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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, and welcome to the Summer Movie Playlist. Chuck

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Speaker 1: here introducing today's show, which is I think maybe the

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Speaker 1: last one in the series on Teddy Cut Folly. So

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Speaker 1: this is not I guess we're ending on sort of

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Speaker 1: a down note because this isn't some fun talk about

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Speaker 1: a fun movie. It's some pretty serious talk about a

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Speaker 1: pretty sad documentary. But it's a remarkable film in its

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Speaker 1: own way and has its place in film history. So

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Speaker 1: we thought it was a pretty good episode. We hope

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Speaker 1: you enjoyed it all over again. Welcome to Stuff you

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Speaker 1: should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and this is stuff you should know. Just us today.

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Speaker 2: Jerry's on vacation and that's cool.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jerry's in the Disney World. Ye kind of went

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Speaker 3: right after me.

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Speaker 2: She's in the in the d.

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Speaker 1: I said, hey, Jerry, and the South bathroom of Frontierland,

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Speaker 1: above the toilet I've left. I've taped a gun. Go

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Speaker 1: shoot Mo Green, Go shoot Mo Green in the restaurant booth.

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Speaker 2: Wow, no, Mo Green got it in the on the

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Speaker 2: massage tape.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's right.

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Speaker 2: Police Commissioner or the police chief.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't believe he.

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Speaker 2: Was tangential to the hit with the bathroom. I don't

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Speaker 2: remember who was trying to hit.

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Speaker 3: That's right. I goofed that up. Hey, shout out to uh.

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Speaker 2: Wait, no, we're not done sorting this out.

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Speaker 3: Okay, go ahead, name all the hits in the Godfather.

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Speaker 1: Shout out to our pal and friend of the show,

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Speaker 1: Kevin Pollock, because that made me think of the great,

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Speaker 1: great show that is one of my favorite shows called

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Speaker 1: Better Things from the wonderful talented Pamela Adlin. They are

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Speaker 1: entering their final season and I watched the first episode

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Speaker 1: the other night and Pollock, who plays her brother on

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Speaker 1: the show, had a great line that I knew was

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Speaker 1: improved where he was getting in his car and I

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Speaker 1: can't remember what they were talking about, and he said

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Speaker 1: right in the eye like Mae Green. And I texted

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Speaker 1: him immediately and I was like, right in the eye

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Speaker 1: like mo Green. I was like, that was yours and

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Speaker 1: he went, oh yeah, he said that was improv nice.

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Speaker 1: It was very fun, and it's always fun to be

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Speaker 1: able to watch a TV show and text your pal

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Speaker 1: that's on that TV.

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Speaker 2: Show, right, Yeah, he's got the best parts. He just

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Speaker 2: pops up in all the best stuff. You know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's in masl He's I think, And I've talked

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Speaker 1: to Pollock about this and he's like, yeah, I agree.

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Speaker 1: I think he could star in a really great indie film.

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Speaker 1: I just think he's a really great actor and he's

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Speaker 1: great at comedy. But I think he's, on top of that,

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Speaker 1: just a really really great actor.

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Speaker 2: Didn't he star in that Project green Light film? I

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Speaker 2: don't know, did he which pretty I'm pretty sure I

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Speaker 2: think the first season?

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, I don't remember those movies. I know that

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Speaker 1: Shila Both that was where he got his start.

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Speaker 2: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Was he in one of those the Battle of Shaker

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Speaker 3: Heights or something?

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Speaker 2: I think that might have been the one that Pollock was.

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Speaker 3: Was he in that? I think of that movie? But

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Speaker 3: I mean a really good movie. I'm not sure the

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Speaker 3: Project green Light moves, but it was a cool show though,

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Speaker 3: I dug it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Surrily hadn't brought that back in the iPhone

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Speaker 1: filmmaking age.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little surprising who would be who would

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Speaker 2: bring it back? Though?

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Speaker 3: Now Ben and ma could bring him back. I mean

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Speaker 3: they that's who did it.

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Speaker 2: The first time, right, sure, But I mean are they

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Speaker 2: still relevant? Aren't there two? Like younger versions of the.

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Speaker 3: New and Math better? I don't know who the new

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Speaker 3: Ben and Matt are.

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Speaker 2: How about whiz Khalifah.

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Speaker 3: And Charlomagne the God?

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Speaker 2: Sure there? You all right?

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Speaker 3: Great anyway? Keppa Bok's a great actor and a good dude.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agreed, And probably somebody I would guess who's

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Speaker 2: seen the movie that we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 2: I would be really surprised if he has it, just

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Speaker 2: because I feel like, if you are into movies, if

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Speaker 2: you're a movie maker, if you are if you consider

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Speaker 2: yourself a cinema file, if you want to get punched

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Speaker 2: in the stomach, you've probably seen Titty Cut Follies, right, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean this is one that I saw in film class

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Speaker 1: in college. It is one that you there's about a

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Speaker 1: fifty to fifty chance that you will see this if

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Speaker 1: you've seen it in film class in a college. People

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Speaker 1: like Casey, our colleague Casey Pegram, no doubt. As a

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Speaker 1: Frederick Weisman fan, I'm surely if I texted him me,

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Speaker 1: but oh sure, Weisman. Yes, Although I found Tittcut Follies

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Speaker 1: was not one of his greatest works.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds like Casey.

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Speaker 1: God Bless Casey all time greatest movie crush guests. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: Fred Weisman made this film. He was a law professor

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Speaker 1: in his thirties in the sixties and made this documentary

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Speaker 1: film about a mental institution, specifically one for the criminally insane,

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Speaker 1: that's what they called it. Yeah, and it was a

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Speaker 1: very you know, it was a movie that gained a

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Speaker 1: lot of reputation as like the most disturbing film you've

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Speaker 1: ever seen, and it's been banned in this many places

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Speaker 1: and and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: But when you kind of.

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Speaker 1: Peel it back, it's just a very straight up, sort

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Speaker 1: of cinema verite documentary about a institution that needed to

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Speaker 1: get their act together.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that was kind of Wiseman told jam like,

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Speaker 2: he's made forty eight films. I think he just turned

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Speaker 2: ninety two a couple months ago, amazing, and starting in

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six, he made about a film a year. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and he has his own style, like you said, cinema verite,

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Speaker 2: which I feel like we should probably kind of just

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Speaker 2: go ahead and explain, don't you sure, Yeah, go ahead,

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Speaker 2: go ahead, film guy.

