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Speaker 1: What is Up?

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Speaker 2: Mets fans, Welcome back to another episode of the Mets

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Speaker 2: Up Podcast. For those of you listening again, I employ

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Speaker 2: you to go over to YouTube check out the video

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Speaker 2: version on the Mets Up Podcast. We were joined by

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Speaker 2: very special guests today, Zach Scott, former GM of the

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Speaker 2: New York Mets. You've seen him on S and Y,

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Speaker 2: You've seen him on Twitter. He's talking baseball all over

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Speaker 2: the place. Zach, appreciate you for joining us.

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Speaker 1: How you been I'm good. Thanks for having me, guys

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Speaker 1: appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: Zach. We want to start with the twenty twenty five

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Speaker 3: Mets because there's a lot of fanfare hooplog going on

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Speaker 3: right now. This team is spring training dealing with some

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Speaker 3: injuries early on. What's the feeling like for the executive

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Speaker 3: when you see some guys start to go down in

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Speaker 3: the spring. What's the level of urgency where what's going

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Speaker 3: through your mind at that point?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's always I mean, that's the pain of spring training,

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Speaker 1: right Like, you're playing games that don't count, but you

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Speaker 1: know it's necessary to get your guys ready to go,

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Speaker 1: especially your pitchers, and you're just hoping to get to

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Speaker 1: the start of the season healthy. But you know you're

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Speaker 1: not going to, so you're trying to be rational about

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Speaker 1: it and not reactionary and not emotional when guys do

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Speaker 1: get hurt and you find out they're going to miss

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Speaker 1: a significant chunk of time, So you're trying to balance that.

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Speaker 1: But you know, you always have to remind yourself that

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Speaker 1: it's not about having the perfect roster on opening day.

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Speaker 1: There's going to be a lot of ups and downs,

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Speaker 1: a lot of injuries throughout the season, and you're just

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Speaker 1: managing some at the beginning and there'll be different ones

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Speaker 1: later when those guys come back, So you just try

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Speaker 1: to keep a level head.

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Speaker 2: I know David Seerns is kind of, you know, kept

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Speaker 2: that same sentiment too. He said it last year that

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Speaker 2: our bullpen opening day is not going to be what

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Speaker 2: it looks like towards the end of the season. From

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Speaker 2: a front office perspective, how many guys do you really

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Speaker 2: expect or are you looking at that can be a

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Speaker 2: part of the pitching rotation over a season, because we

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Speaker 2: know it's not just the major league level and it's

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Speaker 2: not even just the forty man roster.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to plan to be as deep as

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Speaker 1: you possibly can. That's why. I actually really like what

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Speaker 1: they've done with especially well with the starters, but the

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Speaker 1: bullpen as well. I mean, it's been a focus on depth,

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Speaker 1: and I think they have a lot of good arms.

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Speaker 1: You know, you want to have roster flexibility. They maybe

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Speaker 1: don't have as a ton of that, but you just

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Speaker 1: want to have as many arms as you can because

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Speaker 1: it's going to take so many to get through the season.

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Speaker 1: There's no one particular number, but you know, that's really

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Speaker 1: the goal is to build your roster for the one

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Speaker 1: sixty two and don't be focused on having a perfect

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Speaker 1: roster on day one.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned liking what Davis Sern has been doing right now,

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Speaker 3: we're very encouraged by the year plus he's been here.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the team, what's the NLCS in the first year.

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Speaker 3: He's found plenty of diamonds in the rough already, which

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Speaker 3: was kind of one of his trademarks with the Brewers.

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Speaker 3: When you look around Major League Baseball from your own

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Speaker 3: experience working different front offices, what are some of the

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Speaker 3: symptoms of a good front office versus a bad front office?

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Speaker 1: It's a good question. I mean, I think the key

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Speaker 1: to being successful in that role as a GM and

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Speaker 1: as a baseball operation is to find that right balance

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Speaker 1: between the short term and the long term because you

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Speaker 1: really have to do what's best for the organization, and

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Speaker 1: everyone wants to have a sustainable winner, so that's a

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Speaker 1: long term goal, right to win all the time or

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Speaker 1: as much as you can. At the same time, you

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Speaker 1: have to be focused on this year's roster, and so

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Speaker 1: you know, finding that balance is really difficult, and I

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Speaker 1: think you see some teams be really good focusing on

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Speaker 1: the big picture long term and maybe are a little

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Speaker 1: passive in the short term, so I think, and then

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Speaker 1: there's other teams that kind of push their chips all

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Speaker 1: in the middle for the short term, which can have

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Speaker 1: some serious consequences for the long term. So I think

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Speaker 1: that's the if I had to say one key thing

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Speaker 1: that's really the challenge is finding the balance. But there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of reasons why organizations are successful or not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think the teams that are constantly trying

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Speaker 1: to innovate, always trying to get better. If you're even

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Speaker 1: if you're good and you're just staying in the same

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Speaker 1: place and not trying to get better, you're getting worse

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Speaker 1: because everyone around you, especially in baseball compared to other sports.

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Speaker 1: Is always trying to find that competitive edge. And then

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Speaker 1: and then leadership just having people on your team, on

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Speaker 1: your staff, motivated and aligned to do what's best for

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Speaker 1: the organization.

