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Speaker 1: Three steps. If you can make it under someone's front lawn,

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Speaker 1: your front line is probably sacred. My front line is

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Speaker 1: pretty sacred. I'm on their front liwne. They're okay with it.

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Speaker 1: Next step is make it onto their front porch. You're

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Speaker 1: sitting on their front porch even more of a sacred area,

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Speaker 1: and you get invited into their living room and their

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Speaker 1: kitchen for lunch or breakfast or dinner. As a police

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Speaker 1: officer on shift, on shift, I've had many good candid yams,

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Speaker 1: some Thanksgiving dinner, a Coke zero, which is my drink

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Speaker 1: of choice, and so.

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Speaker 2: On shift, you would developing up relationships. So they'd say,

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Speaker 2: come in and have lunch with me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and how many if you see a police officer

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Speaker 1: walk into a house, Yeah, there's something kind of You're

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Speaker 1: not getting ready to sit down and have a big

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Speaker 1: plate of food. You're usually getting ready to walk out

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Speaker 1: with someone in handcuffs. Now, like I said, front yard first,

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Speaker 1: still front ports, and then come on in your family.

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Speaker 1: Now we're gonna feed you.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to an army of normal folks. I'm Bill Courtney.

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Speaker 2: I'm a normal guy. I'm a husband, a father, an entrepreneur,

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Speaker 2: and I'm a football coach in Inner City Memphis, and

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Speaker 2: the last part unintentionally led to an oscar for the

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Speaker 2: film about our football team. It's called Undefeated. I believe

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Speaker 2: our country's problems will never be solved by a bunch

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Speaker 2: of fancy people and nice suits talking big words that

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Speaker 2: nobody understands on CNN and Fox. Rather an army of

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Speaker 2: normal folks US, just you and me deciding hey, I

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Speaker 2: can help. That's what Tommy Norman, the voice we just heard,

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Speaker 2: has done. He's been called the Michael Jordan of community policing,

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Speaker 2: and Tommy's radical love for his community of North Little Rock,

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Speaker 2: Arkansas has led him to accidentally become the most famous

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Speaker 2: police officer the entire United States, with two point two

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Speaker 2: million followers on Facebook and a million on Instagram. But

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Speaker 2: as you're about to see, Tommy never sought fame and

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Speaker 2: it's definitely not his purpose on this earth. Let's get

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Speaker 2: started right after these brief messages from our general sponsors,

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Speaker 2: Tommy Norman, it is a honor to meet you, buddy.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being here now.

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Speaker 1: I'm honored to be here to meet you, coach. I

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Speaker 1: really do appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: And it's I've been looking forward to hanging out with

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Speaker 2: you and learning more about you for sometime now. When

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Speaker 2: I heard that Alex and the production team booked you,

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Speaker 2: I was like, I can't wait to talk to this cat,

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Speaker 2: because You've got to screw this a little bit, don't you.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I do somewhere.

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Speaker 2: So as you know, this is an army of normal

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Speaker 2: folks and there's not much. I mean, you're as normal

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Speaker 2: as they come. And I want our listeners to know

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Speaker 2: a little bit about you. So tell me about Tommy

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Speaker 2: the young man. Where Tommy comes from, how Tommy grow up?

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Speaker 1: So North Little Rock, Arkansas. Little Rock is the capital

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Speaker 1: city of the state, around two hundred thousand population north

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Speaker 1: of the Rock. It is just north of Little Rock,

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Speaker 1: and it's around sixty seven thousand.

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Speaker 2: Is it a suburb? Would you consider it? Would you

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Speaker 2: consider it high end, blue collar?

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Speaker 1: So it's not a suburb, it's its own, separate municipality.

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Speaker 1: I would say blue collar, high end, impoverished areas, all

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Speaker 1: that mixed into one city. Really, Yes, of seventy thousand, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: So born and raised in North Rock, Arkansas, and six

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Speaker 1: sisters and two brothers, and I'm the youngest. I have

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Speaker 1: a twin sister and bill. For as far back as

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Speaker 1: I can remember, my mom always instilled in us to give,

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Speaker 1: whether that was to give to someone that didn't look

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Speaker 1: like us, someone that needed to pair of shoes or

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Speaker 1: shirt off of your back, just to be nice to people.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I followed that model my entire life.

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Speaker 1: I learned from the best. Who is my mom? And

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Speaker 1: she's actually still here. Six you said, six, six sisters,

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Speaker 1: two brothers, nine of you, Yes, nine including six brothers

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Speaker 1: and you nine nine.

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Speaker 2: Yes, your mom has been given one thing for years.

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Speaker 2: That's birth, Yes, good grief and she what was it?

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Speaker 2: She what?

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Speaker 1: She'd also adopted one of my sisters, Kathy, So Kathy

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Speaker 1: is included in that in that sixth So she has

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Speaker 1: eight kids and then she sees Kathy and she had

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Speaker 1: legally adopts Kathy. And but when you talk about love

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Speaker 1: and loving people, my mom is just the definition of that.

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Speaker 1: And I learned from the best, and that's what I've

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Speaker 1: been doing my entire life.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, did you die Dad? Did he make

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Speaker 2: a lot of money? He was.

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Speaker 1: He worked in carpentry kind of you know, worked with

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Speaker 1: lumber and wood, and he was really good with his hands.

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Speaker 1: He was a foreman, at a construction company, and he

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Speaker 1: would go around and kind of check on construction sites.

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Speaker 1: And he worked hard, really hard to help support the family.

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Speaker 2: But with nine kids, I mean you couldn't have I

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Speaker 2: guess you would consider yourself blue.

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Speaker 1: Collar, yes, absolutely blue collar. Yes, my mom we didn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot. She had to make, you know, money stretch,

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Speaker 1: food stretch. But I mean we've all grown up to

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Speaker 1: be I think, productive citizens back in central Arkansas, and

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Speaker 1: we've all remained humble.

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Speaker 2: So you must shared rooms.

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Speaker 1: Yes, we slept sometimes two and three to a room.

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Speaker 1: My dad did add on to the house. Now, at

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Speaker 1: one point we had one bathroom.

