1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: When someone won't even acknowledge that you work for them, 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: like they're certainly not gonna acknowledge your humanity if they 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: don't value enough to give you the proper legal paperwork, 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: they do not care how your day is going. And 5 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: there's a problem. There are no girls on the Internet. 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: As a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative, 7 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: I'm Bridget Todd, and this is there are no girls 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: on the Internet. We're in what feels like a little 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: bit of a renaissance when it comes to organized labor 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: and unions. More and more workers, whether they're barista's at 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: Starbucks or journalists, are seeing the power of unions and 12 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: organizing as a collective. And even though we may be 13 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,639 Speaker 1: used to have an idea of the union member as 14 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: being a white guy working at an auto factory or 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: steel mill, the face of who we understand as somebody 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: who needs a union is really changing too. More and 17 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: more media workers and office tech workers, for instance, are 18 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: trying to unionize. This shift is something that labor reporter 19 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: Kim Kelly is really happy to see. I'm Kim Kelly, 20 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: and I am an independent labor reporter and the author 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: of Fight Like Hell, The Untold history of American labor. 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: So how did you become someone who cared about labor 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 1: and telling the story of all of these different fights. 24 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: So I guess the short answer is I got involved 25 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: in organizing my workplace. That's kind of a direct pipeline 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: right there, right to caring about the labor movement joining it. 27 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: But this was the longer answers, like, well, I'm from 28 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: a union family from very like rural working class, kind 29 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: of isolated place, and everyone who raised me was a 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: construction worker, steel worker, teacher, like everyone was in the union. 31 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: It wasn't something that we really talked about that much. 32 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: We really was, you know, really discussed. It was just 33 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: part of the job, part of life, like, oh, yeah, 34 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: that's in a union. That's why we have health insurance, 35 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: that's why he has to go to this meeting sometimes, 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: why he's on strike and we can't go to Walmart, 37 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: you know, things like that. And it wasn't really until 38 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: I was advice whereas the heavy metal editor as some 39 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: colleagues pulled me aside or like, hey, we wanna form 40 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: a union, what do you think, Like, hell yeah, and 41 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: let me get involved in that, that I realized that 42 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: there were even it was even an option like that 43 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: there were unions for people like me, someone who at 44 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: that point was writing about death on the internet. But 45 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: it turns out there was, and we joined it. Kim 46 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: got more and more involved in unions to organizing amound 47 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: her own union at the media company Vice, and we've 48 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: organized like almost I think by the time I got 49 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: laid off in twenty nineteen, we'd organized like five or 50 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: six hundred people in the building, and we'd barked in 51 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: two different contracts, like we've gotten raised, we'd improve the workplace. 52 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: We've done a ton, we'd accomplished a lot. And I 53 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: was deeply involved the whole time because being in a 54 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: union had always kind of appealed to me as an idea, 55 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: as something that fit into my political like my political 56 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: views in my worldview, and it just kind of felt 57 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: nice to join that family tradition. But um, I didn't 58 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: really start writing about it with any sort of regularity 59 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: or depth until after we unionized, and I was already 60 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: freelancing a lot working advice because they didn't pay a 61 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 1: ship until we organized another big endorsement for unionizing your workplace. Um, yeah, 62 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: it's freelancing in time, and uh, really It just kind 63 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: of happened by not by accident, but unexpectedly because I 64 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: was writing a little bit just freelance stuff about the 65 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: prison industrial complex rou team book, and I pitched them 66 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: on a profile of Mother Jones, you know, the labor leader. 67 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, your audience is predominantly like younger women, like, 68 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: here's a cool icon we can talk about. And my 69 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: editors said, yeah, that's a cool idea, but I don't 70 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: think our audience necessarily knows what a union is, so 71 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: why don't you write about that first? I was like okay, 72 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: and I wrote a little explainer because at that point 73 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: I kind of learned more about the movement, about the history, 74 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: from talking the organizers who work with, from reading books 75 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: on my own, from just getting all fired up about 76 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: union stuff as like a baby organized there. And I 77 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: wrote that article and it kind of it was like 78 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: many viral people paying attention because in seventeen people weren't 79 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: necessarily used to looking to teen Vogue for their like 80 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: anti capitalist analysis. Yet they're like, what is this? Essentially 81 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: like it that helped me as a freelancer, And I 82 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: was like, okay, that went, well, what if you let 83 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: me do a whole column and they're like, yeah, okay, 84 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: we'll try it. And I was like four years ago, 85 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: and really just having that experience organizing and kind of 86 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: learning on the fly and being a big nerd on 87 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: loving history books kind of made me feel like I 88 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: was allowed to write about labor, like I had a 89 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: leg to stand on. And once I kind of gave 90 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: myself that permission, I really just dove in and start 91 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: writing more and writing more, talking more. People just kind 92 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: of fell in love with the idea. Right because I 93 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: spent my whole life up till then writing about heavy metal, 94 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: which is still a great love and still a huge 95 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: part of my life. But I was kind of looking 96 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: for something new and the Union happened to be there 97 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: at exactly the right time. And once I realized I 98 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: was going to more union meetings than have metal shows, 99 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, maybe it's time to actually try and 100 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: do this. And here we are. Wow. What what a trajectory. Yeah, 101 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it. Really. I see a lot 102 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: of through lines in your work and I I remember 103 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: the Vice unionization fight and um, I heard radio where 104 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: my podcast has hosted me this recently, which is a 105 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: big deal. I guess it's a good question. What do 106 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 1: you think of this idea that I don't know. I 107 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 1: often I think that everybody could benefit from a union. 108 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: I think the benefits are there for unions and for everybody. 109 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: But I often hear this kind of pushback that like, oh, 110 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: what does an office media worker need a union for? What? 111 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: What do you say to things like that? Oh? It 112 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: makes me so mad because it's just and it's always 113 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: like stupid, like rich white guys on Twitter that just 114 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: feels the need to have opinions about Oh, well, Brad, 115 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: students don't need a union. Video game workers on need union. 116 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: Journalist don't in the union. You're not working in a 117 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: coal mine or in a factory. Okay? Do you have 118 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: a boss? It? Does you rely on someone else's decisions 119 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: to pay your bills? Do you have to go to 120 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: an office you have coworkers? Are you getting mistreated or 121 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: getting disrespected? Like? Are you going to a job? Do 122 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: you work for someone? Then you need a union. It 123 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: is ridiculous to act as though different categories of work 124 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: or whether were you doing like the white collar blue 125 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: collar sort of dichotomy or whatever other artificial division that 126 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: somebody with an interest in preserving capital likes to lean 127 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 1: on Like it's it's never been the case that only 128 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: one type of worker, one demographic of worker, is allowed 129 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: to have a union or is encouraged to have a union, 130 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: is benefited from having a union, Like every type of 131 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: worker can benefit from having a union, and it's not 132 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: even necessarily you don't have to go through the specific 133 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: process of like filing for an election too, with an 134 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 1: LFP doing all of the kind of bureaucratic rent a 135 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: bs that a lot of workers are kind of forced 136 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: to deal with. Now to form a union, you can 137 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: just get together with your coworkers and try and make 138 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: some ship happen. Like there's no one way to be 139 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: a union member. There's no one way to be a union, 140 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: and they're all valid and important, and honestly, building collective 141 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: power with your coworkers is the most effective and empowering 142 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: thing that you can do, because one worker on their 143 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: own can only do so much, but a bunch of us, 144 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: whether it's five or fifty or five hundred, that's how 145 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: you move mountains. Whether you work in an office, where 146 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: you work in a coal mine and you work at Amazon, 147 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: or you're a gig worker like someone is trying to 148 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: screw you over, and the only way you can stop 149 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: that is by getting together with a bunch of other 150 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: people who are feeling screwing screwed over doing something about it. You. 151 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: I love how you put that. And that's the thing 152 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: that I really love about talking about labor and that 153 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: you know, collective organizing, and it's something I really see 154 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: as a value that it's about pole banning together oftentimes 155 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: against massive, powerful companies like Amazon that have like teams 156 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: of lawyers and pr and all of this. But even 157 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: with all that institutional power, they're not more powerful than 158 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: the collective. They're not more powerful than people coming together. 