1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday everyone. Today we are going back to eleven 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: for Sarah and Deblina's episode on Rosalind Franklin and her 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: research into the structure of DNA and why for a 4 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 1: long time that work went unrecognized. Enjoying, Welcome to stuff 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: you missed in history class, the production of I Heart 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: Radios How Stuff Works. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: I'm Deblin a chalkateboarding and I'm and even if you're 8 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: not a science person at all, you probably know something 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: about d n A. That's stuff in our cells that 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: carries the cells genetic information and basically determines all of 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: our individual hereditary characteristics, hair color, eye color, the whole deal. 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: So if you watch TV, you probably know at least 13 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: that much. But most of us probably have at least 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: touched on the subject in high school too, or will 15 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: touch on it in high school. Will not to rule 16 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,959 Speaker 1: out our younger listeners, and we recognize what DNA looks like, 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: that unmistakable double helix that looks like a twisting ladder 18 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: or a spiral staircase. I remember actually modeling it in 19 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: middle school cleaners. So maybe some of our younger listeners 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: already knew well the people credited and most high school 21 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,639 Speaker 1: and middle school textbooks, at least when I was in school, 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: which admittedly was a while ago. Um, the people credited 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: with discovering the structure of DNA are James Watson and 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: Francis Crick. That's one of those associations that kind of 25 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: has stuck in my mind over the years. You know, 26 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: it's like Darwin and natural selection and Watson and Crick 27 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: in DNA. And after all, they, along with Maurice Wilkins, 28 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: received the Nobel Prize in Medicine for this discovery in 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, so it makes sense that their names 30 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: would be most associated with this accomplishment. But especially in 31 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: recent years, some more attention has been paid to someone 32 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,559 Speaker 1: else who may deserve a great deal of the credit 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: for the discovery of DNA structure, and that's a British 34 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: physical chemist named Rosalind Franklin. So Franklin's involvement in this 35 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: DNA to discovery has caused quite a bit of controversy 36 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: in the science world for a number of reasons. So 37 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: number one, it's without question that her research played a 38 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: really big role in helping suss out DNA's structure. But 39 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: because She died four years before Watson, Crick, and Wilkins 40 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,559 Speaker 1: even received the Nobel Prize. The prize only honors living scientists, 41 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: so she sat for this year except for this year. 42 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: Except for this year. There was Ralph Steinman. Did you 43 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: hear about that? He won the prize for medicine? And 44 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: I think the announcement was made three days after his death. 45 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: So they went ahead, and they went ahead and let 46 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: it stand because they had made the decision before they 47 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: even knew he was dead. So so well then up 48 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: until the until then. Um so yeah, they are more 49 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: associated with it because they won the award for it, 50 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: and Watson and Crick's famous nineteen fifty three paper detailing 51 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: their discoveries in the journal Nature, they only gave Franklin 52 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: the tiniest credit, and so consequently she's virtually or has 53 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: been virtually unknown for this accomplished. That's the second reason. 54 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: And then the third is in his nineteen sixty eight 55 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: but chronicling the discovery called the double helix. Appropriately enough, 56 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 1: Watson noted the role Franklin's research played and also revealed 57 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: that it played a role without Franklin's knowledge. That's a 58 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: pretty big one there, sketchy, so you can see where 59 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: the controversy comes in. This revelation raised a number of questions. 60 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: For instance, did Watson and Crick steal Franklin's research and 61 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: if they didn't, would she have figured it out? Would 62 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: she have figured out DNA structure on her own? So 63 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: we're going to address these questions and more as we 64 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: take a look at what really went down in England 65 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty three when this particular discovery was made. 66 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: But first we're going to take a look at another 67 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: relevant question here. Who was Rosalind Franklin really So in 68 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: Watson's book The Double Helix, he kind of dissed Franklin 69 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: a little bit, basically depicted her as stubborn and hard 70 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: to work with, an unfeminine, but other people who knew 71 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: her really characterized her in a different way. What we 72 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: do know personality aside, is that she had a passion 73 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: for science from the very start. She was born Rosalind 74 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: Elsie Franklin in London, England, on July and of course, 75 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: most girls around that time were expected to have very 76 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: few goals outside of becoming successful wives and mothers. But 77 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: Franklin's parents, Ellis Franklin, and Muriel Walie Franklin were more 78 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: progressive and really encouraged their daughter academically. They even enrolled 79 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: young Franklin in the St. Paul's School for Girls, which 80 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: was one of the few schools at the time that 81 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: offered physics and chemistry lessons to female students. And Franklin 82 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: really excelled in these courses, and she decided by the 83 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: age of fifteen that she really wanted a career in science, 84 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: even though her parents wanted her to pursue social work instead. 