1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. Hi, Better Offline fans, It's me, your 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: host ed zetron. Now Here in America, it's Thanksgiving, so 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: we're all given the week off. Robert and Sophie have 4 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: told me I'm not allowed to podcast and if they 5 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: find out, they're going to once again put me in 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: the carnival prison. And once again I was sent a 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 1: lo quality jpeg of a gun by Robert. Unclear what 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 1: it means. Nevertheless, this is one of my favorite episodes 9 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: I've ever recorded. It's about a real shithead who destroyed 10 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: a product I love, you love and we both are 11 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: doomed to use every day. Now. If you're not in America, 12 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: and this is a big problem, I don't know what 13 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: to tell you. The podcast doesn't cost you any money, unless, 14 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: of course, you pay five dollars a month for our 15 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: cooler Zoe Media, in which case I apologize deeply. I 16 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: will be sleeping not at all this week as penance 17 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: for what I've done to you. For the rest of 18 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: you in America, no penance necessary, Please enjoy this episode. Hello, 19 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host ed zig tron. Well, 20 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: and in the next two episodes, I'm going to tell 21 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: you the names some of the people responsible for destroying 22 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: the Internet. And I'm going to start on February fifth, 23 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, when Ben Gomes, Google's former head of Search, well, 24 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: he had a problem. Jerry Dishler, then the VP and 25 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: GM of Ads at Google, and Shivvan Carterman, then the 26 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: VP of Engineering Search and Ads on Google properties, had 27 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: called something called a code yellow for search revenue due 28 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: to and I quote emails that came out as part 29 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 1: of Google's anti trust hearing steady weakness in the daily 30 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: numbers and a likeliness that it would end the quarter 31 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: significantly behind in metrics. That kind of unclear for those 32 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: unfamiliar with Google's internal kind of scientology esque jargon, which 33 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: means most people, let me explain, a good yellow isn't 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: a terrible need to piss or some sort of crisis 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: of moderate severity. The yellow, according to Stephen Levey's Tell 36 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: All book about Google, refers to and I promise this 37 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: is not a joke, the color of a tank top 38 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: that a former VP of Engineering called Wayne Rosling used 39 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: to wear during his time at the company. It's essentially 40 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: the equivalent of deafcom I and activates as Levy explained 41 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: a war room like situation where workers are pulled from 42 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: their desks and into a conference room where they tackle 43 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: the problem as a top priority. Any other projects or 44 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:35,119 Speaker 1: concerns are sidelined and independently. I've heard there are other 45 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: colors like purple. I'm not going to get into that, though, 46 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: it's quite boring and irrelevant to this situation. In emails 47 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: released as part of the Department of Justices antitrust case 48 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 1: against Google, as a previously mentioned, Dishler laid out several 49 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 1: contributing factors. Search query growth was significantly behind forecast, the 50 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: timing of revenue launches was significantly behind, and he had 51 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: this vague worry that several advertiser specific and sector weaknesses 52 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: existed in search. Now I want to cover something because 53 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: I've messed up, and I really want to be clear 54 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: about this. I've previously and erroneously referred to the code 55 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: yellow as something that Gomes raised as a means of 56 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: calling attention to the proximity of Google's ad side getting 57 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: a little too close to Search. I'm afraid the truth 58 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: is extremely depressing and so much grimmar. The code yellow 59 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: was actually the rumble of the goddamn rot economy, with 60 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 1: Google's revenue arms sounding the alarm that its golden goose 61 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: wasn't laying enough eggs. Gomes, a Googler of nineteen years 62 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: that basically built the foundation of modern search engines, should 63 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: go down as one of the few people in tech 64 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: that actually fought for an actual principle, and he was 65 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: destroyed by a guy called Prabaka Ragavan, a computer scientist 66 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: class traitor that sided with the management consultancy sect. More confusingly, 67 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: one of their problems was that there was insufficient growth 68 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: in queries, as in the amount of things that people 69 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: were asking Google. It's a bit like if Ford