159 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: Is that something that you see in these union stories 160 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I mean, Jeff Bezos is the new 161 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: gul Like we talked about, we're in the new Gilded Age. 162 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: The railroad barons, like they controlled the rails, they control 163 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: all the capital, but the workers built those rails, and 164 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 1: the workers shut them down a whole bunch then struck 165 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 1: fear to the hearts of the capitalist class, like there's 166 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: there's always more of us than there are of them. 167 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: And I think that's something that workers sometimes forget because 168 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: we are so disenfranchise and isolated and beating down. But 169 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: the people on top never forget that, and that's why 170 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: they get so frightened and anxious when they see workers organizing, 171 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: because they know that they're outnumbered and that if a 172 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: whole bunch of people want to make them do something, 173 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, we've done it before and we'll do it again. 174 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: Like there's the history of labor in this country is 175 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: very complicated. There's a lot of wins, there's a lot 176 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 1: of losses. There's a lot of struggle and bloodshed and 177 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: beautiful things and terrible things. But every step forward that 178 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: we've made as a country has come from workers, has 179 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: come from regular working people down in their tools and 180 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: saying all right, I've had enough of this ship. Let's 181 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: do something. And that is something that has not gone away, 182 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: and especially now I think we're there's something we're gonna 183 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: keep seeing more of. Because it's easier for people to 184 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: be connected to one another, it's easier for people to 185 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: see other folks taking control. Whether you're you know a 186 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: Starbucks customer, you buy stuff from Amazon, you've got an 187 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: r e I, you have a friend who works as 188 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 1: a grad student, like someone in your life is probably 189 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 1: part of some kind of organizing effort. And if they're not, 190 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: you can help them start, or you can start your own. Like, 191 00:09:53,760 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: the possibilities are endless. Let's hit quick break at her 192 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: back this this right here, Um, this is gonna be 193 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: the catalysts were the revolution. That's exactly what this is. 194 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: Back in April, Amazon warehouse workers on Staten Islands JFK eight, 195 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: the Amazon warehouse with the most employees in the state 196 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: of New York, want a historic bid to form a 197 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 1: labor union. It's the very first Amazon facility in the 198 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: United States to have a successful union election, which is huge. 199 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: So we know that workers at JFK A, the Amazon 200 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: warehouse in Staten Island, they won a union election and 201 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: they kind of went against some of the conventional wisdom, 202 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: you know, they started their own independent organization instead of 203 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: trying to join and got established national union. And I've 204 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: read some of your writing on this and it sounds 205 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: like of you, it really just comes down to the workers. Um, 206 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: can you tell us more about kind of like what 207 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: you mean by this. Yeah, So here's the thing. Like 208 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 1: what Amazon labor union organizers did was incredible and inspiring 209 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: and so important, and it's also not anything new, right, 210 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: the idea of building a union from the ground up, 211 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 1: of building real human bonds and connections and solidarity, forming 212 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: a community to fight instead of you know, following us 213 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: prescriptive playbook doing what you're supposed to do, because that's 214 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: how it's done, that's how it sometimes works, like everyone 215 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: has to do anything like this is uh, this is 216 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: the thing. I mean, that's one of the reasons they're 217 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: so successful. They kind of threw out that playbook and 218 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: drew on whether or not it was intentional. They drew 219 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: on these kind of historical examples of workers in their 220 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: position doing the exact same thing. Because the workers that 221 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: organized at JFK A predominantly like younger folks, queer and transpose, 222 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: black and brown workers, immigrant workers, multi lingual, multigenerational, I'm 223 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,119 Speaker 1: a vast multi racial, multigender, multi everything kind of coalition. 224 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: And that is how workers have one throughout history. And 225 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: that is not something that you maybe find in every 226 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: mainstream labor history book, but that is just true. That's 227 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: just how it is. I Mean, one of the parallels 228 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: that I, as a labor nerd I like I like 229 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: to draw between JFK A UH in history is um 230 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: what Dorothy Lee Bolden was able to do in the 231 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: sixties in Atlanta, and she was a domestic worker from 232 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: the age of nine, like really the majority of black 233 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: women in women in that city in that time that 234 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: had a job that worked in domestic service. And she realized, like, Okay, 235 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: we're not being paid enough, our work isn't being treated 236 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: properly as labor. We're being treat like garbage, and you 237 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: know what, like there's a lot of us, maybe we 238 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: can do something about this. She was actually lived a 239 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: few doors down from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And 240 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: she was commisserating with him one day and he told her, 241 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: like towards it. You know, you can just do something yourself, 242 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: if you want to change things, if you want to 243 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: organize things, like just do it. And she did. She 244 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: organized that the National Domestic Workers Union of America, which 245 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: wasn't a recognized like standard labor union. It wasn't operating 246 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: within that framework. It was an independent organization and she 247 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: had at its peak the membership roles hit I think 248 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: ten thousand people, so all black women domestic works in Atlanta, 249 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: and they built power, and they build political power. They 250 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 1: educated one another, they shared resources. In order to join, 251 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: all you had to show up with was a dollar 252 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: and a voter registration card showing the intersection between different 253 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: movements for justice. And it's such a cool example because 254 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: she did it her way and she made a huge difference. 255 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: You can see there's a direct line from dorce Lee 256 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: Bolders organization the sixties to the current National Domestic Workers Alliance, 257 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: which I mean in Philly a couple of years ago 258 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: they managed to pass an incredibly impactful bill that helped 259 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: get healthcare for domestic workers in my city. Like, everything 260 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,719 Speaker 1: builds on the work that someone did before, whether it's 261 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty or eighteen sixty. And I'm just excited 262 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: to see what's gonna happen in fifty years when someone 263 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: younger than me writes a book and interviews Chris Smalls 264 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: and asked what inspired him? Right, Because we're all part 265 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: of them. We're all links in a very long chain, 266 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: and you know, one link can do something cool, but 267 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: that whole long chain, that's how we get close to 268 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: where we need to be. I have chills. What what 269 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: a description? I used to talk to a lot of 270 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: union meetings. I love us is historical? Uh? It's Amazon 271 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: versus the people. The people have spoken. That's Chris Smalls, 272 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: the president and founder of the Amazon Labor Union. He 273 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: started working in Amazon warehouses during COVID when everybody, myself included, 274 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: was ordering a ton of stuff on Amazon. Chris started 275 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: to speak out about how warehouses were putting workers at 276 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: risk by failing to meet basic COVID mitigation protocols. So 277 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: Chris organized a walk out in protest. He was fired 278 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: that same day for, according to Amazon, failing to meet 279 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 1: social distancing protocols. So basically, Amazon was claiming that Chris 280 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: was the one who was failing to keep Amazon workers safe, 281 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: not them, which is a little sketchy. So Chris organized. 