WEBVTT - Jewel 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.800 Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:08.400 Studio on iHeart Radio. My name's Jordan Runtag, But enough 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:12.320 about me. Apologies for the COVID related silence last week, 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:14.560 but we are back and we're so excited to share 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.040 with you our latest conversation. My guest today is a singer, 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:21.560 songwriter and mental health activist. She used music as a 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:24.880 form of self therapy to transcend the difficult circumstances of 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:28.640 her upbringing in Alaska. Ultimately, the same songs that brought 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.920 solace to her touched millions. Her album Pieces of You 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:35.520 has become one of the best selling debuts of all time, 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.280 earning her praise from the likes of Bob Dylan and 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:42.559 Neil Young. A fierce independent spirit, her work has spans 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.240 genres and mediums. This creative wonder lust not to menure. 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:48.560 Her lust for life is a parent in the title 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:52.240 of her latest record, Free Wheeland Woman, her first collection 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.240 of original material in seven years. It's a rich and 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:59.080 diverse musical sampling that draws elements of pop and muscle. 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.960 Shoals are in and there were familiar folks sound. Altogether, 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:05.319 the album is a portrait of an artist who says 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.240 prolific and singular as ever, brimming with optimism and passion. 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:11.840 She's about to kick off her summer tour in early 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.559 June when she can bring you this positivity in person. 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.280 But hopefully you'll get a little of that positive energy 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:19.399 come with your speakers right now, is you listen in. 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:27.600 I'm so happy to welcome Juel. You're an incredibly prolific writer, 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.919 and you have this staggering cash of of unheard songs. 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.120 I think I've read upwards of a thousand. But for 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:35.880 this album, you said you started from scratch and wrote 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:38.560 songs specifically for this record. What led you to take 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:44.080 that approach this time around? I'm a glutton for punishment. 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:49.920 I'm not get it. It's like I have sitting there 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:55.680 perfectly good songs, and now there was a specific reason 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.760 I really wanted to this album to be who and 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.800 what I am now. Um, you know, songs are like 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:08.720 little time capsules. Um, it's kind of a complex little narrative, 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:11.799 but I'll try and say it really simply. When when 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.240 I was eighteen and I got discovered, my goal was 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.200 to be It's ambitious. I know it's a little assible, 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:18.720 but my goal is to be one of the best 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:22.520 singer songwriters of all time. I wanted to push myself 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:26.600 to be a great writer, and I knew that that 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:28.360 was gonna be really hard for me as a woman. 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:32.680 Um well, it's just a hard goal period. Um. But 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:35.160 when I looked at the steelsa like, who do I 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.519 look up to? Who has done this as a woman, 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.080 It's kind of hard. You know, you have luminarums like 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.880 Joni Mitchelin and Cheetie Jones and Carl Kane, and you know, 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.880 the list goes on. We're not shy on talent and 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:52.040 the female singer songwriter category, but as the women aged, 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:56.000 they never, in my opinion, got to enjoy the same 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.600 ticket sales and prestige that their male counterparts like Bob 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:04.480 Dylan Emil Young. And that's troubling, right because I was 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.679 a girl wanting to try and pull off something where 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:10.640 I haven't seen a lot of women get a chance 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:13.720 to pull it off. And there were women in the 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:17.400 pop side, you know that had become icons, but that 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:22.200 was Madonna and Share and that's just not who I am. Um. 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.200 I wanted to do it as a singer songwriter, so 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.720 it meant navigating and trying to build my career in 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.800 a way that I hope would foster my writing. You know, 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.040 where I kept writing, I kept doing things that were 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.480 for me inventive, that pushed myself, whether they were or 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.400 weren't in thinks with where a culture was to take 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.680 risks musically. You know that has to be part of 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:47.440 your plans. But you I still have to head to 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.400 face this, like, well, what do women in the middle 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.720 age do with that job? It's not cute, you know, 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.040 like you see most women in their middle age still 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.400 trying to dress like they're young and be super cute 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:00.960 and hopefully have a really catchy and I just think, 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:06.000 I don't know, abysmal to me in a way. If 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:08.680 it's who you authentically are, that's awesome, but it just 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:10.920 doesn't happen to be how I want to do it. 