: deer to get used to his presence. He specifies, he

864
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 2: doesn't want this to happen in those places where bucks

865
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: feel most secure, but if these deer can get used

866
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 2: to him, you know, semi frequently coming in and checking

867
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 2: out certain areas, checking out a scrape location, checking a

868
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 2: trail on these like semi secure but not you know,

869
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 2: actual betting years, that's a good thing for him because

870
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: these deer will eventually become some condition to his consistent

871
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 2: light presence in the area as he's scouting and observing,

872
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,919
Speaker 2: and then eventually when he goes there to hunt, it's

873
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 2: nothing new. They're used to this, and this echoes, you know,

874
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 2: stuff that we're hearing today from people like Lee Lakowski

875
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 2: or doctor Grant Woods in which they talk about how

876
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: their consistent presence on their farms, checking trail cameras or

877
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: doing habitat work or whatever it might be, they're doing

878
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 2: that in such a way on a consistent bait, on

879
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,320
Speaker 2: a consistent basis on purpose for the exact same reasons

880
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 2: that Roger was. They were conditioning deer to what a

881
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: certain level of human activity will look like. That these

882
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 2: deer become used to, and then as a hunter, you

883
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 2: can take advantage of that because as long as what

884
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 2: you do during hunting season seems close to what they

885
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,279
Speaker 2: are used to you doing all year round, deer aren't

886
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 2: going to freak out about it. This is something that

887
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 2: you know you can see in the suburbs right or

888
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 2: in a city park or something. Deer get used to

889
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 2: people doing certain things. As long as you stick to

890
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 2: that certain thing, or at least it looks like you're

891
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: sticking to that certain thing, we'll give you the free pass.

892
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 2: But as soon as something changes, when that happens, and

893
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden, red flags start popping up.

894
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 2: So Roger I think part of why he was preaching

895
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 2: this year round scouting, even in season, was that deer

896
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 2: will get used to a certain amount of it and

897
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 2: you can take advantage of that. So interesting point. Another

898
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 2: scouting factor that he was really looking at where tracks.

899
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 2: This is pre trial cameras, so tracks told a lot.

900
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 2: That was how Roger was identifying specific bucks. That's how

901
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 2: he was identifying if mature buck was in the area,

902
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 2: and he gives some very concrete information here about how

903
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,439
Speaker 2: to identify a mature buck track. I want to read

904
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 2: you this very very helpful, and I think something that

905
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 2: all of us can keep in our back pocket.

906
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 1: He writes here about tracks, the.

907
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: Size alone is usually enough to separate the big bucks

908
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 2: tracks from those of other deer in the area. Any

909
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: clearly defined track over three inches long may be accepted

910
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 2: as trophy material and will warrant further observation to qualify

911
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 2: the rack carried by their maker as trophy class. Careful

912
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 2: inspection of such tracks is necessary because in a normal walk,

913
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 2: the hind foot will often be placed directly upon the

914
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 2: front track and may make it appear much larger than

915
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 2: it actually is. We hear frequently of tracks the size

916
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 2: of a Shetland pony. The largest I've ever measured were

917
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 2: tracks three and seven eighths in which is long, and

918
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 2: this buck ended up weighing three hundred and twenty four pounds.

919
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,320
Speaker 2: The age and conditions of the buck can be estimated

920
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:08,439
Speaker 2: by the condition of the.

921
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: Tracks he makes.

922
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 2: An older buck gets knock kneed and his front feet

923
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: turn out his hooves will be worn rounded on the front,

924
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 2: and the track will be flat. A younger buck walks

925
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 2: on the tips of his toes. More, a buck in

926
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: his prime will walk sprightly enough so that his hind

927
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 2: feet will reach his front tracks, and older bucks hind

928
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: feet will fall short of his front tracks as he walks. Okay,

929
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 2: few thinks here any clearly defined track over three inches

930
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: long maybe accepted as trophy material.

931
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: So three inches or longer was one of the key things.

932
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 2: The biggest track he ever saw from a three hundred

933
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,439
Speaker 2: and twenty four pound buck was about a four inch

934
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: long track.

935
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: All right, take note of that.

936
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 2: Another thing here, an older buck will have his front

937
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 2: feet turn out, so if you see tracks where the

938
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: front track is turned out, that might indicate a mature buck.

939
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 2: He also mentions that an older buck will have a

940
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: rounded fronts and that the tracks will be flat. The

941
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: way I interpret that is kind of what we talk

942
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,319
Speaker 2: about when we talk about identifying mature bucks, and that

943
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 2: you will see the full track as well as the

944
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 2: dew clause behind it, like that fully pressed in track,

945
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 2: while with a younger buck you often do not see

946
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 2: the dew clause pressed in because, as Roger says, they're

947
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 2: kind of more upright. I think that's really interesting. And

948
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 2: then to mention, he says that a younger buck, a

949
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: buck in his prime, will walk so spry that his

950
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 2: hind feet will reach all the way to his front track,

951
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,439
Speaker 2: so you can see a backtrack and a front track

952
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 2: almost lined up, while with an older buck, his hind

953
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: feet will fall short of his front tracks as he walks.

954
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 2: So some interesting observations there to keep in mind as

955
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 2: you pay attention to tracks which Roger advocates for, which

956
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: Rogers constantly doing throughout his stories in his book Whitetail Magic.

957
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 2: This is mostly a set of stories, and in many

958
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 2: of those stories you will see that the way that

959
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 2: he found the buck he's gonna hunt was by identifying

960
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:14,120
Speaker 2: a big track, and then he would come back time

961
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 2: and time again and see did those did those big

962
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 2: unique tracks show up on the trail again or were

963
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 2: they pressed into the scrape again? And that's how he

964
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 2: would be able to determine if these bucks were back

965
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 2: in the area, if these bucks were frequenting them, whether

966
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 2: or not he should start hunting aggressively. Tracks a big

967
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 2: deal then still big deal today. Trail cameras of course,

968
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 2: we lean on so much, but they only show you

969
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: a very small slice of what's going on out there.

970
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 2: I think more and more of us are coming to

971
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 2: find that we might be depending on them too much.

972
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 2: They show us a tiny window, when actually what's going

973
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:51,240
Speaker 2: on out there is so much wider.

974
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: Tracks can help fill in that picture.

975
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,240
Speaker 2: So I think cameras can be part of a wide

976
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:59,720
Speaker 2: swath of scouting intel, they should not be the entirety

977
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 2: of it. So in addition to cameras that in season

978
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,240
Speaker 2: scouting on the ground it's going to be very important.

979
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 2: Tracks are a part of what Roger advocates looking for.

980
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 2: He also, probably more than anything else, advocates for scouting

981
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: for scrapes. He spends a lot of time talking about scrapes.

982
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 2: This was his big unlock. He describes this as really

983
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 2: being the key that led to him going from just

984
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 2: killing deer to killing consistently big mature bucks. When he

985
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 2: figured out how deer use scrapes, how they visit them,

986
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 2: and how he can set up on them. That was

987
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 2: probably his big Aha moment. And he describes what you

988
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: should be looking for and how to identify three different

989
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 2: kinds of scrapes. And I want to cover some of

990
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: those now. First off, let's read a little bit here

991
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 2: about why they are important to him.

992
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,800
Speaker 1: He writes, the real key.

993
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 2: To hunting the big bucks is to locate their scrape areas.

994
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: There's an old buck hunting a dodge that states, you

995
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 2: find fresh tracks, you know where deer has recently been,

996
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 2: you find fresh rubs, you know where a buck has

997
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 2: recently been. But when you find a fresh scrape, you

998
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,919
Speaker 2: know where a buck is soon going to be. While

999
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 2: this statement may not be of one, may not be

1000
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 2: one hundred percent true, it does provide the very best

1001
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 2: odds possible for assurance of a shot at the buck

1002
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 2: of your choice. All right, So he views scrapes and

1003
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 2: as we'll get to a certain kind of scrape as

1004
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 2: the number one way to assure yourself of opportunities at

1005
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:29,479
Speaker 2: a mature buck.

1006
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: As we get into.

1007
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,399
Speaker 2: There will be three different kinds of scrapes that we're

1008
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: going to talk about, boundary scrapes, secondary scrapes, and primary scrapes.

1009
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 2: And much of what I will read you here about

1010
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 2: scrapes will echo other hunters today. Especially I can see

1011
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 2: the work of John Eberhart likely having been influenced by

1012
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 2: Roger because much of what Roger wrote about here in

1013
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,839
Speaker 2: the seventies and eighties, John has taken into the two

1014
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 2: thousands and applied to his hunt situations. Some of the

1015
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 2: verbiage is a little bit different in some of the specifics,

1016
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 2: but I can definitely see echoes of that which I

1017
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 2: find really interesting, especially the whole primary scrape thing. So

1018
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 2: let's read here a little bit about you know how

1019
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 2: to identify what a boundary scrape is, what a secondary

1020
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 2: scrape is, and what a primary scrape is, what those

1021
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,799
Speaker 2: things mean, and you know how to think about that

1022
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,319
Speaker 2: as you were scouting and then later hunting them. So first,

1023
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,359
Speaker 2: how do we id these? We'll read another quick excerpt.

1024
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: All right, boundary scrapes. These scrapes are the earliest found

1025
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 2: and are exactly what the name implies. They will be

1026
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 2: found along the edges of woodcover, as well as along fence,

1027
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 2: rows and creeks where limbs or branches hang low enough

1028
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 2: to be reached by antlers. They indicate that there is

1029
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 2: a young buck in the area, but are of little

1030
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 2: more present use than that. Most will be made then

1031
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 2: completely neglected, while new ones are made nearby with the

1032
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 2: same eventual fate. Beginning scrape hunters very often find and

1033
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 2: try to hunt these boundary scrapes because they are the

1034
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 2: most easily found. Usually they are disappointed. So these are

1035
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 2: the scrapes that you know, we have talked about for

1036
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 2: years on this podcast, that show up on field edges,

1037
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 2: that show up in open timber.

1038
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:17,280
Speaker 1: These are also the scrapes.