282 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: He started the Congress of Essential Workers, which later backed 283 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: the formation of the Amazon Labor Union. Amazon suits like 284 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: former Obama administration spokesperson turned Amazon PR and policy chief 285 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: Jay Carney and David Zablotsky personally smeared Chris in leaked notes. 286 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: They called him not smart and not articulate. In fact, 287 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: they thought Chris was so not smart that their plan, 288 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: according to these reports, was to make Chris the face 289 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: of the movement, because certainly that would tank it. Only 290 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: it backfired. Chris, it turns out, was an incredibly effective 291 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: organizer and spokesperson and would go on to usher in 292 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: the very first unionized Amazon warehouse in history. I mean, 293 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: it's it's so you've just hit on a couple of 294 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: things that I am fascinated by. One. I do think 295 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: we have this this issue not just in in labor organizing, 296 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: but in organizing in general, where it's so tempting to 297 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: have there be one face, like this is the person 298 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: who started this whole thing, when the reality is it's 299 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: often so many different stories and voices coming together, and 300 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: I get the inclination to make it about one central 301 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: figure that like that is such a best, such a 302 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: powerful motivating thing just in our culture, but that sometimes 303 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: it can obscure what you were just talking about. That 304 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: it's a lineage, it's about a lot of people coming 305 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: together and inspiring each other. Yeah, I saw it was 306 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: It was interesting because Twitter is always going to Twitter. 307 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: But I saw there was some criticism because people were 308 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: excited about Chris Malls, who is the leader of them 309 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: the labor Union, who was kind of the spark that 310 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: started that whole movement. When he was fired in twenty 311 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: nineteen for protesting about COVID safety, like you gotta hand 312 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: it to the guy, even like like sometimes it is 313 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: okay to life and I of someone when they have 314 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: done something incredible, And I think it is important for 315 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: us to have those working class heroes. You know, of course, 316 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: like no one person does everything. People are flawed, people 317 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: are complicated. We shouldn't, you know. Hero worship is not 318 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: something that I would recommend, but acknowledging and appreciating someone's 319 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: skill and someone's important to a movement that doesn't take 320 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: away from the collective effort. That's just kind of giving 321 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: somebody their flowers and they deserve them. And I think 322 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: something that you know, President Smallest has done in a 323 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: really wonderful way is making clear like the Amazon Labor 324 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: Union organizing Committee, like all of us did this. All 325 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: of us are in this together, like a lot of 326 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: the other organizers are public to Dirk Palmer, Angelica and 327 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: just Team Medina, like it was clearly a very collective effort. 328 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: But you know, I I think it's okay to get 329 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: excited about have a one person, you know, getting a 330 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: little bit more attention, because I mean, we need more heroes. 331 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: We need more heroes that look like us and sound 332 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: like us, and especially the fact that like a young 333 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: handsome black man with gold teeth and tattoos is like 334 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: the face of the labor movement in America right now. 335 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: That is phenomenal, Like that is going to keep the 336 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: movement moving, That is going to bring more people in. 337 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: We do not need more white guys in suits, like 338 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: we got some good ones, shout out to them. But 339 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: like the white guys in suits are also a lot 340 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: of the time the people that have their boots on 341 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: our neck. I think it is very important to recognize 342 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: who the working classes and what they look like, what 343 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: we look like and sound like a talk like to 344 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: build this connections, to bring more people in and show 345 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: that there's so much more room in the movement for 346 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: every other cut type of person. And you know, I 347 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: don't I don't want to talk too much it on 348 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: the white guys and suites. Some of them were great, 349 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: but of them are and they've had plenty of a 350 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: time to bask in their attention over the years. I 351 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: think it is perfectly fine to give someone else's shot. 352 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: Absolutely every single time I see a photo or a 353 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: video of Chris Small's and it's fitted in his dow 354 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: rat talking to an elected official. I'm like, yes, this 355 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: is like, it just feels good to see. It just 356 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: feels like and honestly, if I'm being honest, him being 357 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: like his trajectory is what got me fired up about 358 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,119 Speaker 1: the Amazon fight. I will never forget the way that 359 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: Amazon suits used this like very clearly racially coded language 360 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: to refer to him and discredit him. He's inarticulate, he's 361 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: not smart, he's not a deep thinker. And I feel 362 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: like every black and brown person, every immigrant, or anybody 363 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: connected this to one of those communities knew exactly what 364 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: these Amazon suits were trying to do. And what's so 365 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: funny is that a they were really downplaying the multi 366 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: racial workers that that that keep their company running, that 367 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: made that like they would be nothing without. And I 368 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: think that they really kind of shot themselves in the 369 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: foot because in the end, they made Chris Chris like 370 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: this lionized face of their movement beca like it kind 371 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: of in spite of their trying to discredit him, And 372 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: why they couldn't have picked a more effective spokesperson right, 373 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: like the wrong one for that if they're trying to 374 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: keep like they even said in some of their little 375 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: leaked internal memos like we're going to make him the 376 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: face of this and I remember when they want he 377 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: tweeted like, you know, thanks like a call. That was 378 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: the worst mistake I ever made. It was like it 379 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: just shows this massive disconnect between the people in the 380 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: c suite doing whatever the fund was they do all 381 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: day and the people actually working and living these communities 382 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: and trying to build power, trying to survive, Like why 383 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't people respond to a character like Chris, Like why 384 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: wouldn't people want to talk to other folks in the 385 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: organizing committee to speak their language and live in their 386 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: neighborhoods and take the bus with them? Like why would 387 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,200 Speaker 1: someone listen to some rich guy in a suit and 388 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: when they couldn't talk to someone that they're used to seeing, 389 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: like out in the neighborhood, who like someone whose cousin? 390 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: You know? Like why it's it's it. It's like a 391 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: century apart thinking about the way that the workers in 392 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: the organizing committee Amazon were able to build power and 393 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: enbridge these kind of artificial divisions. It reminds you of 394 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: this example there with me again, I'm a giant er. 395 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: I just wrote a whole book about it, but in 396 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: nine the Great Sugar strik in Hawaii, and at that 397 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: time and probably still but especially at that time, the 398 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: sugar game plantations and the islands were owned entirely by 399 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 1: white guys who lived in the mainland, and they were 400 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: worked by native Hawaiians as well as Chinese, Korean, Puerto Rican, Filipino, 401 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: Japanese immigrants, but predominantly Asian workforce from all sorts of 402 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: different places, lots of different languages, and the bosses had 403 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: a very explicit policy of treating different workers differently, unequally, 404 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: so like some workers made more than others, they kept 405 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,959 Speaker 1: all of the workers in different segregated camps so that 406 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: Chinese workers and Filipino workers, Korean workers wouldn't really see 407 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: one another, wouldn't really talk to one another. And they 408 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: did that because they wanted to make sure of the workers. 