85 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: So she enrolled Newnham College at the University of Cambridge 86 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty eight and was one of only five 87 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: hundred women in a class of more than five thousand. 88 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: She earned a bachelor's degree in Natural sciences with a 89 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: specialty in physical chemistry in nineteen forty one. And we 90 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: should stop here for just one second, when we have 91 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: noted her scientific achievements or her initial ones, to give 92 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: a little disclaimer and say that we are not scientists 93 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: here and do not have degrees in science, so we're 94 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: going to be kind of vague about some of the 95 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: concepts that we explain here, and hopefully listeners will forgive 96 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: us for that well, And part of it too, is 97 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: to focus on the people in the story involved, because 98 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: story sometimes if you get to bog down in the 99 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 1: other details, you miss out on some of that. Y'all 100 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: can easily find out scientific details on this. So continuing 101 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: on with Franklin's life. After earning her bachelor's degree, she 102 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: got a research scholarship in the study of gas phase 103 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: chromatography with the chemist Ronald G. W. Norrish, who was 104 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: a future Nobel Prize winner himself. But the progression of 105 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: World War Two and the fact that Franklin found Nourish 106 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: kind of difficult to work with, changed her course of 107 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: study a little bit. According to Encyclopedia Britannica, she served 108 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: as an air raid warden in London and also left 109 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: her job with Nourrish in nineteen forty two to do 110 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: war related work as a researcher with the British Coal 111 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 1: Utilization Research Association that's kind of a mouthful in southern England, 112 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: and while she was there she worked on studying the 113 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: physical chemistry of carbon and coal, and the work she 114 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: did ultimately led to some really enlightening ideas about coal structure. 115 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: So a little bit of foreshadowing almost of work she'd 116 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: do later. She also learned the basics of molecular biology 117 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: and crystallography while she was there, and her work earned 118 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: her a PhD from Cambridge in nineteen forty five. She 119 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,679 Speaker 1: also authored five coal related papers that are still cited today. 120 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: Before nineteen forty nine, According to an article by Lynn 121 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: Osmond Elkin in Physics Today, Franklin's papers quote changed the 122 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: way physical chemists of view the micro structure of coals 123 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: and related substances. So Franklin's work, in addition to getting 124 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: some praise by current scientists, got her another job offer. 125 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: In she moved to Paris to work at the Central 126 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: Laboratory of Chemical Services, where under Jacques Marrying, she learned 127 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: to use a technique called X ray diffraction when working 128 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: with crystalline matter like coal. And just to give you 129 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: a basic rundown of that, X ray diffraction allows scientists 130 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: to see the three dimensional structures of molecules by blasting 131 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: a crystal with X ray, so the rays bounce off 132 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: the atoms and diffract in different directions, and the escaping 133 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: X rays exposed photographic film to create this kind of 134 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: shadow of the molecule, and then scientists interpret the photo 135 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: to reveal the molecule shape and its measurements, and you know, 136 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: allows them to look at it on a closer level. 137 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: So Franklin used these techniques to discover a lot of 138 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: details about the structure of carbon, even as it's heated 139 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: and changes into other forms. They're not just carbon in 140 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: a static state, but transforming. So Franklin was doing good 141 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: work in Paris, and by most accounts, the three years 142 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: or so that she was there were the happiest ones 143 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: of her life. According to that Physics Today article by Elkin, 144 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: Franklin had friends in her Paris lab and would hang 145 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: out with them sometimes do things like going hiking, and 146 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: she became fluent in French and skilled in French cooking, 147 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: and just became really comfortable with her life there. It 148 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: provides a really stark contrast for