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Speaker 1: Bodybags. But Joseph Scott Morgan, you know, there's something about

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Speaker 1: the love of a mother. I'm not saying that fathers

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Speaker 1: don't love their kids, but it's almost like this intuitive

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Speaker 1: thing that mamas have. You know, It's amazing a mother

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Speaker 1: can look at her child and just know something is wrong. Today,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about a case here on Bodybags that

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Speaker 1: involves a mother, and not just any mother. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about a mother who actually did the job of a

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Speaker 1: detective and solved the murder of her very own daughter.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Well, good

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Speaker 1: to be with you again, brother Dave. I spent some time,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of meditating on this case a bit,

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Speaker 1: and I you know, I reached back in time and

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Speaker 1: was thinking about the things that my mother understands about me.

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Speaker 1: And even at this stage in life, I can give

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Speaker 1: her a phone call and if there's something going on

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Speaker 1: in my life, she will say before I ever say

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Speaker 1: it or make reference to it, what's wrong. And there's

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Speaker 1: just something I do that with Noah too, with my son.

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Speaker 1: But the relationship that Kemmy has with with with Noah

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Speaker 1: is completely different. There it's almost like a sixth sense

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Speaker 1: that mamas have about things. And and that's why it's important,

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Speaker 1: I think, to talk about this case today because there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people out there that have no

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Speaker 1: support system in their life. They're kind of cast adrift

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Speaker 1: in in you know, on this on this ocean of

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Speaker 1: pain and misery in this journey. But even in this

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Speaker 1: case goes this case goes to how far a mother's

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Speaker 1: love extends even beyond the grave. Dave Well.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times when we have this story about

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Speaker 2: a suicide, a reported suicide, oftentimes family members have a

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Speaker 2: difficult time understanding what happened. They didn't see it coming,

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Speaker 2: or what have you. And in this particular case, show

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Speaker 2: when April Holt, twenty nine year old woman is it

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Speaker 2: dies and it's ruled a suicide, and her mother was

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Speaker 2: privy to information that others weren't because they had one

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Speaker 2: on one conversations that were not open discussions in front

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Speaker 2: of other people, and so mama knew that there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of unhappiness in the relationship. Mama knew that

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Speaker 2: April had tried to leave the marriage previously, and two

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Speaker 2: weeks before had actually told her husband, Donovanholt, that she

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Speaker 2: wanted a divorce, it was over. And so with mother

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Speaker 2: having all of this information and knowing things again that

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Speaker 2: even friends didn't know that was happening, when her death

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Speaker 2: was ruled a suicide, Mama didn't. It wasn't just the denial.

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Speaker 2: Mama had actual evidence in her heart and her head

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Speaker 2: pointing to a different reason for her death. And so

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Speaker 2: when when the mother took her own feelings and then

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Speaker 2: matched it up with the evidence, she just couldn't get

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Speaker 2: from here to there because she's not a detective. So

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Speaker 2: she learned, and it was through her her process of

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Speaker 2: learning what detectives do and what kind of forensic evidence

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Speaker 2: they need, that she was able to actually put together

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Speaker 2: a case for murder against Donovan Holt, a very convincing case,

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Speaker 2: and even though it still took time, eventually it was

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Speaker 2: the work of April Holt's mother that actually caused her

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Speaker 2: death to not be ruled a suicide. In this case

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Speaker 2: with April Holt and Donovan Holt, a lot of it

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Speaker 2: was very nuanced in that not everybody knew what was

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Speaker 2: going on in the relationship. But April Holt's mother did know.

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Speaker 2: Her name is Jamie Dickerson, and she was not silent

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Speaker 2: about what she knew. She was very careful, very smart lady,

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Speaker 2: and she's the reason her daughter is getting some form

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Speaker 2: of justice, if that's possible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and again we're going to touch on that too,

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Speaker 1: because huh, many times justice is relative, and in this

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Speaker 1: case that's a hit scratcher in and of itself. We

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Speaker 1: begin to kind of compartmentalize the narrative that we have learned.

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Speaker 1: But I want to go back to the circumstances relative

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Speaker 1: to this case, because Mama has had this. This case

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Speaker 1: first popped off in July of twenty twenty three. And

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Speaker 1: you know, one of my favorite, one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: lines in Shawshank Redemption is when Morgan Freeman is narrating

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Speaker 1: that movie and he says, he makes reference to this

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Speaker 1: idea of time and pressure. You know, it takes time

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Speaker 1: to form rocks. Because the protagonist in the movie Andy,

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Speaker 1: though he's an inmate, he calls hisself a rock count.

