1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 2: Shuck Bloody bodycam emerges after a jealous and enthusiologist a 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: medical doctor, forces his nuclear engineer wife to a deadly cliff. 4 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: When you see. 5 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 3: This BODYCM, you're gonna do a backflip. I mean, see, Grace, 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 3: this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for 7 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 3: being with us. 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 4: We heard her treaming he's covered in blood and she 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 4: was crawling. She's covered in blood. She hear us though, 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 4: did she have a weapon? Didn't he have a weapon? 11 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:42,520 Speaker 4: She didn't have a weapon. 12 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 5: Okay, he's a rock. Okay, Hi, I'm currently beating a 13 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 5: tract on help of Polly Tuca where there's a man 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 5: trying to kill her. 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 4: She's let all over her face. Where is this dare Polly? 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 6: Okay? 17 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: Okay, So. 18 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 6: Look out on the Polypooka hike. 19 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 5: And he's he's currently attacking her. 20 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 4: Okay, where how far is the hike guards. 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 6: The entrance fire? We're probably like five minutes into the 22 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:16,759 Speaker 6: hike really quickly. 23 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 3: In fact, the hikers that call nine one one, they 24 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 3: see the antesiologist jealous husband. They look in his eyes 25 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 3: and they're so afraid that he might try to kill 26 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 3: them that they take off to call nine to one 27 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 3: one they run away from him. Take a look at 28 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 3: this photo straight out to veteran trial lawyer Eric Fattus, 29 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 3: founder of law Offices of Eric Fattus, former felony prosecutor. 30 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: You think there's any coming back from that? Let me 31 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: see that photo again. 32 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 7: Please Now that when you look at it, your stomach 33 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 7: kind of turns. Right, that's a grotesque site. You have 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 7: this bright red blood coming off of her face. Certainly 35 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 7: the jury is going to have a visceral reaction when 36 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 7: they see that. It just shows how harrowing and physical 37 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 7: and violent this altercation was. I think defense is going 38 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 7: to try to argue that this was self defense, but 39 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 7: you know that's a bit of a tall order when 40 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 7: you look at that photo. 41 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 3: Okay, is correct me if I'm wrong, But aren't you 42 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 3: the veteran defense attorney, and that's what you're going to say, Yeah, 43 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 3: that's really bad. That is not helping the client. 44 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 8: Well, yeah, that wouldn't be my argument. 45 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 7: It would be something along the lines of, you know, hey, 46 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 7: there was this acrimonious relationship and things had been escalating. 47 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 7: There was a scuffle that ensued, as defenses characterized it. 48 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 7: Ariel started that she was the initial aggressor. This thing 49 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 7: got a bit out of hand, but the client was 50 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 7: protecting himself because he's going to claim that he was 51 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 7: struck with the rock. And so that's essentially how the 52 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 7: defense is going to style it. You know, it'll be 53 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 7: up to the jury whether they accept that version or arials. 54 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 3: Let me see, Fattus, I'm going to ask you a 55 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 3: question that many people may think is rhetorical, but I mean, how. 56 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: Do you live with yourself? 57 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 7: It depends on the day. But keep in mind that 58 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 7: that wouldn't be necessarily the argument I would make in 59 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 7: this case. But they kind of have to own the 60 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 7: facts that they can't deny. Clearly, this person Ariel has 61 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 7: been blushet and so what sort of legal avenues do 62 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 7: you explore? On the defense side, it seems like the 63 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 7: horse they're going to ride is self defense. And although 64 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 7: this has been certainly a lot of trauma introduced into 65 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 7: this trial, it's not over yet and a defense still 66 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 7: has their case to put on. 67 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 3: Well, Eric Fattus, this is usually the moment that any 68 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: good defense attorney goes the Constitution demands that I give 69 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: my client a full and fair defense something along those. 70 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: Lines, and the constitution. 71 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: Blah blah blah blah, or what about this Doctor Kendall 72 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 3: Crowns is joining us. You know him well, the chief 73 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 3: Medical Examiner of Terrance County, that's fort Worth. He is 74 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 3: the star of a hit podcast made him in the Morgue, 75 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 3: and he is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School 76 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 3: of Medicine at TCU. Doctor Kendall Crowns, I guarantee you 77 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 3: this is where they're going. They're going to claim that 78 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 3: have you ever had a nosebleed or been hit in 79 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 3: the face, maybe by a soccer ball or baseball. The 80 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: veins in the face, the nose, the mouth, the eyes 81 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 3: surrounding the eyes are very sensitive and you're heavily veined 82 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 3: in those areas, so you bleed more profusely from your 83 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: face than you would from, say, for instance, your arm 84 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 3: or your leg. 85 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: Somehow trying to explain. 