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Speaker 2: You were there towards the start of the Steve Cohen era,

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Speaker 2: as as Mets fans call it. What were some of

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Speaker 2: the things that you felt like he was doing with

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Speaker 2: the organization to push this team in the right direction,

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Speaker 2: besides spending a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was really there very early for Steve, so

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Speaker 1: you know, year one as an owner, I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what kind of owner he's going

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Speaker 1: to be. So we took a different approach that year

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Speaker 1: in terms of spending. We actually stayed under the luxury tax,

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Speaker 1: which was, you know, something that we planned on doing

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Speaker 1: unless there was an opportunity that that would lead to

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Speaker 1: an exception to go over. So it was a slightly

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Speaker 1: different approach to the approach that he's had since. But

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of what Steve was doing was

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Speaker 1: just trying to feel his way through it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's not a normal thing to be an owner of

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Speaker 1: a sports team, so when you're doing it for the

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Speaker 1: first time, you know, yeah, I think he tweets a

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Speaker 1: lot less than he did that year. There's I think

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Speaker 1: that times, you know, he wanted to kind of show

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Speaker 1: some tough love and maybe call out the team a

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Speaker 1: little bit publicly, and I don't see that as much anymore. So.

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Speaker 1: I think he was really trying to feel out who

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Speaker 1: he was going to be as an owner.

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Speaker 3: The big move that happened that offseason with the Mets was,

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Speaker 3: of course, acquiring Francisco Lindor signing the big contract in

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Speaker 3: the precipice of the season. Then the season begins and

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Speaker 3: he's very clearly going through some struggle struggles that he

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Speaker 3: basically had never gone through his major league baseball player before.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure that there was no panic internally, but what

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Speaker 3: were those feelings like inside the building of like, what's

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Speaker 3: going on here? Is he comfortable? When's he going to

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Speaker 3: turn it on and get it going well?

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Speaker 1: You know? And I worked with Bill James at the

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Speaker 1: Red Sox years ago. He used to always refer to

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Speaker 1: this thing that he called the transition tax when you

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Speaker 1: sign a big contract and go to a new team,

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Speaker 1: especially in a market like Boston or New York, and

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Speaker 1: in Francisco's case, coming from a market like Cleveland, which

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Speaker 1: is very different, and so the expectations rise, and expectations

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Speaker 1: can be very challenging. So it didn't surprise me that

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Speaker 1: he struggled. I think that was to be expected to

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Speaker 1: some degree, whether it was on the field or kind

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Speaker 1: of in a new media market or a new spotlight

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Speaker 1: on him that wasn't the same as before. You know, I,

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Speaker 1: in general, I'm pretty even keeled person, so I wasn't

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Speaker 1: panicking about it. But obviously, you know, he wasn't feeling

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Speaker 1: great about it. He felt a responsibility to the organization

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Speaker 1: and to the fans to perform at a higher level.

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Speaker 1: And I'm very happy to see that he's adjusted so

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Speaker 1: well and is now a leader on that team and

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Speaker 1: has performed extremely well.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Mets fans are super happy with that as well.

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Speaker 2: The team looks really great. You talked about being very

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Speaker 2: even keeled. If you know anything about Mets fans, which

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you do, we're not an even killed fan base.

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Speaker 2: We love to be very reactionary. We love to wear

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Speaker 2: a heart on our sleep. Does the front I don't

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Speaker 2: want to say, does the front office listen to the fans,

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Speaker 2: because I don't think that's the right question. But does

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Speaker 2: the front office see how insane the fan base guests?

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Speaker 2: Does the fan base input have any sort of maybe

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Speaker 2: added pressure for the front office to succeed.

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Speaker 3: Does the field you guys feel the fans emotion? I

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Speaker 3: think it's the way I phrase it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean you're at the ballpark, right, So in

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Speaker 1: the year that I was there, there's you know, fans

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Speaker 1: are getting on some guys that were underperforming, and so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're aware of it. You can't you can't avoid not knowing,

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Speaker 1: but you try to tune it out because what you

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Speaker 1: don't want to have happen is that to influence decisions

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Speaker 1: you may make. But it's hard. It's hard for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in the organization. Like I said before,

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Speaker 1: Steve is a new owner, so that's a new thing,

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Speaker 1: right is is you know, you buy a team and

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Speaker 1: you want to make fans happy, and if you're not

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Speaker 1: performing well, they're not going to be happy, and that's understandable.

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Speaker 1: But when things are going well, they're going to be

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Speaker 1: great and they're gonna be really supportive, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: there's trade offs with everything, but yeah, you can't get emotional.

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Speaker 1: I stayed off of social media when I was in

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Speaker 1: that role. I will say, you know, Steve was very active,

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Speaker 1: and I was aware of his activity, and I think

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Speaker 1: at one point he was actually asking for like ideas,

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Speaker 1: trade ideas, things like that. I actually read through some

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Speaker 1: of them just to say that, hey, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to pretend that you know good ideas, I'm the only

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Speaker 1: one that might have a good idea or people that

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Speaker 1: work there. I mean, good ideas can come from anywhere,

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Speaker 1: so you know, I didn't necessarily see any that were

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Speaker 1: too great or worth pursuing, but I was open minded

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Speaker 1: to say, hey, if the you know, usually Rabbit fan

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Speaker 1: bases have very smart fans as well, so you know,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to see that. But yeah, I was used

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Speaker 1: to that from Boston. I felt like the New York

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Speaker 1: fan base was a little different. I kind of expected

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Speaker 1: them to be more like pre two thousand and four

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Speaker 1: Red Sox fans, which I was one of growing up

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Speaker 1: in Boston and kind of this woe was me waiting

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Speaker 1: for the other shoe to drop kind of type of mentality,

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Speaker 1: and I felt like they were like that, but they

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Speaker 1: were also like more angry about it. That's just New York, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It was like a combo somewhere between like Boston, pri

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Speaker 1: four and Philly where it was just like this angst

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Speaker 1: about it, and so it's fine. I'm I just loved

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Speaker 1: when people are passionate about the game. I'm passionate about

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Speaker 1: the game, so so I'm all for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: New York is just moving a million miles an hour

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Speaker 3: all the time. You're in traffic, you're at work, you're

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Speaker 3: going home and traffic, you're cooking dinner. Now the Mets,

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Speaker 3: Ron's like, let's relax and watch the Mets. Never you

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Speaker 3: can't really tone down that quickly. But two players and

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Speaker 3: this Mets team had very different times this winter going

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Speaker 3: through their contract negotiation process. The first was one so Though,

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Speaker 3: and the second was Pete Alonso. Now they're both on

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Speaker 3: the Mets now. Really good to have both these guys

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Speaker 3: in the lineup.

