WEBVTT - How the Sharing Economy Got Hijacked, And How to Win It Back 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.840 Well, really excited to round out today's show talking about 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:08.200 a new book do out on Labor Day. Appropriately, it's 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.479 by Juliet Shure, professor of sociology at Boston College. The 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:13.840 book is called After the Gig, How the Sharing Economy 0:00:13.880 --> 0:00:18.240 Got Hijacked and How to Win it back. Her latest book, 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.120 she has looked very holistically about where we are when 0:00:22.120 --> 0:00:27.040 it comes to work, life and culture. Professor Shore, Juliette, 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:29.040 really nice to have you with us. Congrats on the book. 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:32.279 Oh thanks, It's a great pleasure to be here. So 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:35.239 tell us what inspired this because this really is at 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:40.280 the heart of so many things that we've been talking about. 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.320 And I feel like we were really on this train 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:47.280 for the gig economy, and then things started to kind 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:50.280 of veer off, and heck, here we are in twenty twenty. 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:52.800 It feels like everything's veered off. So tell us how 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.280 you got inspired to do this in the first place. Well, 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.200 I was writing a book in two thousand eight nine 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.680 about sort of how we could respond to what at 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:06.479 that time, of course, was the financial collapse and economic 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.200 problems and the climate crisis. It was really interested in 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:14.199 ways that people could begin to be more self sufficient. 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.600 De link from jobs. They really didn't want to be 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.520 in corporate you know, kind of rat race jobs. And 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.120 one of the things I started looking at as they 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:31.200 were just being founded were new sharing economy initiatives, things 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:37.360 like Airbnb. Originally the ride share companies now now no 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:41.399 longer really ride share, but um so these things were 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.959 all just getting started. They were being founded just as 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.440 I was writing that book. As soon as I finished 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.360 that book, I started on a research project and I've 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:53.560 spent the last ten years studying the sort of early 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.480 promise of the gig or what was called the sharing economy, 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:01.400 and then of course how things developed. So in in 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.960 your research, was there one big takeaway that you learn 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:09.840 from this, Well, I say there too. I mean the 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.839 first one is that these were This technology that these 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:19.359 platforms us is really great and it does hold wonderful promise. 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.000 But the platforms came to be they were founded by 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:28.440 and then investors came in, people who really weren't interested 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:33.760 in having them achieve all the social benefits um that 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:36.560 you know, they were promising in the early days, and 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:41.880 they really just went for market domination, growth and profitability, 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:46.600 and they kind of commercialized what was originally supposed to 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:53.080 be a very personal person to person kind of economic structure. 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:58.280 So that's one takeaway. It's sort of you know, greed, 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.440 greed got the better of these things. Um. But there's 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.880 one other really important finding in our book, which is 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:11.720 that people who were just using these platforms for extra income, 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:16.200 what we call supplemental income, mostly had really good experiences 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:20.240 on them. And whether we're talking Airbnb, ridehals, we looked 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:22.320 at a lot of task rabbit, which is a kind 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:27.640 of errands and home home based work platform. People who 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.440 were trying to earn a living on them, we're really 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.560 having to struggle, and you know, many of them were 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.680 earning below the poverty line. We didn't have any of 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.280 those what we call dependent earners who were actually making 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:44.200 a good living. So one of the problems is that 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.600 more and more people on these platforms are people who 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.960 need to make a living on them, and that's especially 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:54.680 true in ridehal and food delivery. So the that's another 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:57.640 really important thing that I think has has gotten lost, 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:02.280 which is that they're they're really not feasible as jobs. 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:06.120 And yet of course many you know, they they offer 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:10.720 themselves as as being able to provide like a real 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:14.400 income to people especially ride hail food delivery, but it 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.039 doesn't work. And Juliette, I gotta ask you. I mean, 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.279 you've been doing this research, as you said, really looking 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.960 into this for the better part of a decade, and 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:27.040 here we get to and I feel like everything gets 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:31.520 turned upside down, including the gig economy, the sharing economy, 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:35.000 however you wanted to find it. Every aspect of every 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:40.279 economy got turned upside down. Absolutely. I mean right hailing collapsed, 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:46.839 suddenly there was insatiable demand for in store shoppers and delivery. UM. 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:49.400 The other thing that we're seeing in the interviews we're 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:54.920 doing is that these workers can't get work anymore because 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.159 the companies have hired so many people. There was a 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:01.920 story out in Bloomberg today about UM a group of 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:07.920 delivery workers on Amazon who were positioning phones in trees 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:10.960 right next to the stores as a way of being 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:14.920 the first one because that the algorithm picks the closest phones. 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:19.200 So it's gotten really brutal out there. Our people were 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.080 interviewing or telling us that, you know, other people are 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:26.520 using bots to snag ships, and so they can't get 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.599 work anymore. So, yes, it's really upended a lot of 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.720 people's lives. The other part of the story is what's 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.880 happened with Uber in California and the idea that the 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.800 drivers for Uber need to be it's been put off, 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:41.880 but can be classified as workers, so they have to 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:46.600 get paid things like paid leaven insurance or security, et cetera. Um, 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:48.560 what do you make of that? I'm have two minds. 