1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: We're dealing with a person who does not have empathy, 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: who does not have morality, and who is able to 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: completely shapeshift their behavior for their own selfish motivations and agenda. 4 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning. This is Betrayal, Season three, episode six Complexity. 5 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: Justin's sentencing for rape and voyeurism marked an ending, an 6 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: end to Justin's reign of terror, to years of manipulation 7 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 2: and abuse, and to the Rutherford family worrying about whether 8 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 2: justice would be served. Justin would be locked up for decades. 9 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,639 Speaker 2: Tyler was finally free of him. I told everyone, I'm 10 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 2: ready to stop letting this shape our life. Everything's done now. 11 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 2: I was done with it, but Stacy wasn't done. For 12 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 2: two years, she carried the weight of guilt, shame, horror, 13 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: and deep sadness and was nurturing wounds of her own. 14 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 2: During many conversations with Stacy, she expressed sincere interest in 15 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 2: examining her own grief and emotions surrounding the aftermath. It's 16 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: not something that comes naturally to her. After Justin was sentenced, 17 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 2: her process was just starting, and to her credit, she 18 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: was completely honest about it. 19 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,839 Speaker 3: When court was finally over after three years, of dealing 20 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: with this stuff. My dad was like, I'm glad it's over. 21 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 3: We can put this all behind us and you can 22 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 3: start moving on with your life. 23 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: From the moment Stacy learned the truth about Justin, she 24 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: prioritized her kids and their healing. As you can imagine, 25 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 2: she was concerned about Tyler and focused her energy on 26 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: his needs, and then there was the support that Mikayla 27 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: and the littles needed as well, so there was little 28 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 2: to no space for herself. I've gotten to know Tyler 29 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: and michaela over the last few months, and I can 30 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: confidently say that Stacy raised two bright and emotionally intelligent individuals. 31 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: They were old enough to understand that Stacy was putting 32 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 2: on a brave face and they worried about her. 33 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 3: When the older kids would ask me how I was doing, 34 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 3: I would always just say to them, as long as 35 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: you're okay, I'm okay. 36 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: Stacy was strong for her kids, and when it seemed 37 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: like the family was finding their footing the grief she 38 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: had been suppressing weird its ugly head. 39 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 3: I spent so much time trying to tend to this 40 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 3: and tend to that and keep this going. And as 41 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 3: far as my own grief. I feel like I'm just 42 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 3: now starting to kind of get into it. 43 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: But then there was this to reckon with. How could 44 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: she make sense of her own grief, let alone explain 45 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: it to other people. She was a shamed of her 46 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: thoughts and feelings, So we looked for someone who could 47 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: help Stacy work through everything she was experiencing and maybe, 48 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: in the process, enlighten the rest of us. We introduced 49 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: Stacy to Jordan Dan. She is a licensed psychologist, psychoanalyst, author, teacher, 50 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: and speaker. She is also the author of Somatic Therapy 51 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 2: for Healing Trauma and the creator of the Relationship Transformation Method. 52 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 2: Stacy and Jordan allowed us to record their sessions. If 53 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: you've listened to Betrayal season one and two, you heard 54 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 2: a similar process with Jennifer Fason and Ashley Linton. I 55 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 2: would like to preface this episode by saying that for 56 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: the next twenty minutes, we're going to explore the many emotions, thoughts, 57 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: and shame Stacy was left to work through as a 58 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: critical step to her healing. I also want to note 59 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: that in our next episode, we're going to focus on 60 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: Tyler and his healing journey. He's going to meet with 61 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: a beloved Hollywood actor who shares a similar story at betrayal. 62 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: We don't believe in zero sum thinking. There was the 63 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: harm Doneto Tyler, but Stacy was also wounded in her 64 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 2: own way. It's important for us to hold space for 65 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,839 Speaker 2: their individual experiences as humans. Hearing some of the complicated 66 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 2: feelings survivors of betrayal trauma struggle with can be hard 67 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 2: to understand if you have not been through it, and 68 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: sure it's easy to judge, compassion requires going deeper. Here 69 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 2: is Jordan Dan. 70 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: People have difficulty tolerating uncomfortable feelings. It's easier to be 71 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: in absolutes because you don't have to feel and be 72 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: with the messiness. 