the next period of 149 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: her life that we're going to talk about, the one 150 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: in which DNA takes center stage. So now that I've 151 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: set that up, I should go right and telling you 152 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: all about it, I guess. So, even though Franklin was 153 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: happy in Paris, she got lured away by the offer 154 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: of a research fellowship from Sir John T. Randall's medical 155 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: research Council at King's College in London, and also the 156 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: chance to work on one of the major scientific challenges 157 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: of the moment, figuring out the structure and function of DNA, 158 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: and Randall especially wanted Franklin to use the X ray 159 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: diffraction techniques that she had mastered to produce diffraction pictures 160 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: of d N A. But when Randall brought her in, 161 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: Maurice Wilkins, a British biophysicist who had been working in 162 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: the same lab on the same project, was not happy 163 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 1: to have her around. They didn't work well together and 164 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: ended up disliking each other the entire time. They worked 165 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: together pretty much right off the bat, yeah, and biographers 166 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: have had a hard time figuring out why exactly Wilkins 167 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: and Franklin didn't get along. Somethink it's because he happened 168 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: to be a way traveling when Franklin got hired and 169 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: started her job, so when he returned, Wilkins originally thought 170 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: that she was working for him. Another point of contention 171 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: is that Franklin, of course had other ideas. She knew 172 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: she wasn't gonna be working for Wilkins, she assumed that 173 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: she'd be working independently. She thought she was the bosson 174 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: page exactly, so they both had flicting ideas of who 175 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: is boss. And she also had more experience with X 176 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: ray diffraction techniques of course, I mean that was why 177 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: she was brought in in the first place and kind 178 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: of forged ahead and took the lead with that, so 179 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: Wilkins might have felt that his project was being taken 180 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: away from him to some degree. Franklin was also said 181 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: to have a very serious, direct, and even argumentative style 182 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: when it came to her work, and Wilkins did not 183 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 1: take well to this. It said that when she argued 184 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: with him, he would really just shut down and kind 185 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: of give her the silent treatment. He just wouldn't respond, 186 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: So they didn't have a functioning relationship, not at all. 187 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: So this rivalry is probably one of the main reasons 188 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: that Franklin was so unhappy at King's College, and some 189 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: have theorized that her unhappiness was also related to sexism 190 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: towards female employees at Kings, saying that women weren't even 191 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: allowed to eat lunch in the same dining rooms as men. 192 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: But there's been some new ideas on that theory. Yeah, 193 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you see that mentioned a lot the whole 194 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: lunching that they were excluded somehow from eating lunch with 195 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: their fellow scientists. But researchers such as Random Attics, a 196 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: Franklin biographer, have found in recent years that the working 197 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: environment at King's College was actually more welcoming to female 198 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: scientists than some have portrayed it to be. They actually 199 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: did get to eat lunch in the same room. So 200 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: Maddox thinks that Franklin's class and religion she was Jewish 201 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: and came from a wealthy family, may have actually made 202 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: her feel more out of place than anything else. And 203 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: though her demeanor in the lab was serious and sometimes abrasive, 204 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: many of her colleagues remember her as being witty, bright, interesting, 205 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: even fun in the lab, though of course Franklin was 206 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: all business and her rivalry with Wilkins didn't stop her 207 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: from investigating DNA fibers at all. Pretty soon after she 208 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: got to King's College, Franklin, working along with a student 209 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: named Raymond Gosling, managed to get some preliminary diffraction images 210 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: of a DNA molecule as it transformed from its dry 211 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: crystalline form, which she called the A form, to the 212 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: wet B form through an increase in relative humidity and 213 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: from this. From this observation, Franklin determined that the phosphate 214 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: groups that make up the backbone of DNA run along 215 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: the outside of the molecule, one of her first milestones 216 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: in determining the structure of DNA, because previously people had 217 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 1: thought that they were on the inside yes, and that 218 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: the bases were on the outside. So this was kind 219 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: of a major discovery for her. So in November of 220 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty one, Franklin gave a talk in London about 221 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: her latest findings and American scientist James Watson was in attendance. 