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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello listeners, exciting news. Today you can enjoy a

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Speaker 1: double dose of malefactors and meltdowns. In honor of my

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Speaker 1: new mini series on the Art of Fairness, I have

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Speaker 1: not just one, but two cautionary tales for you. Straight

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Speaker 1: after this episode, you'll be able to listen to another

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Speaker 1: story on this feed, all about an astonishing race to

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Speaker 1: build a skyscraper in just thirteen months. And now on

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Speaker 1: with our first episode. Nineteen twenty eight and Leo du

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Speaker 1: Rocha is a new player on the feigned New York

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Speaker 1: Yankees baseball team. He's slight in build and not especially fast,

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Speaker 1: and now rounding first base and heading as quickly as

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Speaker 1: he can to second, he can see his opponent glove

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Speaker 1: ready is about to slam his foot down on the base.

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Speaker 1: If he does that before de Rochia gets there, then

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Speaker 1: de Rochia is out. Darrocha can try diving head first

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Speaker 1: at the base to get there before his opponent, but

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Speaker 1: he knows he's not going to be fast enough, so

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Speaker 1: he takes a different approach. He has sharp spikes on

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Speaker 1: the bottom of his shoes, ostensibly just for grip as

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Speaker 1: he runs, but they can also serve as a powerful weapon.

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Speaker 1: He leaps feet forward towards the base. As he hits

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Speaker 1: the ground and slides, he raises his feet high. When

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Speaker 1: he makes contact, the spikes gouge hard into his opponent's leg,

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Speaker 1: tearing open the skin, hitting the bone. Darochia stands up,

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Speaker 1: brushes himself off. He's made it, but he's gained something

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Speaker 1: more important than second base. He's gained a reputation. Next time,

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Speaker 1: his opponents are going to think twice about even trying

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Speaker 1: to get in his way. Leo de Rocha became one

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Speaker 1: of the best known baseball managers of the twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: famous for saying that nice guys finish last. But is

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Speaker 1: that true? That's what I'll explore today with help from

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Speaker 1: my friend David Bandanas. He's written about this idea in

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Speaker 1: his book The Art of Fairness, The Power of Decency

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Speaker 1: in a World Turned Mean. David also has some first

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Speaker 1: hand experience with Derochia. For everything came to a test

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine when Derochia was managing in Chicago

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Speaker 1: and David Bandanas was there. I'm Tim Harford, and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to cautionary tales. This is cautionary tales, and I'm

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Speaker 1: joined in the studio by David Bandanas himself. Welcome David, Hello, sir.

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Speaker 1: Now you were never formally introduced to Derosha, but I

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Speaker 1: understand you spent lots of time at games that he managed. Right.

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Speaker 2: Oh, nineteen sixty nine was a beautiful year. I was

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Speaker 2: in my last year of elementary school and school was

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Speaker 2: a bit boring, so I spent a lot of time

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Speaker 2: with my friends going down to watch the Cubs games.

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Speaker 2: It was a rougher area where the stadium was. It's

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Speaker 2: a little bit scary, but we got used to it,

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Speaker 2: and before long we weren't scared. We were accepted. And

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Speaker 2: we'd stay laid after the games to help clean the stands.

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Speaker 2: That got us free tickets for the next day.

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Speaker 1: That's not a bad gig. So what was it like

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Speaker 1: seeing Derosia in action?

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Speaker 2: It was exciting. It was the peak of our life

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Speaker 2: to that time. Often and we'd stop what we were

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Speaker 2: doing cleaning up in the stands, and we'd look down

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Speaker 2: and we'd watch him do interviews after the game. It

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Speaker 2: was a beautiful, beautiful setting. The field was empty below us.

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Speaker 2: There was just open green space right in the middle

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Speaker 2: of Chicago. He'd be alone with the journalists or sometimes

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Speaker 2: a single camera crew. At other times, when we got

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Speaker 2: there early, we'd come right to the edge of the

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Speaker 2: field and we'd watch him organizing the players. He'd comment

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Speaker 2: on batting practice, stuff like that, one of the star

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Speaker 2: pitchers was from Canada. Well, my dad had grown up

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Speaker 2: in Canada. And a couple of times I got his

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Speaker 2: attention and the picture would smile at me. I kind

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Speaker 2: of like to imagine that Derocher saw that and frowned.

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Speaker 2: He always looked ticked off if anyone interrupted what he

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Speaker 2: was doing. But honestly, that could just be a later memory.

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Speaker 1: But Deroch hadn't begun in Chicago, had he.

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Speaker 2: No, We always thought of him as a New Yorker.

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Speaker 2: That's where he had played, That's where he'd coached when

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Speaker 2: he was younger. Chicago had strong players, but we hadn't

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Speaker 2: made it to the World Series. In ages, there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of pain being a Cubs fan. We had

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Speaker 2: a beautiful field. It was the oldest and the National League.

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Speaker 2: It dated from before World War One. There were old

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Speaker 2: red bricks, there was ivy on the outfield wall. The

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Speaker 2: scoreboard was actually turned by hand, and there were no

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Speaker 2: big parking lots outside. You were right next to city apartments,

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Speaker 2: and they crowded in right to the edge of the stadium.

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Speaker 2: People who lived in those buildings were really lucky. They

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Speaker 2: would sometimes rent out their windows or rent out their

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Speaker 2: roof space so cheapskates could get a view. So we

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Speaker 2: had all this beautiful stadium, good players, but we never

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Speaker 2: ever won. Leo du Rocher was brought in to fix that.

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Speaker 1: So as it had to say that he was your hero.

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Speaker 2: He really really was. I was twelve and Chicago was

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Speaker 2: proud of being a solid blue collar city, and so

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Speaker 2: here was this guy. He was tough, he was matter

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Speaker 2: of fact. He looked exasperate almost all the time, but

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Speaker 2: then he'd sort of ease up. He'd almost be smiling

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Speaker 2: at his own exasperation. We thought that was kind of cool.

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Speaker 2: Sportswriters really liked him, at least most of the time.

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Speaker 2: There's a feeling he might be a son of a bitch,

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Speaker 2: a curmudgeon, but he was a lovable one, and everyone

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Speaker 2: knew his quote that nice guys finish last. It seemed

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Speaker 2: pretty likely his approach would work. In Midsummer, our cubs

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Speaker 2: were way in front.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and forgive me that I'm not a baseball expert.

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Speaker 1: So for people like me who might not know, just

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Speaker 1: remind me how the baseball season works.

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Speaker 2: That is a totally fair question. If you asked me

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Speaker 2: about rugby or soccer, I would not know. I would

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Speaker 2: even use the wrong word for soccer. Baseball starts in

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Speaker 2: the spring, it goes through an incredibly hot summer, especially

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Speaker 2: if you live in Chicago, and it finishes usually in September,

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Speaker 2: and then there's playoffs in October. Well, to get ahead,

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Speaker 2: Chicago needed to be first in their division. That would

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Speaker 2: get us to the playoffs, and if we won those,

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Speaker 2: then we could make be getting to the World Series. Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: it was a good time. We were in front and

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Speaker 2: there wasn't much competition. The second place team was the

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Speaker 2: New York Mets. They were really, really far behind. Also,

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Speaker 2: the manager of the Mets was the opposite of DeRosier.