1039
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 2: That many new scrape hunters, many new hunters, as Roger said,

1040
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:23,479
Speaker 2: they'd go and try to hunt these scrapes and don't

1041
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 2: see anything, or they just see a young buck. And

1042
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 2: that's because what we have found. Roger mentioned that these

1043
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 2: are mostly made by young bucks. That may be true,

1044
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 2: but also what recent findings have shown is that those

1045
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 2: kinds of scrapes are mostly made and visited after dark,

1046
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 2: so they are not too terribly useful for us as hunters.

1047
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 2: The second kind of scrape would be the secondary scrape,

1048
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 2: and these are the scrapes that Roger describes as being

1049
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 2: one layer back. These are the scrapes that are made

1050
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 2: on trails but are back into the cover a little bit.

1051
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 2: He mentions in pursuit of trophy white tails that you

1052
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 2: can have some success on them, especially for younger to

1053
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 2: middle aged bucks, but this is not the key thing.

1054
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 2: He is focusing on the one thing he does mention

1055
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 2: about secondary scrapes that they might be important for, in

1056
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 2: particulars for those of us who are hunting mature bucks.

1057
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 2: He says that a secondary scrape can serve as a thermometer,

1058
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 2: and I want to read to you exactly what he

1059
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 2: means by that. He says, locating and reading the secondary

1060
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 2: scrapes has a far more important function in the taking

1061
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 2: of a trophy buck than that of actually hunting them.

1062
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 2: It is the thermometer of the rut and will give

1063
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 2: the clues necessary to predicting the exact time of the

1064
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 2: peak rout period. To come to do this, one must

1065
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 2: locate several secondary scrapes in different areas. The more the better,

1066
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 2: But the hunter must govern his time so as not

1067
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 2: to spread himself too thin and not be able to

1068
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 2: keep almost daily track of these scrapes. If he has

1069
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 2: done ample scouting early, he'll be able to check an

1070
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 2: area quickly by examining a few key spots in the

1071
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 2: area to determine the deer usage and how often the

1072
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 2: scrapes are normally being hit. As the activity picks up

1073
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 2: on these scrapes, usually in late October, it will generally

1074
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 2: be evident in all areas simultaneously. So, in other words,

1075
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,439
Speaker 2: he recommends scouting in the off season to find where

1076
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 2: these back in the cover scrapes might be, having a

1077
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: full understanding of where those spots are, and then in

1078
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 2: season doing a semi regular check of those secondary scrape

1079
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 2: locations throughout the season until all of a sudden, all

1080
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 2: at once, those handful of spots that you've chosen to

1081
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 2: be your checkpoints, when those all of a sudden blow up,

1082
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 2: now you can confirm, oh.

1083
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the rut is about to start popping.

1084
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 2: That was kind of his way of gauging the heat factor,

1085
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 2: the the testosterone rise. As soon as the secondary scrapes

1086
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 2: really start blowing up, Now it's go time. It's time

1087
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 2: to focus on being out there in the field, more

1088
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 2: time to get into my best spots and as we

1089
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 2: will get to, time to start hunting primary scrape areas.

1090
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 2: So an important thing if you find these next level

1091
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 2: back in the cover scrapes, identify those as those secondary spots,

1092
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 2: keep tabs on them.

1093
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: Now.

1094
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 2: Of course, we do have cameras now, and that can

1095
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 2: give us another glimpse into what's happening on these scrape locations.

1096
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 2: So maybe we don't need to go check all of

1097
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,439
Speaker 2: them in person, as he recommends. Maybe we can put

1098
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: cameras on those scrapes to keep tabs on things. And

1099
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 2: as soon as we start seeing those cameras light up,

1100
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 2: all right, it's go time. I think a lot of

1101
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 2: people are already doing this. It's really interesting that what

1102
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 2: we are doing today with cameras mirror is what Roger

1103
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 2: was saying that we should do on foot. There might

1104
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,440
Speaker 2: be something to be said though, about doing more of

1105
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 2: us in person and seeing it on the ground and

1106
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 2: getting more than just that little snapshot of the scrape,

1107
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 2: but actually seeing all the sign around it as well too. Now,

1108
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 2: primary scrapes, this is the big one. This is what

1109
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 2: Roger keys in on. This is what he says was

1110
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 2: the big unlock for him when he realized what a

1111
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 2: primary scrape area was, why they were made, how they

1112
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 2: were made, and how to hunt them. So I want

1113
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 2: to read to you what you know what Roger was

1114
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 2: meaning when he describes this, and then some more about

1115
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 2: you know, how we can take action on this. The

1116
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 2: primary rut scrapes greatly resemble secondary scrapes and looks in

1117
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 2: size and sometimes even in location. However, whereas the secondary

1118
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 2: scrapes were placed on active deer trails, the primary scrapes

1119
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 2: are strategically placed and then the trails are made to them.

1120
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 2: This is evident by the several obvious trails converging on them.

1121
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 2: Once such a breeding area is located and the primary

1122
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 2: scrape spotted, that bowhunter will never have a better opportunity

1123
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 2: for taking a real trophy buck. So the key thing here,

1124
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 2: and he mentions this in a number of different places.

1125
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 2: Primary scrapes are located in a strategic location back in

1126
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 2: what he calls a betting area, and then they become

1127
01:00:56,200 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 2: the hub of the wheel. So we'll get to this.

1128
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 1: I think there's an example here where.

1129
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 2: He describes some of these spots. But what I think

1130
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 2: he's referring to in a lot of these writings is

1131
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 2: nasty thick cover, i e. Doll betting airs. These dough

1132
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 2: betting airs are places where much of the running activity

1133
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 2: that we see today happens. It's where a lot of

1134
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 2: us focus our efforts. It's where a lot of these

1135
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 2: bucks focus their efforts, and because of that, you tend

1136
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 2: to get these big primary scrape areas.

1137
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: Again, back to John Iberhart, he talks.

1138
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 2: About primary scrape areas which are just like what Roger's

1139
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 2: describing here back in thick cover and their hubs of

1140
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:37,200
Speaker 2: a wheel where you'll see, like imagine a thermal hub,

1141
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 2: like a low spot with a bunch of points dropping

1142
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 2: down into it.

1143
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: How many of us have found somewhere like that?

1144
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 2: And then there's a huge scrape down the bottom, all

1145
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 2: sorts of trails leading into it, multiple scrapes, multiple spots

1146
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 2: all around that big like car hood size scrape. That's

1147
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 2: a primary scrape. That's what John Eberhart loves. That's what

1148
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 2: Roger Rothar loves. These are the types of scrapes that

1149
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 2: do seem to be, you know, worth hunting.

1150
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 1: Still today, a.

1151
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 2: Lot of people talk about it, and Roger absolutely discussed

1152
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 2: that as well. Continuing on, Roger says this, when scouting

1153
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 2: for primary scrapes, eventually we will discover small areas that

1154
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 2: are literally torn to pieces with trails and scrapes. Usually

1155
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 2: these spots will be on a ridge top or flat

1156
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 2: in hilly areas, or in thickets of second growth or

1157
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 2: crab apples, hawthorn or scrub pinoak in more level country.

1158
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 2: In farm country, I find them in small dozed in

1159
01:02:29,080 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 2: woodlots left standing in the middle of large fields, as

1160
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 2: well as the few remaining swamp thickets along creek bottoms. However,

1161
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:39,200
Speaker 2: type of cover seems to be less important than strategic

1162
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 2: location to the placing of primary scrapes. So again, I

1163
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,000
Speaker 2: think the point here is that these primary scrapes are

1164
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 2: located in strategic spots that have a convergence of deer activity,

1165
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 2: in particular dose, where those dough hot spots are where

1166
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 2: a lot of travel all of a sudden converges on them,

1167
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 2: you tend to find these primary The primary scrapes are

1168
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 2: these mega scrapes that are like a hub with multiple

1169
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 2: trails and travel corridors and like signs, all kind of

1170
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 2: converging in that zone, in that thick, nasty bedding cover.

1171
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 2: If you find that, you've got what Roger would call

1172
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 2: a primary scrape area and your best chance to kill

1173
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:23,520
Speaker 2: a mature buck. So let's move from there. I feel

1174
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 2: like that kind of covers some of the high level

1175
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 2: scraping ideas. Let's move to some of his actual hunting ideas. Now,

1176
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 2: a key point here is in Roger's mind, he probably

1177
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 2: would say that there's no difference between the two he

1178
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 2: would probably tell you that the scouting elements that we

1179
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 2: just talked about are just as much hunting as actually,

1180
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 2: you know, sitting in the field with your bow. So

1181
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 2: maybe I shouldn't have even split this thing up into

1182
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 2: two sections at all, because maybe the biggest lesson of

1183
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 2: all from Roger is that scouting, learning, observing, having that

1184
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 2: free flowing imagination while you're out there in the field

1185
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 2: and trying to connect the dots that is hunting. That

1186
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 2: maybe is Roger's greatest message. But we'll continue into some

1187
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 2: more here, and actually before we move on to the

1188
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 2: hunting side, I do have one more passage here from

1189
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 2: him that I think, maybe even more eloquently sums up

1190
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 2: what I just try to describe to you. He writes this,

1191
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 2: I think most hunters know that there's value in scouting

1192
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 2: ahead of the hunt, and if you even know how

1193
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 2: important it really is, very few realize the importance of

1194
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 2: year round scouting beyond that of detecting deer sign. I'm

1195
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 2: referring to the advantage gained by feeling you are a

1196
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 2: part of the environment.

1197
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 1: I know that when.

1198
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 2: I've been unable to get into the woods for several weeks,

1199
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 2: I feel like a stranger when I finally get out again.

1200
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 2: Continuous contact with nature has a way of enveloping one

1201
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 2: until you finally become part of it. You get to

1202
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 2: know trees on a first named basis as good old friends,

1203
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 2: and I find myself mentally talking to them. Sometimes they answer,

1204
01:04:57,880 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 2: I feel sorry for those who must be slaves to

1205
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 2: all the supposed advantages of modern technology to convince themselves

1206
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 2: their bowhunters.

