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Speaker 1: Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may

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Speaker 1: not be suitable for all listeners. This episode also discusses suicide.

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Speaker 1: You can reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at nine.

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Speaker 2: To eighty eight.

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Speaker 1: A quick note, this episode is packed with so much

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Speaker 1: detail we're splitting it into two parts from iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Neon thirty three. I'm John Walzac and this is Missing

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Speaker 1: in Arizona, the story of a man who disappeared after

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Speaker 1: allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban

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Speaker 1: home and escaping into the wilderness. Twenty three years later,

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Speaker 1: I'm Hunting Robert Fisher and I Need your Help, Part one.

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Speaker 1: By April two thousand and one, the demons of Chaos

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Speaker 1: are tightening their grip around Robert Fisher's neck. Try as

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Speaker 1: he might, he's unable to pry free their fingers. They

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Speaker 1: start choking him slowly. In nineteen eighty, when he injures

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Speaker 1: his back, for the next sixteen years, he's in pain.

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Speaker 1: By two thousand and one, he needs spinal surgery, but

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Speaker 1: he's terrified it'll paralyze him. He also hurts his knee.

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Speaker 1: He's losing control of his body. He almost loses control

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Speaker 1: of his family too. In nineteen ninety nine, he goes

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Speaker 1: to a massage parlor seeking pain relief. Instead, he finds temptation.

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Speaker 1: He cheats on Mary with a masseuse. Then he confesses

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Speaker 1: and threatens suicide if Mary leaves him. They patch up

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Speaker 1: their marriage, but the demons of lust loom just out

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Speaker 1: of view, and apparently once again they seduce him. Anew,

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Speaker 1: this man so intent on controlling others is unable to

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Speaker 1: control himself. If in the lead up to the murders,

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Speaker 1: Robert cheats again and Mary finds out this could be

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Speaker 1: the spark that triggers his nihilistic demons to light the

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Speaker 1: fire of total annihilation. But does Robert actually have another

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Speaker 1: fling or an affair? Circumstantial evidence says yes. He tells

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Speaker 1: a friend that things are quote clicking between him and

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Speaker 1: a coworker. He doesn't say anything else except that she's

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Speaker 1: in his unit. He tells a colleague, a cardiologist, that

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Speaker 1: he's having marital trouble. Several times it seems like he's

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Speaker 1: going to say more confess, but he backs off. The

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Speaker 1: final two months, he appears nervous, anxious. The cardiologist thinks

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Speaker 1: Robert had an affair, just not with a coworker that

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Speaker 1: would be tough to hide. He says. Hospitals are chit chatty,

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Speaker 1: tight knit places. People notice things, people talk. On April tenth,

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Speaker 1: the day the house explodes, Scottsdale Detective TJ. Juran interviews

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Speaker 1: Robert's boss at the Mayo Clinic Hospital in Phoenix. For

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Speaker 1: privacy's sake, let's call her Dolly. From a police report quote.

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Speaker 3: I asked Dolly if it was possible Fisher was having

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Speaker 3: an affair with a female from work or outside of work.

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Speaker 3: At first, Dolly denied any knowledge of an alleged affair,

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Speaker 3: but within a few moments should began to cry. Dolly

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Speaker 3: then advised me that approximately six to seven weeks prior,

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Speaker 3: Fisher confided in her. Dolly related to Fisher appeared depressed,

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Speaker 3: so she had a talk with him after work. Dolly

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Speaker 3: also knew that Fisher had a urinary tract infection. During

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Speaker 3: December two thousand, Fisher related that he was having a

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Speaker 3: very hard time with the situation involving another female. Fisher

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Speaker 3: went on to tell Dolly that he had gone to

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Speaker 3: a massage therapist because of his back. Fisher said he

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Speaker 3: obtained the infection from the therapist. During the session, Fisher

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Speaker 3: related that he did not have sex with the therapist,

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Speaker 3: but that things did begin to get out of hand.

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Speaker 3: Fisher backed off from the therapist and left because he

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Speaker 3: was concerned about his wife, Mary finding out. Fisher did

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Speaker 3: not know whether he should tell Mary or his pastor

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Speaker 3: about the situation with the therapist. Fisher also felt that

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Speaker 3: coworkers in the calf Lab had been talking about him

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Speaker 3: behind his back. Dolly related that Fisher never told her

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Speaker 3: the name of the therapist.

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Speaker 1: Let's break this down first, Robert appears to admit to

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Speaker 1: a new affair. He questions whether he should confess to

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Speaker 1: his pastor and Mary, both of whom already know about

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Speaker 1: his previous infidelity in nineteen ninety nine, so he can

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Speaker 1: only be refered ring to something new. He reveals this

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Speaker 1: to Dolly only six to seven weeks before the murders,

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Speaker 1: roughly the end of February two thousand and one. He

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Speaker 1: says he's quote having a very hard time with the

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Speaker 1: situation involving another female, which sounds more like a full

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Speaker 1: blown affair and less like a one time fling. He

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Speaker 1: claims the woman is a messuse. This later leads to

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Speaker 1: confusion with many people, including police, mixing up his nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nine infidelity with a different affair in two thousand

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Speaker 1: or two thousand and one. I suspect that Robert is

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Speaker 1: confessing the big truth he cheated again while hiding details

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Speaker 1: like the woman's identity using his ninety nine infidelity as cover,

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Speaker 1: or that Dolly's lying she's the woman. But that's for

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Speaker 1: another episode. For now, don't focus on who, focus on

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Speaker 1: the binary. Does Robert cheat again after nineteen ninety nine?

