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Speaker 1: School of Humans.

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Speaker 2: This show follows the investigation of serial murders and contains

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Speaker 2: material that may be disturbing. Listener discretion advised.

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Speaker 3: In May of twenty eighteen, the case against Cecilia Stein

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Speaker 3: and Electus Perdeis was moved from district to High Court.

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Speaker 3: Since the group's arrest in twenty sixteen, nearly two years

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Speaker 3: had gone by. In that time, Ben Boysen had to

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Speaker 3: reassemble case files from six years prior and piece together

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Speaker 3: all that had happened since twenty twelve in order to

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Speaker 3: connect EPD to the murders and get them convicted. Back

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Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen, John Barnard turned state's witness. He'd agreed

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Speaker 3: to testify against EPD, which got him out of a

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Speaker 3: life sentence he would serve twenty years. LaRue was also

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Speaker 3: now a fitly a witness for the state. His testimony

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Speaker 3: against Cecilia, his mother, and Zach Valentine is how the

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Speaker 3: prosecution tied EPD to the twenty twelve murders. LaRue and

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Speaker 3: John Barnard's statements, paired with all the evidence gathered by

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Speaker 3: detectives Susette Canose and Captain Johann ban Vick, made epd's

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Speaker 3: involvement plausible beyond a reasonable doubt, not to mention the

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Speaker 3: guns in Mirinda's classroom and the blood found on her carpet,

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Speaker 3: blood later discovered to be that of Anthony Schofield. Psychologist

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Speaker 3: Rosalind McNabb was hired by the state to advocate for Marcel,

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Speaker 3: who was under age when the crimes were committed. Like

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Speaker 3: all those who heard Marinda's accounts of the murders, McNabb

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Speaker 3: recalls being deeply disturbed.

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Speaker 4: On the stand, she lied blatantly to save Cecilia. I

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Speaker 4: killed Reginald, and I enjoyed every minute of an antit

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Speaker 4: it because I want to and I wanted to feel

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Speaker 4: the power, and went into great GORYGGI detail about how

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Speaker 4: she did it and saying it had nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with Cecilia.

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Speaker 3: Marinda Steyne was served eleven life sentences and one hundred

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Speaker 3: and fifteen years for eleven murders. The two years that

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Speaker 3: LaRue spent behind bars provided him ample time to consider

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Speaker 3: the sting of his mother's betrayal, her many betrayals, but

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Speaker 3: especially the altering of her will. On the stand, Marinda

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Speaker 3: claimed she was the mastermind behind all the murders and

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Speaker 3: implicated l Ruin Zach in her statements, she excluded Cecilia

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Speaker 3: and Marcel from this testimony. In a rare act of

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Speaker 3: motherly love. For his testimony, LaRue was offered a reduced

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Speaker 3: sentence of twenty five years. Ben Boysen remembers the verdict

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Speaker 3: against LaRue.

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Speaker 5: LaRue Croit when found guilty and in front of his mother,

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Speaker 5: he said, thank you captain for sending this pitch to

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Speaker 5: jail and pointing at his mother. So yeah, I think

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Speaker 5: at that stage he made peace with himself that his

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Speaker 5: mother actually forced him to commit murdered.

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Speaker 3: Cecilia, Zach, and Marcel all pleaded not guilty. Cecilia to

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Speaker 3: this day claims she knew nothing and had nothing to

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Speaker 3: do with the murders. She told me herself when I

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Speaker 3: spoke to her in prison.

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Speaker 6: No one can force you to do anything. There's no

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Speaker 6: such thing as the devil made me do it. There's

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Speaker 6: no such thing as God made me do it. We

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Speaker 6: make our own choices, we act on our own impulses.

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Speaker 6: And Marchelle and LaRue has the reasons they did what

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Speaker 6: they did. And yeah, there's nothing anybody can say to

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Speaker 6: change someone else's mind.

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Speaker 3: From School of Humans and I Heeart podcasts This is

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Speaker 3: Queen Havoc and Her Murder Cult. I'm your host Kurt Kupachek,

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Speaker 3: Episode ten, Court for the Queen. In twenty eighteen, the

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Speaker 3: year following the initial sentencing of Mirinda and LaRue, the

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Speaker 3: state called fifty two out of about two hundred witnesses

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Speaker 3: to testify against three members of Electus Perdais.

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Speaker 7: The three that eventually winter trial was a Celia Zak.

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Speaker 3: And Marsell Ben told us about how he had to

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Speaker 3: be careful when choosing who to call to the stand.

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Speaker 3: Anyone who believed Cecilia had ties to Satanism could have

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Speaker 3: confused the judge. Way back in the first episode we

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Speaker 3: talked about how the judicial system does take Satanism seriously,

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Speaker 3: but as we now know, her Satanic past was nothing

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Speaker 3: but a tool Cecilia used to convince her followers to

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Speaker 3: commit these horrendous crimes. Any connection to the devil was

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Speaker 3: contrived with no bearing on the murders themselves.

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Speaker 5: At the end of the day, what is the dud's

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Speaker 5: going to believe in? What he is not going to believe?

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Speaker 5: You understand? So we needed to choose our witnesses to

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Speaker 5: prove our cast and not to damage our case.

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Speaker 3: Even so, considering all that EPD had gotten away with

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Speaker 3: up to this point, faith in the judicial system was

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Speaker 3: hard to come by.

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Speaker 5: Even when we started going to courte there was doubt

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Speaker 5: in the family's eyes that these people eventually going to

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Speaker 5: be found guilty.

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Speaker 3: Jana Marx, working as a courtroom journalist at the time,

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Speaker 3: was used to watching trials. Yanna kept a keen eye

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Speaker 3: on all the witness's behavior and body language. She noticed

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Speaker 3: that Cecilia appeared completely unfazed by the proceedings. She Zach

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Speaker 3: and Marcel, at least at first, stuck together like a

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Speaker 3: little clique, hiding behind their witty rapport.