409 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: When organized, they wanted to be able to use different 410 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: groups of workers against one another, as in like earlier strikes, 411 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,239 Speaker 1: Filipino workers are brought into act as strike breakers. When 412 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: Japanese field workers went on strike, there are a lot 413 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: of instances of that kind of thing happening, and when 414 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: it came time to strike in nix the ilw IN 415 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: National Longshore Warehouse Workers Union, really cool radical union. Their 416 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: histories read, uh, there's time to strike, and they realized, Okay, 417 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: we can't let them break as apart like that again. 418 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: We need to pull people together, and how do we 419 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: do that. They brought in translators and made sure everybody 420 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: and every meeting felt heard and understood what was happening. 421 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: They had different groups of workers cooked for one another 422 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 1: and share recipes, the build community that way. Same thing 423 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 1: they did in the parking lot at Staten Island. They 424 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: brought people together on a human level and show them, 425 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: you know, you're all being exploited, you're all being treated 426 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: like garbage, you're all being You're all in this together, 427 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: whether or not you chose to be, so why not 428 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: embrace it and try to become more powerful together? And 429 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: it worked and they won. They wont like the first 430 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: big rais in like twenty years. And that's exactly what 431 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: I thought about when I heard about, you know, the 432 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: barbecues and the Joel Off Rice and all of the 433 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: just the very personal, intimate kind of organizing and connecting 434 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: those happening in the parking lot, in the break room 435 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: in Amazon and JFK Like when you connect with people 436 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: as people and listen to them and hear them, that's 437 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: when magic happens. Like it sounds so basic, but I 438 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: feel like people in charge don't get that because they 439 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: don't see us as people. Yeah, that's and I think 440 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: it really goes back to what you were saying, that 441 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: people coming together, people uniting in the power of community 442 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: and shared vision and a collective, that that's such a 443 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: powerful force. And it's not surprising to me that the 444 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 1: powers that be, whether it's you know, sugarcane owners or Amazon, 445 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: is like, Oh, we gotta keep these people divided, we 446 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: gotta keep them. We have to really inflame these divisions 447 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: because when they come together, there's more of them than 448 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 1: there are of us, and they are very powerful. And 449 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: so just figuring out ways to to like really rely 450 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 1: on those community bonds, I think it's so important and valuable, 451 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: and like unions have screwed that up over the years. 452 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: To the labor movement is not the track record is 453 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: not great, especially when it comes to like I mean 454 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: even now right so earlier, I always think about this 455 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: example that makes me so mad, the American Federation of Labor, 456 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: which was like an earlier organization that later got folded 457 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,719 Speaker 1: into the say yoh, that's a whole thing. But I 458 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: like the eight hundreds eighteen eighties, when the Chinese Exclusion 459 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 1: Act was passed, the NFL were big supporters. They're all 460 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: about it. And that was obviously incredibly xenophobic, racist legislation 461 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: that kept Chinese workers and other Asian workers out of 462 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: the country for decades. And at that point those labor 463 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: leaders embraced that because they didn't want people to come 464 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 1: in and take their members jobs. And now that is 465 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: a familiar refrain that we've seen throughout the centuries. Like 466 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 1: at one point it was women, than it was black workers, 467 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: Chinese and other other Asian workers. Now it's Mexican, South 468 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: American Central American workers who are being painted with that brush. 469 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: Like there's always this reactionary impulse in some corners to 470 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: say that all these other people are coming in and 471 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: taking everything we built, how do you think you built 472 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: in the first place by organizing people and trying to 473 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: help workers, Like that kind of mentality is harmed the 474 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: movement and harm so many workers over the century, Like 475 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: just those thought of seeing a new group of workers 476 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: coming in who are more vulnerable who are desperate for work, 477 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: who are in a marginalized position, and thinking oh, no, 478 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: they're gonna mess with our our guys are people, instead 479 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: of thinking, oh, we need to organize them and bring 480 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: them in so we can help them out, and like 481 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: our union will be stronger as a result. The unions 482 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: who have done that are still around, like they are 483 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 1: more effective than the ones that were you know, exclusionary. 484 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: And I refused to kind of get with the times 485 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: and realize that all workers deserving union and all workers 486 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: maybe desert to join your union depending on what you do. 487 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: It is, like I think, a good example of unions 488 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: kind of and this isn't necessarily like um, that type 489 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: of division. This is more like just workplace division. But 490 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: I think about the United Auto Workers, who are obviously 491 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: the storied industrial union, Like there's a touch it them 492 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: in the book, and they're you know, they've been around forever. 493 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: They're synonymous with like Detroit at the rust belt and like, 494 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: you know, the automotive industry, and right now, out of 495 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: their four hundred thousand members, a quarter of those hundred 496 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: thousand people they are grand students, They work in education, 497 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: they work in colleges, and universities in California and across 498 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: the country, like, and that is the big shift, and 499 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: that's a great like, that is how you evolve, That 500 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: is how you grow and stay relevant. Like sure, an 501 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: adject professor, you know, university California has a different experience 502 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: from someone working in a plant in Flint, Michigan. But 503 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that they still don't need those higher 504 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: wages as better working conditions, that protections of the union contract, 505 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: like we're all in this together, and the sooner than 506 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: people realize that an act and organized around that principle, 507 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: like is a sooner we're gonna get you done, the 508 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: sooner we'll get free. I mean literally, it's so simple. 509 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: People have funked it up so much earlier. More after 510 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 1: a quick break, let's get right back into it. So 511 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 1: this is probably where I should say that I have 512 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: a pretty complicated personal relationship with Amazon. If you walked 513 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: into my apartment building on any given day, there's probably 514 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: a few Amazon boxes shamefully stacked up in the trash, 515 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: And I honestly don't want to tell you how much 516 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: I ordered from them. Let's just say it's a lot, 517 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: and I'd be willing to bet that I am not alone. 518 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: It's just the truth that our myself very much included 519 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: individual actions impact what life is like for workers at 520 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: Amazon warehouses. So what should we do so to that 521 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: vein of sort of the sooner we realize we're all 522 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: in this together, I have to sort of admit something 523 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: something that I'm like, it's one of it's probably there's 524 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 1: probably not many things in my life that I am 525 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: like more deeply personally ashamed of than my personal relationship 526 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: to Amazon. I got very hooked on it during the 527 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: pandemic um And what I really mean is like I 528 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: was clearly sort of like relying on it to experience 529 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: like a short term serotonin boost of like new ship 530 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: at my door, because I was depressed and said, like 531 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: like most people, oh god, there's that's a four There's 532 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: just a four box right behind you, right behind this 533 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: laptop that you can't see. So I and I think 534 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: there are probably people out there are listening who can relate. 