1207
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 1: It's sort of like they're.

1208
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 2: Sitting in a room of scientific paraphernalia shooting through an

1209
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 2: open window into a wilderness.

1210
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 1: They're trying to make.

1211
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 2: The natural order of things conformed to their philosophies, philosophies

1212
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 2: which were incidentally formed by equipment manufacturers and salesmen, rather

1213
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 2: than common sense, understanding and conscious.

1214
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 1: At any rate, perhaps.

1215
01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 2: Many of the readers of this will understand why I

1216
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 2: am so hard to get in touch with so much

1217
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:36,520
Speaker 2: of the time, why so many letters go unanswered and

1218
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 2: articles and books remain unwritten. It also explains why I

1219
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 2: wear out a complete set of Camo each year, and

1220
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 2: why hunting boots designed to last ten years seldom make

1221
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 2: it more than halfway through their second year of use.

1222
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 2: It might even explain some of the trophy racks hanging

1223
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 2: on my wall.

1224
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 1: How good is that?

1225
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 2: I think that just absolutely nails it so as far

1226
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:09,360
Speaker 2: as hunting. Right back to that message right there, he

1227
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 2: talks about the importance of being in the field, having

1228
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 2: this deep, thorough understanding of your environment, of your corey.

1229
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 2: I mean scouting the off season. That means being in

1230
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 2: the field a lot in order to see what's happening,

1231
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 2: in order to let serendipity happen to you as well.

1232
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 2: I want to redo something here where he echoes that sentiment.

1233
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 2: Thorough knowledge and understanding will not make the taking of

1234
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 2: a trophy white tail easy. It will merely make it possible.

1235
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 2: Several cardinal rules must be strictly adhered to in order

1236
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 2: to fully make use of this accumulated knowledge. The first

1237
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 2: of these, and probably the most important, is the necessity

1238
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 2: to spend as much time as possible in the field.

1239
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:54,040
Speaker 2: This may mean missing favorite programs on the boob tube

1240
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 2: or a meal now and then. A drenched or frozen

1241
01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 2: tail is also commonplace, but the of success are compounded

1242
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 2: in your favor with each extra moment you sacrifice. In effect,

1243
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 2: you must hunt him at his convenience, not at yours.

1244
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 2: Let me read that again, you must hunt him at

1245
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 2: his convenience, not at yours. Roger's a legend for a reason.

1246
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 2: I think sentences like that, I think, you know, thoughts

1247
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 2: like what I've just read to you here in the

1248
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 2: last couple of minutes truly illustrate the wisdom that he

1249
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 2: is sharing here and that we can that we can

1250
01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 2: learn from. So much of today's modern deer hunting culture

1251
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 2: and approach tends to be about making it convenient. Again,

1252
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:43,600
Speaker 2: it tends to be about minimizing the time you have

1253
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 2: to spend the field. It tends to be about how

1254
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 2: to you know, watch from afar and then go in

1255
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 2: and strike, you know, one time, and have this big

1256
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 2: giant buck on your wall, or to post a picture

1257
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 2: of him. And I have been guilty of talking about

1258
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 2: all of these things myself, but I think Roger's point

1259
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:03,439
Speaker 2: here is a really good one. It's that being out

1260
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 2: there in the elements, at the whims of this natural

1261
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:10,320
Speaker 2: world not only will lead to more success than the field,

1262
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:13,800
Speaker 2: but also lead to a better experience, which is what

1263
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:17,720
Speaker 2: this whole thing is supposed to be about. Amazing so

1264
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 2: scrapes when it comes to hunting. Roger really spends a

1265
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:24,760
Speaker 2: lot of time on setting up on scrapes. As I

1266
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, primary scrapes were his big unlock. Of course,

1267
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:31,639
Speaker 2: there's other ways that he hunts too. There are stories

1268
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 2: in Whitetail Magic and some ideas in this one in

1269
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 2: which he discusses the importance of hunting inside corners. He

1270
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 2: discusses the importance of hunting certain food sources and trails,

1271
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 2: but really much of his success stems around primary scrape areas.

1272
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 2: Sometimes he specifically has a scrape that is like what

1273
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,120
Speaker 2: he's hunting. Other times it is a zone which I

1274
01:08:57,200 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 2: think now we would just call it a dough betting area.

1275
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 2: He is keying in on and being downwind of that

1276
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:06,720
Speaker 2: and having his success. So I think we should cover

1277
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 2: a few of those specifics here.

1278
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:09,839
Speaker 1: First.

1279
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 2: I want to talk about how he sets up on

1280
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,879
Speaker 2: his stand spots, or how he sets up on scrapes,

1281
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 2: how he picks a place to hunt once he finds

1282
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:21,719
Speaker 2: one of these dough betting areas or primary scrape areas.

1283
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:25,919
Speaker 2: There's a pretty good example here in his in Pursuit.

1284
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 2: All right, so this is once he found once he

1285
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 2: scouted and found his primary scrape ereer. He says in

1286
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 2: picking My stand spot. I prefer not to sit directly

1287
01:09:35,439 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 2: over a scrape, instead a tree some yards away that

1288
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,120
Speaker 2: will allow me to catch the buck as he approaches

1289
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:44,680
Speaker 2: it is chosen. My goal is to again use his

1290
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 2: cautiousness against him, since he will likely be approaching with

1291
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 2: great care and with his attention focused upon the scrape.

1292
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 2: Such a position, if properly selected, should also put me

1293
01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 2: out of the scent stream of air passing through the

1294
01:09:57,680 --> 01:09:59,960
Speaker 2: scrape which he is going to be using to check it.

1295
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 2: This places me properly for the kill, and yet will

1296
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 2: allow me to let all sub trophy deer pass without

1297
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:11,839
Speaker 2: detecting me. I find that the really productive primary scrapes

1298
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 2: of the breeding areas are usually so located that air

1299
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 2: movement and terrain are a definite disadvantage to the hunter.

1300
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:22,440
Speaker 2: Such strategic placement of the scrapes evolved through the successful

1301
01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 2: use and acceptance by generations of wise old bucks. They

1302
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:30,200
Speaker 2: must be very carefully scouted, studied, and analyzed in order

1303
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:31,400
Speaker 2: to be used successfully.

1304
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:32,760
Speaker 1: Habitually.

1305
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 2: They'll be located in second growth areas where trees are

1306
01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 2: too small for good trees stand support, yet dense enough

1307
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 2: to provide cover.

1308
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:43,720
Speaker 1: I'm gonna move through a few of these specifics.

1309
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:47,120
Speaker 2: He mentions that multiple trunks and motionless standing works best

1310
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,040
Speaker 2: for these. A clear small stepping spot so there will

1311
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 2: be no twigs or leaves in the ground to foil

1312
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 2: quiet movement.

1313
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:55,679
Speaker 1: To my stand, I'm very.

1314
01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 2: Careful to make as little disturbance as possible when climbing

1315
01:10:58,200 --> 01:10:58,639
Speaker 2: into it.

1316
01:10:59,240 --> 01:10:59,400
Speaker 1: All.

1317
01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 2: This is very important because of the strong possibility of

1318
01:11:02,320 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 2: a buck being very close when dealing with the old

1319
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 2: world wise bucks, you are only allowed to make one mistake,

1320
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:10,679
Speaker 2: you are not likely to get a chance to make

1321
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 2: a second. I mentioned earlier how older bucks become hesitant

1322
01:11:15,240 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 2: to come completely into a scrape after younger bucks have

1323
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 2: started using it. This also applies to primary scrapes in

1324
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:23,920
Speaker 2: the breeding area. After one of these scrapes has been

1325
01:11:23,960 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 2: active for several days, I start looking for a secondary

1326
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:28,840
Speaker 2: route he might be using to scent check it for

1327
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 2: dough smell. It will usually be the safest, most discrete

1328
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 2: approach possible to the prevailing downwind side of the scrape.

1329
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:38,960
Speaker 2: In so doing, he will eventually create his own travel

1330
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:42,760
Speaker 2: pattern throughout the breeding area. Unraveling this pattern is the

1331
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 2: real key to taking the buck. So to echo some

1332
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 2: of the scouting into their primary scrapes are in these

1333
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 2: dough betting areas, these thickets, these nasty spots strategically located

1334
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:58,400
Speaker 2: where there's a convergence of deer travel and a convergence

1335
01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 2: of scent, especially to or in the rut. I think

1336
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:04,479
Speaker 2: his big finding here was that sometimes, if you were

1337
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:07,400
Speaker 2: trying to kill the big mature buck, setting up right

1338
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:10,080
Speaker 2: in the scrape is not the best approach, but rather

1339
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 2: to be downwind of that scrape. This is something that

1340
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,920
Speaker 2: we've heard people like not just John Eberhart, but Dan

1341
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:20,120
Speaker 2: in Fault talk about about how mature bucks oftentimes will jayhook.

1342
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:21,240
Speaker 1: I think maybe even the.

1343
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 2: Tequistos have talked about this. They will jayhook through betting years.

1344
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 2: They will jayhook when checking scrapes. Again, it comes down

1345
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,040
Speaker 2: to scent. They want to scent check this stuff. They

1346
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 2: don't always want to walk right into it and right

1347
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:34,640
Speaker 2: through it. Sometimes they can simply walk downwind of it

1348
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 2: and learn everything that they need to know. Rogers saw this,

1349
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:40,840
Speaker 2: and because of that, he started setting up further and

1350
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 2: further on the downwind side of these features to put

1351
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 2: himself in a position to observe, but then have that

1352
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 2: buck still be upwind of him.

1353
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:52,040
Speaker 1: When they did come through. That's a pretty key thing.

1354
01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:57,719
Speaker 2: Here's another example, So this one he's talking about how

1355
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:00,679
Speaker 2: different age class bucks seem to relate to these scrapes.