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Speaker 1: He loves to look at geology and pick up stones

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Speaker 1: in the prison yard. And it's about patience and understanding

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Speaker 1: time and understanding the pressure. Can you imagine the pressure

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Speaker 1: that a mother is under when she is you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of that lone voice in the wilderness calling out

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Speaker 1: because of her deceased daughter, and she's had time to

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Speaker 1: think about this, and I'll go ahead and kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, give something away here. You know, this case

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Speaker 1: involving Mishold has in fact been adjudicated. That's one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons, you know that you and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. And it's quite amazing. There was actually

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Speaker 1: an arrest affected in September of twenty twenty four. But

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Speaker 1: it's all about the efforts of the mother, you know,

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Speaker 1: you think about, you know, those things that going behind

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Speaker 1: closed doors. My wife talks to her mother just about

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Speaker 1: every day. I think I talked to my mother, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know two or three times a week. And

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Speaker 1: there's there's things that happen during that period of time

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Speaker 1: when information is conveyed, and some of this some of

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Speaker 1: this information is stuff that you know, parents don't want

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Speaker 1: to hear necessarily, not that they don't want to hear,

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Speaker 1: but they would they would prefer that their child be

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Speaker 1: in a happy, secure, loving relationship.

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Speaker 2: So I was going to say, Joe, it's like, not

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Speaker 2: like we don't want the truth, we just want to

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Speaker 2: hear that everything's hunky dory and you're having the time

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Speaker 2: of your life. You know, that's what we want as parents.

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Speaker 2: That's because that's what we want for you as our child.

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Speaker 2: But the truth is oftentimes a lot different. I'm very

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Speaker 2: curious Joe, as to a scene that when police walk

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Speaker 2: into it. And I've asked you about this before because

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Speaker 2: I'm it's not something I've ever done from this standpoint

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Speaker 2: of police come into a scene, and how much weight

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Speaker 2: do they give to the person that they're talking to

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Speaker 2: at the time. In this case, you have a nine

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Speaker 2: to one one call that is made, and so you

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Speaker 2: have some information from the husband, Donovan Holt. But when

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Speaker 2: police are coming in and they're looking at what is

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Speaker 2: in front of them, do they immediately start making mental

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Speaker 2: notes that this doesn't really add up or seems like

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Speaker 2: that could have happened. I mean, what's going on in

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Speaker 2: that process until you actually get there to break it down?

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Speaker 2: Because she was I don't want to get too far ahead,

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Speaker 2: but she wasn't dead. She did not die right away. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: the victim here, April Holt, actually did live. So as

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Speaker 2: we back it up and set it up that it

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Speaker 2: was an apparent suicide, is that not how it was

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Speaker 2: brought about? By police when they got on the scene.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. And one of the big problems that

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Speaker 1: you have with cases is the report. You know, that

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Speaker 1: individual that we've discussed before, that role that is played

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Speaker 1: at the scene regarding you know, subjects that either find

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Speaker 1: the body. And again that's another category that we talk

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Speaker 1: about finders finders.

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Speaker 2: And you know, until we started doing this that never

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Speaker 2: occurred to me. Well for a while, you yeah.

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Speaker 1: Come up with these little uh uh names or categories.

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Speaker 2: Where's the finder, where's the finder?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, where's the finder? And that's and that that is

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Speaker 1: in the common vernacular at the scene. Most of the

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Speaker 1: time you will hear say things like, uh, who's the

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Speaker 1: finder of where's the finder? And then who's the reporter?

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Speaker 1: Because they can be two different people. But as you know,

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Speaker 1: when you have these intimate relationships where people are, you know,

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Speaker 1: living beneath the same roof, there's high probability it's going

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Speaker 1: to be an intimate you know, like spouse and this

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Speaker 1: is no different. So back to your question though, it

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Speaker 1: is and I would say this to anybody, those that

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Speaker 1: I instruct and those of those in our audience that

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Speaker 1: are interested in becoming investigators or perhaps forensic scientists. I

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Speaker 1: can't urge you strongly enough to not believe everything you

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Speaker 1: see and not to believe everything you hear, because you

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Speaker 1: ever seen seeing a picture of a bull with a