535 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: You know, do you think that there is a need 536 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: for all of us to sort of recalibrate around the 537 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: human cost of companies like Amazon and sort of just 538 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: like what it means do I listened to Amazon workers 539 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: talk about how they're not robots. But I think it 540 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: can be hard for people, especially people who might kind 541 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: of have to rely on Amazon for whatever reason, like 542 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: maybe they have a disability, maybe they're a new mom, 543 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: and like, you know, it's just like how how ship 544 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: gets on in their household? Um, I don't know, I 545 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: guess I I wonder how can we Is there a 546 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: way for us to sort of meaningly recalibrate so that 547 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: people to to sort of feel more attuned with the 548 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: fact that, like, yeah, the reason why I was able 549 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: to get a new hat in twenty four hours is 550 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: because of a person who brought it here and a 551 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: person who put it in a box for me. And 552 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: that's hard. That's like one of the great connundrums of 553 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: modern existence, right, like the idea of like no equo 554 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: consumption under capitalism. I'm probably not even smart enough to 555 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: discuss all the implications of that, right, But and I 556 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: do think that it's important to recognize the individual people 557 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: should not necessarily be on the hook for the actions 558 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: of massive corporations and the failed government that it's allowed 559 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: that things to get to this point. I mean, I 560 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: personally try to avoid Amazon, but like half the time. 561 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: That just means I'm trying to find something on Walmart 562 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: dot com. You know, like it's not we're kind of 563 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: we're stuck in this current reality. I mean, you can 564 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: do little things like instead of pushing for two dayship 565 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: and go for like the later option, you know, like 566 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 1: if you're able, just go to the store, like if 567 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: you are not. Because a lot of people, like you said, 568 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: are dependent on delivery services because they're disabled, they're being 569 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: to compromise, they have other stressors in their life that 570 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: means that they need to use these services. And I 571 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: think that is fine, Like people need to survive and 572 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: people need to thrive in the ways that they're able to. 573 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, I think that ditching Amazon would be cool. 574 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: But then if everyone in the nation was like, we're 575 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: gonna boycott Amazon and then did it, that would be cool. 576 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: That would have an impact. But the US government still 577 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: pays Amazon to like use the internet, like there's all 578 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: their their tentacles are so to deep and everything we 579 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: consume in every part of our existence as like beings 580 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: who use technology, that there's only so much the individual 581 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: consumers can do. So I don't know, like try to 582 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: avoid it if you can, But like halftime. My mother 583 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: in law sends us crap off Amazon anyway, Like she 584 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: does not listen to me. She's Italian. It's a hard question, right, Like, 585 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: I think even what you're talking about now, like this 586 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: step of realism, Like I got this because a person 587 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: brought it to me, A person pack that that person 588 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: might be in pain, that person might be having a 589 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: hard time. Even just internalizing and understanding that aspect of 590 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: things will probably impact your consumer habits and will probably 591 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: impact the way you see, you know, petitions about workers 592 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: asking for better working conditions, or the way that you 593 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: support union drives. Like, I think the first step that 594 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: any person can take, no matter the situation, is to 595 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: recognize the human cost of this. You know, these consumption patterns. 596 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: This set up this whole, you know, a capitalist healthscape 597 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: we're trapped within, Like and then what you do from 598 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: there is kind of up to you. But I think 599 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: the putting the onus on individual people to fix all 600 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 1: this stuff isn't really fair when we have a government 601 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: and a social system and a capitalist society to blame. 602 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: You know, you can if we all got together and 603 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: did a boycott, that would be cool, But I don't 604 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,719 Speaker 1: know It's it's a hard question, like how do you 605 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: go up against a giant when you're not like because consumers. 606 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: There's probably where the consumers could organize against Amazon, but 607 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: I don't know how. Look like what the boycott is strike. 608 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: It's I feel like people I see people talking about 609 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: all we get a boycott Amazon all the time whenever 610 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: news comes out of how terrible they are. I'm like, yeah, 611 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: avoiding if you can, but I think we need some 612 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: kind of greater, like concentrated strategy if we really wanted 613 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: to take him down, and then what what kind of 614 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: after them? Where we gonna go after Walmart and Target? 615 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: Like that's cool too, but it's it's a big thorny thing. 616 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: And if it comes down to it, at the very least, 617 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: don't pick twenty four hours shipping. Yeah, that's that's a 618 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: that's a good like practical if you've got to if 619 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: you've got a little bit of a problematic relationship with Amazon, 620 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: like I do, at least you know you can you 621 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: can make that experience if you're going to buy from them, 622 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: make that experience a little less crappy for some of 623 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: the workers who are doing the work to bring you 624 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: your serotonin boost or the like life saving medicine that 625 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: you need or what have you. Yeah, it's it comes 626 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: down to remembering that there are people in those warehouses, 627 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: and a lot of them are in pay, and a 628 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: lot of them are struggling. Some of them are going 629 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: to lose their lives because the way the Amazon operates. 630 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: And I mean, maybe I'm going to be in the 631 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: electoral guy, but pressuring your elected officials to try and 632 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: do something about Amazon incorporations like that, that could be 633 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: an avenue for people to I feel like there's a 634 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: lot of different ways to slay a giant, or at least, 635 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: you know, cut a couple pounds of flesh off of them. 636 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: And hopefully one thing we'll see you from the success 637 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: of Amazon, they re union drive and you know, hopefully 638 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: more rumblings that we'll see across the countries that people 639 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: will realize what's happening and realize the role they play 640 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: and just maybe re evaluate the way that they interact 641 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: with that system. And you know, if they have friends 642 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: in Amazon, maybe tell them about the union that you 643 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: knew would be a good step too. Yeah. I like that. 644 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: I mean it's so interesting because I was reading the 645 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: story yesterday, I think it was yesterday about how the 646 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: food delivery service grub Hub had this three they were 647 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: gonna do free lunch for three hours yesterday and it 648 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: basically was a ship show. All the kitchens were really 649 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: backed up, and come to find out, they didn't tell 650 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: any of the kitchens or the delivery drivers that this 651 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: was happening, And so part of me was like, are 652 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: they just so divorced from the idea of like human 653 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: labor that they didn't even think that they needed to 654 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: give these people a heads up on what they were doing. 655 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: It's like, I mean, they don't consider those people employees 656 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: even though they clearly work for the country, and they 657 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: don't consider them equal partners when they're dealing with these 658 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: independent restaurants. I mean, grab mob. It's so shady. I 659 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: was just reading today, like I live across the corner 660 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: from like an incredible Indonesian restaurant and they're they're posting 661 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: on Instagram like please don't order for rebhub. We didn't 662 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: ask to be on there. They don't have our prices right, Like, 663 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: we were trying to get them to take it down, 664 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: like they will do that. They'll try and encroach on 665 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: independent businesses like whole operations just because they think it 666 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: might get them more of a commission, Like they don't 667 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: care about the people they quote unquote partner with at all, 668 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: whether their business owners and restaurant workers or the delivery workers. 669 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: Like it does come with them down to that idea 670 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: that the people that are doing this labor are invisible 671 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: to the people that are making these decisions that impact 672 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: their days, like, oh, they'll they'll figure it out. Oh, 673 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: there's plenty of drivers. Oh this there's so many ways 674 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,399 Speaker 1: to justify treating people poorly if you don't have their 675 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: welfare and their well being at the top of your mind. 676 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: And that's clearly what happens with these tech companies. They 677 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: don't like the fact that so many people that work 678 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: for tech companies are resigned in this weird nether realm 679 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: of gig work instead of just being given a W 680 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 1: two and clearly acknowledged as the employees they are, Like 681 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: when someone won't even acknowledge that you work for them, 682 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: like they're certainly not gonna acknowledge your humanity if they 683 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: don't value enough to give you the proper legal paperwork. 