WEBVTT - 10. Jon's Theory (Part 1) 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.240 Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:07.320 not be suitable for all listeners. This episode also discusses suicide. 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:10.960 You can reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at nine. 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:11.400 To eighty eight. 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:14.920 A quick note, this episode is packed with so much 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:22.960 detail we're splitting it into two parts from iHeartRadio and 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.599 Neon thirty three. I'm John Walzac and this is Missing 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.000 in Arizona, the story of a man who disappeared after 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.199 allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.920 home and escaping into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:46.840 I'm Hunting Robert Fisher and I Need your Help, Part one. 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:50.559 By April two thousand and one, the demons of Chaos 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:53.959 are tightening their grip around Robert Fisher's neck. Try as 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.360 he might, he's unable to pry free their fingers. They 0:00:57.440 --> 0:01:01.240 start choking him slowly. In nineteen eighty, when he injures 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.320 his back, for the next sixteen years, he's in pain. 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.399 By two thousand and one, he needs spinal surgery, but 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:11.399 he's terrified it'll paralyze him. He also hurts his knee. 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.360 He's losing control of his body. He almost loses control 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.440 of his family too. In nineteen ninety nine, he goes 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:22.800 to a massage parlor seeking pain relief. Instead, he finds temptation. 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.600 He cheats on Mary with a masseuse. Then he confesses 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:30.000 and threatens suicide if Mary leaves him. They patch up 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.000 their marriage, but the demons of lust loom just out 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.480 of view, and apparently once again they seduce him. Anew, 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.640 this man so intent on controlling others is unable to 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.759 control himself. If in the lead up to the murders, 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:47.080 Robert cheats again and Mary finds out this could be 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.440 the spark that triggers his nihilistic demons to light the 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:54.840 fire of total annihilation. But does Robert actually have another 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:59.400 fling or an affair? Circumstantial evidence says yes. He tells 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.120 a friend that things are quote clicking between him and 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.559 a coworker. He doesn't say anything else except that she's 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:09.120 in his unit. He tells a colleague, a cardiologist, that 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:12.560 he's having marital trouble. Several times it seems like he's 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:16.040 going to say more confess, but he backs off. The 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:20.480 final two months, he appears nervous, anxious. The cardiologist thinks 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.520 Robert had an affair, just not with a coworker that 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.960 would be tough to hide. He says. Hospitals are chit chatty, 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:32.200 tight knit places. People notice things, people talk. On April tenth, 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.280 the day the house explodes, Scottsdale Detective TJ. Juran interviews 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:39.600 Robert's boss at the Mayo Clinic Hospital in Phoenix. For 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:44.040 privacy's sake, let's call her Dolly. From a police report quote. 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:46.480 I asked Dolly if it was possible Fisher was having 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.280 an affair with a female from work or outside of work. 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.160 At first, Dolly denied any knowledge of an alleged affair, 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:54.720 but within a few moments should began to cry. Dolly 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.640 then advised me that approximately six to seven weeks prior, 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.280 Fisher confided in her. Dolly related to Fisher appeared depressed, 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.720 so she had a talk with him after work. Dolly 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.680 also knew that Fisher had a urinary tract infection. During 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.480 December two thousand, Fisher related that he was having a 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.960 very hard time with the situation involving another female. Fisher 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:14.840 went on to tell Dolly that he had gone to 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:17.639 a massage therapist because of his back. Fisher said he 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.840 obtained the infection from the therapist. During the session, Fisher 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.160 related that he did not have sex with the therapist, 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.480 but that things did begin to get out of hand. 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:28.160 Fisher backed off from the therapist and left because he 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:31.520 was concerned about his wife, Mary finding out. Fisher did 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:34.040 not know whether he should tell Mary or his pastor 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:37.360 about the situation with the therapist. Fisher also felt that 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.000 coworkers in the calf Lab had been talking about him 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:43.440 behind his back. Dolly related that Fisher never told her 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:45.240 the name of the therapist. 