86 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 3: Away all that blood, can't you just see them arguing that. 87 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: Yes, I can. 88 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 9: I mean, the facial skin of the scalpskin is very vasculature, 89 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 9: a lot of arteries, a lot of veins, and when 90 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 9: you're looking at those pictures, you can see deep lacerations 91 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 9: right at the edge of the scalp and one kind 92 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 9: of more in the in the hair itself. So there's 93 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 9: going to be a tremendous amount of bleeding associated with 94 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 9: that which you're seeing in these pictures kind of streaming 95 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 9: down her face. And of course people are going to say, oh, well, 96 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 9: you know, those those injuries aren't all that significant. It's 97 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 9: just that's how you bleed when you get hit there. 98 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 9: But the problem is is that is a significant amount 99 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 9: of blood on her face, and those are very deep 100 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 9: injuries created by a rock that also cause lacerating injuries, 101 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 9: so it kind of has a sharp edge, and potentially 102 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 9: she could have had skull fractures if he had continued 103 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 9: to pound on her. 104 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 3: Doctor General Crowns, I've had many occasions in front of 105 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 3: a jury two and you know from having testified so 106 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 3: many many times that typically autopsy photos are not allowed 107 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 3: in front of a jury due to their inflammatory nature. 108 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: But there are ways a skilled prosecutor can get them in. 109 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 3: For instance, if the photo before autopsy does not reveal 110 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: the true extent of the injury. For instance, you see 111 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 3: a cut, you see blood, but you don't know are 112 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 3: there bruises subdual under the skin, Is there a fracture. 113 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: Did this cause brain swelling? Was it that bad? 114 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 3: And at that point, once you convince a judge that 115 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: a simple photo of the injury outside the body does 116 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 3: not sufficiently show the scope of the internal injuries, the 117 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 3: jury can then see for probitive value, of course, autopsy 118 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 3: photos where the skin is cut and actually they're scalped 119 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 3: the victim of scalp at autopsy and the here and 120 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 3: the scalp is pulled back and you actually see the 121 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 3: subdural or underlying bruising. Isn't that true? 122 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: Yes, that is accurate. 123 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 9: Often photographs in the courtroom situations are deemed inflammatory, so 124 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 9: we can't use them unless they are cleaned up. Photographs 125 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 9: that just show the wound on the external surface of 126 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 9: the body. Even the example you're using of the facial 127 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 9: skin being peeled forward showing the underlying subglial hemorrhages, are 128 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 9: often deemed too inflammatory because it's said that it's upsetting 129 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,239 Speaker 9: for the jury to see the skull in that nature. 130 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 9: So really what we usually are able to use is 131 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 9: very clean, sanitized photographs of the wounds themselves, although occasionally 132 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 9: a judge will allow more internal photographs to be shown 133 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 9: or more of the injury photographs to be shown because 134 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 9: they feel that the nature of the crime, it's the 135 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 9: showing of these pictures. 136 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: In this case, doctor Kendle Crowns, she barely escaped with 137 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 3: her life. So in this case, since just the photos 138 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 3: that we're showing will not sufficiently show her internal injuries, 139 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 3: any fracture to the skull, any swelling of the brain, 140 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 3: any subdural bruising under the skin, how do you this 141 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 3: Since we're obviously not going to pull her scalp back 142 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 3: like you would in an autopsy, how do you prove this? 143 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 3: How do you prove what happened? Doctor Kendall Crowns. 144 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 9: Uh, how do you prove it? When you don't you 145 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 9: can't show the pictures or you don't have an actual autopsy. 146 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 9: Is you have to go through what was seen. She 147 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 9: has those deep lacerations, you can describe those, and then 148 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 9: you can also talk about the potential for being beaten 149 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 9: with the rock, creating fractures of the skull, and even 150 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 9: internal injuries like subarachnoid hemorrhage of the brain. It is 151 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 9: kind of in this situation you have to just discuss 152 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 9: what you have, but you can talk about the severity 153 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 9: of the injuries by giving a description. 154 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 1: Hold on, don't need What. 155 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 3: About the possibility of an m or MRI or an 156 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 3: X ray. I mean, I'm just a lawyer, but if 157 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,719 Speaker 3: I wanted to show a skull fracture, I would get 158 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 3: an X ray And I don't know what in addition 159 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 3: an MRI I could prove in this situation. 160 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: But wouldn't that help? 161 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 9: It would X rays, CT scans, MRIs. All those findings 162 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 9: can actually be just as good as an autopsy because 163 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 9: they can show you skull fractures, hemorrhages of the brain, 164 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 9: all this information that even is not even actually all 165 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 9: that inflammatory to a jury because you're just looking at 166 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 9: an X ray or a CT or an MRI and 167 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 9: it's less jarring than the actual photographs. So those medical 168 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 9: records can be extremely helpful when you're testifying, especially when 169 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 9: there's no autopsy perform. 