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Speaker 1: Bold, reverence, and occasionally random. The Sunday Hang with Playing

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Speaker 1: podcast starts now.

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Speaker 2: We're having a very spirited discussion among the among the

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Speaker 2: team here about this vote.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: I don't care about the Travis kelce Taylor Swift relationship,

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Speaker 2: and I actually don't. I know people, I don't care

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Speaker 2: when the click, like, I really don't care. I hope

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Speaker 2: they're very happy and they have a nice I actually

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Speaker 2: route for other people to have a stable, happy, romantic lives,

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Speaker 2: and I like to see people doing well. But what's

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Speaker 2: gotten a lot of attention is that Travis kelcey who's

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Speaker 2: an NFL what is he a tight end?

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Speaker 1: That's right? Boom, good job, buddy, thank.

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Speaker 2: You, thank you, buddy.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, tight end in the football game. And uh

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Speaker 2: and you know he's shirtless on a beach with Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swift and everyone's like, oh, he doesn't look like a

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Speaker 2: professional athlete. Like like people really think that fitness or

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Speaker 2: or or being a a fit person is basically now

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Speaker 2: being a bodybuilder. And I don't think that there's really

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Speaker 2: much under I obviously I am very far from being a bodybuilder.

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Speaker 2: I do have some friends who are bodybuilders and very

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Speaker 2: into that lifestyle and that whole world, and it is

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Speaker 2: a specific thing to look like, you know, like a superhero.

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Speaker 2: Even actors when they get ready for superhero movies, they

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Speaker 2: have a very specific diet, a very specific training regimen.

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Speaker 2: It is not sustainable. And unlike NFL athletes, they are

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Speaker 2: taking performance enhancing drugs. Everyone needs to wake up. Every

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Speaker 2: action movie hero you saw in the eighties was taking steroids.

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Speaker 2: All these fitness influencers who are so incredibly jacked are

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Speaker 2: taking peptides or steroids or TRT or whatever. I'm in Miami,

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Speaker 2: so it's like the epicenter of this clay. There's all

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Speaker 2: these clinics and they're always telling you, oh, like, we'll

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Speaker 2: triple your TRT and they, I mean, they can do it.

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Speaker 2: They're injecting with the sascern. Travis Kelcey is what a

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Speaker 2: professional athlete looks like. This is what people don't or

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Speaker 2: at least a professional football player looks like at his position.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's saying he's got a dad bot. I'm like, what

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Speaker 2: I mean?

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Speaker 1: I aspire to a Travis Kelcey tad pot.

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Speaker 2: Like what are people talking about?

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Speaker 3: So I had a couple of So I told you

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Speaker 3: this yesterday. As soon as the pictures went viral, I

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Speaker 3: was like, they're gonna rip Travis kelcey because he's not

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Speaker 3: fit enough. I had a couple of reactions to it.

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Speaker 3: One and I bet almost everybody listening to us will agree.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that even if you're famous, I don't

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Speaker 3: think people should be taking photos of you at the

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Speaker 3: beach secretly when you're hanging out with your family or

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Speaker 3: you're on vacation. If you want to post photos of yourself,

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Speaker 3: I think that's different. But I'm anti like Travis kelce

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Speaker 3: Taylor Swift. She's in a bikini, as almost every thirty

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Speaker 3: something woman would be. He's in like board shorts, as

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Speaker 3: almost every already something your old guy would be. I'm

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Speaker 3: very anti. They go on vacation and there are people

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Speaker 3: snapping photos of them everywhere they go. I think that's

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Speaker 3: not normal. I think we should you know, again, if

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Speaker 3: you want to take photos yourself, and so a couple

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Speaker 3: of things on that she's getting ripped for not And

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Speaker 3: I saw her and I thought she looked phenomenal, right,

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Speaker 3: like she's in her thirties, she's in a bikini. I

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Speaker 3: thought she looked fantastic. But what percentage of people do

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Speaker 3: you think would be comfortable with a stranger, regardless of