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Speaker 1: Uh, Well, cinema verite. I mean, what's the direct translation,

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Speaker 1: direct cinema. Yeah, direct cinema. And it's the idea that

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Speaker 1: you kind of set a camera up and let it

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Speaker 1: let life happen in front of it for whatever your

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Speaker 1: subject is. You don't you don't do interviews, you don't

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Speaker 1: do talking head shots, you don't you it's really just uh.

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Speaker 1: One good example is that documentary and that, of course

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Speaker 1: now I can't think of it in the seventies about

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Speaker 1: the American family that ran on PBS that was so

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Speaker 1: groundbreaking where they just set up a camera and followed

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Speaker 1: this family. And if you're thinking it sounds a lot

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Speaker 1: like reality TV, I think, and it's purest form reality

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Speaker 1: TV can be this, but it really turned into something

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Speaker 1: else entirely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just so deeply manipulated by producers behind the

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Speaker 2: scenes who tell them to do this or that or whatever. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: cinema verites would would not would not want to do that.

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Speaker 2: They just shoot and hope hope also that people act

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Speaker 2: like themselves. It's another thing. And yeah, one thing. Frederick Wiseman,

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Speaker 2: the guy who made Titty Cut Follies, said like he

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Speaker 2: believed that people basically acted like themselves when the camera

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Speaker 2: was around, because people are in general lousy actors.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we cant to that.

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Speaker 2: They're behaving like you would expect them to behave, so

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Speaker 2: they're probably acting like they would without the cameras, but

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Speaker 2: especially in a cinema verite kind of setup, because it's

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Speaker 2: it's intrusive. There's a camera there, but it's not nearly

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Speaker 2: as intrusive as like a camera on like some rig

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Speaker 2: that's flying around, or like there's lighting people and gaffers

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Speaker 2: and a craft services table that's calling your name, but

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Speaker 2: it's just much less intrusive than that. It's minimally intrusive

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Speaker 2: as far as filmmaking goes, and that's the point of it,

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Speaker 2: because they want to document reality without leading the viewer

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Speaker 2: as much as possible.

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Speaker 3: From what I understand, Yeah, that's exactly it.

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Speaker 1: And I love cinema verite documentaries especially, and I also

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Speaker 1: like sort of quasi cinema verite where there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of like I don't mind interviews being put in there

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Speaker 1: as long as there's a lot of just sort of

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Speaker 1: watching life happen. It's really amazingly engrossing. There were these

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Speaker 1: two filmmakers that I think inspired Weissman, Richard Leecock, and

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Speaker 1: Robert Drew, who in the early I think in the

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Speaker 1: fifties and early nineteen sixties were kind of dabbling in

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Speaker 1: cinema verite documentaries, and they made one in particular called

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Speaker 1: Mooney Versus Fowl, which is about a high school football

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Speaker 1: championship and Mooney and Fowl are the two coaches, and

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Speaker 1: I watched the trailer for that today. I guess I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing it's his daughter that put this up on vimeo,

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Speaker 1: along with some other interviews with her dad, Drew's daughter,

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Speaker 1: that it's really engrossing just to watch, and especially because

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Speaker 1: all you see if you're a modern person in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two and you're like, what was life like in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, you don't get that from I love

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Speaker 1: Lucy and Dick Van Dyke, Like those are great shows,

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Speaker 1: but to be able to just sit in and take

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Speaker 1: a peek at these high school football coaches and the

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Speaker 1: people the community in the stands and these players, like

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Speaker 1: it's just so engrossing to me. Not everyone's cup of tea,

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Speaker 1: but I really like it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, totally, but yeah, I feel like, even even

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Speaker 2: if it isn't your cup of tea. You would, like

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Speaker 2: you said, be engrossed by it. I don't think there's

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Speaker 2: any way to just be like I don't know, some

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Speaker 2: people would probably find it dull. There, I'm sure there are,

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Speaker 2: but it's it's just it is engrossing. I don't think

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Speaker 2: there's any other way to universally describe it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and Drew, I sent you that one little interview snip,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if you saw it, but he

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Speaker 1: sort of was talking about being a new form of journalism. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: where he talked about you know, it's like a you know,

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Speaker 1: they're like, well what is this though, and he's like, well,

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Speaker 1: it's like a play without a playwriter, a movie without actors,

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Speaker 1: or journalism without opinions. And I was like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting to say in the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all the way back then.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's they saw it as leelock, and I

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Speaker 1: think Drew saw it more as a form of journalism.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like that's what documentaries used to be,

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Speaker 1: and that's changed a lot, sometimes for the better. It

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Speaker 1: can be all things, I guess, but it seems like

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Speaker 1: documentaries used to be way more journalism and less a

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Speaker 1: big time entertainment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what do you think about How do you feel

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Speaker 2: about recreations and documentaries?

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Speaker 1: I think it can be cool if you have a good, uh,

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Speaker 1: like a new spin on it, kind of like when

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Speaker 1: the kid Stays in the picture came out the documentary

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Speaker 1: about the producer.

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Speaker 3: What's his face.

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans, Yeah, Robert Godfather, Yes, exactly, full circle. They

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Speaker 1: did those recreations through animation and this really cool style

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Speaker 1: of animation that was really engaging and awesome, and like,

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Speaker 1: recrease can be really cool if you do it right,

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, or really bad if it's like some

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Speaker 1: dumb cop show on TV.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like, but those are kind of fun too. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you mean like the one Headline News shows it one

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Speaker 2: hundred episodes a day, Forensic Files.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen it, but it's the recrease I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: of where it's like, you know, they recreated murder on

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Speaker 1: like yet.

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Speaker 3: Five hundred dollars to shoot this.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's exactly right. Yeah, you're thinking of Forensic Files.

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Speaker 2: But still, if you watch enough of it, it'll really

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Speaker 2: like your whole life will turn dark. Yeah, I would

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Speaker 2: be careful with Fransic Files.

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Speaker 1: Everybody, So should we go back and talk about Bridgewater

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Speaker 1: State Hospital.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because this is the place where Frederick Wiseman showed

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Speaker 2: up with his camera with permission, as we'll see. And

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Speaker 2: by the time he got there in nineteen I think

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Speaker 2: he shot in nineteen sixty five, maybe nineteen sixty six, yeah,

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Speaker 2: sixty six, Okay, when he got there, it had been

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Speaker 2: around for over one hundred years. It didn't start out

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Speaker 2: as a state hospital. It started out as a poor house,

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Speaker 2: an almshouse, I think, all the way back in eighteen

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Speaker 2: fifty four.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's interesting when you read these it's disturbing.