170 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 3: Okay, this is what happened. This is what always happens 171 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 3: at trial with me when I have a medical examiner 172 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 3: on the stand. You may not realize it, but everything 173 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 3: you say is fascinating to us lay people, and I 174 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 3: would go down the garden path on how do you 175 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 3: prove a certain injury? But I want to get off 176 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 3: of that and go to the facts. Alexis Tereschuk, This 177 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 3: body cam is damning. 178 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: I mean to me, it's open and shut. 179 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:34,839 Speaker 3: What is that? 180 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: And I can't believe this guy's an anesthesiologist. 181 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 3: And he gave a confession to his son and written 182 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 3: hid in the woods. Just take it from the top, 183 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 3: Alexis Tereschuk, What do we know happened to the victim? 184 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 10: So they were on a hike. It was actually her birthday. 185 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 10: They were on a wahu. They're going up a very 186 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 10: steep HiPE, very narrow, very steep. She didn't want to 187 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 10: go up anymore. She says, no, it's too step. I 188 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 10: don't want to go. He goes up by himself. He 189 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 10: comes back. He says to her, let's take a selfie. 190 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 10: He kind of positions her towards the cliff. She's very, 191 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 10: very nervous about taking a picture with him. She's very 192 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 10: nervous about being on the edge of the cliff. She's something. 193 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 10: She can tell that something's up. And then he attacks her. 194 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 10: He grabs her. She says, he tries. He pulls out 195 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 10: a syringe. She's got a backpack with him. Pulls out 196 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 10: a syringe with a substance in it tries to stab 197 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 10: her with it. She is fighting back as much as 198 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 10: she can. She's rolling on the ground, She's hitting him. 199 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 10: She actually says that she grabbed him in the testicles 200 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 10: to try to stop him from doing this. Somehow, she 201 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 10: knocks the syringe out of his hand and he's holding 202 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 10: her down with his right arm. He's reaching in his 203 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 10: backpack with his left hand, trying to get something else out. 204 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 10: She continues fighting. He then picks up a rock and 205 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 10: smashes her in the head with the rock, and her 206 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 10: head starts profusely believing he's hitting her, and she is screaming, 207 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 10: help me, help me, help me, somebody help me. 208 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 5: Hi, I'm needing attack them. Help the poly cook. Where 209 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 5: there's a man trying to kill her? 210 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 6: She's led all over her face? 211 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 5: Where is the dad? Polly Puka? 212 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 4: The hike as the look out? 213 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 11: Okay, so. 214 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 8: Look out. 215 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 5: She's on the Polly Pooka hike and he's he's currently 216 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 5: attacking her. Okay, where where? 217 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 6: How far is the hike or is it the entrance wire? 218 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 6: We're probably like five minutes into the hike and really 219 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 6: quick is okay, what are you seeing? 220 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 4: We heard her screaming, help, help me, help me, and 221 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 4: then we saw a man over her, and then she 222 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 4: crawled out with over. 223 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 6: Her face, saying that I'm trying to kill her. 224 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 4: And did she know him? 225 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 5: I don't know? 226 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 6: Okay? Wear is yeah? 227 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 12: What is he wearing? 228 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 4: The teacher white? She had brownish, sort of curly hair. 229 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 4: Asian Caucasian, Hawaiian white side white guy. 230 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 6: Yeah, okay. 231 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 12: And then want my shirt? 232 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: Sure? 233 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 6: Maybe shorts? 234 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 13: Arden? 235 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 6: What kind of shorts? 236 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 5: I didn't see he were in shorts. 237 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 3: Though, as far as I'm concerned, there's no coming back 238 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 3: for the defense once the jury sees the bloody photo 239 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,599 Speaker 3: from the body cam and seeing her trying to she 240 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 3: could barely walk in the video. To Dan Murphy, former 241 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 3: NYPD detective sergeant, has conducted literally hundreds of interrogations. He 242 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 3: is a star co host of gold Shields podcast and 243 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 3: the author of Workplace Safety. 