WEBVTT - ‘Family by definition is complicated,’ with special guest host Alison Roman! 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:07.480 Hello, everyone, welcome to next Question with Katie Kirk. I, 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:10.680 as I'm sure you've gathered, I'm not Katie Kirk. I'm 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:14.760 Alison Roman. I'm a New York based cook writer. Maybe 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:16.960 you're familiar with some of my cookbooks. One of them 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.760 is called Dining In, one of them is called Nothing Fancy. 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.080 I've got a newsletter, not so cleverly called a newsletter. 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:35.159 Or maybe you've seen my home movies on YouTube. Hello, Hello, Hello, 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:38.320 good morning, Welcome to her movies. I'm Allison Roman. And 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.320 today I am making Today, I am making Today, I'm 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:45.360 making pasta, salad, cinnamon rolls, lots of brye potato, leak suit, 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.920 a sticky apple cake, shrim scampy shallop pasta. But today 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:51.800 I'm stepping in for Katie while she takes a quick 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:54.800 break for her book tour. And today we'll be making 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:59.880 no just kidding, Today we will be doing something totally different. Wait, Alice, 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.600 and how tell me? How long are you doing this? 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:04.160 This is so great? This is it? This is the 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:08.120 only one. You're my You're my one guest. Yeah really 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.920 and really yeah yeah, I'm only I'm only doing the 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:16.080 one and this is so honored. Today I'm talking to 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.759 Jillian Love. Jillian is a photographer and a filmmaker, and 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.560 I've been following her work for a while now. She's 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:26.240 mostly known for making extremely gorgeous portraits of very famous 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:30.560 people musicians, politicians, actors, but she's also a really thoughtful 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:36.520 photojournalistic essay maker. She does political conflict, racial tensions, marginalized communities. 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.520 She really dives deep into these lesser talked about, lesser 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:44.720 seeen communities and people. I first came across Jillian and 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:48.120 her work around I think it was it was a 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:50.520 live event where she was showing some of her newer 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.920 photographs and explaining them in front of a live audience, 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:56.120 how they made her feel, why they were important to her, 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.160 you know, on stage, in front of a ton of people. 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.520 And I was very moved by her performance. This was 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.040 part of a larger show called pop Up Magazine, which, 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:09.240 as indicates, is a live magazine created just for the stage. 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:14.040 So I love that that was your first um time 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:17.600 you Yeah, I love that because that was such an 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:21.400 important moment for me and such a turning point. The 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.240 photographs she was showing then were of her super close 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:29.519 family who were recently let's say Divided by politics. Four 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:33.160 years later, that project is now a gorgeous book and 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.560 collection and exhibit at the i c P in New 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:39.200 York called Family Matters. I chatted with Jillian of Razoom 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:45.360 just before the Thanksgiving break, and here's our conversation. Before 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.080 we get started, I want to hear a little bit 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.239 more about your background, where you come from, how this 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.120 came to be, because I feel like the journey you 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.600 started on you weren't like I'm going to be it. 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.440 I'm going to photograph of my family as this long 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.760 term checked. It was sort of like woven into what 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:07.520 you had already been doing. Yeah, so it has been 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.480 over twenty years. This the book is over twenty years 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:16.160 of work. So it didn't start out as the intention 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:18.919 was never like this is going to be a project. 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.880 It was I just started photographing my family, and I 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:24.919 think I described it in the book in the beginning. 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.280 You know, it began really I was an art student 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:30.760 in New York UM and I was one of the 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.560 only American Americans in my program. Oddly it was at 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:39.040 the International Center of Photography and UM there was this moment, 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:43.520 you know, I'd always been interested in photographing, UM other people. 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.280 I'm such a curious person, so my work was really 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.880 centered around, um, you know, learning about other people, telling 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:55.080 other stories. I never thought of myself or my family 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.280 as a subject um. But then something happened. UM when 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.200 I was a student and where I was outside taking 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:06.160 a cigarette break with a bunch of my classmates and 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.680 a classmate of mine, um from Scandinavia, was doing a 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:13.920 project on capitalism, and he he pointed to these women 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.800 across the street and he said, look at those women 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:22.360 in their vulgar fancy for coats. And I was like, oh, yeah, goodness, 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:25.839 And he was like, I don't understand these fur coats 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.080 because at the at the time the schools on the 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.599 Upper East Side, And as they came closer, my heart 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.800 started racing because the realization struck that it was my mom, 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:39.039 my aunt and my grandma. Like yeah, not only do 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:43.200 I know them, but I come from there exactly. So 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.359 it was just that that moment where kind of my 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.680 world's collided and I and so that's really kind of 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.360 where it started. And that's when I just started photographing 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.320 my family for myself, and and then it just kept 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.520 growing and it was just something I did. Um, but 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.080 It's not anything that I had intended to be a 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:06.240 project until um, the past four years, it became very 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.800 apparent that actually, this the narrative is enfolding to me. 