222 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: Watson and then graduate student Francis Crick had also been 223 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: working on figuring out DNA structure at another Medical Research 224 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: Council unit at Cavendish Laboratory and Cambridge, but they weren't 225 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: doing it by experimenting and collecting data. They were doing 226 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: it through deduction and model building. So when Watson heard 227 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: Franklin's talk, he didn't really take notes and he misinterpreted 228 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: her results, but still related what he'd heard incorrectly of course, 229 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: to Crick, and they used that info to slap together 230 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: a quick model with the sugar phosphate backbone on the inside. 231 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: So about a week after the talk, Franklin and Wilkins 232 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: visited Cambridge to check out Watson and Crick's model. As 233 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: soon as Franklin saw it, she immediately realized their mistake 234 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: and pointed out that the phosphate group should be on 235 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: the outside. And this experience probably just confirmed for Franklin 236 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: that careful and diligent experimentation was much more valuable than 237 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: making intuitively rash model building. So after this messo, Watson 238 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: and Crick were actually told to refrain from DNA modeling 239 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: for a while, like just take a take a focus 240 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: on proteins exactly. So Franklin continued to approach her DNA 241 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: experiments with that methodical research base manner, and they helped 242 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: her determine DNA's density, its unit cell size, water content, 243 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 1: inner phosphate distances, and other really precise kind of calculations. 244 00:13:57,920 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: And the one point she got a little bit tied 245 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: up on there was DNA's helical shape. So some scientists, 246 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: including her rival Wilkins, were convinced that DNA shape was 247 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: helical before they had any proof of it. But as 248 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: we kind of mentioned, that wasn't Franklin's style at all. 249 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: She needed to prove it through experimentation. She needed to 250 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: observe it. Yeah, this was tough, though partly because she 251 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: was so methodical in her research. She started out by 252 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 1: focusing on the diffraction image of DNA's crystalline A form, 253 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: in which it was much harder to discern that helical shape. 254 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: So at one point, after obtaining some data from the 255 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: A form which suggested that DNA was non helical, she 256 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: actually created this death of the helix funeral invitation in 257 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: July ninety two, and some kind of see this as 258 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: evidence that Franklin was on the wrong track and figuring 259 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: out DNA structure. Others, including Elkin in her Physics Today article, 260 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: note that it was a joke mainly directed at Wilkins, 261 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: and we actually, I think you ought to read a 262 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: little bit. Yeah. We we have a copy of this 263 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: funeral invitation. It's it's quite interesting. It says written by 264 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: hand to own by hand. It says, it is with 265 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: great regret that we have to announce the death on 266 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: Friday eighteenth, July fifty two of DNA helix parentheses. Crystalline 267 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: death followed a protracted illness which an intensive course of 268 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: injections has failed to relieve. A memorial service will be 269 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: held next Monday or Tuesday. It is hoped that Dr M. H. F. 270 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: Wilkins will speak in memory of the late Helix and 271 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: then it signed with her name. I mean, I think 272 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: this certainly proves that she had a sense of humor. Yes, 273 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: for sure. So. Franklin's personal notebooks, as well as information 274 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: provided by Raymond Godling, indicated that she believed the B 275 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: form to be Heli goal. But before she could get 276 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: all of her conclusions together, something truly unexpected happened. Wilkins 277 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: and Watson had captain touch and actually became pretty close 278 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: after that meeting where they viewed Watson and cricks incorrect model, 279 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: and in January of nineteen fifty three, Watson came to 280 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: King's College to visit with Wilkins, and Wilkins showed him 281 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: the now famous diffraction photo of the B form of 282 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: DNA that Franklin had taken in May of nineteen fifty two, 283 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: and that photo, which was known as Photo fifty one, 284 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: was revolutionary because it was the best photo of its 285 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: kind at the time, and Franklin took the photo looking 286 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: down on the DNA molecule, and what appeared was this 287 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: very distinct ex pattern, which was of course clear evidence 288 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: that the molecule was helical. So Franklin had apparently put 289 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: the photo in a drawer while she focused on the 290 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: A form, and while it was in that drawer, Wilkins 291 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: was able to access it. Some sources even suggest that 292 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: he had been making copies of all of her research 293 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: to keep her from getting ahead of him in a way, 294 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: And when he showed Watson Photo fifty one, though Watson 295 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: and Crick were the ones who instantly hold ahead in 296 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: the double helix, Watson describes his reaction to the photo. 