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Speaker 1: Hello, everyone, welcome to next Question with Katie Kirk. I,

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Speaker 1: as I'm sure you've gathered, I'm not Katie Kirk. I'm

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Speaker 1: Alison Roman. I'm a New York based cook writer. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you're familiar with some of my cookbooks. One of them

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Speaker 1: is called Dining In, one of them is called Nothing Fancy.

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Speaker 1: I've got a newsletter, not so cleverly called a newsletter.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe you've seen my home movies on YouTube. Hello, Hello, Hello,

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Speaker 1: good morning, Welcome to her movies. I'm Allison Roman. And

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Speaker 1: today I am making Today, I am making Today, I'm

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Speaker 1: making pasta, salad, cinnamon rolls, lots of brye potato, leak suit,

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Speaker 1: a sticky apple cake, shrim scampy shallop pasta. But today

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Speaker 1: I'm stepping in for Katie while she takes a quick

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Speaker 1: break for her book tour. And today we'll be making

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Speaker 1: no just kidding, Today we will be doing something totally different. Wait, Alice,

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Speaker 1: and how tell me? How long are you doing this?

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Speaker 1: This is so great? This is it? This is the

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Speaker 1: only one. You're my You're my one guest. Yeah really

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Speaker 1: and really yeah yeah, I'm only I'm only doing the

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Speaker 1: one and this is so honored. Today I'm talking to

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Speaker 1: Jillian Love. Jillian is a photographer and a filmmaker, and

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Speaker 1: I've been following her work for a while now. She's

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Speaker 1: mostly known for making extremely gorgeous portraits of very famous

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Speaker 1: people musicians, politicians, actors, but she's also a really thoughtful

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Speaker 1: photojournalistic essay maker. She does political conflict, racial tensions, marginalized communities.

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Speaker 1: She really dives deep into these lesser talked about, lesser

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Speaker 1: seeen communities and people. I first came across Jillian and

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Speaker 1: her work around I think it was it was a

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Speaker 1: live event where she was showing some of her newer

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Speaker 1: photographs and explaining them in front of a live audience,

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Speaker 1: how they made her feel, why they were important to her,

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Speaker 1: you know, on stage, in front of a ton of people.

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Speaker 1: And I was very moved by her performance. This was

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Speaker 1: part of a larger show called pop Up Magazine, which,

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Speaker 1: as indicates, is a live magazine created just for the stage.

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Speaker 1: So I love that that was your first um time

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Speaker 1: you Yeah, I love that because that was such an

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Speaker 1: important moment for me and such a turning point. The

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Speaker 1: photographs she was showing then were of her super close

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Speaker 1: family who were recently let's say Divided by politics. Four

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Speaker 1: years later, that project is now a gorgeous book and

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Speaker 1: collection and exhibit at the i c P in New

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Speaker 1: York called Family Matters. I chatted with Jillian of Razoom

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Speaker 1: just before the Thanksgiving break, and here's our conversation. Before

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Speaker 1: we get started, I want to hear a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about your background, where you come from, how this

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Speaker 1: came to be, because I feel like the journey you

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Speaker 1: started on you weren't like I'm going to be it.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to photograph of my family as this long

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Speaker 1: term checked. It was sort of like woven into what

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Speaker 1: you had already been doing. Yeah, so it has been

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Speaker 1: over twenty years. This the book is over twenty years

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Speaker 1: of work. So it didn't start out as the intention

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Speaker 1: was never like this is going to be a project.

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Speaker 1: It was I just started photographing my family, and I

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Speaker 1: think I described it in the book in the beginning.

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Speaker 1: You know, it began really I was an art student

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Speaker 1: in New York UM and I was one of the

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Speaker 1: only American Americans in my program. Oddly it was at

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Speaker 1: the International Center of Photography and UM there was this moment,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'd always been interested in photographing, UM other people.

