1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties, weekly podcast featuring conversations with 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Variety. Today, my 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: guest is Jessica Lesson, Founder and editor in chief of 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: The Information. The Information is a subscription online publication that 6 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: has distinguished itself for its deep dive reporting, analysis, and 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: scoops about the media and tech landscape. Lesson is the 8 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: sole owner and sol financier of the business. While working 9 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: as a reporter for The Well Street Journal, she saw 10 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: an opening in the journalism market for more thoughtful, long 11 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: form reporting. Her instincts meant that she has been in 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 1: the business of launching a subscription business, just as the 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: company she covers went headlong into the subscription direct to 14 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: consumer arena. Jessica offers insights on what she's learned along 15 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: the way, and she offers her perspective on what's ahead 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: for Silicon Valley stalwarts including Facebook, Google and TikTok. Jessica Lesson, 17 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: founder and editor in chief of The Information, thank you 18 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: so much for joining us today. I'm very happy to 19 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: be here. Thanks for chatting. When we set this up 20 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,960 Speaker 1: it occurred to me that you're in a very interesting 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: position because you have been You have been an entrepreneur 22 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: who has launched a digital subscription business at a time 23 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 1: when a lot of the big media and big tech 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: companies that your company covers are also doing the same. 25 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: And I would love your perspective on somebody that has 26 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: been literally trying to grow a subscription business from the grassroots. 27 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: What you've learned over the past is it almost eight 28 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: years now since you launched in position, what you've learned 29 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: over the past eight years about what it takes too 30 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: attract subscribers, retain subscribers. What is the sort of secret 31 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: sauce as it were in the subscription game? Absolutely? Yeah, 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: I mean I guess we went d d D to 33 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: see in UM in media about eight years ago when 34 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: people probably thought we were a little bit nuts too 35 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: and UM not that we were kind of unbundling the news, 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: but we were at to some degree. But really that 37 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: focus on UM living or dying by serving subscribers and 38 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: making sure that we're our journalism is tailored to what 39 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: they need UM has been part of our DNA since 40 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: day one, and I think it's been fascinating to see 41 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: the media business UM embrace that now and really in 42 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: some ways be offended by it and in some ways 43 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: embrace it. So I think for me, the thing that 44 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: has been most essential to our growth UM has been 45 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: frankly just focus and trying to not cover every single 46 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: way bit of technology news at the moment, but really 47 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: an insight that our job is to deliver deeply reported 48 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: stories no one else is writing, and that that is enough. 49 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: Not only is that enough, but I believe deeply that 50 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: is what makes a successful media company. And I think 51 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: for us that meant breaking news about Apple and Google 52 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: and now you know, Worner Media and Quimby and all 53 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: the others. But it UM, I think it's very much 54 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: against the d n A of many media businesses, where 55 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: UM we want audience, we want to reach people. We 56 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: kind of believe bigger is better. But what I've seen 57 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: in our experience at the Information is that what drives 58 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: new subscribers retaining subscribers is really building a brand of 59 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: media that isn't all things to all people. And if 60 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: you look in entertainment, I mean I think you can 61 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: you can look at the history of Netflix and draw 62 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: many lessons right in the beginning it was library content, 63 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: but it was really very specific shows, right that that 64 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: got it going. And then it was House of Cards, right, 65 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: and it wasn't you know, it's not sports, it's not 66 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: and when we're seeing the creeping now into other categories, 67 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: but but not that much, right, compared to what you 68 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: think a company of Netflix's scale and resources could do. 69 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: And so I think it's that being focused UM and 70 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: and realizing that that is very very scalable. And you know, 71 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: recently when UM two of our reporters broke the story 72 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: that Catzenberg said he may have to shut down Quimby, 73 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: which which happened. You know, this was very top of 74 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 1: mind for me because I think Quimby was an example 75 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: of vast ambitions to really have content across a ray 76 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: of subject matters that could reach a ray of audience type. 77 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: And I think you can get there as a sort 78 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: of upstart media business at this moment. But what I 79 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: see with all the successful media companies is really earning 80 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: very very passionate audiences around very specific things. Absolutely, it 81 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: makes so much sense in the context of what we've 82 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: all been covering. And I can certainly say from a 83 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: position of great envy that you do a damn good 84 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: job of writing those stories that only of delivering the 85 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: stories that only you have, which are absolutely where news 86 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: is commoditized, you know, essentially in the digital realm, it's 87 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: that that deep reporting that nobody can match. There's nothing 88 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: more satisfying as a journalist than to hit you know, 89 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: hit published on that. Um. Let me ask you from 90 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: like a more of a business in a marketing kind 91 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: of sense, like what did you find, especially early on, 92 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: what worked to get the word out to even let 93 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: people know that this was out there? Was that word 94 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: of mouth? Was it digital marketing? Was it leaflets? Leaflets? 