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Speaker 1: The answer appears to be yes, and his mystery ailment

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Speaker 1: from December two thousand appears not to be a urinary

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Speaker 1: tract infect uti, not prostatitis, not a kidney infection, but

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Speaker 1: an STI or sexually transmitted infection. Robert tells a coworker

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Speaker 1: he's never been so sick. He's scared. He visits a

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Speaker 1: doctor and has an MRI. The co worker is suspicious.

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Speaker 1: Quote I've never known anybody that got a urinary tract

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Speaker 1: infection that was so sick, unless they were like septic,

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Speaker 1: and then they'd be in a hospital. Robert tells another coworker,

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Speaker 1: the cardiologist, that a masseuse gave him the infection, but

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Speaker 1: quote it was not from a sexual affair. Robert is

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Speaker 1: paranoid that coworkers are looking at his medical records, and

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Speaker 1: he thinks people at church know that he cheated again,

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Speaker 1: which begs the question why how could they? Unless he

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Speaker 1: confesses maybe to his pastor, and worries the pastor will

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Speaker 1: say something. One Sunday night in December two thousand, Robert

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Speaker 1: is called into work late around eleven PM. He's quiet,

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Speaker 1: doesn't say anything, doesn't look good. The next day, he

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Speaker 1: calls in sick. First tells police quote, it's really unlike

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Speaker 1: Bob to call in sick unless he's really really sick.

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Speaker 1: By this point, Robert's in pain, scared of surgery, disability, paralysis,

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Speaker 1: sick with the possible STI, paranoid that Mary will find out.

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Speaker 1: He's losing control quickly. What's the spark though? What finally

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Speaker 1: detonates the House of Fisher Remember On Friday March thirtieth,

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Speaker 1: eleven days before the murders, Robert and Mary spend the

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Speaker 1: day together alone into wilderness on Robert's ATV. They seem fine.

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Speaker 1: The next day they attend a wedding in Sedona. Again,

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Speaker 1: they seem fine, but something changes. Between April first and

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Speaker 1: April fourth. On April fourth, Robert shows up at church

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Speaker 1: looking for Mary and the kids. Mary seems afraid of him.

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Speaker 1: They've had generic marital trouble for months. It's likely not

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Speaker 1: enough to trigger the murders. So what is If Robert's

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Speaker 1: loss of control is the accelerant, what lights it a flame?

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Speaker 1: While reporting this story, I learned something new, something critical.

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Speaker 1: Right before the murders. Mary finds out that she has syphilis.

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Speaker 1: I would never report this based on rumor. I'm only

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Speaker 1: doing so because I learn about it from a reliable source.

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Speaker 1: This is the spark I think. By all accounts, Mary

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Speaker 1: is faithful to Robert, so she could only get syphilis

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Speaker 1: from him. When does she find out? Obviously I don't

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Speaker 1: have access to her medical records, but I'm curious whether

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Speaker 1: or not she had a doctor's appointment between Monday, April

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Speaker 1: second and Wednesday, April fourth, because she learns about it

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Speaker 1: right before the murders, and there's no way she'd be

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Speaker 1: out on March thirtieth writing around with Robert on an

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Speaker 1: ATV having a jolly good time. If she knew not

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Speaker 1: only that he cheated again, but that he gave her syphilis,

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Speaker 1: she would be done and Robert would know it. Remember,

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Speaker 1: the number one cause of familicide is family breakdown. This

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Speaker 1: would be the snapping point, the moment Robert loses control

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Speaker 1: of everything that matters his health, his family, the spark.

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Speaker 1: Knowing that Mary had syphilis, which has never been reported,

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Speaker 1: what can we learn from it? For an expert opinion,

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Speaker 1: I turned to doctor.

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Speaker 4: Joseph cherbe An, an infectious diseases physician at Washington University

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Speaker 4: in Saint Louis.

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Speaker 1: The first thing to note is that Robert's UTI style

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Speaker 1: symptoms are a better fit for other STIs not syphilis.

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Speaker 4: In sexually active individuals of that age. Gonnery and chlamydia

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Speaker 4: are at the top of my list, especially if they

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Speaker 4: are having signs of pain, with your nation, frequent yourination,

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Speaker 4: anything that people would say is a sign of a UTI.

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Speaker 1: So Robert possibly has gonnerihea or chlamydia.

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Speaker 5: But you have to.

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Speaker 4: Remember that sti's travel I packs, so if an individual

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Speaker 4: has syphilis, they are more likely to acquire chlamydia, gonneria.

