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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've been paying attention, Tot, but

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Speaker 1: I feel like fashion and shopping is everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like every social media site is incorporating

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Speaker 2: shopping onto it now, like you can shop on Facebook, Instagram.

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Speaker 2: I'm accidentally shopping on Instagram. I was like, oh, did.

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Speaker 1: I just thought I was liking this post? I'm viewing

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Speaker 1: a shop.

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Speaker 2: Happens so quickly and how did I get here?

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Speaker 1: Yes, And I have to admit I have really trained

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Speaker 1: my algorithm to give me the outfits. Now you see

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Speaker 1: what I have on. But I'm somehow in fashion Instagram. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing amazing articles about the life of Andre Leon Tally,

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff about Virgil. I don't own anything

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Speaker 1: off white, but the people I follow do I know.

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Speaker 2: And then you see so many up and coming folks

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Speaker 2: that are making their own brands. Honifa. Yes, that came

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Speaker 2: up on my feet and now I'm obsessed. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if I can afford anything but lovely.

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Speaker 1: To look at tel Far just dropped a new bag too,

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Speaker 1: and it's about six one hundred dollars. My timeline isn't

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Speaker 1: a tizzy about it, so it's only right that we

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Speaker 1: put shopping and fashion under the Microscope. I'm TT and

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Speaker 1: I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. This is Dope Labs.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science,

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Speaker 2: pop culture, and a healthy dose of friendship.

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Speaker 1: This week, we're talking all about fashion. Now, it's no

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Speaker 1: secret that we love to shop.

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Speaker 2: Yes, a lot of our bonding in the early stages

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Speaker 2: of our friendship was sending each other links or screenshot

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Speaker 2: of different outfits that we saw on Tumblr that was like, ooh, girl,

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Speaker 2: this would look cute on you.

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Speaker 1: Yes. So in today's episode, we're going to do a

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Speaker 1: deep dive on shopping, and specifically, we're taking a look

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Speaker 1: at how retail has changed in the past decade.

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Speaker 2: It seems like it's gone through a lot of changes

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Speaker 2: and then the pandemic came and really shook things up.

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Speaker 2: So we're really curious about what those changes are and

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Speaker 2: why they're happening.

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Speaker 1: So let's get into the recitation. I think if we

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Speaker 1: take all of our recent shopping experiences, there are probably

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Speaker 1: some key takeaways of what we know about shopping lately.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that we're doing a lot of online

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Speaker 2: shopping to distance ourselves from people and for convenience.

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Speaker 1: Right, and if we do shop online, it's more likely

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Speaker 1: to be a hybrid. We're not just walking around aimlessly

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Speaker 1: in the store. I do my research ahead of time, baby,

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Speaker 1: I'm checking multiple sites, so I'm able to make a

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Speaker 1: b line to exactly the right rack in the store

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Speaker 1: for the exact item.

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Speaker 2: I love that feature. You could say, is it in

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Speaker 2: this store that is near where I live?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Say yes? Or no it's not within thirty miles. Okay,

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Speaker 2: well I'm not going there.

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Speaker 1: You have it.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of ads on social media, and influencers

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Speaker 2: are constantly pushing product, especially with the changes in social media,

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Speaker 2: like Instagram has made some updates to its platform that

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Speaker 2: prioritizes shopping. So Instagram is slowly but surely morphing into

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Speaker 2: an online retail store. Along with your best friend's photos

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Speaker 2: from their wedding.

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Speaker 1: There's just a lot less judgment around shopping than there

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Speaker 1: used to be. The pandemic saw people really leaning on

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Speaker 1: some retail therapy.

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Speaker 2: When things started to open up to I think people

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Speaker 2: really started buying a lot and also disclosing that they

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Speaker 2: were buying a lot. I saw a meme that was

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Speaker 2: like my budget for next month is zero dollars, do

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Speaker 2: not invite me anywhere.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I think this is great anecdotal evidence that things

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Speaker 1: that we've noticed and trends we've noticed in our own

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Speaker 1: friend groups. But there are still other things that I

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Speaker 1: want to know, like how has retail changed not just

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Speaker 1: in the pandemic, but in the past decade, and then

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Speaker 1: how the pandemic change it even further.