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Speaker 1: But when you read these old timey classifications in medicine

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Speaker 1: or especially in mental health, where someone be you know,

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Speaker 1: the description of someone that might be put there might

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Speaker 1: just be bad.

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Speaker 3: Like that's one of the descriptions.

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Speaker 2: Right, Like that'd be on par with like labeling them

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Speaker 2: alcoholic or schizophrenia or something like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, if you were if you had

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Speaker 1: an alcohol problem, or you had legitimate you know, mental

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Speaker 1: health issues, or if you were pregnant maybe or blind,

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Speaker 1: or you had syphilis, you might have been put in

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Speaker 1: this poorhouse in eighteen fifty four.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So in Massachusetts, by the way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know if we said that or not. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So that's how it started out. And then over time

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Speaker 2: they started adding criminals and focused more on criminals and

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Speaker 2: the mentally ill, and then by the time eighteen ninety

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Speaker 2: five rolled around, it became the State Asylum for Insane

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Speaker 2: Criminals at the State Workhouse at Bridgewater, and then eventually

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Speaker 2: it became known as Bridgewater State Hospital, I think by

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Speaker 2: nineteen oh nine, and then very crucially here it was

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Speaker 2: handed over from the State Board of Charity, because remember

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Speaker 2: it started out as a poorhouse over to the Massachusetts

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Speaker 2: Beerau of Prison. So, for all intents and purposes, at

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Speaker 2: least bureaucratically speaking, is a place where the criminally insane,

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Speaker 2: how they were termed in the twentieth century as are held.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there were some bad criminals in there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there were murderers, There were people who were convicted of cannibalism,

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Speaker 1: of rape of children, or just generally of rape. So

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Speaker 1: there were some bad dudes in there, for sure. But

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Speaker 1: then there were also and this was sort of one

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Speaker 1: of the saddest things about sort of that time in

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Speaker 1: this country, those people were right alongside other people who

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Speaker 1: either committed a very minor crime, or maybe didn't commit

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Speaker 1: a crime at all, and they were just quite unquote

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Speaker 1: being held there temporarily, but that could stretch on into years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's still something today called civil commitment, and it's

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Speaker 2: basically that you were being held not because of a

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Speaker 2: crime or because of a minor crime, and you maybe

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Speaker 2: you've even served your sentence, but you're being held because

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Speaker 2: you had been deemed mentally unfit to return to society,

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Speaker 2: even though maybe you didn't even start out like in

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Speaker 2: a mental hospital. Maybe you started out in jail and

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Speaker 2: then you're just a trouble maker. They considered you a

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Speaker 2: troublemaker in jail and you got sent to the hospital.

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Speaker 2: At that point, your sentence was just it just went away.

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Speaker 2: It was you were there until a doctor decided you

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Speaker 2: should be let out. And the problem was getting the

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Speaker 2: attention of a doctor long enough to say, oh, actually

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Speaker 2: you're you're fine, yeah, and let you out was really

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Speaker 2: difficult to do. And so it was a really desperate place,

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Speaker 2: especially for people who didn't feel like they should be there,

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Speaker 2: belong there, because after a while it seemed to exert

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Speaker 2: its influence on your mind and your outlook, and it

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Speaker 2: would bend you to reflect it so that you kind

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Speaker 2: of needed to be there after a while, even if

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Speaker 2: you didn't start out that way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, anyone who's ever seen One Floor with

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Speaker 1: the Cuckoo's Nest is kind of exactly that happens in

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Speaker 1: the plot. Like people got worse at these places, right,

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Speaker 1: And you mentioned the medical actual medical attention. President of

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Speaker 1: the Massachusetts Bar Association at the time, Paul Tamborello, and

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Speaker 1: a big thanks to Livia for digging this up and

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Speaker 1: putting us together for us. But he told the Harvard

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Speaker 1: Crimson back then that of the six hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: men held at the hospital at the time, actual medical

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Speaker 1: staff were able to see less than half of them

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Speaker 1: one time a year for about twenty minutes. So other

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Speaker 1: than that, you're like, well, then who was it. If

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Speaker 1: it wasn't medical staff, it was like prison guards basically.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: And even then when you did get that twenty minutes,

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Speaker 2: you were confronted by a person or group of people

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Speaker 2: who were going on the premise that everything you said

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Speaker 2: came out of your mouth was looney, right, and not

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Speaker 2: based in reality or fact, no matter how well you

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Speaker 2: put your case or stated your case or complained like

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Speaker 2: any show of emotion would just prove to them that

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Speaker 2: you were meant to be in there for another year

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Speaker 2: until they could hopefully see you again and reevaluate you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was this one example Olivia found of jeez,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to believe. Matteo Kalakochi was arrested in nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty seven, at my daughter's age, almost seven years old,

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Speaker 1: for stealing seven bucks from a grocery store, which is

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Speaker 1: pretty good take in nineteen twenty seven, by the way,

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Speaker 1: and he was found incompetent to stay in trial and

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Speaker 1: then sent to kind of sent all around over the

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Speaker 1: years to different institutions. After he tried to escape in

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty five, was eventually landed at Bridgewater and this

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Speaker 1: was another one of those archaic terms. Was charged with

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Speaker 1: bad habits and resisting authority, and this seven year old

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Speaker 1: eventually ended up here later in life, but stayed there

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Speaker 1: for twenty eight years and released in nineteen sixty three.

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Speaker 3: So that's just just.

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Speaker 1: One example of how like sort of a small petty crime,

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Speaker 1: but if you maybe have an attitude or your troublemaker

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Speaker 1: as a kid, and you bounce around from place to place,

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Speaker 1: you just might wind up here with no one advocating

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Speaker 1: for you. Kind of this all made me think of

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Speaker 1: like what families were doing. But I guess at the

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Speaker 1: time some families were kind of like maybe convinced themselves

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Speaker 1: they were better off there, or they didn't want to

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Speaker 1: deal with the trouble, or there were no family I

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Speaker 1: don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or all the family was poor and had no

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Speaker 2: influence over anybody, so they couldn't do anything about it.

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Speaker 3: Very sad. So we take a break, Yeah, I say, we.

