1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:06,399 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Radio this weekend on the podcast You guys give me 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: grief when I say I have an extra special guest, 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: But once again I have an extra special guest. Sir 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: Martin Franklin has such a fascinating career. He started out 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: working with his father taking apart conglomerates and later decided 7 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: he would rather build companies than disassemble them, and put 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: together quite an amazing streak. You might be familiar with 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Benson I Care. The returns on that were one thousand eight. 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: He also put together Jardan Corporation, which generated returns of 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: over five thousand percent. He's built a number of companies 12 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: and really over the past twenty years turned what was 13 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: known as blank check companies or SPACs into quite a 14 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: respectable way to put patient capital in place to make 15 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: long term acquisitions. Different from private equity, which he describes 16 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: as renting assets. He wants to own assets on behalf 17 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: of himself and his investors. Really just an incredibly fascinating career. 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: He's done so many really interesting things and his track 19 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: record is quite astonishing. So, with no further ado, my 20 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: conversation with the founder and CEO of Mariposa Capital. Martin 21 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: Franklin VI is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholtz on 22 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: Boomberg Radio. Our extra special guest this week is Sir 23 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: Martin Franklin. He is the founder and chief executive officer 24 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: of Mariposa Capital. Previously, he was CEO of Jordan Corporation 25 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: Benson I Care. He was named Antigua and Barbudos Special 26 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Economic Envoy and was knighted as a high degree of 27 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: Night and Cross. Sir Martin Franklin, Welcome, It's bloom book. 28 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: Hi Marry, how are you? Thank you? Pretty good? Pretty good? 29 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: So I wanted to include some of the more eclectic 30 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: things in your background because your career path is is 31 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: a little unusual. When someone asked you what you do 32 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: for a living, how do you answer them? It's never 33 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: very easy. I describe myself as a business builder. You 34 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: can't sit that on your immigration form when they ask 35 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: you to describe your employment. But that's that's kind of 36 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: what I am. A bit of an operator and a 37 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: and an investor. I guess a hybrid. So you began 38 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: working on hostile takeovers at a pretty young age with 39 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: your father. How did that impact your views on finance. 40 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,839 Speaker 1: You know, I think I learned a lot in those 41 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: early years. One of the things I learned with the 42 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: corporate headquarters for a bit of a waste of time 43 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: and money that you hasn't really changed. My father always 44 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: used to say that the quality of a corporation is 45 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: an inverse proportion to its location from its headquarters. In 46 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: other words, the further further away they were from the headquarters, 47 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: the better the business. Often those rules are true, but 48 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: that was probably the biggest thing. I mean, what my 49 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 1: father and Jimmy Gouldvis did in those days was the 50 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: necessary to deconglomerate the conglomerates of the sixties and seventies 51 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: and certainly served its purpose. One of those conglomerates you 52 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: were appointed CEO of was d R G, and you 53 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: were assigned to break up the conglomerate via asset sales. 54 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: What was that experience like? Highly unusual? I mean, I 55 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: think that was only about twenty four or twenty five 56 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: years old. Probably did more M and A than most 57 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: investment bankers in that in that time, but it really 58 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: was quite an experience. What what we took the headquarters 59 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: from a hundred and ten people down to seven, and 60 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: we had certain businesses within the group didn't even know 61 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: that it has happened. You know, the underlying businesses were 62 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: of varying quality, but there was no doubt that they 63 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: were all very appreciative of being sort of left free 64 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: from the shackles of a fairly poorly run conglomerate. So 65 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: you return to the United States, where the idea was, 66 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 1: rather than break up companies, you wanted to build something. 67 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 1: Kind of reminds me of a key plot point from 68 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: the movie Pretty Woman. What what was the motivation of 69 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: um saying let's rather than deconglomerize these mashed up companies, 70 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: let's see what we can build. How did that go? 71 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: You know, I'll tell you I had a very close 72 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: and still have a very close relationship with my father, 73 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: But like any good son, I kind of wanted to 74 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: blaze my own path. And one of the things that 75 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: was very apparent to me was it was much less 76 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: fulfilling to break up a company. And you know, when 77 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: you're building something, everybody is sort of rooting for you. 78 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: The investment community is rooting for you, employees are rooting 79 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: for you, the establishment is rot routing for you. And 80 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, when I started on that path of building 81 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: Benson I Care. It was just all the energy was 82 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: positive energy, and so I found it much more enjoyable. 83 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, again, I don't know what my 84 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: father did was it was necessary, but it was very 85 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: much anti establishment. It was often hostile, you know, there 86 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: was there were people laid off as a result of 87 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: these things. Whereas when you're building, you know, you tend 88 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: to be employing more. Um, it's a much more positive 89 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: energy experience. So that's what I've been doing ever since. 90 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: So let's talk about Benson I Care for a moment. 