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Speaker 2: A carpenter at least can make the house.

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Speaker 1: So at one point we had one bathroom. And you

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Speaker 1: know you're taking turns. I remember by the time.

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Speaker 2: I got how many of you were in the house.

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Speaker 1: There were nine of us in the house with one bathroom.

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Speaker 1: Until my dad had to get up at three in

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Speaker 1: the morning get ready to go to school. Or if

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Speaker 1: I was the last in the bathroom, you had all

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Speaker 1: the fumes of hairspray and makeup everywhere. And you're right,

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Speaker 1: so get up early to beat your sisters to the

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Speaker 1: bathroom where you wait till the last.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it spray on that out of your hand, say

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Speaker 2: you can breathe. I remember those days that equal that

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Speaker 2: would kill somebody. Graduate from what Old Main.

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Speaker 1: It was Old Main High School back then in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety and so nineteen ninety I graduated. And at the time,

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Speaker 1: I'm a huge Michael Jordan fan. Still today love Michael Jordans.

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Speaker 1: So I'm thinking I want to be the next Michael Jordan.

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Speaker 1: I'm dribbling on basketball everywhere, dribbling with my left hand

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Speaker 1: because I'm right handed. If I went to the store,

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Speaker 1: I went to the rec center, you know I've got

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Speaker 1: a basketball. I would go out to Burns Park, It's

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Speaker 1: a big park in north of the Rock, and it

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Speaker 1: would be dark. So that turned the light switch on

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Speaker 1: to the to the light pole that illuminated the basketball court.

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Speaker 1: By Michael Jordan Posters magazines. Michael Jordan got a lot

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Speaker 1: of my money. It still gets something today. So when

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Speaker 1: I remember I tried out for the high school basketball

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Speaker 1: team at o Main High School, I made the first cut.

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Speaker 1: Coach Gary Goss was gonna make two cuts. I didn't

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Speaker 1: make the second cut. But what was so cool about

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Speaker 1: coach GOSSI is he knew how much I loved basketball

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Speaker 1: that he said I could be the statman for the team.

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Speaker 1: So I'm there with the clipboard keeping stats, and I

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Speaker 1: can picture this coach because you know, when the basketball

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Speaker 1: team gets ready to run out of the locker room

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Speaker 1: on to the court, I was the lead man with

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Speaker 1: the clipboard. I led the basketball team on to the court.

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Speaker 1: If I was going to be the next Michael Jordan

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Speaker 1: on the basketball court, let me be the best stat man.

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Speaker 1: Let me either be the Michael Jordan or the community.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to just to be the best, because to me,

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Speaker 1: Michael Jordan was the best. He gave it all, his

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Speaker 1: aulid everything that he did. My head is bald. You

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Speaker 1: see a shiny bald head. True story, coach, true story.

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Speaker 1: I shaved my today because of Michael Jordan because he

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Speaker 1: pretty much had a bald head some of his career.

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Speaker 2: So I think it's safe to say you're a huge

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Speaker 2: Michael Jordan fav.

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Speaker 1: Not the biggest, but pretty big. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, did something in your childhood or did an occasion

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Speaker 2: in your life what inspired you to be a police officer.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a great question and I love telling the story.

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Speaker 1: So my uncle Don Wooton was a chief of police

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Speaker 1: in a small town in Arkansas called Hot Springs Village. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so Hot Springs.

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Speaker 2: That's where the horse track is, Yes, Oakland, Oakland, Yes,

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Speaker 2: so Hot Springs Village. Actually interesting side note, I think

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Speaker 2: didn't the didn't like the Chicago New York mob used

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Speaker 2: to hang out in Hot Springs, Arkansas.

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Speaker 1: I am very impressed. Yes, yes, a not a lot

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Speaker 1: of people know about that, but I mean it was

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Speaker 1: like before Vegas. It was a big mob stop. And

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Speaker 1: I believe that Babe Ruth even visited Hot Springs once.

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Speaker 2: And and I think I think there's supposedly uh canals

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Speaker 2: or or like tunnels built through some of the that

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Speaker 2: the that the mob built the hot stuff had to

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Speaker 2: shuttle around. I mean, isn't that right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're correct, you're correct. I don't know a lot

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Speaker 1: of the history behind that, but that is accurate that

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Speaker 1: a lot of the mobsters were there, you know, the gangsters.

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Speaker 1: And and then you know, if you talk about sports,

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Speaker 1: some of the biggest sports figures stopped through there.

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Speaker 2: And because of the Hot Springs themselves, yes, exactly, the

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Speaker 2: water was supposed to be Yeah, make sure something.

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Speaker 1: People still go today and they get gallons of waters.

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Speaker 1: They'll come from all over the US just to get

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Speaker 1: some of that Hot Springs water and take it back

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Speaker 1: with them, some of the purest water ever.

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Speaker 2: So crazy.

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Speaker 1: All right, So your uncle uncle Don police, he was

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Speaker 1: a chief of police in Hot Springs village. And I

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Speaker 1: remember one summer visiting my uncle. Family reunion was pretty

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Speaker 1: much every summer at his house, and he had on

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Speaker 1: this uniform that was no wrinkles pressed, and he had

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Speaker 1: on his shiny police boots, and he wore a leather

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Speaker 1: gun belt and anytime he would walk around or get

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Speaker 1: out of the seat or get up and move, his

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Speaker 1: leather gum belt would squeak. And I thought the squeaky

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Speaker 1: leather gun belt was the coolest thing ever. I don't

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Speaker 1: know why. Yeah, I know, I.

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Speaker 2: Think anybody listening can identify with that noise, that that

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Speaker 2: patent shiny black leather and when it rubs on something,

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Speaker 2: it does that squeaking on it squeaks. Loved that.

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Speaker 1: I just I don't know why. Today, but even today

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Speaker 1: I can picture my uncle Don, and you know he's

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Speaker 1: not here anymore. But if he walked, I didn't say

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Speaker 1: a word because I wanted to hear that leather gum

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Speaker 1: belt squeak to me. The squeak meant, all right, this

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Speaker 1: is my uncle. He's a chief of police of this town.

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Speaker 1: It's a pretty cool experience to see him. That was

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons I want to be a police officer.