95 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: We haven't tried that. We we've just experimented with our 96 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: first Okay, so eight years in where we're doing some 97 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: physical media. Um, you know, from day one and until 98 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: the present, it's our growth is still primarily organic word 99 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: of mouth based on a story we publish. And I 100 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: think if you look, you know, pick a retailer, pick 101 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: a shoemaker, right, like to retail sneakers, you have to 102 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: come up with content every day to market your sneakers. 103 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: In news and media, our product is our marketing right 104 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: from a business standpoint, and what we've done over time 105 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: as we've brought on you know, best in class marketers 106 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: who can amplify that through email, UM through some sort 107 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: of paid channels as well. I think email has been UM. 108 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: You know, we see anyone knows the informations as we 109 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: send a lot of email we do. I I think, 110 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, people tell So we just done even more 111 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: from marketing standpoint, from the perspective that UM are our 112 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: readers and in our future readers are telling us that 113 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: is how they want to engage with us. UM and 114 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: so that is just an extraordinary channel. And when I 115 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 1: advise companies now building you know, startups kind of in 116 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: the subscription news space, we have a little accelerator, the 117 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: information accelerator, My advice is, you know, get the email, 118 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: get the email, Get the email. And I think in 119 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: our history we probably focused on that year two or 120 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: three UM and and you just see a sort of 121 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: hockey stick when even if they're not yeah, a subscriber, 122 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: you're capturing you know, the permission to keep communicating with them. 123 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: So that if if there was anything that really I 124 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: think unlocked a new level of growth for us in 125 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: the earlier days, that was it is there almost like 126 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: a ricochet effect like you get one email, you send 127 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: an email and you know it probably goes out to 128 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: more than more than one person in that person's network. 129 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: If again, if your product is compelling, which is which 130 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: is we track I mean sharing referrals, forwarding all of 131 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: that and I think, yeah, that that is a huge 132 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: part in getting the world that the word out. Um 133 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: and um yeah, some some companies kind of there's a 134 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: nice back and forth are unlike how much is a 135 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: subscription business? Right? What do you restrict and what do 136 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: you enamel for sampling? And um, we're always experimenting with that. 137 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: And I think all the brands I watch and subscription 138 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: media are always trying new things there too. So you 139 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: can turn on and off the paywall very easily if 140 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: you if you want, if you have something that you 141 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: think is good sampling for potential subscriber acquisition, we we 142 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: absolutely can. We don't that often. Um. I think in 143 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: this differentiates us a little bit. Um. You know, I 144 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: I don't see being subscription as just like a way 145 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: to make money. It's really a deep philosophy that goes 146 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 1: through what do we write and not right, what is 147 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: the bar for a story? You know, we charge us 148 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: a year that's the bar for a story, right, And 149 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: so I think that saying we have multiple audiences and 150 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: there's a free audience and there's a paid audience, it 151 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: muddies throughout all level of decision making, UM what your 152 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: sort of product is. And so we we've taken a 153 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: stance that you know, we're writing for our subscribers and 154 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: people who can get professional value or enough value, you know, 155 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: from what we're doing. But then we want people to 156 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: know about us. And so that's the kind of balance. 157 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: Have you disclosed the number of your number of subscribers 158 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: at this point? UM, we just say tens of thousands, 159 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: But I mean, I think it's UM. What's remarkable to 160 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: me is that it's UM. Our subscription businesses is where 161 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: we essentially forecast at last December, So UM, you know, 162 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm I'm just very very proud of the team in 163 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: terms of UM the growth we've had over this year. 164 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 1: And we've been affected in other ways and have other 165 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: revenue streams, but I think the core business UM is 166 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: just really really humming, so really excited about that. Have 167 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: you hit the magic break even point? We were break 168 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: even about two and a half years in so UM, 169 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: while UM, you know, in terms of operating the business, 170 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: I