1356
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 2: This is pretty interesting. I found that up through the

1357
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 2: age class of three and a half years old, the

1358
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:09,439
Speaker 2: same basic strategy will apply. Hunting on or near scrapes

1359
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:12,720
Speaker 2: and trails and heavily used deer areas will produce opportunities

1360
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:14,200
Speaker 2: for taking one and a half and two and a

1361
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:16,559
Speaker 2: half year old bucks during the pre rut, as well

1362
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 2: as three and a half year olds during and through

1363
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 2: the rut. The older of these bucks will naturally be

1364
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:25,040
Speaker 2: scarcer and less active during daylight hours, but still will

1365
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 2: be involved in most of the ritual running activity since

1366
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:30,479
Speaker 2: they are very likely going to be displaced by more

1367
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:34,200
Speaker 2: dominant bucks when the breeding actually begins. In other words,

1368
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:36,639
Speaker 2: they're still vying for a place of dominance, so they're

1369
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 2: going to be in there kicking butck as long as

1370
01:13:38,479 --> 01:13:40,599
Speaker 2: they can and hoping for a piece of the action,

1371
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:45,559
Speaker 2: so to speak. It is on these bucks that the rattling, grunting, mock.

1372
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:48,320
Speaker 1: Scrapes, etc. Will work to some degree.

1373
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:50,679
Speaker 2: Mostly though, it's just a matter of reading the sign

1374
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:53,639
Speaker 2: and being there as much as possible until something happens,

1375
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 2: while never forgetting that all the usual precautionary measures such

1376
01:13:58,040 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 2: as wind direction, stand placement, and careful stand entry are

1377
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:03,400
Speaker 2: still vitally important.

1378
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:06,720
Speaker 1: Now. While scrapes are still the nucleus of.

1379
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:09,200
Speaker 2: My rut hunting strategy, I must point out that as

1380
01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:12,559
Speaker 2: each advancing age class of buck is encountered, my setup

1381
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:16,040
Speaker 2: becomes further away from the scrape location itself. The two

1382
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:17,839
Speaker 2: and a half year olds, as well as the occasional

1383
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 2: three year olds, can be taken right off the scrape site,

1384
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:23,720
Speaker 2: provided the wind direction and geography, the location offers the

1385
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:26,599
Speaker 2: opportunity to make a stand where the smarter bucks can't

1386
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 2: approach from downwind. Situations which provide such an advantage are few,

1387
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:35,240
Speaker 2: but are now and then available. Most frustrated scrape hunters

1388
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:37,800
Speaker 2: are either hunting the wrong scrape at the wrong time,

1389
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 2: or two trying to hunt the scrape too closely and

1390
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 2: are being detected, usually from far enough away that they

1391
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:48,599
Speaker 2: don't realize it's happened. Mock scrapes can, if properly done,

1392
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 2: help minimize this problem, since it can be located at

1393
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:55,760
Speaker 2: a spot advantageous to the hunter. However, The only case

1394
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:58,040
Speaker 2: I've ever known of a real trophy class buck being

1395
01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 2: taken off such a scrape was when he followed a

1396
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:04,160
Speaker 2: hot dough to one. Some of the more mature bucks

1397
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:07,439
Speaker 2: are frequently party to the first opening of perennial scrapes,

1398
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:10,400
Speaker 2: but then tend to shy away as the activity by

1399
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 2: other deer begins to gravitate towards it. He obviously realizes

1400
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 2: that all that activity will draw dangerous attention to the area.

1401
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 2: It's not like he loses interest, or rather just stands

1402
01:15:20,479 --> 01:15:23,880
Speaker 2: back and lets the kids make fools of themselves. His

1403
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:27,120
Speaker 2: involvement may or may not include actual visits to the scrape,

1404
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:29,519
Speaker 2: but if it does, you can bet extreme caution will

1405
01:15:29,520 --> 01:15:32,719
Speaker 2: be exercised. More likely, he will take up a place

1406
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:35,200
Speaker 2: of vigilance where he can keep tabs on the activity

1407
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:38,559
Speaker 2: at the scrape through scent, sight, or hearing. While the

1408
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:42,160
Speaker 2: actual visits might be nocturnal, bucks older than four and

1409
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:44,519
Speaker 2: a half years old will be even more cautious and

1410
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:48,400
Speaker 2: seldom actually visit the scrape site, choosing instead to monitor

1411
01:15:48,439 --> 01:15:51,960
Speaker 2: the bottlenecks in corridors which traveling doughs are using while

1412
01:15:52,000 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 2: passing through or visiting scrape barriers. So again, this sounds

1413
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 2: like what we've talked about already. This sounds like being

1414
01:16:11,880 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 2: downwind of dough betting areas, being downwind of that major

1415
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:18,639
Speaker 2: hub scrape in that dough hot spot. This is something

1416
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:21,559
Speaker 2: that people are having success with today and that Roger

1417
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:25,200
Speaker 2: was really pioneering in the eighties and nineties, and that

1418
01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:27,280
Speaker 2: we can still be putting into action now as well.

1419
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:31,160
Speaker 2: So all of that said with this point that he

1420
01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:33,280
Speaker 2: makes about the fact that you need to be thinking about,

1421
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 2: you know, being downwind of these scrapes, being downwind of

1422
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:40,240
Speaker 2: these dough hot spots, these these primary scrape areas that

1423
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:43,559
Speaker 2: you know, I think is a high level example of

1424
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 2: something that he talks about in many other examples, which

1425
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:49,559
Speaker 2: is the implications of wind in general and how deer

1426
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:53,080
Speaker 2: use wind. He's often talking about, you know, earlier and scouting.

1427
01:16:53,120 --> 01:16:56,320
Speaker 2: We need to be scouting for wind also while you're hunting,

1428
01:16:56,479 --> 01:17:01,320
Speaker 2: observing how deer use the wind. Something writes here is

1429
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:04,360
Speaker 2: something that a lot of the best hunters today are

1430
01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 2: still trying to do, which is giving deer the illusion

1431
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:13,880
Speaker 2: of a wind advantage. I want to write to you exactly,

1432
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 2: I want to read to you what he says about that,

1433
01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:20,200
Speaker 2: and this is something that I'm sure you've heard before

1434
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 2: spoken by someone in the modern day. He says, it

1435
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:28,679
Speaker 2: is hard to imagine that even the most cunning buck

1436
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:30,880
Speaker 2: does not let his guard down once in a while.

1437
01:17:31,160 --> 01:17:33,800
Speaker 2: After all, he can't walk into the wind all the time,

1438
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:37,080
Speaker 2: and the rut can definitely coax even a crafty buck

1439
01:17:37,080 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 2: whose normal lifestyle is practically one hundred percent nocturnal into

1440
01:17:41,080 --> 01:17:44,640
Speaker 2: daylight movement, even though it will make him especially vulnerable.

1441
01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:47,800
Speaker 2: One must keep in mind at all times that deer

1442
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:52,400
Speaker 2: must constantly make choices and play the odds. Whenever exposing

1443
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:55,360
Speaker 2: himself to danger, he will invariably choose the move that

1444
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:59,519
Speaker 2: is least risky. Moving crosswind is less risky than moving

1445
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:02,479
Speaker 2: with a tail wind, et cetera. I feel that my

1446
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:05,519
Speaker 2: thinking along these lines of reasoning have been responsible for

1447
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,920
Speaker 2: many of the opportunities that have developed for me. My

1448
01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:12,080
Speaker 2: favorite setup is one that is almost wrong for me

1449
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:19,400
Speaker 2: and almost right for the deer, the keyword being almost so. Again,

1450
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 2: my favorite setup is one that is almost wrong for

1451
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 2: me and almost right for the deer. So the deer

1452
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,640
Speaker 2: is using this area because he has a wind advantage

1453
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:34,519
Speaker 2: of some kind, because he can scent check the betting area,

1454
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:39,519
Speaker 2: or scent check a scrape. But you are set up

1455
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:41,880
Speaker 2: in such a way that your wind is blowing just

1456
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:45,320
Speaker 2: off of that. So his advantage from a wind perspective

1457
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:48,040
Speaker 2: is just not quite right. We spent a lot of

1458
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:50,960
Speaker 2: time talking about this with Adam Hayes back on our

1459
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:55,120
Speaker 2: first or second podcast with Adam, we detailed exactly how

1460
01:18:55,160 --> 01:18:57,840
Speaker 2: he tries to set up with these just off winds,

1461
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:00,840
Speaker 2: these cutting the corner winds where the wind is good

1462
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:02,720
Speaker 2: for the deer most of the way, but then there's

1463
01:19:02,720 --> 01:19:06,400
Speaker 2: a little feature, an edge, a ditch, a pond, a cliff,

1464
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:09,479
Speaker 2: something that keeps the deer from getting just to where

1465
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:12,200
Speaker 2: your wind is blowing. That is a key thing that

1466
01:19:12,439 --> 01:19:15,960
Speaker 2: works now, and Roger was kind of setting the stage

1467
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:20,759
Speaker 2: four decades ago. One last thing here on a hunting

1468
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:25,920
Speaker 2: perspective that when I read Roger write this, I thought

1469
01:19:25,920 --> 01:19:27,559
Speaker 2: to myself, ad that that sounds like me.

1470
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:30,840
Speaker 1: He talked about not outsmarting yourself.

1471
01:19:30,960 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 2: And he was detailing this in the story of his

1472
01:19:35,280 --> 01:19:40,240
Speaker 2: He had been hunting this really impressive buck, a mainframe

1473
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:44,720
Speaker 2: eight pointer with four drop times coming down off underneath

1474
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:48,920
Speaker 2: every one of those regular times, and he ended up

1475
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 2: seeing this buck come out of a fence row, and

1476
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:53,600
Speaker 2: he adjusted his location the next time to try to

1477
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:54,959
Speaker 2: be right where that buck.

1478
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:55,720
Speaker 1: Came out last time.