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Speaker 1: I'm such a curious person, so my work was really

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Speaker 1: centered around, um, you know, learning about other people, telling

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Speaker 1: other stories. I never thought of myself or my family

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Speaker 1: as a subject um. But then something happened. UM when

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Speaker 1: I was a student and where I was outside taking

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Speaker 1: a cigarette break with a bunch of my classmates and

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Speaker 1: a classmate of mine, um from Scandinavia, was doing a

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Speaker 1: project on capitalism, and he he pointed to these women

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Speaker 1: across the street and he said, look at those women

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Speaker 1: in their vulgar fancy for coats. And I was like, oh, yeah, goodness,

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Speaker 1: And he was like, I don't understand these fur coats

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Speaker 1: because at the at the time the schools on the

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Speaker 1: Upper East Side, And as they came closer, my heart

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Speaker 1: started racing because the realization struck that it was my mom,

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Speaker 1: my aunt and my grandma. Like yeah, not only do

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Speaker 1: I know them, but I come from there exactly. So

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Speaker 1: it was just that that moment where kind of my

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Speaker 1: world's collided and I and so that's really kind of

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Speaker 1: where it started. And that's when I just started photographing

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Speaker 1: my family for myself, and and then it just kept

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Speaker 1: growing and it was just something I did. Um, but

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Speaker 1: It's not anything that I had intended to be a

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Speaker 1: project until um, the past four years, it became very

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Speaker 1: apparent that actually, this the narrative is enfolding to me.

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Speaker 1: What were you doing in the interim? So you had

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Speaker 1: been documenting your family, you know, since then as an

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Speaker 1: ongoing project, but what was sort of the thing that

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Speaker 1: you focused on. So basically, you know, when I came

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Speaker 1: out of school, I started, UM, I just did drop

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Speaker 1: off portfolio drop offs and the best photography and magazines

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Speaker 1: was at the New York Times magazine, and I dropped

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Speaker 1: my portfolio off there and I got a cover story

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Speaker 1: right away, and I started having work in shows. But

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Speaker 1: I really after September eleven. UM. I was put on

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Speaker 1: assignment during September eleven to photograph people who had lost

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Speaker 1: people in the towers, and I realized the power of

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Speaker 1: the exchange of photographer and subject and how it's a

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Speaker 1: real it's something is happening when you're making a portrait

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Speaker 1: of another person. And it was that moment where people

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Speaker 1: were in mourning and we didn't know each other, and

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Speaker 1: it was this really powerful exchange that happened, and it

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Speaker 1: was like the photograph was their moment to say like,

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Speaker 1: we're not just a number, like look at us, look

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Speaker 1: at our loved one, look at who we lost. And

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Speaker 1: it was about three to four weeks of photographing a

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Speaker 1: lot of families and something happened where I just said,

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Speaker 1: I need to work on a project that because it

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Speaker 1: was two years of just assignment, assignment, assignment that I

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Speaker 1: really wanted to make for myself that I was interested in.

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Speaker 1: So I went too. I started working in the Middle East,

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Speaker 1: and for the next five years, I was really working

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Speaker 1: on this project called Testimony with Israeli Jews, is really

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Speaker 1: Arabs and Palestinians um kind of how they were affected

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Speaker 1: by the Second Anti Fata, And then I was um.

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Speaker 1: I learned about this own in Georgia where they were

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Speaker 1: having segregated proms. So it started out as assignment and

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Speaker 1: then continued for the next ten to twelve years as

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Speaker 1: I've tried to understand the roots of how this town

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Speaker 1: had segregated problems up until two thousand and ten, and

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Speaker 1: then there was a racially charged murder. So I was

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Speaker 1: really deep into other stories and every time that I

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Speaker 1: would come home, it's just photographing my family was something

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Speaker 1: I did. It's not really something I thought about. So,

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Speaker 1: the first time I heard of you actually was that

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Speaker 1: I went to go see a pop Up magazine live

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Speaker 1: performance in New York and this was in I want

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Speaker 1: to say, seventeen. Does that sounds right? It was? Okay,

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Speaker 1: So it was definitely post And I know this because

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Speaker 1: your whole presentation was effectively on photographing your family, UM,

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Speaker 1: which we'll get into detail on sort of why they're

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Speaker 1: interesting to begin with, because that's obviously what makes the

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Speaker 1: book so great. But what about doing this talk in

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Speaker 1: like inspired you to say, like, Okay, I have something here,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like that may have been a turning

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Speaker 1: point of of realizing that, okay, beyond just my family,

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Speaker 1: which we all have one UM and obviously they're very

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Speaker 1: colorful people who demonstrate their personality in one image, which

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Speaker 1: not everybody can do. Lots of leopard print, lots of diamonds,

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Speaker 1: lots of lots of lipstick. I love it all. The

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Speaker 1: hair is incredible. UM. But yeah, So, so tell me

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Speaker 1: about like that process and your storytelling there and how

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Speaker 1: that may be led to this project. Pop Up had

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Speaker 1: approached me. I've been talking in conversation with them for