decided 70 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: that things were going poorly because their drivers weren't putting 71 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: enough goddamn miles on their trucks. This whole story has 72 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: personally upset me, and I think you're going to hear 73 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: that in this but going through these emails is just 74 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: very depressing. Anyway. A few days beforehand, on February first, 75 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,239 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Kristen Gil, then Google's VP Business Finance Officer, 76 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: had emailed Shashi Thakker, then Google's VP of Engineering Search 77 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: and Discover, saying that the ADS team had been considering 78 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: a code yellow to close the search gap it was seeing, 79 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: vaguely referring to how critical that growth was to an 80 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: unnamed company plan. To be clear, this email was in 81 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: response to Thaker stating that there is nothing that the 82 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 1: search team could do to operate at the fidelity of 83 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 1: growth that the ads department had demanded. Shashy Forward did 84 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: the email to Gomes asking if there's any way to 85 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: discuss this with Sandharpashai, Google CEO, and declared that there 86 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: was no way he would sign up for a high 87 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: fidelity businessman for daily active users on search. Sakker also 88 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: said something that I've been thinking about constantly since I 89 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: read these emails, that there was a good reason that 90 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: Google's founders separated search from ads. I want you to 91 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: remember that line for later. A day later, on February second, 92 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Thacker and Gomes shared their anxieties with Nick Fox, 93 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: a vice president of Search and Google assistant, entering a 94 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: multiple day long debate about Google's some lust for growth. 95 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: This thread is a dark window into the world of 96 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: growth focus tech, where the Kerr listed the multiple points 97 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: of disconnection between ADS and search, discussing how the search 98 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: team wasn't able to finally optimize engagement on Google without 99 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: hacking it, a term that means effectively tricking users into 100 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: spending more time on a site, and that doing so 101 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: would lead them to and I quote, abandoned work on 102 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: efficient journeys. In one email, Fox adds that there was 103 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: a pretty big disconnect between what finance and ads wants 104 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: Search was doing. Every part of this story pisses me 105 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: off so much. When Gomes pushed back on the multiple 106 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: requests for growth, Fox added that all three of them 107 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: were responsible for Search and that Search was and again 108 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: I quote, the revenue engine of the company, and that 109 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: bartering with the ads and finance teams was now potentially 110 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: the new reality of their jobs. On February sixth, twenty nineteen, 111 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: Gomes said that he believed that Search was getting too 112 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: close to the money and ended his email by saying 113 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 1: that he was concerned that growth is all that Google 114 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: was thinking about. On March twenty second, twenty nineteen, Google 115 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: VP of Product Management Darshan Kantac would declare the end 116 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: of the code yellow. The thread mostly consisted of congratulatory 117 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: emails until Gomes made the mistake of responding congratulating everyone, 118 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: saying that the plans architected as part of the code 119 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: yellow would do well throughout the year. Enter probaka Ragavan, 120 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: then Google's head of Ads and the true mastermind behind 121 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: the Yellow, who would respond curtly saying that the current 122 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: revenue targets were addressed by heroic RPM engineering and that 123 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,679 Speaker 1: the core query softness continued without mitigation, a very clunky 124 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: way of saying that despite these changes, query growth was 125 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: not happening at the rate he needed it to. A 126 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: day later, Gomes emailed Fox Andhaker an email he intended 127 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: to center Ragavan. He led by saying that he was 128 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: annoyed both personally and on behalf of the search team. 129 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: In this very long email, he explained in arduous detail 130 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: how one might increase engagement with Google Search, but specifically 131 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: added that they could increase queries quite easily in the 132 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: short term, but only in user negative ways, like turning 133 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: off spell correction or ranking improvements, or placing refinements effectively 134 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: labels all over the page, adding that it was possible 135 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,119 Speaker 1: that there are trade offs here between the different kinds 136 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: of user negativity caused by engagement hacking, and that he 137 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: was deeply, deeply uncomfortable with this, He also added that 138 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: this was the reason he didn't believe that queries, as 139 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: in the amount of the things with people searching on Google, 140 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: were a good metric to measure search, and that the 141 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: best defense against the weaknesses of queries was to create 142 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: compelling user experiences that make users want to come back. 143 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: Crazy idea there, what if the product was good? Not 144 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: good enough? Of prabaka, so little bit of history about 145 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: Google here. They regularly throughout the year do Core updates 146 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: to Search. These are updates that change the algorithm. Let's say, okay, 147 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: we're going to suppress this kind of thing. We can 148 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 1: elevate this kind of thing. And they are actually the 149 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: reason that search changes. It's why certain sites suddenly disappear 150 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: or reappear. It's why sites get a ton of traffic, 151 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: some don't get any, and so on and so forth. 152 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: But they do a lot of them. The one that's 153 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: really interesting and a little bastard and I went and 154 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: looked through pretty much the last decade of these. The 155 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: one that stood out to me was the March twenty 156 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: nineteen Core update to Search, which happened about a week 157 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: before the end of the code yell, meaning that it's 158 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: very likely that this was a result of Prabaka's bullshit. 159 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: So this was expected to be one of the largest 160 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: updates to search in a very long time, and I'm 161 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: quoting Search Engine Journal there. Yet when it launched, many 162 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: found that the update mostly rolled back changes and traffic 163 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: was increasing to sites that had been suppressed by previous updates, 164 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: like Google Search's Penguin update from twenty twelve that specifically 165 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: targeted spami search results. There were others that were seeing 166 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: traffic as well from an update that happened on the 167 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: first of August twenty eighteen that was a few months 168 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: after Gomes became head of Search. While I'm guessing here, 169 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: I really don't know. I do not work for Google. 170 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: I do not have friends there. I think the timing 171 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: of the March twenty nineteen Core update, along with the 172 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: traffic increases the previously suppressed sites that one hundred percent 173 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: were spamy seo nonsense. I think these suggest that Google's 174 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: response to the Cojello was to roll back changes that 175 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 1: were made to maintain the quality of search. A few 176 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: months later, in May twenty nineteen, Google would roll out 177 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: a redesign of how ads were shown on Google Search. 178 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: Specifically on mobile, replacing the bright green AD label and 179 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: URL color on ads with a tiny, little, bolded black 180 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: note that said AD in the smallest font you could 181 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: possibly put there, with the link looking otherwise identical to 182 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: a regular search link. I guess that's how they managed 183 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: to start hating their numbers. Hah. And then in January 184 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Google would bring this change to desktop, and 185 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: the vergins John Porter would suggest that it made Google's 186 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: ads look just like search results now awesome. Five months later, 187 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: a little over a year after the code yellow situation, 188 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: Google would make Probakar Ragavan the head of Google Search, 189 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: with Jerry Dishler taking his place as the head of Ads. 190 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: After nearly twenty years of building Google Search domes would 191 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: be relegated to the SVP of Education at Google Domes. 192 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: It was a critical part of the original team that 193 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,479 Speaker 1: made Google Search work, who has been credited with establishing 194 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: the culture of the world's largest and most important search engine, 195 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,560 Speaker 1: was chased out by a growth hungry managerial type, several 196 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: of them actually led by Probagar Ragavan, a management consultant 197 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: wearing an engineer costume. As a side note, by the 198 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: way I use the term management consultant there as a pejorative, 199 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: while he exhibits all the same being counting morally young 200 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: guided behaviors of a management consultant. From what I can tell, 201 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,599 Speaker 1: Ragavan has never actually worked in that particular sector of 202 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: the economy. But you know who has. San Dhar Pishai, 203 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: the CEO