don't. It's not a hard and fast role. And 171 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 1: I'm you know, willing to invest if it's something I'm 172 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,239 Speaker 1: excited about. And I think what we've found, which UM 173 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: is probably not an approach many startups follow, but I 174 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: have found that UM, you know, the right kind of 175 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: vets and investments can often you know, make business sense 176 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: a year out or maybe eighteen months out or something 177 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: like that. And so you know, we've essentially continued to 178 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: run the business that way where UM we're investing, but 179 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: we're seeing you know, pretty quick returns UM, and I 180 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: think it's a you know it just it keeps us 181 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: focused again, particularly at a time when you can chase 182 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: no shortage of trends or things. You know. UM, at 183 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: the end of the day, thinking about the revenue and 184 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: the demand from that does keep you focused on what 185 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: you're uniquely good at. And I think we've done that. Well. 186 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: What size of an operation are you today? We are 187 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: teams about forty UM people, about half on edit, half 188 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: on the business side, engineering, product, marketing, and UM around 189 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: half of our team is usually resides in our SF 190 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: office UM, but we've been growing the team quickly also 191 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: in New York. We have about half a dozen people, UM, 192 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: Hong Kong, London, d C, Los Angeles and Seattle. So um, 193 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: we're not a totally remote team. But I think it's uh, 194 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, we now have offices in a couple of 195 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: places and UM expect to have more. And Jessica, are 196 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: you still self funding this entirely? Do you have any 197 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: have you brought in any outside investors? I haven't know. 198 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 1: That was also obviously not a path that that that 199 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: many entrepreneurs can follow, but it sounds like it mean 200 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 1: it seems like it's been important to you for your independence. 201 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: Is that yeah? Absolutely? And I you know I did 202 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: it back in the day because I was lucky and 203 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: fortunate to be able to do it, and I felt 204 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: like it would you know, set us up on a course, 205 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: um to build the right business over the long term. 206 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny, it's hard to hard to 207 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: think about eight weeks lot in eight years, but you know, 208 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: this is the era when you know, I guess a 209 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: little later you have in Reesent Horowitz pouring a ton 210 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: of money in a BuzzFeed and you have a new 211 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: kind of start up in digital media. Every six seconds 212 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: and you saw a whole wide array of vet your 213 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: capitalists and different types of interest, And I was worried 214 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: about that from day one because I think, you know, 215 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: certain types of investors, particularly venture capitalists, who want, you know, 216 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: hyperbolic returns within a pretty short time frame just is 217 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: not aligned, I think with how you build a great 218 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: media business over the long term. So UM, very fortunate 219 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: to be able to get us started, you know, as 220 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: I said about two and a half years, basically in 221 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: supporting ourselves, and I think you know, we'll we'll continue 222 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: to if there's a time to make a bigger bat 223 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: and a bigger investment, will do that and find a way. 224 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: It's very important to me that we're not um overly 225 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: conservative because um, I own the company, but I think 226 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: when I step back and I say what do I 227 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: want to invest in and how much, you know we 228 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: have the run way to do it. And I think 229 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: it's a testament to the fact that if you have 230 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: a good product, you know there is a great business, 231 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: even in in this sort of very congested time and media. Jessica, 232 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: you were a business reporter for the Wall Street Journal 233 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: and have been covering business for a while. How has 234 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: it changed your just perspective on on the things that 235 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: information covers by being an entrepreneur now yourself so many ways. Honestly, 236 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: I mean I think, um, you know, in some to 237 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: many of our readers say, oh, you know, you should 238 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: be more sympathetic now because you know so it cuts 239 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,599 Speaker 1: both ways, right, There are things where I think journalists 240 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: maybe don't have the full picture, and then there are 241 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: other things where you know, I think the opposite. But 242 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: I think for me, and I always come back to 243 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: this one as a journalist, when I saw turnover at 244 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: a company, or I saw you know, a team dynamic 245 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: around mostly turnover or something like that, I always thought 246 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: it was a really bad sign. And to be clear, 247 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: it often is, and and it it's a signal that 248 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: we absolutely used to like go behind the scenes more 249 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: into what's happening at a company. But I think, you know, 250 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: as someone who's we're in the early stages of where 251 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: we are. But we've been through many phases. You know, 252 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: I haven't gotten every hiring decision correct, shocker right, and 253 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: made mistakes and um, we've also seen, you know, the 254 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: chance to work with some incredible talent that goes on 255 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: to work at the law Street Journal and that's you know, 256 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: great for them, right, And so I think it has. 257 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: As a journalist, I did not have much visibility into 258 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: running the people side of a company. And I think, 259 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: you know, as a founder, you realize, I mean, that's 260 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: really the only side that you have to get right. Right. 