73 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: Absolutes as in you're either good or evil. 74 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: As Stacy holds the complexity of both the betrayal and 75 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: the horror and the pain, she's really oscillating between the 76 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: reality of this violent behavior, this trauma that her son 77 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: has experienced, and also the relationship she thought she was 78 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: in that she is actually just starting to grieve. 79 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: Stacy was and still is in a lot of pain. 80 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: Calling back to the good times, thinking of happy memories. 81 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: The life they once lived feels like a betrayal, betraying 82 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: her son, betraying herself. 83 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 3: If I think of the good things, I feel like 84 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 3: I'm a bad mom. That's a slap in the face 85 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 3: to my child that he hurt. I think that's what 86 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 3: hurts me the most is knowing that I was the 87 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 3: one that brought someone into their life that would do 88 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 3: something like this to them. 89 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: But Jordan doesn't see it that way. 90 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: Of course, hindsight is twenty twenty. To say I will 91 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: wish I had done something is completely understandable. Children do 92 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: everything in their power to hide what is happening to them. 93 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: Tyler had so much at stake, not only his own 94 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: attachment to justin his own safety, the positive feelings that 95 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: were a part of such an abusive relationship, but also 96 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: his feelings of responsibility towards his mom, towards the whole family. 97 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: Most children, the abuse is actually easier to tolerate than 98 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: the danger and fear of actually saying what's. 99 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: Happening to them. 100 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: And I think it's easiest to understand in the context 101 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: of children with abusive caregivers, to be with the reality 102 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: of a person who they are dependent upon for survival 103 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: and is cruel and violent. Is impossible, and so they 104 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: have to separate those two aspects of the person. And 105 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: often because it's too impossibly painful for a child to 106 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: see their parent as bad, the child ends up seeing 107 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: themselves as bad. 108 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: Stacy examining her own part of where things went wrong 109 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: is a good thing. 110 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: As parents, we do fail, even with our best intentions. 111 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: There are moments where we do not offer the protection 112 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: the care that our children deserve, and that's just a 113 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: part of being human. Her ability to feel that she 114 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: failed in her responsibility of protection of her son is 115 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: actually a really healthy thing. 116 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 2: And how could Stacy offer that protection when Justin was 117 00:07:54,680 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: so good at hiding who he really was? Did she 118 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: really know him or the life she was leading at all? 119 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: When you get to where I'm at now, you know, 120 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 3: you question yourself and you think, was it ever what 121 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:16,119 Speaker 3: I thought it was? Was anything that I ever felt real? 122 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: Think about the weight of that. If nothing was real? 123 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: The love, the marriage, how are you supposed to reconcile 124 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 2: all the time you spent those hours, those years, that's 125 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 2: the substance of your life, your life's story. Is it 126 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: no longer supposed to be of value because of someone 127 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 2: else's deception? 128 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 3: I question that all the time, and I don't know why. 129 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 3: I need to know. There's this part of me that 130 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 3: just wants to know, like you know what, that part 131 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 3: of him wasn't sick. 132 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: It's the marriage and relationship dynamic that she misses, and 133 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 2: it doesn't just live in Stacy's mind. I've seen dozens 134 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 2: of the Rutherford family photos and videos. They appear as 135 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: a happy and loving family. Stacy and Justin stand close 136 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 2: together and look like a couple in love. Justin plays 137 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: the part. 138 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: I really have a lot of compassion for that repetitive 139 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: thought that Stacy has. It's really the darkest of possibilities 140 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: to face. Is actually nothing about this person, nothing about 141 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: the memories we shared together are real. 142 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: Stacy has searched for that validation. 