297 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: He says, quote the instant I saw the picture of 298 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 1: my mouth fell open and my pulse began to race. 299 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 1: The pattern was unbelievably simpler than those obtained previously, and 300 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: Maurice told me he was now quite convinced that she, 301 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: meaning Franklin, was correct. And Watson immediately rushed back to 302 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: Cambridge to tell Krick what he'd seen. And meanwhile, Chrick 303 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: had obtained a copy of a nineteen fifty two Medical 304 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: Research Council report which contained a section including some of 305 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: Franklin's data. So with these two sources of information, they 306 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: were able to start creating a correct model within about 307 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: a week's time, and then in April of nineteen fifty three, 308 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 1: they published one of the best known scientific papers of 309 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: the century, called a Structure for deoxy ribos Nucleic Acid 310 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: in the journal Nature, and in it they described their 311 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: double helix DNA molecular model, with its complementary double strands 312 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: forming the sides of a twisting ladder and basses forming 313 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: the runs of that ladder, and Franklin and Gosling revised 314 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: a draft of their own to appear along with Watson 315 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: and Cricks, but partly because of the placement it received 316 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: in the journal, it seemed to just support Watson and 317 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: Crick's findings, even though her research was a huge, if 318 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: not the main reason why their paper existed in the 319 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: first place. Franklin only received one line of acknowledgment in 320 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: that nineteen fifty three Watson and Crick paper. In his 321 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: Noble Prize acceptance speech in nineteen sixty two, Wilkins only 322 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: mentioned her after thanking thirteen other colleagues by name. Watson 323 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: and Krick didn't mention her at all. So this is 324 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: where the controversy begins, and a lot of people wonder 325 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: whether Franklin would have reached the same conclusions as Watson 326 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: and Kryck did on her own eventually, and a lot 327 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: of people think that, yes, she would have. For one thing, 328 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: unpublished drafts of her paper and information in her note 329 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 1: suggests that she was close to getting the same results, 330 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 1: and Krick even said in nineteen seventy four that she 331 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: was only two steps away from the solution. In an 332 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: excerpt from his memoir Avoid Boring People that was published 333 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,479 Speaker 1: in Technology Review a few years ago, Watson said, quote, 334 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: Rosalind Franklin would have seen the double helix first, had 335 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 1: she seen fit to enter the model building race and 336 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: been better able to interact with other scientists. He also 337 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: told Scientific American quote, We're very famous because DNA is 338 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: very famous. If Rosalind had talked to Francis starting in 339 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty one, shared her data with him, she would 340 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,959 Speaker 1: have solved that structure, and then she would have been 341 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: the famous one. They did give her credit here and there, though, 342 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: of course there was Watson's book that we mentioned the 343 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: double helix, which reveals everything. But according to a two 344 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: thousand three article in Wilson Quarterly, as soon as nineteen 345 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: fifty four, Crick had stated quote, without Franklin's data, the 346 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: formulation of our structure would have been most unlikely, if 347 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: not impossible. Some take this as evidence that Franklin must 348 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: have known about the fact Watson saw Photo fifty one, 349 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: but others think that, knowing her personality and how feisty 350 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: she could be, if she had known that they had 351 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: seen it without her permission, she would have been very angry. Ultimately, 352 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: Franklin's biographer Matic says there's no real evidence that she 353 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: knew what research of hers Watson and Creek had obtained, 354 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: so that part still kind of a mystery. What we 355 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: really know, though, is that Franklin didn't seem too troubled 356 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: about losing the race to discover the structure of DNA, 357 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: probably because she didn't consider herself in that race in 358 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 1: the first place. For her, it had all been about 359 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: discovering the truth. So Franklin was of course eager to 360 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: get out of King's College, considering how unhappy she was there, 361 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 1: and she did that, but the spring off three, around 362 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: the same time that the Nature article was published, she 363 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: ended up taking a position working in the crystallography laboratory 364 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: at Birkbeck College in London, and it's there that she 365 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: began to work primarily on investigating the structure of the 366 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: tobacco mosaic virus. She published seventeen papers while she was there, 367 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: including four in Nature, and she was much happier professionally. 