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Speaker 1: years and figuring out what story would be right. And

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Speaker 1: they actually called me in twenty January and they caught

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Speaker 1: me at this moment where I was in real crisis. Um.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I had just given birth a couple

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Speaker 1: of months before to my second daughter, and I was

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Speaker 1: definitely having postpartum, and also it was postpartum mixed with

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Speaker 1: my family's love for Trump all of a sudden at

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Speaker 1: the simultaneously at the same exact time. So in January interesting,

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Speaker 1: I mean all of a sudden. Was it like prior

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Speaker 1: to that, you you didn't quite understand like the political

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Speaker 1: implications of of their politics or I just know I

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Speaker 1: knew that they were I knew that they were fiscally conservative,

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Speaker 1: but this was but they had also you know, my

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Speaker 1: dad was a huge fan of Bill Clinton, so and

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Speaker 1: they kind of pride themselves on being independent voters. So

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Speaker 1: this kind of like real fervent love of Trump was

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Speaker 1: something that threw me. And the maligning of Hillary Clinton

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Speaker 1: was something that just threw me for such a loop

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Speaker 1: and such an existential crisis that it's hard to really describe.

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Speaker 1: And I but I do. I do remember specifically when

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Speaker 1: I learned about it and how I learned about it,

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Speaker 1: because that will never leave me um, And I didn't

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Speaker 1: take it seriously until I realized it was serious. But

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Speaker 1: it was amazing because pop Up had I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to because it is kind of a great story. How

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Speaker 1: they had called and they said, you know, I remember

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Speaker 1: these pictures of your family, Um, do you have any

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Speaker 1: stories about your family you want to share? And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: this is not a good time, and I'm I'm friendly

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Speaker 1: with the producer, so I felt like I could be honest,

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Speaker 1: but you know, off the record, and I said, look,

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Speaker 1: I just came back. I was photographing the Women's March

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Speaker 1: and my parents. To give you the short end of

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Speaker 1: the story, my parents were there in d C at

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Speaker 1: the same time I was there, but they were there

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Speaker 1: for the inauguration and me immediately, you know, she was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I understand this is hard, but can you just give

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Speaker 1: me the chance to tell you why making this story

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Speaker 1: and and sharing the story would be important. And the

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Speaker 1: thing about pop up is that it's a you can't

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Speaker 1: record it. There's no if you're not in the audience,

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Speaker 1: it didn't exist. So that's a really really safe place

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Speaker 1: to share material. When I did that, I realized how

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Speaker 1: my story was not just my story because so many

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Speaker 1: people reached out to me. Besides it being the most cathartic,

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Speaker 1: you know, experience of writing this painful about this painful

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Speaker 1: time and kind of putting it all together. Um, so

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Speaker 1: many people reached out to me who are in the

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Speaker 1: audience and said, oh, my goodness, this is happening to

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Speaker 1: me as well, like, thank you so much for sharing this,

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Speaker 1: because I don't think people were talking about this, you know,

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Speaker 1: it was like so shameful at the time. So it

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Speaker 1: was just it was then that kind of bells went off, like,

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Speaker 1: oh my goodness, this is resonating with other people, and

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Speaker 1: it's not about my family. It's about what they're going

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Speaker 1: through as well with their family. If you look through

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Speaker 1: the book even or have seen any of your hostwork

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Speaker 1: of your family, it's very clear that these people live

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Speaker 1: out loud like they are. They seem to be the

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Speaker 1: type of person when you meet and you say, wow,

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Speaker 1: that person is a thousand percent themselves a million percent

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Speaker 1: of the time they speak their mind. You can tell

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Speaker 1: from the image they are, you know, full of jade

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Speaker 1: Vieve if you will. But I imagine that that also

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Speaker 1: translates to a very loud sort of trumpeting of their

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Speaker 1: political beliefs. So, you know, I think it's the holidays

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Speaker 1: and we all are coming to terms of the fact

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Speaker 1: that politics have been an intense subject for the past

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Speaker 1: few years, especially UM, but a lot of people, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of abide by the like we don't talk about it.