91 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: You were the youngest CEO of a company ever listed 92 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: on the ny SC at the time, and subsequently you 93 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: generated returns for your investors. Tell us a little bit 94 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: about Benson I Care. Sure. Well, I really started with 95 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: very little money, and I had made it made some money, 96 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: you know, when I was working with my father. But 97 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: basically it started with my buying eleven optical shops from 98 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: a from a company called Sterling Optical which was going about, 99 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: which was going bankrupt, and I got an SBA loan. 100 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: I think I put up a hundred thousand dollars and 101 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: bought these stores. I think it was the only SBA 102 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: loan that they that that nat West made that year. 103 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: It was, you know, one of those years that was 104 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: a you know, down economy that hadn't made many loans. Anyway, 105 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: we bought that business and sold it it into a 106 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: shell company called Erlick Bober Financial, which was a then 107 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: defunct former municipal bond broker. Stock was thirty eight centser 108 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: share when we were reversed it in. At the same 109 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: time brought a chain of formerly bankrupt stores in Minnesota 110 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: called Benson Optical hence the named Benson I Care and 111 00:06:55,320 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: they ran dispensaries inside optomologists officers. Anyway, that's how we started. 112 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: We were a bit of spoken mirrors. It gave us 113 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: a business with about fifty million dollars of volume and 114 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: very little in profits, and we were off to the races. 115 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: And long story short, we started buying manufacturers and distributors 116 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: of eyeware. The largest acquisition we made was a company 117 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: called Optical Radiation, which I think we bought in nineteen 118 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: ninety four, which was a home run transaction. We ended 119 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: up owning the largest system of lens processes in the 120 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: United States, you know, optical lab speaking lenses into prescriptions. Anyway, 121 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: we sold the company to Sor, which was the largest 122 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 1: lens baker in the world, and you know, returned to 123 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: investors to stop one from thy eight cents to nine 124 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: dollars and seventy my memory recalls right. And that was 125 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: my capital base, quite frankly, from which everything else I've 126 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: done was built. So so let's talk about the next 127 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: thing that you built. You end up joining Jordan a 128 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: few years later. That wasn't the initial name, was it? 129 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: And that that company I actually didn't join it. I 130 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: forced myself upon it. I would be more. I bought 131 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of a company called Ultrist, which 132 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: was a spinoff from Ball Corporation, and made a takeover 133 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: take private proposal to them, which they rejected. That they 134 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: made another and another, and basically they had made a 135 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: couple of very poor acquisitions and every time their numbers 136 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: came down, I had readjusted my offer, and management continued 137 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 1: to fight me on it, and in the end they 138 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: held an auction that was the only bidder, and finally 139 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: the board decided to invite me to be a director 140 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: in exchange for stand still. So Ian Askins has been 141 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: my partner in right hand for the last thirty one years. 142 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: He and I went on the board. I went to 143 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: my first board meeting. It was an extraordinary event um 144 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: and at the end of that board meeting, they decided 145 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: to fire the CEO and ninety days later made me 146 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: chairman and chairman CEO and ian vice chairman and CFO. 147 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,599 Speaker 1: And I think split adjusted, the stock was about the 148 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: dollar twenty if I remember rightly, about ten dollars pre split, 149 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: and we built the company from there. It was about 150 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty million dollar business with about thirty millions, 151 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: and it was it was one of those stories where 152 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: the board decided to actually invite in a very rare 153 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: story where the board decided to invite in the protagonist 154 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: and actually saw that I had a plan and the 155 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: view and shoreholders were richly rewarded. We we We built 156 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: the company for fifteen years thirty four compound return. Sold 157 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: the company when the stock was about sixty dollars, so 158 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: that's about a five thou percent return. And and just 159 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: to put some flesh on those bones. When you joined, 160 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: it was about three million in revenues. By the time 161 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: newer brand Ends boarded for fifteen billion dollars, you had 162 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: over ten billion dollars in revenue, a hundred and twenty 163 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: global brands, thirty five thousand employees, all of which begs 164 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: the question, how did you manage to scale up from 165 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: what was essentially a faltering company into something so successful 166 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: that rubber Maid How to grab it? It's a great story. 167 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 1: Some of it was luck is that we actually ended 168 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: up with fifty five thousand employees. It was the biggest 169 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 1: given we we um. You know, the beginning was it 170 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: was an incredible series of events. The first was one 171 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: of the bad acquisitions they had made at the very beginning, 172 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: and by the way, the company's loans were in the 173 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: red zone, you know, the warning sort of potential default 174 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: zone that Bank of America. It was like one of 175 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: those sort of loans that they were watching out for. 176 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: So the company was really in porchet. But they had 177 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,359 Speaker 1: bought the last acquisition that they made, that very poor acquisition. 178 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: They paid a hundred and fifty eight million dollars if 179 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,839 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, for a company, but they bought it 180 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: as an asset purchase. So when we sold the business 181 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: for twenty four million, the business that they had bought, 182 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: it created a large n o l and we filed 183 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: an accelerated return with the government and got back twenty 184 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: five million dollars of previously paid taxes. And then we 185 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: got a little bit lucky. The Bush had done the 186 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: stimulus Bill and allowed companies to go back a further 187 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,599 Speaker 1: three years to recaptch a previously paid taxes for the 188 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: n OL and got another twenty five million dollars, and 189 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: they gave us enough liquidity to really solve the balance 190 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: sheet issues. Our residual businesses were very profitable, and they 191 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: said about thirty million of the BIDA. And then we 192 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: bought a company called Tillier, which picks the food Saver product, 193 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: and we paid only four times the vi DA for it. 194 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: Everybody thought there was a one trick pony and its 195 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: profits weren't going to be sustainable, and its profits went 196 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: from twenty five million to forty million, so we we 197 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: we had started with an extraordinary base. He was the 198 