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Speaker 1: But I never thought that I had what it took

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Speaker 1: to be a police officer, because back then, all I

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Speaker 1: really knew was police officers pulled people over, they wrote

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Speaker 1: people tickets, and they took people to jail. When I

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Speaker 1: told some of my close friends of my family that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to apply to be a police officer in

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Speaker 1: North of the Rock, some of them weren't as support

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Speaker 1: because they thought that if I became a police officer,

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Speaker 1: it would take away what I was my entire life,

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Speaker 1: and that was loving and giving. So in early nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight, I see that there is an opening to

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Speaker 1: be a Northrop police officer. Now, back then, Coach, it's newspapers,

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Speaker 1: the print paper that's where you saw openings of jobs.

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Speaker 1: Now it's all live. Yeah, they're classified. So I apply

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Speaker 1: and not thinking i'd get a call. So I apply

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Speaker 1: and they call me in for an interview. This kind

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Speaker 1: of resembles the interview table. I'm sitting here. There's three

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Speaker 1: officers over here, and they asked me a question, why

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Speaker 1: do you want to be a police officer? And I

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Speaker 1: paused because the answer that I had tucked away in

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Speaker 1: my heart was I want to love people. I want

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Speaker 1: to care for people. I want to part my police

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Speaker 1: car and get out at given the opportunity and just

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Speaker 1: talk to people. I want to get on people's front

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Speaker 1: lawns or front porches and ultimately going to their homes

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Speaker 1: if enough trust is built. So the clock is ticking.

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Speaker 1: It's quiet in there, and I'm afraid if I give

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Speaker 1: that answer, which I think maybe was a cheesy answer,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to hire me, because they're not looking

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Speaker 1: for a guy that's trying to get out here and

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Speaker 1: care about people. So the answer I gave them was

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Speaker 1: I want to pull people over, I want to write

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Speaker 1: people tickets. I want to take people to jail. All right,

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Speaker 1: that's the answer I gave them. A got the job,

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Speaker 1: well hold on. So so finished that, and I kept

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Speaker 1: getting all these calls physical fitness tests. Got a call

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Speaker 1: or a letter in the mail, you passed it. Background check. Now,

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Speaker 1: background checks for police officers. They talk to everybody. They

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Speaker 1: talked to the neighbors that you're living next to. Now,

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Speaker 1: the neighbors you lived previously to, they talked to your job,

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Speaker 1: and now if they didn't do it back then. But

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Speaker 1: I want to include this for anyone that's listening, not

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Speaker 1: just law enforcement, but any line of work. They check

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Speaker 1: your social media's that's that's a big one.

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Speaker 2: Talk to kids, kids. I've coached my own kids that

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Speaker 2: one stupid post can screw up a lifetime of opportunity

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Speaker 2: if you're not careful. Exactly.

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Speaker 1: And so at the time, I'm working at Pinnacle Point

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Speaker 1: Hospital in Little Rock, Arkansas. I'm a mental health worker.

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Speaker 1: It was around April to nineteen ninety eight, and I

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Speaker 1: get a call. It was a police recruiter. Her name

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Speaker 1: was Sergeant Armstrong, and she says, mister Norman, we got

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Speaker 1: good news. You've been hired at the North of Rock

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Speaker 1: Police Department and you need to report June fifteenth. So

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Speaker 1: June fifteenth, nineteen nine of backflips. I was so excited.

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Speaker 1: I was actually in the gym playing basketball with the

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Speaker 1: kids at the hospital and when I hung up that phone,

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Speaker 1: I probably could have dunked that basketball. I was that excited.

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Speaker 2: So what about do I got a question. Was your

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Speaker 2: uncle alive at the time still, yes, Had you spoken

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Speaker 2: to him about what it was like to be a cop?

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Speaker 2: What it was really like. I mean, if you're a

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Speaker 2: I would think, if you're applying and you're really trying

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Speaker 2: to be a cop, you've got this cool resource, a

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Speaker 2: guy that you've idolized since you were a kid. Did

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Speaker 2: you talk to him about I did?

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Speaker 1: He encouraged me, and I struggled with once again, if

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Speaker 1: I put on that uniform, can I still get out

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Speaker 1: and do what I was raised to do? And that's

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Speaker 1: part of that story will come later. But so I

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Speaker 1: was excited. So I called my friends, my family, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I got the job. I'm going to be a police

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Speaker 1: officer in the city that helped raise me. So at

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Speaker 1: the time, I was a homebody. I was married to

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Speaker 1: my son and my daughter's mom, and I didn't like

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Speaker 1: being away from home. So the police academy I just

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Speaker 1: I was. I don't know, I got homesick a lot.

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Speaker 1: I just think because we were so close as a family,

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Speaker 1: I was so used to being home. I remember I

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Speaker 1: went to Nolan Richardson's basketball camp in favor of Arkansas,

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Speaker 1: and my dad gave me this calling card that had

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Speaker 1: so many minutes on it, and I maxed that thing

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Speaker 1: out within the first day calling back home because I

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Speaker 1: was just I was. I just loved being home. So

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Speaker 1: the police academy was in Camden, Arkansas.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask something, do you There has to be

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Speaker 2: a reason for that, Tommy, And.

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Speaker 1: You're right, and I don't. And I've been asked before,

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Speaker 1: why did you get homesick?

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Speaker 2: Do you still get home sick?

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Speaker 1: No? I'm good now. Yeah, I mean with the platform

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Speaker 1: God has blessed me with, I've traveled all over you

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Speaker 1: and I don't get homesick. I don't know if I was,

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Speaker 1: if I was younger. I will say this, and this

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Speaker 1: may come off kind of funny, but it's not. But

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Speaker 1: my mom would always nurture us, even as adults today.

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Speaker 1: If I told my mom, Mom, I'm getting my tee

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Speaker 1: clean next week, she'd want to be there at the

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Speaker 1: chair watch me get my teeth clean. So I don't

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Speaker 1: tell her when I'm getting my tee clean.

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Speaker 2: Nine kids, and she's still she's a special person.