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Speaker 2: That's a really good question. And how has the shopping

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Speaker 2: experience changed because of it?

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Speaker 1: And what are people looking for? And what's motivating people

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Speaker 1: to shop these days? We saw we could do it

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Speaker 1: all from home, so how are they being marketed to

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Speaker 1: what's convincing them to go in the stores now?

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Speaker 2: And I would really like to get a snapshot of

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Speaker 2: today's biggest retail trends. Fast fashion and affordable luxury. These

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Speaker 2: are new terms that I hear a lot of people

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Speaker 2: throwing around. Yes, I'm not entirely sure what they actually

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Speaker 2: actually mean. What we always hear in the same sentence

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Speaker 2: as fast fashion is sustainability, right, how fast fashion might

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Speaker 2: be impacting our environment and our carbon footprint. So I

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Speaker 2: think this would be a great opportunity for us to

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Speaker 2: kind of split this episode into two so that we

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Speaker 2: can make sure that we hit all of the major points.

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Speaker 1: You're right, TT. We can start out here talking about

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Speaker 1: how the trends of shopping have changed, and later we

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Speaker 1: can come back and really dive into sustainability, manufacturing, really

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Speaker 1: getting into understanding what has to happen now and in

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Speaker 1: the future. Let's jump into the dissection.

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Speaker 2: Our guest for this episode is Barbara Khan. She's the

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Speaker 2: author of The Shopping Revolution.

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Speaker 3: I'm Barbara Khan. I'm a professor of marketing at the

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Speaker 3: Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, and for the

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Speaker 3: last fifteen twenty years, I've been following the retailing industry

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Speaker 3: and following fashion.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back pre COVID, back to when shopping was

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Speaker 1: a thing. When I think back, TT, I can remember

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Speaker 1: when we used to go to the mall.

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Speaker 2: Yes, in grad school. Yeah, going to the mall was

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Speaker 2: a great pastime.

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Speaker 1: And now we are going right to eye message and

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Speaker 1: sharing those links.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm only on my phone.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it really makes me wonder what's been happening to stores.

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Speaker 2: We asked doctor con to give us an overview of

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Speaker 2: the retail industry in recent years.

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Speaker 3: In twenty seventeen that was the year that was dubbed

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Speaker 3: the retail apocalypse because eighty six hundred stores closed that year.

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Speaker 3: Macy's department stores, for example, were closing, and those were

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Speaker 3: really important stores to close because they anchor the mall.

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Speaker 3: So you kind of saw this reverberating effect where a

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Speaker 3: lot of these other stores closed. Then you might remember

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Speaker 3: Toys r Us closed, Circuit City closed, Radio Shot close.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people were saying it was the retail apocalypse,

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Speaker 3: the end of physical retail. Now I wrote a book

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Speaker 3: and I called it the Shopping Revolution, and my point

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Speaker 3: at the time was not that this was the death

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Speaker 3: of this retail, but that it was the death of

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Speaker 3: bad retail.

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Speaker 2: So what does she mean by bad retail? What exactly

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Speaker 2: caused the stores to start closing in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 3: You're not allowed to just sit around and do nothing

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Speaker 3: and hope the customers come to you.

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Speaker 1: Doctor con says that the retail apocalypse happened for three

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Speaker 1: main reasons.

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Speaker 3: One was the online reason. We definitely saw the rise

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Speaker 3: of Amazon and the rise of people instead of shopping

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Speaker 3: in physical stores, some people were shopping or doing some

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Speaker 3: of their shopping at least in e commerce.

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Speaker 2: Economists call this the Amazon effect.

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Speaker 3: The other thing that we were seeing was people weren't

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Speaker 3: shopping in Macy's because they were going to TJ Max.

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Speaker 3: They were going to Target, they were going to Walmart,

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Speaker 3: They're going to Ross to Burlington.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I am they they are meeting.

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Speaker 3: The clothes aren't that different in Target or TJ Max.

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Speaker 3: They're exactly the same clothes actually, but they're much cheaper.

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Speaker 3: Why would I want to pay that price in the

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Speaker 3: department store?

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Speaker 1: I said, We're all about the deals, baby.