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 1: only deal I've ever done that literally doubled earnings to 199 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 1: share on the day we did it. Obviously, the stock 200 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: performed very well from it, and and that gave us 201 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: the building block on which to build. And I think 202 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: the rest of the story is not so much what 203 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: we did right. But the things we didn't do wrong, 204 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't have any real failures. We bought 205 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: good businesses and made them better under the umbrella. We 206 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: never borrowed too much, We used equity, were appropriate and 207 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: sort of navigated that route for fifteen years, stuck to 208 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: our knitting. Quite fascinating. Let's talk a little bit about 209 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: the state of business today and what's driving things. We 210 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: were talking earlier about Jordan being purchased by Newell Brands 211 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: in what was that experience? Like you, You've been through 212 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: a lot of purchases and sales of assets, but this 213 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: was a pretty decent sized transaction. It was about a 214 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: twenty billion dollar growth transaction, fifteen billion on the equity. 215 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: You know. My view, I looked at the sort of 216 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: behaviors of my children and felt that a lot of 217 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: the company, the businesses inside the portfolio, we were becoming 218 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: less relevant to the next generation of behaviors. So I 219 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: felt it was the appropriate time for, you know, as 220 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: to consolidate portfolio with somebody who had a similar portfolio. 221 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: Was giving the businesses combined, you know, greater leverage and 222 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: strength within their sectors. But also the decision was a 223 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: personal one. I felt that we had taken the business 224 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: a very long way, We've generated superb returns and this 225 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: was the right time to move on. I was also 226 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: in the process of building a family office. I had 227 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: a son and they had more children, you know, sort 228 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: of ahead of the oldest son to come and sort 229 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: of join a family office in Alament. And so, you know, 230 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: the coincidence of timing felt that it was the right time. 231 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: I think, with hindsight, you know, probably the right move. Obviously, uh, 232 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: I didn't see COVID nineteen coming or anything like that, 233 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: but definitely, um, you know, was was the right move behindsight. 234 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: So since you mentioned COVID nineteen, you were until recently 235 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: a director of restaurant Brands International. They have such brands 236 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: as Burger King, Popeye's, Chicken Tim Horton's. How has the 237 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: pandemic affected those sort of businesses and what was it 238 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: like during the depth in March and April of the 239 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: lockdown across the US. You know, I think that there 240 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: are retailers, quick service retailers, food companies that have been 241 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: hit differently than others. The retailers like McDonald's and Burger 242 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: King and Popeyes have significant drive through services, have been 243 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: far less damaged than you know, casual dining concepts, where 244 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: you know you're sitting inside a restaurant and delivery or 245 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: drive through is a fastballer proportion of the business. So 246 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: I would tell you that they've managed through this admirably, 247 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: obviously at lower levels of volume in some areas than 248 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: than others. But you know, in terms of being able 249 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: to keep them as as strong, maintain their dividends, hold 250 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: on to the employees, they've been spared. As I say, 251 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: the more casual dining concepts have been decimated. If you 252 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: don't have a capital base of which to operate, and 253 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: you you know you live, you operate months to month 254 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: without this sort of government support, you're out of business 255 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: until consumer behavior completely changes again. So let's do a 256 00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: little comparison with the industrial conglomerates today. How how do 257 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: they look compared to the conglomerates of of the seventies 258 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: and nineteen sixties that your father was spending a lot 259 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: of time taking apart. Well, I would say, first of all, 260 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: there are far fewer of them today. The conglomerates of 261 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: yesterday were fueled by continual, continuous deal making. You know, 262 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: they were taking advantage of accounting anomalies about you know, 263 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: on treatment of goodwill and things like that that aren't 264 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: the case today. They were also far fatter. They generally 265 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: dealt with very large headquarters, and we were fiefdoms in 266 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: their own And I say today they're much more targeted, 267 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: more disciplined, rarer as I said, and get probably getting 268 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: less of a discount as a result of being a 269 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: little more focused than than the conglomerates of the sixties 270 00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: and seventies. What about a giant conglomerates sitting with a 271 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: lot of cash, like Berkshire Hathaway. What what happens to 272 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: that entity in the post Buffet Monger era? You know, 273 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: I'll give you an analogy. I would think of it 274 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: in the same way as one would think of Lows 275 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: Corporation after the passing of the you know, Larry and 276 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: prespentitious standards. Though the you know, they're great assets, great companies, 277 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: but the if you like, the investment dynamism that existed 278 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: with the founding entrepreneurs, you know, at least for now, 279 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: is not the same. That's not a knock on them, 280 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: it's just a different generation. And that would be a 281 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 1: normal course of events. I think that Berkshire Hathaway will 282 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: probably be the same story. I think they'll you know, 283 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: it doesn't change the quality of the assets when they're 284 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: not there. But I think that the sort of innate 285 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: instinct of when to when to make a big bet 286 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: and what big bet to make is something that you 287 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: don't get to pass on. You either habits or you don't. 288 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: So um, you know. I think whoever Warren Buffett and 289 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: Charlie Manger put in as caretakers, you know, of the 290 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: of Berkshire for the future, they will probably be very 291 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: admirable caretakers. But they won't be Warren Bufett and Charlie 292 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:23,360 Speaker 1: Maner because you can't be with doesn't know how life works, right, 293 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: There is no replacing those two guys, that's correct. So, 294 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: so you were founder and chairman of Element Solutions, a 295 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: chemical technology company. Seems very different from some of the 296 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: previous companies you worked on. How did you find your 297 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 1: way to that and was it really all that different 298 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: from some of the other companies you helped to build. No. 299 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm currently involved in you know, five quite 300 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: significant size businesses, and Element, you know, is one of them. 301 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: Element has the set says the same characteristics as all 302 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: the other ones, which is there the businesses inside Elements 303 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: are the market leaders in their respective niche. It's a 304 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: very high priest cash flow business. It's got good management, 305 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: it's got some really defensible moats around it. Those are 306 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: really core characteristics that you'd find in our Frondsen food businesses. 