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Speaker 1: She is and she's gonna Mom, if you're listening, I

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Speaker 1: love you. I think she's the reason I got homesick.

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Speaker 1: I've never really been asked that question and have to

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Speaker 1: answer it, but I really feel like.

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Speaker 2: You have to answer it. That's a pretty record. I

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Speaker 2: have to answer all questions.

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Speaker 1: And I will. I feel like that the love that

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Speaker 1: my mom showed us, and she loved us so much,

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to be too far away from her.

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Speaker 1: You felt a real sense of longing at home, and

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Speaker 1: I still do. I'm still a mama's boy, fifty years old.

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Speaker 2: Coach Well, and the thing is, I think about, you know,

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Speaker 2: nine kids in one bathroom. You're either gonna be really

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Speaker 2: kind and supportive and close, or you're gonna hate each

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Speaker 2: other's guts, because that's a lot of selflessness, fighting over

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Speaker 2: just your little corner of space in the world. And

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Speaker 2: a home like that. What was what was the dynamic

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Speaker 2: at home going up?

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Speaker 1: Well, there were a few knockdowns. There were there was

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Speaker 1: a few knockdown dragouts. My mo mom had this brown

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Speaker 1: leather belt, oh boy, and I'm glad that leather belt

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Speaker 1: just went missing. I won't I won't say what happened

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Speaker 1: to the leather belt. But if you ever re late

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Speaker 1: getting home, if you ever smarted off, if you didn't

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Speaker 1: say yes, ma'am ory, yes, sir, And you never said, huh,

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Speaker 1: you don't say hung around my mom, yep, And she

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Speaker 1: would whoop that.

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Speaker 2: We uh.

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Speaker 1: Not even but it would the belt would come across

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Speaker 1: your face, I mean whatever she could get right. Thank

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Speaker 1: god we didn't call Child Protective Services back because but

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Speaker 1: my mom, that's how we ended up the way we

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Speaker 1: are today.

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you something. I've got four kids. They

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Speaker 2: are now twenty seven, twenty six, twenty five, and twenty four,

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Speaker 2: meaning they were one, two, three, and four. Now there

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Speaker 2: wasn't nine of them, but there are four and four years.

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Speaker 2: And I was working growing my business, coaching football, and

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Speaker 2: so I was seventy eighty hours a week working. Now,

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Speaker 2: when I was home, I was home, and I wasn't

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying I was a dad that wasn't there,

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Speaker 2: but Lisa was alone with kids a lot, and with

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Speaker 2: four kids that close to each other. You know your

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Speaker 2: mama had a belt, Well, my wife had a wooden spoon,

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Speaker 2: and my wife kept a wooden spoon in her person

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Speaker 2: all times. She had three wooden spoons. One was on

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Speaker 2: the night stand, one was at her person all times.

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Speaker 2: She kept one under advisor of her car. And you

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Speaker 2: might not like this as a safety patrol officer running

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Speaker 2: around seeing people drive like this, But my wife could

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Speaker 2: drive with her left hand doing sixty down the interstate

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Speaker 2: and smack kids in the rear back seat of a

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Speaker 2: suburban with a wooden spoon and not vesa beat. I

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Speaker 2: have seen. I have seen my family drive up in

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Speaker 2: my driveway and all four kids are kind of plastered

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Speaker 2: up against the sidewalls of the back of the thing

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Speaker 2: to avoid the reach of the wooden spoon. So I

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Speaker 2: guess I could identify with your mom. When she'd had enough.

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Speaker 2: She probably looked like an octopus with that butt leather

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Speaker 2: belt well y all scattering like hell too.

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Speaker 1: And then I learned to put the book in the

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Speaker 1: back of my pants. But now you just told the

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Speaker 1: story about Lisa. I think I'd prefer the leather belt

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Speaker 1: over that wooden spoon.

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Speaker 2: That wouldn't spoon. I mean, I could hear that thing

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Speaker 2: slapping two rooms away. So yeah, so it's followed by

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Speaker 2: some squalling by one or four kids. Yeah, But at.

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Speaker 1: The end of the day, she loved us, and when

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Speaker 1: we woke up the next morning, she loved us. And

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Speaker 1: I feel like thinking about it right now, sitting here

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Speaker 1: across from you, that that's probably one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: that I didn't like being away from home, because I

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Speaker 1: just counted so much on my mom and my family

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Speaker 1: and acceptance. Well, yes, we'll be right back. So I'm

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Speaker 1: at the police academy. It's a twelve week academy. Halfway through,

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Speaker 1: I give into the homesickness. I pack up, and I'm

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Speaker 1: driving back home. I just told the instructors at the

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Speaker 1: police academy when my kids were sick. I lied, and

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Speaker 1: halfway back home, I call my mom, said, Mom, I

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Speaker 1: want to get a job that requires me not to travel.

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Speaker 1: I can go back to work at Pinnacle Point, I

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Speaker 1: can be a mental health worker, go to nurse. I

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Speaker 1: thought about being a nurse. I go to nursing school.

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Speaker 1: I'll make it work. She said, pull over right now.

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Speaker 1: She said. You want to always make your family proud.

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Speaker 1: You've always want to be a police officer. You want

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Speaker 1: to make your uncle Don proud. She said, You're turned around.

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Speaker 1: You're going back to the police academy.

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Speaker 2: And I did.

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Speaker 1: I went back and crawled back in bed.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting that you caught your mom and not your wife.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, exactly. My wife may have said, Okay, come

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Speaker 1: on back home, right, But there's only one mom out there,

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Speaker 1: and that woman knew I was going to regret that

399
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Speaker 1: decision and I went back. And you know the story

400
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 1: now behind that is really really powerful.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's a real turning point in your life,

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00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,399
Speaker 2: because if your mom had said, no, baby, I love you,

403
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Speaker 2: come on home, your life's trajectory would be one hundred

404
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Speaker 2: and eight degrees effort than it is today.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, Coach that if I would have gave

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Speaker 1: into that homesickness and kept on traveling and not called

407
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Speaker 1: my mom until the next day and there's no going back. Then,

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Speaker 1: you know, if I say, Okay, I want to come back,

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Speaker 1: they're not going to let me back at the police academy, No,

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Speaker 1: you bolted, right, and would I thought, Well, then the

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Speaker 1: next days and weeks, when I didn't follow my dream

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Speaker 1: and I see these police officers and these police cars, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to be in that police car. I want

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Speaker 1: to at least see what kind of difference can I

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Speaker 1: make in North of Rock, Arkansas with the badge in

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Speaker 1: a police car and more importantly, with a heart.