244 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: Dan Murphy thanks for being with us. 245 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 3: He keeps saying, self defense, self defense, self defense. But 246 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 3: I guarantee you, if they do a DNA analysis on 247 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: that rock, it's only going to be her blood, not his. 248 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 11: I can't see any situation where she posed a threat 249 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 11: to him. It just doesn't make any sense all the 250 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 11: facts of this case so heavily in favor of her 251 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 11: statement and the statement of the son who he confessed to. 252 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 11: This is not a career criminal. This is a guy who, 253 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 11: in a moment of emotion, or in many moments of emotion, 254 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 11: very well premeditated acts, prepared himself to kill her that day. 255 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 11: In this hike, she is alive and alert on the 256 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 11: body cam giving statements after the fact, which is something 257 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 11: you don't always get with somebody who's injured as badly 258 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 11: as she is. She's saying, it was my husband. He 259 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 11: tried to kill me. He's out there, he's on the run. Now. 260 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 11: If you were innocent, where are you going. Everything about 261 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 11: this situation to me marks him as one of the 262 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 11: more guilty people you'll ever see in the history of 263 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 11: criminal justice. This is, like you said, open and shut. 264 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 11: This is a no brainer for cops. The investigation is closed. 265 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 11: That's it. One perpetrator, he's on the scene. Done. 266 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 14: Annolulu prosecutors claimed Gerhard Kunnig carefully plans to kill wife 267 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 14: Ariel due to resentment over alleged infidelity. The state says 268 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 14: Konig spends time on infidelity forums, looks into his wife's 269 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 14: financial situation and researches the cost of divorce before planning 270 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 14: the hike in a closed area where he would send 271 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 14: Ariel over the edge, bringing along sedation drugs as a 272 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 14: backup plan. 273 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: When Koenig's caught in the act. 274 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 14: Of attempted murder, prosecutors say Koenig tries to evade authorities 275 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 14: and confesses on a call with his adult son, contemplating 276 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 14: which is worse, prison or suicide. 277 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 3: Alexis Tereschuk joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter, Alexis this 278 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 3: is for doctor Bethany. Could you describe for Bethany verbatim 279 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 3: what the doctor Doctor Koenig wrote to his wife on 280 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 3: the birthday card that morning. 281 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 10: He wrote, Happy birthday, Angel Face. There isn't an obstacle 282 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 10: in this world too hard for me to fight through 283 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 10: for you. 284 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 3: Okay, doctor Bethany Marshall, you're the renowned psycho analyst joining 285 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 3: us out of Beverly Heels, author of deal Breaker. You 286 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 3: can see her now on Bravo and Peacock and find 287 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 3: her at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. 288 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: Okay, hit me, Bethany. 289 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 3: I guess you see the dichotomy in Angel Face and 290 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 3: then bashing in her face with a rock. 291 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 13: Yes I do, Nancy. You know what I'm seeing in 292 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 13: this is that he's buttering her up before taking her 293 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 13: on this potentially murderous hike. Also that he's feeling a 294 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 13: sense of relief because he knows he's going to get 295 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 13: rid of her, similar to what we see with a 296 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 13: domestic homicide that often the perpetrator goes, goes out drinking, 297 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 13: hangs out with friends. They're just going about their life, 298 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 13: so happy because they got rid of the loved one. 299 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 13: But I think what's most important is what came before 300 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 13: this card, this card for her birthday, where he is 301 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 13: luring her onto this trail so that he control to 302 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 13: murder her. He finds out that she's texting with another guy, 303 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 13: and he just assumed she's having an affair. 304 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: No evidence. 305 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 13: I've seen in court all the text. There's no evidence. 306 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 13: There's no sex, steing, there is nothing. It is a friendship. 307 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 13: What does he do? He doesn't confront her, He confronts 308 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 13: he's He talks to her best friends, another couple, her 309 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 13: family members. He tries to degrade and expose her to everyone. 310 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 13: Then he gets them to go to marytal counseling buy 311 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 13: a book about infidelity where she's told to give up 312 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 13: all of her passwords to him. So now he's infiltrating 313 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 13: her social media, he's cutting her off from family and friends. 314 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 13: Then he insists that he's going to have to have 315 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 13: sex with her twice a week. So to me, that 316 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 13: is he's dominating her through sex. 317 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: Okay, wait, why why Bethany? 318 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 3: So they had a contract she had to have sex 319 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 3: with him twice a week, even if he's odious. 320 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 13: This is what came out in testimony, Nancy, which I found. 321 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: Oh I'm sorry, I keep going that. 322 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 13: To me, that's what we call in my field, triumphing 323 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 13: over the love object. In other words, using sex penetration, 324 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 13: overpowering the other person to show them who's in charge. 325 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 13: He's dominating her sexually because he believes she's having an affair. 326 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 13: And you know what, Nancy, the defense attorney dominates her 327 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 13: in court as well. He humiliates her by making her 328 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 13: read all of the text between her and this other guy. 329 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 13: There is not one iota of anything sexual. It's all 330 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 13: pretty benign. But I see her on the witness stand 331 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 13: like she's the girl with a scarlet letter, like he's 332 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 13: the one who tried to bash in her face with 333 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 13: the rock. And you know what, Nancy, when testimony came 334 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 13: out that it was only her DNA on the rock, 335 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 13: do you know what Gerhart did in court? He smirked. 