of Google, who previously worked at McKinsey, arguably 204 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: the most morally abhorrent company that's ever existed, having played 205 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: roles both in the two thousand and eight financial crisis, 206 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: where it encouraged banks to load up on debt and 207 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: floored mortgage backed securities, and the ongoing opiord crisis, where 208 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: it effectively advised Perdue Farmer on how to growth hack 209 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: sales of oxy content, an extremely addictive painkiller. McKinsey has 210 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: paid nearly one billion dollars over several settlements due to 211 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: its work with Perdue. But I'm getting sidetracked, but one 212 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 1: last point. McKinsey is actively anti labor. When a company 213 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: brings in a McKinsey consultant, they're often there to advise 214 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: on how to cut costs, which inevitably means layoffs and outsourcing. 215 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,839 Speaker 1: McKinsey is to the middle class. What fleshy in bacteria 216 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: is the skin. But back to the emails, which are 217 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: a stark example of the monstrous, disgusting rot economy, the 218 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: growth that all costs, mindset that's dominating the tech ecosystem. 219 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: And if you take one thing away from this episode, 220 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: I want it to be the name Prabakar Ragavan, and 221 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: I'm understanding that there are people responsible for the current 222 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: state of the Internet. These emails, which I really encourage 223 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: you to look up and if you go to where's 224 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: youreaed dot at, you'll be able to see a newslet 225 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 1: that has links to them. Well, these emails tell a 226 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: dramatic story about how Google's finance and advertising teams, led 227 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: by Ragavan, with the blessing of CEO Sandhar Pashai, the 228 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: McKinsey guy, actively worked to make Google worse to make 229 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: the company more money. This is exactly what I mean 230 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: when I talk about the economy, an illogical, product destroying 231 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: mindset that turns products you love into torturous, frustrating, quasi 232 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 1: tools that require you to fight the company to get 233 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: the thing you want. Ben Gomes was instrumental in making 234 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: search work both as a product and a business. He 235 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: joined the company in nineteen ninety nine, a time long 236 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: before Google established dominance in the field, and the same 237 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: year when Larry Page and Sergey Britain tried to sell 238 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,199 Speaker 1: the company to Excite for one million dollars, only to 239 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: walk away after Vinnard Coosler and Excite investor and co 240 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: founder of some Microsystems that's now a VC who tried 241 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: to stop people going to a beach in half Moon Bay, Well, 242 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: he tried to low ball them with a seven hundred 243 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: and fifty thousand dollars offer, also known as a one 244 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: hundred square apartment in San Francisco. In an interview with 245 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: Fast Companies Harry McCracken from twenty eighteen, Gomes frayed Google's 246 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: challenge as taking the page erank algorithm from one machine 247 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: to a whole bunch of machines and they weren't very 248 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: good machines at the time. Despite his impact and tenure, 249 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: Gomes had only been made head of Search in the 250 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: middle of twenty eighteen after John Gillanderia moved to Apple 251 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: to work on its machine learning in AR strategy. Domes 252 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: had been described as Google's searches are beloved for his 253 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: ability to communicate across Google's many quite decentralized apartments. Every 254 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: single article I've read about Gomes and his tenure at 255 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: Google spoke of a man deeply ingrained in the foundation 256 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: of one of the most important technologies ever made, a 257 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: man who had dedicated decades to maintaining a product with 258 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: a and I quote Gomes here guiding light of serving 259 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: the user and using technology to do that. And when 260 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: finally given the keys to the kingdom, the ability to 261 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: elevate Google Search even further, he was rap fucked by 262 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: a series of rotten carerists trying to please Wall Street, 263 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: led by Probakar Ragavan. Do you want to know what 264 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: Provacar Ragavan's old job was? What Probacar Ragavan, the new 265 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: head of Google Search, the guy that ran Google Search, 266 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: that runs Google Search right now, that is running Google 267 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: Search into the goddamn ground. Do you want to know 268 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: what his job was? His job before Google, He was 269 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: the head of search for god damn Yahoo from two 270 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: thousand and five through two