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Speaker 3: what you do for a living, taking a photo of

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Speaker 3: you at the beach or at a pool on a

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Speaker 3: vacation and posting it on social media and allowing everybody

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Speaker 3: to react. Because I'll tell you specifically here Buck, I went,

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Speaker 3: this is funny, This is a little bit funny. But

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Speaker 3: I went to a water park with my kids in uh,

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Speaker 3: right before school started in August last year up at

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Speaker 3: the Smoky Mountains We went to like Great Smoking Mountains

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Speaker 3: water Park. Will not surprise you, A lot of people

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Speaker 3: at the Great Smoky Mountains water Park knew me right.

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Speaker 3: They're football fans. Uh, they're they're in Tennessee where I am.

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Speaker 2: I want to take photos with you when you were shirtless.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And my wife was like, uh, my wife was.

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Speaker 3: I was just like, I don't want to be getting

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Speaker 3: my pictures taken when I'm standing in line with a float,

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Speaker 3: looking fat and flabby with my kids trying to go

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Speaker 3: at a water park.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen the Nate Bargatsy bit, you know, I know,

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Speaker 2: you know it from Nashville where he says he's a

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Speaker 2: parking lot, he's in a parking lot changing his shirt

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Speaker 2: and an old man comes up to him and says, Olivia,

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Speaker 2: that's kind of That's.

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Speaker 3: Kind of how I would feel I when I see

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Speaker 3: these photos, I think we should have a national conversation.

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Speaker 3: If you want to take your own picture and post

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Speaker 3: your own picture, that's fine, But like the surreptitious secret

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Speaker 3: photos of people on family vacations.

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Speaker 2: You're like, so you don't have an expectation of privacy,

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Speaker 2: you know, you get into all this stuff. I mean, yes, Clay,

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Speaker 2: I agree. I think most people would agree. First of all,

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Speaker 2: the paparazzi thing is a fraction of what it used

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Speaker 2: to be because of social media now, so because people

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Speaker 2: post their own photos, which I think is actually positive.

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Speaker 2: The harpies of the paparazzi just constantly, you know, hovering

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Speaker 2: around people and harassing them and everything else. That's there's

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Speaker 2: far less of that now than there used to be,

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Speaker 2: just because there's so much more. You know, Kim Kardashian's

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Speaker 2: already put up ten photos of herself today. You really

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Speaker 2: need the paparazzi photo. I mean, you know, if people

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Speaker 2: it drives less clicks. But I still am focused on

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Speaker 2: the fact that people are like Travis Kelcey, Like it's

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Speaker 2: not even as though he let himself go and he's

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Speaker 2: got a gut in the off season. Like he's a lean,

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Speaker 2: strong what is he like six four six ' five,

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Speaker 2: he's a big he's thirty five years old. He is

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Speaker 2: in peak physical ability. Whatever you think about Travis Kelcey,

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Speaker 2: go run forty yards. However, if you're a guy right now,

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Speaker 2: go run forty yards as fast as you can and

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Speaker 2: see how many times you can do a forty yard sprint,

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Speaker 2: I is air twenty yard sprint. Whatever you want to say,

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Speaker 2: the guy is in phenomenal physical condition. Not to mention

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Speaker 2: getting hit while he's doing it, but I really believe this.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you go on you know, Instagram, I

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Speaker 2: think is this place where you see this the most?

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Speaker 2: Uh less so on Facebook. Facebook is kind of more

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Speaker 2: of an older demo now, but on Instagram you'll see this.

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Speaker 2: You have so many of these, I mean obviously not

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Speaker 2: all of them, but so many of these fitness influences

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Speaker 2: that are The men are enormously jacked, right like yeah,

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Speaker 2: incredibly low body fat, incredibly you know, like big muscle structure,

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Speaker 2: and the women are all super lean and generally have

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Speaker 2: very large fake breasts. Okay, this is the other thing

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Speaker 2: you see and sort of the fitness. This is not

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Speaker 2: what people look There are these a lot of them.