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Speaker 1: HIV, GONERIEA. Symptoms typically manifest within one to three weeks

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Speaker 1: of exposure. For chlamydia, it's one to three months. So

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Speaker 1: if EBERTSI alleged Uti is in fact gonerhea or chlamydia,

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Speaker 1: he would have been exposed, meaning he cheated again sometime

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Speaker 1: between September and December two thousand, which lines up with

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Speaker 1: when his back pain intensifies and his personality starts changing

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Speaker 1: around October two thousand. Maybe he goes to a massage

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Speaker 1: parlor for pain relief and is offered sex again, or

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Speaker 1: maybe he's having an affair with a coworker. Whatever the truth,

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Speaker 1: he hides it from Mary, the cheating, the STI. She

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Speaker 1: knows he's sick, but not with gonerrhea or chlamydia. Thankfully

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Speaker 1: he doesn't transmit it to her. What about syphilis, though,

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Speaker 1: which at some point he does. How is it transmitted?

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Speaker 1: What's the timeline?

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Speaker 4: The most common means in which individuals contract syphilis is

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Speaker 4: actually through direct contact with a lesion, typically wet lesions,

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Speaker 4: or sexual contact with an individual who has underlying syphil as.

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Speaker 1: Within three to six weeks, a person exposed to the

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Speaker 1: bacterium that causes syphilis develop helps a raised lesion called

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Speaker 1: a shanker. This is stage one primary syphilis, and then

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Speaker 1: that shanker resolves.

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Speaker 4: Most people may not notice the shanker, especially if it's

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Speaker 4: a part of the body that you are unable to see.

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Speaker 4: So if that shanker develops, for example, within the folds

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Speaker 4: of the vulva or within the rectum if you are

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Speaker 4: having anal sex, then it is difficult for people to

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Speaker 4: see the shanker and most people won't notice it. The

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Speaker 4: other issue with the shanker is oftentimes it is painless

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Speaker 4: and it goes away on its own, So most people

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Speaker 4: may think that they have some ulceration, they rub their

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Speaker 4: skin the wrong way, or there's maybe an allergic reaction,

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Speaker 4: they self treat, it goes away and they don't think

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Speaker 4: anything of it. That is why most people will present

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Speaker 4: with secondary syphilis that develops at around three months after inoculation.

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Speaker 4: You develop most typically a rash. That rash can appear

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Speaker 4: like any other rash. In the textbooks, they describe it

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Speaker 4: as being on the palms and soles of the feet,

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Speaker 4: But I have seen people who look like they're having

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Speaker 4: a massive allergic reaction have a maculum popular eruption on

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Speaker 4: their chest, on their face. Some people get alopecia's well

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Speaker 4: where they could get hair loss. This is where most

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Speaker 4: people will present because they feel swollen lymph nodes they

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Speaker 4: feel a key, they have a rash.

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Speaker 1: So they seek medical treatment. Thankfully, if caught early, syphilis

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Speaker 1: is highly treatable with penicillin, but many people don't catch

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Speaker 1: it in the primary stage, when they have a shanker

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Speaker 1: a painless lesion, they may not even be able to see.

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Speaker 1: This is often when they transmit it to sex partners.

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Speaker 1: Robert apparently passes it to Mary sometime in the six

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Speaker 1: months before the murders, dating back again to October two thousand.

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Speaker 1: Mary apparently finds out in April two thousand and one.

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Speaker 1: By this point she likely has secondary syphilis, which if untreated,

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Speaker 1: can progress to stage three latent syphilis and later stage

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Speaker 1: four tertiary syphilis, which can be much more severe, causing aneurysms, meningitis,

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Speaker 1: and other formidable symptoms neurological symptoms. I knew this, but

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Speaker 1: what I didn't know is that.

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Speaker 4: Neurologic manifestations of syphilis can occur at any stage of syphilis,

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Speaker 4: whether it's primary, secondary, tertiary. You can get involvement of

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Speaker 4: the guys in which you can have vision changes. You

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Speaker 4: can get hearing loss. Most commonly, people report ringing in

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Speaker 4: their ears or muffled hearing, and you can get meninjo,

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Speaker 4: vascular disease or meningitis, unrelenting headaches, next stiffness, altered mental status.

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Speaker 1: Altered mental status which can present.

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Speaker 4: As irritability, memory, loss of personality changes, insomnia, and later

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Speaker 4: compaired judgment and emotional liability.

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Speaker 1: Severe mood swings.

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Speaker 2: Given the nature of the story, I have to ask you,

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Speaker 2: is psychosis a possibility, propensity for violence, any other serious

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Speaker 2: mental health concerns.

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Speaker 4: With respect to neurosyphilis, we have had some individuals who

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Speaker 4: have developed altered mental status, including hallucinations, auditory hallucinations, visual hallucinations.

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Speaker 4: There have been individuals who have developed illusions and psychiatric manifestations.

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Speaker 1: It's tough to measure the frequency of neurological symptoms in

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Speaker 1: patients with primary or secondary syphilis, in part because they

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Speaker 1: can be tough to diagnose. Syphilis is known as the

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Speaker 1: great imitator. It mimics other conditions, and that's.