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Speaker 2: It's also really great when you can find something affordable

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Speaker 2: and you don't have to pay a high ticket price

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Speaker 2: just to get this thing. So like going through the

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Speaker 2: racks at Target and you find something that you feel

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Speaker 2: like is just perfect and it is affordable, that always

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Speaker 2: feels good.

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Speaker 1: So the retail apocalypse happened because people were buying Mora

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Speaker 1: online and they're looking for better deals. What's the third reason?

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Speaker 3: The other thing, and this one I think is really interesting,

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Speaker 3: fundamentally interesting. A lot of what sold in department stores

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Speaker 3: is cosmetics mean beauty, and people were not shopping for

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Speaker 3: their beauty and cosmetics in the Macy's anymore. Where were

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Speaker 3: they going. They were going to Sophora. They were going

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Speaker 3: to Altam.

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Speaker 1: And since the pandemic hit, the rate of stores closing

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Speaker 1: has dramatically accelerated. According to doctor Con, two hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: stores closed in March and April twenty twenty when COVID

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Speaker 1: led to a ton of shutdowns.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and a lot of stores didn't the pandemic. But

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Speaker 2: that doesn't mean people stop shopping. Pandemic or not. People

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Speaker 2: still want new clothes. Doctor Con mentioned Sephora a minute ago,

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Speaker 2: and I want to talk about that a little more

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Speaker 2: because it seems like the experience of shopping has really

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Speaker 2: changed and Sephora has been a main driver of that.

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Speaker 2: So what's the difference between shopping at Macy's, for example,

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Speaker 2: and Sephora.

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Speaker 3: What I would argue is that Macy's was selling in

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Speaker 3: what I'm going to call a product focused or a

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Speaker 3: sales push approach. So if you think about shopping for

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Speaker 3: cosmetics and Macy's, what happens you go into the store,

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Speaker 3: if you want to try something on, you got to

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Speaker 3: talk to a salesperson. She's got to get it from

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Speaker 3: behind the counter. Now, these salespeople are on commission. You

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Speaker 3: don't have to be too sophisticated to instantly know they're

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Speaker 3: pushing product at you, they're up selling you, they're cross

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Speaker 3: selling you. Sephora is nothing like that. The salespeople are

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Speaker 3: not on commission. They're honestly there just to help you.

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Speaker 3: And all the product was out, you could try anything

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Speaker 3: on yourself. You could bring all your friends, put on

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Speaker 3: makeup and leave and nobody would give you any.

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Speaker 1: BUSHFA doctor con calls this customer focus experiential retail, meaning

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Speaker 1: it's not about price or the product, but how you

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Speaker 1: feel when you're in the store. So the shift from

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Speaker 1: a store like Macy's to a store like Sephora is

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Speaker 1: from product focused to more customer focus to retail.

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Speaker 2: It makes sense to me. I like to buy a

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Speaker 2: new makeup, and what I don't like is when I

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Speaker 2: go into a store and the customer sales rep is

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Speaker 2: trying to convince me to buy something that I don't

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Speaker 2: want to buy, or saying, oh, you know that green

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Speaker 2: blush is not gonna look good on you. I saw

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Speaker 2: Rihanna wearing green blush. I want to wear green blush too.

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Speaker 2: Mind your business. You're ruining my experience.

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Speaker 1: And even if you want that green blush tt it's

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Speaker 1: not just that in store experience that helped sepphor Win.

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Speaker 1: It's also about the online retail experience as well.

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Speaker 3: So for also behind the scenes was very sophisticated online.

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Speaker 3: A lot of what's happened in makeup, beauty and fashion

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Speaker 3: has come from the bottom up. So some of the

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Speaker 3: biggest opinion leaders in what's new in makeup, we're sixteen

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Speaker 3: year old high school girls. And where do you see that?

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Speaker 3: You see that in YouTube?

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Speaker 1: YouTube, yes, and Instagram and TikTok, really all over the internet.

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Speaker 2: Every single corner of the Internet. The shift from in

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Speaker 2: person to online shopping has really taken off in the

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Speaker 2: past year, and even faster than predicted because COVID. But

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Speaker 2: it's not just because of COVID. It's also reflective of

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Speaker 2: shoppers changing preferences and habits.