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.240 What were you doing in the interim? So you had 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.840 been documenting your family, you know, since then as an 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:18.960 ongoing project, but what was sort of the thing that 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.159 you focused on. So basically, you know, when I came 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:26.479 out of school, I started, UM, I just did drop 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:29.520 off portfolio drop offs and the best photography and magazines 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:33.440 was at the New York Times magazine, and I dropped 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:37.160 my portfolio off there and I got a cover story 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:39.919 right away, and I started having work in shows. But 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.960 I really after September eleven. UM. I was put on 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:48.159 assignment during September eleven to photograph people who had lost 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:52.880 people in the towers, and I realized the power of 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:56.960 the exchange of photographer and subject and how it's a 0:05:57.000 --> 0:06:00.920 real it's something is happening when you're making a portrait 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:03.679 of another person. And it was that moment where people 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.040 were in mourning and we didn't know each other, and 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.760 it was this really powerful exchange that happened, and it 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.800 was like the photograph was their moment to say like, 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.200 we're not just a number, like look at us, look 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.559 at our loved one, look at who we lost. And 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.920 it was about three to four weeks of photographing a 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.479 lot of families and something happened where I just said, 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.920 I need to work on a project that because it 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.080 was two years of just assignment, assignment, assignment that I 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:37.840 really wanted to make for myself that I was interested in. 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.839 So I went too. I started working in the Middle East, 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:45.599 and for the next five years, I was really working 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:50.080 on this project called Testimony with Israeli Jews, is really 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:54.040 Arabs and Palestinians um kind of how they were affected 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.880 by the Second Anti Fata, And then I was um. 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.080 I learned about this own in Georgia where they were 0:07:02.080 --> 0:07:07.080 having segregated proms. So it started out as assignment and 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:11.400 then continued for the next ten to twelve years as 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.640 I've tried to understand the roots of how this town 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:19.320 had segregated problems up until two thousand and ten, and 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.880 then there was a racially charged murder. So I was 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:26.240 really deep into other stories and every time that I 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.200 would come home, it's just photographing my family was something 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.360 I did. It's not really something I thought about. So, 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:34.760 the first time I heard of you actually was that 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:37.680 I went to go see a pop Up magazine live 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:39.880 performance in New York and this was in I want 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:43.600 to say, seventeen. Does that sounds right? It was? Okay, 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.360 So it was definitely post And I know this because 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:53.400 your whole presentation was effectively on photographing your family, UM, 0:07:53.480 --> 0:07:55.760 which we'll get into detail on sort of why they're 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.160 interesting to begin with, because that's obviously what makes the 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.440 book so great. But what about doing this talk in 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.280 like inspired you to say, like, Okay, I have something here, 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:06.920 because I feel like that may have been a turning 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:11.560 point of of realizing that, okay, beyond just my family, 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.320 which we all have one UM and obviously they're very 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:19.240 colorful people who demonstrate their personality in one image, which 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.000 not everybody can do. Lots of leopard print, lots of diamonds, 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:27.440 lots of lots of lipstick. I love it all. The 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:31.240 hair is incredible. UM. But yeah, So, so tell me 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:34.839 about like that process and your storytelling there and how 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:39.000 that may be led to this project. Pop Up had 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:41.560 approached me. I've been talking in conversation with them for 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.840 years and figuring out what story would be right. And 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.640 they actually called me in twenty January and they caught 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:54.000 me at this moment where I was in real crisis. Um. 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.319 First of all, I had just given birth a couple 0:08:56.360 --> 0:09:00.840 of months before to my second daughter, and I was 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:05.560 definitely having postpartum, and also it was postpartum mixed with 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:08.240 my family's love for Trump all of a sudden at 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:14.160 the simultaneously at the same exact time. So in January interesting, 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.200 I mean all of a sudden. Was it like prior 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.040 to that, you you didn't quite understand like the political 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.800 implications of of their politics or I just know I 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:27.239 knew that they were I knew that they were fiscally conservative, 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.280 but this was but they had also you know, my 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:32.840 dad was a huge fan of Bill Clinton, so and 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.200 they kind of pride themselves on being independent voters. So 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:41.080 this kind of like real fervent love of Trump was 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:45.920 something that threw me. And the maligning of Hillary Clinton 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:50.480 was something that just threw me for such a loop 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:55.160 and such an existential crisis that it's hard to really describe. 