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Speaker 2: His name was Gil Hodges, and he was known as

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Speaker 2: the nicest man in baseball. We weren't worried, but there

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Speaker 2: was something else for me on the line too. I

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Speaker 2: had a girlfriend at the time, or a young lady

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Speaker 2: who went with our group to the Cubs games, and

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Speaker 2: I hoped she'd be a girlfriend and I was confident

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Speaker 2: she would because she whispered to me that I was

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Speaker 2: going to get a kiss, my very first kiss if

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Speaker 2: the Cubs won.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, so this is the crucial summer. It's the

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Speaker 1: test of Derosha's maxim that nice guys finished last. Hodges

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Speaker 1: is a nice guy, Derosha isn't. And it looked like

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Speaker 1: Hodges would lose and Derosha would be proven right about

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Speaker 1: nice guys. But with that kiss on the line, that

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Speaker 1: was still time for everything to change. David, you got

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Speaker 1: me curious about Derotion Now. What was he like when

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Speaker 1: he started out.

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Speaker 2: As a kid. I had no idea. Later, as adults,

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Speaker 2: I looked back, I researched. It turned out he grew

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Speaker 2: up on the East Coast in the nineteen tens. His

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Speaker 2: parents were from Quebec, so as a kid he only

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Speaker 2: spoke French when he went to school. He couldn't speak

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Speaker 2: a word of English.

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Speaker 1: But he was good at sports.

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Speaker 2: Boy was he good. He was good in a particular way.

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Speaker 2: He was a small guy, but he had good reflexes

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Speaker 2: and he could hustle. He was really fast. And the

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Speaker 2: thing is the big thing, he never gave up anything

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Speaker 2: that would help him when he would do. He cheated,

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Speaker 2: he tried to intimidate umpires as we saw. He was

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Speaker 2: famous for using his spikes to gouge opponents when he

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Speaker 2: slid into.

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Speaker 1: Base and did that kind of thing work.

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Speaker 2: Boy, did it work. Even with his limited talent, he

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Speaker 2: managed to get on one of the most famous teams

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Speaker 2: of all time, the nineteen twenties New York Yankees. Babe

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Speaker 2: Bruce was the star of the team, and he used

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Speaker 2: to say that Durocher couldn't hit the floor if he

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Speaker 2: dropped a cigarette. It's harsh, but accurate. He was a

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Speaker 2: terrible hitter, but he kept hustling and threatening and taking shortcuts.

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Speaker 2: He used to say, I'd knock over my mother if

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Speaker 2: she was rounding a base and I needed the winning run. Later,

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Speaker 2: he became manager with other teams in New York, and

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Speaker 2: he led the New York Giants to two championships and

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Speaker 2: mellowed in your dreams. He got his players to act

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Speaker 2: just like him. It's kind of attractive when somebody's a

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Speaker 2: bit of a jerk and leading your way and being

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Speaker 2: a jerk wins. You're allowed to be who you've always

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Speaker 2: wanted to be. He had his pitchers throw fastballs. They

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Speaker 2: would go right at the other team's heads. At one

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Speaker 2: point this was brilliant. He set up a hidden telescope

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Speaker 2: to steal the signals of his opponents right in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the game, and all the time he kept

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Speaker 2: on trying to intimidate umpires. He'd also always have his

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Speaker 2: players gouge opponents when they could. All that was always

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Speaker 2: going on. He even liked saying that he meant it

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Speaker 2: about his mother. He would describe how when he went home,

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Speaker 2: she was terribly hurt what he said, and as he

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Speaker 2: put it, for the rest of my life, as long

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Speaker 2: as I visited, she'd walk around with an injured air.

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Speaker 2: And I guess she had a right to God rest

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Speaker 2: your soul. Mom, I'm afraid I would have knocked you over.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like a very attractive man. So where

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Speaker 1: does that lovable curmudgeon reputation come from.

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Speaker 2: Well, you have to think of it from the outside.

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Speaker 2: None of us really knew all the horrible details, certainly

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Speaker 2: not in Chicago. And to be honest, most baseball fans

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Speaker 2: across America, and someone who seems tough, it's pretty appealing

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Speaker 2: if they're on your side. When he managed the Brooklyn Dodgers,

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen forties. The fans loved him. He was

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Speaker 2: salt of the earth, working hard. They like to think

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Speaker 2: they were salt of the earth, and boy, blue collar

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Speaker 2: jobs in America at the time were really hard work. Well,

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Speaker 2: it was the same thing in my Chicago in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen sixties. They used to say that when in America

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Speaker 2: made half the steel in the world, Chicago made half

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Speaker 2: the steal in America. We were so proud of that.

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Speaker 2: People would go to the game's earthy fingers, sweaty literally

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Speaker 2: blue shirts. Du Rocher was one of us.

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Speaker 1: And de Rocher brought the first black player into the league, didn't.

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Speaker 2: He That's the other thing. If your strong willed in

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Speaker 2: one direction, you can be strong willed in another. In

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty seven he was with Brooklyn and he brought

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Speaker 2: Jackie Robinson into the league, the very first black player

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Speaker 2: in professional baseball. There was really nasty segregation going on

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Speaker 2: till then. Black players just weren't allowed in the main leagues.

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Speaker 2: But now, especially after World War Two, seemed ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: And how did it go over well?

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Speaker 2: Most of de Rocher's players were pretty decent about it,

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Speaker 2: but some were from the South. They did not like

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Speaker 2: having a black man anywhere near them. So they signed

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Speaker 2: a petition, and that petition said get rid of Jackie Robinson.

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Speaker 2: We will not play on a team with him. De

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Speaker 2: Rocher couldn't stand that. He knew what it was like

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Speaker 2: to be picked on. He grabbed the players who signed

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Speaker 2: the petition and he yelled at them, and he screamed

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Speaker 2: at them they could go f themselves as well as

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Speaker 2: at effing petition if they didn't unsign it right now,

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Speaker 2: they were fired. That was going to happen, No apology,

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Speaker 2: no excuse. Robinson stayed and he was a great player.

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Speaker 2: De Rocher wanted to win.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So toughness lets you get things done, and not

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Speaker 1: only winning, but forcing through these big symbolic steps towards

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Speaker 1: racial justice. So Durocher had a point. It doesn't always

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Speaker 1: pay to simply be nice. If you want to get

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Speaker 1: things done, you might need to be a little bit hard,

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Speaker 1: even to be a bit obnoxious.

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Speaker 2: You're right, but it isn't the full story. De Rocher

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Speaker 2: loved it in New York, but something was about to

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Speaker 2: happen there, something that would change everything for him.

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Speaker 1: And we'll hear all about that. When cautionary tales returns

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Speaker 1: in a moment. We're back. I am in the studio

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Speaker 1: with David Badani's author of the Art of Fairness, and

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Speaker 1: we're talking about whether Leo de Rocha was right that

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Speaker 1: nice guys finished last. David, We've known each other a

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Speaker 1: very long time, and you've been interested in these ideas

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Speaker 1: for I think as long as I've known you twenty

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Speaker 1: five years or so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. To really write about something well, or to write deeply,

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Speaker 2: at least for me, I have to really care about it.