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Speaker 2: They're taking stuff. They don't tell you they're taking stuff.

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Speaker 2: One of the worst things you see a lot of

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Speaker 2: these Hollywood transformations or these people that say, oh, you know,

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Speaker 2: I just look at what look at Gerard Butler in

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Speaker 2: three hundred and look at him six months later or

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Speaker 2: a year later. Like, these people are not maintaining these

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Speaker 2: things they do for movies. They go on very strict regimens.

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Speaker 2: A lot of them are taking performance in it that

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Speaker 2: There are clinics all over Miami where you can walk

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Speaker 2: in there and they will start and they're like doctors

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Speaker 2: will do this. They will start injecting you with things

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Speaker 2: that will build muscle and cut fat before you have

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Speaker 2: lifted a weight. This is happening all over the place,

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Speaker 2: all over Hollywood. I'm not saying if you live in Oklahoma,

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Speaker 2: yeah not everyone's walking around on TRT. But I'm saying

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Speaker 2: the perceptions of what famous people should look like.

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Speaker 1: Now, I mean Elon Musk. Elon Musk is a nerd.

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Speaker 2: He's a genius. I think his work is amazing wheneverybody's

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Speaker 2: basically a super nerd, Like he's a guy who runs companies,

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Speaker 2: has like brilliant vision for the future, and he loves

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Speaker 2: video games and he takes there's a shirtless photo of

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Speaker 2: this guy when he's on a yacht, and everyone's like,

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Speaker 2: why there's an elon, Like he must lack discipline.

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Speaker 1: What's he supposed to do?

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Speaker 3: I just I think what you're hitting on is one

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Speaker 3: of the things why I think societ he peaked in

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine. But on a more serious level, this

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Speaker 3: is why thirty percent of teenage girls in the past

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Speaker 3: year I have thought about committing suicide because they go on

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Speaker 3: Instagram and they look at all these fabulously good looking people.

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Speaker 3: And I think Instagram in particular is a medium by

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Speaker 3: which people are defined by how they look. I like

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Speaker 3: Twitter X whatever you want to call it, because it's

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Speaker 3: defined primarily by what your opinion is, like what you say,

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Speaker 3: as opposed to what you look like, and a lot

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Speaker 3: of it's completely artificial. And so when you see Taylor

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Speaker 3: Swift and she's a good looking mid thirties woman, and

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Speaker 3: you see Travis Kelsey, I just think it's to your point.

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Speaker 3: It is reflective of how abnormal perceptions body reality are.

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Speaker 3: And that's why I say I think people get it

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Speaker 3: when you ask that question, how many of you on

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Speaker 3: your last vacation would have been comfortable with your girlfriend

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Speaker 3: or your boyfriend, or your husband or your wife, your

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Speaker 3: significant other, whatever it is, snapping a photo of you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's walk that so focus on this. This

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Speaker 2: only happens to famous people, so no one really sits

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Speaker 2: around thinking.

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Speaker 3: About it because I don't think people think about the

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Speaker 3: photo and how it comes about. I think you would

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Speaker 3: feel differently analyzing it if you thought to yourself, what

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Speaker 3: if photos are.

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Speaker 1: Just getting taken and people are popping it out there.

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Speaker 2: I think people would say that Taylor Swift and Travis

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Speaker 2: Kelcey are used to a lot of photos being taken

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Even but I want to vacate, Like my thought is,

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Speaker 3: when you go to an exclusive vacation, if I'm paying

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Speaker 3: fifteen thousand dollars a night, which is supposedly what they

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Speaker 3: were paying, really, yes, I don't want any photos getting

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Speaker 3: taken of me at that resort the whole time I'm there.

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Speaker 3: I want to just be able to chill and hang

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Speaker 3: out with my significant other. So my thought when I

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Speaker 3: see it is just we've normalized things that if they

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Speaker 3: happen to you would be totally abnormal, and just in

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Speaker 3: the back of your mind think about it a little bit,

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Speaker 3: and I think it changes the way that people contemplate it.