thy and twelve when he 271 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: joined the company. When Probakar Ragavan took over Yahoo Search, 272 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: they held a thirty point four percent market share, not 273 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: far from Google's own thirty six point nine percent, and 274 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: miles ahead of the fifteen point seven percent that Microsoft's 275 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: MSN Search had. By May twenty twelve, Yahoo was down 276 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: to just thirteen point four percent and had shrunk for 277 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: the previous nine consecutive months, and was being beaten by 278 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: even the newly released Bing. That same year, Yahoo had 279 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: the largest layoffs in its corporate history, shedding two thousand employees, 280 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: or fourteen percent of its overall workforce. The man who deposed, 281 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: Ben Gomes, someone who worked on Google Search from its 282 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: very beginnings, was so shit at his job that in 283 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, Yahoo effectively threw in the towel 284 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: on its own search tech, instead choosing to license Being's 285 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: engine in a ten year deal. If we take a 286 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: long view of things, this likely precipitated the overall decline 287 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: of the company, which went from being worth one hundred 288 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: and twenty five billion dollars at the peak of the 289 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: dot com boom to being sold to Verizon for four 290 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: point eight billion dollars in twenty seventeen, which is roughly 291 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: a three thousand square foot apartment in San Francisco. With 292 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: search no longer a priority, in making less money, for 293 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: the company, Yahoo decided to pivot into Web two point 294 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: zero and original content, making sum bats that paid off, 295 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: but far far too many that did not. It spent 296 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: one point one billion dollars on Tumblr in twenty thirteen, 297 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: only for Verizon to sell it for just three million 298 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: dollars in twenty nineteen. Zimbra in two thousand and seven, 299 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: ostensibly to complete with the new Google Apps productivity Suite, 300 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: only to sell it for a reported fraction of the 301 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: original purchase price to VMware a few years later. That's 302 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: not his fault, but nevertheless, Yahoo was a company without 303 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: a mission, a purpose, or an objective. Nobody and I'll 304 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: speculate even though his leading the company really knew what 305 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: it was and what it did. Anyway, just a big 306 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: shout out right now to Kura Swisher, who referred to 307 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: Pradaka as well respected. When he moved from Yahoo to Google. 308 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: He absolutely nailed at Kara bang up job. In an 309 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: interview with ZDNTS Dan Farber from two thousand and five, 310 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,439 Speaker 1: Ragavan spoke of his intent to align the commercial incentives 311 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: of a billion content providers with social good intent while 312 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: at Yahoo and his eagerness to inspire the audience to 313 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: give more data. What anyway before that? It's it's actually 314 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: hard to find out exactly what Ragavan did, though according 315 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: to zd net, he spent fourteen years doing search and 316 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: data mind research ibm MM. In April twenty eleven, The 317 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: Guardian ran an interview with Ragavan that called him Yahoo's 318 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: secret weapon, describing his plan to make rigorous scientific research 319 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: and practice to inform Yahoo's business from email to advertising, 320 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: and how under then CEO Carol Bart's the focus had 321 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: shifted to the direct development of new products. It speaks 322 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: of Ragavan's scientific approach and his steady process based logic 323 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 1: to innovation that is very different to the common perception 324 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: the ideas and development are more about luck and spontaneity. 325 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: A sentence that I'm only reading to you because I 326 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,439 Speaker 1: really need you to hear how stupid it sounds and 327 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,959 Speaker 1: how specious some of the tech press used to be. Frankly, 328 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: this entire article is ridiculous, so utterly vacuous that I'm 329 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: actually astonished. I don't want to name the reporter. I 330 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: feel bad. What about Ragavan's career made this feel right? 331 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: How has nobody connected these thoughts before I have a 332 00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: day job. I run a PR firm, I am a 333 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:05,479 Speaker 1: blogger with a podcast, and I'm the one who said, yeah, okay, 334 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: drag Uller is now the CEO of the blood Bank. 335 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: Nobody saw this. Nobody saw this at the time. I 336 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 1: just feel a bit crazy. I feel a bit crazy. 