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Speaker 7: They started as a very chetty group, a lot of fun,

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Speaker 7: fun and games. Celia is very now, she's very lively,

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Speaker 7: and she tells jokes, and that happened in court the

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Speaker 7: second They made little personal jokes and they pointed and

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Speaker 7: stayed at people, and that's.

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Speaker 2: How it started.

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Speaker 3: One of the key witnesses they mocked was Ria Grunivald,

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Speaker 3: epd's first victim, at least in a psychological sense, and

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Speaker 3: Cecilia's apparent motivation for the revenge killings. In twenty twelve.

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Speaker 3: It took weeks for state prosecutors and police to convince

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Speaker 3: Rhea to come out of hiding and appear in court.

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Speaker 3: She did so only under the condition that no photographs

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Speaker 3: be taken of her. Her testimony brought her into the

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Speaker 3: same room as Cecilia and EPD for the first time

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Speaker 3: in five years. Yanna reported that Rhea addressed the room,

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Speaker 3: stating Ria Grunivald is dead. She no longer exists. I've

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Speaker 3: lost everything when they died. I died. Ria's written testimony.

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Speaker 8: Read it was a very difficult time, and I was

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Speaker 8: not able to discuss it with anyone, fearing that Sea

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Speaker 8: could be punished for speaking out. I had to be

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Speaker 8: strong for her. She also isolated me from everyone I knew.

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Speaker 8: She lied about everything. I couldn't do anything without them

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Speaker 8: knowing I believed her. I then decided to end my

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Speaker 8: commitment to see and I set up that appointment with

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Speaker 8: her where I was threatened. They raised his history.

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Speaker 3: With eleven others killed. Rhea managed to escape from the

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Speaker 3: board texts of Cecilia Stein with her life. However, she

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Speaker 3: is still paying a high price. Rea lost her home,

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Speaker 3: her livelihood, she lost contact with her children, and the

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Speaker 3: rest of her family existence. As she knew it ceased.

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Speaker 3: It's like her life was murdered, but she went on living.

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Speaker 5: She didn't even admit to me where she went into.

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Speaker 5: Stay till today, I Tilda and don't speak to her

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Speaker 5: a grand till Duncia. So she's still in hiding today,

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Speaker 5: Someway in South Africa.

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Speaker 3: Some of the witnesses that took the stand included members

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Speaker 3: of Cecilia's outer circle, folks involved in the Know Your

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Speaker 3: Enemy classes she held for a time back in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 3: Neighbors of the murder victims and members of the task

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Speaker 3: team also testified. Here's Detective Hert Krueger.

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Speaker 9: There was the witness. They were having a party next

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Speaker 9: to the house where mister McGregor was staying. They said

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Speaker 9: it was a white female where had a very funny

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Speaker 9: She was walking funny. They described it like almost like

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Speaker 9: walking like a duck and that was Merendo.

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Speaker 3: Even Luke came out of witness protection to testify against

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Speaker 3: them and report on his chilling time around the group.

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Speaker 3: As Cecilia, Zach and Marcel witnessed their damning testimony, they

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Speaker 3: became increasingly less chummy. Their body language began to reflect

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Speaker 3: the degradation of Cecilia's mind control.

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Speaker 7: As more testimony came forward, more evidence came forward, as

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Speaker 7: if the group literally a physically moved away from one

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Speaker 7: another on the bench.

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Speaker 3: The more Cecilia allowed everyone else to take the blame

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Speaker 3: for her, the more Zach and Marcel recoiled.

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Speaker 7: See how it was in the middle still just you know,

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Speaker 7: observing writings. She took notes.

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Speaker 3: That's right, Cecilia took notes. She had I had to

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Speaker 3: keep her story straight.

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Speaker 7: And you have Zach Valentine. Zach would literally sit on

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Speaker 7: one butt cheek like he's going to fall off the

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Speaker 7: bench at any moment. He was so far away, just

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Speaker 7: to say, away from her, and Marcel the same.

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Speaker 6: On the other.

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Speaker 3: Side, Marcel was in a dark place throughout the proceedings.

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Speaker 3: Each time she was called to the stand, she denied

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Speaker 3: everything which implicated her brother and made way for her

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Speaker 3: mother to continue to sacrifice her own life in exaltation

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Speaker 3: of Cecilia.

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Speaker 7: So Mosel obviously grew more and more depressed as she realized, okay, well,

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Speaker 7: see you set up the whole trial. She planned the

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Speaker 7: whole trial in advance, and Marcel went with it.

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Speaker 3: Ben tried talking to Marcel, but she was reluctant, even

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Speaker 3: to the point of self sabotage.

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Speaker 5: Marcel from the beginning told me to go fuck myself.

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Speaker 5: That was her wit, her father, a real father, Rainstel lawyers,

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Speaker 5: a good advocate, and she said no, she doesn't want them,

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Speaker 5: and she's not guilty.

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Speaker 3: Remember, the primary charge was racketeering. This was used as

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Speaker 3: a pathway to prove their involvement in the murders. This

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Speaker 3: risky and unprecedented strategy turned out to be a clever

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Speaker 3: move on Ben's Park.

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Speaker 5: This is the first guise in the history of South Africa.

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Speaker 5: Were murderers our charged with with racketeering and was found

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Speaker 5: guilty in the I court.

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Speaker 3: So, even though each EPD defendant had their own lawyers,

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Speaker 3: allegations against one implicated them all as.

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Speaker 7: The trial progressed, and obviously they had their own legal representatives,

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Speaker 7: and every legal council obviously wants to exonerate their own

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Speaker 7: client and they would throw the others under the bus.