143 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 3: I have had conversations with his best friend where I've 144 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 3: cried to him and said, do you think he ever 145 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 3: loved me? And he has told me so many times 146 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 3: he loved you. I know he did well Justin and 147 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 3: I got together. I didn't feel like I had to 148 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 3: do anything for his love. I just felt like he 149 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 3: just loved me for me, and I loved him for him. 150 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 3: So then when it slaps you in your face, that 151 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 3: that's not who you married, and that person didn't love you. 152 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 3: They just wanted what you had. You were just the 153 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:14,720 Speaker 3: thruway to what he really wanted. You start to think, like, Wow, 154 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 3: did you just pretend to love me. 155 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: Jordan's never met Justin, so she isn't going to give 156 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: him any kind of diagnosis, but she did tell Stacy 157 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 2: building this kind of facade is what sexual predators do. 158 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: I would imagine that Justin was incredibly secretive and your 159 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: depth of trust and your love wouldn't have alerted you 160 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: to anything that might have been dangerous. And this is 161 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: true for you know, all sexual perpetrators. The whole way 162 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: of grooming and creating that relationship is all based on 163 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: bit and switch of care, warmth, love, and then threats 164 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: and cruelty and manipulation. We're dealing with a person who 165 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: does not have empathy, who does not have morality, and 166 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: is able to completely shape shift their behavior for their 167 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: own selfish motivations and agenda. 168 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: Listening to Jordan, my takeaway is that sexual predators like 169 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 2: Justin are acting at a role. They are pretending to 170 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 2: love you and care about you, but there is an 171 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 2: agenda and at this moment I'm grieving for Stacy because 172 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: no one should be treated like that. It undermines your 173 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: belief in everything. Seeing this for what it is and 174 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: digesting this reality, it takes time. Stacy could not be 175 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 2: a loving and devoted partner one day and completely uncaring 176 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 2: and detached the next. 177 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 3: It's really hard to tell people that you miss that 178 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 3: love because they're such a horrible person. But you can't 179 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 3: just shut that off like it just doesn't go away. 180 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 3: And that's what I think has been the hardest, with 181 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 3: the exception of my children, being hurt, is grieving that 182 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 3: but also being okay to grieve it. 183 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: It did there something really precious to you. You lost 184 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: all of these good things and the promise of love. 185 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 3: You know, when I talk about the good times, I 186 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 3: feel good about it, it makes me miss them. 187 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: Stacy misses what she calls her boring life and yearns 188 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: for a time that she felt love, purpose, and contentment 189 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: from her happy and healthy family unit that she thought 190 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 2: she had. But what she thought she had and what 191 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 2: was really going on in the darkness were two different things. 192 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: So what Stacy's left with is trying to reconcile the 193 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: version of Justin she knew, which was the loving husband, doctor, 194 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: and family man, but the person she recently discovered a 195 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 2: violent predator. Fully integrating those two people is work and 196 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: part of Stacy's journey. 197 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: Can you tell me who this person was to you? Actually, 198 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: just look at your hand and put the good qualities 199 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: of who he was in that hand. 200 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 3: He was like my answer to everything. He was kind, 201 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 3: he was smart, he was funny, he loved me, and 202 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 3: I did never feel like I had to beg for that. 203 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: And then what about what would you put in the 204 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: left hand? 205 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: A monster? 206 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: What do you feel in your body, Stacy as you 207 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: say monster, tightness? 208 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 3: You know, just like everything tightens up and it's almost 209 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 3: like it's it's like, it's hard for me to believe 210 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 3: that that's who I'm speaking of. It's hard for me 211 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: to see that those are the same person. 212 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: I hope you know how normal that is for so 213 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: many people. I mean, for people who experience domestic violence. 214 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: There's strong attachment even though there's very strong violence. You're 215 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: not alone in that complexity of holding both. 216 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. 217 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: For Stacy, the path to confronting her own grief and 218 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 2: loss could only begin when she knew Tyler was going 219 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: to be okay. 220 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 3: I want to see Tyler be everything that he was 221 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 3: supposed to be, Tyler living a good life, him thriving, 222 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 3: him not being a statistic, his children not being as statistic. 223 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 2: Although Jordan has never met Tyler, she has listened to 224 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 2: the podcast and heard his reasons for wanting to s 225 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: his story. 