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Speaker 1: It's like not something we bring up. I imagine that

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Speaker 1: wasn't really an option for you. That wasn't an option, UM,

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Speaker 1: which is why I also thought reproducing the text messages

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Speaker 1: in the book and the exhibition we're very important because

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Speaker 1: that's how we tend to communicate with people now. And

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Speaker 1: it got so toxic. Um, it got so toxic, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of my five years was dictated,

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Speaker 1: my mental state was dictated by our family text chain

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Speaker 1: and UM. And that's why I included that. But I

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's interesting, we're going into Thanksgiving right now,

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Speaker 1: and that's always such the marker for me. I've photographed

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Speaker 1: my family's thanksgivings for decades, and in two thousand and

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Speaker 1: sixteen it was really a question whether we were going

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Speaker 1: to go, oh wow, and UM we went and then

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Speaker 1: you see in the book the photograph where UM, I

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Speaker 1: just took I didn't take any other pictures really except

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Speaker 1: my parents and their aprons in the kitchen, and then

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Speaker 1: the photograph of my place seating um which had all

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Speaker 1: Trump Pence paraphernalia all around it. Um. So it was

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Speaker 1: like my they were kind of they thought it was funny,

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Speaker 1: right of course. Yeah, I mean they thought it was

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Speaker 1: funny in that because they knew that it would get

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Speaker 1: a rise out of you specifically, or or are there

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Speaker 1: other people present that you sort of feel like you

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Speaker 1: have an ally at the table or when you're there,

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Speaker 1: is it very much you as an outsider. My husband

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Speaker 1: was my ally, and and we have a large family,

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Speaker 1: and I think we were outliers in that room and

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Speaker 1: it felt like we were visiting a bit of a cult.

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Speaker 1: So so anyway, when I you know, all of the

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Speaker 1: past four Thanksgivings, you know, when I think back to

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Speaker 1: last Thanksgiving, COVID Thanksgiving, it was right before the election,

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Speaker 1: and it was a very emotional. It was a very

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Speaker 1: emotional Thanksgiving. So I'm hoping that I'm hoping that this

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Speaker 1: Thanksgiving will be less heavy. We'll be right back with

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Speaker 1: Jillian Laub and me Alison Reman after a quick break. Hi, again,

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Speaker 1: it's Alison Roman standing in for Katie Kirk. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: with the photographer Jillian Laub about her book and exhibit

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Speaker 1: Family Matters. We're about to dive into one of the

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Speaker 1: details and makings of some of the photographs, like one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite photos, which is called the wedding Planner?

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Speaker 1: Is that your wedding planner? Okay, so that's that. I

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Speaker 1: don't know where this photo is taken, but there are

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Speaker 1: the right number of wine glasses on the table, which

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Speaker 1: is to say, fo um. And this woman is looking

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Speaker 1: into the camera and your parents, I believe, are looking

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Speaker 1: at her. She's sitting in the middle, and she is

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Speaker 1: I mean, she's a legend. She she I must know

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Speaker 1: more about her. I need to know about this woman.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm so upset because she she passed away,

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Speaker 1: and oh I'm sorry, I am. So it's a lesson

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Speaker 1: in her passing. It's a lesson to say, don't ever

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Speaker 1: postpone or procrastinate any projects you want to do, which

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Speaker 1: I do all the time because I always have a

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Speaker 1: million projects I'm working on simultaneously. But I always wanted

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Speaker 1: to make a short film about her, and it kills

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Speaker 1: me that I never did. Um. Anyway, her name was

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Speaker 1: Harriet Rose Cats and she's kind of a New York

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Speaker 1: She was a New York icon in the party planning business,

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Speaker 1: so you need to look her up because her business

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Speaker 1: still exists. But um, but she was quite um the grandam.

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Speaker 1: I love her well. I think that's the other thing

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Speaker 1: about all these photos, whether your family or not, they

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Speaker 1: you look at them and you want to know more

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Speaker 1: about each person, and like they are just like teaming

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Speaker 1: with personality and every single person every single photograph You're like,

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Speaker 1: I need to spend time with this person. I need

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Speaker 1: to absolutely like have Mr Tini with this woman or

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Speaker 1: have this you know man who presumably your father make

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Speaker 1: my next Thanksgiving turkey? You can Thanksgiving? Thank you? I will. Um,

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Speaker 1: what if it's it? What was the energy of your

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Speaker 1: family being photographed all the time. I'm sure they're used

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Speaker 1: to it, but how has their energy changed behind the

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Speaker 1: lens or i'm sorry, in front of the lens from

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Speaker 1: when you first started doing it to now. Is there

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Speaker 1: ever like a moment where they didn't like it or

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Speaker 1: they felt tense? Have they loosened up over the years.