368 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the fact that she published seventeen 369 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: papers shows this wasn't a woman to dwell on not 370 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: getting credit for something that happened in the past. She 371 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: was looking forward definitely. And incidentally, we should mention that 372 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: when she left King's College, Randall basically told her you 373 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: cannot work on DNA anymore. So it's not like she 374 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: just gave it up. I mean, she might have just 375 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: given it up anyway, but she wasn't allowed to work 376 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: on it officially. In nineteen fifty six, she was diagnosed 377 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: with ovarian cancer. There was cancer in her family history, 378 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: but it also probably had a lot to do with 379 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: her work with X rays, during which she didn't ever 380 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: wear a lead apron or anything to protect herself, and 381 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 1: she often had to enter the radiation being for extended 382 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,239 Speaker 1: periods to position specimens, so she just didn't realize at 383 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: the time how harmful it would be. It was and 384 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: we've talked a little bit about that before and the 385 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: Radium Girls episode exactly so ironically, during the last years 386 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: of Glinn's life, though, she became friends with Watson and Crick, 387 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: even convalescing at Krick's home once after one of her 388 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: cancer treatments, and according to that Wilson Quarterly article, Krick 389 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: once said that they never discussed the subject of the 390 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: race to find DNA structure. I mean, I don't know 391 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: if what you're suspicious of. I'm I'm a little suspicious 392 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: of that. I mean, I can imagine why it would 393 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: be a taboo topic between these people. You don't really 394 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: want to bring it up, perhaps especially if you're trying 395 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: to be friends. But exactly, but I mean, I do 396 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 1: I do wonder what what they really talked about, and 397 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: if she wanted to know how they got the information 398 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: or anything like them. I guess we'll never know. Franklin 399 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: died at the age of thirty seven on April sixteenth, 400 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight, and there have been at least a 401 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: couple of biographies written about her, and a documentary done 402 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: on her that was aired on PBS called The Secret 403 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: of Photo fifty one, and there are also a couple 404 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: of institutions that have named buildings after her, including King's 405 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: College and Birkbeck College, And interestingly enough, Kings is called 406 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,719 Speaker 1: the Franklin Wilkins Building, So she's kind of paired up 407 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 1: with her. Yes, So I don't know. I think a 408 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: good thing to point out here is that by by 409 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: talking about Franklin, we're not trying to diminish any of 410 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 1: the other's accomplishments. Obviously, we think Watson and crit contributed 411 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: a lot to this, and without their modeling, no how 412 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have come up with DNA structure, and who 413 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: knows what would have happened. I mean, everyone here deserves 414 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: a little bit of credit. But I think that was 415 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: kind of the point, is that there's enough recognition to 416 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: go around. Well, in DNA is such a huge discovery, 417 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: such a huge accomplishment, there is plenty of room for 418 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: for four people. Yes, and um Watson did kind of 419 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: relent on his earlier feelings about Franklin later in his 420 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: epilogue to his book, he did say, quote, since my 421 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: initial impressions of her, both scientific and personal, as recorded 422 00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: in the early pages of this book, and of course 423 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: referring to the double Helix, We're often wrong. I want 424 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: to say something here about her achievements, and then he 425 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: says that he and Krik both came to appreciate her 426 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: personal honesty and generosity, realizing years too late the struggles 427 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: that the intelligent woman faces to be accepted by a 428 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: scientific world which often regards women as mere diversions from 429 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: serious thinking. So I don't think we could put it 430 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: any better than not enough. Thank you so much for 431 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: joining us on this Saturday. If you have heard an 432 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: email address or a Facebook you are l or something 433 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: similar over the course of today's episode, since it is 434 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: from the archive that might be out of date. Now, 435 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: you can email us at History podcast at how stuff 436 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: Works dot com, and you can find us all over 437 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: social media at missed in History. And you can subscribe 438 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: to our show on Apple podcasts, Google podcast, the I 439 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, and wherever else you listen to podcasts. 440 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: Stuff you Missed in History classes a production of I 441 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts for my 442 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 1: heart radio, visit the heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or 443 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H