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Speaker 2: Also, the people who are saying, I mean, look, it's

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Speaker 2: the Internet, and people are hypercritical about all this stuff,

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Speaker 2: but that are saying, like Taylor, you know that Taylor

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Speaker 2: Swift doesn't look good or whatever. These people are in

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Speaker 2: these people are insane. Well, this is like this is

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Speaker 2: this is like when they were saying Margot Robbie is

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Speaker 2: mid yes, meaning that she's like middle of the pack

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Speaker 2: in terms of her looks. Also, the obsession with the

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Speaker 2: world is more appearance is more of a commodity than

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Speaker 2: it has ever been. I think American society is more

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Speaker 2: obsessed with appearance than it has ever been. I think

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Speaker 2: that our superficiality is worse than it has ever been.

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Speaker 2: I think that it is terrible in the world of

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Speaker 2: dating now that basically people talk about like online dating

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Speaker 2: and all this stuff, it's really just sorting by appearance.

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Speaker 2: That's actually what it is. And and I know you

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Speaker 2: say Oh, well, that's what attraction is.

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Speaker 1: That's different.

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Speaker 2: Actually, it used to be kind of life what happened

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Speaker 2: and you you know, interact with people. Now it's just

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Speaker 2: are you a seven? Are you a four? Are you

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Speaker 2: a ten? And you only deal with those other people

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Speaker 2: and and there's a there's a lot, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of soul searching. It needs to be done. Of course,

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Speaker 2: the worst version of this is, you know, only fans

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Speaker 2: is a billion dollar industry, and you know, women's beauty

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Speaker 2: is being exploited for everything other than just being appreciated

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Speaker 2: as a stepping stone to like motherhood. And you know,

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Speaker 2: like there's a lot of a lot of problems I

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Speaker 2: have with all.

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Speaker 3: I think it ties in with everything being on the phone.

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Speaker 3: Appearance got commoditized when it became so easy to take pictures.

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Speaker 1: I mean, think about it.

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Speaker 3: This is one of the things that I've always said,

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Speaker 3: we I feel very fortunate to be the age that

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Speaker 3: I am because I grew up in much of a

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Speaker 3: pre internet age. But I'm not so old that I

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Speaker 3: didn't understand the Internet. But it used to be you

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Speaker 3: had to take a camera out and there was time

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Speaker 3: that you had to you take a picture, and then

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Speaker 3: you go through and you like, you know whatever, Now

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Speaker 3: we take so many photos that we have commoditized appearance.

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Speaker 3: I think you're right on a level that has never

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Speaker 3: occurred in the history of man con.

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Speaker 2: I think about this my if you look at your iCloud,

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Speaker 2: like my life according to the Internet started around twenty eleven. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's what meaning in terms of photos like that's when

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I have I have, like you know,

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Speaker 2: very few I have thanks to legacy box. I can

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Speaker 2: enjoy someone they much old photos, but I have not

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Speaker 2: nearly as much as it used to. So that that's

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Speaker 2: also a big part of it too, and the whole

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Speaker 2: selfie culture and everything else. And I really think it

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Speaker 2: leads to a lot of misery. And I think that

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Speaker 2: your bigger point about what it's doing to women in particular.

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Speaker 2: You know, these influencers are putting photos of themselves up

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Speaker 2: that are that are face tuned, and they're they're they're

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Speaker 2: changing them around and this whole thing, you know, And

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Speaker 2: this is my way of saying, Travis and Taylor look

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Speaker 2: great in their bathing suits. Don't be idiots.

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Speaker 3: I would also say this the number of guys out

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Speaker 3: there that are really unattractive that feel comfortable demeaning women

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Speaker 3: online never ceases to astound me. Right, there's only so

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Speaker 3: many people that are actually good looking. What are the

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Speaker 3: odds that incredibly good looking people are the ones that

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Speaker 3: are spending time judging people online.

