Speaker 1: We're dealing with a person who does not have empathy,
Speaker 1: who does not have morality, and who is able to
Speaker 1: completely shapeshift their behavior for their own selfish motivations and agenda.
Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning. This is Betrayal, Season three, episode six Complexity.
Speaker 2: Justin's sentencing for rape and voyeurism marked an ending, an
Speaker 2: end to Justin's reign of terror, to years of manipulation
Speaker 2: and abuse, and to the Rutherford family worrying about whether
Speaker 2: justice would be served. Justin would be locked up for decades.
Speaker 2: Tyler was finally free of him. I told everyone, I'm
Speaker 2: ready to stop letting this shape our life. Everything's done now.
Speaker 2: I was done with it, but Stacy wasn't done. For
Speaker 2: two years, she carried the weight of guilt, shame, horror,
Speaker 2: and deep sadness and was nurturing wounds of her own.
Speaker 2: During many conversations with Stacy, she expressed sincere interest in
Speaker 2: examining her own grief and emotions surrounding the aftermath. It's
Speaker 2: not something that comes naturally to her. After Justin was sentenced,
Speaker 2: her process was just starting, and to her credit, she
Speaker 2: was completely honest about it.
Speaker 3: When court was finally over after three years, of dealing
Speaker 3: with this stuff. My dad was like, I'm glad it's over.
Speaker 3: We can put this all behind us and you can
Speaker 3: start moving on with your life.
Speaker 2: From the moment Stacy learned the truth about Justin, she
Speaker 2: prioritized her kids and their healing. As you can imagine,
Speaker 2: she was concerned about Tyler and focused her energy on
Speaker 2: his needs, and then there was the support that Mikayla
Speaker 2: and the littles needed as well, so there was little
Speaker 2: to no space for herself. I've gotten to know Tyler
Speaker 2: and michaela over the last few months, and I can
Speaker 2: confidently say that Stacy raised two bright and emotionally intelligent individuals.
Speaker 2: They were old enough to understand that Stacy was putting
Speaker 2: on a brave face and they worried about her.
Speaker 3: When the older kids would ask me how I was doing,
Speaker 3: I would always just say to them, as long as
Speaker 3: you're okay, I'm okay.
Speaker 2: Stacy was strong for her kids, and when it seemed
Speaker 2: like the family was finding their footing the grief she
Speaker 2: had been suppressing weird its ugly head.
Speaker 3: I spent so much time trying to tend to this
Speaker 3: and tend to that and keep this going. And as
Speaker 3: far as my own grief. I feel like I'm just
Speaker 3: now starting to kind of get into it.
Speaker 2: But then there was this to reckon with. How could
Speaker 2: she make sense of her own grief, let alone explain
Speaker 2: it to other people. She was a shamed of her
Speaker 2: thoughts and feelings, So we looked for someone who could
Speaker 2: help Stacy work through everything she was experiencing and maybe,
Speaker 2: in the process, enlighten the rest of us. We introduced
Speaker 2: Stacy to Jordan Dan. She is a licensed psychologist, psychoanalyst, author, teacher,
Speaker 2: and speaker. She is also the author of Somatic Therapy
Speaker 2: for Healing Trauma and the creator of the Relationship Transformation Method.
Speaker 2: Stacy and Jordan allowed us to record their sessions. If
Speaker 2: you've listened to Betrayal season one and two, you heard
Speaker 2: a similar process with Jennifer Fason and Ashley Linton. I
Speaker 2: would like to preface this episode by saying that for
Speaker 2: the next twenty minutes, we're going to explore the many emotions, thoughts,
Speaker 2: and shame Stacy was left to work through as a
Speaker 2: critical step to her healing. I also want to note
Speaker 2: that in our next episode, we're going to focus on
Speaker 2: Tyler and his healing journey. He's going to meet with
Speaker 2: a beloved Hollywood actor who shares a similar story at betrayal.
Speaker 2: We don't believe in zero sum thinking. There was the
Speaker 2: harm Doneto Tyler, but Stacy was also wounded in her
Speaker 2: own way. It's important for us to hold space for
Speaker 2: their individual experiences as humans. Hearing some of the complicated
Speaker 2: feelings survivors of betrayal trauma struggle with can be hard
Speaker 2: to understand if you have not been through it, and
Speaker 2: sure it's easy to judge, compassion requires going deeper. Here
Speaker 2: is Jordan Dan.