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.600 I mean, one is like, we'll do the workers actually 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.400 want to be classified as such if they're just making 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.960 extra income? Or is this a good thing because it's 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.440 sort of moves that develops that industry, matures that industry. 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:05.600 What's your So the polling will show that most workers 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.599 would like to be independent contractors, and that's you know, 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.039 many of them got into this work because of the 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:15.160 freedom that it offers. But what's happened is that many 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:21.880 drivers began to realize that they they were they couldn't 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.480 make it, as I sees, and they sort of reluctantly 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:27.719 came around to the idea that the only way they're 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.880 going to get a decent income and decent working conditions 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:36.120 is as UM employees. So the the sort of the 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:40.240 squeeze that Uber and Littz put on the drivers in California, 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:44.800 especially Uh, they've they've really been squeezed. I mean, you 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.479 read all these stories of drivers sleeping in their cars 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.039 and they're spending you know, a huge fraction now of 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:56.320 their time driving around with empty cars. So they they 0:06:56.440 --> 0:07:01.320 came to support this law a B five, which reclassifies 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:05.120 them as employees. The real rub is is whether the 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.800 companies will continue to give them flexibility if they're if 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:13.160 they do convert them to employees. It's something that companies 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.040 can do. They're gonna have to tweak the model. They're 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.760 saying it's impossible. Um, but I don't think that's true. 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.720 And of course they're playing hardball. They've they've got a 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:28.840 two hundred million dollar flush fund to pass a proposition 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:34.120 overturning the law for them, And um, I have a 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:38.360 good friend who's being harassed by the pr companies that 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.400 that Uber and Lyft have hired. So it's it's gotten 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:47.960 into a nasty fight. And so who ultimately can should 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:53.520 will kind of fix this to some extent, because you 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:55.760 do say even in the title of your book, we 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:59.000 can sort of win this back to some extent. Who 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.400 needs to come to the able to figure this out? Well, 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.800 there are two paths to to winning it back. I 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.600 mean one we we have begun to see some fruits 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.600 of and that is the regulatory path. New York put 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.800 in a minimum wage for right held drivers in it 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:22.200 regulated Airbnb, so it's you know, it's much better in 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:26.480 in New York they have a after expenses drivers need 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.000 to get seventeen dollars an hour, so that's you know, 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:32.760 a much more reasonable wage than the sort of seven 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:36.520 dollars that were five dollars even that some drivers around 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.760 the country are getting after expenses are taken care of. Um. 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.320 So regulation is one thing really important. Also, a lot 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.480 of big workers are joining unions, so that gives another 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:51.520 sort of counter force to the power of the platform companies. 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.520 But one of the things my research team and I 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:57.480 studied is is, uh, you know, a little bit more 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:59.880 out of the box. It's called a platform co opera 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.760 off where the workers actually own the platform, they own 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.160 the technology, and so they're they're not up against management 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:12.040 or investors. They actually can exploy that technology for themselves. 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:18.360 And it's the cooperative model works really well here because 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.000 the technology has pretty much innovated away a lot of 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:26.800 what management normally does. So technology and workers together is 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:30.199 a pretty efficient outcome, and we studied, we did one 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.439 of the first studies of a platform cooperative and it's 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:36.080 been really successful. And they're you know, there's just a 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.040 few of them still, but they are popping up in 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.920 house cleaning, there's up and up and glow in New 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:46.760 York and dr driving bicycle careers are forming coops all 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.400 over Europe and a little bit in North America too. 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:52.200 So that's sort of like the different type of union, 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.000 non traditional fight big corporation, but it's sort of its 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.480 own independent union. Does that make sense, Yeah, except that 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.120 the work is actually owned the company. I guess like 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:07.439 the new iteration of this Yeah, absolutely, wow, interesting, interesting, 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.360 what could what's the next sort of catalyst here? I 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.720 feel like we live in a world of catalysts, Like 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:17.439 what's going to force this issue? Juliette, Well, I do 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.520 think if we get a democratic administration, there's going to 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:25.160 be some movement on this at the national level because 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.079 the inability of these gig workers. You know, there are 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:30.800 now more and more of them, when we're talking about 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.480 millions and millions of workers in this country, you know, 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.280 really a growing sector who don't even have access to 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:41.360 unemployment insurance or health benefits are really you know, basic things. 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:47.120 So the the the first bill out of Congress to 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.560 deal with Corona, the Cares Act, did set up a 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.760 special fund for these gig workers. So they've they've finally 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:57.080 gotten a toe hold into federal policy. And I think 0:10:57.120 --> 0:11:00.160 you're gonna see that really expand if you of a 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.360 Democratic administration. All right, well, we will certainly keep an 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:08.480 eye on this story. Congratulations on an incredibly timely book, 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.600 and it sounds like a long time in the making 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:15.080 in terms of the research. So just a rich vein 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:16.679 to mind here and we look forward to keep me 0:11:16.720 --> 0:11:19.920 in touch. In touch. Juliet Shore is professor of sociology 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.920 at Boston College. Her new book appropriately coming out right 0:11:22.960 --> 0:11:25.480 around Labor Day After the Gig, How the sharing economy 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.360 got hijacked and how to win it back.