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Speaker 2: You know, one of the purposes of the show is

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Speaker 2: to obviously one of them is to tell compelling stories

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Speaker 2: and hopefully, over time literally build an army of normal folks,

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Speaker 2: just normal people doing extraordinary things of their community that

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Speaker 2: maybe has an opportunity to change the trajectory of our

422
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Speaker 2: culture today. Now that's a moon mission. I mean, this

423
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 2: is a podcast where we talked to interesting people and

424
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,360
Speaker 2: to interesting stories, and I have no idea of it's

425
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 2: going to have the legs or power to actually create

426
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Speaker 2: a movement, but it would be great if it did,

427
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: and that movement would be shepherded by people like you

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Speaker 2: and others whose stories we tell. But it's so important

429
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Speaker 2: that people listening to us understand when we're talking about

430
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Speaker 2: an army and normal folk, we're not talking about people

431
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Speaker 2: born into wealthy families who have all kinds of advantages

432
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Speaker 2: and have the nice suits and live in the big

433
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 2: houses and appear on Fox and CNN and all of that.

434
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 2: You know, because those people have been in charge for decades,

435
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 2: and I think we can look at largely their success

436
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 2: in our society and say that their efforts have been

437
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 2: woefully inadequate. Our government a lot of places that I

438
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 2: just I get so frustrated with all the power and

439
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 2: ability that ends up doing a lot of self serving

440
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 2: for them work and leaves a lot of folks wanting.

441
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 2: So for an army and normal folks to work, we

442
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,919
Speaker 2: have to establish it's an army of normal folks. And

443
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 2: to hear your story to grow up with one bathroom

444
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 2: and a mom who loves you and a blue collar

445
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 2: dad who you know by all practical purposes, Tommy, you

446
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 2: were poor. You just didn't know it because that's all

447
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 2: you knew. And to hear that you wanted to be

448
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: a cop because of your uncle in Hot Springs, and

449
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 2: then you finally get the opportunity, and halfway through it

450
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: you pack up your car and you leave because you're homesick.

451
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: I mean, those are just real struggles. But that's what

452
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,479
Speaker 2: normal people go through, isn't it. Yes, it's just a

453
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 2: normal dude. Yes, just a normal dude with your own

454
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 2: insecurities and your own homesickness and everything else. You side

455
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 2: a dream, but you're just a normal dude. And the

456
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 2: point is we all struggle with weird stuff. And your mom,

457
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 2: who knew you best, said pull your drawers up and

458
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 2: get your back to camp, exactly what she said, and

459
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: change the trajectory of your life because you listen to

460
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: your mom to overcome your own insecurities. I mean, I

461
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 2: think that's a beautiful thing, and I think it says

462
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 2: it should say to everybody listening to this right now

463
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: has insecurities. Because we're human beings. We have them. Everybody

464
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: has something they have to overcome. And sometimes it's just

465
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: as much as putting your head down to the side

466
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna get this head on and so that's

467
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 2: what you did.

468
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 1: And code something else to add on to my homesickness

469
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: was I kind of always question as a police officer,

470
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: can I even make a difference, because you know, so

471
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: if I'm leaving because I'm homesick, I'd already been questioning,

472
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: you know, can police officers do more than righte tickets

473
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: and take people to jail? And I didn't know yet

474
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: because I haven't worked one minute on the street. So

475
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: I gave into those insecurities until my mom.

476
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you let the doubt, you let the doubt cloudshit.

477
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: So homesickness and the icing on the cake that not

478
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: I started to drive back home was okay. I've kind

479
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: of questioned, anyway, is this occupation? Is it going to

480
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: change you? I don't want it to change who I am.

481
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: My mom taught me our entire life, you better not

482
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: forget where you came from. So I had two confirmations

483
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: in my mind. I'm homesick and maybe this is not

484
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: what I want to do anyway.

485
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 2: Because I may not be able to be me with

486
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 2: this badge on exactly, which is what we're going to

487
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,959
Speaker 2: get to in a little Yes, So I guess you

488
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 2: turn around because your mom had told you to, and

489
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 2: she still had a belt at that time, even though

490
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 2: you've grown.

491
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: Eggs, she would have still used it police officer or not?

492
00:25:58,920 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: Would she would still let me?

493
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 2: And you go back and you graduate, Yes, And what

494
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 2: year do you become a full fledged policeman?

495
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,400
Speaker 1: So nineteen ninety eight, graduated from the academy, probably towards

496
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 1: the end of the year. And when you graduate from

497
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 1: the academy, you come back and you train for six

498
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 1: months with a field training officer.

499
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: Meaning you're riding.

500
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: You're riding with someone and eventually they'll let you drive

501
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: and they kind of monitor you and observe you. And

502
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 1: after six months, here's a key, here's a police car.

503
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: You're on midnight shift. Your day's offer Tuesday Wednesday. Now

504
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: I'm excited I finally get to get out in the

505
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: community and the police.

506
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: I have a question because I really don't know, and

507
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: I imagine most ton't. I've actually always wondered this. So

508
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 2: when they say, here's your key, here's your police car,

509
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 2: here's your shift, go, do you have a like a

510
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,199
Speaker 2: set coordinates of a part of a city that you

511
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: quote patrol or do you can you go anywhere?

512
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: Now you're assigned what we call a certain beat.

513
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 2: A beat, beat beat, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah beat.

514
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: So the beat that I was assigned to was the

515
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: beat that I wanted. I grew up in North Rock

516
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: and it was what we call downtown North Rock in

517
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: some areas that are impovers, families that are poor, families

518
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: that have really never been given a chance.

519
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: I gotta believe that's one of the more danger series. Though.

520
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: Yes it's definitely not a walk in the park. But

521
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: that's what you want, what I wanted, That's what I wanted.