1479
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:58,280
Speaker 2: And the buck does come out, but he comes out

1480
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 2: where he was the day before, right. And this is

1481
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:04,120
Speaker 2: the idea of like chasing bucks and then you know,

1482
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 2: being one step too far behind. I've done this so

1483
01:20:07,280 --> 01:20:09,599
Speaker 2: many times, I think a lot of us have. We

1484
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:12,360
Speaker 2: have heard time and time again the importance of the

1485
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:15,519
Speaker 2: first sip right, the fact that you can hunt somewhere

1486
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:18,920
Speaker 2: and surprise a buck there, you have an advantage and

1487
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:21,920
Speaker 2: that can be great. And also we've heard a lot

1488
01:20:21,960 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 2: about the benefits of mobile deer hunting and the idea

1489
01:20:25,439 --> 01:20:27,320
Speaker 2: that you can hunt different places all the time and

1490
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:29,760
Speaker 2: you can see deer do something one day and then

1491
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 2: try to take advantage of that. There's a lot of

1492
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:38,120
Speaker 2: ways that can help you as a hunter. But I've

1493
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:40,400
Speaker 2: also found that you can also chase your tail, that

1494
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:43,040
Speaker 2: you can also outsmart yourself, as.

1495
01:20:43,080 --> 01:20:44,560
Speaker 1: Roger here will describe.

1496
01:20:45,320 --> 01:20:49,479
Speaker 2: Because deer are less predictable than we sometimes like to

1497
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:53,439
Speaker 2: think that they are. I think we sometimes try to

1498
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 2: put them in a box. We sometimes try to, you know,

1499
01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:01,960
Speaker 2: create rules around Oh well, mature bucks do this thing,

1500
01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:04,559
Speaker 2: or mature bucks do that thing, or if I saw

1501
01:21:04,640 --> 01:21:06,800
Speaker 2: him do it this thing yesterday, then he'll definitely do

1502
01:21:06,880 --> 01:21:11,720
Speaker 2: that thing tomorrow. And more often than not, there unpredictable.

1503
01:21:11,840 --> 01:21:15,400
Speaker 2: There's a randomness to them. There is a wildness to

1504
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:21,639
Speaker 2: them that you just simply have to accept and respect. So, yeah,

1505
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:24,280
Speaker 2: you can pattern deer to some degree, you can try

1506
01:21:24,320 --> 01:21:26,439
Speaker 2: to predict what they're gonna do to some degree.

1507
01:21:27,479 --> 01:21:29,479
Speaker 1: That's a lot of fun. I love trying to do

1508
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 1: it too, but there's only so much of that you

1509
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:32,639
Speaker 1: can figure out.

1510
01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:36,720
Speaker 2: And so Roger here makes a great point in kind

1511
01:21:36,720 --> 01:21:41,080
Speaker 2: of admonishing himself for trying to overthink things and that

1512
01:21:41,840 --> 01:21:45,040
Speaker 2: nipping him in the butt. So he says, here, after

1513
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 2: making all these moves trying to chase this buck round

1514
01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:49,840
Speaker 2: and then seeing the bucks show up where he just was,

1515
01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:52,920
Speaker 2: I made one of the most common beginner's mistakes of

1516
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 2: all by not sticking by my choice of a stand position.

1517
01:21:56,760 --> 01:22:00,200
Speaker 2: Jumping from stand to stand generally results in being in

1518
01:22:00,240 --> 01:22:03,200
Speaker 2: the wrong place at the right time, and doing it

1519
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:05,519
Speaker 2: quite possibly cost me a chance at one of the

1520
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:10,759
Speaker 2: best whitetail bucks I have ever seen a field. Always

1521
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 2: remember that Patience is one of the key ingredients to

1522
01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:18,880
Speaker 2: success in trophy whitetail hunting, and tenacity is another. Be

1523
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:22,880
Speaker 2: certain there's ample reason before making such a change. Do

1524
01:22:23,040 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 2: not outsmart yourself like I did. Guilty as charged on occasion,

1525
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:33,360
Speaker 2: Roger guilty as charge. I want to share with you

1526
01:22:33,840 --> 01:22:35,800
Speaker 2: next a story of his.

1527
01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:36,599
Speaker 1: Uh.

1528
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:39,240
Speaker 2: One of these stories in Whitetail Magic. And I think

1529
01:22:39,280 --> 01:22:41,200
Speaker 2: one of the cool things about that book is that

1530
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:44,920
Speaker 2: the lessons he shares are kind of sprinkled in within

1531
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:46,839
Speaker 2: these larger deer hunting stories.

1532
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:48,840
Speaker 1: And in one of these deer hunting.

1533
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:52,360
Speaker 2: Stories, I thought it perfectly illustrated a bunch of the

1534
01:22:52,439 --> 01:22:55,280
Speaker 2: things that I've tried to share with you today, A

1535
01:22:55,320 --> 01:22:58,719
Speaker 2: bunch of the ideas and strategies and approaches were actually

1536
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:02,760
Speaker 2: put into action on the buck. So starts out with

1537
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:05,559
Speaker 2: him going on a scouting trip. This scouting trip is

1538
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:07,720
Speaker 2: happening in the early spring. He says, he's out there

1539
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:11,320
Speaker 2: in March. He's scouting, he's also shooting ground shucks. He said,

1540
01:23:11,360 --> 01:23:14,880
Speaker 2: he's out there kind of doing a multipurpose hunt and

1541
01:23:15,040 --> 01:23:18,479
Speaker 2: learn as you go type of experience while he's out there.

1542
01:23:18,600 --> 01:23:20,840
Speaker 2: And I think this is a great example of being

1543
01:23:20,840 --> 01:23:24,200
Speaker 2: out there all year round, imersing yourself. While he's out there,

1544
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:27,479
Speaker 2: he comes across a set of tracks. Now this goes

1545
01:23:27,520 --> 01:23:29,479
Speaker 2: back to what we talked about with iding tracks. He

1546
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:32,160
Speaker 2: looks at these tracks and identifies them as big, old,

1547
01:23:32,320 --> 01:23:34,760
Speaker 2: mature buck tracks, and he says to himself, all right,

1548
01:23:35,479 --> 01:23:38,559
Speaker 2: this is an opportunity to learn something, to connect some dots.

1549
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:40,760
Speaker 2: So he didn't just notice the tracks and say, oh, cool,

1550
01:23:40,760 --> 01:23:44,000
Speaker 2: big buck round here. He said, all right, big buck tracks.

1551
01:23:44,720 --> 01:23:46,879
Speaker 2: What can I learn from this? How can I connect

1552
01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:49,719
Speaker 2: this to something else? So he started following those tracks.

1553
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:53,080
Speaker 2: He followed those tracks for more than a mile and

1554
01:23:53,160 --> 01:23:56,439
Speaker 2: a half. So this goes to that tenacity, this coast,

1555
01:23:56,479 --> 01:23:59,160
Speaker 2: to that willingness to really get out there and learn

1556
01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:02,400
Speaker 2: the landscape. He follows these tracks for more than a

1557
01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 2: mile and a half. He gets to a piece of

1558
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:09,479
Speaker 2: timber where there's a nasty, thick, overgrown section. There's an

1559
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:12,439
Speaker 2: old orchard, and there is a I think he said

1560
01:24:12,479 --> 01:24:14,720
Speaker 2: there was like a clear cut thicket that now is

1561
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:17,720
Speaker 2: about ten acres of just thick, nasty bedding cover. So

1562
01:24:17,840 --> 01:24:22,360
Speaker 2: where this overgrown orchard and this nasty clear cut converge,

1563
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:26,240
Speaker 2: he starts seeing sign He starts seeing.

1564
01:24:27,360 --> 01:24:27,759
Speaker 1: Tracks.

1565
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:32,519
Speaker 2: He starts seeing trails, He starts seeing scrapes, including what

1566
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:35,519
Speaker 2: eventually he determines to be you know, signs of a

1567
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:39,280
Speaker 2: primary scrape area, like multiple really big scrapes all in

1568
01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:43,080
Speaker 2: the same zone. Problem is that he sees a bunch

1569
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:46,000
Speaker 2: of sheep in the area, and he mentions in the

1570
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:49,080
Speaker 2: book that you know, sheep and deer don't typically, you know,

1571
01:24:49,320 --> 01:24:53,880
Speaker 2: mix very well for hunting opportunities. So he determines that,

1572
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:55,920
Speaker 2: you know, this isn't gonna be somewhere I'm gonna hunt

1573
01:24:55,960 --> 01:24:57,680
Speaker 2: right now, but I'm gonna keep tabs on it. He

1574
01:24:57,760 --> 01:24:59,720
Speaker 2: even goes so far as to pick a tree that

1575
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:01,240
Speaker 2: if he we were going to come back and hunt this,

1576
01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:04,120
Speaker 2: he'd want to be on the downwind side of that spot.

1577
01:25:04,439 --> 01:25:06,240
Speaker 1: He would want to be set up in such a.

1578
01:25:06,240 --> 01:25:08,360
Speaker 2: Way that he could take advantage of that wind and

1579
01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:09,599
Speaker 2: hunt a deer coming to.

1580
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:10,760
Speaker 1: That primary scrape.

1581
01:25:11,439 --> 01:25:14,080
Speaker 2: Actually, I'm going to read you a bit here where

1582
01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:16,719
Speaker 2: he discusses that, because I think the way he thinks

1583
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:18,920
Speaker 2: this through when he found this hot spot, or at

1584
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:22,880
Speaker 2: least a potential hot spot someday, I think it's pretty

1585
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:26,040
Speaker 2: eye opening. So he finds the spot, and he says

1586
01:25:26,439 --> 01:25:29,800
Speaker 2: the whole scenario provided the perfect environment for deer, and

1587
01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:32,160
Speaker 2: I had even found the perfect spot for a stand

1588
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:34,800
Speaker 2: in a broken maple tree growing on the rim of

1589
01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:38,320
Speaker 2: the ravine at the orchard's upper end, upper end, some

1590
01:25:38,400 --> 01:25:42,080
Speaker 2: thirty yards from the overgrown woods. I could easily visualize

1591
01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:44,720
Speaker 2: an old buck making his rounds, checking the orchard for

1592
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:47,320
Speaker 2: hot doze, and following the rim around to this point

1593
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:49,559
Speaker 2: of entry into the thicket to bed for the day.