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:49.240 Let's break this down first, Robert appears to admit to 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.360 a new affair. He questions whether he should confess to 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.840 his pastor and Mary, both of whom already know about 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.200 his previous infidelity in nineteen ninety nine, so he can 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.400 only be refered ring to something new. He reveals this 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.520 to Dolly only six to seven weeks before the murders, 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.520 roughly the end of February two thousand and one. He 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.520 says he's quote having a very hard time with the 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:15.360 situation involving another female, which sounds more like a full 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.560 blown affair and less like a one time fling. He 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.599 claims the woman is a messuse. This later leads to 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.599 confusion with many people, including police, mixing up his nineteen 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:28.880 ninety nine infidelity with a different affair in two thousand 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.000 or two thousand and one. I suspect that Robert is 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:35.920 confessing the big truth he cheated again while hiding details 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.600 like the woman's identity using his ninety nine infidelity as cover, 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.719 or that Dolly's lying she's the woman. But that's for 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.839 another episode. For now, don't focus on who, focus on 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:51.479 the binary. Does Robert cheat again after nineteen ninety nine? 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.839 The answer appears to be yes, and his mystery ailment 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.360 from December two thousand appears not to be a urinary 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:04.400 tract infect uti, not prostatitis, not a kidney infection, but 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:09.080 an STI or sexually transmitted infection. Robert tells a coworker 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.680 he's never been so sick. He's scared. He visits a 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.400 doctor and has an MRI. The co worker is suspicious. 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.800 Quote I've never known anybody that got a urinary tract 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.040 infection that was so sick, unless they were like septic, 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.960 and then they'd be in a hospital. Robert tells another coworker, 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.279 the cardiologist, that a masseuse gave him the infection, but 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.800 quote it was not from a sexual affair. Robert is 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.000 paranoid that coworkers are looking at his medical records, and 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:39.479 he thinks people at church know that he cheated again, 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.719 which begs the question why how could they? Unless he 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:47.360 confesses maybe to his pastor, and worries the pastor will 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:51.520 say something. One Sunday night in December two thousand, Robert 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:55.040 is called into work late around eleven PM. He's quiet, 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.520 doesn't say anything, doesn't look good. The next day, he 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.520 calls in sick. First tells police quote, it's really unlike 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.960 Bob to call in sick unless he's really really sick. 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:11.320 By this point, Robert's in pain, scared of surgery, disability, paralysis, 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:15.160 sick with the possible STI, paranoid that Mary will find out. 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:20.960 He's losing control quickly. What's the spark though? What finally 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:25.000 detonates the House of Fisher Remember On Friday March thirtieth, 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.040 eleven days before the murders, Robert and Mary spend the 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:33.200 day together alone into wilderness on Robert's ATV. They seem fine. 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:36.320 The next day they attend a wedding in Sedona. Again, 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.240 they seem fine, but something changes. Between April first and 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:44.039 April fourth. On April fourth, Robert shows up at church 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.719 looking for Mary and the kids. Mary seems afraid of him. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.479 They've had generic marital trouble for months. It's likely not 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:55.400 enough to trigger the murders. So what is If Robert's 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.880 loss of control is the accelerant, what lights it a flame? 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.560 While reporting this story, I learned something new, something critical. 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:07.800 Right before the murders. Mary finds out that she has syphilis. 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.920 I would never report this based on rumor. I'm only 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:13.880 doing so because I learn about it from a reliable source. 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:18.200 This is the spark I think. By all accounts, Mary 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.400 is faithful to Robert, so she could only get syphilis 0:07:21.440 --> 0:07:25.080 from him. When does she find out? Obviously I don't 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.160 have access to her medical records, but I'm curious whether 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.040 or not she had a doctor's appointment between Monday, April 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:34.600 second and Wednesday, April fourth, because she learns about it 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.640 right before the murders, and there's no way she'd be 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:40.680 out on March thirtieth writing around with Robert on an 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.920 ATV having a jolly good time. If she knew not 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:46.840 only that he cheated again, but that he gave her syphilis, 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.520 she would be done and Robert would know it. Remember, 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.520 the number one cause of familicide is family breakdown. This 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.680 would be the snapping point, the moment Robert loses control 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:01.760 of everything that matters his health, his family, the spark. 