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Speaker 2: And I think it comes from way back when I

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Speaker 2: was a kid. I really hated the idea that terrible

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Speaker 2: people could succeed. Bullies succeeding at school, dictators succeeding in politics.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in Chicago. Not

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Speaker 2: long after World War Two. A huge number of people

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Speaker 2: who survived the death camps were all around us. They

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Speaker 2: had tattoos on their forearms, my barber people's, the law store,

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Speaker 2: pretty much everybody, and they weren't old. They were in

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Speaker 2: their thirties. Anyways, history showed that terrible people often win,

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Speaker 2: so I thought maybe I was being naive about wanting

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Speaker 2: the other side to succeed. That's what made me get

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Speaker 2: into this book, The Art of Fairness. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: find out what are the actual limitations of being a jerk,

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Speaker 2: of being horrible? And then the other side, what are

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Speaker 2: the strengths of, if not being merely nice, at least

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Speaker 2: being fair, what are those strengths? And since I knew

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Speaker 2: about d Rocher from first hand experience, that's what brought

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Speaker 2: me to the story.

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Speaker 1: I remember when you first told me this idea for

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Speaker 1: a book, and I just idolized you. Then, David, I mean,

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Speaker 1: of course I still idolized you, but you know, I

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Speaker 1: hadn't written a book, and I just thought to write

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Speaker 1: a book would be the coolest thing ever. One of

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Speaker 1: the early ideas was that you were going to have

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Speaker 1: it reversible, So one side said nice guys finish first,

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Speaker 1: and the other side said nice guys finish last. And

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Speaker 1: you were going to explore these different ideas in the end,

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Speaker 1: of course, it ended up being called The Art of

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Speaker 1: fair It's such a rich topic for a book. There's

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Speaker 1: so much to explore because there's just no one way

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Speaker 1: to answer the question.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's actually true, and if we're honest about ourselves,

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Speaker 2: the kindest people have jerky sides underneath. Unless somebody is

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Speaker 2: a total psychopath, they'll often be kind or reasonable. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the idea of a book that would open from different sides.

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Speaker 2: They used to do that with science fiction books in

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Speaker 2: the fifties and sixties and the cheap magazines. And I

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Speaker 2: got the idea from William Blake Songs of Innocence, Songs

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Speaker 2: of Experience. You take the same project and come in

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Speaker 2: in different directions. I was always fascinated about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But as we discussed it at the time, I

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Speaker 1: was doing into game theory, so there's a mathematical way

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Speaker 1: of thinking about cooperation, and of course there is that

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Speaker 1: side to it, and you can approach it as a

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Speaker 1: mathematician or as a scientist, as an economist, but you

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Speaker 1: can draw in all of these other possible stories as well,

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Speaker 1: and bring the arts, bring history into this topic.

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Speaker 2: That actually threw me at the beginning. In my own

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Speaker 2: background was in math, and I tried to do it

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Speaker 2: very formally this book. I tried to go through the

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Speaker 2: logic behind it, and I found that didn't really hold.

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Speaker 2: There's a subtlety of human interaction, so in a sense,

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Speaker 2: you can only learn from experience. It's really weird. I

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Speaker 2: remember when I was a kid, I was really irritated.

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Speaker 2: I would say to people, well, tell me exactly why

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Speaker 2: and what to do, and it follows. It was like

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Speaker 2: you plug numbers into a math equation and the results

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Speaker 2: are automatic. Why couldn't I plug certain principles into my

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Speaker 2: own life and everything would be good.

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Speaker 1: I have some very friendly people on YouTube who will

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Speaker 1: happily sell you three or five or ten principles that

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Speaker 1: will sort out your life. But it never works like that,

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Speaker 1: does it.

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Speaker 2: It never never works to plug a good advice into

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Speaker 2: what we actually do. That's what's hard. Advice is easy

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Speaker 2: to state, but really hard to carry out. You need

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Speaker 2: practical experience.

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Speaker 1: But at the risk of introducing spoilers, I am guessing,

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Speaker 1: since you've written an entire book about the art of fairness,

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing that Derosia's max him nice guys finish last.

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Speaker 1: That's not always right, even if sometimes it works well.

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Speaker 2: My greatest pleasure was finding the exceptions. When my oldest

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Speaker 2: boy was a teenager, he asked me before going into

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Speaker 2: the world. He said, Dad, all the stuff we've learned,

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Speaker 2: is it true? And I genuinely didn't know. I've done

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Speaker 2: very little in the outside world. So I said, I'll

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Speaker 2: take a look. And he was young, and I even

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Speaker 2: believed that I would find out. Anyways, this book is

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Speaker 2: part of the story, and it turns out when you

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Speaker 2: start acting like a jerk, it can be really hard

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Speaker 2: to stop. You get used to doing whatever you want

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Speaker 2: to getting your way just by pushing, just by pushing

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Speaker 2: hard against other people.

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Speaker 1: So, speaking of other people, Derochia had a rival. He

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Speaker 1: had this rival manager, and this rival had a very

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Speaker 1: very different approach to Deroshia.

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Speaker 2: Ah. That was Gil Hodges. Now in nineteen sixty nine,

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Speaker 2: he was the manager of the New York Mets. That

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Speaker 2: was our arch competitor. Oooh boo hiss. But he actually

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Speaker 2: knew Derocher really well. Hodges was a little bit younger

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Speaker 2: than Durocher, and back in the nineteen fifties he'd been

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Speaker 2: a player on one of de Rocher's teams. But yet

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Speaker 2: he was a totally different character in what way De

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Speaker 2: Rocher I think was born with something wrong with him.

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Speaker 2: Gil Hodges was a coal miner son and he'd served

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Speaker 2: in World War Two. He was a decorated combat marine.

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Speaker 2: Everything he had always done was about solidarity, about cooperation,

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Speaker 2: about working together as a player, he'd take the time

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Speaker 2: to coach others who needed it. He was aggressive enough

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Speaker 2: when he was hitting and running. He was a really

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Speaker 2: good player, but he never mocked teammates who were having

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Speaker 2: a bad stretch. De Rocher always had to cheat to succeed,

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Speaker 2: not Hodges. He could get by on pure talent. He

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Speaker 2: never jabbed his spikes into anyone's legs. And of course

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Speaker 2: he interrupted his playing career and lost several years of

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Speaker 2: salary to serve in World War Two. That was something

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Speaker 2: mister Durocher very carefully avoided. When de Rocher was a manager,

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Speaker 2: hughes Hodges because Hodges was talented, but he never understood

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Speaker 2: why Hodges insisted on those soft attitudes, being helpful to others,

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Speaker 2: playing a game by the rules, even being willing to

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Speaker 2: serve your country.

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Speaker 1: Goodness me And so later on, when Hodges himself was

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Speaker 1: a manager, how did he behave? Then?

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Speaker 2: One of the great things is, as you know, tim,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, power goes to their head. Hodges

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Speaker 2: stayed the same guy. He stayed the opposite to Durocher.

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Speaker 2: Now again, that doesn't mean he was soft. That's what

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Speaker 2: Durocher and people like him kept getting wrong. Coal mining families,

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Speaker 2: combat marines. These are not weak people. The thing is

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Speaker 2: Hodges was fair. It always meant a lot to him.

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Speaker 2: When he was managing the New York Mets in that

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Speaker 2: big year of nineteen sixty nine, one of his star

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Speaker 2: players in the outfield was slacking off. It was near

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Speaker 2: the end of a long night game. Well, that was

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Speaker 2: unfair to the other players. Hodges knew that. So he

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Speaker 2: walked all the way across the field in front of

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Speaker 2: the fans, in front of the TV cameras, and then

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Speaker 2: with that player he walked all the way back. A

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Speaker 2: replacement was going to take his place. Well, it was

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Speaker 2: embarrassing for the player, but Hodges didn't rub it in.