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.640 So me doing this record this way from me with 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.680 these things one saying, I wanted to push myself to 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.680 write in a way I've never written before. I wanted 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:23.760 to find a new gear and a new muscle that 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:28.520 felt fresh, that felt uh like I wasn't just covering 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.880 ground is covered before. That pushed me vocally in a 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.160 way I've never been pushed before that, hopefully it was 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:39.360 you know, well crafted, um, but it wasn't contrived and reactionary, 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:41.640 and it gets really hard in your middle age. Like, 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:44.800 I definitely see why why David Bowie and so many 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.320 other artists did a lot of drugs at the stays 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.599 in the care to get like a new sounds, because 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:53.080 it's hard to get rid of the old versions of 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.240 yourself and to get rid of the stuff like you know, 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.720 as chorus could come thirty seconds into a song or 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.000 a song to the three minutes, all that just makes 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:04.680 garbage music. Um. And you have to figure out how 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.680 to get old versions of yourself and bad information out 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:10.760 of your head and come from a really new, authentic place. 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:14.159 And that's work. It was a lot of work to 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.440 write the songs on this album UM, to push myself. 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:19.800 I think I wrote two hundred songs to get the 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.280 like UM and it was nuts. It was a Nettie process. 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:30.080 Drugs would have been new Years like the silber was hard, um, 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:32.159 but I'm really proud of the result. So that was 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.320 one aspect of wanting to do it. The other aspect 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.560 is I wanted this frombody who I was at the 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:39.880 fourty seven year old female I wanted it to. So 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.320 now proud I am because I am. I'm proud. I 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:47.920 wanted this album to be empowering. Um, the decisions that 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.200 I've made, like you know, quitting after Spirits, you know, 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:54.239 I quit for two years because I couldn't psychologically adjust 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.760 to the level of same I got. There was nobody 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.120 celebrating that at the time. You know, nobody was like, well, 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.279 good for her, He's doing this for her mental health. 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.880 Mental health wasn't a word, and everybody's like, she's already 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.839 washed up, Like it was really cruel narrative of suppressive 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:10.200 and for me to have the courage to do it 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.919 in way until I tell my label and tell my 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.919 managers like nope, I am gonna have a pycal break 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.599 down if I don't figure out how to handle the 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.160 level of same I've gotten. I make really full decisions 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.200 in my whole career that we're not always understood. And 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:30.400 so I'm just proud. You know, I wanted this record too. Yeah, 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.960 I don't know, serve as a sort of I don't know, 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.239 a glimpse into what it's like to be a female 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.359 singer songwriter. UM, what it's like to be middle aged 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:42.840 and to say, I really believe I'm writing at the 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:44.880 heights of my power. I really believe I was singing 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.440 at the height of my power. Um and I feel 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:51.440 like we think we see talent diminished with time, and 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:53.359 you have to fight for that to not be the case. 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.240 And that's, you know, a thought that I've been aggressive 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:01.600 with with myself. So long answer, more experiences, more inside. 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.400 I mean, it makes sense that you'd be at the 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:06.320 peak of your powers. I'm stopping up on the two songs. 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.520 That is incredible to me. What was the calling process 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:11.880 like for for choosing the songs for this record? Where 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:13.720 you did you pick the ones that you felt like 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:15.920 reflected who you are in this moment the best, or 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.600 just purely ones that were your favorite for reasons like 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:23.119 you like the melody or something like that. I found 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:26.560 out when writing very proficiently. But I think I was 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:30.760 writing pretty safe. And I'll honestly, I think that I 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:35.840 never wrote the same since everything went down with my mom. 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:39.400 I think that there was some kind of like psychological governor, 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:43.720 I guess you could say, And it was hard for 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:47.520 me to access a really really deep, raw place with 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.800 my writing, and I had to fast tackle that and 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.240 I've never realized that I've written any references them. By 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.560 the way, Picking Up the Pieces is actually probably a 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:59.640 favorite album I've ever recorded. It's a lot of old songs. Um, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:04.240 My new stuff just wasn't as I don't know, chrisp 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:07.960 or Raw or new. You know. It was like, oh, 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.960 this kind of sounds like something I've already written, and 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:12.880 I knew it. You know, nobody else might know it, 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.280 but I could tell. I could hear it in the writing, 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.440 and so I just didn't let myself settle until it 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:22.239 broke through that and that was a real intense process. Also, 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.640 you know, writing anything in the same genre is hard. 