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.160 Knowing that Mary had syphilis, which has never been reported, 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:09.040 what can we learn from it? For an expert opinion, 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:10.560 I turned to doctor. 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:15.560 Joseph cherbe An, an infectious diseases physician at Washington University 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:16.400 in Saint Louis. 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.640 The first thing to note is that Robert's UTI style 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:24.720 symptoms are a better fit for other STIs not syphilis. 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.760 In sexually active individuals of that age. Gonnery and chlamydia 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:31.920 are at the top of my list, especially if they 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.679 are having signs of pain, with your nation, frequent yourination, 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.800 anything that people would say is a sign of a UTI. 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.400 So Robert possibly has gonnerihea or chlamydia. 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:43.839 But you have to. 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:47.640 Remember that sti's travel I packs, so if an individual 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:51.720 has syphilis, they are more likely to acquire chlamydia, gonneria. 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:55.960 HIV, GONERIEA. Symptoms typically manifest within one to three weeks 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.480 of exposure. For chlamydia, it's one to three months. So 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:03.599 if EBERTSI alleged Uti is in fact gonerhea or chlamydia, 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:07.000 he would have been exposed, meaning he cheated again sometime 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:10.520 between September and December two thousand, which lines up with 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.559 when his back pain intensifies and his personality starts changing 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:18.200 around October two thousand. Maybe he goes to a massage 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:21.640 parlor for pain relief and is offered sex again, or 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.840 maybe he's having an affair with a coworker. Whatever the truth, 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.640 he hides it from Mary, the cheating, the STI. She 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.800 knows he's sick, but not with gonerrhea or chlamydia. Thankfully 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.040 he doesn't transmit it to her. What about syphilis, though, 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.520 which at some point he does. How is it transmitted? 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:40.680 What's the timeline? 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.080 The most common means in which individuals contract syphilis is 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:50.240 actually through direct contact with a lesion, typically wet lesions, 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.800 or sexual contact with an individual who has underlying syphil as. 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.800 Within three to six weeks, a person exposed to the 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:01.559 bacterium that causes syphilis develop helps a raised lesion called 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:06.040 a shanker. This is stage one primary syphilis, and then 0:10:06.120 --> 0:10:07.360 that shanker resolves. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.720 Most people may not notice the shanker, especially if it's 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:13.920 a part of the body that you are unable to see. 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.240 So if that shanker develops, for example, within the folds 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:21.760 of the vulva or within the rectum if you are 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.200 having anal sex, then it is difficult for people to 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.400 see the shanker and most people won't notice it. The 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.359 other issue with the shanker is oftentimes it is painless 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.679 and it goes away on its own, So most people 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.280 may think that they have some ulceration, they rub their 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.720 skin the wrong way, or there's maybe an allergic reaction, 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.040 they self treat, it goes away and they don't think 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.600 anything of it. That is why most people will present 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:48.680 with secondary syphilis that develops at around three months after inoculation. 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:52.800 You develop most typically a rash. That rash can appear 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:55.520 like any other rash. In the textbooks, they describe it 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:57.240 as being on the palms and soles of the feet, 0:10:57.360 --> 0:10:59.160 But I have seen people who look like they're having 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:02.600 a massive allergic reaction have a maculum popular eruption on 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:06.240 their chest, on their face. Some people get alopecia's well 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.120 where they could get hair loss. This is where most 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:12.199 people will present because they feel swollen lymph nodes they 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.400 feel a key, they have a rash. 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:18.559 So they seek medical treatment. Thankfully, if caught early, syphilis 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:22.080 is highly treatable with penicillin, but many people don't catch 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.560 it in the primary stage, when they have a shanker 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.440 a painless lesion, they may not even be able to see. 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:30.360 This is often when they transmit it to sex partners. 