WEBVTT - Complexity | Stacey's Story 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:04.960 We're dealing with a person who does not have empathy, 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:08.920 who does not have morality, and who is able to 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:31.080 completely shapeshift their behavior for their own selfish motivations and agenda. 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:40.520 I'm Andrea Gunning. This is Betrayal, Season three, episode six Complexity. 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:45.440 Justin's sentencing for rape and voyeurism marked an ending, an 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.960 end to Justin's reign of terror, to years of manipulation 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.280 and abuse, and to the Rutherford family worrying about whether 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:57.160 justice would be served. Justin would be locked up for decades. 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.639 Tyler was finally free of him. I told everyone, I'm 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:05.800 ready to stop letting this shape our life. Everything's done now. 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.760 I was done with it, but Stacy wasn't done. For 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.759 two years, she carried the weight of guilt, shame, horror, 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:17.880 and deep sadness and was nurturing wounds of her own. 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:22.720 During many conversations with Stacy, she expressed sincere interest in 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:27.120 examining her own grief and emotions surrounding the aftermath. It's 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.280 not something that comes naturally to her. After Justin was sentenced, 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.480 her process was just starting, and to her credit, she 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:37.160 was completely honest about it. 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:40.839 When court was finally over after three years, of dealing 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.080 with this stuff. My dad was like, I'm glad it's over. 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.560 We can put this all behind us and you can 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.080 start moving on with your life. 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.160 From the moment Stacy learned the truth about Justin, she 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.080 prioritized her kids and their healing. As you can imagine, 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:58.000 she was concerned about Tyler and focused her energy on 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.640 his needs, and then there was the support that Mikayla 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.680 and the littles needed as well, so there was little 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.280 to no space for herself. I've gotten to know Tyler 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:10.600 and michaela over the last few months, and I can 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:15.440 confidently say that Stacy raised two bright and emotionally intelligent individuals. 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.040 They were old enough to understand that Stacy was putting 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:21.519 on a brave face and they worried about her. 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:24.720 When the older kids would ask me how I was doing, 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.080 I would always just say to them, as long as 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:28.280 you're okay, I'm okay. 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.640 Stacy was strong for her kids, and when it seemed 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.840 like the family was finding their footing the grief she 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:38.400 had been suppressing weird its ugly head. 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.320 I spent so much time trying to tend to this 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:45.680 and tend to that and keep this going. And as 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:48.720 far as my own grief. I feel like I'm just 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:50.760 now starting to kind of get into it. 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.480 But then there was this to reckon with. How could 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:57.480 she make sense of her own grief, let alone explain 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.480 it to other people. She was a shamed of her 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:03.760 thoughts and feelings, So we looked for someone who could 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.800 help Stacy work through everything she was experiencing and maybe, 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.480 in the process, enlighten the rest of us. We introduced 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:16.880 Stacy to Jordan Dan. She is a licensed psychologist, psychoanalyst, author, teacher, 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.640 and speaker. She is also the author of Somatic Therapy 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:25.640 for Healing Trauma and the creator of the Relationship Transformation Method. 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:30.040 Stacy and Jordan allowed us to record their sessions. If 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.160 you've listened to Betrayal season one and two, you heard 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.200 a similar process with Jennifer Fason and Ashley Linton. I 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.680 would like to preface this episode by saying that for 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.880 the next twenty minutes, we're going to explore the many emotions, thoughts, 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.680 and shame Stacy was left to work through as a 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.280 critical step to her healing. I also want to note 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:52.600 that in our next episode, we're going to focus on 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.120 Tyler and his healing journey. He's going to meet with 0:03:56.160 --> 0:04:01.160 a beloved Hollywood actor who shares a similar story at betrayal. 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.960 We don't believe in zero sum thinking. There was the 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.360 harm Doneto Tyler, but Stacy was also wounded in her 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:10.440 own way. It's important for us to hold space for 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:15.839 their individual experiences as humans. Hearing some of the complicated 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.880 feelings survivors of betrayal trauma struggle with can be hard 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.839 to understand if you have not been through it, and 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:29.200 sure it's easy to judge, compassion requires going deeper. Here 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:30.159 is Jordan Dan. 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:38.159 People have difficulty tolerating uncomfortable feelings. It's easier to be 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.560 in absolutes because you don't have to feel and be 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:42.719 with the messiness. 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:46.920 Absolutes as in you're either good or evil. 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:52.200 As Stacy holds the complexity of both the betrayal and 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:57.880 the horror and the pain, she's really oscillating between the 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:04.520 reality of this violent behavior, this trauma that her son 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:09.919 has experienced, and also the relationship she thought she was 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:13.800 in that she is actually just starting to grieve. 