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Speaker 4: Why syphilis is such a humbling disease. It does present

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Speaker 4: in fifty million different ways. It's one of the oldest

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Speaker 4: and most historic diseases, and it's why it's my favorite

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Speaker 4: bacteria by far, by far, the best bacteria you could

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Speaker 4: fight me. It is the best bacteria because it alludes

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Speaker 4: us to this day.

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Speaker 1: In summary, Robert likely cheats on Mary again. In late

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Speaker 1: two thousand. He apparently catches gonorrhea or chlamydia and syphilis,

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Speaker 1: which he transmits to Mary, who learns about it right

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Speaker 1: before the murders, likely triggering them. Also, neurological symptoms can

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Speaker 1: manifest during any stage of syphilis, meaning they could have

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Speaker 1: affected Robert in the lead up to, even during the murders.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is my theory, but it.

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Speaker 4: Is possible, especially if left untreated, that this progress over

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Speaker 4: time to a state in which there was altered mental status.

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Speaker 4: There is a irritability, and that could possibly be a

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Speaker 4: manifestation of neurosophas.

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Speaker 1: I'm now going to lay out five scenarios of what

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Speaker 1: could have happened to Robert Fisher his fate in order

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Speaker 1: of least to most likely in my opinion, which is

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Speaker 1: the key phrase, my opinion. I don't expect you to

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Speaker 1: necessarily agree. In fact, I encourage dissent. Battle it out

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Speaker 1: on Reddit number five Grizzly Adams theory. Robert Fisher is

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Speaker 1: living off the land twenty three years later, surviving in

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Speaker 1: the wild. Verdict no way. This is so ridiculous. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to spend too much time on it. What

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Speaker 1: about Eric Rudolph, you say the Olympic Park bomber Well.

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Speaker 1: Rudolph survived for five years, not twenty three, in a

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Speaker 1: more hospitable environment, the mountains of western North Carolina. He

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Speaker 1: didn't have a bad back, and as Detective TJ. Juran

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Speaker 1: wisely notes, he had help. He was a right wing ideologue,

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Speaker 1: a folk.

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Speaker 3: Hero, extremeist living in the area helped him, so that

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Speaker 3: was to his benefit.

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Speaker 5: Nobody here is.

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Speaker 6: Going to help Robert Fisher after a man just annihilate

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Speaker 6: his family.

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Speaker 1: Number four died in the wild not by suicide, theory,

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Speaker 1: Robert Fisher fled into the wilderness and died from something

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Speaker 1: other than suicide, a snake bite, drowning, tumbling down a ravine,

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Speaker 1: a rock hitting his head, starvation, a heart attack, water

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Speaker 1: borne disease, anything but suicide. Verdict possible but unlikely. None

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Speaker 1: of Fisher's remains or belongings were ever located. Maybe that

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Speaker 1: seems unsurprising. It is, after all, a huge expanse of land.

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Speaker 1: Fair but not locating something is abnormal, not impossible, just

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Speaker 1: not as rare as you might think. People die and

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Speaker 1: disappear in the wilderness all the time, including in places

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Speaker 1: much more remote than Arizona. They are usually found at

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Speaker 1: some point. For example, in nineteen seventy six, a man

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Speaker 1: named Gary Sutherden vanished in an isolated part of Alaska

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Speaker 1: above the Arctic Circle. In nineteen ninety seven, a hunter

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Speaker 1: found his skull, though it wasn't matched to him until

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. Also in ninety seven, rock climbers in

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Speaker 1: rural Nevada found a body buried beneath rocks. In twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three, it was matched to a missing woman named

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Speaker 1: Lorena Moseley. In nineteen seventy seven, a nineteen year old

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Speaker 1: named Douglas Muller was abducted in Scottsdale. There were multiple

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Speaker 1: ransom demands which his parents tried to pay, but no

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Speaker 1: one picked up the money. Muller was never heard from again.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, a hiker found of femur

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Speaker 1: at twenty three nine ninety three North seventy fourth Place

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Speaker 1: in Scottsdale. If that sounds familiar, it's because the Fishers

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Speaker 1: lived on the same road North seventy fourth Place. The

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Speaker 1: Femur case fell to a detective named Hugh Lockerbee. Lockerbye

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Speaker 1: was proactive. With the help of Arizona's crime lab, he

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Speaker 1: matched the femur to Muller. It seems to have been

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Speaker 1: dug up in the early two thousands, likely by animals

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Speaker 1: rummaging through a clandestin burial spot in a rugged part

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Speaker 1: of North Scottsdale. The homicide remains unsolved now. Of course,

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Speaker 1: thousands of people disappear in the wilderness and are never found,

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Speaker 1: but this seems not to be a major issue. In

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Speaker 1: the area around which Robert abandoned Mary's Forerunner, many people

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Speaker 1: have died there, but few remain missing.

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Speaker 7: We've seen hundreds of people come to the Rim country

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Speaker 7: just to be and God's country when they met their demise.

