1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:22,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Imagine there's a place in our world where the 2 00:00:22,716 --> 00:00:28,836 Speaker 1: known things go. A corridor of the mind, its walls 3 00:00:28,836 --> 00:00:33,316 Speaker 1: lined with shelves, stopped with proof, and cluttered with clues. 4 00:00:36,156 --> 00:00:39,396 Speaker 1: Here over, on top of this filing cabinet, a wooden 5 00:00:39,436 --> 00:00:48,636 Speaker 1: box with a brass nameplate, w M M damn. It's 6 00:00:48,676 --> 00:00:55,396 Speaker 1: locked this place. This vault stores the facts that matter, 7 00:00:55,876 --> 00:01:00,636 Speaker 1: and matters of fact, all that stands between reasonable doubt 8 00:01:00,996 --> 00:01:06,116 Speaker 1: and the chaos of uncertainty. It lies in a time 9 00:01:06,196 --> 00:01:10,396 Speaker 1: between now and then. The sign on the door reads 10 00:01:11,036 --> 00:01:16,876 Speaker 1: the last archive. Wind your watch back a century, step 11 00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:27,116 Speaker 1: across the threshold and into a lecture hall. The class 12 00:01:27,116 --> 00:01:30,316 Speaker 1: met twice a week at American University, two blocks from 13 00:01:30,316 --> 00:01:32,956 Speaker 1: the White House, in the spring of nineteen twenty two. 14 00:01:33,516 --> 00:01:37,236 Speaker 1: In the evening, all the students were lawyers. There were 15 00:01:37,276 --> 00:01:40,876 Speaker 1: young men. The professor, only twenty eight, was hardly older 16 00:01:40,876 --> 00:01:45,796 Speaker 1: than his students, William Moulton Marston. But Professor Marston had 17 00:01:45,796 --> 00:01:49,316 Speaker 1: a BA and a JD and a PhD. He was 18 00:01:49,356 --> 00:01:54,716 Speaker 1: an intellectual rogue, handsome, dangerously charming, almost as charming as 19 00:01:54,716 --> 00:01:58,676 Speaker 1: he was ambitious. He was trying to establish a new discipline, 20 00:01:58,996 --> 00:02:02,516 Speaker 1: the science of testimony. The science of how you know 21 00:02:02,636 --> 00:02:05,356 Speaker 1: whether someone is telling the truth. He liked to teach 22 00:02:05,396 --> 00:02:08,596 Speaker 1: by way of experiment, and on this particular evening he 23 00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:12,596 Speaker 1: was conduct getting experiment on what eyewitnesses can actually notice 24 00:02:13,116 --> 00:02:18,996 Speaker 1: and remember. It seems to be a regrettable fact that 25 00:02:19,116 --> 00:02:23,956 Speaker 1: little systematic psychological experimentation is being carried on in the 26 00:02:23,996 --> 00:02:31,516 Speaker 1: field of testimony. Much valuable material is being produced by psychiatrists, sociologists, 27 00:02:31,556 --> 00:02:34,836 Speaker 1: and criminologists from time to time, but the subjects of 28 00:02:34,956 --> 00:02:41,316 Speaker 1: such studies either psychopathic or criminal variants from the criminal 29 00:02:41,476 --> 00:02:49,476 Speaker 1: variants enter yes. In the middle of Marston's lecture, a 30 00:02:49,596 --> 00:02:53,556 Speaker 1: young man entered the hall. He wore leather gloves. In 31 00:02:53,556 --> 00:02:56,956 Speaker 1: his right hand, he carried an envelope. Tucked under his 32 00:02:57,036 --> 00:03:02,396 Speaker 1: left arm were three books, one red, one green, one blue. 33 00:03:02,916 --> 00:03:05,636 Speaker 1: I've read Marston's lecture, and I've read his report on 34 00:03:05,676 --> 00:03:11,996 Speaker 1: this experiment. What happened next, I like to imagine. Sorry 35 00:03:12,036 --> 00:03:16,196 Speaker 1: to interrupts, sir, but here the messenger handed the professor 36 00:03:16,276 --> 00:03:20,836 Speaker 1: the envelope. Professor Marston opened the envelope, pulled out a 37 00:03:20,916 --> 00:03:26,156 Speaker 1: yellow paper, and read its contents. While Professor Marston was 38 00:03:26,236 --> 00:03:30,796 Speaker 1: reading the message, the messenger slid a second envelope into 39 00:03:30,836 --> 00:03:36,436 Speaker 1: Professor Marston's pocket, and then the messenger, using only his 40 00:03:36,556 --> 00:03:39,556 Speaker 1: right hand, pulled out of his own pocket a long, 41 00:03:39,836 --> 00:03:44,676 Speaker 1: green handled knife. The messenger opened a knife and began 42 00:03:44,756 --> 00:03:48,596 Speaker 1: scraping his gloved left thumb with the edge of the blade, 43 00:03:49,276 --> 00:03:54,596 Speaker 1: sharpening it on the leather. Yeah, that'll do anyway, Yes, sir, 44 00:04:05,316 --> 00:04:15,276 Speaker 1: stood as that man was an actor, an experiment. Take 45 00:04:15,316 --> 00:04:18,516 Speaker 1: out a fresh sheet of notepaper, this very instant, and 46 00:04:18,556 --> 00:04:22,396 Speaker 1: write down every fact about what just occurred, every last detail, 47 00:04:22,516 --> 00:04:29,436 Speaker 1: no matter how seemingly insignificant. You have one minute, my 48 00:04:29,596 --> 00:04:33,316 Speaker 1: dear listeners. These people are actors, and this too has 49 00:04:33,396 --> 00:04:37,756 Speaker 1: been asharade an experiment. Please, now, this very instant. Tell 50 00:04:37,796 --> 00:04:46,676 Speaker 1: me what you just heard. Is that all you can remember? 51 00:04:46,916 --> 00:04:50,516 Speaker 1: All the details? Let me see if you left anything out? 52 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:55,476 Speaker 1: What university are we at, in what year? What time 53 00:04:55,516 --> 00:04:57,916 Speaker 1: of days it? What part of the country was the 54 00:04:58,076 --> 00:05:04,316 Speaker 1: messenger from? What color was his knife? Time? Put down 55 00:05:04,356 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 1: your pencils, pass your paper to the front of the room. 56 00:05:11,076 --> 00:05:15,516 Speaker 1: All right. Marriston had identified exactly one hundred and forty 57 00:05:15,516 --> 00:05:18,916 Speaker 1: seven facts that the students could have observed about the messenger, 58 00:05:19,636 --> 00:05:22,316 Speaker 1: the number and the color of the books, the fact 59 00:05:22,396 --> 00:05:24,796 Speaker 1: that he held them under one arm is left. The 60 00:05:24,876 --> 00:05:28,396 Speaker 1: color of the paper in the first envelope yellow. And 61 00:05:28,476 --> 00:05:33,156 Speaker 1: then Professor Morriston collected his student's responses and tallied the results. 62 00:05:35,036 --> 00:05:39,916 Speaker 1: Out of one hundred and forty seven observable facts, the 63 00:05:40,036 --> 00:05:46,356 Speaker 1: class on average noticed only thirty six, and since two 64 00:05:46,396 --> 00:05:49,916 Speaker 1: of these facts were errors, I am only counting thirty four, 65 00:05:51,356 --> 00:05:54,356 Speaker 1: thirty four out of one hundred and forty seven facts, 66 00:05:54,996 --> 00:05:59,436 Speaker 1: for a testimonial accuracy rate of precisely twenty three percent, 67 00:05:59,676 --> 00:06:05,076 Speaker 1: and not a single one of you noticed the knife. 68 00:06:07,836 --> 00:06:11,276 Speaker 1: This is the last archive of the show about how 69 00:06:11,316 --> 00:06:14,196 Speaker 1: we know what we know, how we used to know things, 70 00:06:14,676 --> 00:06:17,116 Speaker 1: and why it seems sometimes lately as if we don't 71 00:06:17,116 --> 00:06:21,876 Speaker 1: know anything at all. I'm Jill Lapour. This season we're 72 00:06:21,876 --> 00:06:26,316 Speaker 1: trying to solve a crime. Who killed Truth? This episode, 73 00:06:26,356 --> 00:06:28,516 Speaker 1: we're looking at a trial set in motion by the 74 00:06:28,596 --> 00:06:32,876 Speaker 1: experiment Professor Marston conducted that night in nineteen twenty two, 75 00:06:33,636 --> 00:06:37,836 Speaker 1: an experiment that involved a machine. A machine you've probably 76 00:06:37,836 --> 00:06:40,916 Speaker 1: heard about. Did you ever hear of a lie detector? 77 00:06:41,316 --> 00:06:45,076 Speaker 1: The lie detector? You probably know it from the movies. 78 00:06:45,996 --> 00:06:48,196 Speaker 1: You may lie to us, you can't lie to that. 79 00:06:49,316 --> 00:06:52,956 Speaker 1: The machine itself. The polygraph machine was invented by someone else, 80 00:06:53,236 --> 00:06:56,396 Speaker 1: but the test, the blood pressure test, that had been 81 00:06:56,396 --> 00:06:59,676 Speaker 1: invented by William Molton Marston, that professor who liked to 82 00:06:59,676 --> 00:07:06,956 Speaker 1: experiment on his students. Okay, most of us are very 83 00:07:06,956 --> 00:07:08,996 Speaker 1: good at telling whether or not other people are lying. 84 00:07:09,676 --> 00:07:14,636 Speaker 1: Marston thought a machine could tell better. See these needles. 