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Speaker 1: But was there.

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Speaker 3: Anything that surprised you specifically about how the contracts wound

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Speaker 3: up coming out for either of those two players.

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Speaker 1: I really know, I kind of you know, and I

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Speaker 1: talked about this on sn Y at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the off season. I always felt like Soto. I always

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Speaker 1: thought he'd end up with the Mets because I felt

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Speaker 1: like he'd go to the highest bidder, and they'd be

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Speaker 1: the highest bidder. And I know there's some recent reports

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Speaker 1: maybe suggesting that they weren't. Whatever that aside, I felt

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Speaker 1: like that they had a great chance to do that.

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Speaker 1: The number itself was definitely higher than I expected in

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Speaker 1: terms of present value. I expected it to get in

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Speaker 1: the seven hundreds, but I expected the would be heavy deferral,

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Speaker 1: so it would be more of a present value, you know,

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Speaker 1: higher than Otani's present value of what four sixty eight,

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Speaker 1: but not seven sixty five. So that surprised me. The

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Speaker 1: magnitude of that, when you know, for him to get

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Speaker 1: almost three hundred million dollars more than the present value

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Speaker 1: of Otani, you know, seemed to kind of get away

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Speaker 1: from what maybe made sense logically, but that happens in auctions.

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Speaker 1: And then with Pete, I did feel like he was

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Speaker 1: the most likely free agent to overplay his hands. I

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Speaker 1: just think the market for his position, with his skill set,

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Speaker 1: at his starting age of this of a new contract,

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Speaker 1: I don't think he was going to get what likely

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Speaker 1: was a very high expectation when you switch agents, and

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Speaker 1: obviously he went to Scott Bores, but when you change agents,

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Speaker 1: oftentimes you're doing that because the agent has set expectations

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Speaker 1: that you can get a better deal than maybe the

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Speaker 1: one he turned down. If he turned down a deal

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Speaker 1: that was a pretty good one, pretty good offer from

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Speaker 1: the Mets before and then switches agents to me, that's

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Speaker 1: sending a message that he thinks he should get even more.

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Speaker 1: And I thought that was a very high risk strategy

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Speaker 1: for him. So it didn't surprise me that he was

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Speaker 1: hanging around really late. And ultimately I think the deal

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Speaker 1: made sense that he, you know, probably had to come

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Speaker 1: down from expectations or they had to manage expectations down

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Speaker 1: for him to take it. But I think it made

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Speaker 1: sense for the Mets and and you know, for the

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Speaker 1: short term for the player.

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Speaker 4: Ft FAM, I hope you have as much confidence as

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Speaker 4: Penelope right now, who is an avid Spot and Tango fan, Okay,

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Speaker 4: And she uses the code foul crats because this is

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Speaker 4: a personalized dog food subscription service that prevents you, of

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Speaker 4: and she just gets the highest quality unkibble that is

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Speaker 4: what they're known for. And I know you love the

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Speaker 4: quiz part of it too.

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Speaker 5: It's a super quick quiz, but it lets You give

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Speaker 5: them the information and they tailor it to what is

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Speaker 5: needed based on their age, size, activity level. All things

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Speaker 5: that are customed for each and every one of your dogs.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, human great ingredients in that unkibble, USDA meat, fruits

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Speaker 4: and veggies that are approved. There no artificial stuff, no preservatives.

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Speaker 4: They've got the exclusive deal for the ft fan for

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Speaker 4: unlimited time. Go to spotan tango dot com slash foul

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Speaker 4: use code foul to get fifty percent off your first order.

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Speaker 4: That's spotan tango dot com slash foul. It's spotan tango

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Speaker 4: dot com slat foul quote foul.

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Speaker 2: A player like Wan Soto's contract, it seems like it's

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Speaker 2: almost impossible for to be ever worth it. But he's

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Speaker 2: such a unique player and so young and so good.

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Speaker 2: How do you truly value a player like Wan Soda?

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Speaker 2: Because I think we all know fifty million dollars a

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Speaker 2: year when he's forty years old is going to look

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Speaker 2: absolutely insane. But like is do you not care about

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Speaker 2: that right now? Because you're getting one of the best

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Speaker 2: players in baseball and during his prime.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you're a GM you always

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Speaker 1: care about that because, like I said before, you're trying

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Speaker 1: to manage the balance between the short term and long term. Now,

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Speaker 1: crystal balling fifteen years down the road is really hard.

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Speaker 1: You know how many collective bargaining agreements. What will we

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Speaker 1: have gone through by then? You know, like what's the

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Speaker 1: landscape going to look like? And that's one of the

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Speaker 1: challenges about making these decisions on contracts like that is,

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Speaker 1: you know, luxury tax rules can change. There could be

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Speaker 1: a lot of differences. You know, the economy of baseball

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Speaker 1: could change. You know, there's a lot of things up

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Speaker 1: in the air with TV deals and all that. So

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Speaker 1: you don't know what the landscape's going to look like

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Speaker 1: that far down the road. So I wouldn't say though

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Speaker 1: you don't care, You're just you know, you sometimes can't

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Speaker 1: get too focused on it because it's hard to predict

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Speaker 1: beyond three years, little in fifteen years. So you know,

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Speaker 1: you just want to try to manage that risk as

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Speaker 1: best you can. And I think when you take on

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Speaker 1: that risk, and I've heard quotes from David Stern and

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Speaker 1: since signing it is it makes it really hard to

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Speaker 1: then add another guy like that, because you're just compounding

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Speaker 1: risk and making you know, financial flexibility or lack thereof

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Speaker 1: is really how big market teams can fall apart. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I say that from experience before the Dodgers

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Speaker 1: bailed us out in twenty twelve, from Crawford and Gonzales,

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Speaker 1: we were looking at a really tough situation where we

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Speaker 1: were like, what did we do? We get these long

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Speaker 1: term contracts, limited flexibility. You know, we better be pumping

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Speaker 1: out young talent that's cheap and controllable. And then the

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Speaker 1: Dodgers just bailed us out and kind of reset for us,

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Speaker 1: which was which was huge, and so that's not you

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Speaker 1: can't depend on something like that happening. So you've got

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Speaker 1: to be really careful because you've seen it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think the Mets under like I think Phillips was

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Speaker 1: probably the GM, they had similar issues with some financial

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Speaker 1: things that just paralyzed them. It paralyzed them for a while.