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Speaker 1: And at this point doctor con actually flipped the script

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Speaker 1: for a minute and asked us some questions about our

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Speaker 1: personal shopping habits online and how we make decisions about

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Speaker 1: what tobias customers.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious, how much do you trust what the online

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Speaker 3: experience would be. So they're using augmented reality a little bit.

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Speaker 3: You can put makeup on your face, not for real,

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Speaker 3: but like it seems like it's for real and also

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Speaker 3: Athleta or Lululemon or those they'll have these different models

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Speaker 3: and different shapes and sizes. They'll tell you what size

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Speaker 3: they wear, and then you can see how clothes fit

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Speaker 3: on them and maybe guess how they fit on you.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious, is that working as sophisticated customers? Do you

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Speaker 3: think that's a good experience? Yes?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, that is exactly what I do. If I see

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Speaker 2: something cute, the first thing I do is go down

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Speaker 2: the page and look at all the details. I want

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Speaker 2: to know the model's height, the materials that this stuff

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Speaker 2: is made from. If she's five to eleven, I'm five

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Speaker 2: to five. I know that skirt might not hit me

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Speaker 2: at the same part of my leg? What about Yuzekiah.

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Speaker 1: Same, same, same. And it's not even just clothing, it's

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Speaker 1: across multiple categories. I want to see what this lipstick

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Speaker 1: shade is going to look like on my skin color,

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Speaker 1: my skin tone, So four, lets me do that. I'm

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Speaker 1: laying in the bed putting on blush. It's not green,

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Speaker 1: but I'm still trying it on at home.

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Speaker 2: I also like that now some places are even including

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Speaker 2: like a short video of the model walking in the clothes,

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Speaker 2: so you can see like, oh, this actually isn't as

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Speaker 2: flowy as I thought. This is actually a little bit

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Speaker 2: more rigid, or oh this doesn't really sit well, or

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Speaker 2: there's some buncheon when you walk like. These are all

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Speaker 2: things that I would like to know before purchasing.

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Speaker 1: Another feature that I'm really enjoying is augmented reality. I

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Speaker 1: want to see what this is going to look like

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Speaker 1: in my house? Is this too big? Is it too small?

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Speaker 2: Do I do that with every pair of glasses that

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Speaker 2: I buy. Before I purchase, I do the augmented reality,

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Speaker 2: and I put those glasses on my face like through

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Speaker 2: my phone, Like you can upload a picture and then

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Speaker 2: put yeah glasses on yourself. So I take a picture

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Speaker 2: of my face straight on and then I upload that

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Speaker 2: and I can see what each pair of glasses would

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Speaker 2: look like on me.

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Speaker 1: And that's exactly what Sephora is doing when I'm laying

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Speaker 1: in putting on blesh It's augmented reality.

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Speaker 2: And the other big thing that's changed for me is

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Speaker 2: that shopping is definitely more of a solitary experience. Whereas

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Speaker 2: I used to go to the mall with friends, now

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Speaker 2: I do all of my shopping under the covers by

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Speaker 2: the light of the.

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Speaker 1: Moon, and not only has the experience of shopping change,

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Speaker 1: but it feels like the ideas of fashion are also changing.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to talk all about it right after

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Speaker 1: the break.

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Speaker 2: We're back, and now that we've talked about how things

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Speaker 2: have changed, both in stores and online, we're going to

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Speaker 2: zoom in on the state of fashion today. We're noticing

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Speaker 2: a lot of different trends in the world of fashion,

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Speaker 2: so let's talk about it.

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Speaker 1: One thing I've heard a lot about lately is the

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Speaker 1: idea of affordable luxury or luxury items that are more

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Speaker 1: accessible than how we typically think about luxury.

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Speaker 2: That immediately makes me think of Telfar.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: Telfar is a brand that was founded by a Liberian

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Speaker 2: man named Telfar Clemens, and he's started making these really

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Speaker 2: beautiful bags and everybody wanted to get their hands on them.

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Speaker 2: But they're not luxury luxury price bags like a Gucci

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Speaker 2: bag or whatever. They're definitely more affordable, but people are

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Speaker 2: classifying it as affordable luxury. I mean, even Beyonce was

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Speaker 2: seen wearing a Telfar bag.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I've seen something similar to that, providing

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Speaker 1: the luxury experience of like unboxing and unpacking getting it first.