85 00:07:16,756 --> 00:07:21,756 Speaker 1: You see the even little line this needle's making. When 86 00:07:21,796 --> 00:07:25,476 Speaker 1: you tell a lie, you're post quickens, and this needle 87 00:07:25,636 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 1: shows it on the chop. We take this sort of thing, 88 00:07:28,116 --> 00:07:31,196 Speaker 1: this sort of movie scene for granted. There seems like 89 00:07:31,196 --> 00:07:34,316 Speaker 1: it's all over the place, every police procedural, every episode 90 00:07:34,356 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 1: of law and order. But when you're conducting a historical investigation, 91 00:07:38,116 --> 00:07:40,476 Speaker 1: you're supposed to pause and think about the things you 92 00:07:40,516 --> 00:07:43,356 Speaker 1: take for granted, Think about them until you don't take 93 00:07:43,396 --> 00:07:46,396 Speaker 1: them for granted anymore, until they get weird. The way, 94 00:07:46,436 --> 00:07:49,716 Speaker 1: if you think about a word like pumpernickele, after a while, 95 00:07:50,196 --> 00:07:58,156 Speaker 1: it starts to sound really strange. Pumpernickele, pumpernickele, polygraph, polygraph. 96 00:07:58,396 --> 00:08:01,236 Speaker 1: And once things get strange, you can ask questions about 97 00:08:01,276 --> 00:08:03,916 Speaker 1: them because you can see them more clearly. So you 98 00:08:03,916 --> 00:08:08,156 Speaker 1: can ask why trust a blood pressure test more than 99 00:08:08,196 --> 00:08:13,036 Speaker 1: your own judgment. It used to be that only God 100 00:08:13,076 --> 00:08:17,396 Speaker 1: could decide the truth of testimony. For centuries, murder trials 101 00:08:17,476 --> 00:08:20,796 Speaker 1: involved the courts trying to get God to speak through 102 00:08:20,836 --> 00:08:24,236 Speaker 1: the dead body. If it bled when you touched it, 103 00:08:24,476 --> 00:08:28,756 Speaker 1: you were guilty. Even after trial by jury replaced this 104 00:08:28,796 --> 00:08:33,276 Speaker 1: sort of thing, Trial by ordeal, This idea that the 105 00:08:33,396 --> 00:08:38,916 Speaker 1: dead speak lingered in its way. The Lae detector is 106 00:08:38,916 --> 00:08:42,236 Speaker 1: a kind of ordeal, except it doesn't look for guilt 107 00:08:42,556 --> 00:08:45,276 Speaker 1: in the blood of the corpse. It looks for guilt 108 00:08:45,596 --> 00:08:49,476 Speaker 1: in the blood of the accused. Marston described his method 109 00:08:49,636 --> 00:08:54,156 Speaker 1: in his undergraduate thesis. The special problem suggested to me 110 00:08:54,236 --> 00:08:57,996 Speaker 1: in the Harvard Psychological Laboratory was an investigation in the 111 00:08:58,076 --> 00:09:00,836 Speaker 1: changes in blood pressure resulting from an effort to hide 112 00:09:00,836 --> 00:09:06,436 Speaker 1: the truth. Marston kept refining his truthscope all through graduate 113 00:09:06,476 --> 00:09:09,596 Speaker 1: school and law school, and during the First World War 114 00:09:10,156 --> 00:09:12,876 Speaker 1: when he did experiments on soldiers and prisoners of war. 115 00:09:13,636 --> 00:09:16,476 Speaker 1: He was seeking fame and fortune, for sure, but he 116 00:09:16,556 --> 00:09:19,956 Speaker 1: also had a noble motive. When police couldn't get criminals 117 00:09:19,996 --> 00:09:23,436 Speaker 1: to confess, they pretty often beat them up. They gave 118 00:09:23,476 --> 00:09:26,716 Speaker 1: them what was called the third degree. Marston had the 119 00:09:26,756 --> 00:09:29,756 Speaker 1: idea that if police had a lie detector, they'd stop 120 00:09:29,836 --> 00:09:33,076 Speaker 1: beating people up. In nineteen twenty two, at the same time, 121 00:09:33,076 --> 00:09:36,636 Speaker 1: as he was teaching an American university in Washington, Marston 122 00:09:36,676 --> 00:09:39,876 Speaker 1: decided that the time had come for a real world test. 123 00:09:40,756 --> 00:09:43,916 Speaker 1: He wanted to prove that his method worked. To do that, 124 00:09:44,236 --> 00:09:46,396 Speaker 1: he wanted to get the results of a lie detector 125 00:09:46,436 --> 00:09:50,356 Speaker 1: admitted as evidence in a criminal trial. He needed a 126 00:09:50,396 --> 00:09:52,756 Speaker 1: client desperate enough to hand his fate over to an 127 00:09:52,836 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 1: untried experiment. Inspector Clifford al Grad record of an interrogation 128 00:09:57,876 --> 00:10:02,876 Speaker 1: in August twenty second, ninety what is your name? James 129 00:10:02,916 --> 00:10:07,316 Speaker 1: Alfonso Frye. James Alfonso Frye would soon become the subject 130 00:10:07,356 --> 00:10:11,236 Speaker 1: of another one of Professor Marston's experiments. Fry was young 131 00:10:11,396 --> 00:10:14,356 Speaker 1: and unmarried. He was lean and handsome, with short hair 132 00:10:14,476 --> 00:10:17,276 Speaker 1: and big ears. He'd fought in the War. He worked 133 00:10:17,276 --> 00:10:20,076 Speaker 1: in a dentist's office, and he was broke. As he 134 00:10:20,156 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 1: later wrote, I was a young man of twenty one 135 00:10:22,356 --> 00:10:25,676 Speaker 1: years and penniless. The courts had to assign me a lawyer. 136 00:10:26,636 --> 00:10:29,396 Speaker 1: Police had charged James Alfonso fry with the murder of 137 00:10:29,476 --> 00:10:32,636 Speaker 1: doctor Robert Wade Brown, The President of the National Life 138 00:10:32,636 --> 00:10:38,436 Speaker 1: Insurance Company and the richest black man in Washington. Here's 139 00:10:38,436 --> 00:10:41,636 Speaker 1: what we know about the night Doctor Brown died. It 140 00:10:41,756 --> 00:10:45,196 Speaker 1: was a Saturday in November nineteen twenty. Brown was hosting 141 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:48,756 Speaker 1: a party at his house celebrating his alma mater's football 142 00:10:48,876 --> 00:10:55,716 Speaker 1: victory when someone knocked at his front door. Brown went 143 00:10:55,756 --> 00:11:01,596 Speaker 1: to answer and was shot dead on his very doorstep. 144 00:11:03,756 --> 00:11:13,436 Speaker 1: The murderer, some people said, escaped down an alley. Browne's 145 00:11:13,476 --> 00:11:17,516 Speaker 1: grieving family and his company together offered a thousand dollars reward, 146 00:11:17,916 --> 00:11:21,396 Speaker 1: but the investigation had come up short. Although a lot 147 00:11:21,436 --> 00:11:24,316 Speaker 1: of Brown's guests witnessed the murder or at least glimpsed 148 00:11:24,356 --> 00:11:27,756 Speaker 1: the murderer, it all happened so suddenly that they could 149 00:11:27,796 --> 00:11:31,956 Speaker 1: remember hardly any details. Months later, the police were still 150 00:11:31,956 --> 00:11:34,716 Speaker 1: searching for Doctor Brown's killer when they arrested a young 151 00:11:34,756 --> 00:11:38,436 Speaker 1: black man on an unrelated robbery charge. It was Fry. 152 00:11:39,356 --> 00:11:41,196 Speaker 1: He and a cousin had robbed a guy of a wallet, 153 00:11:41,236 --> 00:11:44,956 Speaker 1: a ring, and a watch, a petty theft. During his 154 00:11:44,996 --> 00:11:47,676 Speaker 1: trial for robbery, one witness, a man who worked at 155 00:11:47,716 --> 00:11:50,436 Speaker 1: the same dentist's office as for I, told the police 156 00:11:50,436 --> 00:11:53,156 Speaker 1: that Fry had confessed to him that he Fry, had 157 00:11:53,276 --> 00:11:56,676 Speaker 1: killed doctor Robert Brown. And it turned out that Fry 158 00:11:56,716 --> 00:11:58,836 Speaker 1: had in fact been at doctor Brown's house on the 159 00:11:58,916 --> 00:12:00,996 Speaker 1: night of the murder, and that he had brought a gun, 160 00:12:01,516 --> 00:12:04,916 Speaker 1: And when the police questioned Fry, he confessed to the murder. 161 00:12:05,636 --> 00:12:08,276 Speaker 1: The police had to get that confession on record, so 162 00:12:08,316 --> 00:12:10,876 Speaker 1: they brought him into an interrogation room where they questioned 163 00:12:10,956 --> 00:12:14,956 Speaker 1: him all over again. They wouldn't have made an audio recording, 164 00:12:15,156 --> 00:12:18,116 Speaker 1: this is nineteen twenty one, a little too early for that, 165 00:12:18,756 --> 00:12:21,036 Speaker 1: but they made a transcript, and here in the last 166 00:12:21,116 --> 00:12:24,796 Speaker 1: archive we've got a copy. You have told my colleague 167 00:12:24,796 --> 00:12:26,716 Speaker 1: that you killed doctor Brown. Aw are you willing to 168 00:12:26,756 --> 00:12:29,396 Speaker 1: tell me about it? Yes, sir. When I first went 169 00:12:29,436 --> 00:12:31,836 Speaker 1: to doctor Brown's I had a dollar, and I asked 170 00:12:31,956 --> 00:12:34,036 Speaker 1: him to give me a prescription because I had been 171 00:12:34,036 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 1: told I had gone a rha real bad. He then 172 00:12:36,516 --> 00:12:38,396 Speaker 1: said he couldn't do anything for me for a dollar. 