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Speaker 1: I think it's relatively low.

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Speaker 3: There's that great meme where it's like a guy you know,

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Speaker 3: sitting at his computer like she's a seven, I'd never

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Speaker 3: date her, and it's like, you know, he's three hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifty pounds, like unshaven for weeks. Like that's really

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Speaker 3: a lot of the people that are making these comments.

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Speaker 1: Sunday hang with Clay and Bucks.

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Speaker 2: I gotta tell you, I was a little surprised to

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Speaker 2: see this, and I brought it up with Carol, and

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Speaker 2: I didn't think this was a huge news story by

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Speaker 2: any means, but the whole like Travis Kelcey being body

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Speaker 2: shamed and Taylor Swift too, I think I just sort

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Speaker 2: of see some of this down in Miami because there's

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Speaker 2: such an obsession with physique here and there's so much Honestly,

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Speaker 2: people are just taking all kinds of stuff. Clay that

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Speaker 2: ex tweet on that six point eight million views, one

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty three thousand likes of my little musing

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Speaker 2: on Travis Kelcey and Taylor Swift, which you said, I

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Speaker 2: think is very astute. The Swifties may have caught onto this,

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Speaker 2: and fortunately I have not offended them.

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Speaker 3: You may be the swifties favorite media person now one

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Speaker 3: hundred and twenty three thousand likes for you defending Travis

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Speaker 3: Kelcey and his dad bod.

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Speaker 2: But I think it that's it. Look, dad Bod defense

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Speaker 2: is a hill I will die on. I'll tell you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, good for you.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm looking at the comments, and I do

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Speaker 3: think so many people out there, why about the fact

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Speaker 3: that they're taking things that will probably make them illegal

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Speaker 3: to play in sports. Right, That's the other thing about

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Speaker 3: why Travis Kelsey isn't super ripped. He gets tested for

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Speaker 3: this stuff all the time.

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Speaker 2: And I've come across people who are delusional. I've come

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Speaker 2: across people who have told me that they're taking stuff,

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Speaker 2: and then later on they'll tell me that they aren't

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Speaker 2: taking stuff, and I'm like, but you already told me

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Speaker 2: you are, and they're like, no, I wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, this is getting real deep, real deep

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Speaker 2: psychological stuff here.

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Speaker 3: Sundays with Clay and Buck Bad Therapy, Why the Kids

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Speaker 3: Aren't Growing Up? By Abigail Shreer. I am going to

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Speaker 3: read this book. Bucket's got his own copy as well.

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Speaker 3: We get a lot of books, Abigail, who is with

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Speaker 3: us now, A lot of times. To be frank, I

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Speaker 3: don't have the time to be able to read them.

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Speaker 3: I've put this on my list. My wife wants to

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Speaker 3: re you are absolutely killing it, and so I want

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Speaker 3: to start with this though, before we get into the book.

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Speaker 3: You have had a similar experience as me. When American

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Speaker 3: Playbook came out, it was the number one selling nonfiction

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Speaker 3: book in America. It did not make the New York

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Speaker 3: Times list. Your book went to number one, I believe

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Speaker 3: on Amazon, which is virtually unheard of. It did not

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Speaker 3: make one of the fifteen best selling books in America.

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Speaker 3: This is one of the best endorsements of a book

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Speaker 3: I can give you because to me, it means the

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Speaker 3: Times does not want your book to get the publicity

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Speaker 3: and attention. Explain that for listeners out there who I

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Speaker 3: think a lot of people think the New York Times

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Speaker 3: just ranks the best selling books. They don't at all.

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Speaker 3: Why is this significant? And what does it say to

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Speaker 3: you that they have avoided recognizing how many people are

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Speaker 3: buying and reading your book.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, they don't like anybody who kicks the

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Speaker 4: legs out of their narrative, right. So with the last book,

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Speaker 4: they were very very unhappy with me because I wrote,

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Speaker 4: you know, about the epidemic of teenage girls deciding they

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Speaker 4: were transgender, and I you know, pointed out the risks

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Speaker 4: and I argued it was a social contagion. And the

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Speaker 4: book was really successful, and that bothered the New York

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Speaker 4: Times a lot because eventually they had to admit those risks.