0:09:55.320 --> 0:10:00.760 And I but I do. I do remember specifically when 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.080 I learned about it and how I learned about it, 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:07.679 because that will never leave me um, And I didn't 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:12.280 take it seriously until I realized it was serious. But 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:14.760 it was amazing because pop Up had I just wanted 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.440 to because it is kind of a great story. How 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:20.679 they had called and they said, you know, I remember 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:24.280 these pictures of your family, Um, do you have any 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:26.440 stories about your family you want to share? And I'm like, 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.040 this is not a good time, and I'm I'm friendly 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.400 with the producer, so I felt like I could be honest, 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:34.760 but you know, off the record, and I said, look, 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:37.480 I just came back. I was photographing the Women's March 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.800 and my parents. To give you the short end of 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.320 the story, my parents were there in d C at 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:45.160 the same time I was there, but they were there 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:52.280 for the inauguration and me immediately, you know, she was like, Okay, 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.959 I understand this is hard, but can you just give 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.320 me the chance to tell you why making this story 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.800 and and sharing the story would be important. And the 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.960 thing about pop up is that it's a you can't 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:08.440 record it. There's no if you're not in the audience, 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.400 it didn't exist. So that's a really really safe place 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:16.040 to share material. When I did that, I realized how 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.240 my story was not just my story because so many 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:23.000 people reached out to me. Besides it being the most cathartic, 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:28.280 you know, experience of writing this painful about this painful 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:32.240 time and kind of putting it all together. Um, so 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.040 many people reached out to me who are in the 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.080 audience and said, oh, my goodness, this is happening to 0:11:37.120 --> 0:11:39.400 me as well, like, thank you so much for sharing this, 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.520 because I don't think people were talking about this, you know, 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:47.000 it was like so shameful at the time. So it 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.160 was just it was then that kind of bells went off, like, 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.760 oh my goodness, this is resonating with other people, and 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.400 it's not about my family. It's about what they're going 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.920 through as well with their family. If you look through 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:00.400 the book even or have seen any of your hostwork 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.920 of your family, it's very clear that these people live 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.320 out loud like they are. They seem to be the 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:07.160 type of person when you meet and you say, wow, 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.400 that person is a thousand percent themselves a million percent 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.320 of the time they speak their mind. You can tell 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.160 from the image they are, you know, full of jade 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.160 Vieve if you will. But I imagine that that also 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.640 translates to a very loud sort of trumpeting of their 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.840 political beliefs. So, you know, I think it's the holidays 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.160 and we all are coming to terms of the fact 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:36.800 that politics have been an intense subject for the past 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.080 few years, especially UM, but a lot of people, you know, 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.200 sort of abide by the like we don't talk about it. 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.200 It's like not something we bring up. I imagine that 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:48.280 wasn't really an option for you. That wasn't an option, UM, 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.120 which is why I also thought reproducing the text messages 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:56.440 in the book and the exhibition we're very important because 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.840 that's how we tend to communicate with people now. And 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:05.960 it got so toxic. Um, it got so toxic, and 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.239 a lot of a lot of my five years was dictated, 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.280 my mental state was dictated by our family text chain 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:17.000 and UM. And that's why I included that. But I 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:20.160 you know, it's it's interesting, we're going into Thanksgiving right now, 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:22.600 and that's always such the marker for me. I've photographed 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:27.160 my family's thanksgivings for decades, and in two thousand and 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.920 sixteen it was really a question whether we were going 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:37.760 to go, oh wow, and UM we went and then 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:41.720 you see in the book the photograph where UM, I 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.760 just took I didn't take any other pictures really except 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.360 my parents and their aprons in the kitchen, and then 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.760 the photograph of my place seating um which had all 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:57.240 Trump Pence paraphernalia all around it. Um. So it was 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.960 like my they were kind of they thought it was funny, 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.160 right of course. Yeah, I mean they thought it was 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.199 funny in that because they knew that it would get 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:09.600 a rise out of you specifically, or or are there 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.000 other people present that you sort of feel like you 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:13.840 have an ally at the table or when you're there, 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.840 is it very much you as an outsider. My husband 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:21.800 was my ally, and and we have a large family, 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:26.400 and I think we were outliers in that room and 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.640 it felt like we were visiting a bit of a cult. 