336 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 1: He thought it was funny. 337 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 13: I hope the juries saw that. 338 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 3: Let me understand something, Alex's tereschuk, isn't it true? The 339 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 3: aerial the victim in this case, the one with the 340 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 3: blood streaming down her face. She was cross examined extensively 341 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 3: on whether she had an affair, what happened. 342 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 10: She did not have a physical affair. She never had 343 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 10: sex with this guy. She never even sent him any 344 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 10: naked photos. There was never anything like that. He was 345 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 10: a coworker. That she was texting. You could perhaps describe 346 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 10: it as an emotional affair, but she was talking with 347 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 10: a guy she worked remotely, he worked remotely. They were chatting, 348 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 10: they were texting, but it was nothing inappropriate in terms 349 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 10: of going. 350 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 13: Either with no pictures. 351 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 10: There was nothing like let's meet up in a hotel 352 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 10: or having you know, a workplace affair at their office. 353 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,479 Speaker 10: It was all on text and just she's saying it 354 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 10: was a and emotional fair becaus was friendly because he. 355 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: Knew about my life. 356 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 10: But it wasn't anything. 357 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 3: Sexual crime stories with Nancy Grace. So on the stand 358 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 3: she is grilled. You heard doctor Bethany Marshall refer to 359 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 3: the Scarlet Letter. She's referring, of course, to the classic literature, 360 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 3: the book The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne, as I recall, 361 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 3: where in that case, in that story, the victim gave 362 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 3: birth to a child out of wedlock, and she was 363 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 3: ostracized and mistreated and shined much worse. And it turned 364 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 3: out the revered pastor that everyone loved and looked up 365 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 3: to was the biological father. 366 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: What a turn of events. It's playing out in a 367 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: course all over again. 368 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 3: Does nobody read their English literature, Bethany. 369 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 13: It's playing out in a courtroom. And what I think 370 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 13: is particularly noxious to me, it very much upset me, 371 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 13: was that he made her read aloud some texts in 372 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 13: which she referred with Gearhart to her husband about this 373 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 13: emotional affair. And because I deal with abuse victims, what 374 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 13: I could see immediately what I read through was probably 375 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 13: he was calling it an emotional affair. He forced her 376 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 13: to call it an emotional affair, which it was not 377 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 13: and then those text messages were read aloud in court 378 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 13: with the defense attorney saying, didn't you say you were 379 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 13: having an emotional affair? Of course, an abuse victim is 380 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 13: going to use whatever language the perpetrator wants her to use. 381 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 13: So in some ways, you know, she's been bashed in 382 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 13: the face with a rock. Now she's being bashed psychologically 383 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 13: by the defense attorney. And she sits there. She's so dignified, 384 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 13: she answers every question she calls. The defense attorney sir. 385 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 13: I'm thinking, like, that's so respectful. He he is just 386 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 13: like one more person in the system who's trying to 387 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 13: blame the victim. It is so disturbing. I think everybody 388 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 13: needs to watch that testimony and sort of see what's 389 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 13: really playing out in that courtroom. 390 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 12: Hi, I'm I'm. 391 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 5: Currently being attacked on help of Polycuka where there's a 392 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 5: man trying to kill her, shell it all over her face. 393 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 6: Where is it, Dad Pollua? The hike? 394 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 11: Look out? 395 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 14: Okay, so. 396 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 6: Look out. 397 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 4: She's on the Pollycuka hike and he's he's. 398 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 6: Currently attacking her. 399 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 4: Okay, where how far is the hike guarded? 400 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 6: The entrance where we're probably like five minutes into the hike. 401 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 6: Really quickly. 402 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: The Koenigs had gone to couples counseling working to put 403 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 3: their marriage back together, and after she gets a love 404 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 3: field birthday had she believes Ariel things were on the upswing. 405 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 3: In fact, she just testified, I teared up when I 406 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 3: read it. I felt hopeful. This was a turning point 407 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 3: for us, and this is going to be a nice 408 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 3: trip in the start of the next chapter for us, 409 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 3: you know, doctor Bethany, I'm trying to put the right 410 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 3: words to something. I'm trying to verbalize it. It's bad 411 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 3: enough when you're in an abusive relationship and you get 412 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 3: emotionally and verbally abused and physically abused, which she said 413 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:41,400 Speaker 3: she was and was sexually abused by doctor Gearhart Koenig. 