Speaker 1: People have difficulty tolerating uncomfortable feelings. It's easier to be
Speaker 1: in absolutes because you don't have to feel and be
Speaker 1: with the messiness.
Speaker 2: Absolutes as in you're either good or evil.
Speaker 1: As Stacy holds the complexity of both the betrayal and
Speaker 1: the horror and the pain, she's really oscillating between the
Speaker 1: reality of this violent behavior, this trauma that her son
Speaker 1: has experienced, and also the relationship she thought she was
Speaker 1: in that she is actually just starting to grieve.
Speaker 2: Stacy was and still is in a lot of pain.
Speaker 2: Calling back to the good times, thinking of happy memories.
Speaker 2: The life they once lived feels like a betrayal, betraying
Speaker 2: her son, betraying herself.
Speaker 3: If I think of the good things, I feel like
Speaker 3: I'm a bad mom. That's a slap in the face
Speaker 3: to my child that he hurt. I think that's what
Speaker 3: hurts me the most is knowing that I was the
Speaker 3: one that brought someone into their life that would do
Speaker 3: something like this to them.
Speaker 2: But Jordan doesn't see it that way.
Speaker 1: Of course, hindsight is twenty twenty. To say I will
Speaker 1: wish I had done something is completely understandable. Children do
Speaker 1: everything in their power to hide what is happening to them.
Speaker 1: Tyler had so much at stake, not only his own
Speaker 1: attachment to justin his own safety, the positive feelings that
Speaker 1: were a part of such an abusive relationship, but also
Speaker 1: his feelings of responsibility towards his mom, towards the whole family.
Speaker 1: Most children, the abuse is actually easier to tolerate than
Speaker 1: the danger and fear of actually saying what's.
Speaker 2: Happening to them.
Speaker 1: And I think it's easiest to understand in the context
Speaker 1: of children with abusive caregivers, to be with the reality
Speaker 1: of a person who they are dependent upon for survival
Speaker 1: and is cruel and violent. Is impossible, and so they
Speaker 1: have to separate those two aspects of the person. And
Speaker 1: often because it's too impossibly painful for a child to
Speaker 1: see their parent as bad, the child ends up seeing
Speaker 1: themselves as bad.
Speaker 2: Stacy examining her own part of where things went wrong
Speaker 2: is a good thing.
Speaker 1: As parents, we do fail, even with our best intentions.
Speaker 1: There are moments where we do not offer the protection
Speaker 1: the care that our children deserve, and that's just a
Speaker 1: part of being human. Her ability to feel that she
Speaker 1: failed in her responsibility of protection of her son is
Speaker 1: actually a really healthy thing.
Speaker 2: And how could Stacy offer that protection when Justin was
Speaker 2: so good at hiding who he really was? Did she
Speaker 2: really know him or the life she was leading at all?
Speaker 3: When you get to where I'm at now, you know,
Speaker 3: you question yourself and you think, was it ever what
Speaker 3: I thought it was? Was anything that I ever felt real?
Speaker 2: Think about the weight of that. If nothing was real?
Speaker 2: The love, the marriage, how are you supposed to reconcile
Speaker 2: all the time you spent those hours, those years, that's
Speaker 2: the substance of your life, your life's story. Is it
Speaker 2: no longer supposed to be of value because of someone
Speaker 2: else's deception?
Speaker 3: I question that all the time, and I don't know why.
Speaker 3: I need to know. There's this part of me that
Speaker 3: just wants to know, like you know what, that part
Speaker 3: of him wasn't sick.
Speaker 2: It's the marriage and relationship dynamic that she misses, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't just live in Stacy's mind. I've seen dozens
Speaker 2: of the Rutherford family photos and videos. They appear as
Speaker 2: a happy and loving family. Stacy and Justin stand close
Speaker 2: together and look like a couple in love. Justin plays
Speaker 2: the part.
Speaker 1: I really have a lot of compassion for that repetitive
Speaker 1: thought that Stacy has. It's really the darkest of possibilities
Speaker 1: to face. Is actually nothing about this person, nothing about
Speaker 1: the memories we shared together are real.
Speaker 2: Stacy has searched for that validation.