684 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: They do not care how your day is going, and 685 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,439 Speaker 1: that is the problem. It is a problem. I mean, 686 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: it's I it's so interesting to me how oftentimes tech company, 687 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: like when we're talking about organized, organized labor, it's often 688 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 1: conversations about tech companies. Do you do you see technology 689 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: and labor as linked? Oh yeah, And I'm not I'm 690 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: not a technology guy. And there's definitely reporters who do 691 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: really good work in that space, but especially folks at 692 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: Motherboard shout out to Edward and Weso and Lauren Gurley. 693 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: They're really on top of those those intersections. I'm kind 694 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: of a dummy when it comes to tech stuff, but 695 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: even just in terms of what you see happening, whether 696 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 1: it's in like the gig work world, or the increasing 697 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: surveillance that companies are able to of you against you 698 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: need organizes this you know, Amazon's little band word list 699 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: on their internal chat or the whole big brother aspect 700 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: of them being able to monitor everything you do. Like, 701 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 1: technology and labor have always been connected, I mean, going 702 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: back to the Industrial Revolution, right, like that new technology 703 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,959 Speaker 1: that came in back in the day pulled people out 704 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: of uprooted society, pulled people into these factories and these 705 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: dark satanic mills, totally kind of reconceived the way people 706 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: related to labor and wage labor specifically. I mean, one 707 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: of the things about tech work and like gig work, 708 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: I keep harping on this gigwork gig economy thing, but 709 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: I think it is so insiduous and it is such 710 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 1: a big issue in labor right now, is that that's 711 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: not necessarily a new thing either. Because when you think 712 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: about gigork, like someone who is a gig worker, you're 713 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: giving You're giving little assignments and you get a little 714 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,479 Speaker 1: bit of money for every little piece that you do. 715 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,760 Speaker 1: You don't have a specific set work day or set hours. 716 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: You're just kind of picking up whatever scraps come your 717 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: way and trying to piece together something you can survive on. 718 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: That is a very old concept, going back to like 719 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds, something called piece work. Garment workers 720 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: in New York City specifically at that time, spend all 721 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: day laboring at the factory. And all day I mean 722 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 1: like twelve plus hours and poorly ventilated, hot or cold, 723 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: locked door just nightmare places. They and a lot of 724 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: them were women, a lot of them were children. Supposed 725 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: would go spend all day in the factory and then 726 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: come home and they would bring home more scraps of 727 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: fabric or unfinished projects and work on these pieces and 728 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: they would get paid by the piece, And basically like 729 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: they're kind of their predecessors of the folks that are 730 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: stuck in this predicament right now because they didn't have 731 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 1: let me, they had their their day job, but they 732 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: were trying to make more money because they're being paid 733 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: so poorly at their day job by doing these bits 734 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: and pieces, and of course they got short changed. Of 735 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,799 Speaker 1: course they were. You know, this isn't like in the 736 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: era of candle lights. So imagine someone hunched over sewing 737 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: a shirtwaist at one am in the morning for that 738 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,240 Speaker 1: to wake up at five to go to the factory. 739 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,760 Speaker 1: Like that is not that far removed from what today's 740 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 1: delivery drivers and rideshare app drivers and all of the 741 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,399 Speaker 1: other things that are now being grouped into this sort 742 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: of amorphous gig work, remote work, just this weird morass 743 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: of garbage. It happened before, and regulations and labor laws 744 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: and progress in that space kind of chipped away with that, 745 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: and right now we're kind of in this weird wild 746 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 1: West zone where protech companies can do whatever they want, 747 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: which seems like maybe somebody in charge to do something 748 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: about that. But half people in charge or like friends 749 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: with the tech people. So it's a it's a little 750 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: bit of a different world, but some things really haven't changed. Yeah, 751 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,360 Speaker 1: I definitely, I definitely see that as well. UM. So 752 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the book a little bit 753 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 1: so fight like hell the untold story, untold history of 754 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,439 Speaker 1: American labor. Um, you really right a at the ways 755 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: that people who have been historically marginalized, like women in 756 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,279 Speaker 1: black folks and indigenous folks, um, were the lifeblood of 757 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,360 Speaker 1: labor and always have been, and like our stories and 758 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: our voices were always there, even though you know, I 759 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: feel like the face of what we think of as 760 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: as someone involved in the union is like a white male. Um. 761 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: I guess my question is one, how do we make 762 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: sure that we're telling a more authentic story of what 763 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 1: the face of labor actually looks like? And are there 764 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: any do you have a favorite figure or a person 765 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: who you want to get more shine in the history 766 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 1: of labor? Yeah, well, okay gives it the second part 767 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: in the second but I think like it's one of 768 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: the most important things to realize. I recognized. It's like, 769 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: you know that the subtitles the untold history. And let's 770 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,800 Speaker 1: not to say that folks haven't been telling these stories 771 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: the whole time, right, Like the workers told them in 772 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: the first place, and then contemporary journalists and chroniclers wrote 773 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,240 Speaker 1: them down, and then historians and academic research is arguas 774 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: they dug into the past and pulled out all these 775 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 1: pieces and preserved them and analyzed them and you know, 776 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: tuck them away somewhere safe. So then like journalists and 777 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,439 Speaker 1: nerves like me could come in and kind of pull 778 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 1: together and synthesize that information and bringing out further people 779 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: to see. I think so much of it comes down 780 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: to people that are in a position to elevate these 781 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: stories and write about labor, write about history, do it 782 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 1: in a way that's accessible and intersectional and inclusive, Like 783 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: it's not that hard. Like literally, you could like any 784 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: labor book you could pick up, like they they are 785 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: black and brown and indigenous and queer and disabled folks 786 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: and women and every other gender like in those stories too. 787 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 1: It just depends on what you choose to focus on. 788 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: And I think that is something that people can be 789 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: more mindful of and certainly not folks in the academic 790 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: space who are like very specifically research specific groups or 791 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: eras like um, whether it's like Judy Young who wrote 792 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: a book called Unbound Feet of social History of San 793 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:58,720 Speaker 1: Francisco that was hugely impactful for my research into that area, 794 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,320 Speaker 1: or doctor T Hunter who wrote to Enjoy My Freedom, 795 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: which is about Black Boom's labor post reconstruction. Like, academics 796 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: have done this work, but it me it's not necessarily 797 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 1: on offer to everyone, right, Like you can't necessarily walk 798 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: into a library and pick up their books that you 799 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: should be able to. It's there's a little bit of 800 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,879 Speaker 1: a gap between what's available to folks the academic space 801 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: most available to folks that like maybe walk by Barnes 802 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: and Noble on their way home from work. And it's 803 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: really important to me to pull together as much as 804 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: I could from that history, and you know, pull from 805 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,680 Speaker 1: tons and tons of research and different historians and newspapers 806 00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: and magazine articles and interviews and put it together in 807 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: a way that made it very clear that everyone else 808 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: has always been here and it's done incredible things. And 809 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:46,879 Speaker 1: I hope that people will read my book and then 810 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 1: read the bibliography and follow those bread Chrombs and find 811 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: some more of those those important writings, because this is 812 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,360 Speaker 1: just the beginning. This is kind of an intro to 813 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 1: a lot of these folks. Like one of the people 814 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: to into your second question, one of the people that 815 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: I was so excited to write about because I thought 816 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: I knew so much about her, and it turns out 817 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: I was wrong. The woman named Lucy Parsons who and 818 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 1: I knew about her just from my involvement like Radical Space. 