226 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: What I've really valued that I have heard from Tyler 227 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: is that his why for being a part of this 228 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: podcast is to let other people and young men in particular, 229 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: but to let other survivors know that they're not alone. 230 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: That ability to feel that he can be a protector 231 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: is reparative. The feeling that he can actually give to 232 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: someone else what he didn't receive is such an empowering experience. 233 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: When victims speak up their desire for truth and repair, 234 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: so often cannot happen with the very person that they 235 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: deserve or repair from. We need to hear survivors and 236 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: we actually can offer empathy and we actually are a 237 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: part of repair for that other person. 238 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: Even though Tyler doesn't blame Stacy for what happened to him, 239 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 2: Jordan says it's possible that anger could eventually bubble to 240 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: the surface. 241 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: That can take a long time in the processing for 242 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: the adult child to finally feel safe enough to be 243 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: angry at their parent. One thing I said to Stacy 244 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: at some point, you need to be ready for that 245 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: to happen. Often those that are implicated and are closest 246 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: to them, like a parent, will not be able to 247 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: tolerate the feelings of shame or vulnerability or fear. Paradoxically, 248 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: that's the only way forward to be able to tolerate 249 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: the shame, admit responsibility, acknowledge the lack of protection. 250 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: But through this work, Stacy feels ready for those hard 251 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: conversations whenever they may come. 252 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 3: I said, there may be a day that you do 253 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: blame me, you do feel angry. I want you to 254 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 3: come to me when you feel that, because we're going 255 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 3: to need to sit with it. We're going to need 256 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 3: to talk about it. 257 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 2: So Tyler and Stacy keep an open dialogue. Tyler is 258 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 2: on a good path and healing in his own way. 259 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: But what does the next chapter look like for Stacy 260 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 2: beyond just making sure that everyone else is okay. 261 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that you're centering Tyler as the most 262 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: important person to receive justice, but you were also injured deeply, Stacy. Yeah, 263 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: so I'm wondering what does justice look like for you? 264 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 3: All I ever wanted was him to tell me he 265 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 3: was sorry, and it wouldn't have fit to bething, but 266 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 3: I just wanted him to say one day to be Stacy, 267 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 3: you didn't deserve any of that. 268 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 2: Justin actually did say those exact words to Stacy. 269 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: You were an amazing spouse and didn't deserve any of this. 270 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 2: But Justin's words lacked sincerity. They felt like they were 271 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: more for the judge than for Stacy. They meant nothing. 272 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: When someone causes hurt to you, what you need is 273 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: an empathetic expression of remorse. When repair really restoes safety, 274 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: it's because the other person has access to empathy. But 275 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: for someone who is actually devoid of empathy, which is 276 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 1: part of their character disorder, that very thing can never happen. 277 00:18:55,040 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: Consciousness begins when we realize we can't get from I'm 278 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: another person what we've been trying to get, and freedom 279 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: is when we realize we can go get it somewhere else. 280 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: Jordan challenged Stacy to look inward and ask herself what 281 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: would it look like for her to create a good 282 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 2: life and become the person she is supposed to be. 283 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 3: I want to be able to trust people again. I 284 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 3: want to be able to be in a relationship with 285 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: someone and not think that there's stuff going on that 286 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 3: I don't know about. I could take you all the 287 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 3: way back to my first husband with my guilt and 288 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 3: my shame and my hurt that I've never dealt with that. 289 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 3: I just went on to another man. Oh it's better. Oh, 290 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 3: I got a new relationship, but it still followed me 291 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 3: everywhere because I never dealt with it, and I just 292 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 3: don't want that for the rest of my life. 293 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: This experience with Justin is not the first time you've 294 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: had an experience of two parallel reality is happening simultaneously. 295 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: Does that feel true for you? 296 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, My first husband left me dray years for 297 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 3: a coworker. You know. That was completely devastating. Just felt 298 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 3: like my whole world bottomed out. It was so out 299 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 3: of control and I couldn't control anything, and it was awful. 