Speaker 3: I have had conversations with his best friend where I've
Speaker 3: cried to him and said, do you think he ever
Speaker 3: loved me? And he has told me so many times
Speaker 3: he loved you. I know he did well Justin and
Speaker 3: I got together. I didn't feel like I had to
Speaker 3: do anything for his love. I just felt like he
Speaker 3: just loved me for me, and I loved him for him.
Speaker 3: So then when it slaps you in your face, that
Speaker 3: that's not who you married, and that person didn't love you.
Speaker 3: They just wanted what you had. You were just the
Speaker 3: thruway to what he really wanted. You start to think, like, Wow,
Speaker 3: did you just pretend to love me.
Speaker 2: Jordan's never met Justin, so she isn't going to give
Speaker 2: him any kind of diagnosis, but she did tell Stacy
Speaker 2: building this kind of facade is what sexual predators do.
Speaker 1: I would imagine that Justin was incredibly secretive and your
Speaker 1: depth of trust and your love wouldn't have alerted you
Speaker 1: to anything that might have been dangerous. And this is
Speaker 1: true for you know, all sexual perpetrators. The whole way
Speaker 1: of grooming and creating that relationship is all based on
Speaker 1: bit and switch of care, warmth, love, and then threats
Speaker 1: and cruelty and manipulation. We're dealing with a person who
Speaker 1: does not have empathy, who does not have morality, and
Speaker 1: is able to completely shape shift their behavior for their
Speaker 1: own selfish motivations and agenda.
Speaker 2: Listening to Jordan, my takeaway is that sexual predators like
Speaker 2: Justin are acting at a role. They are pretending to
Speaker 2: love you and care about you, but there is an
Speaker 2: agenda and at this moment I'm grieving for Stacy because
Speaker 2: no one should be treated like that. It undermines your
Speaker 2: belief in everything. Seeing this for what it is and
Speaker 2: digesting this reality, it takes time. Stacy could not be
Speaker 2: a loving and devoted partner one day and completely uncaring
Speaker 2: and detached the next.
Speaker 3: It's really hard to tell people that you miss that
Speaker 3: love because they're such a horrible person. But you can't
Speaker 3: just shut that off like it just doesn't go away.
Speaker 3: And that's what I think has been the hardest, with
Speaker 3: the exception of my children, being hurt, is grieving that
Speaker 3: but also being okay to grieve it.
Speaker 1: It did there something really precious to you. You lost
Speaker 1: all of these good things and the promise of love.
Speaker 3: You know, when I talk about the good times, I
Speaker 3: feel good about it, it makes me miss them.
Speaker 2: Stacy misses what she calls her boring life and yearns
Speaker 2: for a time that she felt love, purpose, and contentment
Speaker 2: from her happy and healthy family unit that she thought
Speaker 2: she had. But what she thought she had and what
Speaker 2: was really going on in the darkness were two different things.
Speaker 2: So what Stacy's left with is trying to reconcile the
Speaker 2: version of Justin she knew, which was the loving husband, doctor,
Speaker 2: and family man, but the person she recently discovered a
Speaker 2: violent predator. Fully integrating those two people is work and
Speaker 2: part of Stacy's journey.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me who this person was to you? Actually,
Speaker 1: just look at your hand and put the good qualities
Speaker 1: of who he was in that hand.
Speaker 3: He was like my answer to everything. He was kind,
Speaker 3: he was smart, he was funny, he loved me, and
Speaker 3: I did never feel like I had to beg for that.
Speaker 1: And then what about what would you put in the
Speaker 1: left hand?
Speaker 2: A monster?
Speaker 1: What do you feel in your body, Stacy as you
Speaker 1: say monster, tightness?
Speaker 3: You know, just like everything tightens up and it's almost
Speaker 3: like it's it's like, it's hard for me to believe
Speaker 3: that that's who I'm speaking of. It's hard for me
Speaker 3: to see that those are the same person.
Speaker 1: I hope you know how normal that is for so
Speaker 1: many people. I mean, for people who experience domestic violence.
Speaker 1: There's strong attachment even though there's very strong violence. You're
Speaker 1: not alone in that complexity of holding both.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: For Stacy, the path to confronting her own grief and
Speaker 2: loss could only begin when she knew Tyler was going
Speaker 2: to be okay.
Speaker 3: I want to see Tyler be everything that he was
Speaker 3: supposed to be, Tyler living a good life, him thriving,
Speaker 3: him not being a statistic, his children not being as statistic.