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.080 You know, if you sit down, you may not write 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:28.840 a good song, probably won't write. I look at it 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.560 like mining for gold. You just some daysy get dirt, 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.439 you know, and some dasy to diamonds. You don't have 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:36.880 control over it, so you have to put hours in, 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:42.200 you know, to find that magical diamond. Um, unless you're contrived. Right, 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:43.920 If I was just trying to write a pop hit, 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:46.280 that would kind of be different. Um, But when you're 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.040 trying to find something just fresh or new, this is 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.360 sort of it's a collaboration with the unknown you know, 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:56.680 you can't control that process. Um, and then getting it 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.480 in the same genre. So a good song that happens 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.360 to kind as via a scene, because when I sit down, 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.920 I can't control the style. It sometimes comes out countries 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.000 and then come out full because sometimes comes out rock. 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:10.760 I don't always. I just don't have control over that. 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.800 And so getting things that felt like they were good 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.679 and new and of a piece, you know, where they 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:22.079 made sense together just really took time. And it's funny. 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.000 It wasn't if I haven't listened to the album since 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:26.199 I made it, which was two years ago. Um, but 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:27.560 I heard it the other day and I was like, 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:29.360 oh wow, it didn't dawn on me. This is the 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.800 first album where I finally got all my styles on 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.480 one record. I thought I was really making an album 0:09:34.480 --> 0:09:36.360 that felt like of a piece, and hopefully it does, 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.880 but I didn't realize. Also, like there's straight up folk music, 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:43.960 and then there's country stuff, and then there's real pop stuff. Um. 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.120 And then introducing you know, and paying homage to an 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.720 influence I've never had a chance to do before, which 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.400 is full uh, and those the full style of writing 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.720 like the Weathers as well as the great singers Oh, 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.880 I was gonna say, I love the diversity of arrangements 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:01.840 on this It's so compelling to me. I mean, something 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:04.640 like Grateful is something right out of muscle shoals, and 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:07.480 you've got like the Memphis stax horns from Love Winds 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.240 and it's and then you've got something stripped back and 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:13.080 so delicate like almost. I mean, I love how just 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.920 the styles and the arrangements are so diverse, And and 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:18.360 you hear that in your head as you're writing these songs. 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.720 You hear the kind of the the vague style that 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:25.559 it would take as you're writing it. Yeah, you feel 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:28.840 the mood for sure. Um, Like I knew when I 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.880 was writing almost that you know, it's like having lace 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.400 that would dissolve in water, Like that song is so 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:40.720 delicate but so sharp at the same time that it's 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:43.560 just can't handle production and just know that it's just 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.160 going to be what it is. Guitar, no voice. Um. 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.800 Whereas when I was writing Love Winds, like all of 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.240 a sudden, I was like, what is this? This is 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:56.160 like like and Tina Turner era, like, you know, you 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.839 start feeling that flavor sort of as you're writing it. 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:13.640 You mentioned listening to the album back for the first 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.120 time in two years since you've made it. Do you 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:19.160 ever learn anything from about yourself from listening to your songs? 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.400 I mean I overuse this analogy, but almost like a 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.560 like a good dream reading. Do you ever hear a 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:26.319 song back that you wrote and actually get new perspective 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:31.400 on on what's going on inside of you? Mm hmm, 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:38.320 not particularly. Um, that's my poetry. For me, when I 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:40.800 look back and read my poetry, poetry has been the 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.920 thing I've written consistently, more consistently than any other thing 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:46.240 in my life. I don't publish it ever, but I 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.080 have boatloads of it swimming around. Um. And if I 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.920 go back and read my poetry and like, wow, I 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:53.760 saw the writing on the wall and I didn't even know. 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:57.360 I thought, definitely has much more of like a tea 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.800 leave thing of like holy smokes. But I don't know 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:05.640 experienced my songwriting that way particularly. That's so interesting, I love. 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:07.800 I mean, when speaking to people who are blessed with 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.760 the ability to write music, I'm just so interested to 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:12.840 hear what compels them to do it in the first place. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.079 And for you, it sounds like this came from a 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.640 fulfilled a very specific purpose early on, which was kind 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:20.880 of as an exercise in mindfulness. And I wanted to 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:22.960 ask you more about that because that's so interesting to me. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.880 When I was eight, my parents got divorced. My mom 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.840 left us, and my dad took over raising us, and 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.000 he became he started drinking. He was trauma triggering, but 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.160 you know, the words trauma trigger were not a well 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.000 known thing at the time. He started drinking to try 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.120 to mitigate that, and it went pretty predictably um and 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:47.000 so he became abusive. Uh. We were singing them bars. 