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Speaker 4: So in this book, you know, bad therapy really just

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Speaker 4: says that, you know, the the question is why are

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Speaker 4: these why does this generation think it so unwell? Why

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Speaker 4: are they awash and diagnosis? Why are they constantly taking

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Speaker 4: mental health days off of work? Why do they think

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Speaker 4: that they're why are they all and why don't they

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Speaker 4: all have a diagnosis? Why are they all on psychmads

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Speaker 4: or so many of them? And why do they never

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Speaker 4: say they're shy they have social phobia, and they never

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Speaker 4: say they're nervous, they say they have anxiety. They never

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Speaker 4: say they're sad, they say they're depressed and and the

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Speaker 4: point of the book was really to empower parents to

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Speaker 4: stop listening to these so called experts who are really

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Speaker 4: the undermining parental authority, really undermining especially dad's ability to

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Speaker 4: do what they think is right. It's often the men

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Speaker 4: who get who have changed the most and gotten the

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Speaker 4: most undermined by these so called experts. And that's the

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Speaker 4: last group that The New York Times ever wants to

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Speaker 4: give any you know, power to Abigail's.

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Speaker 2: Buck thanks for being with us. To what degree do

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Speaker 2: you think there's some connection possibly between the fact that

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Speaker 2: the psychiatric and psychologist profession is, by far, according to

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Speaker 2: all the data, and I don't think anybody disagrees with this,

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Speaker 2: the most left wing by political affiliation of any of

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Speaker 2: the medical specialties.

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Speaker 1: I mean to the.

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Speaker 2: Point where now you have some of these medical associations

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Speaker 2: that are going along with and you wrote the book

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Speaker 2: about about gender identity disorder, genderis for you whatever, they're

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Speaker 2: going along with things like men can get pregnant. I mean,

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Speaker 2: they actually are going along with anti science. And how

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Speaker 2: much politicization is to blame for this.

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Speaker 4: Sure so a lot. I mean the group that had

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Speaker 4: remember these accrediting organizations had nothing to say when kids

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Speaker 4: were heading into a second year.

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Speaker 1: Of lock lockout.

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Speaker 2: What did they do?

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Speaker 4: They showed up in Congress to warrn about police tactics,

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Speaker 4: climate change, right and systemic racism. They had a lot

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Speaker 4: to say about that. Now they think there's the solution

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Speaker 4: to kids' mental health. You know, in the book, I argue,

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Speaker 4: there are a large part of the problem. And here's

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Speaker 4: the connection to what you just raised. You know, if

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Speaker 4: you have intergenerational trauma, if all kids are walking around

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Speaker 4: with the trauma of their ancestors, not true, by the way,

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Speaker 4: it's a lot of nonsense. But if they are, then

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Speaker 4: colonialism and slavery are with us today. There continue to

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Speaker 4: harm these kids. Now we know it isn't true. It

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Speaker 4: hasn't been true, and I went into the research to

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Speaker 4: show that it wasn't true. But you know them Unfortunately

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Speaker 4: a lot of good parents have been undermined by the

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Speaker 4: idea that they don't know what's best for their kids'

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Speaker 4: mental health, and so they've been strong armed once again

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Speaker 4: into not doing what's right for their kids.

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Speaker 3: Bad therapy is the book Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up?

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Speaker 3: And I am already starting to read this a little bit, Abigail,

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Speaker 3: But I read your excerpts. I think it was in

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Speaker 3: the Wall Street Journal, which I thought was really interesting,

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Speaker 3: and I want you to expand upon this because I

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Speaker 3: see it at the front of the book too. Talk

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Speaker 3: therapy can induce rumination, trapping kids in cycles of anxiety

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Speaker 3: and depression.