Speaker 2: Although Jordan has never met Tyler, she has listened to
Speaker 2: the podcast and heard his reasons for wanting to s
Speaker 2: his story.
Speaker 1: What I've really valued that I have heard from Tyler
Speaker 1: is that his why for being a part of this
Speaker 1: podcast is to let other people and young men in particular,
Speaker 1: but to let other survivors know that they're not alone.
Speaker 1: That ability to feel that he can be a protector
Speaker 1: is reparative. The feeling that he can actually give to
Speaker 1: someone else what he didn't receive is such an empowering experience.
Speaker 1: When victims speak up their desire for truth and repair,
Speaker 1: so often cannot happen with the very person that they
Speaker 1: deserve or repair from. We need to hear survivors and
Speaker 1: we actually can offer empathy and we actually are a
Speaker 1: part of repair for that other person.
Speaker 2: Even though Tyler doesn't blame Stacy for what happened to him,
Speaker 2: Jordan says it's possible that anger could eventually bubble to
Speaker 2: the surface.
Speaker 1: That can take a long time in the processing for
Speaker 1: the adult child to finally feel safe enough to be
Speaker 1: angry at their parent. One thing I said to Stacy
Speaker 1: at some point, you need to be ready for that
Speaker 1: to happen. Often those that are implicated and are closest
Speaker 1: to them, like a parent, will not be able to
Speaker 1: tolerate the feelings of shame or vulnerability or fear. Paradoxically,
Speaker 1: that's the only way forward to be able to tolerate
Speaker 1: the shame, admit responsibility, acknowledge the lack of protection.
Speaker 2: But through this work, Stacy feels ready for those hard
Speaker 2: conversations whenever they may come.
Speaker 3: I said, there may be a day that you do
Speaker 3: blame me, you do feel angry. I want you to
Speaker 3: come to me when you feel that, because we're going
Speaker 3: to need to sit with it. We're going to need
Speaker 3: to talk about it.
Speaker 2: So Tyler and Stacy keep an open dialogue. Tyler is
Speaker 2: on a good path and healing in his own way.
Speaker 2: But what does the next chapter look like for Stacy
Speaker 2: beyond just making sure that everyone else is okay.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that you're centering Tyler as the most
Speaker 1: important person to receive justice, but you were also injured deeply, Stacy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm wondering what does justice look like for you?
Speaker 3: All I ever wanted was him to tell me he
Speaker 3: was sorry, and it wouldn't have fit to bething, but
Speaker 3: I just wanted him to say one day to be Stacy,
Speaker 3: you didn't deserve any of that.
Speaker 2: Justin actually did say those exact words to Stacy.
Speaker 1: You were an amazing spouse and didn't deserve any of this.
Speaker 2: But Justin's words lacked sincerity. They felt like they were
Speaker 2: more for the judge than for Stacy. They meant nothing.
Speaker 1: When someone causes hurt to you, what you need is
Speaker 1: an empathetic expression of remorse. When repair really restoes safety,
Speaker 1: it's because the other person has access to empathy. But
Speaker 1: for someone who is actually devoid of empathy, which is
Speaker 1: part of their character disorder, that very thing can never happen.
Speaker 1: Consciousness begins when we realize we can't get from I'm
Speaker 1: another person what we've been trying to get, and freedom
Speaker 1: is when we realize we can go get it somewhere else.
Speaker 2: Jordan challenged Stacy to look inward and ask herself what
Speaker 2: would it look like for her to create a good
Speaker 2: life and become the person she is supposed to be.
Speaker 3: I want to be able to trust people again. I
Speaker 3: want to be able to be in a relationship with
Speaker 3: someone and not think that there's stuff going on that
Speaker 3: I don't know about. I could take you all the
Speaker 3: way back to my first husband with my guilt and
Speaker 3: my shame and my hurt that I've never dealt with that.
Speaker 3: I just went on to another man. Oh it's better. Oh,
Speaker 3: I got a new relationship, but it still followed me
Speaker 3: everywhere because I never dealt with it, and I just
Speaker 3: don't want that for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: This experience with Justin is not the first time you've
Speaker 1: had an experience of two parallel reality is happening simultaneously.