307 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: To know, more foods, which is you know, same thing 308 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: for a p I, a L safety business, and Royal Oaks, 309 00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: you know my charcoal business. That they all are leaders 310 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: in their respective niche markets elements not really as it's 311 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: especially chemical company, but it really is a services company, 312 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: you know when you really get into what it does. 313 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: What it does is it helps manufacturers in their manufacturing process. 314 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: And it's really the technicians as much as the chemicals. 315 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: Could we sell them. That are what our customers pay 316 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: for when they're when they're dealing with various business units. 317 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: M quite quite interesting. So let's talk a little bit 318 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: about what's going on in the world of public markets 319 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: and private equity. You've worked with firms in the past 320 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: like black Stone and Pinnacle. How is it what that 321 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: what you do is different from private equity. I'd say 322 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: most distinctly, it's the difference between owners and renters private equity. 323 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: Even the best of them are renters of businesses because 324 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: they own them with a specific mandate to sell them 325 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: at some point in the future. So in some cases 326 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: that you could be six months, could be five years, 327 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: could be ten years, that they always end up selling 328 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: them because that's the structure of how they have their capital. 329 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: I'm in the permanent capital business, so you know the 330 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: way I invest in the public market. Um, the only 331 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: way that you know I'm a seller is if the 332 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: company itself is sold because somebody comes along and makes 333 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: an offer for all the shares. We don't tend to 334 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: look at it that way. We've put up as us 335 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: is from a very very long investment standpoint. We talked 336 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: earlier about Books a half Away. Probably the same philosophical 337 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 1: approach in terms of investing that once we own something, 338 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: we intend to build it for the long term, so 339 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: that affects decision making capital investments. Long term approach to ownership. 340 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: Incentives for employees and how we treat employees I think 341 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: are very different in what I do to private equity. 342 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: The analogy I use is if you had an apartment 343 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: and you were a renter, and you you had a 344 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 1: hole in your wall, you might put a poster up 345 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 1: to cover the whole, whereas if you're the owner, you're 346 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: going to fix the wall. That, unfortunately or fortunately is 347 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: the difference sometimes in approach. What what's the old joke, 348 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 1: nobody washes a rented car exactly exactly? How do you 349 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: make sure that your investors are patient capital? There's been 350 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: so much discussion about shareholder value and focusing on the 351 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: next quarter as opposed to the next decade. How how 352 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: do you ensure you're attracting the right investors to be 353 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: owners with you of of the companies you're running. You know, 354 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 1: that's a that's that's a very good question. I mean, 355 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: the truth is, you don't. What we tend to do reputationally, 356 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: people know by you know, our long history, that we 357 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: are patient capital, and that tends to attract a certain 358 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: kind of institutional shareholder. We are also our own activists. 359 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's something that is an important 360 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: point to make if you have shorter term type oriented investors. 361 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: I think when you communicate with them and they understand 362 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: that you're balancing the short term and the long term 363 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: to drive value, that gives investors some comfort for investors 364 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: who really don't care about the business long term prospects 365 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: and just one short term returns. You know, the something 366 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: we can do about that. But they tend to be 367 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: in the minority. But because we've been able to drive 368 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: good value over the long term overall, you know, we 369 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: tend to we tend to attract the right kind of investors. 370 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: You know, I've always believed that you sell equity to 371 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: investors the same way you sell products. You know, there 372 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: are for investors, there are five thousand different public companies 373 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: to choose from. Why invest in yours? You've got to 374 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: give them a reason to be interested in your equity. 375 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: And you know, for people who sit back and think 376 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: it's all going to come their way, those are the 377 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: ones that tend to get you know, undervalued or you know, 378 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: have the wrong kinds of shareholders. We actually make a 379 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: real effort to find the right shareholders that the right 380 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: profile to our sectors, explain to them why our business 381 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: you know, is Merits investments. M quite quite interesting. I'm 382 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: curious about what you described as being an activist and 383 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: esther in your own businesses. What does that look like. Well, 384 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, capital allocation is where you really make a 385 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: difference in terms of return. You know, if you look 386 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: at Jardon's history, we weren't just good owners and operators 387 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: of our businesses when you went to add equity to 388 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: our business, so you went to buy equity back. We 389 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: did some significant buy backs during the course of Jordan's 390 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: evolution at times when we felt that the market is 391 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: significantly undervalued our company, and with hindsight, those decisions were 392 