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Speaker 2: That was the fair thing. He said that from the

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Speaker 2: next day on, the incident would be entirely forgotten. That

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Speaker 2: he had treat the player with as much respect as ever,

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Speaker 2: And he did. That player, Cleon Jones, he knew he

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Speaker 2: had messed up. He played as hard out for the

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Speaker 2: team after that.

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Speaker 1: So Hodges sounds firm but fair, and he sounds like

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Speaker 1: someone who could quietly earn respect rather than demanding it

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Speaker 1: by screaming yes.

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Speaker 2: That's the contrast with Durocher. Hodges wouldn't pick on someone

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Speaker 2: weaker than him. But Durocher he loved doing that. Remember,

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Speaker 2: he was terrified of finishing last in anything. There must

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Speaker 2: have been some internal weakness he needed to dominate. One time,

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Speaker 2: right at the end of World War Two, a fan

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Speaker 2: was mocking him. Durocher hated that sort of thing, so

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Speaker 2: he got an off duty policeman to lead the fan

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Speaker 2: to a little room behind the dugout. It was secluded,

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Speaker 2: it was out of sight, and then Durocher gave a signal.

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Speaker 2: The policeman was going to double the fan over, so

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Speaker 2: he hit him with a blackjack.

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Speaker 1: Well it's a blackjack.

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Speaker 2: A blackjack is like a truncheon, but much meaner and

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Speaker 2: often with a big, heavy metal tip. Well, after the

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Speaker 2: policeman did that, the fan was weak, so Derochier got

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Speaker 2: to work. He started punching him in the face. The

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Speaker 2: fan tried to get away, but he was a veteran

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Speaker 2: actually of World War two. He was wounded. He had

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Speaker 2: a damaged leg. So de Rocher kept a hold with

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Speaker 2: one hand and with the other hand he pulled his

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Speaker 2: fist back and he punched him in the face. And

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Speaker 2: he punched him in the face over and over, breaking

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Speaker 2: his jaw. I have had the joy and misfortune of

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Speaker 2: spending a certain amount of my life around boxing rings.

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Speaker 2: It takes a lot of work to break somebody's jaw.

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Speaker 2: Even the policeman thought that was too much. What are

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Speaker 2: you doing, Leo, he said, that's from his testimony in court.

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Speaker 2: Later he repeated it, what are you doing? But even

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Speaker 2: the policeman was too scared of Durocher to stop him.

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Speaker 2: The fan was an hospital for weeks.

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Speaker 3: It went to court, which means it's all over for Derosia. Surely, yeah, right,

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Speaker 3: This was New York City. Almost all the jurors were

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Speaker 3: Brooklyn Dodgers fans. They determined and thought about the case

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Speaker 3: for something like eleven minutes. Durocher was cleared.

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Speaker 1: Deroche was cleared. I suppose that figures. So he got

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Speaker 1: away with it, and his treatment of his players sounds

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Speaker 1: very different to the way Hodges behaved too.

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Speaker 2: It certainly was a Durosier had a lot of baseball

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Speaker 2: knowledge to share, and one of the strengths about being

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Speaker 2: a jerk is that you can actually be objective. If

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Speaker 2: a famous player was weak, he'd bench him. If an

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Speaker 2: unknown player was strong, he'd let him play. So that

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Speaker 2: part of it was good. On the other hand, he

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Speaker 2: couldn't stop from booling everyone, absolutely everyone, including players on

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Speaker 2: his own team. And since he loved spending money and

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Speaker 2: he had his tendency to get married and then divorced,

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Speaker 2: and then married and then divorced, he did that about

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Speaker 2: three or four times. From all that, he was in

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Speaker 2: debt a lot. So he started cheating when he played

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Speaker 2: cards with his own players, and he'd cheat when he

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Speaker 2: played craps games with them, throwing the dice. He knew

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Speaker 2: a little about how to do that already, but he

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Speaker 2: liked hanging out with gangsters and he learned more.

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Speaker 1: So he learned more about how to cheat.

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Speaker 2: He certainly did. He got really good at it. And

430
00:23:27,690 --> 00:23:30,490
Speaker 2: you know what, he found cheating against guys who were

431
00:23:30,530 --> 00:23:32,490
Speaker 2: grown up, who have been playing ball lived in New

432
00:23:32,570 --> 00:23:35,210
Speaker 2: Yorker big cities for a while. Those guys were really

433
00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:38,370
Speaker 2: hard to hustle. So he looked at sweet boys just

434
00:23:38,450 --> 00:23:41,330
Speaker 2: coming in from the farms. America was much more rural

435
00:23:41,370 --> 00:23:43,770
Speaker 2: than it is now, and he would tell these boys,

436
00:23:44,010 --> 00:23:46,290
Speaker 2: you want to make it in New York City, here's

437
00:23:46,330 --> 00:23:48,770
Speaker 2: an easy way. There's a card game. The rules are

438
00:23:48,850 --> 00:23:51,450
Speaker 2: very simple, but you got to bet big kid, you

439
00:23:51,530 --> 00:23:54,210
Speaker 2: gotta bet big, so he would start cheating, not on

440
00:23:54,290 --> 00:23:58,130
Speaker 2: small bets but for huge stakes. Finally, the baseball commissioner

441
00:23:58,130 --> 00:24:00,330
Speaker 2: got rumors of this and he told him to stop.

442
00:24:00,850 --> 00:24:04,250
Speaker 2: Leo du Rocher was unimpressed when anybody told him to stop.

443
00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:07,210
Speaker 2: He kept going. In one craps game, he rigged the

444
00:24:07,250 --> 00:24:10,610
Speaker 2: dice so much that he nearly in corrupted a leading pitcher.

445
00:24:11,250 --> 00:24:14,530
Speaker 2: But that was against Hicks. When he tried keeping up

446
00:24:14,570 --> 00:24:18,210
Speaker 2: with professional gamblers, he wasn't so lucky. He kept on losing,

447
00:24:18,250 --> 00:24:20,810
Speaker 2: and he kept on losing, and it meant he needed

448
00:24:20,850 --> 00:24:23,890
Speaker 2: to rig games even more than he ever had before.

449
00:24:24,490 --> 00:24:27,530
Speaker 2: And whenever the administrators tried to rein him in, well,

450
00:24:28,090 --> 00:24:30,490
Speaker 2: he let sports writers know what he felt about the

451
00:24:30,570 --> 00:24:33,370
Speaker 2: big wigs in the offices. Because of that, in the

452
00:24:33,450 --> 00:24:37,050
Speaker 2: late nineteen forties, de Rocher got suspended for an entire season.

453
00:24:37,690 --> 00:24:40,130
Speaker 2: He was allowed back the following year, but that was

454
00:24:40,170 --> 00:24:43,050
Speaker 2: his big weakness. He'd really set up an enemy. The

455
00:24:43,090 --> 00:24:45,490
Speaker 2: powers that be had it in for him because of

456
00:24:45,530 --> 00:24:48,690
Speaker 2: the gambling, mostly, but also because of the way he

457
00:24:48,770 --> 00:24:52,170
Speaker 2: kept doing whatever worked. In nineteen fifty three, for example,

458
00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:54,650
Speaker 2: there was an opposing team that had a player who

459
00:24:54,690 --> 00:24:57,250
Speaker 2: was very effective. A player was Carl Ferrillo.