Speaker 1: Does that feel true for you?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, My first husband left me dray years for
Speaker 3: a coworker. You know. That was completely devastating. Just felt
Speaker 3: like my whole world bottomed out. It was so out
Speaker 3: of control and I couldn't control anything, and it was awful.
Speaker 3: I'm a bigger woman, so a huge thing for me
Speaker 3: is weight and self esteem. But you know, when you
Speaker 3: throw something like that on top of it, it's even
Speaker 3: more devastating.
Speaker 2: The feeling of unworthiness frequently comes up for Stacy during
Speaker 2: their sessions. Jordan asked Stacy about her family, her childhood,
Speaker 2: and her place within her family. Her answers revealed the
Speaker 2: beginning of wounds that have shaped who's Stacy has become
Speaker 2: as an adult.
Speaker 1: The repetition of unworthiness was not just in her first marriage.
Speaker 1: It was also in the seed of her early attachment
Speaker 1: experience with a mother who was not able to respond
Speaker 1: to her and really be there in a very present
Speaker 1: and securely attached way.
Speaker 3: My mom was more cold and cut off. I just
Speaker 3: don't think she really knew how to be a mom,
Speaker 3: good like. She never got down and played with us.
Speaker 3: I would see other people with their moms, you know,
Speaker 3: girls going shopping and having hair day and nail days
Speaker 3: and things like that, and my mom just didn't do
Speaker 3: those kinds of things. My dad was more like the mom.
Speaker 3: He grocery shopped, he cooked, he did those kinds of things.
Speaker 3: He was very like sensitive to us.
Speaker 2: As Stacy and her sister Heather grew up, their roles
Speaker 2: became defined. Heather needed extra attention. She was unapologetic, headstrong, rebellious.
Speaker 2: Stacy was the opposite.
Speaker 3: I was a good child. I didn't cause any problems.
Speaker 3: I didn't do anything bad. I didn't get arrested. I didn't,
Speaker 3: you know. It was always just, oh, we don't have
Speaker 3: to worry about Stacy. Stacy's good. You know, she doesn't
Speaker 3: cause any problems.
Speaker 2: Stacy was the easy one. She didn't appear to need much,
Speaker 2: so she didn't receive a whole lot. That was her role,
Speaker 2: and when she did need extra love and support from
Speaker 2: her mother, it wasn't there.
Speaker 3: When my first divorce happened, I was distraught about a
Speaker 3: week after I moved back home, after my life fell apart.
Speaker 3: She said, all right, it's time for you to pull
Speaker 3: yourself up by your bootstraps. I don't want to hear
Speaker 3: about this anymore. We're not going to cry about it anymore.
Speaker 3: And I remember saying to her, like, oh, thank you,
Speaker 3: it's been a whole week. She just was very cut
Speaker 3: off like that. I still remember how hurtful that was.
Speaker 3: It felt like my feelings didn't matter, or that I
Speaker 3: was just being too dramatic about this thing called divorce,
Speaker 3: Like just move on, Stacy, just move on.
Speaker 2: Stacy didn't face this uncomfortable reality until it came time
Speaker 2: to grieve her mother. At her funeral, Stacy was at
Speaker 2: a loss.
Speaker 3: My dad wanted my sister and I to write a eulogy,
Speaker 3: and we just couldn't think of things. It was a
Speaker 3: really horrible feeling because we knew we were loved, but
Speaker 3: my mom didn't do a lot to show us that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: What I'm really just appreciating is this way that you've
Speaker 1: had to learn to live from the beginning of being
Speaker 1: a kid, where you had to put away or not
Speaker 1: pay attention to things that were hard and go on functioning,
Speaker 1: and that that actually was for you as a kid,
Speaker 1: such an incredibly important way you survived. What I'm wanting
Speaker 1: to convey is just a real deeper understanding of this
Speaker 1: pattern of being in relationship and how understandable it was
Speaker 1: for you to be paying attention to the good and
Speaker 1: actually how accustomed you have gotten to not paying attention
Speaker 1: to what's hard.
Speaker 3: I think it's really helpful to start seeing those connections.
Speaker 3: It's painful, but it also makes sense, and that's good
Speaker 3: when not much has made sense in this.
Speaker 2: One. Really useful part of therapy is to identify patterns
Speaker 2: and move past repeated behaviors. Jordan Dan explains how this
Speaker 2: applies in Stacy's life.