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Speaker 1: The Cubs and that I want to say the Jim

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Speaker 1: Henry years, and I'm not saying is to pick on

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Speaker 1: them and just reference it same thing where you know,

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Speaker 1: they spent a lot and didn't work out and then

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Speaker 1: it was like, okay, now we are kind of paralyzed

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Speaker 1: because we don't have that flexibility. We got to wait

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Speaker 1: these things out, so it's hard, but you also manage

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Speaker 1: risk by infusing young talent, and that's how you balance it.

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Speaker 1: You look at your roster as you know, I hate

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Speaker 1: talking about players like their assets, but you look at

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Speaker 1: it like a portfolio that you're trying to manage and

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Speaker 1: you have you know, the reason in Boston we felt

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Speaker 1: like we could sign David Price to a high risk

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Speaker 1: contract that you know, in a vacuum, was a bad contract,

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Speaker 1: but he helped us win a World Series, so kind

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Speaker 1: of take that with them. You'll take that. But the

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Speaker 1: reason we felt like we could take that risk is

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Speaker 1: because we had such a good young core Mookie Bets

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Speaker 1: and been in Tendee, Jackie Bradley, Rafie Devers, guys that

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Speaker 1: were going to be producing a lot more than they

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Speaker 1: were going to be getting paid, and so you could

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Speaker 1: kind of balance that. I think a team like the Mets,

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Speaker 1: like they're going to have to do the same thing

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Speaker 1: and like a Vento's more Vento's types right that are

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Speaker 1: gonna be producing well over what they're earning.

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Speaker 3: Piggybacking on this, when you're making these kinds of decisions

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Speaker 3: in front office, what's the spread or what's the ratio

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Speaker 3: of how much you're looking internally, like you're talking about

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Speaker 3: the pieces you have, how much risk you can take on,

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Speaker 3: versus how much you're looking externally at the teams you're

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Speaker 3: competing with. Because this Mets team, while they probably do

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Speaker 3: want to mitigate risk and not put on another monster

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Speaker 3: contract the next few years, whether it be of Vlad

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Speaker 3: Greyer Junior or someone else along with Lindor and so though,

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Speaker 3: you have to look at the Dodgers and be like,

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Speaker 3: this is our direct competition for a championship, and they're

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Speaker 3: paying Otani, they're paying Bets, they're paying down Modo. They

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Speaker 3: had three of those monster contracts on the team. And

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Speaker 3: that's before a very long term deal for a catcher

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Speaker 3: and Will Smith and a high av deal in a

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Speaker 3: third basement, A first baseman, Freddie Freeman is still the

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Speaker 3: top of his game, but beginning to break down a

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Speaker 3: little bit. Someone's gonna have load management this year. So

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Speaker 3: where's I guess the way I said the beginning, how

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Speaker 3: much you're looking internally versus the risk you have to

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Speaker 3: mitigate versus externally, how can we be better than Team A,

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Speaker 3: B and C.

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Speaker 1: You try not to focus on what other teams are

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Speaker 1: doing because you can't control it. Right, So, just like

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Speaker 1: we always tell our players, focus on what you can control,

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Speaker 1: you do the same thing when you're building a team.

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Speaker 1: But you have to be aware of it. You want

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Speaker 1: to know where you're you know where you put your

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Speaker 1: odds of making the playoffs and having success are. Obviously

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Speaker 1: you care about where you are and your expected win curve.

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Speaker 1: Right If you're a team that's not expected to compete,

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Speaker 1: then why would you spend a ton of money to

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Speaker 1: go from you know, seventy wins to seventy five wins

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Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. So you have to be

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Speaker 1: aware of it to some extent. You have to have

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Speaker 1: a realistic view on where who you are, be realistic

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Speaker 1: on your expectations for who your team is and where

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Speaker 1: does that fit in the context of your division. So

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Speaker 1: you have to have some awareness. But you can't get

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Speaker 1: caught up in an arms race. And I say that

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Speaker 1: as someone that was in Boston where we sometimes did

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Speaker 1: get caught up in that arms race with the Yankees.

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Speaker 1: But it's really hard and it's dangerous. You can do

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Speaker 1: it when you have resources, but you got to just

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Speaker 1: be careful and you know, you gotta you gotta the risks.

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Speaker 1: Everything you do is a risk, So going with young

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Speaker 1: players that's a risk. It may not cost you financially,

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Speaker 1: and some teams, I think today, some leaders feel very

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Speaker 1: safe going young because if they fail, they don't create

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Speaker 1: that flexibility problem. You can pivot more easily. They have options,

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Speaker 1: it can be options, so you can actually maneuver around

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Speaker 1: it more easily. But it's a risk that they're not

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Speaker 1: that good and therefore your team's not that good. So

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Speaker 1: everything you do, every decision that you make in those

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Speaker 1: roles is a risk.

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Speaker 2: Has team building changed because of the expanded playoff era?