1594
01:25:50,160 --> 01:25:53,280
Speaker 2: The route, while attractive because of the terrain, would also

1595
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:55,800
Speaker 2: tend to keep the deer in a cross wind all

1596
01:25:55,840 --> 01:25:58,799
Speaker 2: along the route and until he had passed the tree stand.

1597
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:02,679
Speaker 2: So not only did he find this zone of interest,

1598
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:06,679
Speaker 2: this terrain and habitat that would probably be a spot

1599
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:09,320
Speaker 2: that's going to attract deer, not only did he see

1600
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:11,799
Speaker 2: the sign that confirmed that with the scrapes and trails

1601
01:26:11,800 --> 01:26:14,160
Speaker 2: and stuff. He then also thought about how do I

1602
01:26:14,200 --> 01:26:17,880
Speaker 2: position to account for wind to be downwind of it

1603
01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:21,040
Speaker 2: to funnel deer movement. All that kind of stuff. He

1604
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:23,759
Speaker 2: maps all that out, He connects all those dots. He

1605
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:26,720
Speaker 2: uses his imagination to imagine how I deer would use this.

1606
01:26:26,800 --> 01:26:29,439
Speaker 2: To imagine how a deer would use a crosswind to

1607
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:31,680
Speaker 2: imagine what the wind direction would need to be for

1608
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:34,679
Speaker 2: him to hunt there safely while also giving the deer

1609
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:38,639
Speaker 2: a perceived advantage. He does all that, but also determines

1610
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:40,880
Speaker 2: bat with all the sheep in here, now's not the time.

1611
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:44,720
Speaker 2: Now fast forward. He keeps this in the back of

1612
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:48,960
Speaker 2: his mind. Three years later he hears that the landowner

1613
01:26:49,280 --> 01:26:52,320
Speaker 2: sold the sheep. He finds us out in season three

1614
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:54,760
Speaker 2: years later. Right away he's like, all right, I need

1615
01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:56,679
Speaker 2: to get out there do some in season scouting.

1616
01:26:56,920 --> 01:26:58,240
Speaker 1: See what that place looks like now.

1617
01:26:59,200 --> 01:27:02,120
Speaker 2: So in early November he goes out to this place

1618
01:27:02,439 --> 01:27:05,559
Speaker 2: at ten am. He's walking through. He scouts his way

1619
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:09,280
Speaker 2: back into this property. He finds that what was mowed

1620
01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:12,600
Speaker 2: down vegetation by sheep has now really overgrown. It is

1621
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:16,400
Speaker 2: super thick. It is crisscrossed with highways from deer. Now

1622
01:27:16,439 --> 01:27:18,920
Speaker 2: because now that it's thicker, it is even more of

1623
01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:21,799
Speaker 2: a dough hotspot, and because of that a buck hotspot.

1624
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:25,720
Speaker 2: There are apples falling, and there are multiple huge scrapes

1625
01:27:25,760 --> 01:27:29,719
Speaker 2: in the same zone. Small bushes and saplings are mangled

1626
01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:33,400
Speaker 2: around some of these scrapes, all around this one big tree.

1627
01:27:33,479 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 2: He works his way back to the tree that he

1628
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:39,080
Speaker 2: picked out. He confirms not only that there's those big

1629
01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:42,080
Speaker 2: scrapes as there were last time, but he even goes

1630
01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:45,080
Speaker 2: and checks and finds really big tracks that tell him

1631
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:47,040
Speaker 2: that this isn't just a bunch of deer, this is

1632
01:27:47,080 --> 01:27:52,880
Speaker 2: actually a big mature buck. Two and he sees, you know, yes,

1633
01:27:52,960 --> 01:27:56,400
Speaker 2: so he sees those big tracks and big rubs right

1634
01:27:56,439 --> 01:27:59,599
Speaker 2: where that major primary scrape zone is. He then comes

1635
01:27:59,600 --> 01:28:02,760
Speaker 2: back or two later for the hunt. First hunt sits it.

1636
01:28:02,840 --> 01:28:04,320
Speaker 2: He has a lot of faith in that spot, but

1637
01:28:04,360 --> 01:28:07,120
Speaker 2: does not see a big shooter buck, but he resists

1638
01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:09,600
Speaker 2: the temptation to go bouncing all over the place. He

1639
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:13,439
Speaker 2: has patience and tenacity, returns back to it, hunts it

1640
01:28:13,520 --> 01:28:16,160
Speaker 2: the next day, and in the late morning, a big

1641
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:19,759
Speaker 2: buck comes out of this overgrown thicket, hammers those scrapes,

1642
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:23,000
Speaker 2: and Roger gets a shot at him. So you've got

1643
01:28:23,120 --> 01:28:25,400
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of these different things we've talked about

1644
01:28:25,439 --> 01:28:28,519
Speaker 2: all coming together in one story. You have the off

1645
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:32,080
Speaker 2: season scouting, You have the iding big buck tracks. You

1646
01:28:32,120 --> 01:28:34,479
Speaker 2: have the willingness to try to, you know, paint the

1647
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:37,439
Speaker 2: full picture by following the tracks, by seeing where they

1648
01:28:37,439 --> 01:28:40,599
Speaker 2: took him, by then being able to identify this terrain

1649
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:44,600
Speaker 2: and habitat hotspot, which is the strategic location that he

1650
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 2: talks about that.

1651
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:47,719
Speaker 1: Bucks like to have primary scrape areas.

1652
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:51,840
Speaker 2: He finds that sign it's not quite right, though when

1653
01:28:51,840 --> 01:28:54,080
Speaker 2: he finally does here that it is, he goes back

1654
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:57,439
Speaker 2: in for that in season scouting confirms all these different things.

1655
01:28:57,640 --> 01:29:00,000
Speaker 2: I think that's another key point. Do your off seat

1656
01:29:00,120 --> 01:29:02,519
Speaker 2: and scouting, but then return in the end season to

1657
01:29:02,640 --> 01:29:06,080
Speaker 2: confirm when it's happening, to confirm if now's the time

1658
01:29:06,080 --> 01:29:09,320
Speaker 2: to get after all of these things all stacked together

1659
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:12,679
Speaker 2: over a three year time period led to him being

1660
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:15,320
Speaker 2: in the right spot at the right time. It's a

1661
01:29:15,320 --> 01:29:19,160
Speaker 2: pretty amazing example, terrific story, and I think just very

1662
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:23,639
Speaker 2: nicely shows us why and how the Roger Rothar method

1663
01:29:24,080 --> 01:29:27,559
Speaker 2: can lead to whitetaim magic. And I think this story,

1664
01:29:27,800 --> 01:29:30,760
Speaker 2: as I mentioned, you know, illustrates how you know one

1665
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:35,000
Speaker 2: of the key aspects of Roger's strategy, whether it's scouting

1666
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:38,400
Speaker 2: or actually hunting, It goes back to that connecting of

1667
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 2: the dots. It goes back to asking why why is

1668
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:43,400
Speaker 2: this happening, Why is this here?

1669
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:45,640
Speaker 1: Why does deer do this?

1670
01:29:46,320 --> 01:29:49,400
Speaker 2: And you know that ultimately leads to this this attempt

1671
01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:53,320
Speaker 2: to predict deer movement, to try to predict what these

1672
01:29:53,320 --> 01:29:53,960
Speaker 2: deer are going to do.

1673
01:29:54,479 --> 01:29:55,920
Speaker 1: And I love there's this quote in the book.

1674
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:59,600
Speaker 2: He mentions that, you know, while we're constantly trying to

1675
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:01,800
Speaker 2: put these deer in a box, we're constantly trying to

1676
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:04,040
Speaker 2: predict why a deer will do something or how a

1677
01:30:04,080 --> 01:30:08,479
Speaker 2: deer will do something. He says that another author pointed out,

1678
01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:12,559
Speaker 2: and I quote, the mature whitetail buck will do at

1679
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:15,519
Speaker 2: any given time and under any set of circumstances, the

1680
01:30:15,560 --> 01:30:18,640
Speaker 2: mature buck will do as he damned well pleases. So

1681
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:21,760
Speaker 2: you know, we might like to think that bucks always

1682
01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:24,240
Speaker 2: travel with the wind in their face, or that mature

1683
01:30:24,240 --> 01:30:26,960
Speaker 2: bucks always want to, you know, travel in thick cover,

1684
01:30:27,160 --> 01:30:29,800
Speaker 2: that mature bucks always prefer to go down wind of

1685
01:30:29,840 --> 01:30:30,839
Speaker 2: a scrape or whatever.

1686
01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:31,120
Speaker 1: You know.

1687
01:30:31,240 --> 01:30:34,120
Speaker 2: Roger made these types of claims just like we still

1688
01:30:34,160 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 2: do today. But in the end, they're gonna do whatever

1689
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:40,320
Speaker 2: the damn will please. Because they're wild animals. There's a

1690
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:44,240
Speaker 2: certain randomness to them. As I mentioned earlier, that said,

1691
01:30:44,280 --> 01:30:47,400
Speaker 2: we still do need to try to put these puzzle

1692
01:30:47,400 --> 01:30:50,160
Speaker 2: pieces together. And there's a great section in here in

1693
01:30:50,200 --> 01:30:53,519
Speaker 2: whitetail Magic, where he talks about, you know, how we

1694
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:56,559
Speaker 2: can try to put all these pieces together as he

1695
01:30:56,600 --> 01:30:58,720
Speaker 2: did in that hunt I just shared with you. So

1696
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 2: let me read you one of just a couple more

1697
01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:05,400
Speaker 2: pieces here before we wrap it up. Roger writes, many

1698
01:31:05,479 --> 01:31:08,240
Speaker 2: times we've been told you have to think like a deer.