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Speaker 1: Former Helix County detective Brian Havy.

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Speaker 7: We found people hanging out in the woods that were

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Speaker 7: from the valley, all over the place up here. And

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Speaker 7: why they come up here to kill themselves, I don't know.

306
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Speaker 7: Being God's country, I guess really hundreds of people, yes, literally,

307
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Speaker 7: we found him on top of four peaks. We found

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Speaker 7: him up here in the woods around Payson. We had

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Speaker 7: one guy that dropped his van off at top of

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Speaker 7: the rim on two sixty and hiked five miles down

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Speaker 7: in towards Cold Courts, sat down with a case of

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Speaker 7: beer and started drinking, and hung himself from a low

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Speaker 7: hanging juniper bush. And we didn't find him till two

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Speaker 7: years later when a couple of nurses were hiking in

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Speaker 7: the woods and found some bones that they could positively

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Speaker 7: identify as human bones, and we went out and I

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Speaker 7: found the skull on that probably two one hundred and

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Speaker 7: fifty yards from the tree that he hung himself on.

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Speaker 8: So what you most commonly see in terms of suicides

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Speaker 8: in that area death bite, guns, hanging.

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Speaker 7: I've seen it all different mannerisms. Hanging seems to be

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Speaker 7: a popular one. I've seen guys hang themselves with the

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Speaker 7: cable that they'd used to hold their dog. I've seen

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Speaker 7: people hang themselves with shoer bootlaces. Really doesn't take that much.

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Speaker 8: And these are people that are just hanging in the

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Speaker 8: woods on trees.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I've seen one. Lady wanted to be found,

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Speaker 7: so she dropped her daughter off at Payton Police Department

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Speaker 7: with a note pinned to her chest and said go

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Speaker 7: in there. And she had written across the note a

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Speaker 7: little pad about six by six about ten different ways

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Speaker 7: where she would be, and we had to really work

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Speaker 7: our way through that little piece of paper and figure

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Speaker 7: out directions. As we pulled into her campsite, she looked

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Speaker 7: right at us and put a nine milimeter to her

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Speaker 7: head and shot herself. She didn't want the animals to eat,

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Speaker 7: or she wanted to be found.

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Speaker 8: In terms of missing people, if you got to report

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Speaker 8: that somebody was up in that area and was suicidal,

340
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Speaker 8: can you remember cases where you were not to locate

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Speaker 8: their remains? Sometimes it would take a year or two.

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Speaker 8: Do any cases come to mind that you weren't able

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Speaker 8: to find a body.

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Speaker 7: Not that I recall. Eventually, just like the guy that

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00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 7: parked on top of the rim, we had no direction

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00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,840
Speaker 7: to travel or anything like that until those nurses stumbled

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Speaker 7: upon human bones, and fortunately if all of my instincts

348
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Speaker 7: and walked right to the skull some two hundred and

349
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Speaker 7: fifty yards away up a little canyon where the coyotes

350
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Speaker 7: had drug it. When they hang themselves, that's the first

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Speaker 7: thing that rots un falls off, and if you're on

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Speaker 7: a slope, it's going to roll downhill, So it makes sense.

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Speaker 7: It's like a bowling ball. It's going to roll and

354
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Speaker 7: then the wildlife will take it someplace where they're not

355
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Speaker 7: going to be seen, and that's exactly what they did.

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Speaker 8: How often have unidentified remains been located that you guys

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Speaker 8: thought this might be Robert Fisher?

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Speaker 7: None that I know of that we thought was absolutely

359
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 7: Robert Fasher. And the remains that we have found, I

360
00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 7: don't think we have any unsolved currently. We've been aeople

361
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Speaker 7: to identify most all of the remains that we found

362
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Speaker 7: in Heila County to recap.

363
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Speaker 1: In his twenty seven year career, Haviy and his colleagues

364
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Speaker 1: found hundreds of bodies in remote parts of HeLa County.

365
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Speaker 1: He can't recall any case in which someone was missing

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Speaker 1: and or suicidal and wasn't found at some point. He's

367
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Speaker 1: unaware of any still unidentified remains that could match Robert Fisher. However,

368
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Speaker 1: if Fisher died, his remains were likely scattered by wild

369
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Speaker 1: animals or not. HeLa County supervisor would he Klein tells

370
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Speaker 1: me an interesting story.

371
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Speaker 9: One time we had a couple that was south a

372
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Speaker 9: young and they were down on one of those little roads.

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Speaker 9: It was a man and a woman. They had a

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Speaker 9: camp sitting there. They had a dog too. She shot

375
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Speaker 9: him and then shot herself. It was late in the

376
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Speaker 9: fall when they figured when she killed him. We didn't

377
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Speaker 9: find him until the late in the spring. The bears

378
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Speaker 9: that actually came out and they ate her and he

379
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Speaker 9: was still intact.

380
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Speaker 2: I'm assuming you don't know the answer to this, but

381
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Speaker 2: do you have any idea why the bear did not

382
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Speaker 2: eat one of them?