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.760 Stacy was and still is in a lot of pain. 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.240 Calling back to the good times, thinking of happy memories. 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:28.560 The life they once lived feels like a betrayal, betraying 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.120 her son, betraying herself. 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.599 If I think of the good things, I feel like 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:39.240 I'm a bad mom. That's a slap in the face 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:43.160 to my child that he hurt. I think that's what 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.640 hurts me the most is knowing that I was the 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:48.800 one that brought someone into their life that would do 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:49.880 something like this to them. 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:53.240 But Jordan doesn't see it that way. 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:59.960 Of course, hindsight is twenty twenty. To say I will 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:05.440 wish I had done something is completely understandable. Children do 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.920 everything in their power to hide what is happening to them. 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:15.800 Tyler had so much at stake, not only his own 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:21.480 attachment to justin his own safety, the positive feelings that 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:26.560 were a part of such an abusive relationship, but also 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:32.359 his feelings of responsibility towards his mom, towards the whole family. 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:40.320 Most children, the abuse is actually easier to tolerate than 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.800 the danger and fear of actually saying what's. 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:45.080 Happening to them. 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:48.159 And I think it's easiest to understand in the context 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:53.000 of children with abusive caregivers, to be with the reality 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.839 of a person who they are dependent upon for survival 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:04.120 and is cruel and violent. Is impossible, and so they 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:08.680 have to separate those two aspects of the person. And 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:13.440 often because it's too impossibly painful for a child to 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:17.640 see their parent as bad, the child ends up seeing 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:18.880 themselves as bad. 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:23.280 Stacy examining her own part of where things went wrong 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:24.120 is a good thing. 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:29.360 As parents, we do fail, even with our best intentions. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:33.880 There are moments where we do not offer the protection 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:38.320 the care that our children deserve, and that's just a 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:42.680 part of being human. Her ability to feel that she 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:47.120 failed in her responsibility of protection of her son is 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:49.400 actually a really healthy thing. 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.600 And how could Stacy offer that protection when Justin was 0:07:54.680 --> 0:08:00.320 so good at hiding who he really was? Did she 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.640 really know him or the life she was leading at all? 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.160 When you get to where I'm at now, you know, 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.720 you question yourself and you think, was it ever what 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:16.119 I thought it was? Was anything that I ever felt real? 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.880 Think about the weight of that. If nothing was real? 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.760 The love, the marriage, how are you supposed to reconcile 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:29.800 all the time you spent those hours, those years, that's 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:34.200 the substance of your life, your life's story. Is it 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.960 no longer supposed to be of value because of someone 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:37.880 else's deception? 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:41.600 I question that all the time, and I don't know why. 0:08:41.679 --> 0:08:44.679 I need to know. There's this part of me that 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.160 just wants to know, like you know what, that part 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:48.199 of him wasn't sick. 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:54.240 It's the marriage and relationship dynamic that she misses, and 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.319 it doesn't just live in Stacy's mind. I've seen dozens 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:02.319 of the Rutherford family photos and videos. They appear as 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:06.040 a happy and loving family. Stacy and Justin stand close 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:10.200 together and look like a couple in love. Justin plays 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:11.040 the part. 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:17.080 I really have a lot of compassion for that repetitive 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:23.400 thought that Stacy has. It's really the darkest of possibilities 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:29.320 to face. Is actually nothing about this person, nothing about 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:32.920 the memories we shared together are real. 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.280 Stacy has searched for that validation. 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:41.120 I have had conversations with his best friend where I've 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:43.520 cried to him and said, do you think he ever 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.960 loved me? And he has told me so many times 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.360 he loved you. I know he did well Justin and 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:52.840 I got together. I didn't feel like I had to 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.559 do anything for his love. I just felt like he 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:57.600 just loved me for me, and I loved him for him. 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:01.240 So then when it slaps you in your face, that 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.120 that's not who you married, and that person didn't love you. 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.880 They just wanted what you had. You were just the 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:14.720 thruway to what he really wanted. You start to think, like, Wow, 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:16.160 did you just pretend to love me. 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.800 Jordan's never met Justin, so she isn't going to give 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.240 him any kind of diagnosis, but she did tell Stacy 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:36.600 building this kind of facade is what sexual predators do. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:43.200 I would imagine that Justin was incredibly secretive and your 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:48.840 depth of trust and your love wouldn't have alerted you 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:54.280 to anything that might have been dangerous. And this is 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:59.680 true for you know, all sexual perpetrators. The whole way 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:05.000 of grooming and creating that relationship is all based on 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:12.439 bit and switch of care, warmth, love, and then threats 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:17.120 and cruelty and manipulation. We're dealing with a person who 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.559 does not have empathy, who does not have morality, and 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:27.640 is able to completely shape shift their behavior for their 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.280 own selfish motivations and agenda. 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.760 Listening to Jordan, my takeaway is that sexual predators like 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.360 Justin are acting at a role. They are pretending to 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.040 love you and care about you, but there is an 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:45.280 agenda and at this moment I'm grieving for Stacy because 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.880 no one should be treated like that. It undermines your 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.800 belief in everything. Seeing this for what it is and 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:57.800 digesting this reality, it takes time. Stacy could not be 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.559 a loving and devoted partner one day and completely uncaring 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:03.679 and detached the next. 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:06.640 It's really hard to tell people that you miss that 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:11.240 love because they're such a horrible person. But you can't 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.199 just shut that off like it just doesn't go away. 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:18.440 And that's what I think has been the hardest, with 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:23.760 the exception of my children, being hurt, is grieving that 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.360 but also being okay to grieve it. 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.520 It did there something really precious to you. You lost 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.960 all of these good things and the promise of love. 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.080 You know, when I talk about the good times, I 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:42.320 feel good about it, it makes me miss them. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.800 Stacy misses what she calls her boring life and yearns 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.040 for a time that she felt love, purpose, and contentment 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.520 from her happy and healthy family unit that she thought 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.640 she had. But what she thought she had and what 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.760 was really going on in the darkness were two different things. 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.360 So what Stacy's left with is trying to reconcile the 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.160 version of Justin she knew, which was the loving husband, doctor, 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:12.880 and family man, but the person she recently discovered a 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:17.640 violent predator. Fully integrating those two people is work and 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:19.000 part of Stacy's journey. 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.080 Can you tell me who this person was to you? Actually, 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.760 just look at your hand and put the good qualities 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:28.800 of who he was in that hand. 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:34.959 He was like my answer to everything. He was kind, 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:40.360 he was smart, he was funny, he loved me, and 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.840 I did never feel like I had to beg for that. 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.199 And then what about what would you put in the 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:48.880 left hand? 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:50.720 A monster? 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:54.440 What do you feel in your body, Stacy as you 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:56.760 say monster, tightness? 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:00.680 You know, just like everything tightens up and it's almost 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.520 like it's it's like, it's hard for me to believe 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:05.840 that that's who I'm speaking of. It's hard for me 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:07.760 to see that those are the same person. 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:14.200 I hope you know how normal that is for so 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:19.080 many people. I mean, for people who experience domestic violence. 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:26.520 There's strong attachment even though there's very strong violence. You're 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:30.840 not alone in that complexity of holding both. 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:33.080 Yeah. 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.080 For Stacy, the path to confronting her own grief and 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:41.200 loss could only begin when she knew Tyler was going 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.360 to be okay. 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:45.520 I want to see Tyler be everything that he was 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.240 supposed to be, Tyler living a good life, him thriving, 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:53.280 him not being a statistic, his children not being as statistic. 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.200 Although Jordan has never met Tyler, she has listened to 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.840 the podcast and heard his reasons for wanting to s 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:00.840 his story. 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.520 What I've really valued that I have heard from Tyler 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.920 is that his why for being a part of this 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:15.160 podcast is to let other people and young men in particular, 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.880 but to let other survivors know that they're not alone. 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.200 That ability to feel that he can be a protector 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:28.440 is reparative. The feeling that he can actually give to 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:34.520 someone else what he didn't receive is such an empowering experience. 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:43.240 When victims speak up their desire for truth and repair, 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.720 so often cannot happen with the very person that they 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:51.640 deserve or repair from. We need to hear survivors and 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:56.480 we actually can offer empathy and we actually are a 0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.160 part of repair for that other person. 