261 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: If you can, I think, if you can run a 262 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: team and build a team, um, you know, that's that 263 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: will make you successful. And if you can't, you you won't. 264 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: And so I think just a different perspective on that, 265 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: UM has been something I've definitely felt wearing this hat 266 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: while still wearing my journalist hats. Yeah. No, it's a 267 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: it's a unique perspective. UM. Let's talk about some of 268 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: the big, big headline headline things right now in in 269 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: the technology world. I would love your perspective, I think, 270 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: I think for folks like me that are just a 271 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: little step removed from the heart of Silicon Valley but 272 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: still paying very close attention to those companies and trying 273 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: to understand what they want where they're going. I know 274 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: that the set that the threat of with all the 275 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: draw around Facebook and all the drama around Google and 276 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: some of the antitrust concerns that it's it's that have 277 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: been raised about about its practices. They've said, the sense 278 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: the threat that that heavy duty regulation or at least 279 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: a regulatory push is coming to some two companies that 280 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: have basically kind of operated unfettered largely unfettered too. Now, 281 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: how do you assess, like, do you think that is 282 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: there a real potential for in Biden administration for Congress 283 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: to get back together or the f SEC to really 284 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: impose some rules And do you think that's needed with that? 285 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: Would that help or hinder? Do you think so? I 286 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: think rules are definitely needed. I mean, it's I don't 287 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: think it's easy to come up with the right ones. Um. 288 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: But if you look at content moderation on the platforms, 289 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: I think the the status quo of you know, very 290 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: few individuals making just sort of decisions may be based 291 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: on booklets of policy for every edge case of you know, 292 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: what a person could say is is just not a 293 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: viable way to kind of run um, you know, these 294 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 1: major platforms just to take one of the many policy 295 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: issues right. So, um, I think you know, many people 296 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 1: are coming around to that now that the tech companies 297 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: say they're also coming around to that. And I think 298 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: they're genuine in saying that because, um, you know, you 299 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: have to remember that the biggest companies aren't usually the 300 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: ones effective by regulation because they can prepare for it 301 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: and get around it and they already have their customers 302 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: or whatever it is. Right. So, UM, I think that 303 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: you're certainly going to see a slew of of policy 304 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: proposals and you know, across the board, you know the realities. 305 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of happy people in 306 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley on election day or a few days later 307 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: because while Biden and Biden administration certainly be tough on tech, 308 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: a sort of Republican Senate, I guess we don't exactly 309 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 1: know how things will shake out, but um, you know 310 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: the senses that there's would be a very narrow window 311 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: of of legislative sort of overhauls that could happen. And 312 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: one of the ones tech companies were most concerned about 313 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: is anti trust. While you're gonna see we've seen the 314 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: d O j S, Facebook, I'm sorry, the dj S, Google. Um, 315 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: you're gonna see. You know, we know the FTC has 316 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 1: been investigating Facebook. Um, you see a slew of things. 317 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: Um in Europe, Um, it's you know, I think the 318 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: companies feel like they can largely win those cases into 319 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: the current sort of antitrust regime. UM. But again, if 320 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: you were to have those laws changed, I'll be a 321 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: different different games. So it's a strange time, you know. 322 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 1: I think there's some relief just among executives in the 323 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: very very short term, but I think a lot of 324 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 1: questions to come. Europe is you know, just sort of 325 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: coming down. We've seen action on Amazon, there's more expected 326 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: on Google all um, just just kind of slew of 327 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: things as well. So UM, I don't think, you know, 328 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: the question is this going to totally kill these companies 329 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: or is it going to fundamentally change what businesses they're in. 330 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: I think it's too early to say, and probably the 331 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,959 Speaker 1: history of watching industries at this point in regulation probably 332 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: be not. I think it ends up um affecting things 333 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: at the margins a little bit, but it's hard to see, 334 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: you know, absence something like a breakup of Facebook, which again, 335 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it's something that people have talked 336 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: about and could kind of be in the cards, but 337 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: I think no one's predicting there's a fast track to 338 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: that kind of UM action in Washington over the next 339 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: few years. You know, we can't ignore the fact that 340 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: these companies have just become you know, just kind of 341 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 1: so incredibly sticky to to under use a word, right, 342 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: so um, but I remember, and I think it was, 343 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: you know, but a few weeks ago right when you 344 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 1: saw or you can see the peak of like frustration 345 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: and anti whatever sentiment again the companies. And then they 346 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: report earnings and you know they've reached just record high 347 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: market cops, you know, blowing through just on the business side. 348 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 1: So you know, that's something we have to pay attention to. 349 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: You know, in terms of digital media and platforms, the 350 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: big story of the year has got to be TikTok. 