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: very good decisions. So I think, as I say, being 393 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: your own activists and being proactive with capital allocation, whether 394 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: it be for acquisitions or buy backs or you know, 395 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: other forms of financing, you need to be a debt 396 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: at both. It's not just selling your product that that 397 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: can create value for shareholders. So we're always very cognizance 398 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: of that. Let's talk a little bit about these blank 399 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: check investment vehicles. How did you first get involved in them? 400 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: I kind of remember in the ninety nineties they were 401 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: thought of as a little bit sketchy. But they've since mature, it, 402 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: haven't they They have? Indeed, I mean I think I 403 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: was probably the catalyst for them getting their respectability. With hindsight, 404 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: I think I've done eight and a half billion dollars 405 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: worth of equity investing with SPACs. The first one I 406 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 1: did was the largest of its kind ever done, and 407 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: I think one of the first done by one of 408 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: the larger Bold bracket investment banks. It was called Freedom Acquisition, 409 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: and Freedom was five million dollars. I believe at the 410 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: time no one had done one. I think the largest 411 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: before that was maybe three or four hundred million, and 412 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: yes it was. It was a very successful one. We 413 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: used to buy the largest hedge fund in Europe at 414 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: the time, called g LG, founded by Non Godessman and 415 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: his partners. Then we had two more after that were 416 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: each called Liberty, Liberty and Liberty International. And then we 417 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: had Justice, So we did Freedom to Liberty in a Justice. 418 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: Probably the next one should have been called for All, 419 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: but we didn't. We had we changed the names after that. 420 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: But we created some great companies. Obviously one of them 421 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: Justice was Bergy King which now has restaurant brands, which 422 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: is a what twenty billion class market kept company, say 423 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: five billion dollar market kept company something like that. One 424 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: of them was Liberty was used to create a company 425 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: called Phoenix Group Holdings, which is now a foot company. 426 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: No Matt Foods. More recent one that I've done is 427 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: now the largest frozen food company in Europe. We've done 428 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: a number of these. These vehicles have really created companies 429 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: that are very notable. So so you mentioned Justice Holdings. 430 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: One of the partners and investors in that was William 431 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: Ackman of Pershing Square. How did that partnership come about? 432 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: To build A friend of mine I've known for many years, 433 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: Nicholas brun and I had partners into the first three 434 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: or four vehicles that we had created, and really actually 435 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: was it was it was a funny story. We were 436 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: we were at the end of our fundraising process and 437 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: we've raised you enough money to be have a fully 438 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,239 Speaker 1: funded deal. And we met Bill and he said, look, 439 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: I really want to join you in this because I 440 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: want to learn how these vehicles work, and I'd love 441 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: to be your partner. And we were like, well, when 442 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: you know when sort of it's a bit late to 443 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: really think about having another party. So I'll tell you what. 444 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: I'll give you enough money just tacking it on, but 445 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: it's neutral to you economically if I joined you as 446 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: a partner. So he invested. I actually can't remember the 447 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: amount of money we're talking about. It was maybe it 448 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: must have been over two hundred and fifty million dollars. 449 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: It could have been more. It could have been five minutes. 450 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: I just don't remember. Anyway, it was a significant investment, 451 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: and it was it was economically neutral to us, and 452 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: we'd sort of be fun to do a deal with Bill, 453 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,719 Speaker 1: which is what we did. So he's a pretty avid 454 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: tennis player, and he later made the observation you can 455 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: learn a lot about someone based on how aggressive they 456 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: are with their serve. I know you're an athlete. Have 457 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: have you guys played much tennis together? And how aggressive 458 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 1: are you with your first serve? Well, I continue that 459 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: the last time I played tennis would Go, which was 460 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: a few years ago, I beat him the first set, 461 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: and that was not a good outcome from my perspective, 462 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: because he wouldn't leave me alone until we played again. 463 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: And then we paid another beat me in that one 464 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: and we I don't think we've played tennis since. So 465 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: and I don't consider myself and uh, you know, I 466 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: played squash for pen for period and I'm not a 467 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: bad tennis player, but I don't play all the time. 468 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: I actually probably played two or few times a year. 469 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: But I'm an I'm an athlete. By background, and so 470 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: I can get lucky on on on a set every 471 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: once in a while. Yeah, you've done some triathlons and 472 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: some ultramarathons and iron Man championships. How how did you 473 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: get interested in in that sort of personal abuse? The 474 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: good description. I was a soccer player. I played in college, 475 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: and then I played in the Cosmopolitan League in the 476 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: New York state area until I was about thirty two, 477 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: and every weekend, you know, injuries would get make it 478 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: less and less fun. And then my brother actually suggested 479 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: that I try a triathlon. I did my first one 480 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 1: and I really enjoyed it, and then they did another 481 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: and another. Then somebody said, you know, you should try 482 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: half iron Man, so I tried that, and then somebody said, well, 483 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: you couldn't do an iron Man, So I went and 484 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: did one of those, and then I started doing a 485 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: bunch of iron Man to found that I enjoyed the distance. 