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Speaker 1: I've seen that with the Glamahollock brand, which is by

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Speaker 1: a woman out of Detroit, Mia Ray, who I've been

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Speaker 1: following for years since we were in grad school TT

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Speaker 1: and I've just seen her grow that brand over the

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Speaker 1: past five or six years that I've been following, and

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Speaker 1: it's just really cool to see people are rushing to

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Speaker 1: her page when she releases a new collector and selling out.

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Speaker 1: And there's also a community very similar to the tail

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Speaker 1: far community you see where people are like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: saw another person with til far Beg. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: this community around affordable luxury that makes it something that

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Speaker 1: you want to be a part of.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it like takes the lux out of the price tag,

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Speaker 2: but you still get a really high quality product, which

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Speaker 2: is amazing because sometimes you trying to equate, you know,

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Speaker 2: something not being as expensive with low quality. But what

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Speaker 2: they're showing is you can have it all.

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Speaker 1: We talked to dot tor con about how luxury is

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Speaker 1: being redefined.

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Speaker 3: Historically, luxury was very much top down and the industry

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Speaker 3: told you what to wear, The designers told you what

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Speaker 3: to wear. It was very high and it was very exclusive.

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Speaker 3: People couldn't go to fashion shows. You had to be

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Speaker 3: Beyonce probably to go to a fashion show. And it

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Speaker 3: made sense. What do you know about fashion? Nothing? What

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Speaker 3: do these designers know about fashion? Everything? So I'm gonna

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Speaker 3: listen to what they say. The other thing that's going

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Speaker 3: on is this bottom up fashion. The influencers like Kanye West,

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Speaker 3: you know, I mean, he really influences fashion. His collaboration

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Speaker 3: with Gap. Whether that will work, I don't know, but

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Speaker 3: it is interesting and deciding who makes fashion. Now we're

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Speaker 3: seeing everything happening.

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Speaker 2: This is such a great point because what this does,

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Speaker 2: this bottom up approach that fashion is starting to shift

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Speaker 2: a little bit towards, is that it gives people access

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Speaker 2: to luxury everyone, so no matter what your income level is,

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Speaker 2: you might be able to experience that slice of life.

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Speaker 1: I'd argue that fashion has always been bottom up. Now

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Speaker 1: where that credit comes in can make it feel like

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Speaker 1: it hasn't always been bottom up. But we know where

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Speaker 1: a lot of these influences are coming from. So it's

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Speaker 1: great to be able to see everybody getting the slice

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Speaker 1: of the luxury pie.

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Speaker 3: Like you said, and there were tears. There were the

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Speaker 3: very high end, probably a highest as Louis Vuitton, there

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Speaker 3: mez Chanel. Then there were the mid tier, which is

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Speaker 3: affordable luxury. I think if Tory Birch and that some

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Speaker 3: of the high end luxury brands had an affordable line

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Speaker 3: like OURMANI would have AX. Then there's the TJ Maxis

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Speaker 3: of the world and the outlets of the world.

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Speaker 2: This reminds me of like when Vera Wang collaed with

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Speaker 2: H and M. All those items sold out like immediately.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how anybody got anything, but I know

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Speaker 2: some people who did. But then it also reminds me

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Speaker 2: of Christopher John Rogers who has a collection with Target.

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Speaker 2: So you're getting these really beautiful outfits dresses, but at

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Speaker 2: a more affordable price, at a Target price or at

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Speaker 2: H and M price, So it gives everyone access to

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Speaker 2: these really lux brands like Vera Wang. I mean, honestly,

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Speaker 2: come on, that's crazy.

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Speaker 3: The one I remember in particular was the MASONI one,

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Speaker 3: and that crashed the website because MATHSONI is so identifiable,

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Speaker 3: the fabric is so clear, people know what it is.

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Speaker 3: I think, like, wow, is that gonna work? Is that

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Speaker 3: a good idea? Why would MASONI want to go to Target?