337 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: But to be clear, this was something written several years 338 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: after Yahoo had licensed its search technology to Microsoft in 339 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: a financial deal that the next CEO, Marissa Maya, who 340 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: replaced Barts, was still angry about for years. Ragavan's reign 341 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: as what zd Neat referred to as the search Master 342 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: was one so successful that it ended up being replaced 343 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: by a search engine that not a single person in 344 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: the world enjoys saying out loud. The Guardian article ran 345 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: exactly one year before dramatic layoffs at Yahoo that involved 346 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: firing entire divisions worth of people, and four months before 347 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: Carol Barts would be fired by telephone by then chairman 348 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 1: Roy Bostock. Her replacement, Scott Thompson, who previously served as 349 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: president of PayPal, would last a whole five months in 350 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: the role before he was replaced by former Google executive 351 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: Marissa Mayer. In part because it emerged he lied on 352 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: his resume about having a computer science degree. Hey, Brobaka, 353 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: did you not notice that? Anyway? Whatever, Barts joined Yahoo 354 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine, so about four years into 355 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: Braba Kha's reign of terror. I guess, and she joined 356 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of its previous CEO, Jerry Yang, refusing 357 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: to sell the company to Microsoft for forty five billion dollars. 358 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: In her first year, she laid off hundreds of people 359 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: and struck a deal that I've mentioned before to power 360 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: Yahoo Search using Microsoft's being search engine tech, with Microsoft 361 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 1: paying Yahoo eighty eight percent of the revenue it gained 362 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 1: from searches, a deal that made ya who are couple 363 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars for handing over the keys and the 364 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: tech to its most high traffic platform. As I previously stated, 365 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: when Brabakhar Ragavan, Yahoo's secret weapon was doing his work, 366 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: Yahoo Search was so valuable that it was replaced by 367 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: Bing its sole value. In fact, I mean, maybe I'm 368 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: being a little unfair. There's a way of looking at 369 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: this that you could say that Yahoo's entire value at 370 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: the end of his career was driven by nostalgia and 371 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: association with days before he worked there. Anyway, thanks to 372 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: the state of modern search. It's actually very, very difficult 373 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: to find much about Ragavan's history. It took me hours 374 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: of digging through Google and at one point being embarrassingly 375 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: to find three or four articles that went into any 376 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: depth about him. But from what I've gleaned, his expertise 377 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: lies primarily in failing upwards ascending through the ranks of 378 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: technology on the momentum from the explosions he's coursed. In 379 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 1: a wide interview from twenty twenty one, GLAD handler Stephen 380 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: Levy said Ragavan isn't the CEO of Google, he just 381 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: runs the place, and described his addition to the company 382 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: as a move from research to management. Bill Levy calls 383 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: him a world class computer scientist who has authored definitive 384 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: text in the field, which is true. He also describes 385 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,439 Speaker 1: Ragavan as choosing a management track, which definitely tracks with 386 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: everything I found out about him. Ragavan proudly declares that 387 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: Google's third party ad tech plays a critical role in 388 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,439 Speaker 1: keeping journalism alive and a really shitty answer to a 389 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: question that was also made at a time when he 390 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: was in aggressively incentivizing search engine optimized content and a 391 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: year after he'd deposed someone who actually gave a shit 392 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: about search. Under Ragavan, Google has become less reliable and 393 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: it's dominated by search engine optimization and just outright spam. 394 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: And I've said this before, but look, we complain about 395 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: the state of Twitter under Elon Musk and justifiably he's 396 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: a vile, anti, semi racist bigger. We all know this. 397 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: It's fully true. We can say a million times. However, 398 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: I'd argue that Ragavan, by extension Sandhar Pashai, deserve one 399 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: hundred times more criticism. They've on unfathomable damage to society. 400 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: You really can't fix the damage they've been doing and 401 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: the damage they'll continue to do, especially as we go 402 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: into an election. Ragavan and his cronies worked to oust 403 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: Ben Gomes, a man who dedicated a good portion of 404 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: his life to making the world's information more accessible, in 405 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: the process burning the Library of Alexandria to the goddamn 406 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: ground so that Sundaar Pshai could make more than two 407 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars a year, and Ragavan, a manager high 408 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: by Sundar Peshai, a former McKinsey man. The King of 409 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: Managers is an example of everything wrong with the tech industry. 