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Speaker 2: Take a break and we'll come back with Wiseman and

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Speaker 2: his tenuere while he was at Bridgewater. So Frederick Wiseman

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Speaker 2: had an interesting origin story as a filmmaker. He was

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Speaker 2: He went to law school at Yale supposedly to get

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Speaker 2: out of the Korean War draft, but then when he graduated,

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Speaker 2: he still ended up getting drafted anyway, and he was

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Speaker 2: in there for almost.

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Speaker 3: Two years kind of after the war.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, but I still I'll bet he was

355
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Speaker 2: not happy about being drafted either way. Sure, so he

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Speaker 2: he went he I guess went to Korea for a

357
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Speaker 2: couple of years, and then after the army he and

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Speaker 2: his wife what is her name.

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Speaker 3: Is Zora Batshaw?

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Speaker 2: Great name yeah, she was a law professor as well.

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Speaker 2: They went to Paris, lived for a couple of years,

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Speaker 2: and then decided they need to move back, so they

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Speaker 2: moved back to like the Boston area. But while there

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Speaker 2: Frederi Wiseman got into filmmaking. He started just shooting stuff

365
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Speaker 2: with a little eight millimeter camera, about the time that

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Speaker 2: cinema verite was being developed in France.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So, like you said, he came back from France, started

369
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Speaker 1: teaching law at BU and sort of had that filmmaking

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Speaker 1: bug still. So he bought the rights to a book,

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Speaker 1: a novel called The Cool World about poverty and Harlem,

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Speaker 1: and he hired a woman named Shirley Clark Clark sorry

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Speaker 1: to direct it. And it was a very small I

374
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Speaker 1: don't think it was much of a big film at all,

375
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Speaker 1: but it was a very small sort of indie film

376
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Speaker 1: at the time, which is to say it was probably

377
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Speaker 1: not seen much. But Wiseman was like, hey, like, if

378
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Speaker 1: Shirley Clark can do this thing, I can do this thing.

379
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Speaker 1: And I don't like law school. I don't like teaching law.

380
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Speaker 1: One of the things he did, because he didn't love

381
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Speaker 1: teaching law was take his class on a lot of

382
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Speaker 1: field trips, I guess just to mixings up, and they

383
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Speaker 1: used to go to Bridgewater, and after a few visits

384
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Speaker 1: he was like, wait a minute, I think everything kind

385
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Speaker 1: of came together. His love of filmmaking, his cinema veritae

386
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Speaker 1: kind of becoming popular, and his interest in that, and

387
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Speaker 1: then his interest disinterest in law and interest in Bridgewater.

388
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Speaker 1: So he had this idea to make this film there.

389
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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, as we'll see later, this is kind of crucial.

390
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Speaker 2: He got permission to show up. He's said many times

391
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Speaker 2: in later interviews, Bridgewater is no the kind of place

392
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Speaker 2: you just kind of parachute in at night, do all

393
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Speaker 2: your filming and then creep away at dawn with all

394
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Speaker 2: of your footage. Like he had to get extensive permission from.

395
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Speaker 3: Sounds like he's done that before though, which is kind

396
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Speaker 3: of cool.

397
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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've done that before too, in grocery stores.

398
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Speaker 3: Remember, Oh, that's right.

399
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Speaker 2: So he got permission from the Lieutenant Governor, he got

400
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 2: permission from the Department of Corrections head, he got permission

401
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 2: of the superintendent of Bridgewater. They all knew he was there,

402
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 2: and they would have figured out eventually anyway, because he

403
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 2: spent twenty nine days filming in Bridgewater, and he would

404
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 2: just do his his cinema veritas style where he would

405
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 2: just walk around and just film stuff, film whatever. He could,

406
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,679
Speaker 2: just film film film. And I saw something where he

407
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 2: said that his for his documentaries, he films anything from

408
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Speaker 2: like seventy five hours in a minimum chuck Wow, to

409
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty hours, and then he goes through

410
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 2: it all and edits all the stuff he likes, and

411
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Speaker 2: then after like month eight of editing, he'll start piecing

412
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Speaker 2: it together into like an arc A story arc.

413
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Speaker 1: Wow, which boiled down in this case to eighty three

414
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Speaker 1: minutes of a movie. Yeah, and the name Tittcut Follies

415
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,280
Speaker 1: comes from I think Titticut was a Native American name.

416
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Speaker 3: I would guess somewhere in the region. I didn't really pick.

417
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Speaker 2: For the Bridgewater area. That's what they called it, Okay.

418
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Speaker 1: And the follies were that, you know, the film opens

419
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 1: up with a musical performance by the I guess there

420
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 1: were inmates with the song struck Up the band where

421
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 1: all they're all dressed the same and you can see

422
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,199
Speaker 1: you can see quite a few clips on YouTube. But

423
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Speaker 1: as Livia points out, like Weiseman has always been really

424
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Speaker 1: guarded with how his films are exhibited, and so I

425
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 1: don't think you can just like go YouTube this thing

426
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Speaker 1: up and watch the whole thing still, even.

427
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 2: I did last night.

428
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Speaker 3: Oh on YouTube?

429
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, on YouTube. No, it was on vimeo.

430
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, all right, I wonder if that's like some

431
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: sort of pirated upload.

432
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,920
Speaker 2: It was. It's it's a it was a VHS copied

433
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 2: put online. So I'm thinking, yeah, it was pirated.

434
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Speaker 3: Did you watch it all?

435
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? I did. I watched I'd never seen it before.

436
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: I was familiar with it the title. I had not

437
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 2: a lot of idea of what it was about, but yeah,

438
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: it was. But do you think certainly striking? It was

439
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 2: really something like I had ups and downs and highs

440
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,679
Speaker 2: and lows, and I think it was everything Wiseman wanted

441
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 2: me to feel about it. It was pretty great.

442
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is great. It's even the eighty

443
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 1: three minutes. It's tough to sit through the whole thing

444
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: because I think by its nature, cinema verite can be taxing. Yeah,

445
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: even while engrossing, it can be pretty taxing.

446
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 3: That's the best way to put it.

447
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: But it's also obviously in this case, it's not about

448
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 1: high school football.

449
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:18,720
Speaker 3: Championship.

450
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 1: It's it's literally watching these people. I mean, I guess

451
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: we should just talk about some of the scenes.

452
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 2: Maybe, Yeah, And a lot of the people are going

453
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 2: to go back and be like justa this is great

454
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 2: or bear with us everybody.

455
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, hey, you're a cinophile, that's right, punch

456
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 3: me in the face.

457
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,640
Speaker 2: But no, the stomach, okay, says way too hostile stomachs. Yeah,

458
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 2: a little bit of friendliness left in it.