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Speaker 3: And it turned out. It was brilliant. It was great

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Speaker 3: for Massoni actually, because one of the things that makes

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Speaker 3: luxury something people really aspire to is that people know

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Speaker 3: about it. So even if you couldn't afford Massoni at

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Speaker 3: the very high price level, you'd appreciate it. If you

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Speaker 3: saw somebody else wearing it and having it come to

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Speaker 3: Target would broaden the appeal of the luxury play. Target

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Speaker 3: became so trendy, so targe, so fashioned, and you're seeing

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Speaker 3: a lot of those kinds of things happen, interesting collaborations

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Speaker 3: like Louis Vautone, which is a very high end brand,

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Speaker 3: partnering with Supreme, which is a street brand.

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Speaker 1: When we talk about affordability, another thing that comes to

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Speaker 1: mind is fast fashion.

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Speaker 3: I think a fast fashion in two different buckets. One

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Speaker 3: is what I think Zara does, which is go to

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Speaker 3: the fashion shows, see what the designers are doing, instantly

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Speaker 3: copy it and get it in the store as quickly

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Speaker 3: as possible. Then there's the other things which Forever twenty

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Speaker 3: one and H and M more more like, which I

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Speaker 3: think of this fast fashion or almost the throwaway culture.

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Speaker 3: So that idea was come up with the trends really

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Speaker 3: quickly and cheaply, make them in the store so everybody

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Speaker 3: can wear them really fast. Don't make them that well,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't matter because it's so stylish. People aren't going

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Speaker 3: to want to wear them for that law. And if

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Speaker 3: they fall apart, they fall apart. Who cares.

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Speaker 2: What Barbara is saying is that fast fashion can be

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Speaker 2: considered fast in two different ways. It's how fast it's

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Speaker 2: produced and in how fast it's consumed and then discarded.

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Speaker 2: And those stores she mentioned in the latter example, Forever

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Speaker 2: twenty one and H and M, along with a Sauce

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Speaker 2: and Chinese retailers she and, are now being called ultra

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Speaker 2: fast fashion brands due to the sheer speed at which

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Speaker 2: they can produce new trends. Retailers like Asoce drop at

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Speaker 2: least five thousand new styles a week. That's crazy, and

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Speaker 2: she In offers seven hundred to one thousand new styles daily.

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Speaker 1: That's too much fashion. I'm sorry, that's too many outfits.

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Speaker 2: And then when you see the people purchasing from she And,

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Speaker 2: they're getting huge bags of clothes. Their shipments are just

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Speaker 2: huge because it's really really affordable and they can get

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Speaker 2: a lot of trends basically overnight. If you see Marseille

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Speaker 2: Martin wearing a really cute dress. Chances are you can

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Speaker 2: go on she In and find a knockoff of that

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Speaker 2: same dress for a fraction of the price and get

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Speaker 2: it in a few days.

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Speaker 1: That's really wild to me, though, How are they producing

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Speaker 1: this stuff so fast? Now? Granted I'm no dressmaker, I'm

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Speaker 1: no seamstress, but I have taken a sewing class, and

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Speaker 1: it feels like it should take a long time to

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Speaker 1: just sew in general, and that's assuming you already have

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Speaker 1: the fabric made. This is wild to me. I think

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Speaker 1: the other side of the fast fashion and ultra fashion

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Speaker 1: lanes on social media is this countering kind of slow fashion,

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Speaker 1: really curated closets, kind of sustainable consumption of style that

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Speaker 1: I've been seeing with some of the influencers on Instagram too.

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Speaker 1: This was like my introduction to okay, girl, get it together.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever see people and they just look like

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Speaker 1: they always have their look together, like they have a

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Speaker 1: staple style. Those are the people I started following. I

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Speaker 1: was like, how can I do that? But a lot

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Speaker 1: of this really depends on different factors, including budget, right,

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Speaker 1: So if you're trying to buy things that are sustainably made.

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Speaker 1: You have to have some sustained dollars. It costs more.

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Speaker 2: You gotta have sustainability pockets.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you have to kind of get in where you

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Speaker 1: fit in and find what works for you.

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Speaker 2: It's not to say that if you purchase from San

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Speaker 2: you're automatically not sustainable. Yes, probably in the production of

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Speaker 2: the clothing it is not sustainable. But if you were

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Speaker 2: to purchase something from San and you keep it and

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Speaker 2: you wear it, or when you're finished wearing it, you

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Speaker 2: repurpose it for something else, there's another way that you

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Speaker 2: can be sustainable on the back end. Not everybody has

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Speaker 2: the dollars to be able to say, oh, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to go into this store and buy this top that

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Speaker 2: is two hundred dollars because it is sustainable. Not everybody

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Speaker 2: has that.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a great point. There are a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways to think about sustainability, and we have to

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Speaker 1: save that for part two.