410 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: Despite his history as a true computer scientist with actual 411 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: academic credentials, Ragavan chose to bulldoze actual workers, people who 412 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: did things, and people that care about technology and replace 413 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: them with horrifying toadies that would make Google more profitable 414 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: and less useful. Since Prabaka took the reigns of Google 415 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, Google search has dramatically declined with these 416 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: foor search updates I mentioned, allegedly made to improve the 417 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: quality of results, having the adverse effect increasing the prevalence 418 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 1: of spammy shitty search optimized content. It's frustrating. The anger 419 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 1: you hear in my voice. The emotion is because I've 420 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: read all of these antitrust emails. I have gone through 421 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: this guy's history, and I've read all the things about 422 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: Ben Gomes too. Every article about Ben Gomes where they interviewed, 423 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: is this guy just having these dreamy thoughts about the 424 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: future of information and the complexity of delivering it at 425 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: high speed. Every interview with Ragavan is some vague bullshit 426 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: about how important data is. It's so goddamn offensive to me, 427 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: and all of this stuff happening is just one example 428 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: of what I think are probably hundreds of things happening 429 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: across startups or that have happened across startups in the 430 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: last ten or fifteen years, and big Tech two. And 431 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: it's because the people running the tech industry are no 432 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: longer those who built him. Larry Page and Sergey Brin 433 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: left Google in December twenty nineteen. The same year is 434 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: the code yellow thing, and while they remained as controlling shareholders, 435 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 1: they clearly don't give a shit about what Google means anymore. 436 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 1: Propakar Ragavan is a manager and his career, from what 437 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: I can tell, is mostly made up of did some 438 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: stuff at IBM, failed to make Yahoo anything of no, 439 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: and fucked up Google so badly that every news outlet 440 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: has run a story about how bad it is. This 441 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 1: this is the result of taking technology out of the 442 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: hands of real builders and handing it to managers at 443 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: a time when management is synonymous with staying as far 444 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: away from actual work as possible. When you're a do 445 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: nothing looking to profit as much as possible, who doesn't 446 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: use tech, who doesn't care about tech, and you only 447 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: care about growth, well, you're not a user. You're a parasite. 448 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: And it's these parasites that have dominated and are now 449 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: draining the tech industry of its value. They're driving it 450 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: into a goddamn ditch. Ragavan's story is unique in so 451 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: far as the damage he's managed to inflict, or if 452 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: we're being exceptionally charitable, failed to avoid, in the of 453 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: Yahoo on two industry defining companies, and the fact that 454 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: he did it without being a CEO or founder is remarkable. Yeah, 455 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: he's far from the only example of a manager falling upwards. 456 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to editorialize a bit here. I need to 457 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: think about your job history. I want you to think 458 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: about the managers you've had. I've written a lot about management, 459 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: and specifically to do with remote work and the whole 460 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: thing around guys who don't do work, who are barely 461 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: in the office telling you you need to be in 462 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: the office. This problem is everywhere. Managers are everywhere, and 463 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: managers aren't doing work. I'm sure someone will email me 464 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: now and say, well, I'm a manager and off I'll 465 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 1: do work all the time. Yeah, make sure you do. 466 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 1: That's why you're emailing me telling me how good you 467 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: are at your job. People who actually do work don't 468 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: feel defensive about it. People who do things then are 469 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: part of the actual profit center. They don't need a 470 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: podcast to tell them they're good at their job. What 471 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: I think the problem is in modern American corporate society 472 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: is that management is no longer synonymous with actually managing people. 