486 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: And then I met a guy called Vito Billa who said, 487 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to take you to a place where very 488 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: few people have been. And they said what does that mean? 489 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: He said, well, have you ever thought of running in 490 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: the desert? Dred and thirty five miles non stop in 491 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: the middle of July. I said, no, nobody does that. 492 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: He said, you said, yeah, we could do that, So 493 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: that I'm in. And so one of my first ultras 494 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: was doing this race called bad Water, which is this 495 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: ultramarathon and the hunted any degree in the shade heat 496 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: in Death Valley in July. And it's it's hard to explain, 497 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: but it's kind of addicting. And but I did that race. 498 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: I ran. I think in that race, I ran for 499 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: forty one hours and then um did a bunch of 500 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: other ultras around it. But um, but I don't do 501 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: those anymore and too old. Yeah, you lost me a 502 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: Death Valley. Anytime they name a place like that, it's 503 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: probably no where anyone should really be running. So let's 504 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: get back to some of the SPACs you mentioned. Burger King. 505 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: Eventually Justice Holdings merge with Burger King. That worked out 506 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: pretty well. How did that deal time about? So you know, 507 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: we've looked at the number of these different opportunities. Bill 508 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: had had an existing relationship with three G. We've actually 509 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: gone very close to doing another different deal with black Stone. 510 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: And my role really was to do the diligence because 511 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,239 Speaker 1: Bill was conflicted since he was already an inner esther 512 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 1: in the three G fund that had invested in burger Kine. 513 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: You know what I saw, I liked and we ended 514 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: up agreeing a transaction. But with hindsight, has been very successful. 515 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: I mean we really brought burge Kine before it was 516 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: ready to do an I p O. But we gave 517 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: them we had a billion and a half dollars or 518 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: so in the vehicle, and that gave them the opportunity 519 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: to deploy that capital into other projects that they were 520 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: working on at there at three G and really recycled 521 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: the capital that invested in the burger Kine buyout was 522 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: a very successful deal, but became way more successful after 523 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: had gone public. I mean, stock went from fifteen where 524 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: we created the vehicle really too, I think at the 525 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: height about seventy five seventy seven or set the stock was, 526 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: and since COVID it's still held in there pretty well, 527 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: it's over fifty five dollars today. That's uh, pretty respectable. 528 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: The other spect that I wanted to ask about was 529 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: freedom that you alterly used to help GLG go public. 530 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 1: What was that experience like back in was that O seven? Yes, 531 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: that was probably one of the easiest deals I've ever done, 532 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: because no goddessman who's a good friend of mine and 533 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: Nicholas's Nicolas Boins and my partner at the time, you know, 534 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: he understood how SPACs worked. I remember the meeting. We 535 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: said enough in his office that geog and said, look, 536 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: we both know how these things work and how they 537 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: should look. This has drawn us out in the back 538 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: of a napkin, and if we can agree on the terms, 539 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: let's just give it to the lawyers and be done. 540 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what we did. I think the whole 541 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: the whole negotiation took about forty five minutes. The rest 542 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: was done by the lawyers. And at the time, you know, 543 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: a lot of these other hedge funds were looking, or 544 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,719 Speaker 1: these alternative managers that we call them. We're looking at 545 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: different avenues of how to go public. Some were going 546 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: through a vehicle that Goldman Sacks were created to try 547 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: and create a listing. Some had looked at the traditional 548 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: I P O route, had done, you know, look to 549 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: reverse acquisitions. Very different approaches. This one was by far 550 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: and away the most successful and traded the best of 551 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: all of them. So it was it was with hindsight 552 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: you know the right thing to do, and I think 553 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: that gave us the sort of credibility to move on 554 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: to the next vehicles that we created. So you're still 555 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: pretty active with SPATS today, given the COVID nineteen pandemic 556 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: and the lockdown. What areas are you seeing where opportunities 557 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: exist and are there any areas of the economy that 558 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: you see as permanently impaired that aren't particularly attractive to you. Well, 559 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: I would say two things. First of all, I am 560 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: still active, and we just bought a company at the 561 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: end of last year called a PI Group. Great company. 562 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: It's the largest installer of life safety systems first depression 563 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: and the like in buildings and in the United States. 564 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: Does a lot of service and inspection work that's regulated work. 565 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: You know, love. So we you know, loved the last 566 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: vehicle that we're created. We're going to create another one, 567 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure in the coming months. You know. Look, I 568 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: think that there are sectors that are permanently impaired, and 569 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: I think the markets, as all markets are, sometimes get 570 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: a little upside down. You've got a lot of companies 571 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: today that have very few, very little in the ware 572 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: of revenues and very little aware of profits trading at 573 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: ridiculous valuations, and then you've got some really solid companies 574 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: that the market doesn't seem to care about, and you know, 575 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: those things correct themselves over time. They always do. I'm 576 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 1: not sure that I would say that there are sectors 577 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: that are permanently impaired, because permanently as a very big word. 578 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 1: But I would there are sectors I wouldn't touch today. 579 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: No one really knows whether there will be a good 580 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: vaccine that will come out for the coronavirus, but we 581 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: have out there today. But if there is, you know, 582 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: some industries that are that could be permanently impaired will recover. 583 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: But I wouldn't want to be in in travel today. 584 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: It's just not a sector that I think is going 585 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 1: to fair well in this environment. I'd want to be 586 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 1: in businesses where people are doing more things at home, 587 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: just sort of a general theme. So, you know, I 588 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: think that whether it be the casual dining concepts we 589 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: talked about earlier, or you know, vacation package companies, convention companies, 590 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: you know, things, whether where human beings are gathering in 591 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: large numbers, I'm not sure those affectives i'd want to 592 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,959 Speaker 1: be in today. Makes a lot of sense. So we've 593 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: talked about string after string of successful investments and winds. 