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.400 Even though Tyler doesn't blame Stacy for what happened to him, 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.320 Jordan says it's possible that anger could eventually bubble to 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:09.920 the surface. 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.160 That can take a long time in the processing for 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:19.520 the adult child to finally feel safe enough to be 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:25.160 angry at their parent. One thing I said to Stacy 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.680 at some point, you need to be ready for that 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.320 to happen. Often those that are implicated and are closest 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.200 to them, like a parent, will not be able to 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:45.200 tolerate the feelings of shame or vulnerability or fear. Paradoxically, 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:50.880 that's the only way forward to be able to tolerate 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:56.920 the shame, admit responsibility, acknowledge the lack of protection. 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:02.280 But through this work, Stacy feels ready for those hard 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.520 conversations whenever they may come. 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.199 I said, there may be a day that you do 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.560 blame me, you do feel angry. I want you to 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.439 come to me when you feel that, because we're going 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:15.800 to need to sit with it. We're going to need 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:16.520 to talk about it. 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.679 So Tyler and Stacy keep an open dialogue. Tyler is 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:22.959 on a good path and healing in his own way. 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:26.280 But what does the next chapter look like for Stacy 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.000 beyond just making sure that everyone else is okay. 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:38.120 I really appreciate that you're centering Tyler as the most 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:46.080 important person to receive justice, but you were also injured deeply, Stacy. Yeah, 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:51.720 so I'm wondering what does justice look like for you? 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:56.679 All I ever wanted was him to tell me he 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:01.960 was sorry, and it wouldn't have fit to bething, but 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:04.040 I just wanted him to say one day to be Stacy, 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:06.480 you didn't deserve any of that. 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.400 Justin actually did say those exact words to Stacy. 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:17.679 You were an amazing spouse and didn't deserve any of this. 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:22.760 But Justin's words lacked sincerity. They felt like they were 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.560 more for the judge than for Stacy. They meant nothing. 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:32.520 When someone causes hurt to you, what you need is 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:39.920 an empathetic expression of remorse. When repair really restoes safety, 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:44.320 it's because the other person has access to empathy. But 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.919 for someone who is actually devoid of empathy, which is 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:53.480 part of their character disorder, that very thing can never happen. 0:18:55.040 --> 0:19:00.160 Consciousness begins when we realize we can't get from I'm 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.320 another person what we've been trying to get, and freedom 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.440 is when we realize we can go get it somewhere else. 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:12.320 Jordan challenged Stacy to look inward and ask herself what 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.680 would it look like for her to create a good 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.639 life and become the person she is supposed to be. 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.439 I want to be able to trust people again. I 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:24.720 want to be able to be in a relationship with 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.800 someone and not think that there's stuff going on that 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.320 I don't know about. I could take you all the 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.639 way back to my first husband with my guilt and 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.119 my shame and my hurt that I've never dealt with that. 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.400 I just went on to another man. Oh it's better. Oh, 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.760 I got a new relationship, but it still followed me 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.800 everywhere because I never dealt with it, and I just 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:49.600 don't want that for the rest of my life. 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:56.000 This experience with Justin is not the first time you've 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:03.800 had an experience of two parallel reality is happening simultaneously. 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:05.960 Does that feel true for you? 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.639 Oh yeah, My first husband left me dray years for 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.160 a coworker. You know. That was completely devastating. Just felt 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:18.320 like my whole world bottomed out. It was so out 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.760 of control and I couldn't control anything, and it was awful. 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.480 I'm a bigger woman, so a huge thing for me 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.560 is weight and self esteem. But you know, when you 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:31.879 throw something like that on top of it, it's even 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:32.840 more devastating. 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:38.200 The feeling of unworthiness frequently comes up for Stacy during 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:42.320 their sessions. Jordan asked Stacy about her family, her childhood, 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.399 and her place within her family. Her answers revealed the 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.320 beginning of wounds that have shaped who's Stacy has become 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:50.440 as an adult. 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:58.040 The repetition of unworthiness was not just in her first marriage. 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:02.160 It was also in the seed of her early attachment 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:07.840 experience with a mother who was not able to respond 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:11.640 to her and really be there in a very present 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:13.800 and securely attached way. 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:19.080 My mom was more cold and cut off. I just 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:20.600 don't think she really knew how to be a mom, 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:22.720 good like. She never got down and played with us. 