460
00:24:57,530 --> 00:24:57,970
Speaker 1: He was the.

461
00:24:57,930 --> 00:25:01,010
Speaker 2: Best hitter in the National League, a dangerous opponent for

462
00:25:01,050 --> 00:25:04,570
Speaker 2: Derosier's team. Well, de Rocher wanted to get him out

463
00:25:04,610 --> 00:25:06,770
Speaker 2: of the game, so he had his own pitcher hit

464
00:25:06,770 --> 00:25:09,890
Speaker 2: Forrilla with a pitch and then de Roucher wagged his

465
00:25:09,930 --> 00:25:14,250
Speaker 2: finger at him, mocking what had happened. Forrilla was furious,

466
00:25:14,290 --> 00:25:17,810
Speaker 2: he charged into the dugout. That was exactly what Durocher hoped,

467
00:25:18,250 --> 00:25:21,010
Speaker 2: and so in the safety of the dugout, du Rocher

468
00:25:21,290 --> 00:25:24,530
Speaker 2: or maybe some players he'd arranged in advance, they very

469
00:25:24,610 --> 00:25:28,050
Speaker 2: quickly shattered Forerrillo's wrist. The poor guy was out for

470
00:25:28,090 --> 00:25:31,530
Speaker 2: the entire season. The competition was now easier.

471
00:25:31,690 --> 00:25:34,090
Speaker 1: Wow. So he sounds like someone who would stop but

472
00:25:34,290 --> 00:25:35,970
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing to win.

473
00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:40,330
Speaker 2: He was, but that meant winning was the only thing

474
00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:43,690
Speaker 2: he had to offer. The moment he stopped winning, nobody

475
00:25:43,730 --> 00:25:45,170
Speaker 2: was going to give him a second chance. There was

476
00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:47,930
Speaker 2: no loyalty, there was no friendship. So when the New

477
00:25:48,050 --> 00:25:50,250
Speaker 2: York Giants that he was managing, when they had a

478
00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:54,050
Speaker 2: poor season in nineteen fifty five, he was out fired.

479
00:25:54,330 --> 00:25:56,690
Speaker 2: He'd bit in New York since Babe Ruth Yankees back

480
00:25:56,730 --> 00:25:59,210
Speaker 2: in the nineteen twenties. So what was he going to

481
00:25:59,250 --> 00:26:01,810
Speaker 2: do now? Other teams didn't want to hire him, or

482
00:26:01,810 --> 00:26:04,850
Speaker 2: at least the top teams didn't. The gambling, the violence,

483
00:26:04,850 --> 00:26:07,170
Speaker 2: They knew about that. It was too much, and he

484
00:26:07,210 --> 00:26:09,170
Speaker 2: wasn't going to let anyone see him be weak, So

485
00:26:09,250 --> 00:26:11,850
Speaker 2: he wasn't going to beg What he said instead was

486
00:26:12,050 --> 00:26:14,970
Speaker 2: I've had enough, I'm retiring from baseball.

487
00:26:15,010 --> 00:26:18,090
Speaker 1: But by nineteen sixty nine, when you are about the

488
00:26:18,130 --> 00:26:22,170
Speaker 1: turn thirteen, Deroche's back on the scene with the Chicago Cubs.

489
00:26:22,210 --> 00:26:24,890
Speaker 2: Right, that's it. When he was fired in New York,

490
00:26:25,010 --> 00:26:27,810
Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot he could do. He tried broadcasting

491
00:26:27,850 --> 00:26:29,930
Speaker 2: and he wasn't bad at it, but it didn't mean

492
00:26:30,010 --> 00:26:32,450
Speaker 2: much to him. Not after being right at the center

493
00:26:32,530 --> 00:26:35,290
Speaker 2: in the stadium. He was actually in an episode of

494
00:26:35,290 --> 00:26:37,530
Speaker 2: a TV show with a talking horse.

495
00:26:37,610 --> 00:26:38,770
Speaker 1: Oh classy.

496
00:26:38,810 --> 00:26:42,410
Speaker 2: Curiously, I remember that show and I remember that horse.

497
00:26:42,610 --> 00:26:45,770
Speaker 2: My poor parents had to sit while we enjoyed it. Anyways,

498
00:26:46,130 --> 00:26:49,490
Speaker 2: for Durocher, that sort of episode was enough. Late in

499
00:26:49,570 --> 00:26:52,250
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five, he was sixty one years old, he

500
00:26:52,330 --> 00:26:56,290
Speaker 2: signed up to manage the Chicago Cubs. My Chicago Cubs.

501
00:26:56,690 --> 00:26:57,650
Speaker 1: So what did you make of all this.

502
00:26:57,730 --> 00:27:00,410
Speaker 2: At the time, I was a kid, so I really

503
00:27:00,450 --> 00:27:03,570
Speaker 2: only had the faintest hint. He was famous. He'd played

504
00:27:03,570 --> 00:27:05,970
Speaker 2: with Babe Ruth, He'd led New York teams to the

505
00:27:05,970 --> 00:27:08,850
Speaker 2: World Series. There was talk that he was rough, maybe

506
00:27:08,890 --> 00:27:12,010
Speaker 2: too rough, But remember this was Chicago. We were proud

507
00:27:12,050 --> 00:27:14,210
Speaker 2: of that, and he didn't do much his first year

508
00:27:14,290 --> 00:27:18,450
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six. The Cubs weren't that impressive a team yet.

509
00:27:18,730 --> 00:27:21,290
Speaker 2: They had one star player, Ernie Banks, but they had

510
00:27:21,290 --> 00:27:24,450
Speaker 2: barely had a winning season in twenty years. Like I said,

511
00:27:24,530 --> 00:27:27,250
Speaker 2: we Cubs fans knew pain, we were used to it.

512
00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:30,890
Speaker 2: But the thing is, he was a jerk. He was

513
00:27:30,930 --> 00:27:34,050
Speaker 2: a curmudgeon, et cetera, et cetera. But he really was skilled.

514
00:27:34,490 --> 00:27:37,890
Speaker 2: He brought up promising youngsters. He knew tactics very well.

515
00:27:38,210 --> 00:27:41,690
Speaker 2: In nineteen sixty seven they did better. Nineteen sixty eight

516
00:27:41,850 --> 00:27:45,290
Speaker 2: was also good, and then came nineteen sixty nine. That

517
00:27:45,450 --> 00:27:48,090
Speaker 2: was your summer that it was. I was twelve, I

518
00:27:48,130 --> 00:27:50,850
Speaker 2: was about to turn thirteen. The city had been through

519
00:27:50,890 --> 00:27:53,850
Speaker 2: a lot. Just the year before, there were terrible riots.