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Speaker 1: This is what some of your research has found.

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Speaker 3: Social emotional learning handicaps our most vulnerable children in both

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Speaker 3: public schools in private. The piece that I read that

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Speaker 3: you excerpted was talking about how as parents were constantly

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Speaker 3: sort of taught to ask our kids how they feel,

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Speaker 3: and that that is making kids believe that whatever their

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Speaker 3: feeling is is their truth, as opposed to, you know,

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Speaker 3: teaching them that their emotions are going to vary and

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Speaker 3: that it can't be the guidepost of their life.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was so fascinating.

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Speaker 3: Explain what you uncovered about that focusing on feelings and

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Speaker 3: treating them as legitimate.

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Speaker 4: Sure, focusing on feelings which we know are in constant

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Speaker 4: and often even inaccurate guides to whether we have been

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Speaker 4: hurt or injured, or whether we're in the right Catting

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Speaker 4: kids to constantly focus on their feelings is actually a

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Speaker 4: recipe for misery. We know this, the psychological research shows it.

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Speaker 4: We're just doing the opposite. We're going into schools and

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Speaker 4: as parents were doing the same thing. We're constantly asking

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Speaker 4: kids how are they feeling about this? How are they

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Speaker 4: feeling about that? We're inducing a constant focus on their

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Speaker 4: negative feelings. Why is it negative? Because of course, if

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Speaker 4: you ask someone constantly how they're feeling, they're actually going

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Speaker 4: to produce mostly negative responses. And the reason is in

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Speaker 4: all of our you know, thousands of wakeful seconds, most

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Speaker 4: of them are not in a state called happy. They're

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Speaker 4: in some kind of period of irritation, itch, discomfort, worry,

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Speaker 4: and getting kids to focus on those things while rather

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Speaker 4: than going out and doing good. That's the opposite of

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Speaker 4: what we want to be doing. But the other's another

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Speaker 4: bad thing when with things like social emotional learning, constantly

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Speaker 4: asking kids about their negative feelings in school. But what

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Speaker 4: I want parents to know is it naturally tease up

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Speaker 4: a criticism of the parents. Why because parents are the

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Speaker 4: ones whose job it is to keep a child safe.

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Speaker 4: So if they were terribly traumatized by an incident, the

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Speaker 4: next question is where was mom.

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Speaker 3: I think the data you mentioned dads, I think the data.

435
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,719
Speaker 3: And I'm curious if you find this that as dads

436
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 3: have become less involved in two parent households, the overall

437
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 3: health of kids has collapsed, mental health in many ways.

438
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 3: And there's this idea, and I bet you've read about

439
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 3: it and studied at Abigail that lots of people, even

440
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 3: on the left, they talk left, but they live right.

441
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 3: That is, they have nuclear families in their own life.

442
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 3: A lot of people wagging their finger at you on

443
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 3: MSNBC and CNN. They are married to a woman or

444
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 3: they're married to a man. They have traditional household structures,

445
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 3: they raise the kids in the two parent household, and

446
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 3: then they lecture anyone who suggests that that would be

447
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 3: a good model, even though they're following it themselves. Where

448
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 3: does fatherhood rank and factor in here in your research?

449
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 4: So what father is that men are the ones who

450
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 4: have changed the most in terms of parenting in the

451
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 4: last generation. I mean, here's why. All of their instincts

452
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 4: they were told are bad for the kid's mental health.

453
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 4: Telling a kid you'll live, you're gonna be fine, shake

454
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 4: it off or knock it off, that kind of thing.

455
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 4: They were told don't do that. It's bad for their

456
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 4: mental health. Basically that would that is the wrong way

457
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 4: to proceed. And so the kids got no balance. They

458
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 4: got constant empathy, they got constant eliciting of their feelings,

459
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 4: and never a sense that they would be resilient, they

460
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 4: would be fine. And here's the other thing. They weren't

461
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 4: told that their grandparents went through much worse. See your grandparents,

462
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 4: that's the only proof you've got that your genetic material

463
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 4: is resilient. They need to hear what dad and mom

464
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 4: and grandparents went through and great grandparents went through. It's

465
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 4: the only proof they've got that they can get through

466
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 4: it too.