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Speaker 2: It's clear that the motivation and influences or influencers behind

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Speaker 2: our purchases have also been changing. We talked to doctor

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Speaker 2: con about what and who is driving our shopping decisions.

439
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 3: So let's talk about it at a bunch of different levels.

440
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 3: So one level is the TikTok level that you're talking about,

441
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 3: which is very interesting. It's starting to happen here in

442
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: the US, but it was rampant in China. So one

443
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 3: of the things that happened during COVID in China was

444
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 3: an incredible acceleration of live streaming. And you're seeing these

445
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 3: people who live stream that are these what they call

446
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 3: key opinion leaders. So those are the KOLs, and they're

447
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 3: the big influencers, and they're some really really big, tremendous

448
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 3: ones in China that live stream every single day, maybe

449
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 3: for four hours a day. It's absolutely a business and

450
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 3: they are communicating with their customers in real time.

451
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 1: You know, the live streaming part is really an interesting

452
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 1: development because that makes it feel really personal, like I'm

453
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: on FaceTime with this person.

454
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 3: And really what characterizes these KOLs is authenticity. You kind

455
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 3: of have to really believe them and trust them in

456
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 3: order for them to be so influential, which is a

457
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 3: little bit of the noxim war, because as they get

458
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: to be so big and probably rich, how authentic are they?

459
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 3: So you have seen the move to what in China

460
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 3: are called kocs, which are key opinion customers, and that's

461
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 3: different than the KOLs. Maybe they have five ten thousand followers,

462
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 3: is not nearly as big, and they're not being paid,

463
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 3: but they are sophisticated customers and they're quite influential because

464
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 3: people like to hear what other customers say.

465
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 2: Right, I always read the reviews. Hearing from customers who

466
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 2: aren't getting paid to tell me what to think is

467
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 2: a huge motivator, and I think a motivator for everybody

468
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 2: these days.

469
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: Yes, I don't know about you, but when I'm looking

470
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: through the reviews, I like when people post photos. People

471
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: are now uploading videos and reviewing things videos, I feel

472
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 1: like all of that is part of the community of shopping. Absolutely,

473
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: And so even though the actual act of like purchase

474
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: and closed in some way has become more isolated or

475
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: like an individualized experience, we're not necessarily making our decisions

476
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 1: in isolation. We're constantly being influenced online, even if it's

477
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: social media advertisements, or we're seeking guidance from someone on YouTube,

478
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: or you're writing me back and saying no, girl, that

479
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: looks crazy. You know, we're getting input from all these places.

480
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it also makes me think about another big

481
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: trend we're seeing in today's fashion climate, which is drop

482
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 2: culture and sneaker culture. Beyonce ab We'll put out some

483
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: Instagram photos and videos, whole campaign ads for another line,

484
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 2: and then they drop it for one day it's online

485
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 2: and then maybe in some select stores, and so everybody

486
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: is in a mad rush to get their hands on

487
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 2: those items.

488
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: We ask doctor con to explain to us the principle

489
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: behind drop culture and just how much power it has

490
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: for brands.

491
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,439
Speaker 3: That's based on the psychological principle of scarcity. You know,

492
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 3: if things are scarce, value it more, and sometimes you

493
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 3: want it just because nobody else can have it. Drop

494
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 3: culture was pretty interesting because yes it was about getting

495
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 3: one of the few products that were available, but the

496
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,479
Speaker 3: drop culture also was an experience. Waiting on that line

497
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 3: and waiting for the drop was fun. So the other

498
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 3: idea about luxury is not only owning the material product,

499
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 3: but being part of this exclusive experience.

500
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: Even though I would say we are sophisticated consumers t T,

501
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: I still feel like I learned a lot. There was

502
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: a lot I didn't really pay attention to. And we

503
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: need to give Sepphoria It's flowers.

504
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: Yes, they are blazing the trail for all things online. Shopping.