520
00:27:54,050 --> 00:27:56,490
Speaker 2: I remember on a big street just a few yards

521
00:27:56,490 --> 00:28:00,090
Speaker 2: from my home, watching jeeps with barbed wire on them,

522
00:28:00,570 --> 00:28:03,610
Speaker 2: National Guard troops with machine guns and a really fierce

523
00:28:03,690 --> 00:28:06,570
Speaker 2: look in their face going down the street to where

524
00:28:06,570 --> 00:28:08,890
Speaker 2: the riots were going to be. Well, we were kind

525
00:28:08,890 --> 00:28:11,050
Speaker 2: of a blue collar city. We liked the idea that

526
00:28:11,090 --> 00:28:12,970
Speaker 2: we were tough, but we also liked the idea that

527
00:28:13,010 --> 00:28:15,810
Speaker 2: we hung together. This new manager, he seemed to be

528
00:28:15,850 --> 00:28:19,530
Speaker 2: showing that was possible. Being tough could unite everybody.

529
00:28:20,090 --> 00:28:22,290
Speaker 1: And you were hanging out. You were going to watch

530
00:28:22,330 --> 00:28:24,290
Speaker 1: every game, although when you're you supposed to be at.

531
00:28:24,170 --> 00:28:28,410
Speaker 2: School, school, schmool. We thought of it more as guidelines.

532
00:28:28,890 --> 00:28:31,290
Speaker 2: The team got off to such a good start back

533
00:28:31,290 --> 00:28:34,570
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty nine, starting in April, it was kind

534
00:28:34,610 --> 00:28:37,170
Speaker 2: of hard to resist. And then in the summer when

535
00:28:37,170 --> 00:28:39,490
Speaker 2: we were still ahead and there was no school, we

536
00:28:39,490 --> 00:28:42,170
Speaker 2: were almost living there. And also there was that promise

537
00:28:42,210 --> 00:28:46,570
Speaker 2: of the kiss if the Cubs won the division. Now

538
00:28:46,650 --> 00:28:50,170
Speaker 2: in mid August, that seemed certain. I was a very

539
00:28:50,490 --> 00:28:53,410
Speaker 2: very happy twelve year old. Hodge's New York Mets were

540
00:28:53,450 --> 00:28:56,730
Speaker 2: well behind. The season was just six weeks from ending.

541
00:28:57,050 --> 00:29:00,730
Speaker 2: They would have to undergo the greatest losing streak in

542
00:29:00,810 --> 00:29:03,650
Speaker 2: the history of American baseball to miss out.

543
00:29:04,330 --> 00:29:08,050
Speaker 1: Hm Well, there is about to be a showdown between

544
00:29:08,130 --> 00:29:11,570
Speaker 1: Hodges de Rochia, and there's a kiss on the line.

545
00:29:12,170 --> 00:29:27,210
Speaker 1: More on all of that after the break, we're back.

546
00:29:27,330 --> 00:29:30,570
Speaker 1: I'm in the studio with David Bananas and David casting

547
00:29:30,610 --> 00:29:34,730
Speaker 1: your mind back to being twelve years old, that amazing summer,

548
00:29:35,570 --> 00:29:38,650
Speaker 1: the romance, the excitement, that the thrill of being on

549
00:29:38,690 --> 00:29:41,690
Speaker 1: a winning team. That's how it seemed to you. Then

550
00:29:42,290 --> 00:29:43,690
Speaker 1: what have you learned since then?

551
00:29:44,050 --> 00:29:46,090
Speaker 2: Well, there are a lot of things I didn't realize.

552
00:29:46,450 --> 00:29:49,170
Speaker 2: It's kind of nice being twelve years old and very,

553
00:29:49,450 --> 00:29:51,890
Speaker 2: very innocent. One of the things I didn't know was

554
00:29:52,010 --> 00:29:55,730
Speaker 2: how callous Durocher could really be, breaking that veteran's jaw

555
00:29:56,010 --> 00:30:00,250
Speaker 2: hanging around with gangsters, and these gangsters were pretty nasty people.

556
00:30:00,850 --> 00:30:03,370
Speaker 2: One of the men in a circle was Buggsy Siegel

557
00:30:03,570 --> 00:30:07,330
Speaker 2: of Gangster, famous for organizing contract killing and helping the

558
00:30:07,370 --> 00:30:10,930
Speaker 2: mafia take over early Las Vegas. Another thing I didn't

559
00:30:10,930 --> 00:30:14,410
Speaker 2: realize was how much this season meant to Durocher. There

560
00:30:14,410 --> 00:30:16,890
Speaker 2: were financial bonuses if you won, and they were even

561
00:30:16,930 --> 00:30:19,930
Speaker 2: bigger bonuses if you got into the World Series. He'd

562
00:30:19,970 --> 00:30:22,450
Speaker 2: lost a lot of money and gambling, and he had

563
00:30:22,490 --> 00:30:26,250
Speaker 2: his big lifestyle with all those divorces, and he needed

564
00:30:26,330 --> 00:30:27,330
Speaker 2: his cash.

565
00:30:27,450 --> 00:30:30,410
Speaker 1: So what about his attitude to his players? Is there

566
00:30:30,610 --> 00:30:32,450
Speaker 1: any sign that he was starting to mellow.

567
00:30:32,930 --> 00:30:35,410
Speaker 2: Well, that's also what I had no idea about at

568
00:30:35,410 --> 00:30:38,450
Speaker 2: the time. At batting practice, he'd swear a little bit,

569
00:30:38,610 --> 00:30:42,050
Speaker 2: but this was Chicago who didn't swear. What I missed

570
00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:45,090
Speaker 2: was how vicious he was to the players. The shortstop

571
00:30:45,370 --> 00:30:48,410
Speaker 2: Ron Santo was Italian American, and I also had diabetes

572
00:30:48,850 --> 00:30:51,810
Speaker 2: in that era. He had to hide it well. Durocher

573
00:30:51,930 --> 00:30:55,090
Speaker 2: kept on riding him and swearing right up to his face,

574
00:30:55,210 --> 00:30:59,250
Speaker 2: calling him weak, using really vicious insults about Italian Americans,

575
00:30:59,490 --> 00:31:01,450
Speaker 2: but not in a sort of joky way that some

576
00:31:01,490 --> 00:31:04,450
Speaker 2: people might do for bonding. It was deep, it was biting.

577
00:31:04,970 --> 00:31:07,690
Speaker 2: Santo was a calm guy, but even he cracked in

578
00:31:07,730 --> 00:31:10,170
Speaker 2: the clubhouse. One time he grabbed du Rocher by the

579
00:31:10,250 --> 00:31:13,770
Speaker 2: throat and he wanted to kill him. His teammates had

580
00:31:13,810 --> 00:31:14,490
Speaker 2: to pull him off.

581
00:31:14,930 --> 00:31:19,210
Speaker 1: So Deochia, he's famous for bringing the black player Jackie

582
00:31:19,290 --> 00:31:23,250
Speaker 1: Robinson on the team, but he's using these slurs against

583
00:31:23,290 --> 00:31:25,530
Speaker 1: Italian Americans. I'm trying to work it. Was he a racist?

584
00:31:25,610 --> 00:31:26,570
Speaker 1: Was he not a racist?