473 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: It's not about getting the people what they need. It's 474 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: not about organizing things and making things efficient and good. 475 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 1: It's not about execution. It's about handing work off to 476 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: other people and getting paid handsomely. And if you disagree 477 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: easy at better offline dot Com, I will read your email, 478 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: maybe I'll even respond. But the thing is management has 479 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: become a poison in America. Managers have become poisonous because 480 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: managers are not actually held to any kind of standard. No, 481 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: only the workers who do the work are. What happened 482 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: to Ben Gomes is one of the most disgusting, disgraceful 483 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: things to happen in the tech industry. It's an absolute joke. 484 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: Ben Gomes was a goddamn hero. And I really need 485 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 1: you to read the newsletter and read these emails. I 486 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 1: need you to see how many times him and Thaka 487 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: great Well were saying, hey, growth is bad for search. 488 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: The thing that Ben Gomes was being asked to do 489 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: was increase queries on Google, the literal amount that people's search. 490 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: There are many ways of looking at that and thinking, 491 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: oh shit, that's not what you want. Surely you don't 492 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: want no queries. You don't want people not using it 493 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: at all, but queries going upwards. Lennearly suggests that if 494 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: you're not magic good to use the growth, at least 495 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: the people are not getting what they want on the 496 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: first try, which, by the way, kind of feels like 497 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: how Google is nowadays when you go to Google and 498 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: the first result and the second result, and the fifth 499 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: result and the tenth result just don't get what you 500 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: need because it's all that SEO crap. Now, this is 501 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: all theorizing. But what I think prabagar Ragavan did was 502 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: I think he took off all the fucking guidelines on 503 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: Google Search. I think he rolled back changes specifically to 504 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: make search worse, to increase queries, to give Google more 505 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: chance to show you adverts. I am guessing don't have 506 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: a source telling me this, but the pattern around the 507 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 1: core search updates. The fact that Google Search started getting 508 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: worse toward the middle and end of twenty nineteen and 509 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: unquestionably dipped in twenty twenty. Well that's when Prabaka took over. 510 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: That's when the big Man took the reins. That's when 511 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 1: Drac Killer got his job at the blood bank. And 512 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: this is the thing. There's very little that you and 513 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: I can actually do about this. But what we can 514 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: do is say names like probagar Ragavan a great deal 515 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,240 Speaker 1: of times so that people like this can be known, 516 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: so that the actions of these scurrilous assholes can be 517 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: seen and heard and pointed at and spat upon. I'm 518 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: not suggesting spitting on anyone, No violent acts. No can 519 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: be pissy on the internet like the rest of us. 520 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: Now I'm ranting. I realize i'm ranting, but this subject 521 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: really really got to me. But it's not the only one. 522 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: In the next episode, I'm going to conclude this sordid 523 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: three part fiasco with a few more examples, and how 524 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: many of these managers, these bean counters, devoid of imagination 525 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: or ability or anything of note save for that utter 526 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: slug likability. To protect oneself, I want to talk about 527 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: how these people manage to obfiscate their true intentions by 528 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: pretending to be engineers, by pretending to be technologists and 529 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: pretending to be innovators. I want to tell you all 530 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: about how Adam Masseri destroyed Instagram, and I want to 531 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: tell you how little Sam Altman has achieved other than 532 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: making him and his friends rich. See you next time. 533 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The editor and 534 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: composer of the Better Offline theme song is matter. You 535 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: can check out more of his music and audio projects 536 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: at Matasoalski dot com M A T t O s 537 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: O w s Ki dot com. You can email me 538 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: at easy at Better offline dot com, or check out 539 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: Better Offline dot com to find my newsletter and more 540 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: links to this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. 541 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For 542 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia 543 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 544 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.