459
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, like Houdini style, that'll do well.

460
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: One of the scenes that Livia picked out that certainly

461
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: stands out in my mind too, and I think you

462
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: can actually find parts of this one on YouTube is

463
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 1: a guard. I guess was he dry shaving It looked

464
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: like dry shaving or was it a wet shave.

465
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 2: No, they put like shaving cream on him and everything.

466
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 2: Oh okay, And everybody seems to characterize it as like

467
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: really rough, like forceful, kind of almost like he's being

468
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 2: tortured with the shave.

469
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 3: It was fast, It was fast, Yeah.

470
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: I didn't. It didn't look like it hurt the patient,

471
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 2: so it didn't. And it didn't seem like the guy

472
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: was trying to torture him. It just seemed like he

473
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 2: was being very quick and efficient, and he does like

474
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 2: cut him at the edge of one of his mouth,

475
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 2: one of the edges of a corner of his mouth. Sorry, Right,

476
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 2: so he's bleeding a little bit, but it doesn't seem

477
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 2: like he doesn't seem in distressed at all while he's

478
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: shaving him at the very least, he's not in distress because.

479
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 3: Of the shaving, right, But then what happened.

480
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 2: Well, there are these at least two guards, right, and

481
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: this ismate. By the way, his name Jim. He's probably

482
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 2: the most famous character in the in the movie. Yeah,

483
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: or patient, I should say, he's not a character he has.

484
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 2: It's easy to get a rise out of Jim, as

485
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 2: hard as Jim tries to not let you get a

486
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: rise out of him. If you press his buttons, he's

487
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: gonna like, yeah, he's gonna get mad. He's going to

488
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 2: try to contain himself. And there are a couple of

489
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: guards that were guarding Jim while he was being washed

490
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: and shaved and all that stuff, who just spent the

491
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 2: entire scene trying to get a rise out of him

492
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 2: by saying like, why is your room so dirty, Jim?

493
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 2: Or is your room going to be clean tomorrow. Jim,

494
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: you got to keep your room clean. Jim just ceaselessly

495
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 2: and incessantly, and we see eventually when they take him

496
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: back to his room, it's totally empty. There's a window,

497
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: there's nothing in the room, and in fact, Jim is

498
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: kept naked in his room, so there's no way for

499
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 2: Jim for Jim's room to be dirty, and also for

500
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 2: no way for Jim to keep his room clean. These guards,

501
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 2: you realize, were just trying to get a rise out

502
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: of Jim, and they do over and over again, and

503
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: it's really hard and sad to watch Jim like just

504
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: get up saying he's trying so hard to just not

505
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 2: let these guys get to him because he knows what

506
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 2: they're doing. He's fully aware of what they're doing, and

507
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 2: he just can't help himself. Probably like five different times

508
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 2: he reacts and then tries to regain his composure again.

509
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's almost as that they're trying to drive him mad.

510
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're also doing I saw somebody describe it

511
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: as they're they're goading him with the kind of like

512
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 2: bored desensitization or desensitivity of somebody who does this, like

513
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 2: every day and know exactly what he's gonna do, and

514
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 2: there's no fun in it anymore. But they just kind

515
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 2: of do it to amuse themselves as much as they

516
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 2: can from it, which is even worse, you know, because

517
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: they're torturing this poor guy mentally.

518
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we should point out too that, you know,

519
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: Weisman showed scenes like this, but it wasn't It wasn't

520
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: like a one indictment on the people who work there,

521
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: because he did also show some parts where there was

522
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: some caretaken. I mean, what was your like, I haven't

523
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: seen the whole thing since college, so what was your

524
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: net net on that?

525
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,200
Speaker 2: So? I think the thing that I got from it

526
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: was that Wiseman treats everybody as human and equal in

527
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: that he's not expressing like empathy necessarily. He's not trying

528
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: to even get you to to empathize or sympathize. He's

529
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: not trying to get you to form an opinion. He's

530
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 2: just showing you what he found right. And if he

531
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: is trying to get you to form an opinion, it's

532
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: so abuse that it's tough to put your finger on.

533
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: In retrospect, maybe maybe you respond exactly the way he

534
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 2: wanted you to, but he's not very rarely does he

535
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: like hammer you with it. So I feel like he

536
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: just treats everybody the same. Like there's a guy, there's

537
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 2: a patient who talks about all of the children he's raped,

538
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: and he knows that it's bad. He knows that it's

539
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: like that, like what he's doing is wrong and he

540
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 2: can't help himself. But there's like Wiseman makes no effort

541
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 2: to make this man seem despicable or evil or anything

542
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 2: like that. He might as well be talking about like

543
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 2: a car he's thinking about buying. Yeah, for how Wiseman

544
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 2: portrays it, And so like, if he's treating that guy equal,

545
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 2: he's definitely treating like the guards and the clinical staff

546
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: and everybody equally. But I think more than that, he

547
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: just turns the camera on and lets them behave as

548
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 2: they're going to behave. He lets them present themselves to you,

549
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 2: rather than him trying to manipulate it so that you

550
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 2: see what Wiseman wants you to see.

551
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's the purest form of cinema veritae,

552
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: which you know, it's interesting how conditioned we are to

553
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: even hearing an ominous musical score during a scene where

554
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: a guy might talk about crimes like that, and when

555
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: all that's stripped away like it's it can be like

556
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: more unsettling, I think than hearing that creepy score totally.

557
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: It reminds me then this is certainly not the same thing.

558
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: But we went to a Cleveland Indians baseball game one

559
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: time when Emily's family still lived in Ohio, and it

560
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: was this throwback game where they didn't do any modern

561
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: things at all, and you don't really think about that.

562
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: You're like, when was a baseball game? What do they do? Like?

563
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: All they had was the organ player and the announcer going,

564
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: you know now after bad.

565
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 3: Number five so and toe so and to awesome, yeah done.

566
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: You didn't play a song when they came up that

567
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: the batter picked out. They didn't have the home depot

568
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: hammer and nail and shovel chase each other around the

569
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: field between innings and a race. They didn't you know,

570
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: there's you don't realize when you go to a pro

571
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: sports game of all the extra boy, especially an NBA game, sure,

572
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: all the extra stuff that's there until it's gone. And

573
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: it was really really weird. I liked it. Her family

574
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: was like, I'm bored, and I was like, I think.

575
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: This is kind of cool the shortag jacks at least.