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Speaker 3: Zach held fast to the story that he didn't remember anything,

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Speaker 3: even the day that his car caught on fire, but

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Speaker 3: Marinda describing his direct involvement while on the stand revealed

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Speaker 3: suspicious inconsistencies in the narrative. This prolonged the trial over

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Speaker 3: the course of three years from twenty sixteen through twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 3: Electis Perdaeis only spent a total of sixty days in court,

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Speaker 3: but prosecutors were relentless in their pursuit of the truth.

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Speaker 3: The most critical testimonies, though, were the ones given by

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Speaker 3: LaRue and Barnard. Again, Jana Marx noted LaRue's physical and

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Speaker 3: emotive language.

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Speaker 7: LaRue not a small boy coming into court, but he

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Speaker 7: grew more confident during his testimony. I remember him not

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Speaker 7: being able to say the word murder or killing.

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Speaker 3: He had been brainwashed and pressured by his own mother

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Speaker 3: in Cecilia since he was just a kid.

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Speaker 7: I think the too first two to three days off

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Speaker 7: his testimony, he would just say yeah and then it happened.

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Speaker 7: Then that happened, assuming a murder, or then I was

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Speaker 7: strangled the guy, and then it happened. So it was

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Speaker 7: very interesting to see how he evolved during his testimony.

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Speaker 7: I think getting freeing himself from the bondage of his mother,

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Speaker 7: the bondage of Cecilia being in their service.

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Speaker 3: LaRue's striking neck tattoo of a large marionette puppet took

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Speaker 3: on a symbolic new meaning throughout the course of the

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Speaker 3: trial as he found his footing in court. LaRue's confidence

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Speaker 3: may have been boosted by his budding friendship with journalist

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Speaker 3: Murtzka Kotsare. LaRue confided in Mritzka about all the ways

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Speaker 3: he was abused by his mother and Cecilia.

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Speaker 10: His mother beat him up because how dare he questioned Cecilia.

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Speaker 10: You know, and as really said, he said to me,

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Speaker 10: the one time his mother hit him more than thirty times,

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Speaker 10: she hit him so hard he waved his bed.

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Speaker 2: And this was when he was sixteen years old.

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Speaker 3: Even behind bars, LaRue feared Cecilia's spectral wrath.

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Speaker 10: There's actually one time where he was in jail, he's

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Speaker 10: been sentenced.

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Speaker 2: We asked me about Eestro travel.

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Speaker 10: He actually genuinely asked me if I thought it was real?

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Speaker 10: And do I think Cecilia can get to him and HARMI?

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Speaker 10: And I'm like lyuy, you know, this is a bunch

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Speaker 10: of shit, Come on now, But it just shows you

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Speaker 10: how long he's been manipulated. You know, sitting in jail

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Speaker 10: is like, what if Cecilia can sneak into my cell

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Speaker 10: and come and hurt me?

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Speaker 11: You know.

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Speaker 3: What the public didn't know, however, was that Maritzka and

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Speaker 3: LaRue's relationship had evolved from journalists and suspect to a

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Speaker 3: friendship and then to a fully fledged romance. When that

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Speaker 3: lasted for two and a half years. They were already

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Speaker 3: an item before the Rue was even officially sentenced. In

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Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, me the day before you.

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Speaker 2: Were sentenced, will I be his girlfriend?

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Speaker 10: And at that point, you know, I kind of like froze,

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Speaker 10: because like the half of me thought, what's the arm

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Speaker 10: of being someone's girlfriend in jail.

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Speaker 2: I'll never get.

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Speaker 10: Involved like that, And the other half of me felt

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Speaker 10: sorry for him, you know, like, how can I say

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Speaker 10: no now, knowing that tomorrow is getting sentenced for let's

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Speaker 10: say twenty or twenty five years, so, you know, and

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Speaker 10: I just said yes.

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Speaker 2: You know, but I did like him. I had a

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Speaker 2: crush on it. But can you I.

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Speaker 10: Imagine the first day that this is now my boyfriend,

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Speaker 10: I'm standing in court looking at how he's being sentenced.

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Speaker 2: That was really a very sad, you know moment.

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Speaker 3: Maritzka was married at the time, and the couple had

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Speaker 3: a young daughter. By twenty nineteen, with the case mounting

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Speaker 3: against Cecilia Zach and Marcel Zach got wind of their

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Speaker 3: relationship and tried to use it to his advantage.

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Speaker 10: Zach was the only one that had a private attorney.

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Speaker 10: Everyone else had to state attorneys. Zach's parents by that

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Speaker 10: lawyer over two million rangers to you know, help him

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Speaker 10: get away with murder. So one of their plans was

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Speaker 10: to get me subpoena to tell the court that the

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Speaker 10: police was using me.

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Speaker 3: Zach's attorney aimed to get LaRue's testimony stricken from the record.

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Speaker 3: He argued that Maritzka was working with Ben and the

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Speaker 3: task team to influence Laru's story. While Maritzka's behavior is

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Speaker 3: indeed a breach of journalistic ethics, Zach's attempt to leverage

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Speaker 3: her in LaRue's love for his own gain caught her

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Speaker 3: off guard.

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Speaker 10: I've never in my life loved the story like this,

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Speaker 10: like the drama, the one that I'm sitting there and

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Speaker 10: the investigating officer phones me and he's like, listen, yeah,

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Speaker 10: and I want to scare you, but you might be

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Speaker 10: called to court.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, for fucking what, you know, because I'm covering this.

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Speaker 10: He's like, no, Zach's attorney is trying to say that

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Speaker 10: the police is using me to manipulate LaRue.