585
00:31:26,970 --> 00:31:30,890
Speaker 2: It was probably mixed. He was a derosierist. Everyone knew

586
00:31:30,890 --> 00:31:33,450
Speaker 2: about him bringing on Jackie Robinson. That was good. But

587
00:31:33,530 --> 00:31:36,210
Speaker 2: the thing is he didn't bring Robinson on because he

588
00:31:36,250 --> 00:31:39,570
Speaker 2: was standing up for the principles of racial equality. Derochier

589
00:31:39,610 --> 00:31:42,250
Speaker 2: never stood up for any principles. He didn't even especially

590
00:31:42,370 --> 00:31:45,330
Speaker 2: like Robinson. He just wanted to win. Robinson was a

591
00:31:45,370 --> 00:31:48,850
Speaker 2: great player. Turned out a little bit later, Robinson had

592
00:31:48,850 --> 00:31:51,650
Speaker 2: a problem with his weight, and de Rocher started insulting

593
00:31:51,730 --> 00:31:56,010
Speaker 2: him so hard and so NonStop that even Jackie Robinson

594
00:31:56,090 --> 00:31:59,850
Speaker 2: ended up hating him just as much as everyone else did. Now,

595
00:31:59,930 --> 00:32:03,890
Speaker 2: a true racist puts their race first. Derochier was simpler.

596
00:32:04,250 --> 00:32:06,610
Speaker 2: He just put himself first.

597
00:32:06,930 --> 00:32:09,450
Speaker 1: And above all, he wanted to win. So did all

598
00:32:09,490 --> 00:32:10,370
Speaker 1: this bullying help.

599
00:32:10,690 --> 00:32:13,010
Speaker 2: That's what gave me such pleasure when I looked into

600
00:32:13,050 --> 00:32:16,050
Speaker 2: it properly for the book. No, the bullying did not help.

601
00:32:16,490 --> 00:32:19,690
Speaker 2: He would demand too much, he would go too far.

602
00:32:20,610 --> 00:32:24,610
Speaker 2: Durocher kept his players going without replacement much much longer

603
00:32:24,690 --> 00:32:27,450
Speaker 2: than he should have. Chicago's really hot in the summer,

604
00:32:27,570 --> 00:32:30,650
Speaker 2: and it could be near one hundred percent humidity, feels tropical.

605
00:32:31,170 --> 00:32:35,090
Speaker 2: But day after day, week after week, he wouldn't allow replacements.

606
00:32:35,170 --> 00:32:36,650
Speaker 1: That seems so counterproductive.

607
00:32:36,970 --> 00:32:39,690
Speaker 2: You're right. I think he'd liked seeing his players get

608
00:32:39,730 --> 00:32:42,450
Speaker 2: weaker and weaker. It's kind of weird, but it made

609
00:32:42,490 --> 00:32:45,610
Speaker 2: him feel strong. And then there were the umpires, exactly

610
00:32:46,370 --> 00:32:48,410
Speaker 2: in front of the TV cameras. He'd ham it up,

611
00:32:48,450 --> 00:32:50,490
Speaker 2: he'd stand toe to toe, he would yell at them.

612
00:32:50,570 --> 00:32:52,690
Speaker 2: It seemed like a game, but it was more than

613
00:32:52,730 --> 00:32:56,250
Speaker 2: a game. In quieter moments when he was alone away

614
00:32:56,290 --> 00:33:00,010
Speaker 2: from the cameras, he'd really tried to undermine the umpires,

615
00:33:00,210 --> 00:33:02,690
Speaker 2: saying the most personal things he could find out about

616
00:33:02,730 --> 00:33:05,770
Speaker 2: their private lives. Now, you've got to remember there were

617
00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:08,170
Speaker 2: barely any video reviews of calls. Then.

618
00:33:08,890 --> 00:33:12,170
Speaker 1: The umpires had a lot of discretion, and making an

619
00:33:12,250 --> 00:33:13,530
Speaker 1: enemy of them wasn't smart.

620
00:33:13,690 --> 00:33:17,330
Speaker 2: It certainly was that. One sports writer wrote about it later.

621
00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:21,210
Speaker 2: Quote Whether or not Leo ever united the Cubs against

622
00:33:21,210 --> 00:33:26,690
Speaker 2: the Empires, he certainly united the umpires against the Cubs unquote.

623
00:33:26,770 --> 00:33:30,810
Speaker 2: And then well, Durocher also encouraged the most unruly of

624
00:33:30,850 --> 00:33:34,090
Speaker 2: the fans, people I knew pretty well to throw metal

625
00:33:34,170 --> 00:33:37,850
Speaker 2: bolts or sometimes small stones at opposing players. The other

626
00:33:37,930 --> 00:33:42,290
Speaker 2: teams hated that, and when they complained, du Rocher professed

627
00:33:42,410 --> 00:33:43,730
Speaker 2: complete innocence.

628
00:33:44,770 --> 00:33:49,330
Speaker 1: Even so, despite all the counter productive bullying, by mid August,

629
00:33:49,690 --> 00:33:51,930
Speaker 1: the season is going to be over early October. By

630
00:33:52,010 --> 00:33:55,490
Speaker 1: mid August, as you said, Chicago was way ahead, I

631
00:33:55,530 --> 00:33:58,850
Speaker 1: think nine games ahead. So the only way they could

632
00:33:58,850 --> 00:34:01,650
Speaker 1: lose would be if hodges Met had one of the

633
00:34:01,770 --> 00:34:06,850
Speaker 1: greatest winning streaks in baseball history and Derosia's Cubs had

634
00:34:06,890 --> 00:34:09,810
Speaker 1: one of the greatest losing streaks in baseball.

635
00:34:09,970 --> 00:34:12,130
Speaker 2: You had to remind me to him, didn't you. It

636
00:34:12,170 --> 00:34:15,330
Speaker 2: was a mess, it was a catastrophe. It's still I

637
00:34:15,370 --> 00:34:18,850
Speaker 2: swear to god, it still hurts. The umpires hated to Rocher,

638
00:34:19,050 --> 00:34:21,770
Speaker 2: and opposing players hated d Rocher and his own team

639
00:34:21,970 --> 00:34:25,650
Speaker 2: really really hated him because he needed to feel strong

640
00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:28,410
Speaker 2: and humiliate them, and he wouldn't give the starters a rest.

641
00:34:28,770 --> 00:34:31,850
Speaker 2: They were getting exhausted. It's not that they totally gave up.

642
00:34:31,970 --> 00:34:34,930
Speaker 2: They still had some pride. They're professional athletes. But by then,

643
00:34:35,010 --> 00:34:38,730
Speaker 2: the constant bullying, the yelling, the unfairness, it was too much.

644
00:34:39,250 --> 00:34:42,730
Speaker 2: Everyone else was bringing their strongest game against Chicago. Our

645
00:34:42,770 --> 00:34:46,410
Speaker 2: players had to be on top. They weren't. When it

646
00:34:46,450 --> 00:34:49,290
Speaker 2: first began to happen, the losing, we didn't realize what

647
00:34:49,370 --> 00:34:51,810
Speaker 2: was going on. Every team loses a bit, and so

648
00:34:52,130 --> 00:34:55,130
Speaker 2: that was okay. But it kept on, and when we

649
00:34:55,210 --> 00:34:58,290
Speaker 2: hung out at the field edge during batting practice before

650
00:34:58,330 --> 00:35:01,370
Speaker 2: the games, there was this feeling that something was different.