505
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 1: One of the things that I'm appreciating a little bit

506
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 1: more is just how much more inclusive mainstream fashion at

507
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: least is becoming. Just how many different types of experiences

508
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: brands are now catering to. I'm all for it, whether

509
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: that means affordable luxury, whether that means a variety of

510
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: shopping experiences in store, a hybrid version, all online, whether

511
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,719
Speaker 1: you want a big influencer to tell you what to do,

512
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,120
Speaker 1: or you want to be in a small little community

513
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: with a micro influencer. It just feels like everything is

514
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: possible now, it's all on the table.

515
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and defining luxury for yourself. I feel like back

516
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 2: in the day, luxury was defined by not just the

517
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: top down process like we were talking about, but just

518
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: like you know, what you see on television and what

519
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: all of the cool kids are wearing and everything like that.

520
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: I know I couldn't afford that stuff, so I didn't

521
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 2: have any of those things. But now it's like changing

522
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: the game where everybody, no matter what walk of life

523
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: you're coming from, can experience things that are lux and

524
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: so I think it's really and it's a really great

525
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: experience for everybody to be able to experience that part

526
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: of consumerism.

527
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: Okay, it's time for one thing where we share something

528
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: we liked or loved with you, Titi. What's your one thing?

529
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: My one thing this week is a woman named Imani

530
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: Barbaran and she goes by crutches and spice on TikTok

531
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: and she's at Imani Underscore barbering on Twitter. She is

532
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: black and disabled and she has really been lazing the

533
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: trail for disability awareness, especially during the pandemic. That's when

534
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: she was put on my for you page on TikTok.

535
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 2: She is amazing. She's very smart. You should definitely be

536
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: following her on all of her social because she is

537
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: a thought leader and very thought provoking. She is giving

538
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 2: it to the politicians and making sure that disability awareness

539
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: is at the forefront. I've learned so much from her.

540
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: What's your one Thing?

541
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: My one thing is the Institute of Black Imagination and

542
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: so this is a virtual hub that you can find

543
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: at Blackimagination dot com and it is the brainchild of

544
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: a lot of great artists, thought leaders, but specifically I

545
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: think it's the brainchild of Dario Calmes. Dario is like

546
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: a photographer, just a mastermind everything, everything, okay, yes, So

547
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: recently Blackimagination dot Com launched and there's so much to

548
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: explore there. I love it. That's it for Lap fifty two.

549
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: Call us at two zero two five six seven seven

550
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: zero two eight and tell us what you thought, or

551
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: give us another idea for a different lab you think

552
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: we should do. We really love hearing from you. That's

553
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: two o two five six seven seven zero two eight.

554
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 2: And don't forget there's so much more for you to

555
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: dig into on our website. There will be a cheat

556
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: cheat there for today's lab and additional links and resources

557
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: in the show notes. Plus you can sign up for

558
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 2: our newsletter, so check it out at Dope labspodcast dot com.

559
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: Special thanks to today's guest expert, Barbara Con.

560
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: You can find her on Twitter at Barbara Con b

561
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: A R B A R.

562
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: A k A h N and make sure you check

563
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: out her book The Shopping Revolution, the updated and expanded edition,

564
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 2: How Retailers Succeed in an Era of Endless Disruption accelerated

565
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: by COVID nineteen. You can find us on Twitter and

566
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 2: Instagram at Dope Labs Podcast.

567
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: And TT's on Twitter and Instagram at d R Underscore

568
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: T S h O.

569
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: And you can find Zakia on Twitter and Instagram. At

570
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 2: z said So Dope Labs is a Spotify original production

571
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 2: from Mega Owned Media Group.

572
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: Our producers are Jenny Rattlett Mast and Lydia Smith of

573
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: Wave Runner Studios.

574
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: Editing in sound design by Rob Smerciak.

575
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: Mixing by Hannes Brown.

576
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex

577
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: Sugier from Spotify. Creative producers Candice Manriquez Wren and Corin Gilliard.

578
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Shirley Ramos Yasmin of Fifi, Camu Elolia,

579
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 2: Till krat Key and Brian Marquis.

580
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: Executive producers from Mega Oh Media Group are us T

581
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: t Show, Dia and Zakiah Wattley