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Speaker 3: Early in twenty nineteen, in a desperate act of self preservation,

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Speaker 3: Zach Valentine and his lawyer tried to sell the story

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Speaker 3: that Maritzka was a pawn used by the police to

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Speaker 3: convince LaRue to stay on his confessional track. If this

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Speaker 3: were true, it would discredit LaRue's testimony and further complicate

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Speaker 3: the case against EPD. Maritzka fought to stay off the stand.

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Speaker 10: I'm like a hell to the notice because now can

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Speaker 10: you not imagine I need to appear in court. I'm

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Speaker 10: a journalist. Now I need to go explain. So I

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Speaker 10: was like, this shit is not going down, you know.

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Speaker 3: The judge recognized that there were more important issues at

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Speaker 3: stake than an accused killer's girlfriend and rejected the requests

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Speaker 3: from Zach's attorney.

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Speaker 2: And luckily the judge threw it outside.

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Speaker 10: Was like, whew, I dodged the bullets, okay, But little

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Speaker 10: did I know I did not dodge a bullet the

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Speaker 10: whole I don't know, like nine yards were coming from me.

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Speaker 3: But Zach and his lawyer didn't quit.

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Speaker 10: After that failed, Zach's girlfriend went to a Sunday newspaper.

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Speaker 10: So it's basically the place where I worked, the sister publication.

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Speaker 3: Can we pause? Are you telling me Zach had a girlfriend?

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Speaker 2: It was actually his fiance.

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Speaker 10: How can that woman date Zach? Isn't she Scaredy's gonna

294
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Speaker 10: murder as well? But anyways, back to how I saw

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Speaker 10: my ass.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: That same week, Maritzka's life began to crumble.

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Speaker 2: When I rapped at work.

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Speaker 10: My boss phoned me and she said to me, from

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Speaker 10: this point on, I'm not allowed to speak to anyone anymore.

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Speaker 10: I'm not allowed to speak to my colleagues. I'm not

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Speaker 10: allowed to go out on stories.

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Speaker 3: By the end of the week, she lost her job.

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Speaker 10: By the friday that I arrived at work. As I

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Speaker 10: got to the entrance, the h old lady was waiting

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Speaker 10: there for me. I didn't even enter that building. They

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Speaker 10: took my laptop, they took my access card, and they

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Speaker 10: suspended me.

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Speaker 3: Although her marriage had been falling apart for a while,

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Speaker 3: she was still living in the house she shared with

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Speaker 3: her husband and their young daughter.

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Speaker 10: I'm a married woman, so now I'm finding my husband.

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Speaker 10: Then my favorite police contact, right, I may said, you listen, hear, colonel,

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Speaker 10: I need to tell you something.

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Speaker 2: And then she said to me, yes, she saw online.

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Speaker 2: I'm like what.

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Speaker 10: So while I was driving home, they already put out

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Speaker 10: a press release saying that I've been suspended in connection

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Speaker 10: with the murders.

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Speaker 3: Maritzka could be charged with obstruction of justice in connection

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Speaker 3: with eleven murders. Serious charges.

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Speaker 10: So now you must know, like everyone like suspects what's

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Speaker 10: going on here. But that's still nothing, because this is

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Speaker 10: the Friday Sunday morning I wake up. I wake up

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Speaker 10: not only to the news of my a fay everyway,

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Speaker 10: but I mean on the lamp.

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Speaker 3: Pulls Maritzka's face next to a picture of LaRue the murderer,

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Speaker 3: plastered all over krueger'storf on the lampposts.

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Speaker 10: It says journalists madly in love with Jilbird. That was

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Speaker 10: the craziest feeling in the world, you know, like becoming

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Speaker 10: the front page story.

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Speaker 3: It often feels like we could dedicate an entire podcast

333
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Speaker 3: to just one of the many subplots orbiting around Cecilia

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Speaker 3: and EPD. This is certainly one of those times. LaRue

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00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 3: and Meritzka's relationship would survive this. In fact, it would

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Speaker 3: last until the COVID nineteen lockdown in twenty twenty. Maritzka's

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00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 3: insight into LaRue, however biased, did help us to understand

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00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 3: him as a person in a big way. She shared

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00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 3: with us many of the details of their relationship, introducing

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Speaker 3: a side to LaRue that we hadn't seen before. A

341
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 3: young man with a big heart, a human being desiring

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Speaker 3: a relationship, the comfort of a partner, something he never

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Speaker 3: had before. She also told us that he was experiencing

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Speaker 3: a new level of paranoia in prison. He could not

345
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Speaker 3: shake the profound fear that had been nurtured and reinforced

346
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Speaker 3: in him for years. Maritzka, looking at this some three

347
00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 3: years later, was insightful as she reflected on how we

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Speaker 3: all build walls around ourselves, cult or no cult.

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Speaker 10: And I remember the one day arriving at Rome, and

350
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Speaker 10: as I stopped in front of the gate, I thought

351
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Speaker 10: to myself. Everyone has their own prisons, you know. And

352
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Speaker 10: as I opened that gate, I thought to myself, larit

353
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Speaker 10: doesn't have a key to East prison, but I've got

354
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Speaker 10: my own key.

355
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Speaker 3: Which brings us to Marcel, a young woman living inside

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Speaker 3: the prison of her own mind.

357
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Speaker 7: Masel was was a bit different. I think the whole

358
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 7: country's sympathy lie with Marcel.

359
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,880
Speaker 3: On the stand. Two years younger than LaRue. Shy and quiet,

360
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 3: Marcel came across as docile and played up her innocence

361
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,920
Speaker 3: behind big glasses, her style a stark contrast to the

362
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,719
Speaker 3: high goth get ups of the rest of EPD. She

363
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 3: looked almost demure, her hair neatly pulled into a French braid,

364
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 3: almost as if she grew up in a pastoral setting.

365
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 3: She'd grown accustomed to saying as little as possible so

366
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Speaker 3: as not to defy her mother in Cecilia's orders, and

367
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Speaker 3: hoping against hope for her mother's affection. Here is psychologist

368
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:44,400
Speaker 3: Rosalind McNabb.