1699
01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:11,720
Speaker 2: Good advice, for sure, but a whole lot easier to

1700
01:31:11,800 --> 01:31:14,960
Speaker 2: say than to do. It's difficult enough to try to

1701
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:17,400
Speaker 2: think like another human, even when they happen to have

1702
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:21,160
Speaker 2: the same lifestyle, needs and desires as we do, never

1703
01:31:21,160 --> 01:31:24,439
Speaker 2: mind another species of animal. But while the lifestyle of

1704
01:31:24,479 --> 01:31:27,479
Speaker 2: deer is far less complex than that of humans, there

1705
01:31:27,479 --> 01:31:30,520
Speaker 2: are similarities we can relate to and the problems encountered

1706
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:33,200
Speaker 2: when trying to understand each to the point of trying

1707
01:31:33,360 --> 01:31:37,240
Speaker 2: to think like them. In the first place, it's necessary

1708
01:31:37,280 --> 01:31:39,400
Speaker 2: to take note of what was done in the past

1709
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:42,720
Speaker 2: and to try to analyze why it was done. The

1710
01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:46,280
Speaker 2: next step is to discover what's being done presently and

1711
01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:48,920
Speaker 2: to try and determine not only why it's being done,

1712
01:31:49,200 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 2: but how it relates to what was done.

1713
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:51,639
Speaker 1: In the past.

1714
01:31:52,320 --> 01:31:55,840
Speaker 2: Then the final step is to take the resulting deductions

1715
01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:59,320
Speaker 2: derived from these observations in the first two and from

1716
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:02,320
Speaker 2: them attempt to calculate a prediction of what is likely

1717
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:06,000
Speaker 2: to be done in the future. Unfortunately, it will not

1718
01:32:06,120 --> 01:32:08,880
Speaker 2: be totally accurate to assume those things that have been

1719
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:11,439
Speaker 2: repeated in the past will be the only actions of

1720
01:32:11,479 --> 01:32:16,799
Speaker 2: the future, since changing conditions will generate different responses. Therefore,

1721
01:32:17,240 --> 01:32:20,479
Speaker 2: the most accurate way to predict what will what action

1722
01:32:20,640 --> 01:32:23,160
Speaker 2: will be taken in the future is not by only

1723
01:32:23,240 --> 01:32:25,880
Speaker 2: noting what action was repeated in the past, but the

1724
01:32:25,960 --> 01:32:30,120
Speaker 2: reason for the repetition. Not until the reason is understood,

1725
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 2: can we make accurate predictions of future actions through the

1726
01:32:34,040 --> 01:32:37,400
Speaker 2: monitoring of those conditions and thus begin to think like

1727
01:32:37,439 --> 01:32:41,720
Speaker 2: a deer. Not quite so simple, is it. Then he

1728
01:32:41,760 --> 01:32:43,519
Speaker 2: goes on to say, and I think that that's a

1729
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:45,040
Speaker 2: lot of words there. I think the key thing there

1730
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:48,559
Speaker 2: is everything you see in the field, whether it's sign

1731
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:52,360
Speaker 2: or deer movement. It goes back to asking why, It

1732
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:55,880
Speaker 2: goes back to trying to decipher what's the reason for this.

1733
01:32:56,680 --> 01:32:59,040
Speaker 2: Now he goes on to say, the good news for

1734
01:32:59,080 --> 01:33:01,880
Speaker 2: the whitetail hunter is that success can be had even

1735
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:05,400
Speaker 2: if he can recognize only the repetition, since the factors

1736
01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:09,960
Speaker 2: that motivate animals are fewer and less subject to radical change. However,

1737
01:33:10,160 --> 01:33:12,920
Speaker 2: the further he develops, the more opportunities he will get.

1738
01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:15,640
Speaker 2: The best way I can think of to illustrate the

1739
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:18,599
Speaker 2: difference is with the example that if a hunter notes

1740
01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:21,920
Speaker 2: the action being repeated a second time, he should kill

1741
01:33:21,960 --> 01:33:24,800
Speaker 2: the buck the third time he tries it. If the

1742
01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:28,000
Speaker 2: hunter is able to recognize the reason for the action,

1743
01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:31,000
Speaker 2: he should kill the buck the first time he attempts

1744
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:34,280
Speaker 2: to repeat it. There are not many hunters that possess

1745
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:37,960
Speaker 2: the ability to do the former, and even fewer the latter.

1746
01:33:38,800 --> 01:33:42,160
Speaker 2: Rare still are the handful who understand the natural order

1747
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:45,080
Speaker 2: of things enough to predict something a buck is going

1748
01:33:45,120 --> 01:33:49,080
Speaker 2: to do before he does it the first time. This

1749
01:33:49,280 --> 01:33:52,519
Speaker 2: is something that I think goes back to some of

1750
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:55,639
Speaker 2: the conversations we've had about trail cameras, and again, we're

1751
01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:58,880
Speaker 2: chasing trail camera photos. We're using technology and modern day

1752
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:01,639
Speaker 2: information to try to chase sees critters. You know, Okay,

1753
01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:04,640
Speaker 2: I got a picture of him on this uh, you know,

1754
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:07,639
Speaker 2: this apple tree yesterday. So I'm gonna go sit there tomorrow.

1755
01:34:08,720 --> 01:34:12,280
Speaker 2: What Roger's telling us and what you know? I think

1756
01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:14,720
Speaker 2: the mistake that so many of us make is that

1757
01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:16,600
Speaker 2: we see them do something once we go try to

1758
01:34:16,600 --> 01:34:18,960
Speaker 2: have it happen, but we don't understand the reason behind

1759
01:34:18,960 --> 01:34:19,839
Speaker 2: it having happened.

1760
01:34:20,160 --> 01:34:22,080
Speaker 1: So we don't understand why.

1761
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:24,040
Speaker 2: He was of that apple tree yesterday, or the reason

1762
01:34:24,120 --> 01:34:27,679
Speaker 2: he was at that apple tree yesterday. If we don't

1763
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:31,360
Speaker 2: connect those dots and we don't understand what's going on

1764
01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:34,559
Speaker 2: in the background, we can't successfully predict when he'll be

1765
01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:36,439
Speaker 2: there the next time. If you can understand the why,

1766
01:34:36,560 --> 01:34:39,280
Speaker 2: if you can understand the reason, then you can note, oh,

1767
01:34:39,320 --> 01:34:41,960
Speaker 2: it's because it was x wind this food source with

1768
01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:44,599
Speaker 2: this entry route, maybe then it does actually work out

1769
01:34:44,680 --> 01:34:47,519
Speaker 2: for you. In other words, you got to be the camera.

1770
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:50,280
Speaker 2: We've talked a lot about how people chase camera pictures,

1771
01:34:50,320 --> 01:34:52,559
Speaker 2: they chase sell pictures. But I think it was Mark

1772
01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:55,439
Speaker 2: Jury who told me a few years ago that instead

1773
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:57,720
Speaker 2: of you know, waiting for the cameras to show you

1774
01:34:57,720 --> 01:34:59,280
Speaker 2: a buck there and then be there the next day,

1775
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:02,840
Speaker 2: instead you to predict where they're likely to be and

1776
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,160
Speaker 2: be the camera, be there in person to see it

1777
01:35:05,200 --> 01:35:08,120
Speaker 2: all yourself, be there ahead of time, or be in

1778
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:11,040
Speaker 2: person enough to observe a wider area and to learn

1779
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:14,320
Speaker 2: more than just a camera can tell you. I think

1780
01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:17,479
Speaker 2: that what he continues to say here is a useful

1781
01:35:17,479 --> 01:35:20,760
Speaker 2: thing to take note of and in a good place

1782
01:35:20,760 --> 01:35:22,000
Speaker 2: maybe to wrap this whole thing up.

1783
01:35:22,760 --> 01:35:24,599
Speaker 1: And what I really like here.

1784
01:35:26,240 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 2: About Roger's this final passage I want to read. And

1785
01:35:30,439 --> 01:35:34,320
Speaker 2: so much of what Roger emphasizes in these books is that,

1786
01:35:34,840 --> 01:35:38,000
Speaker 2: you know, doing what I just described, being the camera

1787
01:35:38,080 --> 01:35:40,960
Speaker 2: and predicting deer movement and trying to kill these bucks,

1788
01:35:42,160 --> 01:35:45,200
Speaker 2: all of that certainly can lead to more bucks on

1789
01:35:45,240 --> 01:35:48,000
Speaker 2: your wall and meet in your freezer, which I know

1790
01:35:48,040 --> 01:35:50,479
Speaker 2: we all want. We are all chasing that, we're all

1791
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:54,920
Speaker 2: pursuing that we have our goals. But there's also more

1792
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:58,960
Speaker 2: to it than just that. And Roger makes that point

1793
01:35:59,000 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 2: over and over again.

1794
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:00,479
Speaker 1: Right.

1795
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:03,559
Speaker 2: He gives you the tools to have success. He shares

1796
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:07,320
Speaker 2: with you his stories of trials and tribulations and then

1797
01:36:07,360 --> 01:36:10,800
Speaker 2: ultimately killing these deer and having the good luck you want.

1798
01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:14,639
Speaker 2: So he's arming you with those tools. But throughout all

1799
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:17,720
Speaker 2: of these books, he's constantly going back to what I

1800
01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:21,120
Speaker 2: just mentioned a second ago, which is asking why, understanding

1801
01:36:21,160 --> 01:36:24,719
Speaker 2: the reason, and that can be applied to the deer

1802
01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:27,720
Speaker 2: and to understand why a deer is doing something. But

1803
01:36:27,760 --> 01:36:30,760
Speaker 2: I think maybe the bigger point he tries to make

1804
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:33,920
Speaker 2: through his work is us to ask that question about ourselves,

1805
01:36:34,880 --> 01:36:38,400
Speaker 2: asking the why, understanding the reason we're out there. And

1806
01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:40,320
Speaker 2: if the reason we're out there is just to kill

1807
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:44,760
Speaker 2: a big giant buck, we're oftentimes going to miss the point.

1808
01:36:45,040 --> 01:36:49,639
Speaker 2: We're oftentimes going to lose out, loose sight of all

1809
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:52,920
Speaker 2: the beauty and amazing things that can happen in the

1810
01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:55,280
Speaker 2: process there. So it kind of opened up with that idea,

1811
01:36:55,720 --> 01:36:56,320
Speaker 2: and I want to.

1812
01:36:56,280 --> 01:37:00,760
Speaker 1: Close that idea again as well. So here's one last.