383
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Speaker 9: No, there's nothing but bones scattered around there, and obviously

384
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Speaker 9: the dog had been eaten on it too, because the

385
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Speaker 9: dog was there still alive.

386
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Speaker 1: A bear eats one body, not the other. One body

387
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Speaker 1: reduced to bones, scattered, the other intact. Chaos. I decide

388
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Speaker 1: to drive to Tucson to meet up with Bruce Anderson,

389
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Speaker 1: a forensic anthropologist with the Pima County Medical Examiner's Office,

390
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Speaker 1: which for many years handled cases out of nearby HeLa

391
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Speaker 1: County in that.

392
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Speaker 2: Area around young If Robert Fischer died in the woods,

393
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Speaker 2: if he died in a cave, can you walk me through.

394
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Speaker 5: I want to say, the decomposition and.

395
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Speaker 8: Calendar, but can you give me an idea within twelve hour,

396
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Speaker 8: twenty four hours a week, a month, a year, twenty years?

397
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Speaker 6: So he disappeared in April. So it'll be no snow.

398
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 6: There might be some residual snow, but it's not going

399
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 6: to have snow, so the temperatures might even in April

400
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 6: up there, they might be close to freezing. So if

401
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 6: he did die, the night to be cold, but today

402
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 6: is would warm up and by the middle of the summer.

403
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,159
Speaker 6: Looking at closer triple digit. It's if he died on

404
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 6: the surface, I believe animals would have found him, and

405
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 6: they would have started with the easy parts, the fingers

406
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 6: and toes, in the face, and even if you're wearing

407
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 6: leather boots, they'll eventually chew through the leather and get

408
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 6: to your feet. Denim is not an issue for coyotes.

409
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 6: They'll rip right through it. Any kind of leather jacket,

410
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 6: they'll rip through it, eat all the soft tissue, and

411
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 6: then while they're doing that, probably eat a little bit

412
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Speaker 6: of bone. And then if they revisit the site, if

413
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Speaker 6: the body goes undetected for weeks or months, they'll.

414
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 5: Revisit and they'll keep doing that.

415
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,360
Speaker 6: There's wolves or bears, it's possible a body could be consumed. Now,

416
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 6: if he was in a cave, it's going to be cooler.

417
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 6: I've been in caves in their flagstaff. For the temperature

418
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 6: is the same all year round, and it's dark except

419
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Speaker 6: for bats.

420
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Speaker 5: I don't know who lives down there.

421
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 6: So in a cave situation, if there's no large carnivores

422
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Speaker 6: and I don't know fruit bats or insect bats would

423
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Speaker 6: bother their body. I've never heard anything along those lines.

424
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Speaker 6: But lacking any large animals, then I'd expect there's going

425
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Speaker 6: to be decomposition.

426
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Speaker 5: The body's going to bloat because of the autolysis.

427
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 6: The cells are going to start secreting chemicals, and you

428
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 6: get gas built up. But eventually that gas is going

429
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 6: to cause either bursting of the skin or some kind

430
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 6: of a GI track expulsion, and then the body's going

431
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 6: to collapse a little bit. And if there's no critters

432
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 6: to smell that income eat, there still might be flies

433
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 6: and other insects that smell it, and then it could

434
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 6: be kind of akin to somebody who dies indoors. The

435
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 6: doors are locked and the windows are locked, but somehow

436
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,640
Speaker 6: flies and mosquitoes get in and beetles, and then over

437
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 6: weeks or months, in that scenario, the flies and the

438
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 6: beetles would eat everything butt bone, So you could conceivably

439
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 6: have a complete skeleton devoid of any or most soft

440
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 6: tissue after several years.

441
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: The idea that Robert Fisher's skeleton could be sitting in

442
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: a cave untouched is cinematic in a macabre way, But

443
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: in the past twenty three years, all the caves in

444
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 1: which he could have died have been searched repeatedly by

445
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: recreational cavers and occasionally law enforcement. No one ever found

446
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: his remains or belongings in a cave. It's possible he's

447
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: in one, ossified in a cravas or something, but unlikely.

448
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: What about outside in a forest or canyon.

449
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 6: In that case, you're not going to find a skeleton

450
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 6: that's complete.

451
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 5: It's not going to happen. Right.

452
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 6: Even if for some reason the animals, the carnivores or

453
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 6: birds didn't.

454
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 5: Find him, the bugs would skeletonize them.

455
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 6: That domestic beetles would finish cleaning the bones off, but

456
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 6: raccoon or something would come and disturb the skeleton.

457
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 5: Plus the whole skeleton laying out in the desert.

458
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 6: Not twenty years later, there's hunters, there's people on ATVs.

459
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 6: So if he did die up here, it's almost if

460
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 6: his body had to be hidden.

461
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: It's strange nothing was ever found. That's in stark contrast

462
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: with the majority of people who vanished in Kila County,

463
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: nearly all of whom are located in whole or part

464
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: I asked Bruce to check NamUs, the National Database of

465
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: Missing People and Unidentified Remains. Are there any remains that

466
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: could belong to Fisher?