819 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: She's kind of like an anarchist ur icon. And I 820 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: had read an earlier biography of her from the seventies. 821 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 1: I'd read her own writings. I thought I had a 822 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,399 Speaker 1: pretty good grip on who she was. But then uh, 823 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: his story named Jacqueline Jones put out a book a 824 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: couple of years ago called The Goddess of Anarchy that 825 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: was this exhaustively researched biography of Lucy Parson's life, and 826 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: it turns out that the common wisdom about her in 827 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 1: her life was pretty wrong. Um during her lifetime and 828 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,520 Speaker 1: Lucy Parsons, she was kind of a chameleon. It was 829 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,239 Speaker 1: kind of her. She decided to shape shift a little 830 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: bit and hide who she was in order to be 831 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,920 Speaker 1: more impactful in her work and more easily relatable to 832 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: the white factory workers she was trying to organize, right, 833 00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: because she presented herself as a mixed like Anish and 834 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: indigenous maiden from Texas. That's as she said she was, 835 00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: and she said she was from there. And she moved 836 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,319 Speaker 1: to Chicago with her husband, Albert Parsons in the late 837 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, and they set up shop and started organizing 838 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: an anarchist community in the labor community. Like she was 839 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,800 Speaker 1: a dressmaker and she organized lady like women garment workers, 840 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: and she she had like a very interesting overlap, uh 841 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,600 Speaker 1: when it comes to like labor and anarchist politics, revolutionary politics, 842 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,359 Speaker 1: because at that time a lot of those folks were 843 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:31,880 Speaker 1: the same people like that was a very not incestuous, 844 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: but a very interconnected community, like the kind of still 845 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: is now, right Like radicals, we've always been here and 846 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: we've always been getting up to mischief and the labor 847 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: movement elsewhere. But so yeah, she was she and she 848 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,800 Speaker 1: was a co founder of the Industrial Works in the 849 00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: World IWW like she she had an impact in the 850 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,880 Speaker 1: labor community certainly and in labor history. But Lucy Parsons 851 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 1: was not who she said she was. She was born 852 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 1: in Virginia on a plantation. She was a black woman 853 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,840 Speaker 1: who was born enslaved, who moved out to Textas following emancipation, 854 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,920 Speaker 1: and then she kind of built up her own mythology 855 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: to protect herself and for other reasons that I don't 856 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: know what what what through her head. I haven't met her, 857 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,719 Speaker 1: but she was just as fascinating character, and she intersected 858 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 1: with so many different pieces of so many different movements. 859 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: But I tried to write a better in a way 860 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,920 Speaker 1: that showed like how important and interesting and radical and 861 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: mility she was, but also acknowledged like she was not perfect, 862 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 1: like even outside of her own identity, and you know 863 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: the way she presented herself like she didn't She made 864 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: some pretty gnarly decisions in her life, and you could 865 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,960 Speaker 1: read more about it, but it was it was a 866 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 1: challenge to write about a figure that I've admired for 867 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: so long and to kind of address a little bit 868 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: of the aguilier, messy humanity of a person like that. 869 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: But I was really excited to include her because I 870 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: feel like she's very well known in radical circles, but 871 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 1: labor people, unless you're like in Chicago and have a 872 00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,960 Speaker 1: specific interest in that point in time. You probably don't 873 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: known that much about Lucy Carson, so you probably have 874 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: a pretty negative view of her and the other anarchists. 875 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 1: And I was hoping to kind of, I don't know, 876 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: presented a more balanced view of someone who I think 877 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 1: is a really important historical figure. And that's fascinating and 878 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: it really does go back to recognizing humanity and sort 879 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,839 Speaker 1: of if you only know Lucy Parsons as this, you know, 880 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,200 Speaker 1: hero figure, that you miss out on all these other 881 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: parts of who she was and how and what made 882 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:30,880 Speaker 1: her her and how she showed up in the world. 883 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 1: And is I don't know, isn't it better to have 884 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 1: a messy, complex, honest human person to to to, you know, 885 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,040 Speaker 1: look to for guidance than a hero than someone who, 886 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 1: like you know, is just isn't isn't all those things right? 887 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 1: Because that just makes it seem like a storybook kind 888 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: of situation where fairi'sale instead of a flesh and blood 889 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 1: person historical thing that happened. And so many of the 890 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,439 Speaker 1: people in this book are complicated or they've been either 891 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: people that have been kind of left out or they 892 00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,799 Speaker 1: have been included. But not in the fullness of their 893 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: whole experience. Like um I I started out the book 894 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,560 Speaker 1: in one of the earlier chapters talking about the Triangle 895 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: Shreways Factory fire, which I feel like a lot of 896 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: people know about that. That's a big one. And Clara Lemlick, 897 00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 1: one of the organizers of the Garment Workers Union, that 898 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: was kind of in that media right, like she was 899 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,920 Speaker 1: part of the uprising of the twenty thousand in the 900 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: nineteen o nine she that was before the Triangle Factory fire. 901 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: But they're connected because Clara Lemlich, who was often painted 902 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,560 Speaker 1: as this just kind of spunky girl who stood up 903 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,799 Speaker 1: in a meeting and said we're gonna want strike, like 904 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,800 Speaker 1: she was a Ukrainian Jewish immigrant who had been organizing 905 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,239 Speaker 1: for years. She had gotten her raps broken by the 906 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,799 Speaker 1: cops on the picket line, Like she was an organizer, 907 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,319 Speaker 1: she was out there, like she was not just a 908 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: spontaneous romantic heroine like she was in that struggle. And 909 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 1: like the connection with the Triangle surew Tactory fire is 910 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: um that the work that Clara Lemlicks and other organizers 911 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: predominantly at that point used to be being Jewish women 912 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: and Italian women, the work they had done. If the 913 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,560 Speaker 1: owners of that factory had signed onto the agreement that 914 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: those organizers and that strike forced to, like most of 915 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,919 Speaker 1: the other garment factors in the area Manhattan Design, those 916 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,400 Speaker 1: workers probably wouldn't have burned to death, like they were 917 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: one of the only factories that didn't sign on to 918 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:23,279 Speaker 1: these more increased safety chords. So that's yeah, I'm going, 919 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 1: as I guess, a slightly different direction, but it just 920 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,960 Speaker 1: shows that like the these human people that are so 921 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,120 Speaker 1: connected to so many other things happening, like you're no 922 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,920 Speaker 1: one's just a hero. You know. Sometimes you're someone who 923 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: got beat up by the cops and decided, Okay, well 924 00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna keep going. I'm going to force this system 925 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: to change because it's not fair. Starting with the Starbucks 926 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,560 Speaker 1: and Buffalo in Starbucks, barristas have been unionizing across the 927 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: country in states like California and Utah, and a lot 928 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,000 Speaker 1: of this energy is being sparked by a new generation 929 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,960 Speaker 1: younger folks. Seventies seven percent of young adults support unions, 930 00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,840 Speaker 1: according to a September Gallop Pole and have to say 931 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: that feels pretty darn hopeful were in this moment where 932 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,520 Speaker 1: it feels like a lot of big wins for labor, 933 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,399 Speaker 1: you know, the first Starbucks munizing, you know, the JFK eight. 934 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,719 Speaker 1: I'm seeing a lot of interesting chatter about unions on 935 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,000 Speaker 1: places like TikTok where younger folks hang out, like gen Z, 936 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,040 Speaker 1: so they're really fire up about unions. Are you hopeful 937 00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,960 Speaker 1: that we're entering this new era of union power? I 938 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: am always hopeful to the point of almost being a 939 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,239 Speaker 1: Pollyanna about these things. Um, And that's I think that is. 940 00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,440 Speaker 1: It is definitely a conscious decision to be hopeful and 941 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,399 Speaker 1: be optimistic because the labor movement has kind of been 942 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: in decline since really before I was born, and I'm 943 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,680 Speaker 1: thirty four, so I guess, like the the entirety that 944 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,080 Speaker 1: I have been on this earth, the numbers of union 945 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,040 Speaker 1: density have been falling. You know, anti union legislation has 946 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,839 Speaker 1: been cutting us off at the knees. There have been 947 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 1: all of these factors like manufacturing. Laura knows what happened. 