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Speaker 1: ring in their nose, and that's you know, so they

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Speaker 1: can be led around and unfortunately, instead of being in

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Speaker 1: control of the scene, individuals, investigators many times allow themselves

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Speaker 1: to be led around by the nose, by the finder,

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Speaker 1: by the reporter. And that's a very dangerous position to

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Speaker 1: be in because you make these wild assumptions. You just

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Speaker 1: just assume that what you're seeing is actually a suicide,

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Speaker 1: or what you're being told is actually a suicide. And

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Speaker 1: that is a very very slippery intellectual slope day because

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Speaker 1: once you start down that path of assuming that something

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Speaker 1: is in fact a suicide, that scene begins to be

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Speaker 1: handled completely different than, say, for instance, if it was

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Speaker 1: a homicide, because first off, the population inside of a

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Speaker 1: death scene reduces dramatically if it's a homicide. If it's

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Speaker 1: a suicide, you'll have if you go with that assumption,

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Speaker 1: you'll actually have people that are coming and going out

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Speaker 1: of the scene and they're not treating it in a

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Speaker 1: secure manner, and that's a very dangerous position to be in,

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Speaker 1: because all of a sudden you lose sight of what

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Speaker 1: the goal is determining specifically what happened in a particular case.

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Speaker 1: Do not predispose yourself to intellectual dishonesty, I think, and

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Speaker 1: ignoring any kind of physical evidence that might be there.

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Speaker 1: And I got to tell you the physical evidence that

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Speaker 1: was found at the scene of the death with miss

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Speaker 1: Holt and also at the autopsy. But in addition to that,

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Speaker 1: what miss Holt's mother observed is a tale that only

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Speaker 1: she could tell. I was not the greatest investigator in

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Speaker 1: the world. I am quick to admit that. I think

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Speaker 1: you see people in media many times that try to

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Speaker 1: portray themselves as being the individuals without measure. In the

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Speaker 1: world of investigations and even in forensics, I was chief

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Speaker 1: amongst sinners as far as failure goes. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things, Dave that always haunts me as now a

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Speaker 1: college professor. I wonder how many I missed. I wonder

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Speaker 1: how many times I predisposed myself to these wild assumptions

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Speaker 1: where I ran with it and I begin to be

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Speaker 1: part of the narrative, you know, I'm painting the story.

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Speaker 1: For instance, the police that are there and eventually where

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Speaker 1: the remains are going to be or where they are

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Speaker 1: going to wind up to be examined by the forensic pathologists.

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Speaker 1: Keep in mind, the forensic pathologist is not at the scene, okay,

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Speaker 1: it's the emmy investigator of the corner investigator that's doing

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Speaker 1: what my former job was. And I wonder how many

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Speaker 1: times I miss something because there's all kinds of crazy

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Speaker 1: things you see in the field. And I think, if

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Speaker 1: memory serves me correctly, it was the mid nineties and

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden the world of death investigation opened

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Speaker 1: up in many different ways. But also we had a

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Speaker 1: manifestation of cases that were referred to as final exit cases,

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Speaker 1: which are bizarre. It's a different type of investigation. And

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, Dave, initially what I was

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Speaker 1: hearing about Missus Holt's death really made me, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of go back in tom and think about think

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Speaker 1: about final exit cases.

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Speaker 2: So this is something that you and I have covered

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Speaker 2: a couple of times on body bags thus so far,

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Speaker 2: where something appears to be a suicide but isn't. And

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Speaker 2: I think, I actually, you know what, in two of them,

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Speaker 2: it was police officers or a highway patrolman somebody in

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Speaker 2: law enforcement that actually staged the murder to look like

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Speaker 2: a suicide. Now, in this case, we're not dealing with that.

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Speaker 2: So I'm wondering when you arrive on the scene, investigators,

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Speaker 2: forensic and others, that you whereas April Holt was not dead,

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Speaker 2: she actually was transported to the hospital on life support

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Speaker 2: and lived for a few days. If I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 2: and I hate being wrong about that. It's just my

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Speaker 2: head's little cloudy with this right now. But when how

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Speaker 2: much evidence did they lose in that process of here's

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Speaker 2: she's found, she's taken down. Well, first of all, let's

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Speaker 2: go back to how she was found. What did Donovan

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Speaker 2: Holt say Aprilholt's condition was when he found her or

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Speaker 2: when his son found her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what he's saying is that when he observed her,

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Speaker 1: she was found with actually a back over her head.