576
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean they sold the stuff and it

577
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: wasn't throwback prices, of course, but it was. It's weird

578
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: when you're so conditioned though, kind of like with film,

579
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: just to background noise and just sort of the things

580
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: that we hear in movies, lighting or a camera move

581
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: or you know, cinema verite is all about sort of

582
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: just locking that camera down or handholding it. Sometimes when

583
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: all that artifice is gone, it can have a reverse

584
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: effect that all the artifice has, like you're using it for.

585
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think in addition to what is added

586
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: to kind of manipulate you emotionally or unconsciously, there's also

587
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: a lot that's removed, a lot of reality that's removed,

588
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: like like the background noise. If they put background noise in,

589
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: it's fully artists. It's not the actual background noise that

590
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: was there when they were filming. Yeah, that's not what

591
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: Wiseman does. This film is replete with disturbing background noise,

592
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: like televisions that are on that you can't see other people,

593
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: both conversations that you can't make out what they're saying

594
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 2: the lighting he uses is only the lighting at Bridgewater.

595
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: He doesn't use any of his own light. It's all

596
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 2: whatever it's called available light. And Yeah, when you just

597
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: kind of watch it, you're like, this is just like

598
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: looking in on real life, which makes what you're seeing

599
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: all the more disturbing because, in addition to almost being there,

600
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: you almost feel guilty, especially if you have half a

601
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: conscience of witnessing the stuff that you're seeing, because you're

602
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 2: seeing some of these people like Jim when he's taken

603
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: back to his cell after those guards got a rise

604
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: out of him while he was being shaved. He's naked,

605
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 2: fully naked, stomping around basically throwing a tantrum, trying. You

606
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: can tell he's trying to calm himself down. This is

607
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: how he's like getting out his anger, and Wiseman just

608
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 2: sits there and films the whole thing, and you're forced

609
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: to watch as the viewer. You're I saw somebody put it.

610
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: It's basically like you're the one standing in the doorway.

611
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: Even after the guards have left, you're still standing there

612
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: watching this man in one of the probably one of

613
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 2: the several worst points of his recent life. Just gawking

614
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: at him basically, and it's it's that's the hard part

615
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: of it for sure.

616
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, Or you know, at the other end of the spectrum,

617
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: there's a scene with a guy named Vladimir, and this

618
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: guy is very lucid and he's speaking very clearly about

619
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: you know, I think, my, my, I've deteriorated since I've

620
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: been here. I think all this noise that you're hearing,

621
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: all these TVs that are always turned on full blast,

622
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: it's sort of driving me crazy. And I would like

623
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: to go back to prison where I actually could work

624
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: out in a gym and I could take classes. And

625
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: this medication that they're giving me is making me worse,

626
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: Like I feel that it's harming me. And when he's

627
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, when the guards take him out of the room,

628
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: then there there's a scene of the the clinicians like

629
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: discussing things, and it's sort of like, sounds like we

630
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: need to up his medication right and his tranquilizers because

631
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: he's paranoid. So when you see something like that, it's

632
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: sort of the other end of the spectrum from Jim,

633
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: equally disturbing, but part of the beauty of this and

634
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: the rawness of this film is like these people are

635
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: all in the here together.

636
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's never lost on you.

637
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: His is a particularly sad case. Yeah, because you can tell, like, no,

638
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: he's with it. This guys, he knows what he's saying.

639
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: He's not trying to manipulate. He's pleading his case in

640
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: a logical way. He's trying so hard not to get

641
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: worked up. How would you not get worked up when

642
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: when you're pleading your case to be released from a

643
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: mental institution from somebody who's just taking you, as you know, nuts,

644
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: So why should you be listened to. There's even one

645
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: of the medical staff at that meeting. After he leaves

646
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: the room and they're discussing him, she says, what did

647
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: she say? She's like, if you take his basic premise

648
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: is true, then everything he says from that is totally logical.

649
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 2: But of course his basic premise is total hogwash or whatever.

650
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: She says something right, I'm paraphrasing, just so it's like

651
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: that guy never had a chance. He just wasted his breath.

652
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 2: He just like they they were never going to listen

653
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: to him, And it's like red and yeah, yeah, well

654
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 2: was he not supposed to be there? He was supposed

655
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: to be there one.

656
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but every time he came up for parole

657
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: he would plead his case, they would deny it.

658
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,720
Speaker 3: And then finally in the end.

659
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: He was like, you know, it doesn't matter what I

660
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: say in here, You're not gonna let me out anyway.

661
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 3: That's my Morgan Freeman.

662
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 2: But that sounds a little more like boss Hog on Tranquilizers.

663
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: What Yeah, that was boss Hog sedated.

664
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 3: Oh Man's again. No, I can't maybe Jerry can edit that.

665
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: I can't have a do my Morgan Freeman again, one

666
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: of the great voices. But yeah, he basically says, you know, institutionalized,

667
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: you're you're let me out no matter what I say.

668
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 3: And of course that's when they let him out, which

669
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: is it's.

670
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: A dramatic film and with a great, wonderful, happy ending,

671
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: not like titty cut volleys no.

672
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 2: One. Other thing that I think we should point out

673
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: too for people who haven't seen the movie, like we

674
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 2: know Vladimir's name in Jim's name, just because it comes

675
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 2: up like in discussion, like they're calling him Jim or

676
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 2: somebody addresses Vladimir's Vladimir. There's no Chiron at the bottom

677
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 2: of the screen says Vladimir. Yeah, Jim. There's no no

678
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 2: one explaining how Jim got here or what Vladimir did.

679
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 2: There's no nothing, Nothing is explained. It's just here's a scene,

680
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: here's another scene. Here's another scene, here's another scene. Nothing

681
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: necessarily leads into anything else. There's one part that scene

682
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 2: that Wiseman says he regrets because it was so he

683
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: calls it ham fisted. Where there's it's really hard to watch.

684
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 2: It is the main doctor, the main clinician who's a

685
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 2: recurring character whose name we have no idea who it is,

686
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: at least if you just watch the movie. He force

687
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: feeds a patient who stopped eating and through with a

688
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: naso gastric tube stuffed down his nose all the way

689
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 2: into his stomach. And this guy is just stoically taking

690
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 2: this like he's decided he is not going to eat.

691
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: They even give him a choice, so like you can

692
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: drink the super you're gonna we're gonna force feed you.