173 00:12:38,516 --> 00:12:41,116 Speaker 1: He said, don't you son of a bitches come around 174 00:12:41,156 --> 00:12:45,316 Speaker 1: here with only one dollar? Fry said, then he'd left 175 00:12:45,356 --> 00:12:47,396 Speaker 1: and gone to try to raise money for the medicine 176 00:12:47,436 --> 00:12:51,116 Speaker 1: by pawning his pistol, a forty five automatic. No luck, 177 00:12:51,556 --> 00:12:53,756 Speaker 1: so he said he went back to Brown's with his 178 00:12:53,796 --> 00:12:56,156 Speaker 1: loaded gun tucked into the belt of his pants, but 179 00:12:56,236 --> 00:12:59,196 Speaker 1: when he got there, he said, Brown sent him away again, 180 00:12:59,236 --> 00:13:01,196 Speaker 1: told him if he didn't have the money, to get lost, 181 00:13:01,316 --> 00:13:03,356 Speaker 1: and he struck me over the left eye. Did he 182 00:13:03,396 --> 00:13:06,396 Speaker 1: have any weapon in his hand, No, sir. Then I 183 00:13:06,436 --> 00:13:08,436 Speaker 1: took the butt of the gun and hit him, and 184 00:13:08,516 --> 00:13:11,196 Speaker 1: that didn't do good, because he struck me again. I 185 00:13:11,316 --> 00:13:13,316 Speaker 1: tried to run to the door, and he grabbed me again, 186 00:13:13,836 --> 00:13:15,556 Speaker 1: and I told him to put his hands up, and 187 00:13:15,596 --> 00:13:17,676 Speaker 1: he kept on hitting me, hitting me on the head, 188 00:13:18,196 --> 00:13:24,556 Speaker 1: and then the struggle. I think my gun was fired there, 189 00:13:24,596 --> 00:13:29,716 Speaker 1: just there, with that slight cautious admission, I think my 190 00:13:29,796 --> 00:13:35,436 Speaker 1: gun was fired. James Fry confessed to killing Brown. But Fry, 191 00:13:35,596 --> 00:13:37,756 Speaker 1: who didn't even have a dollar to pay for a prescription, 192 00:13:38,156 --> 00:13:42,956 Speaker 1: couldn't afford a lawyer. Here's where doctor Marston comes in. 193 00:13:44,156 --> 00:13:45,956 Speaker 1: In that course on the law of evidence, two of 194 00:13:45,956 --> 00:13:48,196 Speaker 1: his young students told him about the case, and then 195 00:13:48,196 --> 00:13:51,396 Speaker 1: they volunteered to take Fry's case for free, defending him 196 00:13:51,436 --> 00:13:54,756 Speaker 1: against the charge of murder. First, they went to visit 197 00:13:54,756 --> 00:13:58,436 Speaker 1: Fry in prison. The students, Professor Marston and his contraption, 198 00:13:58,956 --> 00:14:04,916 Speaker 1: a blood pressure cuff or a sphigmo monometer. Marston hooked 199 00:14:04,916 --> 00:14:09,516 Speaker 1: Fry up. Someone took a photograph. You can things in 200 00:14:09,516 --> 00:14:12,396 Speaker 1: a photograph that you can't see in a transcript. In 201 00:14:12,476 --> 00:14:15,956 Speaker 1: the photograph, Frye, a black man, is surrounded by white men. 202 00:14:16,476 --> 00:14:19,756 Speaker 1: Professor Marston and his law students, all in dark suits. 203 00:14:20,036 --> 00:14:25,036 Speaker 1: As they strapped Fry into Marston's machine. Marston grasps Fry's arm, 204 00:14:25,516 --> 00:14:30,716 Speaker 1: taking readings from his body. Fry later described the experience. 205 00:14:32,116 --> 00:14:34,676 Speaker 1: Several months after I had been confined in the DC jail, 206 00:14:35,396 --> 00:14:39,636 Speaker 1: my attorneys came to see me, accompanying a Professor Marston. 207 00:14:40,676 --> 00:14:43,196 Speaker 1: This learned doctor was later known to me as the 208 00:14:43,276 --> 00:14:48,116 Speaker 1: inventor of the lie detector. He asked if I would 209 00:14:48,116 --> 00:14:51,396 Speaker 1: submit to the use of this instrument to such requests, 210 00:14:51,396 --> 00:14:55,516 Speaker 1: I readily agreed. He asked me several questions, none pertaining 211 00:14:55,516 --> 00:14:58,636 Speaker 1: to the case. Then suddenly he launched upon several questions 212 00:14:58,676 --> 00:15:02,676 Speaker 1: going into every detail of the case at the Metropolitan 213 00:15:02,716 --> 00:15:05,236 Speaker 1: Courthouse one month later. This graph was supposed to be 214 00:15:05,316 --> 00:15:08,036 Speaker 1: the ace in the hole for Fry's defense, and perhaps 215 00:15:08,116 --> 00:15:11,076 Speaker 1: it would catapult Fessor Marston to fame as the greatest 216 00:15:11,156 --> 00:15:14,716 Speaker 1: legal mind of his generation. But the judge assigned to 217 00:15:14,756 --> 00:15:18,516 Speaker 1: the case, Chief Justice Walter McCoy, was famously stern, and 218 00:15:18,636 --> 00:15:21,876 Speaker 1: he was miffed. This was a big murder trial and 219 00:15:21,956 --> 00:15:24,436 Speaker 1: a lot of Deasey's black community had come out for it, 220 00:15:24,716 --> 00:15:27,236 Speaker 1: and Marston had alerted the press about it, so there 221 00:15:27,236 --> 00:15:30,036 Speaker 1: were a lot of reporters there too. Judge McCoy was 222 00:15:30,076 --> 00:15:33,276 Speaker 1: no fool. He saw early in the trial the long 223 00:15:33,356 --> 00:15:37,396 Speaker 1: game this Professor Marston was playing. Marston wanted to replace 224 00:15:37,476 --> 00:15:42,756 Speaker 1: trial by jury with trial by light detector all rise. 225 00:15:43,516 --> 00:15:46,836 Speaker 1: The prosecution called a detective who had taken Fry's confession. 226 00:15:46,916 --> 00:15:51,276 Speaker 1: I call the stand detective Clifford Grant. I interrogated James 227 00:15:51,276 --> 00:15:55,356 Speaker 1: Frye on August twenty second, nineteen twenty one. Detective Grant 228 00:15:55,396 --> 00:15:58,716 Speaker 1: testified that Fry had confessed to him, But then Fry's 229 00:15:58,756 --> 00:16:02,116 Speaker 1: lawyer Mattingly started bringing in his witnesses. I called to 230 00:16:02,356 --> 00:16:15,396 Speaker 1: st James Frye could have a glass of water. Not 231 00:16:15,516 --> 00:16:21,956 Speaker 1: a word of my confession was true. Fry recanted. He 232 00:16:21,996 --> 00:16:24,836 Speaker 1: insisted that he hadn't killed Brown. It's going to be 233 00:16:24,836 --> 00:16:27,476 Speaker 1: hard to convince a jury of this, But Marston offered 234 00:16:27,476 --> 00:16:30,356 Speaker 1: to prove with his lie detector where the real truth lay. 235 00:16:30,956 --> 00:16:34,476 Speaker 1: It was a slim hope Fry knew. Fry later wrote 236 00:16:34,916 --> 00:16:36,836 Speaker 1: that there had been no real chance for a black 237 00:16:36,836 --> 00:16:39,396 Speaker 1: man in Washington in nineteen twenty two to get a 238 00:16:39,436 --> 00:16:44,436 Speaker 1: fair trial. If I am neatly dressed and can explain myself, 239 00:16:44,956 --> 00:16:48,676 Speaker 1: I'm considered being a smart alec and must be guilty. 240 00:16:48,836 --> 00:16:52,276 Speaker 1: If I'm dressed in overalls unable to explain the situation, 241 00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:56,756 Speaker 1: then I'm considered a brute and still must be guilty. 242 00:17:01,156 --> 00:17:04,196 Speaker 1: In any ordinary trial, a train of witnesses would make 243 00:17:04,196 --> 00:17:07,756 Speaker 1: their statements, the guests at Brown's house, the police who 244 00:17:07,796 --> 00:17:10,636 Speaker 1: investigated the crime, the people who could give evidence in 245 00:17:10,716 --> 00:17:15,236 Speaker 1: support of Fry's alibi, and then the jury, twelve white 246 00:17:15,236 --> 00:17:19,236 Speaker 1: men would decide who to believe. Those men would find 247 00:17:19,276 --> 00:17:22,996 Speaker 1: the facts of the case an issue a verdict, but 248 00:17:23,196 --> 00:17:27,036 Speaker 1: which words of Fries were true, the confession he'd given 249 00:17:27,036 --> 00:17:30,116 Speaker 1: to the police or the recanting he did right there 250 00:17:30,156 --> 00:17:35,596 Speaker 1: on the stand. Fry's lawyer gamely tried to follow the 251 00:17:35,636 --> 00:17:42,636 Speaker 1: Marston defense plan. If your honor please, at this time, 252 00:17:42,876 --> 00:17:46,716 Speaker 1: I had intended to offer in evidence the testimony of 253 00:17:47,356 --> 00:17:53,196 Speaker 1: doctor William M. Marston, as an expert in deception as 254 00:17:53,356 --> 00:17:58,876 Speaker 1: testimony on what testimony as to the truth or falsity 255 00:17:59,116 --> 00:18:02,396 Speaker 1: of certain statements of the defendant? If your honor, please, 256 00:18:02,556 --> 00:18:05,756 Speaker 1: if you object to it, I will sustain the objection. 