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Speaker 2: Are teams a little more comfortable, you feel like, because

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Speaker 2: you know, you don't have to be the best in

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Speaker 2: your division necessarily to make the playoffs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I found even before the playoff format changed, I

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Speaker 1: found it felt like the industry was becoming more risk

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Speaker 1: averse and in the you know, a showing the big

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Speaker 1: spens and obviously not everyone has resources. So there's certain

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Speaker 1: teams like, you know, like Tampa Bay is not going

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Speaker 1: to be spending big money. They're doing a great job

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Speaker 1: with the constraints that they have. But it just felt

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Speaker 1: like there were more and more teams saying, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: playing it a little safer financially, and then I think

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Speaker 1: when you did change the playoff format, that made that

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Speaker 1: even more of an incentive to not push all your

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Speaker 1: chips in the middle, which again that can be a

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Speaker 1: bad strategy. I'm not saying it's a bad thing that

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Speaker 1: they're being a little safer, but I do think there

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Speaker 1: are opportunities for teams like the Mets and other There's

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Speaker 1: there's gms, you know, known for being aggressive. I worked

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Speaker 1: for one with Dave Dombrowski, consulted with Chris Young. He's

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Speaker 1: an aggressive guy. And there's certain guys a j preler

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Speaker 1: Is are aggressive. There's certain guys that are aggressive that

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Speaker 1: can kind of take advantage of the fact that maybe

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Speaker 1: some other teams are playing it really safe.

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Speaker 3: There was a very aggressive trade that you did make

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Speaker 3: when you were at the Helm with the Mets, and

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Speaker 3: that was the famous trade deadline, the Hobby Buias movement mark.

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Speaker 3: And I remember that one pretty finally because we were

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Speaker 3: about to head to the ballpark. It was a Friday,

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Speaker 3: I believe, afternoon, and we were live streaming the trade deadline,

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Speaker 3: and our listeners will still sometimes go back and take

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Speaker 3: this screen grab of our jaws dropping and rise bucking

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Speaker 3: out of our head when we saw the hobby biased

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Speaker 3: p crow Armstrong. Looking back, what kind of made that

434
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 3: trade happen, how they get to that point, and where

435
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,399
Speaker 3: was the thought process in the moment of pushing chips

436
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,639
Speaker 3: in and bargaining the future for the president.

437
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 1: Wellether, You know, you have a lot of conversations. I

438
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 1: think one of the things, and I spoke about this

439
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,880
Speaker 1: publicly at the time, one of the challenges in that

440
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 1: moment in time was the perception by the industry of

441
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 1: the METS farm system. It was viewed as having a

442
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 1: couple really good prospects at the top and then a

443
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,879
Speaker 1: significant drop off, which I don't necessarily think was true,

444
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 1: but that was how teams communicated to me. That's how

445
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,239
Speaker 1: they viewed it. And you know, I felt like it

446
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 1: didn't have that middle tier prospect where those are the

447
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,360
Speaker 1: players that you want to deal from when you're making

448
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 1: trades at the deadline. So, you know, I looked at

449
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 1: Pete grow Armstrong as someone that was in our top

450
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 1: five to seven prospects, which I thought was a below

451
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,120
Speaker 1: average farm system. So in some teams that might be

452
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: like closer to ten In hindsight, that's low because he

453
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,159
Speaker 1: ended up taking off after the trade and becoming like

454
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: the twelfth I don't even I don't think he was

455
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,880
Speaker 1: a top one hundred prospect at that and twenty one,

456
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,440
Speaker 1: but then he's like twelfth overall or something. A prospects

457
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 1: so good for him. I liked Pete a lot. I

458
00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 1: loved the defense, love the makeup. The question was the bat,

459
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: and you know, I definitely was biased by coming over

460
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,000
Speaker 1: from Boston. We weren't high on him in the draft,

461
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 1: and so I thought there was a lot of fourth

462
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,439
Speaker 1: outfield or risk. And I think some of the people internally,

463
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,919
Speaker 1: even though they drafted him and obviously him highly if

464
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,640
Speaker 1: they used the first round pick on him, felt similarly

465
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: like there is a risk that he doesn't hit, and

466
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: that he you know, he's going to have great defense.

467
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: There was no doubt about that. So he might be

468
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 1: able to carry if he doesn't hit, he still might

469
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 1: be able to be in every day because the defense

470
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 1: is so elite and the pace runnings elite. But I

471
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 1: think there was risk, so you know, that was more

472
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 1: than I think typically i'd want to deal in a

473
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 1: trade like that, But at the time I felt like

474
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 1: it was the best we could do given our circumstances,

475
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 1: which were, you know, we were in first place. I

476
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 1: believe that day starting to fade a little bit in

477
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: a division that wasn't performing well. You know, the Braves

478
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 1: ended up taking off and becoming the Braves that we know.

479
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: But you know, we had an opportunity, and I do

480
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: I am a big believer that when you have an

481
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: opportunity to make the postseason that you make the most

482
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 1: of it, especially when you have a player like Jake

483
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: de Gram who could kind of help carry you through postseason. Now,

484
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 1: that was one of the challenges was we're making that

485
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: trade and Jake. You know, we get a very unclear

486
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 1: health picture on Jake that same day, you know, really

487
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: that same time, which makes it really challenging. But it

488
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: was you know, we had a bunch of those with

489
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: Jake that year before that, and so to me, it

490
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: was unclear and we didn't really know like how serious

491
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,239
Speaker 1: it is, because sometimes other things seemed serious and then

492
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: they weren't. So it was one of those years where

493
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 1: it just was unclear what was going on with him. So,

494
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's obvious to say in hindsight

495
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 1: that that was an overpay. I felt like a time

496
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: it was an overpay because it's a rental and and yes,

497
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 1: we got Williams back, and he's actually very good for

498
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,439
Speaker 1: two years or year and a half for the Mets.