522
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 1: But I'm a midnight shift coach. Everybody's asleep. I want

523
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: people that are awake, people that I can interact with.

524
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: So you wanted that, you wanted that beat, but you

525
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 2: didn't want that shift.

526
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: With seniority you're not going to get the hours you want.

527
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,479
Speaker 1: So this is where I hope people listening to this

528
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: pay real close attention because it gets even more powerful.

529
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: So after a couple of years, I'm on second shift,

530
00:27:58,720 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: still not with the best days.

531
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 2: I'm at second.

532
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: Chef two pm to ten pm.

533
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 2: Okay, love it.

534
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: There's cars, there's people outside, there's kids. So what I

535
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: do initially is I part my police car one time

536
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: allowed and I would walk different streets and talk to people.

537
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 1: Some people would wait back, some people would engage with me.

538
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: Some people would turn their backs and go inside their houses.

539
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,959
Speaker 1: There's this new police officer assigned to our neighborhood. What

540
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: is he doing walking down the street. What is he

541
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: doing wanting to say hi to us?

542
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 2: I think the initial reaction of anybody is when you

543
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 2: see a cop walking down the street, something bad's happened or.

544
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 1: About to happen, exactly exactly. And so I was a

545
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: little discouraged. But I'm telling myself, Okay, you finished the academy,

546
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: this is what you wanted to do. You get back

547
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: out the next day, in the next week, and the

548
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: next month and the next year.

549
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 2: And I did.

550
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: I remember one evening right before dark, I part my

551
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: police car on a church parking lot and I start walking.

552
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: This is probably within the first five years of my career.

553
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: And after a few minutes, I looked to the right,

554
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: there's a line of kids on the right. I looked

555
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: to the left. There's a line of kids on the left.

556
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,719
Speaker 1: And we're walking like an army. And I'm smiling, thinking

557
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: this is working. In two thousand and five, I'm a

558
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: seven year officer. My shift ended at two pm. By

559
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: that time, I was on day shift. A gentleman in

560
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: Little Rock, Arkansas called the police department and said he

561
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: was urgent that he saw me. It couldn't wait, so

562
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: I go over to the Little Rock. This gentleman is homeless.

563
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: He's sitting in front of a payphone at the gas station.

564
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: I sit down next to him. I'm still in uniform.

565
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: Old older. This homeless guy called the police and wanted

566
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 2: to see you.

567
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: Yes, but in Little Rock. I work at North Little Rock.

568
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: Okay, so can you do that? Can you cross?

569
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: Well, I'm off work, you know. I did tell my

570
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: supervisor he I want to go over here and see

571
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: what this guy wants. But yeah, I still in uniform.

572
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: I drive over and I get out and sit down

573
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: next to him, and after five minutes of convers he

574
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: tells me he's a murder suspect inside a homeless camp.

575
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: A week before this, he beat a man to death

576
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: with a piece of two by four and I remember

577
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: seeing the story on the news and they were looking

578
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: for this guy. So I get on my radio, I

579
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: call my dispatch. They call Little Rock police. They're showing

580
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: up within a matter of minutes. And one of the

581
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: first things an officers said when I got out of

582
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: his police cars, how did you find this guy? We've

583
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: been looking for him and he found you. My response

584
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: was I didn't find him, he found me. So they

585
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: lift him up, put him in handcuffs, a very peaceful arrest.

586
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,239
Speaker 1: But I could not let them drive away with this

587
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: guy until I asked him this question. Sir, you never

588
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: met me before. Why do you call me to turn

589
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: yourself in? He said he was afraid that it was

590
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: so exhausting to hide from the police. He asked another

591
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: homeless guy in Little Rock, what can I do that

592
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: homeless guy I don't even know who he is today,

593
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: said call Tommy Norman a north of the Rock, and

594
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: you could surrender with dignitine respect. The moral of that

595
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: story is my reputation solved the murder.

596
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: That's amazing.

597
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: My reputation solved the murder. And it goes back to

598
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: my mom raising me to treat people. I don't care

599
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: if they were different color than I was. They didn't

600
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: have as much as we had. That was confirmation. Thank

601
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: god I turned around and went back to the police academy,

602
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: and thank god I followed my uncle Don's advice. My

603
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: seven years of just being nice to people, not slapping

604
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: handcuffs on people or taking people to jail, but seven

605
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: years of being nice to people took a murder off

606
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: the streets.

607
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 2: Well, let's first of all, it's amazing, probably the first

608
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: murder case ever solved because a cop was sweet. I mean,

609
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: that's phenomenal. But let's talk about the seven years that

610
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: led up to that and the ensuing years of your career. Now,

611
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: which is the extraordinary thing that you have done. Is

612
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: our culture today says that if your let's just be candid,

613
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: if you're black or brown or a minority, that you

614
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 2: know the first thing you do is fear a cop.

615
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 2: You fear that badge, you fear that uniform, You fear

616
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: the police because nothing good happens with the cops, and

617
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: so that that has become a cultural thing. I have

618
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 2: a really really good friend who I coached his sons

619
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: and my sons came up playing football together, and we

620
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: actually coached their like sixth and seventh grade football team

621
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: and in through seventh grade, actually third through seventh grade.

622
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: And the guy played in the NFL, and he is

623
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 2: now a executive with a pharmaceutical company. He lives in

624
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: a really nice suburb of Memphis and a forty five

625
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: hundred square foot house, and his kids go to very

626
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: expensive private schools. I mean, by all practical purposes. He's

627
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: upper end, wealthy cat who's done really really well. And

628
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: he's black and his sons are black, but he's on

629
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: the very high end of the socioeconomic scaling. He and

630
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: I are are tight. We're buddies. And I asked him

631
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: when his oldest son was first driving, you know, how

632
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 2: it was going, and he said, well, you know, he's

633
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 2: going well. His insurance good, he had ninety REX. He's

634
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: doing good. And he said, but I did have to have,

635
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: you know, the talk with him. And I said that,

636
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: what do you mean the talk? And he said, man,

637
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: I forget you're white. And I'm like, what are you

638
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: talking about? I'm white and he said, well to talk

639
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: about how to act if an officer pulls him over.