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Speaker 1: I think my mom is the hardest person for me

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Speaker 1: to photograph. My grandparents were real characters and they weren't

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Speaker 1: self conscious. But with the camera, they were just who

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Speaker 1: they were and they weren't really aware of it, and

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Speaker 1: it was kind of fun for them and it was

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Speaker 1: we had fun with the camera and so my So

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Speaker 1: it's it's hard because there's so many generations that I photographed,

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Speaker 1: So the grandparents and that generation, Um, it really was fun.

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Speaker 1: It was harder to photograph my immediate family and um,

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Speaker 1: they were more conscious of it, more self conscious. Um,

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Speaker 1: and especially during the Trump years, they would you know,

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Speaker 1: they trusted me, which is a big deal and I

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Speaker 1: take that. I do not take that lightly. Um, but

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Speaker 1: they would be worried and say are you are you

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Speaker 1: making us look bad? Are you judging us? Are you?

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Speaker 1: And so so there was a self consciousness that started,

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Speaker 1: um in the past four or five years. Um. But

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Speaker 1: they really are I mean, I'm I'm used to being

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Speaker 1: called annoying and they're constantly yelling at me to put

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Speaker 1: the cap down when it's like too much, I've crossed

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Speaker 1: the line and I had, Yeah, but they but they

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Speaker 1: are really generous with with allowing me to document their lives. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I mean there's also like to that point, because

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Speaker 1: it spans so many years. There's like a really beautiful

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Speaker 1: narrative arc of watching people grow up and watching people age,

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Speaker 1: and you know how they change. And I'm sure that

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Speaker 1: you changed so much in those years, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like everything gets a little softer towards the end, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that's like you growing up, and also just

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Speaker 1: like approaching things with a different like, it becomes less

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Speaker 1: funny and more of like, I don't know what the

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Speaker 1: word is, but there's something very tender about especially the

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Speaker 1: last towards the end of the book, the later photos, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean there is it is done with so much love.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's so much we have, so much love

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Speaker 1: in our family and for each other, and so I'm

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Speaker 1: glad that that comes through even in the most difficult pictures.

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Speaker 1: At what point did you decide that this was going

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Speaker 1: to be a book? Though? You know, given that, like

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Speaker 1: this is such a long project. I think most people,

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Speaker 1: especially nowadays, we think of the creative process is like

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Speaker 1: a two to three year thing, or there's just this

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Speaker 1: constant pressure to put work out at this clip that

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Speaker 1: is relatively unsustainable, if I do say so myself. But

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Speaker 1: this is such a long thing. You could have gone

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Speaker 1: another ten year, as I imagine, So what was it

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Speaker 1: about now that you felt like was the right time?

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Speaker 1: So I think that I realized that it was a

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Speaker 1: book after pop up. I spent the next year really

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Speaker 1: looking through tens of thousands of pictures and kind of

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Speaker 1: working out the narrative of the first fifteen years that

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Speaker 1: led us up to this moment, like what led us

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Speaker 1: up to this very moment where we're at. So I

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Speaker 1: spent about a year to really thinking about that and

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Speaker 1: UM and writing and photographing. I kept photographing, and then

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Speaker 1: I thought, then, you know, it's funny because the publisher

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Speaker 1: of the book was in the audience. So I think

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Speaker 1: that it was at the time I did, because they

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Speaker 1: published Aperture published my first book, Testimony UM. So it

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Speaker 1: was apparent that I wanted to work with them again

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Speaker 1: because I trusted them UM, and they were really um

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Speaker 1: respectful of my time and the fact that I couldn't

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Speaker 1: have like I had to figure out when the right

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Speaker 1: time was. So it took a couple of years, and

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Speaker 1: in fact, we were meant to publish it the fall

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Speaker 1: of at the election during the election, and I had

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Speaker 1: to postpone it because COVID just turned to everything. It

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Speaker 1: just it changed everything and kind of reopened up all

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Speaker 1: the wounds that I spent, you know, the last two

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Speaker 1: years trying to heal and um so I postponed the

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Speaker 1: book and it wasn't without It was hard to make

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Speaker 1: that decision because I know that it wasn't convenient for them,

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Speaker 1: but they trusted in my gut that it was you know,

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Speaker 1: the project needed time to I needed time to digest

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Speaker 1: everything that was happening. And I'm never it's never about

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Speaker 1: just getting it out. It's it's about the quality of

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Speaker 1: the work, and the quality is not It's not about

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Speaker 1: crunching or making a timeline. It's about letting the work,

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Speaker 1: knowing when it's finished, and that could take a while. Yeah. Wait,

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Speaker 1: that's really interesting. So what changed in the law in

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Speaker 1: that year that you had that you sort of were like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's definitely not ready now, But a year later you

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Speaker 1: were like, okay, I feel ready to sort of part

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Speaker 1: with this. Did it? Did it expand? And it contracted?