594 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 1: Were there any misfires or failures along the way. You 595 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: You've really put together quite a streak. I you know, 596 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: it's been very fortunate. I think that my father always 597 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: used to say, you make more money on the deals 598 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: you don't do than the deals you do. And I 599 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: think where I've been most fortunate is not making some 600 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: very large hours. The only two times that I've got 601 00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,720 Speaker 1: out of my lane and did sort of venture capitally, 602 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: things like I lost all my money, but it wasn't 603 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: what the amount of money we're talking about wasn't that 604 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,440 Speaker 1: much relatively speaking, So they were cheap lessons, but there 605 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: were lessons I didn't soon forget. And so I've tended 606 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: to stick to my lane. And you know, I've never 607 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: gotten complacent, and voy stayed fairly humble about these things, 608 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: and kept my investment discipline, you know, did my own 609 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: due diligence, never sort of delegated it to consultants. The 610 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: team around the has been with me for my career, 611 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: as I told you earlier in Ashkin Has it will 612 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: be for thirty one years. Genially, my partner on the 613 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: operations side, and would be for seventeen years. Head of 614 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 1: my family office has been with me for thirty years. 615 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: You know, we when we find the right people, keep 616 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 1: them around. June, you tend to navigate to the right place. 617 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: Let me ask you about two kind of interesting things 618 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: you're involved with of a little more personal nature. Tell 619 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: us about your work with the Wounded Warrior Project. I 620 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: actually haven't been involved with Wounded Warriors for a while, 621 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: but I when I raced bad Water, actually raced the 622 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: wounded warriors I had. I had a soldier, her name 623 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: Steve Robeson, still a good friend of mine who lost 624 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: his leg in Mozole. And I actually hosted every year 625 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 1: still now for holiday stays at my home in Antigua. 626 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,760 Speaker 1: And you know, just American hero and I was quite 627 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 1: involved in their early years in in Winded Warriors, but 628 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: really a the fundraiser as a post to anything else. Obviously, 629 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: the unsung heroes in our in our country are the 630 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: masses of wounded veterans that have come home and need 631 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: support and work and everything else. You know. One of 632 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: the things I love about a PI, the company that 633 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: we invest in today is a lot of military vets 634 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: in the business, which proves not only a great culture, 635 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,879 Speaker 1: but a great work ethic as well. So let's talk 636 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: about antigue was since she mentioned it, What does a 637 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: special economics envoy actually do? And e as a small place. 638 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: My family have been there for over thirty years. My 639 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,840 Speaker 1: parents lived there, they've been citizens there for many many years. 640 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,359 Speaker 1: So you know, my my love of the island. It's 641 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: a small island, only a population where we about a 642 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 1: hundred thousand people. Getting connected to the right people outside 643 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: the governments of small countries is sometimes not easy. So 644 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: what I do, it's not a job, it's an honor 645 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: and to do it for them. But I tried to 646 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: connect them wherever I can, to the right people who 647 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 1: would take an interest in investing in Antigua or helping 648 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: Antigua in any particular way, particularly when we have crisis. 649 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 1: You know, we had a hurricane that basically wipe out Barbuda, 650 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: so I was quite involved with helping them with relief efforts. 651 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: And really the same thing with COVID nineteen. We're doing 652 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: a lot of things in the ways of food programs 653 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: and sourcing medical supplies, flying medical supplies down to the country. 654 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: You know, little things that to a population that's relatively 655 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,439 Speaker 1: small a big difference. So, um, you know, that's really 656 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: the role I've played. It's not a formal role. It's 657 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's a role I played because of my 658 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: connections to the island and the knighthood is does that 659 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: have anything to do with this being a former British 660 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,399 Speaker 1: colony or is that specific to much? Very much. It's 661 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: something that's on the Queen's List, but it's something that 662 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,760 Speaker 1: the recommendations come from the colony, so it's an honor. 663 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 1: I don't take it too seriously. It helps every once 664 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: in a while getting a good reservation at a restaurant, right, 665 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: That's that's what doctors used to do in the United 666 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: States in the nineteen sixties. Medical school was worth the 667 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: worth of that. But you did you get to meet 668 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 1: the queen? Was she the one who actually night did you? 669 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,480 Speaker 1: Or was it a little less formal of a ceremony? 670 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: It was a little It was equally formal, but it 671 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: was done by an envoy. It was done in Antigua, 672 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: so they send an envoy over from the UK to 673 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: oversee it, and it's no Queen's list. I actually have 674 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: been to Bucking let's all that. But that was the 675 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: more charitable things in the UK quite interesting. So I 676 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: know we only have you for a finite amount of time. 677 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: Let's get to our favorite questions and and see what 678 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: we can learn learn about Sir Martin the person as 679 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 1: opposed to the Night of the Grand Cross. Let's talk 680 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: about we've been talking about Lockdown and pandemics. What are 681 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,719 Speaker 1: you watching under lockdown these days? Tell us your favorite 682 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: Netflix or Amazon shows, or or what podcast you're listening to. 683 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: I watched the other day, I watch Eurovision, which is 684 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: Will farrell latest movie that got launched on I think 685 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 1: it's a Netflix, which you know, because I grew up 686 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: with the Eurovision song contest. I thought was extremely funny. 