Speaker 1: Her mother had a lack of empathy her first husband
Speaker 1: had a lack of empathy, and Justin had a lack
Speaker 1: of empathy and awareness of that pattern. Once the unconscious
Speaker 1: becomes conscious, then we are free to actually move towards
Speaker 1: people who have empathy, who are there and who are
Speaker 1: able to give us the support and connection relationship that
Speaker 1: we didn't get before. And now that I'm aware, I
Speaker 1: can make new choices and I can create a new reality,
Speaker 1: one in which I have much more power and freedom.
Speaker 3: I always say that there's no light at the end
Speaker 3: of the tunnel. It's just a new tunnel, and it
Speaker 3: may not be as difficult as the last one. It's
Speaker 3: just always figuring out how to navigate something new, and
Speaker 3: so I don't know how I'm going to be one
Speaker 3: hundred percent to be able to do that. If I
Speaker 3: don't deal with some of the stuff that I've dealt with,
Speaker 3: I'm going into a phase where I feel like it's
Speaker 3: okay for me to start to feel things for myself
Speaker 3: and to grieve what I lost.
Speaker 2: Stacy is working to hold the pain of her disappointment
Speaker 2: with the pain of Justin's destruction right along with the
Speaker 2: positive memories their family shared. But she's not only doing
Speaker 2: the work for herself. She's doing it for Tyler, Mikaela
Speaker 2: and the littles.
Speaker 1: Her ability to actually hold that complexity is really crucial
Speaker 1: so that she actually passes on to her children faith
Speaker 1: and belief in the goodness of other people and is
Speaker 1: able to maintain a feeling of relationships are hard and
Speaker 1: they're also good. And if she actually just was in
Speaker 1: this absolute about who Justin is and what relationships are,
Speaker 1: that's the inheritance she'd be passing on to her children,
Speaker 1: and that would be a continuation of the trauma she's experienced.
Speaker 2: Jordan says, life is not black and white. It's healthy
Speaker 2: for Stacy to remember good times not pretend they never happened.
Speaker 3: This has been huge for me to see things differently
Speaker 3: and to try to help me start realizing that it's
Speaker 3: okay I don't choose to remember those moments. I don't
Speaker 3: choose to remember a smell if I smell it. For
Speaker 3: me to understand that is going to help me to
Speaker 3: get to a place where I cannot be so shameful
Speaker 3: of the thoughts and be able to move forward and
Speaker 3: be like, you know what, I can feel joy in
Speaker 3: these moments. It's okay for me to remember joy without
Speaker 3: feeling shameful.
Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal, Tyler meets Anthony Edwards,
Speaker 2: the beloved star of Er and Top Gun, shares his
Speaker 2: own story as we explore the stigma and shame that
Speaker 2: prevents men from disclosing sexual abuse.
Speaker 4: I became a good actor because I could go into
Speaker 4: a room and I could assess everything. You get really
Speaker 4: good at playing a room to know how to survive,
Speaker 4: because surviving is the most important thing, because when your
Speaker 4: spirit's broken like that, you feel like you'll die if
Speaker 4: you don't.
Speaker 2: If you're a man who has experienced sexual abuse or assault,
Speaker 2: or you know someone who is seeking support, go to
Speaker 2: one in six dot org. That's the number one I
Speaker 2: n number six dot org. Find a path to a happier,
Speaker 2: healthier future. If you would like to reach out to
Speaker 2: the Betrayal team, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Also, please be
Speaker 2: sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for
Speaker 2: all Betrayal content, news and updates. We're grateful for your support.
Speaker 2: One way to show support is by subscribing to our
Speaker 2: show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and
Speaker 2: review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way, A
Speaker 2: big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is
Speaker 2: a production of Glass Podcasts, a vision of Glass Entertainment
Speaker 2: Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive
Speaker 2: produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced
Speaker 2: by me Andrea Gunning, Written by Kerrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden,
Speaker 2: also produced by Ben Fetterman Associate producer Kristen Melcurie. Our
Speaker 2: iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Special thanks
Speaker 2: to Jordan Dan, Stacy Rutherford, Tyler, and the rest of
Speaker 2: Stacy and Tyler's friends and family. Audio editing and mixing
Speaker 2: by Matt Zalfekio editing support from Nico Aruca. The Trails
Speaker 2: theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by Mybe
Speaker 2: Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.