499
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: But you'll never do a rental deal unless it's just

500
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: for like fringy guys that you're you know, like the

501
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: rich Hill deal we did. That's a rental deal with

502
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 1: like a fringey prospect, but that's it's a different level

503
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: of player, right Like, we got really a player who

504
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 1: was very good for us in Baias and was a

505
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: good fit for what we're looking for.

506
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 2: But something that ball I ever played was there.

507
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: It was, Yeah, it was during that time, but yeah,

508
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 1: no I look at it. It was an overpaid at

509
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: the time. It ended up being a bigger overpay when

510
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: Pete took a huge step forward as a player, which

511
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: is good for him and good for Cubs PD. But uh,

512
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: you know, the circumstances were it was very clear we

513
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: weren't just trading for rich Hill at the deadline, we

514
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: were going to do something more significant.

515
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 2: How like close to the deadline did that deal actually happen?

516
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: Because again, for us on the outside, it's like that

517
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 2: came in as a buzzer beater deal towards the end,

518
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,439
Speaker 2: right as it was ending. Was that something that I

519
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: had been done for a while before the actual deadline?

520
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's really hard to pull off any

521
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 1: deal without really having an agreement, like an hour before

522
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 1: the deadline at least, because you've got to go through

523
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: medical reviews and there's just other you know, to get

524
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: in touch of play. There's just a lot of administrative

525
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: stuff that has to happen, So it's really hard to

526
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: pull off a deal last minute. It used to be

527
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: easier when I first started, Like we traded Nomar Garcia

528
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 1: Parer with like a minute left at the deadline and

529
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: a four team trade, which is insane.

530
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 5: Trade, but.

531
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 1: It's a lot. It was harder. There was more kind

532
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: of red tape you had a deal with, So it

533
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 1: was probably about an hour before, but I wanted to

534
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: wait as long as possible, especially when we started having

535
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: conversations about Jake. I want to make sure I knew

536
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: it was what the deal was. We were actually talking

537
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: about a much larger deal with the Cups that involved

538
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: several players coming from there to US and US sending

539
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: multi more players, and you know, it was complicated, but

540
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: that was something that I think could have made a

541
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,920
Speaker 1: bigger impact on the team. And then it was kind

542
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 1: of like, well, you know, that would have been even

543
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 1: bigger risk in some ways, it would have been pushing

544
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: more chips in the middle, So we decided to take

545
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: this approach instead.

546
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 3: Can you speak on the parameters of what that larger

547
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 3: trade could have been now looking back.

548
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: I'll talk about some of it, just because you know,

549
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: there's some players. There's at least one player still with

550
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,879
Speaker 1: the Mets, so I'd rather not sure put him in

551
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: a weird spot or the organization. But yeah, I mean

552
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: Contraras was coming to us in that deal, McCann and

553
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 1: some cash was going to them. Dom Smith was involved

554
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: going over there, Craig Kimber was involved coming out. I mean,

555
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: it was just and then obviously Baiez I was trying

556
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: to actually get Bryant involved as well, but they had

557
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: a separate deal that they liked better anyway with him,

558
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: and I think that he went to a place that

559
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: was a better fit for him than New York anyway.

560
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: But yeah, we were talking about something that was kind

561
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: of a one stop shop type trade, and you know,

562
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: obviously there would have been more coming from us prospect wise,

563
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: but I just don't want to. Yeah, that's divulge those names.

564
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: No, that's why we're obviously more interested in the guys

565
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 2: who could have been coming here, because one of the

566
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 2: things I want to know is like, what was maybe

567
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: like a crazy trade that didn't happen, that was coming

568
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: players coming to the Mets. I don't care who was leaving.

569
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's that's probably the biggest one. I

570
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: remember in the off season. I don't remember if this

571
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: was before I think it was before we signed Ty Walker.

572
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: I was talking to the Brewers about Corbyn Burns and

573
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: you know, that was the first year he was going

574
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: to be a starter, like full time starter, and obviously

575
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 1: he goes on a wins a scion. But it was

576
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 1: a conversation that you know, it wasn't with David Sterns.

577
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: It was with Matt Arnold and I couldn't get a read.

578
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't like a quick no. It was

579
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: something that you know, they thought about, we talked about.

580
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 1: Obviously nothing happened, but I remember thinking, you know, it's

581
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: funny because not everyone in our on our side was

582
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: like gung ho about it because he hadn't proven himself

583
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: as a starter yet, right, And that to me was

584
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: why you might be able to get him, right, is

585
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: that you're you're taking a little bit of a risk

586
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: that he's going to be able to handle a workload

587
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: and things like that. So so that obviously would have

588
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: been great because that wins the signing. But you know,

589
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: I have no idea if that was something that they

590
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: were like laughing at internally or what, but that would

591
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: have been kind of interesting.

592
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: It would be good.

593
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: Would you say smaller things that almost happened that probably

594
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 1: aren't as exciting to your audience.

595
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 3: When you say you couldn't getther read on Matt Arnold

596
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 3: Just this might be a little bit of a silly question,

597
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 3: but how does an actual trade talk begin? Are you

598
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 3: sending a text? Are you giving a call? Is it

599
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: an email? Does it depend on your familiarity with the

600
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 3: other executive? What's the actual operational process of beginning these conversations?

601
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: Well, that year was especially odd because we went through

602
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: three different point people on our end, right, so you know,

603
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: Sandy was running point you think of take the Lindor trade,

604
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: like Sandy's first talking to Cleveland and then Jared comes

605
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: on as GM, and then he still lets Sandy run point,

606
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: but like the conversation flowed through Jared as running point

607
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: as the GM, and then he's gone and then I'm

608
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: I'm in that seat. So you know, I was Typically

609
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 1: what you do is you divvy up the teams between people,

610
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: and so it's like, okay, you know, Zach, you're going

611
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: to handle these ten teams to reach out and check

612
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: in with them. And then obviously as things, if things evolved,

613
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: then other people may get involved. So I had been

614
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: doing that as an assistant GM, and then I switch

615
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: over to the acting GM seat and so now it's like, okay,

616
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 1: well I'm not going to just alve sudden. Well now

617
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to just the gms, like the

618
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: Big League, the assistant GM. So I kept talking to

619
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: the same people with with that one or in general,

620
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: it's typically text these days, sometimes it's a call. It depends.