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Speaker 1: It changed well. Right before the pandemic, I was at

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Speaker 1: a place and I write about this in the book.

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Speaker 1: I was at a place where I was kind of

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Speaker 1: like a healing, accepting moment, and then the pandemic happened,

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Speaker 1: and it's just everything Just like I said, it was

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Speaker 1: just like opening up old wounds, and the tension and

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Speaker 1: fighting got worse than it ever was um and the

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Speaker 1: politics got more divisive, and so so there was no

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Speaker 1: everything that I resolved. Just it's just I had no

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Speaker 1: resolution anymore. It was like, wait, this is not okay,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know when it's going to be. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know when I'm going to be able to

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Speaker 1: finish this because I don't know what's going to happen next.

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Speaker 1: How What has been the response from your family in

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Speaker 1: sort of retrospect, because I imagine there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: not just memories from them and their loved ones, Like

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Speaker 1: we're looking at it very objectively as the audience, and

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Speaker 1: we're either looking at it from a technical aspect like

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Speaker 1: this is a beautiful photograph or an interesting person or

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Speaker 1: the sort of political backstory, But this is there, These

395
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 1: are their lives. This is sort of like you have

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Speaker 1: curated this beautiful gifts for them, this memory book of

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Speaker 1: people that are probably no longer with us, some people

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Speaker 1: that have, you know, live elsewhere. I don't know, I

399
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Speaker 1: feel like it's probably bringing up a lot of stuff

400
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Speaker 1: for them, not just for you. But oh yeah, there.

401
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: It was very emotional before the book came out, you know, publicly.

402
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: I sat with my family, all my family members, and

403
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 1: while they read it and I sat with them, um,

404
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: and those were some really really intense weeks. Those are

405
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 1: really intense conversations. Um. It took. I'm glad we had

406
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: that time before to process it together. UM. But I

407
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: think we were all better for it because there were

408
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: things that needed to be discussed. And I think that

409
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 1: they understood me more and respected me more. Um, after

410
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: they read it, I felt understood in a way that

411
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Speaker 1: I had never felt under I hadn't felt understood before.

412
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Speaker 1: That's incredible. I mean, that's that's truly like the best

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Speaker 1: therapy that a person could ask for, or that money

414
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Speaker 1: could buy. I imagine it did. Should we Should we

415
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Speaker 1: all go do a photo book of our family and

416
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Speaker 1: see what happens? Maybe we could be closer ahead. No, No,

417
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Speaker 1: there was at the exhibition. I saw a father brought

418
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Speaker 1: his son there, twenty year old boy, and they came

419
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Speaker 1: over and they said, oh, were you the artist? And

420
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Speaker 1: they said, thank you so much. We haven't been able

421
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Speaker 1: to talk and UM, the young the twenty year old

422
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Speaker 1: was like, I have not. My father brought me here

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Speaker 1: because I haven't talked to him and this was our way.

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Speaker 1: So it was just so moving that they used this

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Speaker 1: work in order to open up their dialogue from the

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Speaker 1: tension that they had from the past um four years,

427
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Speaker 1: and it was it was incredibly powerful. That's beautiful. Has

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Speaker 1: there been Have there been any photographs or were there

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00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: any photographs from the book or any pieces of text

430
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: or any anything you had written or shared with the

431
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: world that anyone in your family was like, that's too

432
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: far or I'd really rather you not. Um, yes, now

433
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: it's not yes, no, no. I mean there's a couple

434
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: of things. Well, first of all, the text messages were UM.