414 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,880 Speaker 1: But it's to me worse. 415 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 3: When you feel hopeful, when you feel that everything's going 416 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 3: to work out, and you have that glimmer of hope 417 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 3: that you're going to get that happily. Ever after that 418 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 3: whole Hallmark happy family image, you know, the Christmas card, 419 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 3: the Christmas Trea, the family gathered together around the table, 420 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 3: that whole thing. It's worse to me when you have 421 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 3: hope and then the worst happens, in this case physically bashed, 422 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 3: as opposed to no, hope, you're just enduring it. It 423 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 3: just it's you verbalize that much better than me. 424 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 13: Answer the shock that everything turned on a dime. But 425 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 13: what I think you're talking about is idealization of the 426 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 13: other person is necessary for staying in love. We think 427 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 13: our spouses, our wives, our husbands, we see the best 428 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 13: in them. We see the best in our family members. 429 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 13: We want them to inhabit our idealized view of them. 430 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 13: And so when she received this card, she thought, Wow, 431 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 13: the gear heart that I married, that I knew that 432 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 13: I loved, that I was bonded with. He's back and 433 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 13: she was hopeful. And then when it turned on a nancy. 434 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 13: And you know what's interesting, it was only five minutes 435 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 13: into the hike. And I think that's fascinating because it 436 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 13: tells me that he was impulsive, aggressive, and he could 437 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 13: hardly wait. If this was more thought out, he would 438 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 13: have hiked a full hour, but no, it was five 439 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 13: minutes in. That is so arrogant that he manipulates her 440 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 13: with the card instigates hope. I think that summarizes probably 441 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 13: the entire relationship. 442 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 3: I'm just wondering to Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, 443 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 3: the Hawaii anesthesiologist who, in my mind, tried to murder 444 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 3: his nuclear engineer wife. When are all of his secrets 445 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 3: going to come out? They forced Ariel on the stand 446 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 3: and then cross examined her on thirty text messages. 447 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: Who cares she didn't have sex with the guy? Next? 448 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: Moving on, what about him? He was married to a prostitute? 449 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: Is nobody mentioning that in court? 450 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 8: You know why it hasn't already come up? 451 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 12: But you know Koenik's first wife is still a sex worker. 452 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 12: Her her name is Jessica Vittella, but she now goes 453 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 12: by the stage name Jesse Sage. Still lives in Pittsburgh 454 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 12: where she lives. 455 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 3: Excuse me, hold on, dack, No, no, no, Well, I'm sorry, 456 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 3: did you just say stage name? 457 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: She's a sex worker? 458 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 2: Yes? 459 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: What stage are you talking about? Is she on Broadway? 460 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: I miss that? 461 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 12: Oh, I'm I'm so, I apologize. She works in the 462 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 12: sex industry. She does I'm guessing shows for locals because 463 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 12: she is not working Broadway, Nancy, but she does use 464 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 12: what is referred to as her stage name is Jesse Sage. 465 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 3: Okay, nothing could make me happier at this moment other 466 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 3: than a guilty verdict. 467 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: So hold on. The first wife is a sex worker. 468 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 3: They stay married, as I recall off the top of 469 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 3: my head, about fifteen years, have two children. 470 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: They split. 471 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 3: Yes, gee, I wonder why. Actually, I don't blame her 472 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 3: for being a sex worker. 473 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: I blame him. I mean, when you don't know a horse. 474 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 3: Look at the track record. So tell me more about 475 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 3: this first marriage. I'm stunned this has not come out 476 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 3: in court yet. 477 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 8: Well, you know, they did have two children. 478 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 12: As you mentioned, they married fairly young, at about twenty 479 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 12: years old. Each married for fifteen years. In that fifteen 480 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 12: years of marriage, there was a lot of fighting going on, 481 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 12: and it is written about by one of their children 482 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 12: to a degree of writing in third person. Publicly, I 483 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 12: mentioned that the first wife is a current sex worker. 484 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 8: She's based in Pittsburgh. 485 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 12: She writes about a sexual column for the Pittsburgh City Paper. 486 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 12: She has been on a number of podcasts as being 487 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 12: a sex worker and mother. By the way, when they 488 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 12: were divorced, Patella not Knig, got custody of their two children. 489 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, you're like you got me 490 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: drinking on the fire hydrant. You're giving me so much information. 491 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 3: Let me be clear, I don't give a flying fig 492 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 3: If she's a sex worker, go be happy, Go be 493 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 3: a sex worker. 