351 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: And you know, as as this year, you know, draws 352 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: to a close, which in some in some ways it 353 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: feels like it's contain years, and in other ways it 354 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: feels like January was just yesterday. What is your prediction 355 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: for what happens with this company next year? Given the 356 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: craziness of what the Trump administration imposed and now the 357 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: transition of power. I would love your report. You know, 358 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: I have the hours that I don't want to say 359 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: that are wasted having thought about this, because now it 360 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 1: frankly looks like kind of the status quo. I mean, 361 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: I think TikTok will continue to exist, you know, owned 362 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: by byte Dance, UM perhaps you know, with ea er 363 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: sort of um, you know, having to share more details 364 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: with regulators and Siphius and just sort of all those 365 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: um security kind of protocols. UM. But you know, it's 366 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 1: a far cry right from earlier this summer when it 367 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: was going to be shut down every day and all 368 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: my friends were rapidly downloading in. They hadn't but they 369 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: wanted to see what it was like, UM. And so 370 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: it's just been such a wild ride. You know, we 371 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: UM have been covered we have ah An Asia Bureau, 372 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: and I've been covering Byte Dance, who shown TikTok and 373 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 1: TikTok for for a very long time, and actually hosted 374 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: a conference with the founder many many years ago when 375 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: he was running Totya, which was a news app that 376 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: Bye Dance owns even before it came. And so I've 377 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: always just been fascinated, um by the company. And also 378 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: because it's really you know that the fact that the 379 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: big consumer story, the big media story right was ultimately 380 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: um you know, from a from a Chinese company is 381 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: just so fascinating and so you know, I do think 382 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: that and who knows, and and Biden is has said 383 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: he's going to be tough on this as well. But 384 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: I I think, you know, the status quo is probably 385 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: a safe assumption at this point. And you know that 386 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: means UM. I think, you know, welcome and well needed 387 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: competition for for Facebook and others in the space. I think, UM, 388 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: and I think we'll see in terms of UM, you know, 389 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: where they can take it. I think TikTok has a 390 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: lot of plans around uh, integrating e commerce. UM. We 391 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: had an interview today with the CEO of Only Fans UM, 392 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: really interesting media property. Interesting guy who's UM doesn't usually 393 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: talk to the press, but I think he cited UM 394 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: the sort of monetization of creators on Only fans is 395 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: something that's making that successful. So I think you'll see 396 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: a lot more of that from TikTok. So UM, yeah, 397 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: I imagine, And there will be more twists and turns 398 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: of the story. I don't think it's over, but UM, 399 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,719 Speaker 1: in terms of I think I saw some great commentary 400 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: of like collective hours business reporters spent UM just following 401 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: the twists and turns and figuring out you know, can 402 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: the president actually get a cut of this deal? And 403 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: what's kind of going on? Um? But today right, But 404 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, I guess 405 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: they still do need a CEO, so I can probably 406 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: predict the higher CEO UM. But it's going to be 407 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: fun to watch. And the meanwhile, the parent company, which 408 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: I think is really important everyone in media and tech, 409 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: continue to watch Bite Dance you know, UM the one 410 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: of the world's most valuable private companies, if not the 411 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: depending on kind of how you count UM. You know, 412 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: headed probably for a vague I p o UM in 413 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: the next twelve months or so, so I think there'll 414 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: be some some more drama to the story. Much to watch. Well, Jessica, 415 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time and talking 416 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: us through a lot of this stuff. Your perspective from 417 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: San Francisco and as a as a digital media entrepreneur 418 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: yourself is is really unique and valuable. Thank you so 419 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: much for your time. Well, thanks for the great questions. 420 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: There's a lot going on and UM, I think it's 421 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: gonna be a fun media Thanks for listening. Be sure 422 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts. We love 423 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: to hear from listeners and don't forget to tune in 424 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: next week for another episode of Strictly Business.