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:49.280 So I was in a lot of pain, is the 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.520 bottom line. And I was watching a lot of people 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.520 in pain because I was singing them bars. And when 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.439 you sing them bars, you know five hours sets, you're 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.480 kind of seeing the regulars. You're not seeing the person 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:03.720 comes in, you know, casually, or seeing people medicate. And 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:06.040 I didn't know those words at the time, but I 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.960 could tell people from pain. I recognized that because I 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.240 was in it and I noticed this. I was always 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.199 just an observant person. I was like watching people and 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.400 I felt like, Wow, I have this front seat road 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.959 to people being just like living their lives so out 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:25.360 loud because they're integrated right or high, and they have 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.439 no filter um. And so I watched people drinking to 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.120 handle pain. I watched people doing drugs. I watched people 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:34.040 having sex, not literally, but you know, these relationships that 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:37.520 were wallable and would play out. And I realized, like, 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:41.040 oh my gosh, nobody outruns pain, but we're not taught 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.560 what to do with it. And I wanted to try 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:46.920 and handle my pain as it happened, because they I 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:49.640 see in pictures, and so I just saw these people 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.960 had some kind of pain, and then they covered that 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:56.200 pain up with a lot of bad choices, and it 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.120 led to more pain, and then it was suddenly like 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:01.040 this mountain that they never could face, and it would 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.040 have been better if they could just found a skill 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.760 or the courage to just face the original pain. You 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.959 can't outrun pain, was my takeaway, and so I tried 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.520 to like assess, like what did I have that helped 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.400 me with pain? And writing help. I was journaling at 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.480 a really young age. I was trying to write poetry 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.960 to young age, and I felt better. I felt noticeably 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.680 better when I wrote, and so I just sort of 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:30.080 turned to that as my coping mechanism. I guess, UM 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.200 never thinking it would be a job. You know, it 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.120 was just a way of seeing patterns and of seeing 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.880 things about myself that I didn't know I saw, of 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.440 seeing things about my dad, for instance, I didn't know 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:44.600 I saw, and it helped me. It kind of felt 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.800 like a ladder up and out of my pain or 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.920 myself for my situation and been little did I know 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.000 how literal that would be. It would be a literal 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:57.400 letter out. I mean, you've you've mentioned this. Really, I'm 0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.920 a huge admirer of your mental health advocacy work you do. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.960 You on for the Inspiring Children Foundation and the wellness 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.880 practices that you have on Jewel Never Broken dot com. 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.400 Everyone should check it out, especially after the last two 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.840 years we've had. I've found so many of the practices 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.760 that you've shared so helpful personally. And you've mentioned the 0:15:15.800 --> 0:15:19.280 notion of using anxiety as an ally and as an 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.520 anxious person myself, I found this to be a very 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.200 hopeful sentiment. Um And I think, as you mentioned, a 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.680 lot of us are trying to eliminate anxiety or pain 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.000 from our lives, which is kind of a fool's errand 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:31.800 um And you used writing, I mean, what are some 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:35.040 other ways that that you know you you suggest, um 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:42.360 turning this anxiety into something productive for people? UM, I 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.800 guess I just start by saying, you know, mindfulness For me, 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.840 I would just give a definition. It means being consciously present. 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.760 That's it. You know, this is a word we hear 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:53.280 all the time, and it's kind of a word we 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.200 don't really know what it means. So mindfulness is being 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.880 consciously present. It doesn't mean that will your life will 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.640 change instantly. It just means you'll be consciously present, which 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.040 puts you in a position to change your life. I 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.680 liken it to a car. If your body was a car, 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.440 your brain isn't the driver. It's like a steering wheel, 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.440 but it can go on autopilot, a neurological autopilot if 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:18.680 you're not consciously present to drive the car. So being 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.840 consciously present is like getting off of autopilot and getting introl. 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.240 Being a neutral won't change your life, but it gets 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:26.240 you in a position to get in a new gear. 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.480 What actually will change your life is what I call mindfulness, 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:35.360 and motion is something practicable. Now that you're consciously present, 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.480 what are you going to do with that? Um? So 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.120 I notice I'm angry. I stop I take a breath, 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:45.200 I get consciously present. I'm now observing. Okay, I'm I'm angry. 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.800 Now what do I want to do? That is that 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:52.360 gap where you stop and insert a new tool instead 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.240 of you know, just reacting off of an old tool, right, 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.320 yelling you're stop in your breathe. Okay, Okay, I really 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:00.760 want to yell, but I'm not going to actually going 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.960 to go right or call my therapist or call of friends. Whatever. 