257 00:18:06,956 --> 00:18:09,716 Speaker 1: No other judge admitted the lie detector test as evidence, 258 00:18:10,116 --> 00:18:11,876 Speaker 1: and Judge McCoy didn't want to be the first one 259 00:18:11,876 --> 00:18:14,876 Speaker 1: to do it. He all but begged the prosecution to 260 00:18:14,916 --> 00:18:18,596 Speaker 1: object to this evidence, and when they didn't, he began 261 00:18:18,636 --> 00:18:22,396 Speaker 1: objecting himself. The witnesses here on the stand, and it 262 00:18:22,476 --> 00:18:24,676 Speaker 1: is for the jury to determine whether or not he 263 00:18:24,796 --> 00:18:29,236 Speaker 1: was telling the truth. That is very true, your honor. 264 00:18:29,916 --> 00:18:35,196 Speaker 1: But as expert testimony, is not this proper as competent 265 00:18:35,276 --> 00:18:38,756 Speaker 1: evidence to go before the jury to ascertain what doctor 266 00:18:38,796 --> 00:18:42,876 Speaker 1: Marston's opinion is at this time? Oh well, we get 267 00:18:42,916 --> 00:18:46,756 Speaker 1: to be more or less experts ourselves, and so do 268 00:18:46,836 --> 00:18:49,956 Speaker 1: the jury upon the question of whether anybody is telling 269 00:18:49,996 --> 00:18:52,716 Speaker 1: the truth or not. That is what the jury is for. 270 00:18:55,596 --> 00:18:59,116 Speaker 1: That is what the jury is for. It had taken 271 00:18:59,196 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 1: centuries for ordinary people, even if only still men, white men, 272 00:19:03,556 --> 00:19:05,316 Speaker 1: to gain the right to serve as jurors of the 273 00:19:05,356 --> 00:19:08,476 Speaker 1: guilt or innocence of their peers. But in the early 274 00:19:08,516 --> 00:19:11,876 Speaker 1: decades of the twentieth century, a lot of scientists calling 275 00:19:11,916 --> 00:19:14,796 Speaker 1: themselves experts. I thought they knew quite a bit more 276 00:19:14,836 --> 00:19:18,876 Speaker 1: than jurors, that they had tools, methods, even machines that 277 00:19:18,916 --> 00:19:22,516 Speaker 1: could find out the truth. Judge McCoy was smart enough 278 00:19:22,556 --> 00:19:25,436 Speaker 1: to see the size of William Marston's ambition, and he 279 00:19:25,556 --> 00:19:28,756 Speaker 1: was determined to foil it. When the next witness came 280 00:19:28,796 --> 00:19:32,716 Speaker 1: to the stand, Mattingly again approached the bench, he had 281 00:19:32,716 --> 00:19:37,236 Speaker 1: another proposition. I love this part, the jousting, the little duel, 282 00:19:38,036 --> 00:19:42,236 Speaker 1: but Mattingly was wildly outmatched. If your honor, please, before 283 00:19:42,276 --> 00:19:46,756 Speaker 1: this witness begins to testify, may I inquire whether your 284 00:19:46,756 --> 00:19:50,436 Speaker 1: honor would permit a systolic blood pressure test to be 285 00:19:50,556 --> 00:19:53,916 Speaker 1: taken during an examination of the witness on the stand. 286 00:19:54,356 --> 00:19:57,676 Speaker 1: If we are going to have a cystolic test, we 287 00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:00,996 Speaker 1: all have to test every witness who testifies in the case. 288 00:20:01,756 --> 00:20:04,036 Speaker 1: If there is any science about it, we might as 289 00:20:04,036 --> 00:20:07,476 Speaker 1: well apply the science to every witness. Mind you, I 290 00:20:07,556 --> 00:20:10,396 Speaker 1: do not know anything about the test at all. I 291 00:20:10,476 --> 00:20:13,916 Speaker 1: had certain pamphlets submitted to me yesterday to look at. 292 00:20:13,956 --> 00:20:17,876 Speaker 1: Of some doctor Marston. I believe his thesis when he 293 00:20:17,956 --> 00:20:21,476 Speaker 1: got his PhD degree I'm going to read them when 294 00:20:21,516 --> 00:20:25,436 Speaker 1: I come back from my vacation. I see enough in 295 00:20:25,476 --> 00:20:28,476 Speaker 1: them to know that so far the science has not 296 00:20:28,556 --> 00:20:32,436 Speaker 1: sufficiently developed detection of deception by blood pressure to make 297 00:20:32,476 --> 00:20:35,996 Speaker 1: it a usable instrument in a chord of law. When 298 00:20:35,996 --> 00:20:39,196 Speaker 1: it is developed to the perfection of the telephone on 299 00:20:39,276 --> 00:20:42,916 Speaker 1: the telegraph and wireless and a few other things, we 300 00:20:42,956 --> 00:20:47,756 Speaker 1: will consider it. I shall be dead by that time, probably, 301 00:20:48,356 --> 00:20:54,516 Speaker 1: and it will bother some other judge, not me. Jed 302 00:20:54,636 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 1: McCoy was a piece of work. After that, Mattingly bumbled 303 00:20:58,956 --> 00:21:01,756 Speaker 1: along for a little while before concluding, and then the 304 00:21:01,796 --> 00:21:07,676 Speaker 1: prosecution delivered its closing words. James Fry is the most 305 00:21:07,756 --> 00:21:11,876 Speaker 1: colossal liar that ever appeared in court. I rest my case. 306 00:21:13,156 --> 00:21:15,956 Speaker 1: The jury deliberated for less than an hour and found 307 00:21:16,036 --> 00:21:21,596 Speaker 1: James Fry guilty of second degree murder. Judge McCoy sentenced 308 00:21:21,676 --> 00:21:24,716 Speaker 1: him to life in prison, and Fry went by train 309 00:21:25,236 --> 00:21:28,396 Speaker 1: to Leavenworth. He was supposed to spend the rest of 310 00:21:28,436 --> 00:21:53,836 Speaker 1: his days in jail. Professor Marston was conducting an experiment, 311 00:21:54,716 --> 00:21:57,316 Speaker 1: but it's not an accident that his test subject was 312 00:21:57,316 --> 00:22:01,236 Speaker 1: a penniless black man accused of murder. Marston became a 313 00:22:01,276 --> 00:22:04,556 Speaker 1: psychologist at a time when social scientists of every stripe 314 00:22:04,756 --> 00:22:07,556 Speaker 1: were expected to try and solve what was called the 315 00:22:07,676 --> 00:22:11,676 Speaker 1: Negro problem. What that problem was shifted all the time, 316 00:22:12,276 --> 00:22:15,156 Speaker 1: but never the commitment to the notion that facts alone 317 00:22:15,196 --> 00:22:19,796 Speaker 1: couldn't solve the Negro problem. Only numbers could. Social scientists 318 00:22:19,916 --> 00:22:23,436 Speaker 1: counted everything they measured, the circumference of the skull, the 319 00:22:23,556 --> 00:22:26,756 Speaker 1: length of a life, the density of a neighborhood, the 320 00:22:26,796 --> 00:22:30,876 Speaker 1: pressure of blood. Nearly a century after the Fry Trial, 321 00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:33,796 Speaker 1: historians still spend a lot of time looking back at 322 00:22:33,796 --> 00:22:38,196 Speaker 1: this moment, the period from about eighteen ninety to nineteen thirty. 323 00:22:39,036 --> 00:22:40,716 Speaker 1: Some of the best work in this field is done 324 00:22:40,716 --> 00:22:45,556 Speaker 1: by a colleague of mine, Khalil Gibran Mohammed, Professor of History, Race, 325 00:22:45,556 --> 00:22:49,756 Speaker 1: and Public Policy at the Harvard Kennedy School. The first 326 00:22:49,796 --> 00:22:52,156 Speaker 1: time I met him was at an academic conference with 327 00:22:52,236 --> 00:22:56,156 Speaker 1: a one word title, Numbers. Were both really interested in 328 00:22:56,276 --> 00:22:59,676 Speaker 1: numbers and why people count things, what kind of knowledge 329 00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:02,956 Speaker 1: numbers add up to, and what they subtract. One of 330 00:23:02,996 --> 00:23:05,796 Speaker 1: the most amazing things about the late nineteenth century looking 331 00:23:05,836 --> 00:23:08,796 Speaker 1: at that kind of local and national data is added 332 00:23:08,836 --> 00:23:11,996 Speaker 1: looked today like an Excel spreadsheet printed out and folded 333 00:23:12,076 --> 00:23:15,556 Speaker 1: many many times over. A lot of Khalimahamma's work focuses 334 00:23:15,596 --> 00:23:20,396 Speaker 1: on how after the Civil War, after emancipation, sociologists and 335 00:23:20,516 --> 00:23:25,676 Speaker 1: government agencies collected statistics on black crime to argue that 336 00:23:25,716 --> 00:23:29,116 Speaker 1: black people were by their very nature criminal, that they 337 00:23:29,156 --> 00:23:32,316 Speaker 1: were genetically not fit for their freedom, and so had 338 00:23:32,356 --> 00:23:36,836 Speaker 1: to be watched and studied endlessly. You could almost think 339 00:23:36,876 --> 00:23:40,596 Speaker 1: of it like a person who is in rehab, and 340 00:23:40,876 --> 00:23:44,916 Speaker 1: you develop certain protocols to keep track of their progress. 