467
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 6: As of today, there's thirty possible matches to him within

468
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 6: one hundred miles of where he disappeared.

469
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: Which sounds intriguing, but you can immediately rule out the

470
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,959
Speaker 1: majority of them. Only eleven have ever warranted further examination.

471
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,360
Speaker 1: For eleven different ups unidentified persons.

472
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 5: Somebody thought we got to make sure this isn't Fisher.

473
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 5: Apparently it's not.

474
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: If you like this show, please download our first two seasons,

475
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates,

476
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: visit meon thirty three dot com or follow me on

477
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: Twitter at John waalzac j O n Wa l Czak.

478
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Scottsdale Police and the FBI keep a

479
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: close eye on any remains found in or near Heila County.

480
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: When remains are located, it's possible to determine quickly whether

481
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: or not they could belong to Fisher. Experts can tell

482
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: whether the person is male or female, estimate the person's height,

483
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: look for dental fillings like the infamous gold tooth, and

484
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 1: look for signs that the person had back surgery. All

485
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: that before lab testing as far as DNA, even twenty

486
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: three years later, Even in Arizona, even without a skull

487
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: or teeth, most skeletal remains will still yield DNA. Meaning

488
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: if you find any human bone in HeLa County, turn

489
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: it in, it could be Fisher.

490
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 5: The larger, thicker bones are better. But even a rib,

491
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 5: let's say he was.

492
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 6: Devoured by animals and there's just scraps left, a few ribs,

493
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 6: maybe a piece of clavicle or something, maybe a piece

494
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 6: of mandible.

495
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 5: That could yield.

496
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 6: Even after two decades, it could yield because sunlight is

497
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 6: a very strong inhibitor for DNA preservation, and we have

498
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 6: a lot more of it down here in the Sonoran Desert,

499
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 6: and they do up on the rim or near the rim.

500
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 6: And still given that we have submitted samples from bleached

501
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 6: white bone, bone has been laying after a decade or more, Yeah,

502
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 6: when we cut into it, it's still yallow. In the middle,

503
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 6: that yellow part of the bone may still have some

504
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 6: viable DNA in it.

505
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 1: Any DNA can be run through COTIS, the national DNA database,

506
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: to see if it matches Robert. His parents submitted samples

507
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: of their DNA to police, who uploaded them to COTIS.

508
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: If investigators run DNA through COTIS and it's Robert, it'll

509
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: ping bam we found him. Sadly that hasn't happened. What

510
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: about his belongings, his pistol, camping gear, driver's license, credit cards,

511
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: car keys, tobacco tens. They could still be out there.

512
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen, an archaeologist in Nevada found a one

513
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty two year old rifle propped up against

514
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: a juniper tree. It's now known as the Forgotten Winchester.

515
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: It apparently lay there untouched for at least a century.

516
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: Two years later, a wildfire burned through the area. This

517
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: teaches us two important lessons. One yes, stop can survive

518
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: outside in the arid Southwest for a long time, and two,

519
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: wildfires can easily destroy it, which is pertinent to the

520
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: fissure case. Since two thousand and one, two fires have

521
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: ravaged the area around the fore runner spot. The Rodeo

522
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: Chetta Sky fire in two thousand and two and the

523
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: Poco Fire in twenty twelve. The Rodeo Chetta sky fire

524
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: burned from the east, the Poco fire from the west.

525
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: What's incredible is that while both came extremely close to

526
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: the fore Runners spot, neither reached it. By examining maps,

527
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: our researcher, Paul Gemberline, determine there's a tiny strip of

528
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: land between the fires, three quarters of a mile wide

529
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: that didn't burn. Amazingly, it includes the four Runners spot. Furthermore,

530
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,959
Speaker 1: while maps show us fire perimeters, they can't tell us

531
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: how intensely the fires burned. Paul said, quote. There can

532
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,719
Speaker 1: be patches within a perimeter that are less burned, not

533
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: burned at all, or burned to a crisp meaning there

534
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: might still be evidence in places marked as burned that

535
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: didn't burn, separate from physical evidence bones, guns, keys. Let's

536
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: dial back to common sense. How likely is it that

537
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: a man who spent his entire life outside died at

538
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: a critical moment from something other than suicide, a snake bite,

539
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: a falling rock disease, something random. Sure, anything is possible

540
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: in a violent nature, and Fisher would have been in

541
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: a rush, making him more prone to fatal error, But

542
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: is it likely that he died of natural causes or

543
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: a random act of God and none of his remains

544
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: or belongings were ever located. Moving on number three, escaped

545
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: then died theory Robert Fisher escaped and lived as a fugitive,

546
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: but sometime in the past twenty three years he died.