435
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: I was very careful because those are private messages, UM,

436
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 1: and that I labored over which text messages were appropriate

437
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: to share. And there was a photograph of my nephew,

438
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: a portrait of my nephew in his bedroom, UM that

439
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: I thought was one of the strongest pictures I've ever made,

440
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: one of the strongest portraits I ever made, and it

441
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 1: was him surrounded by all the Trump paraphernalia. It was

442
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: actually in the pop up show UM. But he asked

443
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: me not to um, not to publish it in the book,

444
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: and I was devastated and lost a lot of sleep

445
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 1: because I had to respect that UM. And we compromised

446
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: and he allowed me to to publish the Room Empty

447
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: without him in it, so he wasn't identified. Well. I

448
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 1: I feel like if if you can create a full

449
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: book of images and stories and it's there's like an

450
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: isolated thing you've you've are doing well. I feel like

451
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: your your family can not laugh at themselves but like

452
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 1: under risk act you in your art and your work,

453
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: but also trust in your hands that you you know,

454
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: are telling a story and doing it in like a

455
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: loving and beautiful objective way. UM. And they honestly, they

456
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: all look fabulous. I gotta say, like nobody dresses like

457
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 1: your family. It is I I read that your grandmother

458
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: dressed your grandfather and he never never said no to

459
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 1: a thing that she picked out for him. But like

460
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: the zebra prints, the like the colors, the open shirts,

461
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: it is just it is my my Florida fantasy is

462
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: really what it is. I know they really are my

463
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 1: style icons. We'll take a short break and be right

464
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: back with the photographer Julia Laub in just a moment,

465
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: what is your hope for the book when people get

466
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: it in their hands, like if it's gifted to them

467
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: or I mean, I think sort of the story about

468
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: the father and the son at your show feels like

469
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: a part of that. Well, I mean I think that.

470
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: And this was a teacher, one of my teachers in

471
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: photography school said, you know, because when I was making them, like,

472
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: how is anyone gonna like my family is so specific?

473
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: I don't want you know. I just kept questioning myself like,

474
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: what is the larger story here? And I feel like

475
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: there is a larger story, which is why I made

476
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 1: this book. It's not just about my family. And my

477
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: my teacher said, the more specific you get, the larger

478
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: the message. And I from the feedback that I've gotten,

479
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: which is um reassuring, is that there's kind of something

480
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: for everyone in there, because it's like we all come

481
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: from complicated families. Family by definition is complicated because there

482
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: are humans. It's made up of humans, so um, you know.

483
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: So people have said that there are things in there

484
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: that they think about but haven't said out loud, so

485
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 1: it made them feel kind of heard or seen or

486
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 1: less alone. Um, and that to me is like there's

487
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: nothing better than somebody kind of connecting to it in

488
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, that is I think. I mean to

489
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: be an artist and to have that sort of impact

490
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: that the work exists beyond you is is the greatest

491
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: gift I feel. Yeah, but real quick. I mean I

492
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: feel like this is a low hanging fruit question. But

493
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: I just got it. So you you real quick. For

494
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: anyone who's not familiar, Um, Julian has photographed people like

495
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: Dolly Parton and Mary J. Blige famously, UM and Annie

496
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: Leave of Its as recently as a few weeks ago.

497
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: I believe who has been Has there been anybody you

498
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: photographed or you felt like there was like an intimidation

499
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: factor so high that it made it a challenge for

500
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: you creatively. Um, well, I mean I'm nervous. I think

501
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: the second you're not nervous going into a shoot is

502
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: like that's a bad sign. So I think I'm always nervous. Um,

503
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: And that's that that kind of I think that helps you.

504
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: I think the Obama's I was very very nervous and

505
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: like I have to do I have to do them justice,

506
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: Like how I can't not do them justice. That's that's

507
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: always the worries, like I want to be able to

508
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: do justice, and that was most recently with Annie the Obama's.

509
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: It was hard because you had very little time. Um,

510
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: but photographing Annie, I mean, come on, she's like a

511
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: legend in I mean, she's a legend. So photographing her

512
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: was the most intimidating because there's no one that knows,

513
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: you know, it is more conscious about photography. And she

514
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: knew that, and I think she felt bad for me,

515
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: and she she sympathized with me, and so that's when

516
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: it was actually sweet and it felt more like a

517
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: laboration like that was what was so incredible with Annie

518
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: is like she she really just has above all else.

519
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: She has such a respect and takes the creative process

520
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: so seriously. So I think that she really um that

521
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: came across with our um our shoot, which I'll tell

522
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: you one one story is that she the picture that

523
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: that was used of her in front of her pond. Um.

524
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: I knew her pond was really really really important to

525
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: her in in rhine Back. And we spent the day

526
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: at her property in rhein Back and we get to

527
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: the pond and it's awful light, like just the worst light.

528
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: And I thought I was maybe going to have an

529
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: hour with Annie, but we had the whole day together

530
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: and this is the very last UM shot. And she said, oh,

531
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: let me show you what it looks like in the morning.