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Speaker 1: And anytime you hear that, it's generally many times it's

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Speaker 1: kind of a a theatrical device. You'll see it in movies,

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Speaker 1: you know, where people will take a bag, a plastic

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Speaker 1: bag and put it over an individual's head and suffocate them.

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Speaker 1: But one of the reasons I was making reference to

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Speaker 1: final exit is that Final Exit is a book that

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Speaker 1: was written, you know, a couple of decades ago by

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Speaker 1: a fellow who had watched his wife language with bone

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Speaker 1: cancer and he made the decision to create a how

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Speaker 1: to guide of how to take your own life. And

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Speaker 1: it's referred to as Final Exit by many that are

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Speaker 1: in that world. They consider it to be the ultimate authority, painless.

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Speaker 1: They don't call it suicide. They call it self deliverance.

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Speaker 1: And one of the methodologies, and literally, Dave, the most

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Speaker 1: common methodology that I came across as a death investigator

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Speaker 1: was the utilization of a plastic back to take one's

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Speaker 1: own life. And he had suggested and kind of laid out,

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Speaker 1: you know, Humphreys, this guy that wrote this book, that

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Speaker 1: an individual would take medication bag over their head and

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Speaker 1: just kind of slowly drift off and go to sleep

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Speaker 1: as a result of oxygen deprivation and being so knocked

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Speaker 1: out by the drugs that are on board that they

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Speaker 1: would not have an awareness of. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: he even went so far as to talk about putting

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Speaker 1: ice cubes in the bag so that you would not

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Speaker 1: be rebreathing your own heated carbon dioxide. You wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: an awareness of it. You're still breathing, rebreathing, you know,

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Speaker 1: carbon dioxide that you've expelled and now you're taking it

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Speaker 1: up again. But he went so far to talk about

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Speaker 1: ice cubes in the bag because of how uncomfortable that

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Speaker 1: hot area. So just you know, give that a thought,

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Speaker 1: if you will, for a second. So, anytime I ever

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Speaker 1: encountered a case with a plastic bag that was adjacent

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Speaker 1: to the body or on the body, automatically, and again

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Speaker 1: this is that predisposition that I was talking about, and

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Speaker 1: that's why this is so dangerous. I would automatically be thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: this is And we had a term, you know, you

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Speaker 1: say you had said that we have a term for everything,

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Speaker 1: and we literally had a classification for these deaths. We

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Speaker 1: call them final exit cases. And of course afterwards you

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Speaker 1: go around the scene and you know, look around the

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Speaker 1: house to see if you can find a copy of

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Speaker 1: that volume around there, you know, where an instructional volume,

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Speaker 1: to see if this individual had had exposure to it,

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Speaker 1: was reading about it or anything like that. The thing

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Speaker 1: about it is is that with most of those cases,

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Speaker 1: somebody had been diagnosed with some kind of terminal event

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Speaker 1: in their life and they didn't have any other choice,

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Speaker 1: and they wanted a quote unquote painless way to go,

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Speaker 1: and they don't I may have mentioned this, but it

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Speaker 1: bears repeating. They don't call it suicide. They call it

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Speaker 1: self deliverance. And so when you know the police are

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Speaker 1: there and you've got Holt that it's telling them that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when when she's discovered this bag, there's literally a plastic

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Speaker 1: bag around her neck, he begins to drop these hints

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Speaker 1: that this is a suicide, and of course he's he's

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Speaker 1: I think it's feigning an attempt, but he's making an

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Speaker 1: attempt to save her life, and I don't know, for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, that very well may have extended her life.

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Speaker 1: You know, where she goes to the hospital, she never

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Speaker 1: regains consciousness, and you know, by that time she's been

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Speaker 1: so deprived of oxygen. She's in you know what pilots

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Speaker 1: refer to as a flat spin. You can't recover from it.

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Speaker 1: Your brain can't function because it's literally been strangled of

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Speaker 1: the oxygen. So you you're on a machine at this

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Speaker 1: point in time. And that's that's essentially what looking at

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Speaker 1: And I think that you know, most of the authorities

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Speaker 1: involved in this, for whatever reason, you know, they look

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Speaker 1: at this case or case like this, and I think, okay,

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Speaker 1: well we can close the books on this. This is

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Speaker 1: a suicide. But again, this is where Mama comes in, Dave,

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Speaker 1: and she's she's seen things relative to her daughter and

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Speaker 1: then kind of putting two and two together and trying

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Speaker 1: to understand that it just it doesn't make sense. It

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Speaker 1: just doesn't add up. You know.

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Speaker 2: The one thing that I actually saw in this with

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Speaker 2: regard to Mom is that when April was found unresponsive

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Speaker 2: with plastic bag tightly taped tightly around her neck tape.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for reminding me of that, by the way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's because that Scott. Can I just interject, please just

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Speaker 1: for a second, the idea that this bag is taped

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Speaker 1: around the bottom and it's they don't describe it as

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Speaker 1: being lightly taped. It's like taped, I mean, like heavily

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Speaker 1: taped around the bottom. I've never encountered a case like

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Speaker 1: that where someone is attempting to take their own life

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Speaker 1: and they would tape the bag. It's generally done in

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Speaker 1: the open. Now, I'm not saying that people couldn't do that.

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Speaker 1: What I'm merely saying, though, is that when you see

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Speaker 1: that amount of tension placed. That takes some effort, you know,

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Speaker 1: in order to facilitate that. I'm sorry I stepped on you.

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Speaker 2: Go ahead, Oh you didn't. That's what I was going

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Speaker 2: to ask you. Because for anybody who's ever put on

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Speaker 2: a costume or you know, done something like that, taping

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Speaker 2: something like that on yourself is not an easy task.

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Speaker 2: Doing it to somebody else is not difficult, you know,

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Speaker 2: you wrap the tape around, But to do it to yourself,

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Speaker 2: that's more involved than it is doing it to someone else.

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Speaker 2: That's part one. Part two is that it was April's

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Speaker 2: mother that actually noticed bruises, because, as I mentioned, April

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Speaker 2: did not die in that shower stall where she was found.

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Speaker 2: She was taken down from whatever position she had been placed,

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Speaker 2: you know, and her mom said she noticed bruises on

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Speaker 2: her neck and ankles, as well as broken blood vessels

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Speaker 2: on her cheeks. Now, are those common occurrences in a

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Speaker 2: suicide self harm? What have you hanging? I mean, do

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Speaker 2: you get bruises on your neck and ankles?

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Speaker 1: No? No, not not with Well let me clarify. You

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Speaker 1: don't see this with the assocciation with a bag, because

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Speaker 1: you're talking about specific pressure points that are that are

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Speaker 1: taking place if you're talking about say, pressure being applied

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Speaker 1: to the neck. But also you know April's mother had

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Speaker 1: in addition to this, she had mentioned that there were

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Speaker 1: facial manifestations as well that she and I found this

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Speaker 1: fascinating because you don't see this a lot, Dave, that

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Speaker 1: she had broken vessels on her cheeks. Now, that's a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of pressure that would have had to have

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Speaker 1: been applied for a protracted period of time. And the

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Speaker 1: reason it's so it's so profound is that most of

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Speaker 1: the time when we're talking about patiki, we're referring to

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Speaker 1: those tiny little vessels and their delicate day they're very,

345
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Speaker 1: very delicate. That that burst in the sclare of surfaces

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Speaker 1: of the of the eyes and inside of the lids,

347
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Speaker 1: and they're very delicate. That's not what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about, according to the mother, broken blood vessels

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Speaker 1: in the cheeks, which are much more robust. So if

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Speaker 1: you have that, then that's an indication that there's a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of pressure being applied that would facilitate that,

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Speaker 1: that would hold the blood in place until the tension

353
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Speaker 1: in that vessel. In those vessels that are delivering blood

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Speaker 1: supply to the face. The structural integrity of those vessels

355
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Speaker 1: is so compromised that they even though they're so robust,

356
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Speaker 1: they're going to burst. And you know, it's weird day

357
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Speaker 1: with Mama. She had this intuition about this. You know,

358
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Speaker 1: how did she know that? You know, how did she

359
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Speaker 1: know that about if she's kind of doing the calculus

360
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Speaker 1: here and she's factoring in this idea of an asphyxial

361
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Speaker 1: death a homicide. You know, she's taking note of this

362
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Speaker 1: all along. And here's the thing. You know, if someone

363
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Speaker 1: is on ICU okay and they're being treated by the

364
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Speaker 1: clinical staff. This is not to insult those people because

365
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Speaker 1: you know, Lord knows I've been and I see you.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't be here, uh if it weren't for those people,

367
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Speaker 1: because they're great at what they do. But Dave, they

368
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Speaker 1: are not there to do a forensic assessment on anyone.