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:25.919 I would see other people with their moms, you know, 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:28.840 girls going shopping and having hair day and nail days 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.280 and things like that, and my mom just didn't do 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.440 those kinds of things. My dad was more like the mom. 0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:38.920 He grocery shopped, he cooked, he did those kinds of things. 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.200 He was very like sensitive to us. 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.480 As Stacy and her sister Heather grew up, their roles 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:51.080 became defined. Heather needed extra attention. She was unapologetic, headstrong, rebellious. 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:53.119 Stacy was the opposite. 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.480 I was a good child. I didn't cause any problems. 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.639 I didn't do anything bad. I didn't get arrested. I didn't, 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:00.879 you know. It was always just, oh, we don't have 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:03.920 to worry about Stacy. Stacy's good. You know, she doesn't 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:04.960 cause any problems. 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:09.320 Stacy was the easy one. She didn't appear to need much, 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:13.040 so she didn't receive a whole lot. That was her role, 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:16.320 and when she did need extra love and support from 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:18.000 her mother, it wasn't there. 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:24.159 When my first divorce happened, I was distraught about a 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:26.760 week after I moved back home, after my life fell apart. 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.040 She said, all right, it's time for you to pull 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:31.679 yourself up by your bootstraps. I don't want to hear 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:33.920 about this anymore. We're not going to cry about it anymore. 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:37.159 And I remember saying to her, like, oh, thank you, 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:41.440 it's been a whole week. She just was very cut 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:44.719 off like that. I still remember how hurtful that was. 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:48.520 It felt like my feelings didn't matter, or that I 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.080 was just being too dramatic about this thing called divorce, 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:52.720 Like just move on, Stacy, just move on. 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:57.200 Stacy didn't face this uncomfortable reality until it came time 0:22:57.280 --> 0:23:01.080 to grieve her mother. At her funeral, Stacy was at 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:01.879 a loss. 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:05.040 My dad wanted my sister and I to write a eulogy, 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:09.240 and we just couldn't think of things. It was a 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:13.160 really horrible feeling because we knew we were loved, but 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:16.480 my mom didn't do a lot to show us that 0:23:16.560 --> 0:23:17.240 kind of stuff. 0:23:18.200 --> 0:23:23.000 What I'm really just appreciating is this way that you've 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:26.800 had to learn to live from the beginning of being 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:31.280 a kid, where you had to put away or not 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:35.600 pay attention to things that were hard and go on functioning, 0:23:36.800 --> 0:23:40.560 and that that actually was for you as a kid, 0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:46.879 such an incredibly important way you survived. What I'm wanting 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:52.280 to convey is just a real deeper understanding of this 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:58.840 pattern of being in relationship and how understandable it was 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:03.560 for you to be paying attention to the good and 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:09.480 actually how accustomed you have gotten to not paying attention 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:10.240 to what's hard. 0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:13.840 I think it's really helpful to start seeing those connections. 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:18.560 It's painful, but it also makes sense, and that's good 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:20.359 when not much has made sense in this. 0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:29.160 One. Really useful part of therapy is to identify patterns 0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:33.840 and move past repeated behaviors. Jordan Dan explains how this 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:36.440 applies in Stacy's life. 0:24:36.680 --> 0:24:39.720 Her mother had a lack of empathy her first husband 0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:42.400 had a lack of empathy, and Justin had a lack 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:47.440 of empathy and awareness of that pattern. Once the unconscious 0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:52.760 becomes conscious, then we are free to actually move towards 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:56.960 people who have empathy, who are there and who are 0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:00.840 able to give us the support and connection relationship that 0:25:00.880 --> 0:25:04.760 we didn't get before. And now that I'm aware, I 0:25:04.800 --> 0:25:10.040 can make new choices and I can create a new reality, 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:13.400 one in which I have much more power and freedom. 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:15.760 I always say that there's no light at the end 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:19.879 of the tunnel. It's just a new tunnel, and it 0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:23.600 may not be as difficult as the last one. It's 0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:27.119 just always figuring out how to navigate something new, and 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:28.840 so I don't know how I'm going to be one 0:25:28.880 --> 0:25:31.600 hundred percent to be able to do that. If I 0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:33.400 don't deal with some of the stuff that I've dealt with, 0:25:34.600 --> 0:25:36.640 I'm going into a phase where I feel like it's 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:39.960 okay for me to start to feel things for myself 0:25:40.000 --> 0:25:41.960 and to grieve what I lost. 0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:45.720 Stacy is working to hold the pain of her disappointment 0:25:45.760 --> 0:25:49.240 with the pain of Justin's destruction right along with the 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:53.440 positive memories their family shared. But she's not only doing 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:57.159 the work for herself. She's doing it for Tyler, Mikaela 0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:00.360 and the littles. 0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:06.800 Her ability to actually hold that complexity is really crucial 0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:11.760 so that she actually passes on to her children faith 0:26:12.000 --> 0:26:17.119 and belief in the goodness of other people and is 0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:23.280 able to maintain a feeling of relationships are hard and 0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:27.760 they're also good. And if she actually just was in 0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:33.640 this absolute about who Justin is and what relationships are, 0:26:34.480 --> 0:26:37.320