494 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: I'm not the church lady. What I care about is. 495 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 3: Did he abuse her as well? Because that's going to 496 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 3: be state's witness number eleven. Once I finished the case 497 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 3: in chief, I'm gonna start with similar transactions and that 498 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 3: being her by whatever name she's choosing, because it's my 499 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 3: understanding that their child now adult writes about being admitted 500 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 3: to psychiatric hospitals and seeing his mother losing blood like 501 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 3: trees lose leaves in the fall. The child now adult 502 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 3: goes on to state he doesn't remember much of his childhood. 503 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 3: On one Christmas morning, the brother came into their room 504 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 3: and the then child hid under the covers waiting for 505 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 3: the parents to start fighting. And in the end of 506 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 3: that marriage, the children were given to the sex worker mom, 507 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:30,719 Speaker 3: which speaks volumes about doctor Koenig, now charged with attempted murder, 508 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 3: that the court would give the children to a sex 509 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 3: worker with a questionable lifestyle and questionable stability over a 510 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 3: medical doctor father. I think the judge did the right thing, 511 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 3: no question about it. Could you clarify those issues for me, 512 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 3: Dave Mack, you are. 513 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 12: One hundred percent accurate. Nancy, after fifteen years of marriage 514 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 12: and two children, when they went through their divorce, the 515 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 12: judge sided with gunnis At now ex wife Jessica Patella, 516 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 12: and awarded her custody of their children. 517 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 518 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, what is he wearing? 519 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 4: The teacher white? She had brownish, sort of curly hair, 520 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 4: Asian Cocasian, Hawaiian white by white guy. 521 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 12: Yeah. 522 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 1: And then what kind of shirt? 523 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 5: T shirt? 524 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 6: Maybe oni shorts? Pardon what kind of shorts? 525 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 5: I didn't see you were in shorts though? 526 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 3: Two Crime Stories Investigator report Alexis Tereshchuk. Alexis, have we 527 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 3: heard one whisper in court about the previous marriage? 528 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 10: Not yet? We have not were The only thing we've 529 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 10: were expected is the child from the first marriage. That 530 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 10: is who he called. He left was after he got 531 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 10: in the fight. He ran into the woods or to 532 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 10: the jungle of this Hawaiian island and he called his 533 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 10: child and that's where he said, I just tried to 534 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 10: kill Ariel and fully confessed to his child on the phone. 535 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 10: That child is expected to testify, but may. 536 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:25,719 Speaker 1: Or may not. 537 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 3: Back to doctor Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst, joining us out 538 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 3: of la Doctor Bethany again, I really could not care 539 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 3: less than I do that his other wife is a 540 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 3: sex worker. But let me ask you, how does that 541 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 3: fit in with your analysis? Does he want women that 542 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 3: he can control? And when he doesn't get that control, 543 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 3: he explodes. 544 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't get the dichotomy. 545 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 3: He's with one woman that gets paid to have sex 546 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 3: with other men, and he's fine with that. But then 547 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 3: he has Ariel, a nuclear engineer for Pete's sake, and 548 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 3: she doesn't have an affair, and he bashes her head 549 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 3: in with. 550 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 13: A rock, Nancy. It's like the Madonna horror complex where 551 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 13: one person. Usually these men have affairs where they have 552 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 13: somebody who's a sex worker who is highly salacious, sexualized, 553 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 13: sexually aggressive, and that woman is allowed to be very sexual, 554 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 13: and then they have their wives that they keep at home, 555 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 13: and then the wife is expected to be virginal. If 556 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 13: she even smiles at another man, he thinks, oh my god, 557 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 13: she's cheating on me. So it's kind of like the 558 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 13: Madonna horror complex carried out in time, and I want 559 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 13: to guess that Gerhard is maybe like a highly sexually 560 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 13: aggressive person. So he married somebody who's a sex worker 561 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 13: because he was probably out in those environments and this 562 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 13: is what was familiar to him. But can you imagine 563 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 13: if Ariel having a friend destabilized him so much that 564 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 13: he wanted to kill her. Imagine what he subjected the 565 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 13: sex worker to. I mean, I'm sure life was horrible 566 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 13: for her. And then calling his teenage son Nancy he 567 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 13: was a teenager saying I tried to kill ari but 568 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 13: she got away. How many times did Gerhard burden his 569 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 13: children with secrets, with abuse, with things that he said 570 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 13: about their mothers. I mean, I'm sure what's going to 571 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 13: come out is it was a pretty terrifying childhood for 572 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 13: these kids. 573 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 3: Two. Eric Fannas joining US veteran trial lawyer, former felony prosecutor. Eric, 574 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 3: how do you keep out the first wife if she 575 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 3: has evidence of prior similar transactions, for instance, he had 576 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 3: beaten her before too. 577 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 7: Sure, So I think there are several ways