693
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 2: And he's like, you're gonna have to force feedb I

694
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: don't even think he says anything. Yeah, So there's a

695
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 2: there's a force feeding scene. You watch an emaciated man

696
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 2: who's starving himself. Force fed, and he intercut that part

697
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: with scenes from the man's preparation for burial right to

698
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 2: kind of show like, you know, he didn't make it,

699
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 2: he was successful in ending his own life through starvation.

700
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: And then also I think what Wiseman was trying to

701
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: get across was that he was, you know, he's really

702
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: being cared for. He's given like a decent burial and

703
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 2: like I think eight that he has eight pallbearers from

704
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: the institution and he's like treated very well compared especially

705
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 2: to this this force feeding through a tube down his nose,

706
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: and Wiseman thought that was a little ham fisted. That is,

707
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 2: that is the most cinematic part of the entire movie.

708
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: Nothing else is anywhere remotely like that. It's all just seen, seen,

709
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 2: scene seen, and like no explanation of who these people are,

710
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 2: what they are trying to say.

711
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 1: All right, should we take a break, Yeah, all right,

712
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: we'll take our second break and be back right after this.

713
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: So before we talk about the sort of court cases

714
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 1: and whether or not this film could be banned or exhibited.

715
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: It's interesting you talk about like it's just seen, seen,

716
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: but on the flip side of that, it is like

717
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: a such a carefully curated edit from all those hundreds

718
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: of hours of footage down to eighty three minutes. And

719
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that Weisman sort of talked

720
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: about was he didn't apparently he didn't. I don't know

721
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: if he came around, but he didn't even like the

722
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 1: term cinema verite because he felt it sounded too much

723
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: like you were just shooting stuff and putting it in

724
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: front of people. And he said, I am manipulating people,

725
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,359
Speaker 1: but it's through the edit. So while you may not

726
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: think that, I mean, I guess he was a master

727
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 1: at it because you probably shouldn't feel manipulated. But he's

728
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: still putting together that careful edit.

729
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting he is a master edit and

730
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 2: it's pretty remarkable. This was his first film and he

731
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 2: was that masterful at it.

732
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

733
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 2: So I said that it was crucial that he had

734
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: gotten permission to film, not only from the Lieutenant Governor

735
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 2: and the Superintendent of Bridgewater, but also from everyone he shot.

736
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 2: He got either written permission from them or verbal permission

737
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: audio visual I guess on camera them giving him permission

738
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: to use them in his film. So he was covered

739
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,439
Speaker 2: up in permission and no forget he was a law

740
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: professor too, and when the movie first came out, when

741
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: he finished, he showed it to the superintendent of Bridgewater

742
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: and to the lieutenant governor. They both apparently liked it,

743
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 2: according to Wiseman, But it wasn't until the movie came

744
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: out into wider release at the very beginning I think

745
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 2: New York Film Festival or something like that, and people

746
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 2: started responding by saying, like, this is barbaric, this treatment

747
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: at Bridgewater, what's wrong with the state of Massachusetts that

748
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: they suddenly turned on the film and Wiseman had on

749
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 2: his hands what would come to become a banned film.

750
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:03,760
Speaker 3: Yeah.

751
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: So one of the central players here is Elliott Richardson,

752
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: who was that lieutenant governor you referenced at the time,

753
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: had a loftier political aspiration, so when it came time

754
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: to run for an office higher than that, tried to

755
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: suppress this film, thinking it would count against him, and

756
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 1: it became sort of like Olivia calls it a political tool,

757
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 1: that's exactly what it became. Richardson would end up accusing

758
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: Weisman of double crossing the state, and it all sort

759
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: of hinged on the idea not like, oh, you showed

760
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: these awful things, but it hinged on the idea of

761
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: permissions in privacy was sort of the legal framework of it,

762
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: because the argument was, sure, you might have gotten the

763
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: permission from these men, but they are in no state

764
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 1: to give real permission.

765
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 3: And so there were a series of court.

766
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,839
Speaker 1: Cases over the years that sort of debated this, like

767
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 1: for many many years. In sixty eight, it was a judge,

768
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: spirit court judge named Harry Callous who found that it

769
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: breached privacy. And uh, this was interesting though, because like

770
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: I get that as a legal basis for argument, but

771
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: this judge said he kind of attacked the filmmaking process right,

772
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: and said it's just a hodgepodge of sequences with no

773
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 1: narrative and said each viewers left to his own devices

774
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: as to what's being portrayed and in what context. And

775
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: in the meantime, Weisman's over there going to a duh,

776
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,279
Speaker 1: Like that's what cinema verite is. But I thought that

777
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: was like, like this judge just said you should destroy

778
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: that should like ordered it to be destroyed.

779
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. He also called it a nightmare of ghoulish obscenities

780
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: and said the negative has to be burnt.

781
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 3: Very judge, judge yeah, And of.

782
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 2: Course Wiseman was like, well, I'm not burning my negative.

783
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to fight this and appeal it.

784
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 3: Oh sure.

785
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: That case, by the way, was the first one in

786
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: Massachusetts history where court affirmed that a right to privacy exists. Yeah,

787
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 2: it had never been affirmed in a court case, and

788
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 2: it was established in that case. So it was it was.

789
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 2: It was not cut and dry though, because Weisman has

790
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: First Amendment right to freedom of expression. So it became

791
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 2: freedom of expression versus freedom of privacy or right to privacy,

792
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 2: I should say, and it the I think the ACLU

793
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 2: got involved and they formed they submitted an amicus brief

794
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 2: that basically said, we think that this film has value,

795
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: but to a very limited number of people, specifically lawyers, judges,

796
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 2: law students, medical students, psychiatrists, people in those fields should

797
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,439
Speaker 2: be able to see this, and that is about it.

798
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: And so that kind of became the ruling shortly after

799
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 2: that initial you need to burn the negatives on appeal,

800
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 2: That's what they came up with.

801
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so for a number of years after that,

802
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: for those reasons, it was shown in like film class,

803
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: it was shown in medical schools, it.

804
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 3: Was shown in a library.

805
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was shown in libraries that was a great

806
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: place to see something like this, or in different institutions

807
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: would show this and say this is what not to do,

808
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: like you can't do stuff like this. Yeah, there was

809
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 1: a believe and this was sort of through the seventies

810
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: and then in the eighties some attorneys got involved that

811
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: said there were some suicides at Bridgewater in the mid

812
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 1: to late eighties.

813
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 3: There were some.

814
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: Class action lawsuits that followed by patients where the attorneys

815
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: said they could draw a direct line basically between a

816
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: patient dying by suicide and the fact that this film

817
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 1: wasn't shown, like it should be allowed to be shown

818
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 1: for these reasons.