621
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I always lead with the text because you know,

622
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: if I'm even if it's to set up a call

623
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: and it's like, hey, you know, we'd love to kind

624
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: of chat about what what you guys are looking to do.

625
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: As you get closer to the deadline, there's kind of

626
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: this thing where every team checks in with each other

627
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: just to get a sense of where they're at, and

628
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 1: you might learn something from that in terms of what

629
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: they see their needs as and whether you have a

630
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: fit for that, or whether they ask specifically about a

631
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: player on your team, and the other way where you

632
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: may say like, hey, would you ever talk about this guy?

633
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: Or you know, this is what we're looking for? Do

634
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: you have any any players that fit that that you'd

635
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: be willing to talk about? Those are kind of the

636
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: first conversations and then you go from there. So in

637
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: a case like that that we had a player that

638
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: they were interested in and you know, so became a

639
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: conversation about you know, what kind of value we would

640
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: need to be talking about to be able to move

641
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: a player like that.

642
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: So like just again this might sound crazy, but like

643
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: you just be like, hey, like what's the deal with

644
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 2: Corden Burns? Like are you guys like looking to move him?

645
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: Is that how like casual it is or is it more?

646
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: Sometimes for me it was so I think I've worked

647
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: for different gms have different approaches. I tended to be

648
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: very quick to reach out to people to I wanted

649
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: to have as much information about the market as possible,

650
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: so I would reach out all the time. People are

651
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: like a crazy you know, some people don't like to

652
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: brainstorm with you, so like you get like, hey, how

653
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: do you feel about this? Like if I you know,

654
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: are you cool to just kind of like shooting ideas?

655
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: And some people are like, yeah, shoot me any idea,

656
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: even if it seems crazy. And I definitely like shot

657
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 1: off a few techs that were just kind of like

658
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: taking a temperature and someone were back like, are you serious.

659
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: I'm like no, I was totally kidding, But you know,

660
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: why not. You can't get a player if you don't

661
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 1: ask about him. Sometimes and there's players that have been moved,

662
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: you know. I'll say, when Oakland traded Josh Donaldson and

663
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: when the Marlins traded Miguel Cabrera, like really good players

664
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: that move that my team didn't explore because either the

665
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, in the Cabrera case, the Marlins were probably

666
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: just focusing on who had the prospects that they really

667
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: wanted in order to pull the trigger in a trade

668
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: like that. In Donaldson's case, actually they told us he

669
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: wasn't going to be traded and then he was trained.

670
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: So you can't. I always view I learned from those

671
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: experiences and others that you have to be involved, you

672
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: have to get yourself in the mix as much as possible,

673
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: and some people don't like to do that. They want

674
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: to be like very focused on kind of clear fits

675
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: and motive. You know, a team being motivated to move

676
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 1: someone and I'd rather have a conversation and because maybe

677
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 1: you can motivate them to do something.

678
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 3: I'm taken aback by how similar some of these like

679
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 3: contacts and situations sound of fantasy leagues that I know,

680
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: I play, and I know the mark plays into just

681
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 3: about having those relationships. Is there something to the fact

682
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: that we see a lot of teams like look up

683
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 3: for trades all the time between two teams. We see

684
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 3: the A's and the Braves trade all the time. We've

685
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 3: seen the Brewers and the race trade all the time.

686
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: Is there something just simple the person the person relationship

687
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 3: making it easier to get some deals done.

688
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: I think it can be. I think their styles or

689
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: more the styles of the of the different teams are

690
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: is more a driver. There are some teams that are

691
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: deal makers right, like I mentioned before, they're aggressive, like

692
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: those are usually the teams you want to talk to

693
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: because you might actually get a deal done. And it

694
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're going to like fleece them. They may

695
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: you may have a you're trying to get fair deal

696
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: that the goal isn't to win a deal, it's to

697
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: do something that makes sense for your club and something

698
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: they're doing, you're matching up on a what makes sense

699
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: for them, the timing of where they're at where versus

700
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: where your organization's at. But then there's other teams that

701
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: you kind of, you know, feel like they're sometimes doing

702
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: an academic exercise where you know, you you know, and

703
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: some people get very frustrated by that. And I, you know,

704
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: at times I got frustrated. It's like I think they're

705
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: just information gathering and you know, throwing out things that

706
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: are never going to happen and wasting my time. I

707
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: didn't get mad about it, but I know some people

708
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: do to the point where they'll say, hey, this team's

709
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: calling me. Actually remember having conversations, you know, the Cubs

710
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: that you're traded a bunch of players, right, they were

711
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: at a big fire so and I remember talking. I

712
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: was talking to Jed Howry a lot because we were

713
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: in on a bunch of those players. And I remember

714
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: at one point he was saying, Hey, I have a

715
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: bandwidth issue, right, I got to trade a bunch of

716
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: people in this time period and get the best deals

717
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 1: I can. So I'm going to be very focused when

718
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 1: I think there's actually a potential deal and there's not teams.

719
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: I got to weed out the teams that are probably

720
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: just he didn't say this, but I'm saying that's kind

721
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: of going through a little bit of an academic exercise

722
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 1: and just I you know, just kind of put them aside,

723
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: which I thought was interesting. It made sense. It's like

724
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: you just can't waste time. So you know, there's certain

725
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 1: teams that I know I heard after the fact that like, oh,

726
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,479
Speaker 1: he wouldn't return our calls, and I'm thinking, yeah, because

727
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: he had a lot to do, and yeah, you know,

728
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: you're it takes sometimes sometimes it takes like fifty calls

729
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: with certain teams to get a deal done. Just grind

730
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: and grind and grind. And you know, some teams we

731
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: referred to as the Grinder or certain organizations and you

732
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: actually see like GM trees that way, Like I'm grew

733
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: up under theo Epstein and like the Theoepstein's a deal maker,

734
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: and most of the people that work under him that

735
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: ended up going on to those roles were also deal makers.