547
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: No one ever connected his body to him, either because

548
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: he lived under a false identity or because his remains

549
00:30:54,600 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: are sitting somewhere unidentified. Verdict possible, but unlikely. According to

550
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: the Social Security Administration, Fisher had a life expectancy at

551
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: birth of seventy five years, meaning if he didn't die

552
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: by suicide, he's probably alive. If alive age sixty three,

553
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 1: If he made it this far, he'd still have about

554
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: twenty years left to live. That's because as you get older,

555
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: as you survive the perils of youth and middle age,

556
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: your life expectancy increases. The government would now expect him

557
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: to die around January twenty forty five. For argument's sake, though,

558
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: let's say he did escape and die. He could have

559
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: been buried or cremated under a false name. But if

560
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: his remains were unidentified, a mysterious John Doe. They likely

561
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: would have been fingerprinted and maybe even tested for DNA.

562
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: His fingerprints are on file in a national database, so

563
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: too are DNA samples from his parents. So there's next

564
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: to zero chance his remains have been located and checked

565
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: against databases without being connected to him. Now, maybe he

566
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: died somewhere with a lazy corner. Anything's possible, I guess.

567
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: But again, is it likely number two died in the

568
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: wild by suicide? There are only two theories that make

569
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: sense to me, and this is one of them. Everything

570
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: I said though about option number four, that Robert died

571
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: in the wild not by suicide, still applies here. It's

572
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: strange that none of his remains or belongings have ever

573
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: been found. The Forerunner spot is rugged and remote, but

574
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: not that remote. It's only two hours and twenty minutes

575
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: from the fifth largest city in America. People head up

576
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: there all the time to hike, hunt camp cave. It's

577
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: been twenty three years. Still nothing. However, there's a possible

578
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: explanation for this. If he died, I think he died

579
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: on tribal land.

580
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 8: Is that a fence that is offense?

581
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: Police find Mary's suv near the Fort Apache Indian Reservation.

582
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 8: This is the boundary.

583
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: Tribal land is sovereign territory over which state and local

584
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: law enforcement have limited influence. Tribal police assist in the

585
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 1: initial hunt for Fisher, but in the years that follow,

586
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: the one point seven million acre reservation population fifteen thousand

587
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: is never searched as thoroughly as the federal land next

588
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: to it, the Tonto National Forest. The tribal border is

589
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: marked by a barbed wire fence and no trespassing signs. Yes,

590
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: people violate them, but still the national forest is much

591
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: easier to visit and access. Therefore, it's likelier that any

592
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: undiscovered remains are on tribal land. Now moving on, eighty

593
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: to eighty five percent of family annihilators die by suicide,

594
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: but fifteen to twenty percent don't. A minority, sure, but

595
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: a sizeable one. How can someone live with themselves after

596
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: killing their family? I don't know, but fifteen to twenty

597
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: percent of annihilators do, including some prominent ones like John List. Furthermore,

598
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: Robert had strong religious beliefs against suicide. Obviously they also

599
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: prohibit murder, but to many Christians, suicide is the cardinal sin,

600
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: the one you can't come back from the one, in

601
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: their view for which there's no redemption, the one that

602
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: sent you to hell. Now, many people who knew Robert

603
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: believe he died by suicide, in part because he threatened

604
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: it previously in nineteen ninety nine, when he confessed to

605
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: cheating on Mary. I discussed this with Fisher family friends,

606
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 1: including John Rodin and his wife Mary Beth.

607
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 6: He had said in that letter that if she wasn't

608
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 6: going to take him back, he was going to kill himself.

609
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 5: So that's why at first we figured, yeah, he's dead.

610
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 5: I know this is a tough question.

611
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: But what would indicate that he was serious about killing

612
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: himself versus it being a ploy for attention to Mary.

613
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's true. That's a good point.

614
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 5: I didn't thought about that.

615
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: Robert told Mary he was going to a cabin in

616
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: the wild for thirty days. He conveyed that she could

617
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 1: leave him, but if she did, he'd kill himself. He

618
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: told her how to reach him. Mary ignored him. Only

619
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: three to four days later he came home. In this context,

620
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: it seems like Robert's threat was insincere, just one more

621
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,720
Speaker 1: blunt instrument to manipulate and control Mary.

622
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 3: End of Part one, Please continue to Part two.

623
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: You can reach us by phone at one eight three

624
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 1: three new Tips That's one, eight three, three, six three, nine,

625
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: eight four seven seven, by email at tips at iHeartMedia

626
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: dot com, tip s at iHeartMedia dot com, online at

627
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: meon thirty three dot com, or on Twitter at John Wallzac,

628
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: j O, n w A. L. Czak. Paul Decan is

629
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: our executive producer, Chris Brown is our supervising producer. Hannah

630
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: Rose Snyder is our producer. Paul Gemperlin is our researcher,

631
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: Ben Bolan is a consulting producer, and I'm your host

632
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,400
Speaker 1: and executive producer John Wallzac recreation voiced by Rob Lamb.

633
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: Additional production support provided by Ben Haas. Cover art by

634
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 1: Pam Peacock. Neon thirty three, logo designed by Derek Rudy.

635
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: Our intro song is Utopia by Ruby Cube. Please download

636
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: the first two seasons of our show, Missing in Alaska

637
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: and Missing on nine to eleven, and if you're so inclined,

638
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,160
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639
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