1813
01:37:00,560 --> 01:37:04,080
Speaker 2: Thought from Roger from Whitetail Magic that I think sums

1814
01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:06,760
Speaker 2: allot of this up nicely and that I hope will

1815
01:37:06,760 --> 01:37:11,000
Speaker 2: be a good place for us to leave off. Ironically,

1816
01:37:11,400 --> 01:37:16,560
Speaker 2: all the attributes normally accredited to good hunters, such as patience, perseverance,

1817
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:19,600
Speaker 2: and knowledge, while important, do not seem to be the

1818
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:23,719
Speaker 2: real key to which level of success one achieves. Instead,

1819
01:37:24,120 --> 01:37:26,639
Speaker 2: all these seem to be the end result of another

1820
01:37:26,840 --> 01:37:30,559
Speaker 2: more important aspect of hunting, which is, once again the

1821
01:37:30,640 --> 01:37:34,320
Speaker 2: attitude with which it is undertaken. In my opinion, the

1822
01:37:34,360 --> 01:37:38,920
Speaker 2: desire to hunt should be the result of fascination curiosity

1823
01:37:39,320 --> 01:37:42,559
Speaker 2: and deep respect for natural things, and how well one

1824
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:45,679
Speaker 2: does add it is directly dependent upon those things.

1825
01:37:46,160 --> 01:37:46,880
Speaker 1: While this may.

1826
01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:49,519
Speaker 2: Sound a bit corny to some, you can believe me

1827
01:37:49,600 --> 01:37:52,800
Speaker 2: when I say that every good, legitimate whitetail hunter that

1828
01:37:52,840 --> 01:37:56,360
Speaker 2: I've ever known, whether personally or through his writings, has

1829
01:37:56,400 --> 01:38:00,000
Speaker 2: exuded that respect. All the native tribes of the world

1830
01:38:00,040 --> 01:38:03,120
Speaker 2: world which lived directly off the land, regard the earth

1831
01:38:03,160 --> 01:38:06,639
Speaker 2: as their mother. The wild animals are referred to as brothers.

1832
01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:10,799
Speaker 2: Even trees and other living vegetation, as well as rivers

1833
01:38:10,840 --> 01:38:13,440
Speaker 2: and weather that contribute to the quality of their existence,

1834
01:38:13,760 --> 01:38:17,479
Speaker 2: are given status and honor. As a child, as well

1835
01:38:17,479 --> 01:38:20,639
Speaker 2: as on through my adult years, books, magazines, and films

1836
01:38:20,720 --> 01:38:24,120
Speaker 2: based on these things have interested and intrigued me. When

1837
01:38:24,120 --> 01:38:26,519
Speaker 2: I came of age where I could do some serious hunting,

1838
01:38:26,880 --> 01:38:29,800
Speaker 2: the temptation to become a killer for the sake of

1839
01:38:29,920 --> 01:38:33,240
Speaker 2: killing was ever present, but the influence of the writings

1840
01:38:33,240 --> 01:38:38,439
Speaker 2: of naturalists such as Leopold Thurrough, Teddy Roosevelt Rutledge, and

1841
01:38:38,520 --> 01:38:43,280
Speaker 2: yes Edgar Rice Burroughs was always present, questioning my intentions.

1842
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:47,960
Speaker 2: Those authors and naturalist sportsmen were men of wisdom, with

1843
01:38:48,080 --> 01:38:51,639
Speaker 2: understanding and vision. If some of these works were required

1844
01:38:51,720 --> 01:38:54,880
Speaker 2: reading before one was allowed to hunt. I'm certain most

1845
01:38:54,920 --> 01:38:57,439
Speaker 2: of our present day problems with hunter image and anti

1846
01:38:57,520 --> 01:39:02,000
Speaker 2: hunting sentiment would be non existent now. I wish for

1847
01:39:02,040 --> 01:39:04,240
Speaker 2: the reader to understand that I did not go into

1848
01:39:04,280 --> 01:39:07,439
Speaker 2: all this philosophical prose to preach or toot my horn,

1849
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:10,960
Speaker 2: but rather to express my ideas on how do you

1850
01:39:11,000 --> 01:39:13,639
Speaker 2: think like a deer and try to answer the question

1851
01:39:13,760 --> 01:39:16,640
Speaker 2: I am often asked personally, which is how do you

1852
01:39:16,760 --> 01:39:20,760
Speaker 2: keep on killing those big bucks? If you can understand

1853
01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:23,479
Speaker 2: what I've tried to explain, you will know the answer

1854
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:27,400
Speaker 2: to both. Frequently at seminars I try to clarify the

1855
01:39:27,439 --> 01:39:31,000
Speaker 2: point by noting the high percentages of hunters today who

1856
01:39:31,080 --> 01:39:34,000
Speaker 2: can recite the scientific names of the scent glands as

1857
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:37,840
Speaker 2: well as vocalizations another technical data about white tailed deer,

1858
01:39:38,320 --> 01:39:40,479
Speaker 2: but seldom can tell me what kind of tree their

1859
01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:43,200
Speaker 2: stand is hanging in, or what is the favorite local

1860
01:39:43,240 --> 01:39:46,679
Speaker 2: plant browse of the deer they are hunting. Another good

1861
01:39:46,720 --> 01:39:51,240
Speaker 2: parallel I use often is reference to athletic sports. Consider first,

1862
01:39:51,280 --> 01:39:54,000
Speaker 2: a person who simply loves a sport for its own sake,

1863
01:39:54,280 --> 01:39:57,559
Speaker 2: be it gulf basketball, baseball, or whatever, and plays it

1864
01:39:57,560 --> 01:39:58,760
Speaker 2: for the pure enjoyment.

1865
01:39:59,280 --> 01:40:01,040
Speaker 1: But he always gives his best.

1866
01:40:00,920 --> 01:40:02,760
Speaker 2: And gets good enough to think he might just be

1867
01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:04,960
Speaker 2: able to become a proer win a gold medal at

1868
01:40:04,960 --> 01:40:05,560
Speaker 2: the Olympics.

1869
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:06,400
Speaker 1: So it goes for it.

1870
01:40:07,040 --> 01:40:09,320
Speaker 2: Whether he reaches his goal or not, he is a

1871
01:40:09,360 --> 01:40:12,720
Speaker 2: winner simply because he invested his time in something he

1872
01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:18,479
Speaker 2: thoroughly enjoyed and loved every minute of it. Now compare

1873
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:20,840
Speaker 2: him to a person who looks at a sport as

1874
01:40:20,880 --> 01:40:23,559
Speaker 2: an opportunity to make big money and be set for

1875
01:40:23,600 --> 01:40:26,559
Speaker 2: a life of ease. So he drives himself to fulfill

1876
01:40:26,600 --> 01:40:30,479
Speaker 2: that obsession. Whether he reaches his goals or not, he

1877
01:40:30,560 --> 01:40:33,840
Speaker 2: is a loser, for he has not enjoyed his life.

1878
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:36,600
Speaker 2: Even if he reaches his goal and makes millions, that

1879
01:40:36,840 --> 01:40:40,880
Speaker 2: time was wasted. And if he does not reach his goal,

1880
01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:46,080
Speaker 2: he has a total failure. Consider it seriously, the only

1881
01:40:46,240 --> 01:40:49,400
Speaker 2: tangible thing we really have that is ours is our

1882
01:40:49,439 --> 01:40:53,519
Speaker 2: own lifetime. My answer is that I never started out.

1883
01:40:53,320 --> 01:40:54,799
Speaker 1: To be a killer of big bucks.

1884
01:40:55,280 --> 01:40:58,600
Speaker 2: It's just a natural evolution of my respect for and

1885
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:02,120
Speaker 2: enjoyment of the outdoor, a love for shooting the bow,

1886
01:41:02,960 --> 01:41:05,040
Speaker 2: and trying to do both to the best.

1887
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:05,559
Speaker 1: Of my ability.

1888
01:41:06,200 --> 01:41:09,479
Speaker 2: I am having a great time, and each success is

1889
01:41:09,520 --> 01:41:12,559
Speaker 2: not so much an achievement as it is a blessing

1890
01:41:13,160 --> 01:41:16,799
Speaker 2: to be thankful for. And with that I will wrap

1891
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:20,360
Speaker 2: up this profile of Roger Rothar.

1892
01:41:21,160 --> 01:41:23,720
Speaker 1: I hope you found this helpful and interesting.

1893
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:28,240
Speaker 2: I have been so thankful for this opportunity to get

1894
01:41:28,280 --> 01:41:31,840
Speaker 2: to know one of our predecessors, one of our pioneers.

1895
01:41:33,040 --> 01:41:37,160
Speaker 2: I certainly did not know why Roger was so influential

1896
01:41:37,400 --> 01:41:40,880
Speaker 2: on so many before this, but now I one hundred

1897
01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:44,040
Speaker 2: percent do. I think he has shared something in these

1898
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:46,040
Speaker 2: pages of these books, and hopefully I've been able to

1899
01:41:46,080 --> 01:41:48,680
Speaker 2: be able to share with you in this podcast, not

1900
01:41:48,800 --> 01:41:52,600
Speaker 2: only the tools for being able to tag dear to

1901
01:41:52,640 --> 01:41:55,960
Speaker 2: be a more quote unquote successful deer hunter, but I

1902
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:59,800
Speaker 2: think he shares here how to be a good and

1903
01:42:00,120 --> 01:42:05,720
Speaker 2: satisfied and thankful and all around deer hunter, which has

1904
01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:07,720
Speaker 2: a lot more to do with what he mentions there

1905
01:42:07,720 --> 01:42:10,240
Speaker 2: at the end than it has to do with what's

1906
01:42:10,280 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 2: hanging on your wall or how many big buck pictures

1907
01:42:13,080 --> 01:42:16,240
Speaker 2: you have on social media. So I hope that, maybe

1908
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:18,920
Speaker 2: more than anything, is what sticks with all of us.

1909
01:42:19,680 --> 01:42:22,559
Speaker 2: And I hope you enjoyed this, and until next time,

1910
01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:27,280
Speaker 2: thanks for being here and stay wired to hunt