736
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: And that was kind of you know, it didn't mean reckless,

737
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: but being a you know, aggressive but thoughtfully. So it

738
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: was kind of the way of most most of the

739
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: people that came up under you. And I think there's

740
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: other trees that you see that are significantly more conservative,

741
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: whether that's because they kind of grew out of a

742
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: smaller market or what. And so it is. It is

743
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: interesting because that's what can make create some roadblocks on

744
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: getting trades done.

745
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,959
Speaker 2: I think I could talk about all this, like very

746
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,399
Speaker 2: in depth trade stuff in like front office stuff, for

747
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: like another hour, but I think we're gonna ask you

748
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 2: each one more question just to wrap this up. We

749
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 2: don't want to take too much more of your time.

750
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,720
Speaker 2: Taking a look back at the Mets, who's a player

751
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 2: in the organization that you feel like maybe Mets fans

752
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 2: the media just in general are kind of doubting, maybe

753
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 2: sleeping on a little bit too much.

754
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: You know. I think it's easy to look at some

755
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: of the younger players that haven't really made it yet

756
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: like a bait. Brett baby. I mean, he was such

757
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: a good prospect, and there were there were things he

758
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: needed to work on. You know, he wasn't really pulling

759
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: the ball much, and you know that was a concern

760
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: that he wouldn't get to his power that frequently because

761
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: of that. You know, I haven't been falling it that closely,

762
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 1: but it looks like he's been showing some pull power

763
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: at least a spring. I mean, I still think he

764
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: has some upside, but it's really you know, he's they

765
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: have a situation with him and Mauricio and Acunya and

766
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: maybe someone else. I'm forgetting where they're This is their

767
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 1: last option here, so like they had to figure out

768
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: who they are or else. All of a sudden, your

769
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: value kind of craters if it hasn't already, which it

770
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: probably has in some cases. So you know, I'm not

771
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: going to say he's going to make a big impact

772
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: this year necessarily for them, but I still think he's

773
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: an undervalued player.

774
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 3: This would be a very different question. You wrote a

775
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 3: big piece for MLB Trade Rumors last month about deferrals

776
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 3: and kind of what they mean internally versus their public perceptions.

777
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: I think the way that some fans look at it

778
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 3: is that the Dodgers are using these deferrals to ruin

779
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 3: the game and kind of take advantage of like a

780
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 3: roster building hack where it seems like people on the

781
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 3: inside don't consider them very much and players seem to

782
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: like them. Players seem to like a deferral. So what

783
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: kind of maybe be surmised with article a little bit

784
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 3: and talk about why or why where the public might

785
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 3: miss what deferrals actually mean and do for team building.

786
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think because especially because Otani was such an

787
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 1: extreme example of deferrals, it's gotten a lot of attention.

788
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: It's not a new strategy to try to get a

789
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: deal done. We've just seen it so frequently. The Dodgers

790
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: have done this where they've deferred a significant a lot

791
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: of money and in their case also given signing bonuses

792
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: to those players. So you've just seen like pretty extreme

793
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: contract structures coming from them. All that really matters is

794
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: is the present value, right, Like, It's the reason I

795
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: wrote the articles because people were saying, like, oh, they

796
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: should have a luxury tax number of seventy, you know,

797
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: should be the number or whatever on Otani, and I

798
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: strongly disagree with that because that's not the real value.

799
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: I mean, he's deferred so much money that you know,

800
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 1: a dollar now is definitely more valuable than you know,

801
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: however many years later he's getting it. So we can't

802
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: just ignore that. Now. Can every team do that? No,

803
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: But it's not different than the situation that exists in

804
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: baseball and has for years, Like the haves can do

805
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: stuff like that and the have nots cannot. So I

806
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: mean they can do it, just on a smaller scale.

807
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: So you know, I just don't think that in particular,

808
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 1: that mechanism of a contract structure is what creates potential

809
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: imbalance or on fairness. It's the actual revenue discrepancy and

810
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: dollars that those teams have. So that was really the

811
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: point of the article was it's not about contract structures.

812
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: It's the same thing it's always been about, which is

813
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: just having more money than the next guy.

814
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the things that makes baseball unique,

815
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 2: no salary cap, and it definitely operates a lot different

816
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 2: than all the other sports. But Zach, thank you so

817
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: much for coming on. It was absolutely a pleasure to

818
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 2: have you let everybody know at home where they can

819
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 2: find you what you're up to and plug all your

820
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 2: stuff that you want.

821
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can find me on at Zach Scott's Sports

822
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 1: on really any social channel and yeah, and you'll see.

823
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: Like you mentioned, I've been starting to write some articles

824
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: for MLB Trade Rumors. There's another one this week that's

825
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: coming out as early as today about really the medical

826
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,720
Speaker 1: review process that goes into signing free agents and before

827
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: you do trades, and kind of see it as relevant

828
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: as some guys with the Mets and Yankees have signed

829
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: contracts this offseason and immediately had significant injuries. And I've

830
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: heard some people say, well, how do they not know

831
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: this before they signed the guys? So it's really about

832
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: that process and how it's a lot more art than science.

833
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I'm writing articles there and as you

834
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 1: mentioned before, I'm on s n Y about once a

835
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: week on their weeknight show Baseball Night in New York.

836
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 2: Awesome, Zach, thank you so much, appreciate it, and we'll

837
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 2: talk to you guys on the next episode.

838
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 1: Thanks guys,