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:36.040 So so anyway, when I you know, all of the 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:38.920 past four Thanksgivings, you know, when I think back to 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.920 last Thanksgiving, COVID Thanksgiving, it was right before the election, 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.000 and it was a very emotional. It was a very 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:51.160 emotional Thanksgiving. So I'm hoping that I'm hoping that this 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:55.560 Thanksgiving will be less heavy. We'll be right back with 0:14:55.640 --> 0:15:08.880 Jillian Laub and me Alison Reman after a quick break. Hi, again, 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:12.240 it's Alison Roman standing in for Katie Kirk. I'm talking 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.840 with the photographer Jillian Laub about her book and exhibit 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.440 Family Matters. We're about to dive into one of the 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.080 details and makings of some of the photographs, like one 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.640 of my favorite photos, which is called the wedding Planner? 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:27.440 Is that your wedding planner? Okay, so that's that. I 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.160 don't know where this photo is taken, but there are 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:32.400 the right number of wine glasses on the table, which 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:36.080 is to say, fo um. And this woman is looking 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:38.560 into the camera and your parents, I believe, are looking 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.360 at her. She's sitting in the middle, and she is 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:46.760 I mean, she's a legend. She she I must know 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:49.240 more about her. I need to know about this woman. 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:53.600 You know, I'm so upset because she she passed away, 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:58.760 and oh I'm sorry, I am. So it's a lesson 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.000 in her passing. It's a lesson to say, don't ever 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:06.280 postpone or procrastinate any projects you want to do, which 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:07.880 I do all the time because I always have a 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.720 million projects I'm working on simultaneously. But I always wanted 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:16.320 to make a short film about her, and it kills 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:20.560 me that I never did. Um. Anyway, her name was 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.640 Harriet Rose Cats and she's kind of a New York 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.160 She was a New York icon in the party planning business, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.600 so you need to look her up because her business 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:35.360 still exists. But um, but she was quite um the grandam. 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:37.840 I love her well. I think that's the other thing 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.520 about all these photos, whether your family or not, they 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:42.760 you look at them and you want to know more 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:47.600 about each person, and like they are just like teaming 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:51.360 with personality and every single person every single photograph You're like, 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.120 I need to spend time with this person. I need 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:59.720 to absolutely like have Mr Tini with this woman or 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.200 have this you know man who presumably your father make 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:09.120 my next Thanksgiving turkey? You can Thanksgiving? Thank you? I will. Um, 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.200 what if it's it? What was the energy of your 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.000 family being photographed all the time. I'm sure they're used 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:17.800 to it, but how has their energy changed behind the 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:21.120 lens or i'm sorry, in front of the lens from 0:17:21.200 --> 0:17:23.200 when you first started doing it to now. Is there 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:24.960 ever like a moment where they didn't like it or 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.320 they felt tense? Have they loosened up over the years. 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.600 I think my mom is the hardest person for me 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:34.159 to photograph. My grandparents were real characters and they weren't 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.560 self conscious. But with the camera, they were just who 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:40.719 they were and they weren't really aware of it, and 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.600 it was kind of fun for them and it was 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.159 we had fun with the camera and so my So 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.840 it's it's hard because there's so many generations that I photographed, 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:57.480 So the grandparents and that generation, Um, it really was fun. 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:02.480 It was harder to photograph my immediate family and um, 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:06.200 they were more conscious of it, more self conscious. Um, 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.560 and especially during the Trump years, they would you know, 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:11.800 they trusted me, which is a big deal and I 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.960 take that. I do not take that lightly. Um, but 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:17.840 they would be worried and say are you are you 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:21.240 making us look bad? Are you judging us? Are you? 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:25.639 And so so there was a self consciousness that started, 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.560 um in the past four or five years. Um. But 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:32.800 they really are I mean, I'm I'm used to being 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:35.720 called annoying and they're constantly yelling at me to put 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.720 the cap down when it's like too much, I've crossed 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:42.720 the line and I had, Yeah, but they but they 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:47.880 are really generous with with allowing me to document their lives. Yeah, 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:51.040 And I mean there's also like to that point, because 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.160 it spans so many years. There's like a really beautiful 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.719 narrative arc of watching people grow up and watching people age, 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.840 and you know how they change. And I'm sure that 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:06.320 you changed so much in those years, and I feel 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:08.679 like everything gets a little softer towards the end, and 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:11.960 I'm sure that's like you growing up, and also just 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:15.200 like approaching things with a different like, it becomes less 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:17.639 funny and more of like, I don't know what the 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:20.119 word is, but there's something very tender about especially the 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.840 last towards the end of the book, the later photos, well, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.720 I mean there is it is done with so much love. 