341 00:23:45,596 --> 00:23:47,676 Speaker 1: How many meals, how many hours do they sleep, what 342 00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:50,396 Speaker 1: are the signs of a healthy lifestyle. Whereas you wouldn't 343 00:23:50,396 --> 00:23:51,916 Speaker 1: do this for a normal person, You wouldn't keep a 344 00:23:51,956 --> 00:23:55,116 Speaker 1: ledger of such things. And so, to use this metaphor, 345 00:23:55,196 --> 00:23:57,796 Speaker 1: it was that ledger keeping of African Americans that was 346 00:23:57,836 --> 00:24:01,196 Speaker 1: a reflection of those same progressives thinking black people are 347 00:24:01,236 --> 00:24:04,676 Speaker 1: not still fully ready for full participation, so we'll keep 348 00:24:04,676 --> 00:24:06,556 Speaker 1: an eye on this crime thing. Well, the truth is, 349 00:24:06,556 --> 00:24:08,396 Speaker 1: we live in the wake of all these ideas. They're 350 00:24:08,436 --> 00:24:11,676 Speaker 1: baked in to our consciousness already, so we know what 351 00:24:11,756 --> 00:24:14,116 Speaker 1: to make of it. We can either make of it 352 00:24:14,236 --> 00:24:18,156 Speaker 1: that black people have a crime problem, or that black 353 00:24:18,156 --> 00:24:22,316 Speaker 1: people are subject to systematic racism and system or we 354 00:24:22,396 --> 00:24:26,036 Speaker 1: might say some mixture of boat. These ideas we live 355 00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:28,996 Speaker 1: in that are already in our consciousness, A lot of 356 00:24:28,996 --> 00:24:31,756 Speaker 1: them go back to a man named Frederick Hoffman. In 357 00:24:31,796 --> 00:24:35,196 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety six, he published a book called Race Traits 358 00:24:35,236 --> 00:24:39,236 Speaker 1: and Tendencies of the American Negro. Hoffman wanted to argue 359 00:24:39,276 --> 00:24:42,836 Speaker 1: that Blacks were inferior. Up until then, those arguments had 360 00:24:42,836 --> 00:24:46,396 Speaker 1: been based on racial pseudoscience, measuring skull sizes or some 361 00:24:46,436 --> 00:24:50,916 Speaker 1: other physical differences. Hoffman was pretty innovative and shifting that 362 00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:54,716 Speaker 1: gaze to crime statistics, and from that point forward, the 363 00:24:54,796 --> 00:25:00,356 Speaker 1: framework that he used that the disproportionate evidence of black 364 00:25:00,396 --> 00:25:05,076 Speaker 1: people being in prison was was on its own, with 365 00:25:05,196 --> 00:25:10,156 Speaker 1: no further analysis, no footnotes, no asterisks. The best proof 366 00:25:10,476 --> 00:25:14,116 Speaker 1: that black people were inferior to people of European descent. 367 00:25:14,676 --> 00:25:20,196 Speaker 1: Police discrimination and brutality didn't matter, rates of conviction mattered, 368 00:25:20,836 --> 00:25:24,036 Speaker 1: other factors, and the culture just soaks it up like 369 00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:29,996 Speaker 1: a sponge. Yeah, and it still does. Professor William Moulton Marston. 370 00:25:30,396 --> 00:25:33,116 Speaker 1: He wanted to turn James Frye into a set of numbers. 371 00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:35,676 Speaker 1: The numbers on the graph paper from his lie detector 372 00:25:35,716 --> 00:25:39,036 Speaker 1: test Marston wanted to turn Fry into a number, not 373 00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:41,356 Speaker 1: to prove that he was a criminal, but to prove 374 00:25:41,396 --> 00:25:45,036 Speaker 1: that he wasn't. And maybe I should admit here, I 375 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:47,436 Speaker 1: don't know whether James Frye was guilty or not. He 376 00:25:47,516 --> 00:25:49,516 Speaker 1: was at the scene of the crime, he had a motive, 377 00:25:49,676 --> 00:25:53,156 Speaker 1: he had a weapon, and he confessed. So it looks 378 00:25:53,156 --> 00:25:56,836 Speaker 1: pretty bad. But then again, Marston had a lot on 379 00:25:56,876 --> 00:25:59,756 Speaker 1: the line, and he was pretty sure that Fry was innocent. 380 00:26:01,916 --> 00:26:04,116 Speaker 1: I might not be sure whether fry was guilty or not, 381 00:26:04,636 --> 00:26:08,996 Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure Marston ever expected to get fry acquitted. Instead, 382 00:26:09,276 --> 00:26:11,436 Speaker 1: he was hoping to take Fry's case all the way 383 00:26:11,476 --> 00:26:14,516 Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court to demonstrate the merit of his invention. 384 00:26:15,516 --> 00:26:18,756 Speaker 1: Marston dreamed of convincing the nation's highest court that his 385 00:26:18,876 --> 00:26:22,396 Speaker 1: machine could tell better than any jury who was telling 386 00:26:22,396 --> 00:26:28,876 Speaker 1: the truth. Men come to judge this question by certain 387 00:26:28,996 --> 00:26:32,316 Speaker 1: arbitrary standards in the course of their dealings with others. 388 00:26:33,676 --> 00:26:36,436 Speaker 1: After for I went to prison, Marston helped to student 389 00:26:36,516 --> 00:26:39,316 Speaker 1: lawyers file an appeal. Or to be honest, I'm pretty 390 00:26:39,316 --> 00:26:42,756 Speaker 1: sure Marston just wrote the brief himself. It asked, how 391 00:26:42,796 --> 00:26:45,556 Speaker 1: does the court tell whether or not someone is lying. 392 00:26:47,436 --> 00:26:49,956 Speaker 1: The decision may hinge upon the look in the eyes, 393 00:26:50,236 --> 00:26:53,796 Speaker 1: the expression on the face, the nervous condition of the witness, 394 00:26:53,836 --> 00:26:57,996 Speaker 1: the rosy flush which suffuses his countenance, or upon any 395 00:26:57,996 --> 00:27:00,596 Speaker 1: one of many other evidences which may or may not 396 00:27:00,676 --> 00:27:03,836 Speaker 1: be taken to indicate truth or deception. We say that 397 00:27:03,876 --> 00:27:07,596 Speaker 1: there is no standard and no logical or reasonable basis 398 00:27:07,596 --> 00:27:09,916 Speaker 1: for the determination of this question in general, in the 399 00:27:09,956 --> 00:27:13,436 Speaker 1: absence of positive evidence of deception, and that if science 400 00:27:13,636 --> 00:27:17,116 Speaker 1: has developed a method of accurately determining whether a man 401 00:27:17,236 --> 00:27:20,036 Speaker 1: is in a mental condition or state of truth or 402 00:27:20,076 --> 00:27:22,876 Speaker 1: of deception, the court and jury should be given the 403 00:27:22,916 --> 00:27:25,916 Speaker 1: benefit of this assistance. But the State, in its own 404 00:27:25,996 --> 00:27:28,796 Speaker 1: brief said that the idea of trial by lie detector 405 00:27:29,476 --> 00:27:33,356 Speaker 1: was ridiculous. Whatever may be said against the system of 406 00:27:33,396 --> 00:27:37,316 Speaker 1: trial by jury under the Constitution and laws, a jury 407 00:27:37,356 --> 00:27:41,276 Speaker 1: of twelve impartial men are peculiarly fitted to sift conflicting 408 00:27:41,276 --> 00:27:45,676 Speaker 1: and contradictory testimony and derive at a just verdict. As 409 00:27:45,716 --> 00:27:49,436 Speaker 1: for Marston, whether he can or cannot detect deception is 410 00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:51,516 Speaker 1: something that does not appear to be known to anyone 411 00:27:51,556 --> 00:27:58,676 Speaker 1: except doctor Marston. At the end of nineteen twenty three, 412 00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:01,676 Speaker 1: the DC Circuit Court of Appeals issued its decision and 413 00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:05,476 Speaker 1: Fry versus the United States. The court ruled against Fry 414 00:28:06,116 --> 00:28:09,316 Speaker 1: and also against Marston and his lie Detector, and the 415 00:28:09,356 --> 00:28:12,436 Speaker 1: decision established a new rule of evidence, something that came 416 00:28:12,476 --> 00:28:18,196 Speaker 1: to be called the Frie test. It became the most 417 00:28:18,276 --> 00:28:22,556 Speaker 1: cited precedent in the history of law and science. The 418 00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:25,156 Speaker 1: Frie test is a test of evidence, a rule that 419 00:28:25,196 --> 00:28:27,636 Speaker 1: a judge applies and deciding whether or not to admit 420 00:28:27,676 --> 00:28:31,676 Speaker 1: the testimony of a supposed expert. It's only eighty one 421 00:28:31,716 --> 00:28:33,956 Speaker 1: words long, but I'm going to make you listen to 422 00:28:33,996 --> 00:28:37,316 Speaker 1: all of them. Listen for what the rule says, but 423 00:28:37,476 --> 00:28:41,436 Speaker 1: listen to for what it doesn't say. Just when a 424 00:28:41,556 --> 00:28:45,396 Speaker 1: scientific principle or discovery crosses the line between the experimental 425 00:28:45,556 --> 00:28:49,476 Speaker 1: and demonstrable stages is difficult to define. Somewhere in this 426 00:28:49,676 --> 00:28:53,516 Speaker 1: twilight zone, the evidential force of the principle must be recognized. 