369
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Speaker 4: Marcel still did not really, She still wanted to believe

370
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Speaker 4: in her mom somehow until the eleventh hour, so there,

371
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 4: unfortunately didn't go too well for her.

372
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Speaker 3: News accounts of the true paint Marcel as clearly subject

373
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Speaker 3: to profound manipulation, A fearful child, I.

374
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Speaker 7: Think, and I obviously see their mom adoring Cecilia.

375
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 6: So you can.

376
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Speaker 7: Imagine this young little girl. I'm going to call it

377
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 7: that little girl because she was so young when she

378
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,560
Speaker 7: started to live in Celia's house.

379
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 3: Marcel was ten when her mother met Cecilia and thirteen

380
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 3: when she moved in with her and took responsibility for

381
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 3: all of Cecilia's needs and those of Cecilia's two young children.

382
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,040
Speaker 7: I think she was also thinking she was doing the

383
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 7: right thing, because the adults all had consensus on this,

384
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Speaker 7: so this had to be the right thing.

385
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 3: Marcel confided in Rosalind that she had looked up to Cecilia.

386
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 4: Marcel speaks about how she really adlass Cecilia. I mean

387
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 4: she thought that this woman was her hero. She trist

388
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 4: like she heard it most of the members of that group.

389
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 4: She thought that whatever she said was amazing. She was

390
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 4: her role model. She spoke about her in a speech at.

391
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Speaker 3: School, especially after witnessing Michaela's murder. Marcel had no female

392
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 3: role models in her life, but just like her brother,

393
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 3: Marcel grew up right there on the witness stand in

394
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Speaker 3: front of the world.

395
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Speaker 7: Marcelle was a little shy girl coming into the court.

396
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 7: You could definitely see her youthfulness. I don't want to

397
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 7: say innocence, because I mean, after killing, I don't think

398
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 7: I have any more of that left. But she was skid,

399
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 7: and I remember seeing this little girl with the big

400
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 7: eyes behind the glasses sitting in court, and as the

401
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 7: trial progressed, it's as if she evolved herself.

402
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 3: After an entire year of watching the trial unfor and

403
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 3: lying on the stand it protect Cecilia, Marcel started to

404
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 3: reconsider the implications of staying silent.

405
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 4: She realized there was in a whole moment because she

406
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 4: still believed, but there was a long period which the

407
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 4: prison wardens showed her luck. This doesn't say that in

408
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 4: the Bible, and that was the trigger for her.

409
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 3: Marcel started thinking about coming clean to the judge. Despite

410
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 3: being consistently threatened by her mother in Cecilia.

411
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 4: She actually said to me, my mom said to me

412
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 4: that if you stand up and you tell the truth,

413
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 4: we will kill you. In Sun City prison, Cecilia and myself,

414
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 4: we will kill you.

415
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 3: Given the conflicting testimony, prosecutors struggled to gain traction on

416
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 3: murder charges against Cecilia. No one say seemed to tell

417
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 3: the same story of what had gone down inside the

418
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 3: walls of EPD. According to countless witnesses, Cecilia was said

419
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 3: to be in charge, but where was the proof? Here's

420
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 3: Detective Susac canotse Ceelia.

421
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 11: Is the one that's got no blood in her hands.

422
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 11: She wasn't involved in any killing actual killing. She used

423
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 11: the people to do it for.

424
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: The judge pointed out that money had clearly been given

425
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: to her, or as she claimed donated to her. Zach

426
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 3: Valentine and John Barnard said they thought the money they

427
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 3: were giving her was going to an orphanage, but her

428
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 3: accounts didn't balance out. Cecilia argued from the witness stand

429
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 3: that this was not evidence of her involvement in the murders.

430
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 3: When the judge pressed her for answers to why others

431
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 3: were donating money to her, Cecilia would calmly, dispassionately reply,

432
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 3: you have to ask them. Is the Catholic Church to

433
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 3: blame for donations it receives from a mob boss. This

434
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 3: was essentially Cecilia's legal argument. It may not have been

435
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 3: legally sound, but it was effective. It confused the question

436
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 3: of culpability and guilt. According to Cecilia's recollection, people just

437
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 3: did things for her. That was their choice. Another reason

438
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 3: it was hard for prosecutors to assign blame to Secilia

439
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 3: was that there was no clear structure in EPD. There

440
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 3: was no clear chain of command, no contracts between them

441
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 3: and no evidence of direct kill orders, and so if

442
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 3: someone testified that Cecilia told them to kill for her,

443
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 3: she simply refuted it. That is until the puzzle pieces,

444
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 3: which had so stubbornly refused to come together, were picked

445
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 3: up by Marcel.

446
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: Do you realize the mistake?

447
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 7: Mettrial and she decided to actually come.

448
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 4: Forward with the truth.

449
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 3: When Marcel Stein took the witness stand in May of

450
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, she laid the pieces of the puzzle out

451
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 3: for the courtroom with the breathless ease of someone who'd

452
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 3: seen it all before.

453
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 5: She was supposed to testify. Stepmother phoned me and said

454
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 5: that Marcel wanted to change to plea and I said, no,

455
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 5: it's too light now to chimes to plea. The only

456
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 5: thing she can do now is going to tell the truth.

457
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 3: She painted a clear picture for the judge. It was

458
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 3: a remarkable moment in the proceedings.

459
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 7: And I don't want to call it testimony because it

460
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 7: wasn't really a testimony. It wasn't planned, it wasn't a

461
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 7: confession like a form of confession. She just decided she's

462
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 7: going to tell the court now what she knows.

463
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 3: Once again, observing Jana Marx noticed the change in Marcel

464
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: as she mustered up the courage to speak her truth

465
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 3: in front of the judge.