300 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 3: I'm a bigger woman, so a huge thing for me 301 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 3: is weight and self esteem. But you know, when you 302 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 3: throw something like that on top of it, it's even 303 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 3: more devastating. 304 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: The feeling of unworthiness frequently comes up for Stacy during 305 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: their sessions. Jordan asked Stacy about her family, her childhood, 306 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 2: and her place within her family. Her answers revealed the 307 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 2: beginning of wounds that have shaped who's Stacy has become 308 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 2: as an adult. 309 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: The repetition of unworthiness was not just in her first marriage. 310 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: It was also in the seed of her early attachment 311 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: experience with a mother who was not able to respond 312 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,640 Speaker 1: to her and really be there in a very present 313 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: and securely attached way. 314 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 3: My mom was more cold and cut off. I just 315 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 3: don't think she really knew how to be a mom, 316 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 3: good like. She never got down and played with us. 317 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 3: I would see other people with their moms, you know, 318 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 3: girls going shopping and having hair day and nail days 319 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 3: and things like that, and my mom just didn't do 320 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 3: those kinds of things. My dad was more like the mom. 321 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 3: He grocery shopped, he cooked, he did those kinds of things. 322 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 3: He was very like sensitive to us. 323 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: As Stacy and her sister Heather grew up, their roles 324 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: became defined. Heather needed extra attention. She was unapologetic, headstrong, rebellious. 325 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 2: Stacy was the opposite. 326 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 3: I was a good child. I didn't cause any problems. 327 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 3: I didn't do anything bad. I didn't get arrested. I didn't, 328 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 3: you know. It was always just, oh, we don't have 329 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 3: to worry about Stacy. Stacy's good. You know, she doesn't 330 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 3: cause any problems. 331 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: Stacy was the easy one. She didn't appear to need much, 332 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: so she didn't receive a whole lot. That was her role, 333 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: and when she did need extra love and support from 334 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: her mother, it wasn't there. 335 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 3: When my first divorce happened, I was distraught about a 336 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 3: week after I moved back home, after my life fell apart. 337 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: She said, all right, it's time for you to pull 338 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 3: yourself up by your bootstraps. I don't want to hear 339 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 3: about this anymore. We're not going to cry about it anymore. 340 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 3: And I remember saying to her, like, oh, thank you, 341 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 3: it's been a whole week. She just was very cut 342 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,719 Speaker 3: off like that. I still remember how hurtful that was. 343 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 3: It felt like my feelings didn't matter, or that I 344 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 3: was just being too dramatic about this thing called divorce, 345 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 3: Like just move on, Stacy, just move on. 346 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: Stacy didn't face this uncomfortable reality until it came time 347 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: to grieve her mother. At her funeral, Stacy was at 348 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 2: a loss. 349 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 3: My dad wanted my sister and I to write a eulogy, 350 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 3: and we just couldn't think of things. It was a 351 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 3: really horrible feeling because we knew we were loved, but 352 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 3: my mom didn't do a lot to show us that 353 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 3: kind of stuff. 354 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: What I'm really just appreciating is this way that you've 355 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: had to learn to live from the beginning of being 356 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: a kid, where you had to put away or not 357 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: pay attention to things that were hard and go on functioning, 358 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: and that that actually was for you as a kid, 359 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: such an incredibly important way you survived. What I'm wanting 360 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: to convey is just a real deeper understanding of this 361 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: pattern of being in relationship and how understandable it was 362 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: for you to be paying attention to the good and 363 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: actually how accustomed you have gotten to not paying attention 364 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: to what's hard. 365 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 3: I think it's really helpful to start seeing those connections. 366 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 3: It's painful, but it also makes sense, and that's good 367 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 3: when not much has made sense in this. 368 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 2: One. Really useful part of therapy is to identify patterns 369 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: and move past repeated behaviors. Jordan Dan explains how this 370 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,440 Speaker 2: applies in Stacy's life. 371 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: Her mother had a lack of empathy her first husband 372 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: had a lack of empathy, and Justin had a lack 373 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: of empathy and awareness of that pattern. Once the unconscious 374 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: becomes conscious, then we are free to actually move towards 375 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: people who have empathy, who are there and who are 376 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: able to give us the support and connection relationship that 377 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: we didn't get before. And now that I'm aware, I 378 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: can make new choices and I can create a new reality, 379 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: one in which I have much more power and freedom. 