640
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 2: And I'm like, dude, he's you live out in the suburbs,

641
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: You're driving around a nice car. This kid's got you know,

642
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 2: he's squared away. He's not you know, what's he got

643
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: to be worried about. And he looked at me like

644
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: I was a fool and he said, man, to have

645
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: worked so much in the inner city and to be

646
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: so in tune with what's going on, he said, it

647
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: shocks me how naive you can be sometimes. That's what

648
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: he said to me, and I'm like, what are you

649
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: talking about? He said, my son's black. And he said

650
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: black folks, when they get pulled over by the cops,

651
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: have a lot greater potential to have bad things happen

652
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 2: than new white people. And I said, do you really

653
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: believe that? And he said, I don't believe it. I've

654
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: lived it. And I'm going to tell you. When I

655
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 2: heard that, it really bothered me because I didn't believe it.

656
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: And that kid I've known since he was in third grade. Hell,

657
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 2: he's better mader than my own sons. I'd have traded

658
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: my two kids for that one kid. He was that

659
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: good a kid, you know what I mean, And I

660
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: mean he was. He was a great kid. And I

661
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: couldn't ever imagine him being pulled over and being treated

662
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 2: in a bad way just because he was black. And

663
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: then it happened. He got pulled over, and it was

664
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 2: near the school, and my sons and some of their

665
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: friends saw them get pulled over, and they pulled my

666
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 2: kid's friends pulled over in a parking lot not far

667
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: from where it was, and they got their phones out,

668
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: and all he was doing was he took a turn

669
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 2: without a blinker, and they pulled him over. They made

670
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: him get out, They searched him, They spread him on

671
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: the car and searched them. They looked all through the car,

672
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 2: they went through the truck, asked him not if he

673
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: had anything on him, but said specifically, where you hide

674
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: in your weed, and treated him with and a an

675
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: assumption that was in nowhere near in line with with

676
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: who he was as a kid. And my kids had

677
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 2: been pulled over plenty of times in our suburb and

678
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 2: never asked to do anything but show them their driver's license,

679
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 2: and my kids came home and said, man, it is different,

680
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: and that's heartbreaking to me. And but with that story

681
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: in my consciousness, which I will never forget, I think

682
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: about a white dude who's a cop, park in his

683
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 2: car in a predominantly African American part of North Little

684
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: Rock and walking down the sidewalk. I get what the

685
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 2: the man did seven years later, once you've established a relationship.

686
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 2: But I have to believe that most people are looking

687
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: at you like you were out of your damn mind

688
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: and none of them wanted anything to do with you

689
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: because they were afraid of you because of the reality

690
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 2: of their experience with white police. Now, is what I'm

691
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 2: saying true? Or is what I'm saying sensationalized?

692
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: Now what you're saying is absolutely real life. It happens.

693
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: So I kind of skipped out on day one to two.

694
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 2: I was going to go day one to It's cool.

695
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 2: It would would jump around how did I get there?

696
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 2: But I want to know what it was really like

697
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 2: for you those first six months. Forget everything that we're

698
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 2: going to get to, everything that's happened, because that's inspiring

699
00:37:54,760 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: and beautiful and hopeful. But I'm just from from my

700
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: experience with my children and my children's friends, and what

701
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: I now know to be true that as a person

702
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: who works in the inner city, I still didn't understand it,

703
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 2: and I finally do. I cannot imagine when those people

704
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 2: must thought you were out of your damn mind walking

705
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: up down the sidewalk as a white guy in a uniform,

706
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: and I can't imagine any of them warmed to you.

707
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: There had to have been a first. There had to

708
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 2: have been, you know, and I want to hear about that.

709
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: I want to understand how you broke through that cultural

710
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 2: expectation that you were the enemy.

711
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: I came back. When I say I came back, coach,

712
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: is if I walk through this neighborhood to day, I

713
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: came back the next day. I think coming back and

714
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 1: keeping your promise and being that familiar face is one

715
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 1: of the big ways to kind of slowly but surely

716
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: chip away at these barriers that are between communities of

717
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 1: color and police officers, most specifically white police officers. And

718
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: when I say I come back, is you know, you

719
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: meet a family, and you check on this family every day, and.

720
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: Then what do you mean you literally go up, knock

721
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: on the door and say.

722
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: Oh, you exchange numbers. Even on your day off. You

723
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: call them, Hey, it's officer Norman. How's it going. You

724
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: ask them you.

725
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: Should call people on your day off.

726
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely absolutely. We're family. We're I'll get to how

727
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: we became family. But your family. So you narrow it

728
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: down to one family. Now, I do things in the

729
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 1: masses and big, big numbers, but you narrow it down

730
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: the one. If you can change one family's perception of

731
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,919
Speaker 1: police officers, I think you've done a pretty good job.

732
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: So you want to know where does a dad work,

733
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: where does a mom work, How are the kids doing

734
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: in school? You know, did someone just get married, does

735
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: someone just have a baby. Right, You don't just want

736
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: to know their license plate numbers and their addresses on

737
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: front of their house. You want to know what's behind

738
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: I want people to know what's behind my badge. I

739
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: want to know what's behind that address on that house.

740
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: What was really cool to me is after about the

741
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: first year of being a police officer.

742
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 2: So it did take a year.

743
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: Oh it took a while because guess what, that badge

744
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: is not going to earn you trust and respect. It's not.

745
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: It's not for some people it will, but for people

746
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: in these communities that don't really trust police officers. Your

747
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 1: uniform is not going to cut it, your police car

748
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: is not going to cut it, but your heart will.

749
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 1: And you have to come back. So after the first year,

750
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: this one family, I get invited to a six year

751
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: old's birthday party. This little girl. We were buddies, we

752
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 1: became friends. But guess what I said yes to the invitation.

753
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: You think I wore my uniform. No, I don't want

754
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: people just to see me in my uniform. I wore

755
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: a pair of Levi's and a button down shirt and

756
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: I had the best time. You talked party like at

757
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: their house or sea.

758
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: It was at their house.

759
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: And if a police in your beat, in my beat.