466
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 7: I remember two three days prior to that, started to

467
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 7: apply some makeup. Suddenly, this little girl with the big eyes,

468
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 7: the scared eyes, scared of the ccenia are definitely scared

469
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,719
Speaker 7: of her mother, evolved into a woman making up her

470
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 7: own mind.

471
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 3: During Marcel's riveting speech, her brilliant mind was on full display.

472
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 5: She tried to play the child caught to get a

473
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 5: lesser sentence, but the judge didn't fall for that because

474
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 5: when she started fighting with her own advocate in court,

475
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 5: in front of the judge and telling the judge what

476
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 5: the advocate was supposed to do, the advocate saw that

477
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 5: this school is very very clever.

478
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 3: By advocate Ben Means, Marcel's lawyer, not to be confused

479
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: with Roseline McNabb, the child advocate we've been hearing from.

480
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: It was clear Marcel had read up on the law

481
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 3: and knew her rights.

482
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 4: It was quite difficult to convince the judge that this

483
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 4: was someone with a hi IQ at very low.

484
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 3: Eq IQ being logistic intelligence and problem solving, and EQ

485
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 3: referring to emotional awareness being able to identify, evaluate, express,

486
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 3: and control emotions, and.

487
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 4: That she really was emotionally manipulated, and that she really

488
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 4: believed in this astral travel and everything that Cecilia had

489
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 4: told her, and she felt as if she couldn't get away,

490
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 4: and that she was being watched and then also doing

491
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 4: everything that her mom wanted.

492
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 3: The judge then had a choice after observing how smart

493
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: she was. He could take her savvy as a sign

494
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 3: that she might be able to work her way out

495
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 3: of the victimization she'd suffered, or he could use it

496
00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 3: against her. He chose the latter, claim she had ample

497
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 3: opportunity to reach out to an adult at school during

498
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: her time spent living with Cecilia, and that she had

499
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 3: the option to come forward as her brother had, but

500
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 3: she chose not.

501
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 5: To and that's why I also sentenced her to life imprisonment.

502
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 3: Electis Perdeis was found guilty on June third, twenty nineteen.

503
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 4: This Wasn't Elebret Conspiracy.

504
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 3: About six weeks later, on August nineteenth, they were sentenced.

505
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 12: Timurd up Natasha Perga, timurd up, Choi Panzaya, tim murder

506
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 12: of Reginal Pendixon, timurd up Mikaela Valentan Peter Mayer, John Mayer,

507
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 12: Jera Jackson, Glenn McGregor, Anthony Scholfield, Kevin mcgalpan, Jana Latochan,

508
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 12: all the disease were innocent and did not deserve to die.

509
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 3: Cecilia Stein was given thirteen life sentences plus one hundred

510
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 3: and fifty two years for eleven murders. Zach Valentine eight

511
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: life sentences plus sixty six years for seven murders. Marcel Stein,

512
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 3: now twenty one years old, was served seven life sentences

513
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: plus one hundred and forty four years for eight murders.

514
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 5: At the age of that, I've got thirty nine life

515
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 5: sentences and more than two thousand years in prisonment for

516
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 5: these people.

517
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 3: So, while the judge took into consideration her age and

518
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 3: all the manipulation, Marcel coming forward with the truth didn't

519
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: really do her much good in terms of sentencing. After

520
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 3: an entire life of being conditioned to not trust yourself

521
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 3: and your own instincts, the courage that Marcel must have

522
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 3: had to find in herself is staggering.

523
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 7: I do know that's Marenda.

524
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: She didn't really love her kids.

525
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 7: You can see that from her just giving Marcel to

526
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 7: Cecilia as some sort of prize.

527
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: I asked Mirinda about this, her upbringing and a relationship

528
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 3: to her own children. Again, the noise inside the prison

529
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 3: visiting room was so bad that this is an actor

530
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 3: reading her response.

531
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: You know, we grew up.

532
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: We grew up in a generation where our parents, my

533
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: parents never until to day ever told me that they

534
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: loved me, ever wagged me or anything like that. They

535
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: would kiss you, allow goodbye, you know, but that's it.

536
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: So I think I was maybe over loving and overprotective

537
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: with my children, but they knew I loved them and

538
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: I was a good mother.

539
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 3: Throughout our conversation, Marinda spoke highly of Marcel, told me

540
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 3: that her daughter was good and had no part in

541
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 3: any of the crimes. The judge honored Marcel's fear for

542
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 3: her life and her wishes not to be anywhere near

543
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 3: her mother in Cecilia. He sentenced Marcel not to Sun's city,

544
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 3: but to a prison in Pretoria. Whether Marinda admits it

545
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 3: or not, her self proclaimed affectionless upbringing has been passed

546
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 3: down well. I think it's safe to say that Marcel

547
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 3: and LaRue's experience was quite a bit more severe than

548
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 3: Marenda's circumstances growing up. But all of this seems to

549
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 3: be the product of a corrupt and broken system, old

550
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:37,320
Speaker 3: antiquated traditions, ones that victimize and suppress. They're dangerous. Forcing

551
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 3: human beings into social constructs will cause them to lash out.

552
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 3: Here is our resident scholar, doctor Niki Falkoff.

553
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 13: We could even speculate that, you know her character as

554
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 13: this kind of idealized mom teacher, perfect suburban white lady.

555
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 13: There's something fundamentally flawed in that characterization of white South

556
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 13: African women. I mean, it's possible that her identity, rather

557
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 13: than protecting her from this kind of manipulation, actually made

558
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 13: her even more vulnerable to it.

559
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 3: Belonging to belong is a very basic, primal impulse, one

560
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 3: of protection and self preservation. We need each other to survive.

561
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 3: This was even true for the followers of Queen Havoc.