427 00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:55,636 Speaker 1: And while the courts will go a long way in 428 00:28:55,676 --> 00:28:59,876 Speaker 1: admitting expert testimony deduced from a well recognized scientific principle 429 00:28:59,996 --> 00:29:02,756 Speaker 1: or discovery, the thing from which the deduction is made 430 00:29:02,796 --> 00:29:05,956 Speaker 1: must be sufficiently established to have gained general acceptance. In 431 00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:11,396 Speaker 1: the particular field in which it belongs. All of the 432 00:29:11,476 --> 00:29:14,276 Speaker 1: facts of Fry's case were stripped out of the ruling. 433 00:29:14,916 --> 00:29:17,596 Speaker 1: That's how the law works. All that survives when court 434 00:29:17,636 --> 00:29:21,356 Speaker 1: supply the Fried test are those eighty one words. Everything 435 00:29:21,356 --> 00:29:26,556 Speaker 1: else is erased, including one very important circumstance, something pretty 436 00:29:26,556 --> 00:29:29,316 Speaker 1: widely known at the time, but that since then has 437 00:29:29,316 --> 00:29:34,796 Speaker 1: been almost entirely forgotten. That fact is this. Between Fry's 438 00:29:34,836 --> 00:29:38,196 Speaker 1: trial and disappeal, federal marshals went to the office of 439 00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:41,916 Speaker 1: Professor William Molton Marston at American University, and there they 440 00:29:41,996 --> 00:29:46,796 Speaker 1: arrested him for fraud. It turns out that the inventor 441 00:29:46,836 --> 00:29:50,516 Speaker 1: of the light detector test, he was a notorious liar. 442 00:29:53,676 --> 00:29:57,796 Speaker 1: So did he ever give you guys a light detector test? Oh? Yes, 443 00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:02,996 Speaker 1: we were experimental animals. So tell me about that. Was 444 00:30:02,996 --> 00:30:07,716 Speaker 1: it like? Well, sham? Really, none of us hadn't believed 445 00:30:07,716 --> 00:30:11,956 Speaker 1: it at all, And as far as settling disputes around 446 00:30:11,956 --> 00:30:16,756 Speaker 1: the house, it was laughable. That's Burne Holloway Marston, the 447 00:30:16,876 --> 00:30:20,316 Speaker 1: son of William Moulton Marston, he of lie detector fame 448 00:30:21,196 --> 00:30:25,756 Speaker 1: Byrne is eighty eight, a retired obstetrician. He's a sweetheart. 449 00:30:26,236 --> 00:30:28,196 Speaker 1: I first met him a few years back when I 450 00:30:28,236 --> 00:30:32,596 Speaker 1: got fascinated by the crazy, truly crazy story of his father. 451 00:30:33,316 --> 00:30:36,436 Speaker 1: Burne was born in nineteen thirty one, nine years after 452 00:30:36,476 --> 00:30:40,876 Speaker 1: the Fried Child. Little Burne was beloved and like everything 453 00:30:40,956 --> 00:30:43,796 Speaker 1: else in his father's life, he was an experiment, a 454 00:30:43,876 --> 00:30:47,396 Speaker 1: test case, among other things, for his father's lie detector test. 455 00:30:48,436 --> 00:30:53,316 Speaker 1: So it was like, hoostile know Don's sweater? Was it you, Peter, 456 00:30:53,476 --> 00:30:55,916 Speaker 1: you Burne, Let's give you a lie detector tests? No, 457 00:30:56,076 --> 00:30:58,756 Speaker 1: it wasn't a regular basis, but it didn't happen. The 458 00:30:58,796 --> 00:31:01,116 Speaker 1: fact that Marston was a father of four and used 459 00:31:01,116 --> 00:31:03,236 Speaker 1: to use his lie detector test on his kids is 460 00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:05,996 Speaker 1: a good story, But there are other reasons to spend 461 00:31:06,036 --> 00:31:09,596 Speaker 1: a little bit of time with Marston's private life, because 462 00:31:09,596 --> 00:31:14,556 Speaker 1: it's completely zaney, and second, because Marston's public persona turns 463 00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:19,316 Speaker 1: out to have been one big lie. Marston lie meter 464 00:31:19,556 --> 00:31:25,556 Speaker 1: inventor arrested charged by Boston authorities with using the mails 465 00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:30,596 Speaker 1: to defraud. William Marston, a professor at the American University, 466 00:31:30,956 --> 00:31:35,556 Speaker 1: was arrested yesterday at a preliminary hearing. He was held 467 00:31:35,596 --> 00:31:39,956 Speaker 1: in a three thousand dollars bond Marston several months ago, 468 00:31:40,036 --> 00:31:46,556 Speaker 1: constructed a machine which he declared could detect lies. The 469 00:31:46,676 --> 00:31:49,436 Speaker 1: churches against Marston actually had nothing to do with the 470 00:31:49,516 --> 00:31:52,476 Speaker 1: lie detector. They had to do with a super sketchy 471 00:31:52,556 --> 00:31:56,556 Speaker 1: business scheme of his. The churches were also eventually dropped. 472 00:31:57,636 --> 00:31:59,436 Speaker 1: But all this was going on at the same time 473 00:31:59,476 --> 00:32:03,076 Speaker 1: Marston was working on Fry's appeal. Marston lost that appeal, 474 00:32:03,596 --> 00:32:08,916 Speaker 1: Frye lost that appeal, and Marston got fired from American University. 475 00:32:11,676 --> 00:32:14,996 Speaker 1: But that wasn't the end of William Moulton Marston. He 476 00:32:15,076 --> 00:32:17,916 Speaker 1: got another job teaching at Tufts, where he began an 477 00:32:17,916 --> 00:32:21,356 Speaker 1: affair with one of his undergraduates, a young feminist named 478 00:32:21,356 --> 00:32:24,796 Speaker 1: Alive Byrne. She came from a radical family. Her mother 479 00:32:24,876 --> 00:32:27,956 Speaker 1: and her aunt, Margaret Sanger, had together opened the first 480 00:32:27,956 --> 00:32:31,356 Speaker 1: birth control clinic in the United States. What became planned 481 00:32:31,396 --> 00:32:35,436 Speaker 1: parented my friend Burne Marston. Olive Byrne was his mother. 482 00:32:36,116 --> 00:32:47,156 Speaker 1: My mother was a swassie, blue collar, Irish, witty, attractive 483 00:32:48,516 --> 00:32:52,796 Speaker 1: black irish black hair and pale skin, freckles and those 484 00:32:52,796 --> 00:32:57,316 Speaker 1: blue eyes and a blue eyes. Since that was the 485 00:32:57,396 --> 00:33:04,636 Speaker 1: beginning of the ah Yes the manaji Professor Morriston had 486 00:33:04,716 --> 00:33:08,236 Speaker 1: radical ideas about sex and about gender roles too. He 487 00:33:08,316 --> 00:33:11,876 Speaker 1: had four children by two women, his wife Elizabeth Holloway 488 00:33:11,996 --> 00:33:15,316 Speaker 1: and Burne's mother, Alive Burne. Burne's own name is a 489 00:33:15,396 --> 00:33:18,756 Speaker 1: mashup Burn, Holloway, Marston. He's got the names of each 490 00:33:18,756 --> 00:33:24,516 Speaker 1: of his three parents. The grown ups lived as a threesome, which, 491 00:33:24,516 --> 00:33:26,996 Speaker 1: as you might guess, was something of a family secret 492 00:33:27,556 --> 00:33:30,676 Speaker 1: because at the time you could be blacklisted from academia, 493 00:33:30,836 --> 00:33:36,076 Speaker 1: from any job for homosexuality, not to mention polyamory. The 494 00:33:36,156 --> 00:33:38,396 Speaker 1: Marston clan eventually moved to Ryan, New York, to a 495 00:33:38,396 --> 00:33:41,636 Speaker 1: big house, a place they called Cherry Orchard. Burn always 496 00:33:41,636 --> 00:33:43,596 Speaker 1: says it was an incredibly fun way to grow up 497 00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:47,636 Speaker 1: with so much love and this kookie father. He did 498 00:33:47,716 --> 00:33:51,276 Speaker 1: not conform him. You could hear him coughing at night. 499 00:33:51,756 --> 00:33:57,396 Speaker 1: He smoked all the time, and he cerebrated better in 500 00:33:57,436 --> 00:34:04,436 Speaker 1: the reclining with a whiskey. And he was a big guy. 501 00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:07,476 Speaker 1: Yeah he was me, Yeah, he was, I thank you. 502 00:34:07,876 --> 00:34:12,236 Speaker 1: It's probably about six feet so his weight very one 503 00:34:12,396 --> 00:34:16,396 Speaker 1: st at the time. He got to three hundred and 504 00:34:16,436 --> 00:34:18,356 Speaker 1: then he said, that's great. I'm going to join the 505 00:34:18,356 --> 00:34:21,676 Speaker 1: fat Man's Club in New York. Which is actually that's 506 00:34:21,676 --> 00:34:29,596 Speaker 1: the real thing. But he that was his life. He 507 00:34:29,676 --> 00:34:33,996 Speaker 1: was always creating, I guess because as you know, the 508 00:34:34,476 --> 00:34:38,516 Speaker 1: variety of things that he did were incredibly He always 509 00:34:38,756 --> 00:34:42,876 Speaker 1: self helped stuff for leader, threw himself into things when 510 00:34:43,276 --> 00:34:46,636 Speaker 1: you know when he did them. Marston was furiously curious, 511 00:34:46,676 --> 00:34:50,276 Speaker 1: always conducting experiments, always looking for the next big thing. 