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.840 Robert apparently passes it to Mary sometime in the six 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.800 months before the murders, dating back again to October two thousand. 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.000 Mary apparently finds out in April two thousand and one. 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:46.040 By this point she likely has secondary syphilis, which if untreated, 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:50.200 can progress to stage three latent syphilis and later stage 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:56.280 four tertiary syphilis, which can be much more severe, causing aneurysms, meningitis, 0:11:56.320 --> 0:12:01.600 and other formidable symptoms neurological symptoms. I knew this, but 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:03.360 what I didn't know is that. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.080 Neurologic manifestations of syphilis can occur at any stage of syphilis, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:11.480 whether it's primary, secondary, tertiary. You can get involvement of 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.320 the guys in which you can have vision changes. You 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.400 can get hearing loss. Most commonly, people report ringing in 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.680 their ears or muffled hearing, and you can get meninjo, 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:27.280 vascular disease or meningitis, unrelenting headaches, next stiffness, altered mental status. 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.040 Altered mental status which can present. 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:34.480 As irritability, memory, loss of personality changes, insomnia, and later 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:37.760 compaired judgment and emotional liability. 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:38.920 Severe mood swings. 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:41.280 Given the nature of the story, I have to ask you, 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:46.439 is psychosis a possibility, propensity for violence, any other serious 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:47.760 mental health concerns. 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.280 With respect to neurosyphilis, we have had some individuals who 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:57.760 have developed altered mental status, including hallucinations, auditory hallucinations, visual hallucinations. 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:02.479 There have been individuals who have developed illusions and psychiatric manifestations. 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.040 It's tough to measure the frequency of neurological symptoms in 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.960 patients with primary or secondary syphilis, in part because they 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.760 can be tough to diagnose. Syphilis is known as the 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.079 great imitator. It mimics other conditions, and that's. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.040 Why syphilis is such a humbling disease. It does present 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:21.800 in fifty million different ways. It's one of the oldest 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.280 and most historic diseases, and it's why it's my favorite 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.280 bacteria by far, by far, the best bacteria you could 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.000 fight me. It is the best bacteria because it alludes 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:30.920 us to this day. 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:35.120 In summary, Robert likely cheats on Mary again. In late 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:40.120 two thousand. He apparently catches gonorrhea or chlamydia and syphilis, 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.400 which he transmits to Mary, who learns about it right 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:48.480 before the murders, likely triggering them. Also, neurological symptoms can 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.120 manifest during any stage of syphilis, meaning they could have 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.520 affected Robert in the lead up to, even during the murders. 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.520 I'm not saying this is my theory, but it. 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:02.760 Is possible, especially if left untreated, that this progress over 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:07.320 time to a state in which there was altered mental status. 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:13.120 There is a irritability, and that could possibly be a 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:34.920 manifestation of neurosophas. 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:41.920 I'm now going to lay out five scenarios of what 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:44.960 could have happened to Robert Fisher his fate in order 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.720 of least to most likely in my opinion, which is 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.920 the key phrase, my opinion. I don't expect you to 0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:55.240 necessarily agree. In fact, I encourage dissent. Battle it out 0:14:55.280 --> 0:15:01.040 on Reddit number five Grizzly Adams theory. Robert Fisher is 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.320 living off the land twenty three years later, surviving in 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:09.120 the wild. Verdict no way. This is so ridiculous. I'm 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.200 not going to spend too much time on it. What 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:14.880 about Eric Rudolph, you say the Olympic Park bomber Well. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.720 Rudolph survived for five years, not twenty three, in a 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:23.040 more hospitable environment, the mountains of western North Carolina. He 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.600 didn't have a bad back, and as Detective TJ. Juran 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.400 wisely notes, he had help. He was a right wing ideologue, 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:31.120 a folk. 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.120 Hero, extremeist living in the area helped him, so that 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:35.320 was to his benefit. 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:36.480 Nobody here is. 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.320 Going to help Robert Fisher after a man just annihilate 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:39.960 his family. 