562
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 7: Didn't feel that they belonged anyway, didn't feel wanted by society,

563
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 7: and then they meet this woman and she just say

564
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 7: you will welcome. Everyone is welcome. Yet if no one

565
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 7: wants you, I want you. And I think that was

566
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 7: extremely satisfying for everyone. They wanted to be part of

567
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 7: a group, They wanted to stay part.

568
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 3: Of a group. By the time LaRue was grown, he

569
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 3: was thoroughly conditioned to be rewarded for demonstrating brutality. His

570
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 3: self worth became tied to how savagely he could kill

571
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 3: another person.

572
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 10: You would think the one side of him would rebell

573
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 10: and run away, but yet Ezaki surrenders. He submerges, you know,

574
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 10: and he wanted to prove himself. That's why he did

575
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 10: the murders in Eduay. He wanted to show that he's worthy.

576
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 10: And it's actually said, you know.

577
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 3: All this is to say that it's important to consider

578
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 3: the walls that each of us have created around our

579
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 3: hearts and minds, and who we choose to reside within them.

580
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 3: Cults are scary, sure, but they are not altogether rare

581
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 3: or really even counterculture when you think about it. It's

582
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 3: right there in the word culture. It's in our nature

583
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:39,919
Speaker 3: to cultivate community. These concepts came alive in Cecilia's own

584
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 3: story when on the stand she claimed psychological and physical

585
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 3: abuse as a child, and when my producing partner Jennifer,

586
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 3: and I went into the prison again to meet Cecilia,

587
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 3: she elaborated, this was a moment I had been thinking

588
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 3: about and anticipating for over two years, I have to

589
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 3: admit I wanted to meet Cecilia Stein. Remember, prison in

590
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 3: South Africa differs greatly from the United States. There were

591
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 3: no shackles, no cuffs, nothing really protecting us from the

592
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 3: prisoners in the room. Even Ritzka described how she and

593
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 3: the rue sneak kisses during the visiting hours when the

594
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 3: guards turn their backs. We'll go into more detail in

595
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 3: our bonus episode about what it was like being in

596
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 3: Cecilia's presence, but for the moment, we'd like to just

597
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 3: share with you some of Cecilia's reflections. In an attempt

598
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 3: to answer some questions posed at the beginning of this podcast,

599
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 3: what drives our inherent human need to belong to something

600
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 3: and how do our relationships serve to satiate this primal desire,

601
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 3: We asked her to share her thoughts on the human

602
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 3: condition and our need for connection. To be clear, what

603
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 3: you're hearing this time is not an actor Celia Stein's

604
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 3: actual voice.

605
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 6: I think the only people that really love you unconditionally

606
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 6: is your children, the way they look at you, the

607
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,959
Speaker 6: way they trust you unconditionally, the way they would hug

608
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 6: you and and wait for you to go with them.

609
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 6: Because if you're scared to walk down a dark hallway,

610
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 6: or you know, truly feel unconditionally loved is by your children.

611
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 6: You can say your parents or whatever, but you look

612
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 6: at some people's parents' parents can be vindictive.

613
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 3: Colonel Christelle Boisen share this anecdote from Cecilia's childhood.

614
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 14: What we've been told is that Cecilia was actually one

615
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 14: of a twin boy twin he died in Vitra. So

616
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 14: when she grew up, her mother blamed her for the

617
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 14: death of her twin. So she grew up with this

618
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 14: I have the power to kill. I started killing when

619
00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 14: I was in my mother's womb.

620
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 3: Growing up under such serious maternal blaming, plus whatever else

621
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 3: might have happened to her as a young person read

622
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 3: a deep distrust of others. She shared with us a

623
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 3: terrifying memory from when she was only fifteen.

624
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 6: I was fifteen, Me and my girlfriend at a time

625
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 6: were at a friend of ours brother's twenty first birthday

626
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 6: party about two o'clock in the morning. We decided, okay,

627
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 6: stunt for us to go, and everybody was drinking, so

628
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 6: we said, you know what, we can walk on our

629
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 6: way home. We went through a shopping center's parking area.

630
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 6: The guy came walking up to us, asking me for

631
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 6: a lighter. So I bent down, obviously going through my

632
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 6: pockets looking for a lighter. And as I looked up,

633
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 6: he was standing there with a knife. So this guy's

634
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 6: robbing us. Without thinking, I grabbed the blade of his

635
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 6: knife my hand, bring to my pocket. Next thing I know,

636
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 6: my knife was in my hand, and the next thing

637
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 6: it was in his throat.

638
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 3: It's hard to believe the things that Cecilia says. Still,

639
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 3: if this first murder did in fact happen when she

640
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 3: was fifteen, it looks like it created a butterfly effect

641
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 3: that would show her just how fragile a human life is.

642
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 6: When everything was done and he was lying in the

643
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 6: parking lot and I'm sitting on the sidewalk, I'm looking

644
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 6: at this guy and thinking this is impossible. It can't

645
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 6: be that easy for a human being to die. Obviously,

646
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 6: all the emotions you go through afterwards, your body goes

647
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 6: in to shock, your nauses, you want to pass out,

648
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 6: you want to throw up, all at the same time,

649
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 6: your scared, you're confused, and you realize how easy it

650
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 6: is for someone to die, how easy it is for

651
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 6: you to take someone's life.

652
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 3: Based on what Cecilia shared with us about her perspective

653
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 3: on humanity, it seems that she was she is bereft

654
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 3: of hope.

655
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 6: I personally think that that humans is I don't know,

656
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,919
Speaker 6: specie that does not deserve to survive. If you look

657
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 6: at the way we act, the way we behave towards

658
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 6: each other, I would think twice about killing a spider

659
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 6: or something like that. A spiders the it does its job.