760
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: But let me say this, there were people looking at

761
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: me because, first of all, Officer Norman showed up at

762
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: a birthday party and blue jeans and a button down shirt.

763
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: And just like you talked about, Coach, I've been to

764
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: multiple birthday parties, now, visits to children's hospital. I've been

765
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,879
Speaker 1: the wedding, spoke at a few funerals. They forget when

766
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: you actually wear your uniform to one of these places,

767
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 1: you're still a police officer. Officer Norman and you talked about.

768
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: So instead of seeing the badge first, now they see Tommas.

769
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: And that was my goal. That has been my goal

770
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: since since day one. And I don't want to say

771
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 1: no that all these invitations you get, I think as

772
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: a police officer, you need to honor most of those

773
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: because if you go above and beyond and you're showing

774
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: up at birthday parties and people are sick and they

775
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: want you there, that is a humbling and a huge privilege.

776
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 2: Have you ever pulled up in those early years, You

777
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 2: ever pulled up on kids and they.

778
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: Just run off? Yes, run run from you?

779
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: What was your reaction to them?

780
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: First of all, chase them?

781
00:41:58,800 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: Really?

782
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: I mean if they're running from you for a reason.

783
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: I didn't know exactly what you were talking about. But no,

784
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 1: as far as as far as kids being scared, okay, yea.

785
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: So I have another story. I'm getting excited. I need

786
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: to slow down. So there's a story of a young

787
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: man and his siblings that are at a playground and

788
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: they see me coming and they run inside their apartment

789
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 1: public housing, and I see the door that this young

790
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: man goes in. When you say young men age eight

791
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: or nine, okay, and they bolt to their apartment and

792
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: they got in that back door fast. Now you know

793
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: why they've been taught when they see the cops to

794
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: haul properly. So I see the door, I get out

795
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: of my police car and I knock on the door.

796
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: It's a metal door, so it's a loud knock, and

797
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 1: the mom comes to the door. Is everything okay?

798
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 2: Off?

799
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: So Norman, not really? Because I'm driving down the street

800
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: and your kids run into their apartment and I just

801
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 1: want to know why. And she called the kids.

802
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: You just said why, Yeah, I just want to know why,

803
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: not in an accusing one. No, you really wondered, And I.

804
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 1: Told her that they haven't done anything wrong, and she

805
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: called them. There were four kids. She called them up

806
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: to the door and offer them, wants to know why

807
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: you ran from him? And they're scared of police officers.

808
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: That bothered me. That bothered me because I want them

809
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: to run. My goal has been my entire career is

810
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: I want kids to run to my police car, not

811
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: run from my police car. Now what could I have done?

812
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: I could have kept driving. Oh those kids ran for me.

813
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: I don't know why, but I stopped. It helped that

814
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 1: I saw what apartment they went in and they told

815
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 1: me they kept it as real as they could. As kids,

816
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: we're scared of police officers. So I made it a

817
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: point to.

818
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: What did you say to him? Did you say? Did you?

819
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I can imagine kneeling down, getting on one

820
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 2: knee on their level and looking at the eye and say, hey,

821
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,359
Speaker 2: I'm officer Norman and don't be afraid of me. I'm

822
00:43:58,360 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 2: here for you.

823
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: I mean, what did you It's one thing to say that,

824
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: but it's another thing to show that and prove that.

825
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: So I remember the address, and I kept coming back

826
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 1: and visiting the kids. Whenever they saw something about kids

827
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: is they remember the numbers to a police car. So

828
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 1: the I have a every police car has a number

829
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: on their police unit. Kids know me so well down

830
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: to the number of my police car, and they remember that.

831
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: Now that's that's pretty cool if you think about it.

832
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 2: That is.

833
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: And so you know these kids now it's been a

834
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,479
Speaker 1: few years and I still see them. But my goal

835
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: was it's one thing to say you care about someone

836
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: and not to be scared, but you've got to show it.

837
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: You've got to show it.

838
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: And so.

839
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 1: That that was just a story of I don't kids,

840
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 1: you just keep going by, keep going by. Some of

841
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: the things I do. And you know, sometimes people will

842
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 1: kind of give me a hard time. But in the

843
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: trunk of my police car, it's toys, it's peanut butter crackers,

844
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: it's pop tarts, it's it's it's squeezed, it's it's not

845
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's not swat gear, it's not you know,

846
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 1: battering rams. You know, it's still.

847
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: It just dawned on me. You are you almost like

848
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I know you wear a gun on patrol.

849
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 2: But the old Dady gripped the show, the sheriff that

850
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: wouldn't ever wear a gun on his holster. I mean,

851
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 2: you're carrying around stuff most cops don't care.

852
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: Round I mean it. And you know, my skin is

853
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: thicker today after twenty five years in law enforcement, but

854
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,919
Speaker 1: early in my career, you know, people are he's giving

855
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: out pop tarts and peanut butter crackers. Absolutely, I am

856
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: for a few reasons. Sometimes that's all the food the

857
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: kids will get that day. And secondly, if this kid's

858
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: five years old, when he's twenty five years old, he's

859
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: going to remember that exchange from my hand to his

860
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: peanut butter crackers. It filled his belly and it made

861
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 1: him happy.

862
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: Well, that concludes part one of our conversation with Officer Norman,

863
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 2: and I really hope you'll listen to part two that's

864
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 2: now available. Trust me, this interview just keeps getting better.

865
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: But if you don't, make sure you join the Army

866
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Speaker 2: of Normal Folks at normalfolks dot us and sign up

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Speaker 2: to become a member of our movement. It only takes

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00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 2: committing to doing one new thing this year to help others.

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Speaker 2: And there will be a ton of awesome ideas on

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Speaker 2: this podcast when the folks were featuring, and some of

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00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 2: them will resonate with you deeply and others may not

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00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 2: at all, and that's okay. We're all called to do

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Speaker 2: different things with our different talents. By signing up, you'll

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Speaker 2: also receive a weekly email with a short episode summary

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Speaker 2: in case you happen to miss an episode or prefer

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Speaker 2: reading about our incredible guests. Together, with each of us

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Speaker 2: doing what we can, we can change this country. And

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Speaker 2: it starts with you. Lent it game