687 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: So that's that's my latest favorite. I've been watching all 688 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: the episodes of Powder. I don't know if you know 689 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: that series, but oh sure, it's it's nail biding, Its 690 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,800 Speaker 1: nail biding, and it's frighteningly accurate. I watched an interesting 691 00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: movie movie on fun Guy, which I find fascinating. So yeah, 692 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: those are sort of my favorite so far. Yeah. I've 693 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: learned not to watch Fowder right before I go to bed, 694 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 1: otherwise I'm I'm up for hours. It's uh, it's so exciting, 695 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: and I was shocked to learn it's actually very popular 696 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: throughout the Middle East, not just in Israel's kind of 697 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: interesting how widely that that has been viewed throughout you know, 698 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: the West Bank and everywhere else. It's true, and it's uh, 699 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: you know, the real I've go out Bare quite a 700 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: bit as a place in Tel Aviv, and there's a 701 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,520 Speaker 1: lot of accuracy to all of that. Quite interesting. So 702 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,400 Speaker 1: tell us about some of your early mentors. I have 703 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: to assume your father is somewhere on that list. You know, 704 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: he certainly was in all my formative years, my priorities 705 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: in life. But I worked for Wilbur Ross. Was my 706 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: first real job really the time, and Wilbur was a 707 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:54,600 Speaker 1: great mentor for me. He was, you know, he was 708 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: very kind teaching me things in the early days when 709 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: I really knew nothing about business. You know, I was 710 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,000 Speaker 1: a political science major. I've never taken a business course 711 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: or anything like that. So he was really someone who 712 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 1: was a big factor. And then my father's partner, Jimmy Goldsmith, 713 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: you know, watching him and my father at work and 714 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: doing what they do. Okay, I guess those were my 715 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: my three biggest mentors, my father, Wilbury and Jimmy. What 716 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: are you reading these days? Tell us what's keeping your 717 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,479 Speaker 1: mind busy and and what are some of your all 718 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,800 Speaker 1: time favorite books? So my favorite book I've just finished 719 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: actually is have you read American Kingpin. It's all about 720 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: the fellow who built the Silk Road, which was this 721 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: place where you can buy and sell pretty much anything 722 00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: on the dark web. Someone who's not really a technology person. 723 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: I thought it was fascinating. It's also of a quick, 724 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 1: easy read. I really enjoyed that. You know, I tend 725 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: to read books sort of more historical context. One of 726 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: my favorite books of all times is called The Third Chimpanzee, 727 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: which is an early book by Jared Diamond. You know. 728 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,359 Speaker 1: I Paul Johnson's Modern Times another favorite book of mine. 729 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:10,279 Speaker 1: All the evolvary books. I rather like Sapiens, Comma Death, 730 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,600 Speaker 1: little great books. That's my kind of my kind of reading. 731 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:15,879 Speaker 1: I don't figured about what I'm going to read next. 732 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 1: They just literally just finished American Kington. I'll put those 733 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: on my list. What sort of advice would you give 734 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,560 Speaker 1: to a recent college grad who was interested in a 735 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: career in either finance, investing, um M and A. For me, 736 00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 1: I think, by far and away, the most important thing 737 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,240 Speaker 1: to learn is how to communicate. I think so many 738 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:43,399 Speaker 1: kids today, you know, they're very smart technically, but they're 739 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: i Q is a lot better than their EQ, and 740 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: so I would say, really learn how to write, be 741 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,759 Speaker 1: able to communicate in writing. It's not just about a 742 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: short email. Also, you know the personal touch to it. 743 00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 1: How to write a letter, you know, I think, learn 744 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:03,200 Speaker 1: how to treat others as you would expect to be treated. 745 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: You know, the right way to present yourself is those 746 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,880 Speaker 1: are to me. I know this sounds very basic, but 747 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: those bill sets that have often been lost in our youth. 748 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: I think in our final question, what do you know 749 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: about the world of investing today that you wish you 750 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: knew when you were getting started out twenty five or 751 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,359 Speaker 1: so years ago, Well, I wish I knew that there 752 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: was going to be the greatest long long term growth 753 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: inexerties in history, because you could probably use a pen 754 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 1: and been pin rather and been successful in investing just 755 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,359 Speaker 1: by buying something twenty five years ago and keeping it. 756 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 1: But I guess outside of that, I think, you know, 757 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: sticking to one's lane is what I've learned over the 758 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: years is if you really know something in depth, stick 759 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,839 Speaker 1: to it for the long term, and I think that 760 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 1: you can make superior returns doing that instead of being 761 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: if you like two wide in your approach. I think 762 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,319 Speaker 1: that's something that over the years I've learned, you know, 763 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,319 Speaker 1: paid better. If you really know space and focus on it, 764 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: or have a philosophy about the kind of business you 765 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,319 Speaker 1: like and stick for that, you're going to make better returns. 766 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: Thank you, sir Martin Franklin for being so generous with 767 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: your time. If you enjoy this conversation, well check out 768 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: any of the other previous three hundred such discussions we've 769 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 1: had over the past six years. You can find that 770 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:38,720 Speaker 1: at iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcast, Overcast, Stitcher, wherever your final 771 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: podcasts are sold. We love your comments, feedback and suggestions 772 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,959 Speaker 1: right to us at m IB podcast at Bloomberg dot net. 773 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: You can check out my weekly column on Bloomberg dot 774 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: com slash Opinion. Sign up for our daily reads at 775 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,320 Speaker 1: Ridoltz dot com. Give us a review at Apple iTunes, 776 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at Riholtz. I would be remiss 777 00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 1: if I did not thank the Cracks staff who helps 778 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:09,359 Speaker 1: put these conversations together each week. Maroufal is my audio engineer, 779 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,319 Speaker 1: Michael Boyle is my producer. A Tikaval Bron is our 780 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: project manager. Michael Batnick is our head of research. I'm 781 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,319 Speaker 1: Barry Riholts. You've been listening to Masters in Business on 782 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio.