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Speaker 1: What's up, buddy? What's up? Man? Listeners, anytime they hear

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Speaker 1: my voice first, they know that something is up. And

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Speaker 1: at this very moment.

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Speaker 2: Either you killed me or we're running a best day.

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Speaker 1: You are down in Florida right now. By the time

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Speaker 1: this episode will be published, and I you'll be down

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Speaker 1: there with your family. I will be up in Michigan

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Speaker 1: with my family. We're both enjoying some time off. So

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Speaker 1: I've got a little story for you that it's almost

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Speaker 1: like a frugal or cheap. I'm going to call it

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Speaker 1: a frugal or crazy because recently we talked about how

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Speaker 1: you got rear ended and you replaced your van with

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Speaker 1: one that's similar to ours, but also recently your van,

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Speaker 1: the alternator in that thing crapped out. Uh huh, which

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Speaker 1: then got me thinking, wait a minute, when do alternators

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Speaker 1: typically go out? Because like, literally, our vans are basically identical.

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Speaker 1: They're pretty dang close.

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Speaker 2: In mileyre as well, yours is like any day now, Yes, exactly, Well,

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Speaker 2: I searched it and I googled it, and it's anywhere

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Speaker 2: between eighty thousand and one hundred and fifty thousand miles

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Speaker 2: and literally on the way up to Michigan. We are

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Speaker 2: going to or we have, depending on how you're listening

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Speaker 2: to this from a timing stand point, but we'll have

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Speaker 2: rolled over that one hundred and fifty thousand mile mark.

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Speaker 2: And so this is where I want to get your

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Speaker 2: get your thoughts, because I hopped on eBay, went.

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Speaker 1: To eBay Motors Guaranteed Fit. We read for them before

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Speaker 1: on the show, and I ordered an alternator for the

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Speaker 1: van proactive, proactively and in order to keep in the van,

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Speaker 1: because I didn't want us to be out in the

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Speaker 1: middle of nowhere stranded without access to a replacement part.

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Speaker 2: When you'll get trained with no with no alternator pretty quick,

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Speaker 2: you can be strained.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. So what are your thoughts? Is this? Is

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Speaker 1: this a frugal move or is this like prepper crazy territory.

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Speaker 2: It's somewhere in between. Like I think it's smart. I

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Speaker 2: think it's smart because we Yeah, being stranded with no

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Speaker 2: alternator will mess you up. But yeah, would you spend

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Speaker 2: a couple hundred bucks to fifty something like that for

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Speaker 2: the part, it's like.

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Speaker 1: One hundred and ten there you go, Yeah, all.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's pretty good. That it's definitely worth having. And

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Speaker 2: that's something that a lot of people I think might

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Speaker 2: not feel comfortable changing themselves. Probably somebody like no would

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Speaker 2: feel up well, So I asked Kate because I was curious.

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Speaker 2: I was like, man, she's gonna think I'm totally crazy,

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Speaker 2: and she.

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Speaker 1: Was actually for it. She's like, no, I think that's

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Speaker 1: a good idea. And then her next question was could

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Speaker 1: you do that yourself, like, like, should we go ahead

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Speaker 1: and get the tools necessary? And I don't think I

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Speaker 1: would do that, like go that far. But even just

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Speaker 1: having the part on hand could ensure that any basic

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Speaker 1: mechanic I think would be able to make that repair,

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Speaker 1: especially with supply chain issues right now.

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Speaker 2: And they might be like, well, we could do it,

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Speaker 2: but it's gonna be a week to get the part,

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Speaker 2: so you get it.

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Speaker 1: Ahead of time, or if they're gonna you know, they

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Speaker 1: might gouge you, but it would be different. I think

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Speaker 1: if you're driving around with like four tires in the

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Speaker 1: back of your back your truck, but alternators are pretty small.

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Speaker 1: It's like the size of the shoe box, and so

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Speaker 1: the ability for us to throw that in the trunk.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you agree, but only time will tell as

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Speaker 1: to whether or not we actually were able to take

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Speaker 1: advantage of the fact that we were driving around with

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Speaker 1: an alternator in our truck. But this is a bestie though,

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Speaker 1: and actually this episode has nothing to do with cars.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about a different kind of expense

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Speaker 1: that everyone in America has to deal with, medical expenses,

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Speaker 1: and so we want to make sure that it's the

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Speaker 1: number one factor that leads to personal bankruptcy. So not

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Speaker 1: only do you need to be prepared for medical expenses,

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Speaker 1: but on the back end, you need to know how

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Speaker 1: it is that you should be approaching paying those bills.

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Speaker 2: This episode covers all that with the man himself, the expert,

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Speaker 2: Marshall Allen. And so it's I think it's the best

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Speaker 2: episode we've ever done on saving money on healthcare. So

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Speaker 2: let's get to it. Welcome to How to Money. I'm

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Speaker 2: Joel and I'm Matt and today we're talking fighting and

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Speaker 2: winning against insane healthcare costs with Marshall Allen. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Today on the show, we're talking with Marshall is a

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Speaker 1: journalist who investigates why we pay so much for healthcare

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Speaker 1: here in America while at the same time we get

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Speaker 1: so little in return. He's the author of Never Pay

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Speaker 1: the first Bill and other ways to fight the healthcare

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Speaker 1: system and win. He is also the founder of Allan

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Speaker 1: Health Academy, which produces a curriculum of short, on demand

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Speaker 1: videos to equip and empower employees to navigate the healthcare system. Marshall,

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Speaker 1: he's been investigating the healthcare industry for fifteen years, including

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Speaker 1: over a decade at ProPublica. But we're really excited to

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Speaker 1: dive into the different ways that we can fight and

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Speaker 1: win against insane healthcare costs. Marshall, thank you for joining

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Speaker 1: us today on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's an honor to be here with you. Guys.

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Speaker 2: Marshall, We're so glad to have you. The first question

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Speaker 2: that we ask everybody who comes on the show, though,

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Speaker 2: Matt and I we really like craft beer. It's something

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Speaker 2: that we splurge on right now, even while we're trying

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Speaker 2: to save and invest well for the future. What is

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Speaker 2: that in your life? What's the thing that you splurge

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Speaker 2: on while you're trying to be good with your money.

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Speaker 3: Also, you know, guys, I hate to say say this,

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Speaker 3: but I'm really really quite boring in this way, and

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Speaker 3: so I even had to run this by my wife.

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Speaker 3: I was like, what is the thing that I splurge on,

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Speaker 3: because there are things I splurge on, but then I

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Speaker 3: try and do it in like a really frugal way. So, like,

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Speaker 3: I am a total coffee lover. I love great coffee,

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Speaker 3: but I have found that the best way to do

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Speaker 3: that at an affordable price is to roast my beans myself. Yea,

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Speaker 3: so I yeah, So I order my beans from a

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Speaker 3: website called Sweet Marias it's in Oakland. They send you

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Speaker 3: the raw beans, you can roast them up. It takes

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Speaker 3: about ten minutes to do and then your beans are

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Speaker 3: totally totally fresh and stuff you would have paid like

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty five dollars a pound for fresh roasted coffee,

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Speaker 3: I can get for like five dollars a pound. So

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Speaker 3: I hate to not. I mean, so it's a splurge,

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Speaker 3: but it's I'm doing it in an economical way.

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Speaker 1: Another one is like the best way to do it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I love a great steak, but I'm like, man,

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Speaker 3: if I go out for a steak, and this is

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Speaker 3: this is spending so many years as a journalist, right,

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Speaker 3: so journalism does not pay well. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: anyone ever told you, but the pay is so bad

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Speaker 3: and I always had a family as long as I

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Speaker 3: was in journalism. So I've got kids, and I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 3: I got to figure out a way to make the

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Speaker 3: best steak I can at home. So I love a

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Speaker 3: good steak, and then the other one. This is totally boring.

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Speaker 3: But I'm a writer and books. I mean that's I'll

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Speaker 3: buy books just like I love books. I'm actually in

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Speaker 3: the process of moving now, and I have to contemplate

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Speaker 3: getting rid of in my books. Even though I don't

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Speaker 3: read everything that I buy, I really love to buy books,

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Speaker 3: so those would be my three.

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Speaker 2: That sounds like an existential crisis, trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: which books you should part with and which ones you

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Speaker 2: should kid.

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Speaker 3: My excuse to my wife is always, look, I'm a writer.

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Speaker 3: I don't have to get rid of any of these.

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Speaker 3: It's my It's sort of my justification.

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Speaker 1: Right nice. Okay, So Marshall, you shared your secret on

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Speaker 1: how you get really good coffee at an affordable price.

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Speaker 1: You roast your own beans. How do you do that

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Speaker 1: with with a nice steak? Is there a secret? Is

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Speaker 1: there a source that you have where you buy the

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Speaker 1: really good ribbis? How do you make it work?

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Speaker 3: Well? I don't actually like raise the cows in my backyard,

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Speaker 3: if that's what you mean, and slaughter them myself. I

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Speaker 3: don't go that far, but no, it's really just a

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Speaker 3: matter of getting a good kind of meat. I just

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Speaker 3: go to the grocery store though it's nothing dramatic or

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Speaker 3: nothing secret there, and just learning how to make it properly.

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Speaker 3: You know how to sear it on both sides so

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Speaker 3: that you kind of lock the juices in, how to

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Speaker 3: cook it to the right medium, rare consistency, so it's

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Speaker 3: perfect every time. So it's just maybe learning how to

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Speaker 3: do it more than.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, especial old technique is so important. And so last

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Speaker 1: little follow up here, you're talking about coffee. What is

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Speaker 1: your favorite method of brewing? Do you like to do

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Speaker 1: the chems? Do you do pour over? Do you do AeroPress?

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Speaker 3: I could we could do an hour just on this

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Speaker 3: subject alone, because I feel like every morning for me

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Speaker 3: is the pursuit of the perfect cup of coffee. But

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Speaker 3: my standard go to method is the chemics. I feel

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Speaker 3: like you can get you know, the French press uses

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Speaker 3: too much coffee, so again it's it's just not the

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Speaker 3: most economical way. The chemics is nice for making it

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Speaker 3: for me and my wife, So I go with the chemics.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly the same here. Yeah, all right, enough about

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Speaker 1: food and Marshall's splurges. Let's get into talking about insurance

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Speaker 1: and healthcare. Marshall, what led you to spend your time

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Speaker 1: and to spend your energy covering the issue of the

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Speaker 1: American healthcare system in the first place.

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Speaker 3: Well, I started covering healthcare when I went to Las

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Speaker 3: Vegas to become a reporter at the Las Vegas Sun.

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Speaker 3: This was in two thousand and six, and when they

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Speaker 3: hired me, they hired me just as a general assignment

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Speaker 3: kind of investigative reporter. And I had never covered healthcare before.

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Speaker 3: In fact, I thought the subjects sounded totally boring, but

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Speaker 3: they asked me to cover it, and I started writing

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Speaker 3: about it. And I found really quickly that when you

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Speaker 3: write good stories about healthcare, you can get right at

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Speaker 3: two things people care about more than anything else, their

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Speaker 3: health and their money. Because every healthcare story you're talking

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Speaker 3: about people's quality of life with regard to their physical

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Speaker 3: health health, but more and more we're talking about their

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Speaker 3: quality of life with regards to their financial health. And

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Speaker 3: so I found that as long as I could lock

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Speaker 3: into one or both of those subjects and the stories

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Speaker 3: I wrote, my stories would get huge traction. So even though,

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Speaker 3: like at Pro Publica for the last few years before

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Speaker 3: the pandemic, I was writing about health insurance, that sounds

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Speaker 3: like the most boring topic in the world. Like if

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Speaker 3: you told people I'm gonna write stories about health insurance,

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Speaker 3: their eyes would totally glaze over. But if you look

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Speaker 3: at all those stories I did in a series I

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Speaker 3: called the Health Insurance Hustle, which because I'm showing how

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Speaker 3: we're getting hustled by the health insurance industry, in every

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Speaker 3: single story, I could say, this is why you reader

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Speaker 3: pay so much for healthcare. It's because of these games.

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Speaker 3: It's because of this type of deception that's in the

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Speaker 3: industry that your deductibles are so high you can't afford them,

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Speaker 3: your premiums are so out of control you can't pay

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Speaker 3: for them. And this is why we have right now

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Speaker 3: one in five of Americans with medical debt in collections.

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Speaker 3: I mean, this is a crisis of a situation. And

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Speaker 3: so when I found that I could really angle the

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Speaker 3: stories that way, even though I'm writing about something that

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Speaker 3: seems so boring, I mean, my stories would get picked up,

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Speaker 3: lots of page views, lots of interest. I'd get lots

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Speaker 3: more letters and emails. Not letters, I'm not getting letters

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Speaker 3: in the mail, but emails, phone calls from readers, postcards,

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Speaker 3: you know, things coming in over the wire. But you

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Speaker 3: know what I mean. I mean, I got so much

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Speaker 3: feedback from readers that I just continued to dig in

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Speaker 3: and dig in more on that subject.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, the word crisis. I think GE's overused,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's actually appropriate in this scenario when

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Speaker 2: we're talking about the healthcare system and Marshall. In your book,

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Speaker 2: you actually talked about one of the best experiences that

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Speaker 2: you had in the healthcare system, but there was like

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Speaker 2: this twist, this ironic twist in your story. That awesome

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Speaker 2: experience wasn't here in the United States. Can you kind

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Speaker 2: of tell us, like how that went down?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you took away my punchline though by giving l

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Speaker 3: story arab exactly. Well, so here's how it happened. My wife,

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Speaker 3: she unfortunately has gotten migraines her whole life. And so

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Speaker 3: we were traveling. We're actually in Kenya where we used

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Speaker 3: to work there. We did Christian youth work in Kenya

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Speaker 3: for three years. So we went back and took our

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Speaker 3: kids back there in twenty nineteen, and this was right

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Speaker 3: before I got the book deal actually to write this book.

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Speaker 3: And unfortunately, my wife had a migraine and it was

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Speaker 3: after hours and so we couldn't go to a doctor's

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Speaker 3: office or urgent care clinic. So we had to go

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Speaker 3: to the Nairobi Hospital, which is the big hospital there

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Speaker 3: in Nairobi. And you know here in the States, if

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Speaker 3: you go into a hospital emergency room, I mean you're

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Speaker 3: just bracing yourself for like these surprise bills, these aud

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Speaker 3: of network bills. You know, they don't give you a

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Speaker 3: price up front, and so they're gonna you don't know

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Speaker 3: what it's going to be when you get it in

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Speaker 3: the mail, you know. And here at the Nairobi hospital,

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Speaker 3: I go in and my wife is there and they say, okay,

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Speaker 3: well that'll be you know, I don't remember how much

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Speaker 3: it was thirty dollars or something for the doctor to

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Speaker 3: see you, and they've just printed up an invoice for

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Speaker 3: him for me and had me pay it right on

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Speaker 3: the spot. And I was like, what is going on here?

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Speaker 3: How is it that they're able to give me a

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Speaker 3: price up front? Whereas in the entire United States you

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Speaker 3: can't get a price up front. Then we go back

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Speaker 3: to the doctor and I'm thinking, okay, here's where they're

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Speaker 3: going to overtreat us. You know, they're going to say

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Speaker 3: they need to do a scan of her brain to

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Speaker 3: make sure there's not an aneurysm. The guy was like, hey,

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Speaker 3: it looks like she just needs some pain medication. And

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Speaker 3: my wife and I are like, yeah, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 3: So he's like, you can get it on the pharmacy.

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Speaker 3: From the pharmacy on your way out, and I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 3: here's where they're going to get us. Because drug costs

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Speaker 3: are marked up. You know, you don't know how much

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Speaker 3: it's going to be. There's all these secret spread pricing

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Speaker 3: and rebating and American drug prices. Well, here they just

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Speaker 3: were like, pay us thirty dollars and get your drugs.

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Speaker 3: And I paid them thirty bucks and I left the

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Speaker 3: hospital and my wife got what she needed and we

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Speaker 3: It was it was the most remarkable experience because we

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Speaker 3: actually engaged with an emergency room in a hospital without

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Speaker 3: feeling like we were being financially exploited because of our desperation,

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Speaker 3: and unfortunately in the United States, what happens over and

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Speaker 3: over again is that the system knows that we need care,

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Speaker 3: and we can't control when we get the care that

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Speaker 3: we need. So unlike other financial purchases like if you

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Speaker 3: buy a TV or go on a vacation or buy

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Speaker 3: a new car, those are like things we can control.

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Speaker 3: We can shop around, we can decide not to buy

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Speaker 3: the thing, we can buy a cheaper version of it.

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Speaker 3: But with healthcare, when you're sick, you know, if you're

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Speaker 3: a diabetic and you need insulin, you need that to

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Speaker 3: save your life. And unfortunately diabetes and insulin is a

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Speaker 3: tragic example. The Senate Finance Committee just put out a

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Speaker 3: report last year that showed the drug makers and the

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Speaker 3: pharmacy benefit managers, these are the insurance companies that manage

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Speaker 3: pharmacy costs. They have been jacking up the price of

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Speaker 3: insulin year after year after year without showing any improvement

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Speaker 3: in the drug itself. And so unfortunately people are diabetics

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Speaker 3: are just required to pay hundreds of dollars a month

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Speaker 3: for something ten years ago would have cost a fraction

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Speaker 3: of that cost. And so it's really a system where

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Speaker 3: the business side of the industry has identified that people

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Speaker 3: need care and they will pay any price because it's

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Speaker 3: about saving their life or saving the life of their

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Speaker 3: kid or their loved one, And so they take advantage

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Speaker 3: of that and they're exploiting us. And there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of deception in the industry. There's lots of financial pitfalls,

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Speaker 3: and so the book really breaks down how to identify

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Speaker 3: these pitfalls, what they are, and then how to navigate

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Speaker 3: around them. And then if you get hit with a

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Speaker 3: bogus bill where it's overpriced or it's inaccurate, I show

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Speaker 3: in the book step by step how to identify those

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Speaker 3: errors and overcharges in your bills, and then how to

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Speaker 3: contest them and how to fight back.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and actually we're really excited to dive into

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Speaker 1: some of those practical steps when it comes to making

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Speaker 1: sure that or not just completely getting hosed over by

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Speaker 1: hospitals in different practices. But yeah, this just goes to

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Speaker 1: show that as great of a country the US is,

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Speaker 1: we definitely have some broken industries in our lives. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and when it comes to insurance, Marshall, you know, most

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Speaker 1: of us are used to shopping around for the best

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Speaker 1: price on things, but there are multiple important factors when

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Speaker 1: it comes to shopping for health coverage, and so how

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Speaker 1: can individuals and how can families know that they are

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Speaker 1: choosing the right insurance plan for them.

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Speaker 3: Well, so that's a tough question to answer because everybody

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Speaker 3: is in such a different position when it comes to

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Speaker 3: the type of coverage that they actually need for their family.

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Speaker 3: It depends a lot on their financial situation, and it

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Speaker 3: depends a lot on how many times they feel like

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Speaker 3: they need to go to the doctor or to the hospital,

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Speaker 3: if they have chronic conditions or not, or if they're

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Speaker 3: pretty healthy. Many times, for most people working Americans, you're

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Speaker 3: in an employer sponsored health plan, so you're also limited

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Speaker 3: that way. Your employer present a set of options to

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Speaker 3: you and then you have to choose from those options.

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Speaker 3: That covers about one hundred and fifty five million Americans

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Speaker 3: or in that category, then you have maybe five percent

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Speaker 3: of all working Americans are in like the exchange plan

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Speaker 3: type of insurance plans. Those are the individual healthcare plans

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Speaker 3: that came through the Affordable Care Act, which often people

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Speaker 3: call that Obamacare. So these are the Obamacare plans. Those

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Speaker 3: can be really expensive and subsidies are available for a

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Speaker 3: lot of people depending on their income. But if you're

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Speaker 3: priced out, if you make just too much to get

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Speaker 3: those subsidies, that those are extremely expensive types of health

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Speaker 3: plans to get. And I've even seen a lot of

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Speaker 3: people now using some of the sharing plans, you know,

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Speaker 3: like there's Christian healthcare sharing ministries, and then there's others

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Speaker 3: that are not faith based at all, And these are

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Speaker 3: plans that are not insurance, but they are basically people

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Speaker 3: coming together and agreeing to pay each other's medical bills.

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Speaker 3: And they always have different types of rules and restrictions,

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Speaker 3: and you have to be very careful to check the

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Speaker 3: references of any of these plans to make sure they're

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Speaker 3: actually paying the bills like they say they are. But

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Speaker 3: I actually know some people who do these plans and

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Speaker 3: they're very they've been very happy with them. And if

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Speaker 3: you're relatively healthy and don't feel like an obvious need

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Speaker 3: for ongoing care, those plans might be might be a

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Speaker 3: good option.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like, you know, there have been more

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Speaker 2: incentives recently when it comes to getting healthcare on the exchange,

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Speaker 2: Like so many people qualify for a much lower rate

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Speaker 2: when it comes to getting healthcare that way. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm with you. Some of those health sharing plans for

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Speaker 2: people that don't qualify for those lower rates on the exchange.

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Speaker 2: They've almost become like the only place they can turn,

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Speaker 2: it seems like, And yeah, what do people need to

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Speaker 2: consider and look into before they sign up for one

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Speaker 2: of those health sharing companies, because yeah, I mean if

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Speaker 2: the premiums are three hundred dollars a month versus twenty

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Speaker 2: two hundred dollars a month, I mean, that's a huge difference,

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Speaker 2: and most people can't afford or some of those policies

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Speaker 2: that you would buy on the exchange.

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Speaker 3: Right The other issue with the exchange plans is that

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Speaker 3: you're often going to have a pretty sizeable deductible there,

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Speaker 3: and that deductible is the amount of money you have

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Speaker 3: to pay before the health plan kicks in and pays anything.

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Speaker 3: So there are a lot of people on these high

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Speaker 3: deductible health plans right now, and they are paying the

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Speaker 3: first dollar of almost every single thing that they get

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Speaker 3: care for. So you're paying your premium every month, and

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Speaker 3: then you expect your health plan to cover something for you,

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Speaker 3: but you have to pay that deductible, and sometimes that

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Speaker 3: deductible is three thousand dollars, five thousand dollars even ten

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars and so effectively you're uninsured until you've paid

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Speaker 3: out of pocket that amount. But with investigating the health

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Speaker 3: sharing plans, I would get references, so I would talk

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Speaker 3: to people who are actually on the plans and ask

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Speaker 3: them how well it's worked for them. I would look

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Speaker 3: up the reviews on Google, on Yelp, look up the

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Speaker 3: Better Business Bureau reviews for each of those plans, and

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Speaker 3: you can find out pretty quickly if things are scammy,

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Speaker 3: because it does show up pretty fast on on online reviews.

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Speaker 3: So I would check all those things. If you just

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Speaker 3: want to start exploring as a journalist, I would often

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Speaker 3: put in the name of a company or an individual

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Speaker 3: in quotes on Google, and then I would just put

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Speaker 3: PDF after it, and if you do, you know, like

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Speaker 3: to look for a PDF file with that name in it.

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Speaker 3: And it's amazing how many times that will pull up

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Speaker 3: some type of a disciplinary action or some type of

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00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 3: a regulator action, some type of public document often gets

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Speaker 3: pulled up that way. So that's kind of another little trick,

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Speaker 3: searching to see if these folks have been have been disciplined. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you just got a nose around a little bit and

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Speaker 3: see what you find very cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, our family, Marshall, we've actually been with Meta Share,

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Speaker 1: which is one of those sharing plans, and in our case,

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Speaker 1: we do we definitely do have a very high deductible

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Speaker 1: work our. It's technically called like a I forget like

408
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Speaker 1: our annual household portion I think is what it's called,

409
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Speaker 1: but it is ten thousand dollars. But in exchange for that,

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Speaker 1: our monthly premiums essentially the equivalent of what they call

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Speaker 1: a premium. It's only two hundred and fifty bucks. And

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Speaker 1: so we're experiencing dramatic savings month to month. And because

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Speaker 1: of that, we have taken that into account, and our

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Speaker 1: emergency fund is quite large to make sure that we

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Speaker 1: are able to cover that cost plan were it to arrive.

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Speaker 1: And I guess if you're looking at some of these

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Speaker 1: expensive plans on the Exchange without any subsidies, and if

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Speaker 1: you're paying a whole lot month to month, but you're

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Speaker 1: also being forced to pay a very high deductible, you're

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Speaker 1: kind of getting short changed on both ends. Like you said,

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Speaker 1: it comes down to how you use the plan, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And another thing you can do is combine what you're

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Speaker 3: doing there with a direct primary care relationship. We're seeing

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Speaker 3: more and more doctors now move to direct primary care,

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Speaker 3: which means you pay a monthly cost for unlimited care

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Speaker 3: off and from that doctor. And so this is for

427
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Speaker 3: your primary care, you know, this is so that your

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Speaker 3: family still gets your annual checkups, you get any vaccinations

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Speaker 3: or anything that you need, any type of like standard

430
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Speaker 3: healthcare that your family needs is going to be really

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Speaker 3: well taken care of. And you could probably get that

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Speaker 3: for around one hundred to two hundred dollars a month.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, those are definitely becoming more popular, and for good reason.

434
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 2: We've got more questions we want to get to with you, Marshall,

435
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 2: including how to shop around for a specific procedure in

436
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 2: advance of that procedure being done. And then also too,

437
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 2: like once a bill comes your way, how do you

438
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: fight it in order to save money. We'll get to

439
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 2: the nuts and both of that stuff right after this break.

440
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,359
Speaker 1: All right, we are back for the break. We're talking

441
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,439
Speaker 1: with Marshall Allen about health care costs. And Marshall, you know,

442
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 1: even though we're seeing near term health care costs on

443
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 1: the rise, you say that there are ways that we

444
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 1: can spend less of our hard earned money on healthcare.

445
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: What are some of the biggest levers that we can

446
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 1: pull in order to reduce that cost.

447
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 3: That's a great question. I mean, the main thesis of

448
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 3: my book is that for year after year, now for decades,

449
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 3: we have been paying more and more for our health

450
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 3: care and getting less for our money. But if you

451
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 3: look at the data about how overpriced and wasteful our

452
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 3: health care system is, we should be paying a lot

453
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 3: less money and getting a lot more for our money.

454
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 3: So that's really the argument in my book. There is

455
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 3: no justification for these high health care costs. And once

456
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,159
Speaker 3: you know that, then that empowers you to give you

457
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 3: the conviction you need to push back. So I think

458
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 3: the number one easiest way to save money on healthcare

459
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 3: is make sure that you are not getting care that

460
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 3: you don't need. It's unbelievable how much care is actually

461
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 3: deemed unnecessary in our health care system. It's maybe twenty

462
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 3: five percent of all the care that's provided is found

463
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 3: to be unnecessary. And so the trick, of course is, well,

464
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 3: how do you know what's necessary and what's not right?

465
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: You don't. You don't want to avoid getting the care

466
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 3: that you need. And so one way to think this

467
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 3: through is recognize the incentives that the healthcare system is

468
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 3: operating under. If your doctor or your surgeon or your

469
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 3: hospital only gets paid when they perform an operation or

470
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 3: they provide some type of treatment, then their incentive is

471
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 3: going to be to do more because that's how they

472
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 3: get paid. And that's just something that all of us

473
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 3: as human beings, are susceptible to the incentives that drive us. Right,

474
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 3: And so, when your doctor is recommending something that's discretionary,

475
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,439
Speaker 3: let's say it's a test or a treatment, or a

476
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 3: procedure or a drug, and you're not sure, you know,

477
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: you're just trying to figure out whether what's going on.

478
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 3: Maybe it's not an obvious case where something should be done.

479
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 3: Ask the doctor this question. Ask the doctor what happens

480
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 3: if we wait? What happens if we don't do this

481
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 3: right now? In fact, I have this happen. It comes

482
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 3: up almost every time I go to my dentist. My

483
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 3: dentist is always always trying to get me to do

484
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 3: X rays. And I'm sure your dentist is always trying

485
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 3: to get you to do X rays too.

486
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 2: Right, always pushing it.

487
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, how much have my teeth really shifted in

488
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 3: the last year or two years or six months, And

489
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,199
Speaker 3: so ask the question what happens if we wait? What

490
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 3: happens if we don't do these X rays right now?

491
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 3: Are my teeth going to fall out of my mouth?

492
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 3: Is there going to be a dramatic shift in my

493
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 3: mouth that six months from now you won't be able

494
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 3: to give me the cleaning of my teeth? What exactly

495
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 3: is going on here? And often what you find is

496
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 3: they don't have a really good answer for that question.

497
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,199
Speaker 3: So ask that question what happens if we wait? And

498
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 3: what that does is it reframes the conversation. So instead

499
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 3: of assuming that we're going to do something, you start

500
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 3: exploring the option of not doing it and finding out, Okay,

501
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 3: am I going to drop dead if I walk out

502
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 3: of here right now without doing this thing you're telling me.

503
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 3: Another thing you can show to avoid unnecessary care is

504
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 3: look at the recommendations of the US Preventive Services Task Force,

505
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 3: So any listener can google that the US Preventive Services

506
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 3: Task Force, and the task Force is a group of

507
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,959
Speaker 3: volunteer experts, all doctors, who are funded by the federal

508
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 3: government to do research and read the latest research on

509
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 3: things like preventive screening, tests. So let's say for a woman,

510
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 3: it might be a mammogram, for a guy, it might

511
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 3: be a prostate exam. These are things where they always

512
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 3: want to do these screenings to say, well, we want

513
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 3: to make sure that you don't have breast cancer, right,

514
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 3: which sounds important, and if your doctor's telling you to

515
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 3: do that, you definitely want to take their advice, right. Well,

516
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 3: the studies show that women it's not recommended to get

517
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 3: a breast examination mammogram if they don't have a history

518
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 3: of breast cancer until they're fifty years old. And yet

519
00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 3: doctors will tell women starting certainly in therefore, because that's

520
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 3: been my wife's experience, that they should be getting that

521
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 3: every year or every two years. And if you look

522
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 3: at those recommendations, they actually do not say that's a

523
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 3: recommendation based on the best scientific evidence, because what happens

524
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: is they have a lot of false negatives on those tests,

525
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 3: and it's extremely rare for younger women with no history

526
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 3: of breast cancer to get it. You can also identify

527
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 3: it with just the manual examinations. You don't have to

528
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 3: do the scans, and so that helps you avoid treatment

529
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 3: you don't need. It helps you avoid overtreatment, and they

530
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 3: have these kinds of guidelines for all different types of

531
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 3: screening tests. So check out the task force.

532
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: That's great.

533
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: I like that, and I think I like what you're saying.

534
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 2: There's a certain amount of pushback that we need to

535
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: give to I think we just instinctively trust somebody a

536
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 2: doctor or a dentist, somebody in a white lab coat,

537
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,239
Speaker 2: man or woman, whoever's providing the service, and we just

538
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: assume that whatever they tell us is the next step

539
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: we need to take. But I love that we should

540
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 2: just push back with a simple question that makes it

541
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 2: easy for us to then make sure that whatever we're

542
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: step we're taking next is in our best interest. I

543
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 2: want to know too, Marshall. The healthcare industry, it makes

544
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: it so difficult for us to become an informed consumer.

545
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: Even with the recent price transparency order from the federal government,

546
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: it's hard to know what the price should be for

547
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: any sort of service that we're looking to get. So

548
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: when we go see a doctor, how do we know

549
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: if we're being charged a fair price in the first

550
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: place before we actually sign up for that procedure that

551
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 2: we feel like it's necessary.

552
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 3: So most of the healthcare that we get is discretionary,

553
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 3: and by that, I mean you have time to actually

554
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: decide where you're going to go for that care. So

555
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 3: another really key principle to keep in mind is always

556
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 3: realize that there's huge price variation in healthcare. And so

557
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 3: you might have let's say you have to get a

558
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 3: CT scan or an X ray or an MRI. If

559
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: you're a doctor or nurse practice or whoever, that clinician

560
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: is routes you. Let's say they work for a big

561
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 3: hospital chain in your town, and so they're going to

562
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 3: route you and refer you to an imaging center affiliated

563
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 3: with your hospital. Well, research has shown and people in

564
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 3: the industry know that anytime you go to a hospital

565
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 3: for a lab test or an MRI or any type

566
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 3: of a scan, the prices are going to be way

567
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 3: higher and I mean exponentially higher than if you go

568
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 3: to an independent imaging center or an independent lab. And

569
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 3: so if you just need some type of lab test

570
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 3: or scan, identify an independent imaging center and call and

571
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 3: get the prices there. And you can also check out

572
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 3: a company called Greenimaging dot Net. Greenimaging dot Net look

573
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: them up online. They do scans and they do directpay contracts.

574
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 3: With imaging centers and so you can get a scan.

575
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 3: I talked to one guy he needed two MRIs before

576
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 3: he got back surgery. He was told that it would

577
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 3: cost nine thousand dollars if he did it through the

578
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 3: hospital MRI center. Wow, he went to Green Imaging and

579
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 3: he got both of those scans for about nine hundred dollars.

580
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: So just like in the blink.

581
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 3: Of an eye, he saved more than eight thousand dollars.

582
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 3: And he was on a high deductible plan. He had

583
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 3: a ten thousand dollars deductible, So for him, he saved

584
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: eight grand just by avoiding the hospital MRI center. And

585
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 3: so that's not something you would ever expect, right, it's

586
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: the same MRI. So why would it cost so much

587
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 3: more if you go to one location than another. And

588
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,959
Speaker 3: this is also why you don't ever want to go

589
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 3: to an emergency room. If you just have the sniffles,

590
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 3: go to your primary care doctor or go to an

591
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 3: urgent care center. But if you go to that hospital

592
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 3: emergency room, they are going to bill you much much

593
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 3: more money for the exact same service you could get

594
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 3: somewhere else at a lower price.

595
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like with music, it pays to find out

596
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: the independent bands, find those indie labs, find those indie

597
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: imaging centers, because you can save you can save a

598
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: lot of money. Catch them before they're big, you know,

599
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: like I knew, I knew them way back when only

600
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: charge a nine hundred dollars. So, Marshall your book, it's

601
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: called never pay the first bill. Got it. We know

602
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: that that should be kind of the action that we

603
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: take there, But can you explain why it is that

604
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: we actually shouldn't pay the first bill. We've talked about

605
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 1: how to get that discount ahead of time, but after

606
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: we receive the bill, why shouldn't we pay that first bill?

607
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: Well, when I say never pay the first bill, I

608
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 3: mean I'm obviously not saying never pay your bills. But

609
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 3: what I mean is the principle is never pay the

610
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 3: first bill until you have checked to make sure that

611
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 3: it's accurate and that it's priced fairly. So when you

612
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 3: get that medical bill in the mail, the first thing

613
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: you need to do is make sure your insurance plan,

614
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 3: if you have insurance, has processed it correctly. So your

615
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 3: insurance plan gives you what's called the explanation of benefits,

616
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 3: also known as an EOB, and that has a breakdown

617
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 3: of how much the bill charges were, how much the

618
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 3: agreed upon amount was that the insurance plan has agreed

619
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: to pay, and that should be some kind of a

620
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: discount off of the bill charges. Again, this is just

621
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 3: the crazy convoluted way we pay for healthcare in this country.

622
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 3: The price is not the price. They give this really

623
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: high build charge amount, and then the insurance company is

624
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 3: supposed to give you a discount off of that. So anyway,

625
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 3: you look at the bill charges, you look at the

626
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 3: price that the insurance company negotiated for you to pay.

627
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 3: You have a deductible that's going to be factored in there.

628
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 3: Maybe you might have co insurance. That's the amount that

629
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: the portion that you have to pay versus the portion

630
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 3: that your insurance plan pays, and then you have the

631
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 3: amount you owe the other last year, maybe is a

632
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 3: little more than a year ago. I got a bill

633
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 3: in the mail for two hundred and fifty dollars from

634
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 3: an urgent care center where my son had gone. And

635
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 3: they said on that bill that my insurance plan had

636
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: paid nothing, and I had not received any explanation of

637
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 3: benefits from my insurance plan, so I knew something was

638
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 3: off right now, there. So I call my insurance company

639
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 3: and they said that the bill had not even been

640
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 3: sent to them. So right there, just by checking that bill,

641
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 3: I was able to see, oh, this didn't get processed

642
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 3: by my insurance plan, and so they need to send

643
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,719
Speaker 3: it to the insurance company, not to me. So they

644
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 3: sent the bill to the insurance company right like that,

645
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 3: in five minutes, I saved two hundred and fifty dollars.

646
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 3: If I wasn't paying attention, that would have been something

647
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 3: easily that myself or my wife could have paid. And

648
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 3: so I think people also don't realize just how screwed

649
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 3: up this billing system is. You think that because it's

650
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: a doctor, you know, he has his MD. You have

651
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 3: nurses who are highly trained, you have physical therapists. They're

652
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: in fancy hospitals with really expensive equipment. So they give

653
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 3: you this aura of competence, right, and they better because

654
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 3: we're putting our lives in their hands.

655
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: Right.

656
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 3: But on the billing side, I mean it is a

657
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 3: complete mess. Some of these hospitals and insurance companies using

658
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 3: it systems from like the eighties and nineties. I mean

659
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 3: they have not updated the programming on these things, and

660
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 3: so instead they've done a bunch of patches on top

661
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 3: of patches, on top of patches. They're auto paying bills

662
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 3: millions a day. This is like a giant assembly line

663
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 3: with no quality control mechanism in place. And so if

664
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 3: you know that, then you know, Okay, there's a good

665
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 3: chance that there's an error on my bill also a

666
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 3: lot of times, so so look at the insurance company EOB.

667
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 3: Then get an itemized medical bill. So hospitals will usually

668
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 3: just give you a bill that says pay this amount.

669
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 3: They don't even tell you. They don't give you a

670
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 3: breakdown on it. Like if you went to the grocery

671
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 3: store and they just said pay this amount without telling

672
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 3: you the prices, no receipt, no receipt, right, it's like

673
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 3: having no receipt. You're like, well, come on, guys, like

674
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 3: what is what did you bill me for?

675
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: What did you do?

676
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 3: Well, when you look at those itemized bills, and it

677
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: is your right to have it, It is absolutely your

678
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 3: right to have that. When you get that itemized bill,

679
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 3: you can check and see, Okay, did they do this,

680
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 3: did they do this, did they do this? Oftentimes you'll

681
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 3: find things on there that they did not even do.

682
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 3: In fact, I just got an email from a reader

683
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 3: who said he went to his dentist again. Not to

684
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 3: pick on dentists, but this is like the dentist episode, right,

685
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 3: But he said he went to his dentist and he

686
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 3: when he saw the breakdown in the charges, there was

687
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 3: one hundred and seventy five dollars charge on there and

688
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 3: he couldn't figure out what it was. He called the

689
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 3: dentist and their billing department and they couldn't figure out

690
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 3: what it was for either. Wow, So they took it

691
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 3: off and he was again, He's like, in five minutes,

692
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 3: he saved one hundred and seventy five dollars just by

693
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 3: having them remove that.

694
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: So sometimes that gentle pushback does work, right, Or you know,

695
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: just recognizing, actually, my insurance company didn't get the bill,

696
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: and I need to make sure that they get it

697
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: and you know that they pay the portion that they

698
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: need to pay before I even consider paying. But then

699
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: you know what happens if you get an outrageous bill

700
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: and you're like, Okay, the pushback isn't working. You even

701
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 2: mentioned taking a more drastic measure like taking people to courts, right?

702
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: Is that is that another step we should consider?

703
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 3: Oh? I think this is the game changing tactic right here, guys.

704
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: So anybody who loves America, and I do love America,

705
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 3: and I know our country has problems, but I do

706
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 3: love this country. There are certain privileges we have in

707
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 3: this country that other people just do not enjoy. And

708
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 3: small claims court is one of these privileges because our

709
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 3: small claims court system is set up so that a powerless,

710
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 3: weak individual can sue using the power of our judicial

711
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 3: system and require a powerful company or individual to answer

712
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 3: for the way they are treating that weaker, less powerful individual.

713
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 3: And so when you get a bill, so let's say

714
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 3: you analyze it and you can see that it's in

715
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: error or you can see it's overpriced. So I also

716
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 3: show in the book how to check prices. And there's

717
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 3: a website called fairhealth Consumer dot org. Look up fair

718
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 3: Health Consumer and compare it to your itemized medical bill,

719
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 3: and especially you need to at the billing codes. I

720
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 3: show how to do that in the book. You can

721
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 3: look up and you can see is the price that

722
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 3: they charge me fair or not. Now, also on hospital websites,

723
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 3: they're required to post their prices, and often what you

724
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 3: see is that the cash price might even be a

725
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 3: lot less than the price that your insurance company negotiated

726
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 3: for you. So this has been standard in the industry, right.

727
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 3: Hospitals and insurance companies set prices, and then they tell

728
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 3: us to pay them, whether their fair prices or not.

729
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 3: Even if the cash price is less, they'll just tell you, oh, no,

730
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 3: that's our negotiated rate, so you have to pay it.

731
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 3: And my argument is this, Look, why should any one

732
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 3: patient pay more than any other patient for the exact

733
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 3: same service at the exact same hospital. It doesn't make

734
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 3: any sense. And so just because they say this is

735
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 3: how it's always been, I'm sorry, I don't care what

736
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 3: kind of nonsense you all are, what kind of world

737
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 3: you're living in. I don't have to agree to that.

738
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 3: I'm involved here too, and not only that, you're making

739
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 3: me pay pay for this. So small Claims court, if

740
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 3: you identify a bill that's in error or overpriced, you

741
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 3: can file a case for like twenty or thirty or

742
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 3: forty dollars in most states. You have gathered all the

743
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 3: information you need. You have the evidence you need because

744
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: in my book, I show how to get an itemized bill,

745
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 3: how to price it, how to get your medical records

746
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: and make sure they document the care you received. It's

747
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 3: easy to do this stuff. It does take some steps,

748
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 3: it takes some knowledge and learning, takes some initiative. But

749
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 3: if they will not correct it when you sue them,

750
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 3: what you do is you create a very expensive hassle

751
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 3: for them, because now the hospital has to hire their

752
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 3: own attorney for hundreds of dollars an hour to defend

753
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 3: themselves against a case. I mean, many of these cases

754
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 3: are only worth a few hundred dollars or a few

755
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: thousand dollars, and the limits in a lot of states

756
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 3: are actually quite high. Like in the state of Texas,

757
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 3: you can sue in small claims court for anything under

758
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 3: twenty thousand. In New Jersey, where I am, there's a

759
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 3: branch of circuit court here called the Special Civil Branch

760
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 3: where you don't have to have an attorney to sue someone.

761
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 3: It's just like small claims, and you can sue for

762
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 3: up to fifteen thousand dollars. So the limits are quite big.

763
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 3: Some states it's small, like three grand, but still it's

764
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 3: enough that covers a lot of these bills, and so

765
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 3: we are protected. So then think about it. They now

766
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 3: have to hire an attorney to defend themselves. It's going

767
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 3: to cost them a lot of money. You are giving

768
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 3: them the incentive that they need to come to the

769
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 3: table and give you a fair price instead of price gouging.

770
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 3: You give me the price that's fair. I'm happy to

771
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: pay a fair price. But what I don't want to

772
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 3: do is just let you rip me off. And that's

773
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 3: what I'm trying to encourage people to do.

774
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 2: Let's say the hospital reaches back out, but before you

775
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: get to the lawsuit territory, right, you have not sued

776
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: them yet because you're not at that point. And the

777
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 2: hospital's like, listen, we love you. We're going to put

778
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: you on a payment plan. What should you say when

779
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: that happens.

780
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 3: Oh, that's always their solution. That's always their solution, is

781
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: to put you on a payment plan. Sending people into

782
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,919
Speaker 3: debt is not the answer for a dysfunctional and ridiculously

783
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: overpriced healthcare system, and that's been their go to method. Oh,

784
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 3: we'll just put you on a payment plan. I talked

785
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 3: to a woman the other day. In fact, this was

786
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 3: at a conference where I was speaking. This woman raises

787
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 3: her hand, she tells this, I've never heard anything like this.

788
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 3: She had a colonoscopy where they build her fifteen thousand

789
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 3: dollars for the colonoscopy. Oh my gosh, fifteen thousand dollars.

790
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 3: You talk about taking it up the rear. This poor woman,

791
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 3: this poor woman who was getting screwed in more ways

792
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 3: than one. So the woman, of course did not have

793
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 3: the fifteen k to pay for the colonoscopy. Now, just

794
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 3: for a little balance here, you should easily be able

795
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 3: to get a colonoscopy for one thousand to three thousand dollars.

796
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: So that fifteen thousand is completely outrageous. So they said, oh,

797
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 3: we'll put you a payment plan. She couldn't afford most

798
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 3: of the payment plans, so they put her on a

799
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 3: payment plan that lasted for ten years. Oh my gosh,

800
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 3: ten years that this poor woman has had to pay

801
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 3: this bill for this colonoscopy that was outrageously priced. And

802
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 3: so that's a case where if she would have sued

803
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 3: them in small claims court, she would have said, look,

804
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: I'm not there, this is an overpriced bill. Imagine them

805
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 3: justifying that in front of a judge. That's gonna be

806
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,839
Speaker 3: a tough one to justify because it's totally outside the

807
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 3: standard of what people are paying. And there's actually in

808
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 3: my book I talk about the open price term. This

809
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 3: is a part of our law. It's part of our

810
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,720
Speaker 3: Uniform Commercial Code, which is the law that governs consumer

811
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 3: transactions in the United States, and the open priced term says,

812
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 3: if you don't get a price up front, then it's

813
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 3: assumed that it will be a price that is reasonable

814
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 3: and that's set in good faith. And so the healthcare

815
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 3: system does not have the right under our laws in

816
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 3: this country to charge us whatever they want. It's what

817
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,879
Speaker 3: they've been doing and they've been getting away with it,

818
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 3: but they don't actually have the right to do that.

819
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 3: And so when you make your case in small claims court,

820
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 3: you actually have a strong legal standing to make this case.

821
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 3: And so people just need to do it. It does

822
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 3: take courage and it does take initiative, but I encourage people.

823
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 3: You can reach out to me. You can look me

824
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 3: up on my website Marshall Allen dot com, send me

825
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 3: a message will. I am happy to show you how

826
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 3: this process works, and I lay it out in the book,

827
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 3: but I'm also happy to coach people through it because

828
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,919
Speaker 3: every time I help someone through the process. First of all,

829
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 3: it's just delightful for me, I've made this my hobby.

830
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 3: It's really fun for me. But also I get great

831
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 3: case studies right that I can share with other people,

832
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 3: and so it is really really fun to see people

833
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 3: pushing back, standing up for themselves. It's very empowering. And

834
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 3: then you see that the bullies back off because they

835
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 3: don't want to spend that amount of money to defend

836
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 3: these cases. You're making it not in their interest financially

837
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 3: to take you on. And again, it's not so you

838
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 3: can avoid paying. It's just so that you don't get

839
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 3: ripped off.

840
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 1: It just so that you can pay a fair price.

841
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: And specifically we want to get to some of those

842
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: wins here in a little bit after the break. But Marshall,

843
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 1: does it ever make sense as you're negotiating and as

844
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: you're trying to figure out what is going on with

845
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,479
Speaker 1: your bill? Does it ever actually make sense to mention

846
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: the fact that, hey, I understand that I've got a

847
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 1: pretty good case here. Does it make sense to mention

848
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 1: small claims court when you're negotiating with the billing department?

849
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 3: Definitely, it does, okay, And I don't know that it's

850
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 3: going to work. You know, it might, it might not.

851
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 3: The other thing that you should do is before you sue,

852
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 3: and I have a template for it in the book,

853
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 3: send a warning letter. So one thing that courts don't want.

854
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 3: They don't want us wasting their time. They don't want

855
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,720
Speaker 3: us taking a thing to mess with our taxpayer funded

856
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 3: court system if it's avoidable, and so you send them.

857
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 3: You're going to send them a thirty day notice before

858
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 3: you see them, or two week notice or one week notice,

859
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 3: whatever you want. But you want to be able to

860
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 3: show that Judge I did everything I could to settle

861
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 3: this in a fair way without wasting your time, Judge,

862
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 3: and the hospital refused to give me a fair deal.

863
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 3: And so that warning letter does tell them, Hey, if

864
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 3: you don't correct this within a week or within two

865
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 3: weeks or thirty days, I'm going to sue you in

866
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 3: small claims court. So you definitely want to notify them

867
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 3: and tell them that you're going to do that, and

868
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:29,800
Speaker 3: I think it is effective.

869
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 2: What about listeners Marshall who have got their debt, has

870
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,760
Speaker 2: their medical debt has been sold to a collection agency,

871
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 2: and you actually say that that might put us in

872
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 2: a stronger negotiating position once the debt is out of

873
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: the hospital's hand and in the hands of an agency, right, Like,

874
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: how do we then make sure that we're not that

875
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,320
Speaker 2: we're getting a deal when it comes to paying off

876
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 2: a debt that's been sold elsewhere.

877
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 3: Well, you're hitting on something that to me is maybe

878
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 3: the greatest shame of our healthcare system. We spend twice

879
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 3: as much per person on healthcare than any other citizens

880
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 3: of any other developed country, or any other average spending

881
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 3: in a developed country, and yet we have one in

882
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 3: five Americans. Tens of millions of Americans have medical debt

883
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,440
Speaker 3: in collections. And so I included a chapter on that

884
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 3: because we need to not stigmatize it. If it hasn't

885
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 3: happened to you, it's happened to someone you know. It

886
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 3: hasn't happened because somebody was irresponsible or did something they

887
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 3: shouldn't have done. In fact, it's probably happened because of

888
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 3: an error filled or overpriced healthcare bill that the person

889
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 3: didn't even know they could push back against, and so

890
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 3: they ended up in collections. But in a dark way,

891
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 3: Like you mentioned, your leverage gets better, and that's because

892
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 3: they've given up on you. Basically, they think you're not

893
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 3: going to give them anything, and so that's the starting point.

894
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 3: So when that collection agent calls, you do not ignore

895
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: the call. First of all, can test that medical debt

896
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 3: in writing within thirty days. Make them justify it again.

897
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 3: I have a template in the book of a letter

898
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 3: that you can send to them by certified mail, so

899
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 3: that you need to make them justify it. Because often

900
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 3: their whole debt collection system, they buy and sell so

901
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 3: much debt so many times that, I mean they swap

902
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 3: it like you know, used to trade baseball cards when

903
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 3: you're a kid, you know, and so they can't even

904
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 3: keep track of who actually has the legal grounds to

905
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,919
Speaker 3: collect the debt. So make them justify it. But let's

906
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 3: say they do justify it, and now you need to

907
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 3: negotiate a payment. They're going to start like let's say

908
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 3: you owe one thousand dollars, They're going to start at

909
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 3: a thousand. You need to start at zero because already,

910
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 3: you know, if it's coming to collections, they think they're

911
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:48,479
Speaker 3: not going to get anything. So start with zero and say,

912
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry, I can't afford to pay you anything.

913
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 3: So I know you'd really like to get the thousand

914
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 3: from me, but that's not going to work. I mean,

915
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 3: my family has all these bills, Build a relationship with them,

916
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 3: help them to understand where you're coming from. Pay anything

917
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 3: you'd like to pay it, Yeah, paying a picture for him,

918
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 3: build a relationship. It does not do any good to

919
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 3: cuss these people out, even though you might want to.

920
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 3: And I talked to experts who said that when they

921
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 3: buy debt, they buy it four pennies on the dollar.

922
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 3: So let's say it's one thousand dollars, they might have

923
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,760
Speaker 3: bought your debt for it the most, say fifty dollars.

924
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 3: And so if you can get them to take something

925
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 3: over fifty dollars so that they make a profit but

926
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 3: a massive discount for you, then you can pay that

927
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 3: off at a huge discount. So the number that I

928
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: came to with one of the experts I talked to

929
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 3: was get it down to about an eighty five percent discount.

930
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 3: So in other words, if you owed a thousand, you

931
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 3: know they probably bought it for fifty at the most.

932
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 3: See if you can get them down to one hundred

933
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 3: and fifty dollars, pay it off in a lump sum,

934
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 3: get that thing gone if you can, or get on

935
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 3: a payment plan for that reduced rate. But be worn

936
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 3: there because you don't ever want to get on a

937
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,240
Speaker 3: payment plan that you default on, because if you default

938
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 3: on it, then that debt is going to go right

939
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 3: back to that original one thousand dollars number that you

940
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 3: owed without any discount.

941
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: Right, So, once you strike a deal, make sure you

942
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,359
Speaker 1: stick with the terms of that deal. All right, marsh

943
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break, But after that break,

944
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about You've given some great examples

945
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: already of some wins, basically some examples of folks who

946
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: have been able to drastically reduce the cost of their

947
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:27,879
Speaker 1: medical bills. But we want to hear some more of those.

948
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: We'll get to that, plus a couple other questions right

949
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: after this break.

950
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 2: We're back from the break. We're still talking with Marshall

951
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 2: Allen about fighting and winning when it comes to insane

952
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 2: healthcare costs. A ton of good information already on this episode. Marshall.

953
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: You have this place on your website though, where where

954
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 2: people can share victory stories. I love that because I

955
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 2: think we need to hold these people up as heroes

956
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,239
Speaker 2: who are fighting back against in sane healthcare system. But

957
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 2: what are a couple of the best ones you've received.

958
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 3: Well, I mean this has been the most fun part

959
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 3: of the book for me. Like I really loved writing

960
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 3: the book. It's been fun to launch the book. It's

961
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 3: been successful, it's selling well, so that's really fun. But

962
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 3: the most satisfying part to me is these victory stories.

963
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 3: And so again I encourage anybody to go to my

964
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 3: website and I have a form on there that you

965
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 3: can fill out. If you've had one of these wins,

966
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 3: please share it with me, because I'm writing these up.

967
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 3: I'm doing interviews with people who have victories because what

968
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 3: I want to do is kind of get rid of

969
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 3: the idea that we can't do anything about this. Like

970
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 3: the subtitle of my book, the book is never pay

971
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 3: the first bill. In other ways to fight the healthcare

972
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 3: system and win, and winning is the most important part.

973
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 3: So let me just read this. I know this woman,

974
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 3: and I help this woman myself. But I love this

975
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 3: Amazon review. It's a woman named Alexia Khalile is her name.

976
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 3: She says on her Amazon review, this book saved my

977
00:48:56,239 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 3: family seventy k in medical bills. Wow, this book, book

978
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,320
Speaker 3: and the author are the real deal. My family was

979
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 3: near financial ruin when we found out our insurance denied

980
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 3: my procedure, and the hospital tried to stick us with

981
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 3: a seventy eight thousand dollars bill. We were told by

982
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 3: both the hospital and our insurance that we didn't qualify

983
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 3: for any assistance. Thanks to Marshall and the information in

984
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 3: his book, we were able to push back against the

985
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 3: hospital and insurance company in an informed way that made

986
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 3: them realize they had to do something to fix this.

987
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 3: We ultimately came out owing nothing. Without this information, we

988
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 3: wouldn't have even known where to begin, and we would

989
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,320
Speaker 3: have gone down the path of filing bankruptcy. If you

990
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 3: were dealing with bills large or small. The information in

991
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 3: this book is truly life changing. And she has a

992
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 3: picture of her bill from the hospital. It says total

993
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 3: charges seventy eighty six hundred and twelve dollars balance due

994
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:51,919
Speaker 3: on the account zero.

995
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,799
Speaker 2: Man, I'm about to cry just hearing you read that.

996
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 2: When you first read that, you must have been like Tyrie.

997
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,800
Speaker 3: Eye, right, she called me, She she called me. Actually,

998
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 3: so this Alexia is a really wonderful young woman. She

999
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 3: and her husband, Derek, have two kids. They live in

1000
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 3: South Dakota, and she was told by the hospital that

1001
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 3: they that her insurance company had approved this treatment. Well,

1002
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 3: what happened is they actually sent her the wrong message

1003
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 3: because what they said the insurance company had told them, well,

1004
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 3: it doesn't have to be approved because it's an outpatient procedure,

1005
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 3: not an inpatient procedure. So she got the wrong information,

1006
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 3: but she listened to what everyone told her. She got

1007
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 3: the procedure. The procedure actually worked, it took care of

1008
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 3: the problem that she was having. But then she gets

1009
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 3: a bill in the mail because they said it was

1010
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 3: unapproved because it was experimental. So I have a chapter

1011
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 3: in my book about how to fight these insurance company denials,

1012
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 3: and so I walk people through the mindset, the approach,

1013
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 3: the evidence based argument you need to make, and also

1014
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:57,240
Speaker 3: how to get your employer involved. And in this case,

1015
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 3: she was in her husband's employer sponsored health lan and

1016
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 3: they were able to get the employer to put some

1017
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 3: pressure on the insurance company to take care of this bill,

1018
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 3: which they should have done in the first place. Insurance

1019
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 3: companies will call anything experimental, and so sometimes things are experimental,

1020
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 3: but not everything's experimental. And so I really love that

1021
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 3: example because she had the courage to do it. Her

1022
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 3: back was against the wall, so she had to do it,

1023
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 3: but she came out on top, and that is a huge,

1024
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,359
Speaker 3: huge encouragement and a huge win.

1025
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, one of the things that stood out to

1026
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: me is that she said that she was informed, and

1027
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: that is what you're going through your book. You even

1028
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: said yourself to be able to make these evidence based

1029
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: arguments like that is what we need to do when

1030
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 1: it comes to making sure that we are being treated properly.

1031
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: And you can't just be like it's too big, I

1032
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: hate it, don't make it go away, Like you have

1033
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 2: an informed argument, that's right.

1034
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 3: What I like to show people because again, how do

1035
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 3: you get people engaged in the topic of health insurance, right,

1036
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 3: or how do you get people motivated to get engaged

1037
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 3: and activated with looking at their medical bills? And the

1038
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 3: way I'm trying to do it, quite crassly, is to

1039
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 3: say you could save hundreds or even thousands of dollars

1040
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 3: if you engage with this, if you boost your financial

1041
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 3: literacy in this healthcare way, right. I Mean, sometimes you

1042
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 3: think about the first time when you're a young person,

1043
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 3: maybe in a teenager, and you got your first checking account,

1044
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 3: and you got those first bank statements, and you had

1045
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 3: to even balance a checkbook and you're like, how does

1046
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 3: this work? Anyway? I'm very confused by all of these numbers.

1047
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 3: But you knew that you had to learn how to

1048
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 3: balance a checkbook and look at your bank statements or

1049
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 3: your credit card statements, because if you didn't, you could

1050
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,240
Speaker 3: lose hundreds or even thousands of dollars. Well, the numbers

1051
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 3: are even higher in the healthcare system. If we don't

1052
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 3: engage on this, we could lose hundreds or thousands of

1053
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 3: dollars per healthcare interaction. I think again, people just don't

1054
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 3: realize how overpriced the healthcare system is and how unjustified

1055
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 3: the prices are, and how they want you to stay

1056
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 3: in the dark so that they can keep making you

1057
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 3: pay more. It's completely unfair and it gets me fired up.

1058
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 3: So I'm sure you can tell that that I don't

1059
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 3: like this. I do not like this at all, you know,

1060
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 3: and sometimes it's ruining people's lives.

1061
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 2: It feels like there's a gun to our head. But

1062
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,720
Speaker 2: you're teaching us the jiu jitsu to like to figure

1063
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 2: out how to like quickly like take that gun away

1064
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 2: and then knock it out of that that aggressor's hands

1065
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 2: so that we are on a level playing field. And

1066
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 2: there's just so many great tips in the book and

1067
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 2: we got to talk about so much of it today

1068
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 2: on the show. So Marshall, I love the book so much,

1069
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:42,800
Speaker 2: and we will, you know, make sure that our audience

1070
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,879
Speaker 2: checks it out because it really it's going to save

1071
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 2: them money in the long haul. Where can our audience

1072
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 2: find out more about the book, more about you and

1073
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 2: what you're up to.

1074
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 3: Well, so I already mentioned my website Marshall Allen dot com.

1075
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 3: Another thing I really want to tell people about and

1076
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 3: encourage people to support. I have launched a crowdfunding campaign

1077
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 3: on indiego go, and that's to create a series of

1078
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 3: health literacy videos that are based on the book. And

1079
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 3: so I take all these principles that are in the book.

1080
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 3: I know most people aren't going to read a book,

1081
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 3: you know, they're not going to take the time to

1082
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 3: get it and read it. But if you can get

1083
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 3: this content, it's like fifteen short, three to five minute videos.

1084
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 3: I'm raising money for the production of the videos, the

1085
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 3: animation and the graphics costs, and so people can go

1086
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 3: to Indiegogo and look up the never pay pathway, That's

1087
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 3: what I'm calling it, or you can look up my name,

1088
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 3: so you can support that and share that if you're interested.

1089
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 3: I'm trying to get the power of the crowd to

1090
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 3: help fund the production costs and then share victory stories

1091
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 3: with me. You know, That's another thing I'm so excited about.

1092
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 3: I'm seeing people achieve these individual wins and it's tremendously empowering.

1093
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 3: And I know, and I know that your listeners know

1094
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 3: many people are not in a position where they can

1095
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 3: stand up for themselves. You know, maybe they're too sick,

1096
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 3: they're trying to to fight their cancer or something, they're

1097
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 3: trying to care for loved ones. Maybe they're working a

1098
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 3: lot of jobs and they just don't have time. And

1099
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 3: so I think not everybody's going to be able to

1100
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,399
Speaker 3: do this, but those of us who can, like, you're

1101
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 3: not just fighting for yourself, you know, you're going to

1102
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 3: have your own win, but you're also standing up for

1103
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 3: all those other people who can't stand up for themselves

1104
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 3: against a system that has just become entitled to take

1105
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,919
Speaker 3: our money without any justification. And so I think when

1106
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 3: we rise up together and push back, we are going

1107
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 3: to have a tremendous amount of leverage to bring about

1108
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 3: change in our healthcare system. And that's going to help

1109
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:37,479
Speaker 3: us a lot in the long run.

1110
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: I love it. That's so good, Marshall. Yeah, thank you

1111
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 1: for meeting us here at the intersection of money and healthcare.

1112
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: You are the right man to talk to about that,

1113
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,240
Speaker 1: and we appreciate you joining us today.

1114
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It's a huge honor for me.

1115
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:52,439
Speaker 3: Keep it up, guys, all.

1116
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 2: Right, Matt, I got to say, that was a great conversation,

1117
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: and Marshall has been doing the hard work for a

1118
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 2: long time now to know first the problems that are

1119
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 2: in our healthcare system and then how we as individuals

1120
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 2: can fight back against it. Tons of great info in

1121
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 2: the book, and then just a lot of great information

1122
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: in this conversation that I think can help our listeners

1123
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,919
Speaker 2: actually fight back against unfair bills that they might receive

1124
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 2: from a hospital, and then even just how to proactively

1125
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,800
Speaker 2: shop around and get the lowest price on a procedure

1126
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 2: that you need. But yeah, what was your big takeaway

1127
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 2: from this combo?

1128
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1129
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 1: I mean so one of the things he mentioned early

1130
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,399
Speaker 1: on in the interview he talked about direct primary care

1131
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:30,839
Speaker 1: doctors and so basically these are essentially plans that you

1132
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 1: work out and a lot of times individual doctors will

1133
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 1: have them. I mean, the way I understand it, it's

1134
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: a lot like a subscription service exactly. You pay month

1135
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 1: to month, you have direct access to this doctor and

1136
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: you get everything you needed taken care of. That's not

1137
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: something I have ever had, but as our family grows,

1138
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: as we kind of continue to have different issues that

1139
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: we might want to have looked at, Like, I feel

1140
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 1: like I could see that becoming something that would make

1141
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: sense for us. He recommended it. It's not something we've

1142
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 1: talked a lot about on the show, but we are

1143
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 1: seeing the rise in these relationships, and especially as more

1144
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: families and individuals move to these high deductible plans to

1145
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: take care of them. If disaster or tragedy were to strike,

1146
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 1: right like, if there's cancer or something like that, you're

1147
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 1: going to hit that deductible and you might end up paying,

1148
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: you know, five seven, eight thousand dollars out of pocket

1149
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: to hit that higher deductible. But when it comes to

1150
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: some of the kind of day to day doctor stuff,

1151
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 1: these direct primary care plans might be the path for

1152
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: folks to take.

1153
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, we're going to see those continue to

1154
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 2: proliferate and it kind of cuts out the middle man.

1155
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 2: Right now, it's just you and your doctor as opposed

1156
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 2: to some insurance companies standing in the middle, and you

1157
00:57:34,280 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 2: get kind of unfettered access to your doctor under some

1158
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 2: of those plans.

1159
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like it feels like there's more of a relationship.

1160
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 1: It feels like more like an old school doctor set exactly.

1161
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: You know where you might show up to your house

1162
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: with like a leather satchel, right right, I think you

1163
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: might have to pay bonus, Like you have to pay

1164
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: extra for that.

1165
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 2: If you come on horseback. How much does that get

1166
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 2: to cost me?

1167
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 1: But little house in the prairie style, right, That's what

1168
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: I'm looking for. Can you provide that for me? Exactly?

1169
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 2: That would be nice? And then you just like can

1170
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 2: we Borter'll trag you chickens if you'll take a look

1171
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 2: at this rash.

1172
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: I have at some steaks. Marshall would be down for that. Yeah, yeah,

1173
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:05,600
Speaker 1: what about you?

1174
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 3: Man?

1175
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: What was your big takeaway?

1176
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 3: Man?

1177
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 2: I think ultimately my big takeaway was it takes tenacity.

1178
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 2: You have to arm yourself with the knowledge and then

1179
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 2: you just have to kind of get that bulldog face

1180
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 2: and you kind of got to go about the process

1181
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 2: of attacking these healthcare bills. If you take it lying down,

1182
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 2: you're gonna pay high prices exactly. And if you fight back,

1183
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 2: you're going to see major price breaks. You're going to

1184
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 2: see some of these bills completely forgiven. But you have

1185
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 2: to be proactive and you have to be willing to fight.

1186
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: And you know that's in the title of the book, right,

1187
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 2: fight and win. And if you fight, you're gonna win

1188
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 2: more often than not. But you got to be willing

1189
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:40,439
Speaker 2: to throw the first punch.

1190
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: You gotta have that right mindset, and that's also what's

1191
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: going to allow you to take the courageous steps to

1192
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: potentially sue them in small claims core Right. It takes

1193
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 1: that entire shift and mindset, and I just appreciate the

1194
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: perspective that he was able to bring today during this interview.

1195
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: May let's shift gears and get to our beer. Today.

1196
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: You and I each enjoyed Fade Away, which is a

1197
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 1: red corn lagger by Cruz Blanc. What were your thoughts

1198
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 1: on this beer?

1199
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 2: So I'm digging this brewery. I like what they're putting out.

1200
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 2: This was like a traditional lagger, but with a twist

1201
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 2: with the corn, with the red corn in there. Yeah,

1202
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 2: so it has like gave it a lot of different flavors.

1203
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,360
Speaker 1: It really did. From a traditional logger, I think I agree.

1204
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 2: It had like a lot more stuff happening. And I

1205
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 2: think the biggest thing it had some a nice, little

1206
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 2: like yeasty sort of funk going on to.

1207
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: It, like it almost made it even taste like it

1208
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 1: was barrel age or wood aged or something like that.

1209
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 1: But also with it it had this caramel and multi

1210
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 1: flavor profile going on. I really enjoyed it. This was

1211
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 1: another one that was donated to the show by Dennis

1212
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: as well as our friends up there at Cruz Blanca

1213
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 1: definitely have enjoyed their beers.

1214
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 2: They're out of Chicago, all right. Well, that's going to

1215
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 2: do it for this episode. For folks who want the

1216
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 2: show notes, including links to what Marshall's up to, including

1217
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 2: a link to his book, which we highly recommend, you

1218
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 2: can find those up on our website at howtomoney dot com.

1219
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 1: That's right, man, So until next time, Best Friends Out,

1220
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 1: Best Friends Out.