532
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: It's so gorgeous in the you know, right at sunrise.

533
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: So she shows me. Um, She's like, I'm not showing off.

534
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: I'm not showing off, but let me just show you

535
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: this picture, so gorgeous. And she shows me this like

536
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: beautiful picture of her iPhone and it was like this

537
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,959
Speaker 1: mystical you know, smoke like missed coming off of the

538
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: water and it was just gorgeous and it was like torture.

539
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: So I'm like, okay, I'll never be able to get

540
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: this because I can't top. Then she was like, okay,

541
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: do you want to come back in the morning, And

542
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: so she just she knew, I mean, it wasn't something

543
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: that was convenient for her because it was you know,

544
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: and I woke up. She she she allowed me to, um,

545
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: you know, come back at sunrise and make that picture

546
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: because she knew that that was gonna the light was

547
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: going to be perfect then. So it's like very much

548
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: like a talking shop thing. I think similarly like when

549
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 1: I there's like a cooking for people energy, where like people,

550
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: it's like cooking for somebody who's really good at cooking, right,

551
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: But it's actually great because there's like a trust and

552
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: and understand ending where you are actually you've sort of

553
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: fall into a rhythm. And I bet that also the

554
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: photos you took of her are so drastically different than

555
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: her style that I felt like, you know, I don't know,

556
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: there's probably some sort of like beautiful unspoken bond there

557
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: between forever. Yeah, I felt that way, which I'm really Yeah,

558
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: it was very special. But wait, I want to know

559
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: who is the most intimidating for you to cook for?

560
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I don't know the person who's most attimiating

561
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: for me to cook or cook for gosh, I don't

562
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: know anyone who's I guess I'm cooking for for the

563
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: first time, or like, who is who knows about me

564
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: in general? Because I feel like ultimate pressure and I

565
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: it's my worst nightmare to cook for somebody in real

566
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: life and have them be like this girl, You're like

567
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: this person's food like I had it in real life.

568
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: It wasn't not good, So For me, it is always

569
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: about like meeting expectations. And if the expectation is that

570
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: I'm a professional and you're like going over to somebody's

571
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: house for a potluck and you're like, someone's like, who

572
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: made the dip, it's not that good. I'm like, oh,

573
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: I made it. But I do this for a living.

574
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: It's sort of makes me feel like I sort of delegitimized,

575
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: unlike this podcast, where I'm like, I'm not a professional

576
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 1: podcast host, so if I am not a good interviewer,

577
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: I at least can fall back on my cooking. I

578
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: love it. I love it. Jillian. Thank you so so

579
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: much for joining me on my foray into podcast co hosting.

580
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: I love talking to you. Thank you again so much

581
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: to Jillian Laub. Her book is called Family Matters, and

582
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: her exhibit of the same name is that the I

583
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: c P in New York through January ten. We'll show

584
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: some of the photos Jillian and I talked about on

585
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: Katie's website Katie Kirk dot com. And that's it for

586
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,800
Speaker 1: me on this microphone and in your ears. But there's

587
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: plenty more of me to go around. You can subscribe

588
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: to my newsletter, find my cookbooks or home movies by

589
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 1: going to my website Alison E. Roman dot com. Thank

590
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: you so much for listening, and of course, thank you

591
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: so much for having me Katie. Wasn't she great? Everyone?

592
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: By the way, Her newsletter and home movies are must

593
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: whether you're knee deep in the holidays or you're just

594
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: looking for something delicious to make on your own. So

595
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: go find her if you haven't already. And next week,

596
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: while I'm getting ready to release all the highlights from

597
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 1: my Whirlwind book tour, my good friend Brian Goldsmith is

598
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: taking over the pod. He's a political consultant, recovering journalists

599
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: and my former podcasting co host. He's going to be

600
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: looking into his crystal ball and it's very clear. People

601
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,959
Speaker 1: to tell us what the future holds in politics. It's

602
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: everything you'll need to know next Thursday on Next Question.

603
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of My

604
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: Heart Media and Katie Couric Media. The executive producers Army

605
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 1: Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen.

606
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: Associate producers Derek Clements, Adriana Fassi, and Emily Pinto. The

607
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more

608
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: information about today's episode, or to sign up for my

609
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie correct dot com.

610
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 1: You can also find me at Katie Currect, on Instagram

611
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: and on my social media channels. For more podcasts from

612
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

613
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,