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.560 Number four died in the wild not by suicide, theory, 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.360 Robert Fisher fled into the wilderness and died from something 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:53.480 other than suicide, a snake bite, drowning, tumbling down a ravine, 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:56.800 a rock hitting his head, starvation, a heart attack, water 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:03.320 borne disease, anything but suicide. Verdict possible but unlikely. None 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.200 of Fisher's remains or belongings were ever located. Maybe that 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:11.120 seems unsurprising. It is, after all, a huge expanse of land. 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:16.680 Fair but not locating something is abnormal, not impossible, just 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.440 not as rare as you might think. People die and 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:23.000 disappear in the wilderness all the time, including in places 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.600 much more remote than Arizona. They are usually found at 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:30.280 some point. For example, in nineteen seventy six, a man 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.920 named Gary Sutherden vanished in an isolated part of Alaska 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.240 above the Arctic Circle. In nineteen ninety seven, a hunter 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.240 found his skull, though it wasn't matched to him until 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.720 twenty twenty two. Also in ninety seven, rock climbers in 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:47.320 rural Nevada found a body buried beneath rocks. In twenty 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.040 twenty three, it was matched to a missing woman named 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.800 Lorena Moseley. In nineteen seventy seven, a nineteen year old 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.520 named Douglas Muller was abducted in Scottsdale. There were multiple 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.680 ransom demands which his parents tried to pay, but no 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:03.800 one picked up the money. Muller was never heard from again. 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.040 In two thousand and seven, a hiker found of femur 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.320 at twenty three nine ninety three North seventy fourth Place 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:14.160 in Scottsdale. If that sounds familiar, it's because the Fishers 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.520 lived on the same road North seventy fourth Place. The 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.640 Femur case fell to a detective named Hugh Lockerbee. Lockerbye 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.560 was proactive. With the help of Arizona's crime lab, he 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.280 matched the femur to Muller. It seems to have been 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.320 dug up in the early two thousands, likely by animals 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.520 rummaging through a clandestin burial spot in a rugged part 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:38.359 of North Scottsdale. The homicide remains unsolved now. Of course, 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:42.360 thousands of people disappear in the wilderness and are never found, 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.119 but this seems not to be a major issue. In 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:49.040 the area around which Robert abandoned Mary's Forerunner, many people 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.240 have died there, but few remain missing. 0:17:51.520 --> 0:17:55.280 We've seen hundreds of people come to the Rim country 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.840 just to be and God's country when they met their demise. 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:01.600 Former Helix County detective Brian Havy. 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.440 We found people hanging out in the woods that were 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.760 from the valley, all over the place up here. And 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.600 why they come up here to kill themselves, I don't know. 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.800 Being God's country, I guess really hundreds of people, yes, literally, 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.680 we found him on top of four peaks. We found 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.680 him up here in the woods around Payson. We had 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.280 one guy that dropped his van off at top of 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.240 the rim on two sixty and hiked five miles down 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.560 in towards Cold Courts, sat down with a case of 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:32.480 beer and started drinking, and hung himself from a low 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:35.760 hanging juniper bush. And we didn't find him till two 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.480 years later when a couple of nurses were hiking in 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:42.120 the woods and found some bones that they could positively 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.720 identify as human bones, and we went out and I 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:50.159 found the skull on that probably two one hundred and 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.120 fifty yards from the tree that he hung himself on. 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:57.280 So what you most commonly see in terms of suicides 0:18:57.320 --> 0:18:59.639 in that area death bite, guns, hanging. 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.040 I've seen it all different mannerisms. Hanging seems to be 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:07.439 a popular one. I've seen guys hang themselves with the 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:10.240 cable that they'd used to hold their dog. I've seen 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:14.800 people hang themselves with shoer bootlaces. Really doesn't take that much. 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:16.840 And these are people that are just hanging in the 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:17.639 woods on trees. 