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Speaker 1: They're there to save life, or at least sustain life

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Speaker 1: as long as they can until they pull the person

371
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Speaker 1: back from the edge. Well, Mama's looking at this in

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Speaker 1: a different you know, in a different light completely, and

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Speaker 1: you know, kudos to her because if she hadn't there,

374
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Speaker 1: you know, we may not have had the conclusion of

375
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Speaker 1: this case that we've had, Dave. You know how I

376
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Speaker 1: mentioned that that trait that mothers just seemed to intuitively

377
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Speaker 1: have where they're going to look at things, they're going

378
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Speaker 1: to listen, and they're they're going to press until they

379
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Speaker 1: get the answers they want. It dovetails with what I

380
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Speaker 1: just mentioned. It's not just that they recognize something. It's

381
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Speaker 1: that if a mother is on the scent of something

382
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Speaker 1: that is going on with their child, they don't stop

383
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Speaker 1: asking questions. I mean, And in this particular case, what's

384
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: so amazing is that not only not only did mama

385
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: make her own assessment of her baby girl that is

386
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Speaker 1: now deceased, she begins to press the husband in this case,

387
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: she's pressing him like she's a detective. She's actually trying

388
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Speaker 1: to draw information out of him. And dude, she succeeded. Man,

389
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Speaker 1: how many times have you ever heard of that?

390
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Speaker 2: In this particular case, Joe, I was looking at it

391
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 2: to determine, you know, how did she go about getting this?

392
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Speaker 2: You know, how did she go about doing it? You know,

393
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Speaker 2: how did she get this info from the guy? And really,

394
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 2: I think you're right, she not wearing him down, but

395
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,479
Speaker 2: I think questioning his answers, you know, following up on

396
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 2: what he told nine to one one dispatch, what he

397
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 2: told police. You know, there's documentation on all of this,

398
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: and she's looking at it going, I know my daughter

399
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: was trying to leave. She had tried to leave before unsuccessfully,

400
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: and two weeks prior to this she told him I'm out,

401
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: I'm getting a divorce. They did share a son together,

402
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 2: and so there's a lot going into that, you know,

403
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 2: when you make the decision to end the relationship. And

404
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: her mother was aware of all this, and so Donovan Holt,

405
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: the husband, he wasn't going to get by with making

406
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 2: a light of this. I mean, he had to answer

407
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: questions of mom, and I think he felt like he

408
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: could spin it maybe, But what he didn't realize is

409
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: that while she was getting information, I don't know where

410
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: background Okay, I don't know what she assumed going in.

411
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: I know what she knew in terms of the basics

412
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 2: you know, of her daughter wanting to leave. But we

413
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: do know that eleven months after her death is ruled

414
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: a suicide. That missus Dickerson Jamie Dickerson, the mother of

415
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 2: April Holt, did a FaceTime call with the husband and

416
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: got Donovan Holt in this FaceTime call, and she recorded

417
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: it and got into admit what or I was gonna say,

418
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 2: Admit what had happened? Maybe tell the truth or maybe

419
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: tell the full truth or a partial truth that was

420
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: enough to say it was not a suicide. He actually

421
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: tells Jamie Dickerson because she never believed April's death was

422
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: a suicide, never ever believed, and he gave her the answers.

423
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: He felt like, what would get her off his back?

424
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: You know, that's all I can figure.

425
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: And yeah, and in the midst of this confession, I

426
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: think that it's very important. There is a confession here

427
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: that he makes to her, according to her, and now

428
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: this has been adjudicated, so the courts have looked at this.

429
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: He actually tells April's mother that they were in the

430
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: midst of having sex and he begins to choke her

431
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: out as part of sex play and it went too far.