948 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 1: They're like, there've been all these factors kind of pulling 949 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 1: the move meant out of the movement, like kind of 950 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: good damp, putting a damper on things will say, and 951 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: you know, facts aren't always fun numbers are not always fun, 952 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 1: especially when you're looking at your density. But we are 953 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,240 Speaker 1: in a moment where, like you said, specifically, the younger 954 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,400 Speaker 1: generation is interested and fired up and paying attention. And 955 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,239 Speaker 1: not only are they paying attention, they're doing something. They're organizing. 956 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,479 Speaker 1: I mean the Starbucks workers and Amazon workers like those 957 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,360 Speaker 1: are younger people. Like not only are the younger people, 958 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,239 Speaker 1: they're queer at transit, black and brown immigrant workers, like 959 00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,799 Speaker 1: workers from these marginalized backgrounds that have always formed the 960 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,720 Speaker 1: backbone and the labor movement but have not necessarily gotten 961 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,200 Speaker 1: their do like these are the workers propelling things forward, 962 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:45,360 Speaker 1: and that is important and significance. And even some of 963 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,800 Speaker 1: the conversation I've seen, like on TikTok and other places 964 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,520 Speaker 1: where maybe a traditional labor union isn't the answer for 965 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,759 Speaker 1: some specific groups of people, that doesn't mean that then 966 00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,400 Speaker 1: thinking about it is inconsequential. That doesn't mean they're going 967 00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:00,320 Speaker 1: to find a different way to order and eyes and 968 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,440 Speaker 1: find a different way to harness the labor. Like I 969 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 1: got to email from a person actually get them back, 970 00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,960 Speaker 1: um about a bunch of independent sellers on Etsy who 971 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,239 Speaker 1: want to form an independent Seller's guild and that isn't 972 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,080 Speaker 1: That is very interesting, Like I need to do a 973 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,320 Speaker 1: little bit of reading to figure out what to tell them, 974 00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,640 Speaker 1: because like that's kind of a whole bunch of small 975 00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,440 Speaker 1: business owners coming together and they want to organize against 976 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,719 Speaker 1: this bigger company that they are kind of in dialogue with. 977 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,640 Speaker 1: Like that is not like that's tricky, that's a little complicated, 978 00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,800 Speaker 1: but it's very interesting, Like that is not something that 979 00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:35,759 Speaker 1: would have happened five years ago, or maybe even a 980 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 1: couple of years ago. Like all of these new organizing 981 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,400 Speaker 1: wins and some of the setbacks and some of the losses, 982 00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,520 Speaker 1: like that is all working in concert to get people 983 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:48,480 Speaker 1: excited and give people an option, because I think a 984 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,280 Speaker 1: lot of folks for a very long time have maybe 985 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,000 Speaker 1: either felt or been made to feel like the labor 986 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,400 Speaker 1: movement isn't for them, like unions aren't for them. Like 987 00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,319 Speaker 1: back when I was advice, when someone asked me if 988 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,279 Speaker 1: I want to unionize, I was like, we can that, 989 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,680 Speaker 1: like we were we were in Williamsburg, Like there's Kampucha 990 00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:08,880 Speaker 1: and the friends. Like really, like my dad's operating engineer, 991 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,640 Speaker 1: I can be in the same movement as him, and 992 00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,400 Speaker 1: I could, and so can anyone else. There are a 993 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 1: lot of ways to form a union, a lot of 994 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,080 Speaker 1: ways to organize with your co workers and build power. 995 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,839 Speaker 1: And I think this current generation, and gosh, it feels 996 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:24,520 Speaker 1: so basic, feel so old to say that. I'm like, 997 00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:27,279 Speaker 1: not old, I promise, but definitely people younger than me 998 00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 1: are doing really big things. And I don't think that's 999 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,719 Speaker 1: gonna stop. Like I know that Amazon and Stopbucks are 1000 00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:36,360 Speaker 1: going to pull out every stop and use every nefarious 1001 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,319 Speaker 1: legal means and probably extra legal means they can think 1002 00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:41,319 Speaker 1: of to try and slow this way down and try 1003 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,719 Speaker 1: to you know, stave off union negotiations and put a 1004 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 1: stop to this. But I don't think you can put 1005 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,640 Speaker 1: that lightning back in the bottle. And I think if started, 1006 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,120 Speaker 1: those big corporations keep actively trying to bust up these 1007 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: unions and break down these organized their spirits like they're 1008 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,320 Speaker 1: gonna be consequences. You can't be a big quote unquote 1009 00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: progressive company and be a union buster and have anyone 1010 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 1: take you seriously. Like, I think the tide has turned 1011 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,960 Speaker 1: in a very real way. And I'm sure that there 1012 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: are labor stories an economists who would have a whole 1013 00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,719 Speaker 1: bunch of like you know, like my broader perspective at 1014 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,600 Speaker 1: numbers and have a lot of things to say about that. 1015 00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,520 Speaker 1: But as someone who's just like studied unions a lot 1016 00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,239 Speaker 1: and talked to a lot of workers, and it's very 1017 00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,040 Speaker 1: excited about unions in general. Like it feels like a 1018 00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,280 Speaker 1: very cool time to be alive, to be paying attention. 1019 00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:31,560 Speaker 1: And I am so grateful to those younger workers who 1020 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:33,879 Speaker 1: are kind of pushing the movement in this direction where 1021 00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,480 Speaker 1: it's needed to go for so long. I love it. 1022 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,520 Speaker 1: I love it. I love a helpful ending. I'm just 1023 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,799 Speaker 1: I believe that we will win, even if it's after 1024 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:47,319 Speaker 1: I'm dead. Kim, Where can people keep up with all 1025 00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,400 Speaker 1: the amazing worker up to you? And get the book 1026 00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,040 Speaker 1: so you can buy the book anywhere? I mean fun Amazon, 1027 00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 1: but if you got it, you can get it on Amazon. 1028 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,640 Speaker 1: But I always tell people to uh if you can 1029 00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,680 Speaker 1: either order from like bookshop or Indie Bound or like 1030 00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,440 Speaker 1: a dependent bookstore, or get it from the library. Like 1031 00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,520 Speaker 1: the library changed my life. I wouldn't be here without it, 1032 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,719 Speaker 1: So if the library hasn't, just get it there. I 1033 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,759 Speaker 1: don't care. I just want you to read it. And 1034 00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,600 Speaker 1: I am aggressively online. I am on Twitter at Groom 1035 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:16,400 Speaker 1: Kim and on Instagram is Kim Kelly writer, and I 1036 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,120 Speaker 1: have a Patreon thing. I think it's just Kim Kelly 1037 00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:21,800 Speaker 1: and um, I'm yeah, I'm too old for TikTok and 1038 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,440 Speaker 1: all that, but maybe if I figure it out you can. 1039 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,080 Speaker 1: Hopefully you'll find me on there. But ye give me 1040 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: a little time. My thirties man of Falling Apart? Awesome? 1041 00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: Is there anything that I did not ask that you 1042 00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:35,920 Speaker 1: want to make sure it gets included? Mmmm? This is incredible. 1043 00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:37,719 Speaker 1: But I guess the last thing I will say is 1044 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:41,239 Speaker 1: that I hope I wrote this book for workers and 1045 00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,520 Speaker 1: for regular people to read on their breaks or on 1046 00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:46,520 Speaker 1: the bus or when you get home from a long day, 1047 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,560 Speaker 1: to pick it up and page through it and hopefully 1048 00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,120 Speaker 1: find people on the pages that ring true to you. 1049 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,680 Speaker 1: I want people to see themselves in this book and 1050 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,600 Speaker 1: to recognize that they are part of this incredible history 1051 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,640 Speaker 1: and they're part of the future too, Like the labor 1052 00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:05,160 Speaker 1: movement has always belonged to all of us, whether or 1053 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,640 Speaker 1: not the people empowered who wanted us to recognize that, 1054 00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:10,239 Speaker 1: And the only way we're going to get closer to 1055 00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,920 Speaker 1: being free is by working together and recognizing that power 1056 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:20,239 Speaker 1: and fighting like hell to take what's ours. If you're 1057 00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:22,359 Speaker 1: looking for ways to support the show, check out our 1058 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:26,160 Speaker 1: March store at tangodi dot com Slash Store. Got a 1059 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,279 Speaker 1: story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want 1060 00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,239 Speaker 1: to say hi, You can reach us at Hello at 1061 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,000 Speaker 1: tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's 1062 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,440 Speaker 1: episode at tangdi dot com. There Are No Girls on 1063 00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:37,800 Speaker 1: the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a 1064 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,120 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio and Unboss Creative edited by Joey 1065 00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,960 Speaker 1: pat Jonathan Strickland as our exegative producer. Terry Harrison is 1066 00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,600 Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amata was our contributing producer. 1067 00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,000 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Bridget Toad. If you want to help 1068 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,120 Speaker 1: us grow, rate and review us on our Apple podcasts. 1069 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,280 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart 1070 00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,880 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. 1071 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,719 Speaker 1: It not have to will whi