380 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 3: I always say that there's no light at the end 381 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 3: of the tunnel. It's just a new tunnel, and it 382 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 3: may not be as difficult as the last one. It's 383 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 3: just always figuring out how to navigate something new, and 384 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 3: so I don't know how I'm going to be one 385 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 3: hundred percent to be able to do that. If I 386 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 3: don't deal with some of the stuff that I've dealt with, 387 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 3: I'm going into a phase where I feel like it's 388 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 3: okay for me to start to feel things for myself 389 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 3: and to grieve what I lost. 390 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: Stacy is working to hold the pain of her disappointment 391 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 2: with the pain of Justin's destruction right along with the 392 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 2: positive memories their family shared. But she's not only doing 393 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 2: the work for herself. She's doing it for Tyler, Mikaela 394 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 2: and the littles. 395 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: Her ability to actually hold that complexity is really crucial 396 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: so that she actually passes on to her children faith 397 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: and belief in the goodness of other people and is 398 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: able to maintain a feeling of relationships are hard and 399 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: they're also good. And if she actually just was in 400 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: this absolute about who Justin is and what relationships are, 401 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: that's the inheritance she'd be passing on to her children, 402 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: and that would be a continuation of the trauma she's experienced. 403 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 2: Jordan says, life is not black and white. It's healthy 404 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: for Stacy to remember good times not pretend they never happened. 405 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 3: This has been huge for me to see things differently 406 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 3: and to try to help me start realizing that it's 407 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 3: okay I don't choose to remember those moments. I don't 408 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 3: choose to remember a smell if I smell it. For 409 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 3: me to understand that is going to help me to 410 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 3: get to a place where I cannot be so shameful 411 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 3: of the thoughts and be able to move forward and 412 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 3: be like, you know what, I can feel joy in 413 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 3: these moments. It's okay for me to remember joy without 414 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 3: feeling shameful. 415 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal, Tyler meets Anthony Edwards, 416 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 2: the beloved star of Er and Top Gun, shares his 417 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 2: own story as we explore the stigma and shame that 418 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 2: prevents men from disclosing sexual abuse. 419 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 4: I became a good actor because I could go into 420 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 4: a room and I could assess everything. You get really 421 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 4: good at playing a room to know how to survive, 422 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 4: because surviving is the most important thing, because when your 423 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 4: spirit's broken like that, you feel like you'll die if 424 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 4: you don't. 425 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 2: If you're a man who has experienced sexual abuse or assault, 426 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 2: or you know someone who is seeking support, go to 427 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 2: one in six dot org. That's the number one I 428 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 2: n number six dot org. Find a path to a happier, 429 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 2: healthier future. If you would like to reach out to 430 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: the Betrayal team, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. 431 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 2: That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Also, please be 432 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 2: sure to follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for 433 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 2: all Betrayal content, news and updates. We're grateful for your support. 434 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 2: One way to show support is by subscribing to our 435 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 2: show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and 436 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way, A 437 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is 438 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 2: a production of Glass Podcasts, a vision of Glass Entertainment 439 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive 440 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 2: produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced 441 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 2: by me Andrea Gunning, Written by Kerrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden, 442 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 2: also produced by Ben Fetterman Associate producer Kristen Melcurie. Our 443 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 2: iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Special thanks 444 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 2: to Jordan Dan, Stacy Rutherford, Tyler, and the rest of 445 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 2: Stacy and Tyler's friends and family. Audio editing and mixing 446 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 2: by Matt Zalfekio editing support from Nico Aruca. The Trails 447 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 2: theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by Mybe 448 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, 449 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.