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.640 The new thing is that changes your life, that actually 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.160 starts to starve old neural networks and help you build 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:15.240 new ones. UM. And for some reason, I don't know why, 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:20.159 but when I was homeless, I I started developing songs 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.639 and I started developing these tools for myself just to 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.000 get results, ready to make myself stop feeling, to help 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.240 myself with panic attacks. And I would tackle it one 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:31.600 pain point at a time. Right, I would tackle steeling 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:33.480 and that's all I would focus on. Or I would 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:35.879 tackle my panic attacks and that's what I would focus on. 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.840 And so those skills are what I've been able to 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.680 share and create curriculums out of UM without therapy. Not 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:47.000 that I'm against therapy, it's just that that everybody has access. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.520 And so what about those people? You know, what about 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.560 kids that don't have support systems or therapists or god forbid? 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:54.480 What if your therapy just isn't getting you the change 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:57.760 you want? Does that mean you're unlucky? You know? Can 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.320 you still be happy? Um? And so that's what really 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.040 been striving me. Yeah, these last several years. One of 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.960 those concepts is anxiety as an ally. UM. For me, 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.400 when I figured this out, it just really changed everything. 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.639 Nothing can change in isolation, right, Imagine it just like 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.120 chemical chemical or chemistry. Like can we have an atom? 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.680 It will stay itself unless it's introduced to something new, 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:25.560 like fire or something. Now it's chemical composition can begin 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.600 to change. It happens in relationships. So we try to 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:34.280 disassociate from an aspect of our own personality. We cannot 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.119 expect it to change. We can only expect it to 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.400 maybe to not notice it, to do something louder. Right, 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.560 That's why we get high risk behaviors to drown out 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:47.440 the pain of our anxiety. Let's say, but you actually 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.080 have to invite it closer, because your anxiety is your 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:54.359 body's way of saying, you just consumed something that doesn't 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:57.479 agree with you. It's a thought of feeling for an 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:01.800 action or an interaction. So I started to get excited 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.720 every time I was anxious and go Okay, then I'd 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:06.480 stopped and I go, what was I just thinking? Feeling 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.280 or do? And it was hard right to identify the 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.480 thought that gave me that anxiety, because sometimes we think 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.040 things without noticing we think them, and our whole body triggers. 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:18.439 You know. Um, But if you stay really faithful to that, 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.960 and you get curious and invite your anxiety closer, and 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.240 then more importantly, if you can abstain from it, you're 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:26.679 going to make a huge change in your life. You know, 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:28.959 if you can say, all right, I'm no longer going 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:31.600 to allow myself to beat myself up because every time 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.200 I say X to myself, I feel crappy. I'm going 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.639 to insert a different thought and you have to be 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:41.359 willful about it. But it really does change. I mean, 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:45.040 just getting to the place of actually being excited to 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.040 experience your anxiety because you know that your body trying 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:49.840 to tell you something. I mean, that's that's gonna be 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:51.920 a tough place to get to. I imagine too, because 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:54.920 that that takes a certain amount of courage, because it's uncomfortable. 0:19:54.920 --> 0:20:02.160 Anxiety is thankful. Yeah, And so you know, dysfunction is painful. 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.679 Feeling is painful, it's hard healing, it's hard work. But 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:10.800 at least there's a better possible outcome, not a guarantee, 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:12.520 but at least there is light at the end of 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:15.600 that tunnel. Whereas I already know me running from my 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:19.480 anxiety doesn't work, you know, so that's a known outcome, 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.040 and so you do kind of have to be a 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:25.159 little bit logical um, which is kind of funny in 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.160 a mindfulness practice, but you kind of have to go, Okay, 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.160 I've tried a thing that doesn't work and makes me six. 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.760 Am I willing to try something new? Am I willing 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:35.879 to look at it like an experiment and take notes 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:38.320 and see if there's a difference. And that's where it 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:40.920 kind of gets fun is you should see a difference. 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:43.920 It's not like, oh I think I think I feel better. 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.760 It's like, holy smokes, I was able to stop my 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.040 panic attacks. You know, you start to see real changes 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.399 and that begins to be rewarding. Like working out. You know, 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:53.760 when you start working out, it sucks. So you start 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.040 like developing an app, and you're like all right, I'm 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:03.360 into it. The payoff. Yeah. Was there at any kind 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.399 of a lightbulb moment or a moment for you where 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:10.320 songwriting went from being sort of an exercise in mindfulness 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.119 and something that was more for you to being something 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.080 that gave you a career direction, was something that you 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:21.240 kind of wanted to let other people into. Mm hmm. 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.080 Let's see. I mean I was singing with my dad 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.360