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.840 You know, there's so much we have, so much love 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.920 in our family and for each other, and so I'm 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:38.000 glad that that comes through even in the most difficult pictures. 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.480 At what point did you decide that this was going 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:43.760 to be a book? Though? You know, given that, like 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:45.920 this is such a long project. I think most people, 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.080 especially nowadays, we think of the creative process is like 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.119 a two to three year thing, or there's just this 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:54.040 constant pressure to put work out at this clip that 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:56.960 is relatively unsustainable, if I do say so myself. But 0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:59.320 this is such a long thing. You could have gone 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:01.159 another ten year, as I imagine, So what was it 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:03.080 about now that you felt like was the right time? 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.520 So I think that I realized that it was a 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:10.919 book after pop up. I spent the next year really 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:16.120 looking through tens of thousands of pictures and kind of 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:20.880 working out the narrative of the first fifteen years that 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:23.760 led us up to this moment, like what led us 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.600 up to this very moment where we're at. So I 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.879 spent about a year to really thinking about that and 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:37.439 UM and writing and photographing. I kept photographing, and then 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.919 I thought, then, you know, it's funny because the publisher 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.760 of the book was in the audience. So I think 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:50.440 that it was at the time I did, because they 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:55.959 published Aperture published my first book, Testimony UM. So it 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.040 was apparent that I wanted to work with them again 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:04.560 because I trusted them UM, and they were really um 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:09.160 respectful of my time and the fact that I couldn't 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.960 have like I had to figure out when the right 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.520 time was. So it took a couple of years, and 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:18.200 in fact, we were meant to publish it the fall 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:23.040 of at the election during the election, and I had 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:27.040 to postpone it because COVID just turned to everything. It 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:31.440 just it changed everything and kind of reopened up all 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:34.600 the wounds that I spent, you know, the last two 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.960 years trying to heal and um so I postponed the 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:43.280 book and it wasn't without It was hard to make 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:46.680 that decision because I know that it wasn't convenient for them, 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:50.239 but they trusted in my gut that it was you know, 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:54.640 the project needed time to I needed time to digest 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:57.560 everything that was happening. And I'm never it's never about 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:00.439 just getting it out. It's it's about the quality of 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.399 the work, and the quality is not It's not about 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:06.760 crunching or making a timeline. It's about letting the work, 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.640 knowing when it's finished, and that could take a while. Yeah. Wait, 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.720 that's really interesting. So what changed in the law in 0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:16.320 that year that you had that you sort of were like, Okay, 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:18.919 it's definitely not ready now, But a year later you 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:21.400 were like, okay, I feel ready to sort of part 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:23.840 with this. Did it? Did it expand? And it contracted? 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:27.960 It changed well. Right before the pandemic, I was at 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.040 a place and I write about this in the book. 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.479 I was at a place where I was kind of 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:36.200 like a healing, accepting moment, and then the pandemic happened, 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:42.040 and it's just everything Just like I said, it was 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:47.280 just like opening up old wounds, and the tension and 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:51.840 fighting got worse than it ever was um and the 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:57.480 politics got more divisive, and so so there was no 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:02.320 everything that I resolved. Just it's just I had no 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:06.360 resolution anymore. It was like, wait, this is not okay, 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:08.959 and I don't know when it's going to be. And 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:11.760 I don't know when I'm going to be able to 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:15.640 finish this because I don't know what's going to happen next. 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:18.679 How What has been the response from your family in 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.720 sort of retrospect, because I imagine there's a lot of 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:25.639 not just memories from them and their loved ones, Like 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:28.479 we're looking at it very objectively as the audience, and 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:30.639 we're either looking at it from a technical aspect like 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:32.919 this is a beautiful photograph or an interesting person or 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:35.680 the sort of political backstory, But this is there, These 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:37.359 are their lives. This is sort of like you have 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:41.320 curated this beautiful gifts for them, this memory book of 0:23:41.359 --> 0:23:43.520 people that are probably no longer with us, some people 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:47.480 that have, you know, live elsewhere. I don't know, I 0:23:47.520 --> 0:23:49.720 feel like it's probably bringing up a lot of stuff 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:52.960 for them, not just for you. But oh yeah, there. 0:23:52.960 --> 0:23:56.800