651
00:35:01,730 --> 00:35:03,850
Speaker 2: The players were in a different zone. There was less

652
00:35:03,930 --> 00:35:06,850
Speaker 2: joking between them. There was a kind of doggedness as

653
00:35:06,890 --> 00:35:10,370
Speaker 2: they practice. We shared it too when my friends and

654
00:35:10,410 --> 00:35:12,610
Speaker 2: I and the other kids from around the city, when

655
00:35:12,610 --> 00:35:15,210
Speaker 2: we cleaned the stadium after the games, if anyone who

656
00:35:15,250 --> 00:35:17,570
Speaker 2: was lifting the seats and sweeping down the garbage started

657
00:35:17,610 --> 00:35:20,330
Speaker 2: to say hey, they'd be okay, we don't look at him,

658
00:35:20,530 --> 00:35:23,210
Speaker 2: you didn't talk about it. If we were very quiet

659
00:35:23,250 --> 00:35:26,130
Speaker 2: and very ordinary, maybe we'd all go away.

660
00:35:26,530 --> 00:35:29,410
Speaker 1: And obviously it did not all go away.

661
00:35:30,010 --> 00:35:32,770
Speaker 2: We'd been in first place for one hundred and fifty

662
00:35:32,850 --> 00:35:36,970
Speaker 2: five consecutive days and then we lost it all. Everything

663
00:35:36,970 --> 00:35:39,210
Speaker 2: fell apart. The city was going to be united, and

664
00:35:39,250 --> 00:35:41,610
Speaker 2: me and my school friends we were getting more united.

665
00:35:42,130 --> 00:35:44,850
Speaker 2: But these players, we'd look up to, the cubs, who

666
00:35:44,850 --> 00:35:47,250
Speaker 2: are going to make up for the past and finally

667
00:35:47,770 --> 00:35:50,970
Speaker 2: finally go all the way they lost it. Who could

668
00:35:51,010 --> 00:35:54,490
Speaker 2: we trust? Everything felt different at school, at home, everywhere.

669
00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:59,730
Speaker 2: The Mets won the division, and the kiss pleased. We

670
00:35:59,770 --> 00:36:02,170
Speaker 2: were friends, we were kids in a sense, it would

671
00:36:02,170 --> 00:36:04,370
Speaker 2: have been nothing. We even stayed friends, but at the

672
00:36:04,410 --> 00:36:06,170
Speaker 2: time just made everything worse.

673
00:36:06,890 --> 00:36:08,810
Speaker 1: And how far did Gil Hodge's team go?

674
00:36:09,450 --> 00:36:12,290
Speaker 2: Well after beating us to take the National League East,

675
00:36:12,410 --> 00:36:15,210
Speaker 2: they won the playoffs for the entire National League, and

676
00:36:15,250 --> 00:36:18,250
Speaker 2: then they were into the World Series against Baltimore. I

677
00:36:18,290 --> 00:36:21,010
Speaker 2: was listening to the series on the radio. Now the

678
00:36:21,050 --> 00:36:25,530
Speaker 2: player that Hodges publicly reprimanded, Cleon Jones. In the fifth game,

679
00:36:25,610 --> 00:36:28,730
Speaker 2: he gave his all in a spectacular catch that won

680
00:36:28,850 --> 00:36:34,170
Speaker 2: the series for the New York Mets. Mister de Rocher

681
00:36:34,250 --> 00:36:37,130
Speaker 2: and my cubbies were nowhere to be seen.

682
00:36:37,930 --> 00:36:40,890
Speaker 1: David, my heart bleeds. It is a tragedy, but on

683
00:36:40,970 --> 00:36:44,210
Speaker 1: caution details We try to learn from tragedy. So what

684
00:36:44,410 --> 00:36:45,930
Speaker 1: is your conclusion from this story.

685
00:36:46,610 --> 00:36:50,850
Speaker 2: It's pretty simple. Being too soft will not work, but

686
00:36:50,970 --> 00:36:54,850
Speaker 2: being too harsh that's easily counterproductive too. There is a

687
00:36:54,890 --> 00:36:58,610
Speaker 2: path in between being fair like Hodges, not a bully

688
00:36:58,650 --> 00:37:02,530
Speaker 2: like Derocher. This really can be the way to finish.

689
00:37:02,290 --> 00:37:05,770
Speaker 1: First David, it's been enjoyed. Thank you so much for

690
00:37:05,850 --> 00:37:06,290
Speaker 1: joining me.

691
00:37:06,810 --> 00:37:07,530
Speaker 2: A great pleasure.

692
00:37:09,410 --> 00:37:13,610
Speaker 1: David Bardanas's wonderful book is the Art of Fairness. It

693
00:37:13,690 --> 00:37:17,330
Speaker 1: is available at all good bookshops, naturally full of great stories,

694
00:37:17,610 --> 00:37:20,690
Speaker 1: and every single one has a lesson about how to

695
00:37:20,770 --> 00:37:24,650
Speaker 1: succeed without being a jerk. We're going back to our

696
00:37:24,770 --> 00:37:28,050
Speaker 1: usual format next episode, but we will be telling several

697
00:37:28,090 --> 00:37:30,970
Speaker 1: stories inspired by the Art of Fairness. So join me

698
00:37:31,370 --> 00:37:35,370
Speaker 1: for stories of villains undone by their villainy, monstrous, self

699
00:37:35,410 --> 00:37:40,250
Speaker 1: devouring egos, and accounts of the extraordinary power of decency

700
00:37:40,650 --> 00:37:49,250
Speaker 1: next time on Cautionary Tales. Cautionary Tales is written by

701
00:37:49,290 --> 00:37:53,530
Speaker 1: me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. This mini series is

702
00:37:53,530 --> 00:37:57,410
Speaker 1: based on David Bandanas's book The Art of Fairness, The

703
00:37:57,450 --> 00:38:00,570
Speaker 1: Power of Decency in a World Turned Mean, and it

704
00:38:00,650 --> 00:38:04,290
Speaker 1: was written with David Bandanas himself. For a full list

705
00:38:04,290 --> 00:38:08,690
Speaker 1: of our sources, see the show notes at Timharford dot com.

706
00:38:08,770 --> 00:38:11,890
Speaker 1: The show was produced by Alice Fines, with Marilyn Rust.

707
00:38:12,210 --> 00:38:14,730
Speaker 1: The sound design and original music for the work of

708
00:38:14,810 --> 00:38:20,450
Speaker 1: Pascal Wise. Sarah Nix edited the script. Cautionary Tales features

709
00:38:20,450 --> 00:38:24,410
Speaker 1: the voice talents of Ben Crowe, Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford,

710
00:38:24,570 --> 00:38:28,890
Speaker 1: Jemma Saunders and rufus Wright. The show wouldn't have been

711
00:38:28,930 --> 00:38:33,170
Speaker 1: possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilly, Greta Cohen,

712
00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:39,170
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Carrie Brody, Christina Sullivan, Kira Posey and Owen Miller.

713
00:38:39,970 --> 00:38:44,290
Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded

714
00:38:44,330 --> 00:38:48,330
Speaker 1: at ward Or Studios in London by Tom Gerry. If

715
00:38:48,370 --> 00:38:52,170
Speaker 1: you like the show, please remember to share, rate and review.

716
00:38:52,250 --> 00:38:55,330
Speaker 1: It doesn't really make a difference to us and if

717
00:38:55,330 --> 00:38:58,090
Speaker 1: you want to hear the show ad free, sign up

718
00:38:58,130 --> 00:39:01,690
Speaker 1: to Pushkin Plus on the show page on Apple Podcasts

719
00:39:01,850 --> 00:39:12,970
Speaker 1: or at pushkin dot fm, slash plus. The present is