to go 578 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 7: about it. One is that the fact that she exists 579 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 7: in was a sex worker that has nothing to do 580 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 7: with this case. The fact that there may have been 581 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 7: some prior allegations. You look at how attenuated those are. 582 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 7: You try to see, hey, how much time has gone by. 583 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 7: You look at distinctions between those allegations and the allegation 584 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 7: at this trial, which is that he used to rock 585 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 7: to to bass head. You know, my apprehension is that 586 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 7: there are going to be some dissimilarities between both of 587 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 7: those accounts. And when you have those distinctions, when you 588 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 7: have that attenuation, sometimes the judge is going to say, hey, 589 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 7: that's too removed, that's too remote, and we are not 590 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 7: going to let it in in this trial because it 591 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 7: could prejudice the jury to convict this dude because they 592 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 7: think he's a bad dude, or they think he has 593 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 7: a bad character. They think he's been violent. 594 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 8: Before, but he's not being charged with being violent. 595 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 3: Before straight out to Dan Murphy, joining us former NYPDA 596 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 3: detective sergeant, co host of hit podcast gold Shields, and 597 00:34:53,760 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 3: author of Workplace Safety Establishing effective violence prevention programs. Dan, again, 598 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 3: I have to agree with Fattus that the fact the 599 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 3: first wife is a sex worker irrelevant except for I 600 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 3: wonder and it could be argued at court that he 601 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 3: wanted women he could control financially, emotionally, physically, and then 602 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 3: when Ariel Koenig would not submit to his demands and 603 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 3: his control, he bashed her head in And this was 604 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 3: well planned, she says. He brought syringers and tried to 605 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 3: stab her with them. So this had been in the 606 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 3: works for some time. But what would you bring up 607 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 3: with the first wife, the one that's a sex worker. 608 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 11: Well, first of all, I would want to talk to 609 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 11: her if I was one of the investigating detectives. I 610 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 11: want to talk to I want to get a picture 611 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 11: of this person if I can to see if it 612 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 11: helps the prosecution of the case this is posed to rest. 613 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 11: Of course, let's find out what we can find out about. 614 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 11: Was he ever violent with her before? Are there court 615 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 11: records that indicate orders of protection back where they used 616 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 11: to live. Were there police reports that show that there 617 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 11: have been fights that did not result in arrest, or 618 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 11: maybe that did and the cases were dismissed. What can 619 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 11: I learn about him and his behavior toward women in 620 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 11: general that might help prosecution paint a picture of him, 621 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 11: That this was not an isolated moment where she came 622 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 11: at him, That this guy has a pattern and a 623 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 11: history during his life, of controlling behavior, a violent behavior 624 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 11: of escalations, and in this case, I think we have 625 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 11: so much material that shows us that he was intent 626 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 11: on harming, if not killing her there. But in his 627 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 11: previous life before this wife, what were his patterns? That 628 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 11: is very compelling evidence in a courtroom. It's compelling to 629 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 11: anyone to learn that the person has a pattern and 630 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,760 Speaker 11: a history of handling frustrations through violence. 631 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 3: In the last days, girrars shown shot bodycam of the 632 00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 3: anesthesiologist doctor's bloody wife. They see the rock he allegedly 633 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 3: used to bash her in a cliff side attack while 634 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 3: they were to be celebrating her birthday. The graphic body 635 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 3: camera video and bloodstained rock used in court and allegedly 636 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 3: in a brutal cliff side attack. The jury sees it. 637 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 3: To Alexis Tereschuk, what was the jury's response. 638 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 10: I think everybody in the jury is just watching this seriously. 639 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,919 Speaker 10: But the one thing that's really interesting is that he 640 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 10: has been seen smiling so much during all of this testimony, 641 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 10: when all of this evidence has been presented, He's been 642 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 10: seen smiling, and people that are watching the court think 643 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 10: it's a little odd that maybe he would be smiling 644 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 10: through something that's so terrible that he's been accused of 645 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 10: something really terrible. His wife is clearly very upset. These 646 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 10: women that found him and are upset. People that are 647 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 10: presenting the evidence are very matter of fact showing there's 648 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 10: blood on the rock. This is the DNA evidence we have, 649 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 10: and he's sitting there smiling in court. 650 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. 651 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 3: Now we remember an American hero Master Trooper Stephen Perry, 652 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 3: North Carolina Highway Patrol just thirty, killed in the line 653 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:25,760 Speaker 3: of duty, leaving behind a nine month old baby girl. 654 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 1: And her mom. American hero Master Trooper Stephen Perry. Nancy 655 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: Gray signing off goodbye friend,