512 00:34:51,156 --> 00:34:54,356 Speaker 1: But whenever anyone found out about his polyamorous family arrangements, 513 00:34:55,316 --> 00:34:58,596 Speaker 1: they fired him. He lost his job at Tufts, and 514 00:34:58,636 --> 00:35:01,636 Speaker 1: then he lost a job at Columbia. So then he went, 515 00:35:01,716 --> 00:35:06,236 Speaker 1: we're all disgraced academics hoped to go. He went to Hollywood. 516 00:35:06,676 --> 00:35:11,316 Speaker 1: He was in all the gossip columns New York Evening Post. 517 00:35:12,196 --> 00:35:16,116 Speaker 1: Doctor Marston, who won't write ba PhD in L'll b 518 00:35:16,316 --> 00:35:19,076 Speaker 1: after his name in another week because Hollywood is touchy 519 00:35:19,116 --> 00:35:22,956 Speaker 1: about such things, is going to be the psychological authority 520 00:35:23,236 --> 00:35:27,516 Speaker 1: behind all forthcoming motion pictures. From one big concern in 521 00:35:27,596 --> 00:35:30,916 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, Marston went to work for Universal Studios as 522 00:35:30,956 --> 00:35:34,916 Speaker 1: a consulting psychologist, mainly on horror films. What did he 523 00:35:34,996 --> 00:35:37,316 Speaker 1: do is he took up whole audiences to his wide 524 00:35:37,356 --> 00:35:40,156 Speaker 1: detector while they watched the rushes. Then he'd advised the 525 00:35:40,196 --> 00:35:43,876 Speaker 1: studio about whether the films were too racy or too scary, 526 00:35:44,076 --> 00:35:47,396 Speaker 1: or not scary enough or not racy enough. He did 527 00:35:47,396 --> 00:35:54,396 Speaker 1: other nutty experiments too. Doctor Marston and Emotions. It's eighteenth 528 00:35:54,436 --> 00:35:58,876 Speaker 1: of July nineteen thirty and doctor William Marston demonstrates complicated 529 00:35:58,916 --> 00:36:02,956 Speaker 1: device whereby he claims he can determine and compute comparative 530 00:36:02,996 --> 00:36:07,596 Speaker 1: emotions of blondes, brunettes and redheads. Says Marston, Ladies and gentlemen, 531 00:36:07,796 --> 00:36:10,996 Speaker 1: hold onto your hats. Here comes the real voice of 532 00:36:11,076 --> 00:36:16,076 Speaker 1: William Marston. This is the spigmamnometer, an instrument which measures 533 00:36:16,076 --> 00:36:21,356 Speaker 1: the subject's blood pressure. This is the kimograph drum, which 534 00:36:21,356 --> 00:36:26,196 Speaker 1: records the breathing. The breathing is taken with anomograph around 535 00:36:26,196 --> 00:36:29,676 Speaker 1: the subject's chest. We are now going to test the 536 00:36:29,756 --> 00:36:33,876 Speaker 1: girl's reactions to gambling. The announcer watches the needle etche 537 00:36:33,916 --> 00:36:37,356 Speaker 1: marks into a rotating drum. Thing of the jig a kinograph. 538 00:36:37,916 --> 00:36:41,236 Speaker 1: There's kidograph with the indicator showing one girl's reaction the 539 00:36:41,316 --> 00:36:45,276 Speaker 1: game of chats. Needle is moved by subject's breathing. Here 540 00:36:45,316 --> 00:36:48,716 Speaker 1: we see how redhead reacts to gambling and as she wins. 541 00:36:49,116 --> 00:36:52,836 Speaker 1: Marston's emotion finder indicates that redheads show a most emotion 542 00:36:52,956 --> 00:36:56,556 Speaker 1: when gambling. When I visited Bernard's house, we watched the 543 00:36:56,556 --> 00:36:58,796 Speaker 1: newsreel together. He did it come out the year he 544 00:36:58,956 --> 00:37:07,236 Speaker 1: was born? Oh man, that's just so it's like a 545 00:37:07,356 --> 00:37:13,236 Speaker 1: quack show from from the twenties? Is I don't know, 546 00:37:16,836 --> 00:37:19,516 Speaker 1: but like did he believe that? Where is that just showing? 547 00:37:19,556 --> 00:37:22,436 Speaker 1: I think it was shy. He had walk on the 548 00:37:22,516 --> 00:37:26,636 Speaker 1: parapose of in New York City. Uh, you know, twenty 549 00:37:26,676 --> 00:37:29,796 Speaker 1: stories up and see which one would react the most. 550 00:37:31,076 --> 00:37:34,556 Speaker 1: I mean it's a yeah, it's a little it's not 551 00:37:34,756 --> 00:37:39,716 Speaker 1: very scientific. Yeah, I have a theory. I think people 552 00:37:39,756 --> 00:37:46,436 Speaker 1: who study lying tend to be liars, compulsive liars. Marston 553 00:37:46,476 --> 00:37:51,316 Speaker 1: definitely was what are the facts about razor blade quality? 554 00:37:51,756 --> 00:37:54,516 Speaker 1: That's what you let wanted to know, and that's why 555 00:37:54,596 --> 00:37:59,676 Speaker 1: you let retain Doctor William Moulton Marston, eminent psychologist and 556 00:37:59,796 --> 00:38:05,076 Speaker 1: originator of the famous lie detector, to conduct scientific tests 557 00:38:05,116 --> 00:38:10,836 Speaker 1: that reveal the whole truth. Truck drivers, bank presidents, men 558 00:38:10,836 --> 00:38:14,316 Speaker 1: in every walk of life. These men shade while every 559 00:38:14,396 --> 00:38:21,956 Speaker 1: reaction is measured and recorded, not knowing which blade is which, 560 00:38:22,196 --> 00:38:25,996 Speaker 1: each subject shades, one half his face with a Gillette blade, 561 00:38:26,316 --> 00:38:29,316 Speaker 1: the other with the blade of a competitive brand, while 562 00:38:29,316 --> 00:38:33,436 Speaker 1: the line detector accurately charts the reactions. In more than 563 00:38:33,556 --> 00:38:36,876 Speaker 1: nine out of every ten cases, the shavers choose Gillette, 564 00:38:37,516 --> 00:38:41,796 Speaker 1: says doctor Marston, the results of my study make it 565 00:38:41,876 --> 00:38:46,396 Speaker 1: possible for me to state flatly and back my statements 566 00:38:46,436 --> 00:38:52,236 Speaker 1: with positive proof that Gillette blades are far superior in 567 00:38:52,396 --> 00:38:58,316 Speaker 1: every respect to competitive blades tested. Gillette blades precision made 568 00:39:01,436 --> 00:39:04,636 Speaker 1: The FBI apparently had by now had enough of doctor 569 00:39:04,676 --> 00:39:08,916 Speaker 1: William Moulton Marston and decided to investigate this Gillette scheme. 570 00:39:09,716 --> 00:39:12,796 Speaker 1: FBI agents brought Marston to a police station in Detroit 571 00:39:13,196 --> 00:39:16,236 Speaker 1: and told him to replicate his experiments while police officers 572 00:39:16,276 --> 00:39:20,516 Speaker 1: looked on. He couldn't. Only five and ten men tested 573 00:39:20,516 --> 00:39:23,996 Speaker 1: in the station preferred Gillette. FBI director j Edgar Hoover 574 00:39:24,076 --> 00:39:28,116 Speaker 1: wrote a note to himself in his Marston file. I 575 00:39:28,156 --> 00:39:30,716 Speaker 1: always thought this fellow Marston was a phony, and this 576 00:39:31,036 --> 00:39:35,116 Speaker 1: proves it. But if Marston was a compulsive liar, so 577 00:39:35,316 --> 00:39:38,396 Speaker 1: is olive Byrne. She wrote articles for a women's magazine 578 00:39:38,436 --> 00:39:41,796 Speaker 1: for years, and in those articles she'd quote the famed 579 00:39:41,916 --> 00:39:46,356 Speaker 1: psychologist William Marston as if he were a stranger, when 580 00:39:46,396 --> 00:39:50,796 Speaker 1: of course they lived together. She once wrote an article 581 00:39:50,836 --> 00:39:53,596 Speaker 1: about the Fry case, and in nineteen thirty six, when 582 00:39:53,636 --> 00:39:56,556 Speaker 1: Fry applied for a pardon, he included her article with 583 00:39:56,596 --> 00:40:00,756 Speaker 1: his application. I find this a little heartbreaking. Fry was 584 00:40:00,836 --> 00:40:03,676 Speaker 1: thirty four then, he'd been in prison since he was 585 00:40:03,716 --> 00:40:07,236 Speaker 1: twenty two. I don't know if he killed doctor Robert Brown. 586 00:40:08,116 --> 00:40:10,716 Speaker 1: I think there's a real chance he did, but I 587 00:40:10,756 --> 00:40:13,356 Speaker 1: do know for certain that he didn't get a fair trial. 588 00:40:14,076 --> 00:40:18,196 Speaker 1: He filed petition after petition, insisting on his innocence. Had 589 00:40:18,236 --> 00:40:21,596 Speaker 1: I been fortunate to have had lawyers, judges or intelligent 590 00:40:21,596 --> 00:40:24,716 Speaker 1: people on the jury, I would never have been convicted. 591 00:40:25,476 --> 00:40:28,836 Speaker 1: I'm anxious to have the case reopened, if possible, in 592 00:40:28,956 --> 00:40:32,476 Speaker 1: order that my name could be cleared. The courts denied 593 00:40:32,476 --> 00:40:36,596 Speaker 1: his petition two years later, in nineteen thirty eight, Marston 594 00:40:36,596 --> 00:40:39,236 Speaker 1: published a book called The Lie Detector Test and gave 595 00:40:39,276 --> 00:40:42,796 Speaker 1: a copy to Burn, inscribing it for Burn Marston to 596 00:40:42,836 --> 00:40:45,996 Speaker 1: help him always tell the truth with love from Daddy. 597 00:40:47,676 --> 00:40:50,956 Speaker 1: The next year, Fry was prulled. He'd served more than 598 00:40:50,996 --> 00:40:54,916 Speaker 1: eighteen years in prison. On his release, still determined to 599 00:40:54,956 --> 00:40:58,036 Speaker 1: prove his innocence, he renewed his petition for a pardon. 600 00:40:58,796 --> 00:41:01,356 Speaker 1: Since my freedom from prison, I have married and have 601 00:41:01,396 --> 00:41:04,556 Speaker 1: a fine wife. He petitioned again and again, even applying 602 00:41:04,596 --> 00:41:08,116 Speaker 1: for presidential pardon. I gotta wonder would a guilty man 603 00:41:08,196 --> 00:41:10,756 Speaker 1: have kept on pressing the case years after his release. 604 00:41:12,356 --> 00:41:15,116 Speaker 1: Most people are under an impression that because a person 605 00:41:15,196 --> 00:41:19,756 Speaker 1: has been indicted, tried, and sentenced, they are guilty. They 606 00:41:19,796 --> 00:41:22,396 Speaker 1: do not stop to realize the fact that and all 607 00:41:22,436 --> 00:41:27,116 Speaker 1: three conditions named above are human decisions, and that no 608 00:41:27,276 --> 00:41:31,676 Speaker 1: human decision is infallible. I am innocent of the charge 609 00:41:31,716 --> 00:41:34,836 Speaker 1: against me. I have every reason to believe that the 610 00:41:34,876 --> 00:41:38,516 Speaker 1: courts of the District of Columbia thought so. After all, 611 00:41:39,076 --> 00:41:42,596 Speaker 1: this is Washington, and the question of race plays an 612 00:41:42,636 --> 00:41:49,636 Speaker 1: important part even in the courts. James Fry died in 613 00:41:49,756 --> 00:41:54,836 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty six, his name was never cleared. Instead, it 614 00:41:54,996 --> 00:41:58,316 Speaker 1: lived on as the name of a test of evidence. 615 00:42:02,956 --> 00:42:06,756 Speaker 1: Fry's name also became a verb. To be fried is 616 00:42:06,796 --> 00:42:11,796 Speaker 1: to have your expert witnesses testimony deemed inadmissible. Marston's name 617 00:42:11,876 --> 00:42:13,836 Speaker 1: isn't a verb. He don't get Marston if you take 618 00:42:13,876 --> 00:42:17,996 Speaker 1: a lie detector test instead. Marston is hardly remembered for 619 00:42:18,036 --> 00:42:21,476 Speaker 1: the lie detector test. He's remembered for a different invention 620 00:42:21,516 --> 00:42:25,756 Speaker 1: of his called Onto Your Headphones. It's about to get weird. 621 00:42:27,796 --> 00:42:31,356 Speaker 1: In nineteen forty one, Marston, his wife Elizabeth Holloway, and 622 00:42:31,476 --> 00:42:34,876 Speaker 1: his other wife Alive Byrne created the comic book superhero 623 00:42:34,956 --> 00:42:38,196 Speaker 1: wonder Woman, the best known feminist icon of all time. 624 00:42:38,636 --> 00:42:41,436 Speaker 1: She fights for women's rights. She's in fact based on 625 00:42:41,476 --> 00:42:45,276 Speaker 1: Margaret Sanger, founder of Plant Parenthood. I came across the 626 00:42:45,276 --> 00:42:48,196 Speaker 1: evidence of this entire crazy story years ago in an archive, 627 00:42:48,516 --> 00:42:50,316 Speaker 1: and I had to write a book about it. It's 628 00:42:50,356 --> 00:42:53,276 Speaker 1: called The Secret History of Wonder Woman. It's a story 629 00:42:53,276 --> 00:42:56,556 Speaker 1: about feminism, but it's also a story about evidence and truth. 630 00:42:57,396 --> 00:43:00,436 Speaker 1: Wonder Woman fights for justice on her foe arms. She 631 00:43:00,476 --> 00:43:03,516 Speaker 1: wears two middle bracelets that can stop bullets. They look 632 00:43:03,556 --> 00:43:05,916 Speaker 1: just like the ones Alive Byrne used to wear, and 633 00:43:05,996 --> 00:43:09,756 Speaker 1: of course she has her own lie detector. Marston once 634 00:43:09,796 --> 00:43:12,596 Speaker 1: wrote a wonder Woman's story about the Fry trial. I 635 00:43:12,636 --> 00:43:15,916 Speaker 1: am pretty sure none of One Woman's readers recognize the illusion. 636 00:43:16,716 --> 00:43:20,196 Speaker 1: But in this particular story, Marston imagines a courtroom scene 637 00:43:20,196 --> 00:43:22,116 Speaker 1: and which wonder Woman tries to get a judge to 638 00:43:22,196 --> 00:43:25,916 Speaker 1: accept as evidence the results of an interrogation she's conducted 639 00:43:26,196 --> 00:43:32,156 Speaker 1: using her golden lasso of truth. I understand you examine 640 00:43:32,236 --> 00:43:37,476 Speaker 1: this defendant with your remarkable Amazonian lasso. Yes, oh well 641 00:43:37,516 --> 00:43:41,676 Speaker 1: it's highly irregular. I'd like to hear your finding. I 642 00:43:41,716 --> 00:43:46,836 Speaker 1: will show you judge objection sustain. Okay. So then Wonder 643 00:43:46,836 --> 00:43:49,756 Speaker 1: Woman lassoes the defendant Priscilla Rich and drags her to 644 00:43:49,796 --> 00:43:52,596 Speaker 1: the witness stand and gets her to confess that yes, yes, 645 00:43:52,676 --> 00:43:57,716 Speaker 1: she really is the supervillain known as the Cheetah, after 646 00:43:57,716 --> 00:44:02,356 Speaker 1: which the odd, grateful and besotted judge shakes Wonder Woman's hand. 647 00:44:03,796 --> 00:44:07,676 Speaker 1: Your advice was invaluable, Wonder Woman. I wish you'd give 648 00:44:07,756 --> 00:44:15,396 Speaker 1: me further call on me anytime. Marston rewrote the story 649 00:44:15,436 --> 00:44:17,796 Speaker 1: of the Fry Trial the way he'd wanted it to 650 00:44:17,836 --> 00:44:21,556 Speaker 1: come out, with himself as the hero and Judge McCoy 651 00:44:21,756 --> 00:44:25,996 Speaker 1: worshiping him. But in nineteen forty four, just when Marston 652 00:44:26,036 --> 00:44:29,836 Speaker 1: finally realized this triumph with Wonder Woman, he got really sick. 653 00:44:31,276 --> 00:44:36,596 Speaker 1: He had well apparently was polio, and this is coincided 654 00:44:36,636 --> 00:44:40,076 Speaker 1: with the success of Wonder What. He was finally making 655 00:44:40,076 --> 00:44:42,476 Speaker 1: it something as he kind of yeah, pay him enough 656 00:44:42,556 --> 00:44:45,116 Speaker 1: money to support all these people and watch something be 657 00:44:45,196 --> 00:44:48,916 Speaker 1: successful and watching be successful and it was I mean, 658 00:44:48,956 --> 00:44:55,276 Speaker 1: that's a kind of a tragic life and means yeah, right, 659 00:44:55,356 --> 00:44:59,716 Speaker 1: because Wonder Woman has endured outside of the Last Archive, 660 00:45:00,556 --> 00:45:04,996 Speaker 1: very little. Last James Fry is all but forgotten except 661 00:45:05,076 --> 00:45:08,676 Speaker 1: for his last name. A test of truth, but in 662 00:45:08,796 --> 00:45:13,076 Speaker 1: just injustice endures, and if you want to fight it, 663 00:45:13,516 --> 00:45:16,476 Speaker 1: you don't need a lasso of truth or a lie detector, 664 00:45:17,156 --> 00:45:20,716 Speaker 1: but you do need knowledge and evidence, even the kind 665 00:45:20,756 --> 00:45:23,516 Speaker 1: of evidence we'll try to find in the next episode 666 00:45:23,756 --> 00:45:31,076 Speaker 1: of The Last Archive, The Evidence of the Invisible. The 667 00:45:31,196 --> 00:45:33,956 Speaker 1: Last Archive is produced by Sophie Crane mcabin and Ben 668 00:45:34,036 --> 00:45:36,796 Speaker 1: Natt of Haffrey. Our editor is Julia Barton and our 669 00:45:36,836 --> 00:45:40,756 Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia Lobell. Jason Gambrella is our engineer. 670 00:45:40,916 --> 00:45:44,276 Speaker 1: Fact checking by Amy Gaines. Original music by Matthias Boss 671 00:45:44,396 --> 00:45:47,676 Speaker 1: and John Evans Hostelwagen Symfinett. Many of our sound effects 672 00:45:47,676 --> 00:45:50,036 Speaker 1: are from Harry Janett Junior and the Star Ganette Foundation. 673 00:45:50,316 --> 00:45:53,916 Speaker 1: Our fool Proof players are Barlow, Adamson, Daniel Burger, Jones, 674 00:45:53,996 --> 00:45:57,836 Speaker 1: Jesse Hinson, John Kuntz, Becca A. Lewis and Maurice Emmanuel Parent. 675 00:45:58,316 --> 00:46:00,836 Speaker 1: The last Archive is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. 676 00:46:01,356 --> 00:46:04,316 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Ryan McKittrick in the American Repertory Theater, 677 00:46:04,716 --> 00:46:07,636 Speaker 1: Emily Shulman at Harvard Law School, Alex Allenson at the 678 00:46:07,636 --> 00:46:10,436 Speaker 1: Bridge Sound and Stage, and at Pushkin to Heather Fane, 679 00:46:10,476 --> 00:46:15,116 Speaker 1: Maya Knig, Carly Migliori, Emily Rustick, Maggie Taylor, and Jacob Weisberg. 680 00:46:15,516 --> 00:46:19,596 Speaker 1: Our research assistants are Michelle Gaw, Olivia Oldham, Henrietta Riley, 681 00:46:19,636 --> 00:46:23,076 Speaker 1: Olive Ruskin Kutz, and Emily Spector. Particular thanks to the 682 00:46:23,156 --> 00:46:26,796 Speaker 1: National Archives and the Sophia Smith Collection at Smith College. 683 00:46:27,316 --> 00:46:28,156 Speaker 1: I'm Jill Lapour.