467
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 2: Abigail Schreier, the author Bad Therapy While the Kids aren't

468
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 2: growing up is the book? Recommend you all get a

469
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 2: copy of it now. And just in terms of the

470
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: therapy component of this for kids, how much of this

471
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 2: do you think is also the usage of the medicalization

472
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 2: of childhood discontent, which we all go through at different

473
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: times right in our knee, at different times we fall

474
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: off the jungle gymo. Though now I don't even if

475
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 2: there are jungle gyms anymore, like you can't really the

476
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 2: playgrounds have changed a lot from what they used to be.

477
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 2: But by medicalizing these problems. It means that they can

478
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 2: get at kids and indoctrinate them younger and younger.

479
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 4: That's right. They get them into the mental health pipeline

480
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 4: and they never leave. They just get more and more medication.

481
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 4: And here's the thing. Sometimes kids are going through a

482
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 4: bad phase. Sometimes they're going to outgrow it. And there's

483
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 4: something else too. When you get in and delete their

484
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 4: normal resources with medication, their normal sadness, you're also capping

485
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 4: the happiness, the highs. You're altering. You may be deleting

486
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 4: a sex drive and a young kid who's just starting puberty,

487
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 4: and you're doing all the things that will make it

488
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 4: harder for them to adjust to and cope with normal life.

489
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 4: And that's what we're seeing, a generation that can't cope Abigail.

490
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 3: How much does social media play in here in terms

491
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 3: of I talk about this on the show sometimes. One

492
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 3: of the most staggering stats I've seen thirty percent of

493
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 3: teenage girls have thought about killing themselves in the last year.

494
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: I mean, that is an unbelievable number. Obviously, that is

495
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 3: feelings triumphing over the logic of their life. Because I

496
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 3: can't imagine that thirty percent of women and teenage girls

497
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: are actually living in dire straits. How much of that

498
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 3: is a function of the feelings that they get from

499
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 3: social media, And how should parents, in your mind, contemplate

500
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 3: social media.

501
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 4: Social media is bad, it's hurting this problem, no doubt.

502
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 4: You know, I wrote about the last book, a social

503
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 4: contagion of trans identification that was basically spread largely through

504
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: social media. But here's the problem. The sad things they're feeling,

505
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 4: the sad feelings they have, you know, if they feel

506
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 4: lonely and depressed, partially because social media were then remediating

507
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 4: it with mental health, not giving them a better life,

508
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 4: not taking away the phone, not curving social media, but

509
00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 4: giving them more and more mental health interventions that aren't working. Diagnosis, medication,

510
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 4: it's not working. It's counterproductive. Why Because it's the life

511
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 4: that's a problem. And the reason we know this is

512
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 4: liberal boys from teenage teenage boys from liberal families have

513
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 4: worse mental health. Sorry, teenage boys from liberal families have

514
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 4: worse mental health than teenage girls from conservative families. Now,

515
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 4: let me tell you the girls are on a lot

516
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 4: more social media, but the difference is in the environment,

517
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 4: the lack of authority from parents, the introduction of mental

518
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 4: health experts into the home at the first indication of

519
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 4: sadness or a problem. All those things, and the constant

520
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 4: surveillance of any activity, never letting these kids have real

521
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 4: independence and trying to do something in the world even

522
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 4: when it's dangerous like or has potential danger like walking

523
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 4: home from school. Those are all things that make a

524
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 4: kid feel capable, and we're not letting him do those things.

525
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 2: How to go fer Everybody. Why the kids are aren't

526
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 2: growing up?

527
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: Bad therapy.

528
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: Why the Kids aren't growing up is the book. Abigail,

529
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 2: thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate the time.

530
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 4: Oh thank you. Take care