432
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: And as a result of it going too far, you know,

433
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: he frames it as though that he freaked out, he

434
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: didn't know what to do, so it's you know, he

435
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: goes and he grabs a bag, presumably puts it over

436
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: her head and tapes it up. Now, these two things

437
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: are not related. I have to stress this because he

438
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: eventually admits our stay rather that you know, that this

439
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: was as a result of a sex act. But prior

440
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: to that, he said that it was suicide and that

441
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 1: he found her with a bag around her head. So

442
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: you got a guy that's out there staging a suicide

443
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: that turns out not to be a suicide. And we're

444
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: getting closer and closer to the truth with the mother,

445
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: you know, kind of pressing him, and she as a

446
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: result of the pressing he says, oh, okay, yeah, well

447
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: I freaked out, you know, while we were having sex,

448
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: and this is me, you know, kind of thinking about

449
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: this that the reason she's got these you know, bruises

450
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: on her, you know, on her face and around her neck,

451
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: is that it was sex play and that I was

452
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: pressing down her, choking her and deprived her of breath

453
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: and it was essentially he's not admitting to a homicide here.

454
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: He's trying to say that this is an accident. Of course,

455
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: you know, after the mother gets it's this information, he

456
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: actually heads out, you know this this took place in Tennessee. Well,

457
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: he's actually eventually arrested Dave. I think in San Antonio.

458
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, they lived in a suburb of Nashville, and

459
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: he was down towards San Antonio when Dickerson got the

460
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: FaceTime call recorded and took it to police. And that

461
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: was where the Nashville or the suburb of Nashville or

462
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: police got in touch with the Texas authorities and they

463
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: got him in. And the thing is in the process

464
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: of her actually getting the information to detectives in Tennessee,

465
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: Donovan Holt realized what he had done in that admission,

466
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: and so before anybody could really get a game plan

467
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: in play of based on here's the evidence, here of

468
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: the facts, he goes right in and admits it. He

469
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: cops to it right away. Okay, look this here's what

470
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: really happened. And I freaked out. It was an accident,

471
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: sex play, whatever, and so he immediately became and I

472
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: don't know how this works because I'm not in that.

473
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: I'm not an investigator, I'm not a police officer. But

474
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: he immediately went in or not immediately. This is September

475
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: now of twenty twenty four. He confesses, Okay, July twenty

476
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: twenty three, April Holt is, you know, ruled a suicide.

477
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: June twenty twenty four, eleven months later, Donovan Holt tells

478
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: Jamie Dickerson, April's mother, that she died during sex play

479
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: and he freaked out and staged it. Then between the

480
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: time he tells her that in June and the time

481
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: of his arrest in September, he's able to concoct whatever

482
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: plan of action he has, whatever story he's going to tell,

483
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: and he goes to police with that statement, so they

484
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 2: don't even have to try him. There's no trial, there's

485
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: no nothing. He admits to this accidental death during rough sex,

486
00:33:54,240 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: and Joe, based on how this was adjudicated, they believe them.

487
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, they did believe in but that I think that

488
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: this is just as big a story as April's death

489
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: and what the mother did, because to me, it would

490
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: seem that this is a slap in the face to

491
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: every victim of domestic of violence that's out there. And

492
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: here's why. First off, there were other injuries that upon

493
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: review you could tell that she had been being banged

494
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: around for some time. She had old, old healing bruises

495
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 1: over multiple surfaces of her body. So unless she had

496
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 1: some kind of problem with equilibrium, and she's bouncing off

497
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: of furniture and you know, walls and all that sort

498
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: of thing because she can't walk correctly, or she has

499
00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 1: a problem just staying in a vertical position. There's another

500
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 1: explanation for that. But here's the thing, Dave, dude, this guy,

501
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: after admitting to the murder of his wife, hold on

502
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: to your hat here, he is sentenced to only two

503
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: years in prison. Two years, Dave, two years he is

504
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: sentenced to. Now he's leaving behind and I'd rather say

505
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 1: the mother, April has left behind two kids that are

506
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: never going to have their mama again forever and ever. Amen,

507
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: he gets out of jail by virtue of the sentence

508
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: that's been handed down after two years. And then, oh,

509
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: by the way, what a great burden he has to bear.

510
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: He has to be on probation for eight years afterwards.

511
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: But he's still walking around free. You know, he's no

512
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: longer you know, in a cell somewhere. I would love

513
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: to try to understand what level of satisfaction April's mama

514
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: has over this, because I got to tell you it's

515
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: got to be absolutely heartbreaking. First off, Yeah, I mean

516
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking. First off, that you're told that your child

517
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: has committed suicide, and then after you do your own

518
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: painstaking digging, and you're going back through all of the

519
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: evidence that you have born witness to firsthand, not to

520
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: mention anything that the me had said. Remember them agreed

521
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: that this was a suicide as well. Now she's faced

522
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: with these two, you know, essentially orphaned grandchildren, and the

523
00:36:55,120 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: prospect that their father, who murdered her daughter and their

524
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: mother at his own hand, is now going to be

525
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: out free. That's two Christmases, that's two Thanksgivings, that's two Easters.