819
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like had it been shown, there would have been

820
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: a public outcry for more refrains and that wouldn't have

821
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,959
Speaker 2: led you know, those reform might have prevented those suicides

822
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: at Bridgewater. And so Wiseman said that he never gave

823
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 2: up on the film being released to a wider audience,

824
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 2: and he saw that that was a good time to

825
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: bring this up again, and it actually worked out. He

826
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 2: got a judged to basically say like, Okay, this is

827
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 2: a yes, you should be able to show this, but

828
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 2: we need to blur the faces of the men out,

829
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 2: and Wiseman said, that's impossible. This is film, it's not video.

830
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,839
Speaker 3: And then also work with me here man, right, he.

831
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 2: Said, Also, it'll artistically ruin my film. You remember when

832
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 2: we did that one gorilla filming in the supermarket. We

833
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: ended up having to go back and blur every single

834
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 2: thing in the supermarket out except for us. I kind

835
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 2: of screwed it up a little bit. I could see

836
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 2: where he's coming from, right, And so he appealed again,

837
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: and finally they said, you know what, not a single

838
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: inmate at Bridgewater, and none of their families has ever

839
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: filed a formal objection to this film being shown, So

840
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 2: how about this just show it. It's unbanned officially by

841
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 2: the early nineties.

842
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: Right, that was a ninety one with Judge Andrew gil

843
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: Meyer of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. And then after

844
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: that it was still because Weisman is, like I said earlier,

845
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 1: very picky about how his films are exhibited, and so

846
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 1: it wasn't like it was just everywhere. I think PBS

847
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,760
Speaker 1: aired it in ninety three in full. You could always

848
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: buy the DVD from him from his website or if

849
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: there was a film festival or a film class, Like

850
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 1: I said, when I saw it was in college film

851
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 1: class from a VHS tape that the professor owned, probably

852
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: bought it from Weisman, and that's sort of how it

853
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: lived its life. I mean, it's interesting that this still

854
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: is a relevant topic and irrelevant film and you know,

855
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: is being talked about today, like in twenty twenty two.

856
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: I think in twenty seventeen he even tried to or

857
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: I think he successfully finally got it on his streaming

858
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: service called Canopy with a K, which is also kind

859
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 1: of through the library, which is awesome.

860
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can watch it for free if you sign

861
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: up for a Canopy account with your library card number. Yeah,

862
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: you can go watch I think all of Wiseman's films

863
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: all forty eight, which is pretty great. But there seems

864
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: to have been some direct effects of the film on Bridgewater,

865
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 2: but still from what it sounds like, there's still a

866
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: long way to go with Bridgewater too.

867
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they made a lot of strides. And

868
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: then they found even as recently as this year that

869
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: they were using what they call chemical restraints, basically just

870
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: doping people up more than they said they were doing.

871
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: So this is ongoing there. And then Wispan, like you said,

872
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: made forty eight films and they had names like hospital

873
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: or high School. And it's just sort of that very

874
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: bare bone cinema verite look at a single topic that's

875
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: sort of been his.

876
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 3: Bread and butter. I think it's a really cool thing.

877
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is really cool. He's just fascinated with institutions,

878
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 2: although he even says he has no idea how they work.

879
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 2: And I think he's even said he's not quite sure

880
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 2: he understands his film himself. Yeah, which is pretty awesome

881
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: to say.

882
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, and zup. Poor Films is named.

883
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: After his wife, who passed away a couple of years

884
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 1: ago at the age of ninety.

885
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 3: And he's, like you said, still going strong.

886
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,959
Speaker 2: Yeah. What's his latest one City Hall?

887
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah about Boston City Hall.

888
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it came out in twenty twenty.

889
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 3: Pretty cool.

890
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: Well, if you want to know more about Titty Cut Follies,

891
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: you should probably go watch it, but be warned it

892
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 2: is really rough, even though it is great in the

893
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: term of a cinema file would use it. How about

894
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 2: that a cinophile I always had an extra syllable, So

895
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 2: that of course means it's time for listener.

896
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: Now I'm going to call this follow up on the

897
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: effect of altruism. One of our favorite things is when

898
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 1: we talk about a topic and someone from that topic.

899
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 3: Gets in touch and as a listener. Yeah for real,

900
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:57,400
Speaker 3: and that's.

901
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: What happened in this case with Grace Adams. Guys, we

902
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 1: are so excited that you covered effective altruism and you

903
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: did so wonderfully, and Grace is with giving what we

904
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: can giving what we can. Would love to give your

905
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 1: listeners a free book on effective altruism if you include

906
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: this link in the show notes, which we don't have

907
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: but we'll just say it here. People can opt to

908
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: have a free book sent to them, including the precipice

909
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: by Toby Ord anywhere in the world. We love sending

910
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: out books and things is a great way for people

911
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: to engage more with the ideas. Wishing you all the

912
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 1: best from a big personal fan, Grace Adams, And oh

913
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: I should have made this into a bit lee Should

914
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: I do.

915
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 3: That real quick?

916
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 2: Yeah?

917
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 3: All right, so you just talk to people while I

918
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 3: do that.

919
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,439
Speaker 2: Oh okay, well, hey, everybody, I.

920
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 3: Actually we could edit this together.

921
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 2: But Toby Ord wrote in and said the same thing too.

922
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 2: But he also sent us well wishes and said we

923
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 2: did a good job on the Effective Altruism episode, which

924
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 2: I thought was pretty good because I like to think

925
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 2: we're fairly fair handed with it. We weren't too over

926
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 2: the top a subjective, don't you think?

927
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: I think so, although we did get one email from

928
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,919
Speaker 1: someone that's like kind of acted like we didn't point

929
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: out any of the downsides, which she disagree with.

930
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: I disagree with that. But anyway, how's that Bitley coming, Chuck?

931
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 3: Okay, my friend, I am done. I have the bit Lee.

932
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: If you go to bit bit dot l y slash

933
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: s y s k give you can get your free book.

934
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:27,959
Speaker 2: Yes, pretty great free books on effective altruism and free

935
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 2: books buy Toby ord on Existential Risks, which I mean,

936
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: come on. If you want to get in touch with us,

937
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 2: like Grace from GiveWell did, we would love to hear

938
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 2: from you. You can send us an email whether you

939
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 2: want to give away free books not. It's okay, you

940
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: don't have to send it off to Stuff Podcasts at

941
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio dot.

942
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

943
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

944
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.