660
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 6: It doesn't judge you, it doesn't lie to you, it

661
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 6: doesn't steal from you. It just does what it has

662
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 6: to do and then goes on its merry way. Insects,

663
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 6: animals completely natural. It's humans that are unnatural.

664
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 3: It also seems Cecilia's longing to belong was so strong,

665
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 3: her need for a ten time so robust, and her

666
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 3: sense of connection so lacking early on, that she created

667
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 3: an environment in which those around her would never leave her,

668
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 3: a kind of emotional symbiosis to make sure they'd stick around.

669
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 3: In her mind, she was making them feel welcome and

670
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 3: feeding their desire for some kind of greater purpose. She

671
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 3: prayed on that I.

672
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 6: Think we all want to belong somewhere, you know, feel

673
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 6: like you're part of something feel like you have a purpose.

674
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 3: And Mirinda learned a lot from her. That two have

675
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 3: a deep reverence for each other. Even today, Mirinda especially

676
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 3: still idolizes Cecilia.

677
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: God put in my heart that she loves me just

678
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: as much as I love her. It's like we are

679
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: twins that type of connection, not the same person like.

680
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,280
Speaker 3: Soultai twins. How's that for Irony?

681
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 6: Me and Mironda close? You know, we're good friends.

682
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 2: We have a relationship where we can tell each.

683
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 6: Other anything, and you know, just by a look, you know,

684
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 6: in what mood someone is. She's the first person I

685
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 6: tell when something's wrong. She's an amazing person. She's really

686
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 6: an amazing person.

687
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 3: Marinda's love perhaps went a bit further.

688
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 13: I joked about it.

689
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: I joked about it, you know, like I'm discovering that

690
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: I'm also gay. It's a pity we couldn't have gone

691
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: for each other. But it would feel like incest just

692
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: because I think she's the perfect person. You know, it's

693
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: kind of if we could date, that would have been

694
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: the perfect thing, but sadly it would just be wrong.

695
00:43:55,360 --> 00:44:00,320
Speaker 3: While this information does ground these two terrifying people for us,

696
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 3: it does not, by any means excuse their actions, neither

697
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 3: exhibits a scrap of remorse.

698
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 1: I felt this compassion with these people. I felt very

699
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: sorry for them, But what can I say. I'm not

700
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 1: sorry that I killed them.

701
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 3: Four years into her thirteen life sentences, Cecilia still denies

702
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 3: any involvement with the murders.

703
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 6: I'm not a person that really regreates things easily. I

704
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 6: regret what I put my children through. I regret the

705
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 6: impact it has on them. But I think I've learned

706
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 6: a lot in that.

707
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,839
Speaker 4: You know, so.

708
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 6: I don't have a lot of regrets in my life.

709
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 3: Through everything, this case, these people, this story that has

710
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,240
Speaker 3: been a part of my life for over three years.

711
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 3: I keep coming back to this hard but simple truth

712
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 3: that good people can do horrible things, and that bad

713
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 3: people are capable of good. That's not to oversimplify the

714
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 3: lives of the victims and their families. The sheer destruction

715
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 3: that Cecilia Stein and Electus Perdaeus caused is staggering, but

716
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 3: the fact remains. We all have a dark side, two

717
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 3: wolves that live inside each of us. Whichever one we

718
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 3: feed takes over. The choice is ours. We get to

719
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 3: choose how far will go for belonging to quote the

720
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 3: Great Joan Didion. We tell ourselves stories in order to live.

721
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 3: Cecilia Stein told her followers' stories in order to kill.

722
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 3: She fed them these stories in order to shroud them

723
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 3: in a sense of purpose. She used these stories to

724
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 3: satiate the primal need to belong. Stories have power, They

725
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 3: feed the wolf. They are the way we navigate our world.

726
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 3: So I suppose this forces the question, what stories are

727
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 3: you telling yourself? Thank you all for joining us on

728
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 3: this adventure. It has truly been an honor to be

729
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 3: your host. Be good to each other and yourselves. Join

730
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 3: us for our bonus episode. You'll hear more unbelievably candid

731
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 3: moments with Cecilia Stein herself and an update on the

732
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 3: current investigation against the corrupt cops, as well as behind

733
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 3: the scenes conversations about our adventures in South Africa. Queen

734
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 3: Havoc and Her Murder Cult is a production of Schooly

735
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 3: Humans and iHeart Podcasts. Queen Havoc is hosted and created

736
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 3: by me Kurt Kupachek, produced and written by Jennifer Takeny,

737
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:08,320
Speaker 3: Julia Chriscau, and Kirk Kupachick. Lead producer is Julia Chriscau.

738
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 3: Story editor is Saren Burnett. Senior producer is Amelia Brock.

739
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 3: Production manager is Daisy Church. Original music composed by Claire Campbell, Editing,

740
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 3: sound design and scoring by Jesse Niswanger. Additional editing by

741
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 3: Miranda Hawkins. Associate producers are DaShan Moodley and Jermaine Kriher.

742
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 3: Additional producing by Ben Melman, fact checking by Dennis Webster.

743
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 3: Recording engineers are Graham Gibson, Clay Hillenberg, and Josh Hook.

744
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 3: Brenda Stein was read by Angelique Pretorius. Ria Grunovald's testimony

745
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 3: is read by Madeline Page. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley,

746
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 3: Brandon Barr, Jennifer Ta Kenny and Kurt Kupachick. We want

747
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 3: to thank all of those who so generously welcomed us

748
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 3: in South Africa and shared their stories. We're incredibly grateful

749
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 3: to you all. We also want to acknowledge how traumatic

750
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 3: these events are for the victims and their families. Please

751
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 3: respect their privacy. If you or someone you know has

752
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 3: been affected by cult behaviors, there are resources available, including

753
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 3: Voices for Dignity at Christine Murray dot com