526
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: It just there's something wrong with the economy of this.

527
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: It just doesn't balance out.

528
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 2: Dave, he was allowed to plead guilty to reckless homicide,

529
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 2: tampering with evidence, and false reporting. Okay, those are the

530
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: three main things that they got him. That he pled guilty,

531
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 2: and based on the law of the land in Tennessee,

532
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: and what he could be charged with pleading guilty or

533
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: what he could be sentenced based on, you know, pleading

534
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: guilty to reckless homicide. That they went right down the line.

535
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: Here's the sentence for that that case. And sadly, you know,

536
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 2: all I can tell you is whenever people go through

537
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 2: this and they immediately think I would take this into

538
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 2: my own hands. I don't know how you process this.

539
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: Her mother is not happy. You know that he's only

540
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: going to get two years, as you mentioned, two Christmas

541
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,439
Speaker 2: is really that's all you're going to get. Two years

542
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 2: in the slammer after murdering a woman who was trying

543
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 2: to get away from you, A woman who had been

544
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: putting up with abuse long enough that she had healing wounds,

545
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 2: a woman who two weeks prior to her death, she

546
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 2: was You really want us to believe that she wanted

547
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 2: to get away so bad and that two weeks before

548
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: had announced it, not just you, but to others, that

549
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 2: she was getting a divorce, that she was done. But

550
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: then she's going to engage in a sexual encounter with you,

551
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: who she wants to get away from, and is going

552
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: to play some kind of a sex game. You know,

553
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 2: we have to buy into a lot of garbage here, Joe,

554
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 2: to believe that that is what happened. But the bottom

555
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 2: line always the bottom line. He pled guilty to it.

556
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 2: He was sentenced by a judge. And whether you believe it's,

557
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 2: you know, a proper sentence, or whether or not the

558
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 2: victim here has received justice.

559
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: I don't know.

560
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 2: I don't think so.

561
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so either, because you cannot and listen,

562
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: there's not enough times in the joint in the world

563
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: that's going to replace April. Period. She was a daughter,

564
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: she's a mama, and she would have, I'm sure loved

565
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: to have been able to live to see her kids

566
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: graduate from high school or in their cases a junior

567
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: high school even and then high school and then going

568
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 1: with their lives. But she's been she was robbed of that.

569
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: The entire world was robbed of April's presence. And again,

570
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: I'd like to reiterate my feelings about this because you know,

571
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: every every woman that's out there that is at the

572
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: hand or was within striking distance of this person that

573
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: they live with, that is a victim of sexual assault,

574
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: this is a slap in their face. I think that

575
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: he he got away to a great degree with this,

576
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: and yeah, he's having to pay a penalty of two

577
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: years then eight years on the outside. But you know,

578
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: just think about think about if you are a victim

579
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: of domestic violence and you're in this jurisdiction and you

580
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: see this in the news, you're looking for hope. You're

581
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: hoping that somebody will help you, And I would think

582
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,400
Speaker 1: that that would be a very lonely position to be

583
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: in now, because when you see, when they see those

584
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: victims out there, they see that a man can put

585
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 1: his hands on his wife, the mother of his children,

586
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: choke the life out of her, and be penalized so lightly,

587
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: I would think that that'd be a very very hopeless

588
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:55,959
Speaker 1: position to be in. Please keep this in mind. If

589
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: you are any friend out there is involved in a

590
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: relationship that involves domestic violence, there there is, in fact

591
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 1: hope for you, and I can only in my small way,

592
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: offered this up. Here's the phone number you need to call.

593
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: It's one eight hundred seven nine nine seven two three three,

594
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: or go to the hotline dot org. This is a

595
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: toll free call. It'll be confidential, reach out, ask for help.

596
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 1: And additionally, if you know or if you yourself are

597
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: suffering with thoughts of self harm or taking your life,

598
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: there's also hope for you as well. That number is

599
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: very simple, and here you go. It's nine eight eight.

600
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: It's that simple, nine eight eight. That's the Suicide and

601
00:41:53,040 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: Crisis Lifeline. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this in spit