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.679 Yeah, yeah, I've seen one. Lady wanted to be found, 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.040 so she dropped her daughter off at Payton Police Department 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:27.879 with a note pinned to her chest and said go 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.680 in there. And she had written across the note a 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:34.280 little pad about six by six about ten different ways 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:37.400 where she would be, and we had to really work 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:40.480 our way through that little piece of paper and figure 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:44.160 out directions. As we pulled into her campsite, she looked 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:46.320 right at us and put a nine milimeter to her 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:50.360 head and shot herself. She didn't want the animals to eat, 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:51.600 or she wanted to be found. 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.800 In terms of missing people, if you got to report 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.600 that somebody was up in that area and was suicidal, 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.760 can you remember cases where you were not to locate 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:02.840 their remains? Sometimes it would take a year or two. 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.240 Do any cases come to mind that you weren't able 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.640 to find a body. 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.000 Not that I recall. Eventually, just like the guy that 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.320 parked on top of the rim, we had no direction 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.840 to travel or anything like that until those nurses stumbled 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:20.119 upon human bones, and fortunately if all of my instincts 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:23.119 and walked right to the skull some two hundred and 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:26.600 fifty yards away up a little canyon where the coyotes 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.040 had drug it. When they hang themselves, that's the first 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.600 thing that rots un falls off, and if you're on 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.800 a slope, it's going to roll downhill, So it makes sense. 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.520 It's like a bowling ball. It's going to roll and 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.399 then the wildlife will take it someplace where they're not 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.200 going to be seen, and that's exactly what they did. 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:48.120 How often have unidentified remains been located that you guys 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:49.680 thought this might be Robert Fisher? 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:53.119 None that I know of that we thought was absolutely 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.840 Robert Fasher. And the remains that we have found, I 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.159 don't think we have any unsolved currently. We've been aeople 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:03.120 to identify most all of the remains that we found 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.240 in Heila County to recap. 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.480 In his twenty seven year career, Haviy and his colleagues 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:11.679 found hundreds of bodies in remote parts of HeLa County. 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.040 He can't recall any case in which someone was missing 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.880 and or suicidal and wasn't found at some point. He's 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:23.440 unaware of any still unidentified remains that could match Robert Fisher. However, 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.080 if Fisher died, his remains were likely scattered by wild 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:32.200 animals or not. HeLa County supervisor would he Klein tells 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:33.520 me an interesting story. 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.040 One time we had a couple that was south a 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:38.560 young and they were down on one of those little roads. 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:40.399 It was a man and a woman. They had a 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:43.560 camp sitting there. They had a dog too. She shot 0:21:43.680 --> 0:21:46.959 him and then shot herself. It was late in the 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:49.919 fall when they figured when she killed him. We didn't 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.679 find him until the late in the spring. The bears 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:57.720 that actually came out and they ate her and he 0:21:57.800 --> 0:21:58.720 was still intact. 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:00.960 I'm assuming you don't know the answer to this, but 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:02.959 do you have any idea why the bear did not 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:03.920 eat one of them? 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:08.600 No, there's nothing but bones scattered around there, and obviously 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:10.560 the dog had been eaten on it too, because the 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:11.840 dog was there still alive. 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:15.719 A bear eats one body, not the other. One body 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:20.959 reduced to bones, scattered, the other intact. Chaos. I decide 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.320 to drive to Tucson to meet up with Bruce Anderson, 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:27.400 a forensic anthropologist with the Pima County Medical Examiner's Office, 0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.720 which for many years handled cases out of nearby HeLa 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:31.480 County in that. 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.600 Area around young If Robert Fischer died in the woods, 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:37.240 if he died in a cave, can you walk me through. 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:38.840 I want to say, the decomposition and. 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:41.440 Calendar, but can you give me an idea within twelve hour, 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:43.880 twenty four hours a week, a month, a year, twenty years? 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:46.439 So he disappeared in April. So it'll be no snow. 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:48.639 There might be some residual snow, but it's not going 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:51.880 to have snow, so the temperatures might even in April 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.320 up there, they might be close to freezing. So if 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:56.560