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Speaker 1: Y'all, welcome to Crime Round Up. The case in Delphi

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Speaker 1: is in the jury's hands. Nancy. We have both been

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Speaker 1: there in person. We have spent time with the family

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Speaker 1: at the courthouse, out at dinner. We have gone to

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Speaker 1: so many of the pertinent locations. We've been to the bridge,

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Speaker 1: we've been to the crime scene, we've been to the cemetery,

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Speaker 1: we've been to his home. After all these years, it's

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Speaker 1: now in the jury's hands.

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Speaker 2: And Cheryl, it seems surreal. It doesn't really seem real.

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Speaker 2: In one way, it feels like day one when you

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Speaker 2: joined me years ago, when we learned that Abby and Libby,

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Speaker 2: remember we're just missing. That's when we started covering the

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Speaker 2: case when they were missing. And then very quickly after

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Speaker 2: that we learned that they had been killed. And oh

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Speaker 2: how we railed against the lack of information the police

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Speaker 2: were releasing. Thank goodness, thank goodness that they did keep

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Speaker 2: that close to the vest, because that is one of

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Speaker 2: the state's main contentions that Richard Allen knew details that

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Speaker 2: had never been released to the press. Now, our interest

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Speaker 2: was not a prurient or sensational interest. Our interest was

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Speaker 2: if more information was released, maybe it would jaw the

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Speaker 2: memory of someone that saw or heard something and we

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Speaker 2: could find the killer. All right, that's where we were

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Speaker 2: coming from.

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Speaker 3: But thank goodness, they didn't listen to USh. But you know,

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Speaker 3: it is it's very surreal to me, and I wonder

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Speaker 3: if in their quiet moments, the family feels the same way.

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Speaker 3: It was just too raw the other day for me.

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Speaker 2: To ask them anything like, hey, is this surreal to you?

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Speaker 2: They were just oh, like they have been so many

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Speaker 2: times when I've met with them, when it would be

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Speaker 2: at crime conn or elsewhere. I just hate to ask

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Speaker 2: them that kind of question. That seems so unimportant given

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Speaker 2: what they're going through at that moment, you know, but

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Speaker 2: it does. It seems like yesterday we were reporting that

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Speaker 2: they were missing, and then that their bodies have been found,

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Speaker 2: but we didn't know anything else. Then there would be

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Speaker 2: lenks in dribbles, but we didn't really know if those

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Speaker 2: leaks or dribbles were real. And now it's finally to

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Speaker 2: a jury. It's very hard to take in. But I

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Speaker 2: do want to just thank you up front for something, Cheryl.

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Speaker 2: I want to thank you for defending me against all

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Speaker 2: the hate out there. I don't ever understand where it

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Speaker 2: comes from. But I tried not to dwell on it

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Speaker 2: because it just takes away time and energy.

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Speaker 1: Are you kid me? Listen? I told you years ago

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Speaker 1: somebody came after you and I responded, and you called me,

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Speaker 1: and you take that down. You don't need to defend me.

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Speaker 2: It is all good.

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Speaker 1: I don't care what you know. Crazy people think, but

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Speaker 1: you know it's a knee jerk reaction. I know you.

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Speaker 1: I know where your heart is at all times. I

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Speaker 1: know the blood, sweat and tears literally that you have

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Speaker 1: put into your career, and when people come at you,

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Speaker 1: especially incorrectly, I believe that there needs to be a response.

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Speaker 1: But tell you and my sister Shavern have given me

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Speaker 1: the same advice when I started Zone seventh. The only

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Speaker 1: thing she said, my oldest sister, don't use profanity, And

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Speaker 1: the only thing you've ever told me is don't respond.

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Speaker 1: That it doesn't warrant a response.

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Speaker 2: I have to tell you, though, the first attack came

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Speaker 2: from people that what I said. I came out the

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Speaker 2: court room and said, I'm just sick about people attacking

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Speaker 2: the victims and actually blaming them for the girl's murders.

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Speaker 2: And then there's a huge onslaught for days and days

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Speaker 2: and days.

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Speaker 1: That's not true.

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Speaker 2: You're talking about the YouTubers in the court room. They

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Speaker 2: didn't do that. Blah blah blah. Well, hey, that's not

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Speaker 2: what I said, and b it is true. And I

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Speaker 2: held off for days because I didn't want to give

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Speaker 2: any oxygen to the fire, and finally responded, plade a

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Speaker 2: tiny bit of it. For people, it's just a sharden

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Speaker 2: me Cheryl that at this time, at the worst time

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Speaker 2: of their lives, next to the day they found out

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Speaker 2: the girls were dead, they're having to relive it in court.

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Speaker 2: They're on pins and needles, and they have some ahole

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Speaker 2: out there claiming they're the ones that committed the murders,

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Speaker 2: that were complicit. But yes, it's out there and it's

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Speaker 2: hateful and it's horrible, but that's I don't know what

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Speaker 2: is wrong with everybody. But again, we now devoted like

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Speaker 2: three minutes too it. Let's just quit. I want to

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Speaker 2: tell you, I'm joining you from remote. I'm in the

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Speaker 2: field right now and in my mother's room. It's like

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Speaker 2: a whole other world we lived and with us. He

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Speaker 2: wanted to bring all of her stuff. I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 2: that baby grant is not fitting in your bedroom with

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Speaker 2: your king sized bed that you excuse me, queen, you

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Speaker 2: brought from home and like, I don't know what all's

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Speaker 2: in here, like half of the den furniture from her

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Speaker 2: home and makes in here. Guess what it does fit?

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Speaker 2: So I'm sitting right now between her bed, her love seat,

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Speaker 2: and her baby grand piano in her bedroom. Okay, and

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Speaker 2: guess what's I guess what's playing on her TV? Her

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Speaker 2: giant TV? My husband Gonner? Did he? Did he? Our show?

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Speaker 2: We I last? Did I think it's Diddy birthday? Cell abrasion, cell?

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Speaker 2: I can't even take credit for that, but yes, So

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Speaker 2: we're about to change it to Dell by the Latest

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Speaker 2: in Delphi. But the latest is we're in a verdict.

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Speaker 2: Watch we are.

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Speaker 1: But I got to tell about your mama.

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Speaker 2: Second.

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Speaker 1: I gotta talk much mom. One second, One of my favorite,

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Speaker 1: my favorite times ever is when she would come to

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Speaker 1: court and watch you, because one so gracious, just regal, lovely,

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Speaker 1: but she was so proud of you, and honey, on

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Speaker 1: those days, you would flat show off. Remember the Mason

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Speaker 1: jar summary.

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Speaker 2: Which one now that that was used quite often.

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Speaker 1: The one that I remember you had sand and dirt

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Speaker 1: and leaves and other things in this jar and you

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Speaker 1: shook it up. I mean you shook it like you

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Speaker 1: were making a martini and sat it right there in

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Speaker 1: front of the jury and started talking and it was

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Speaker 1: being and you told them, do not you know, be

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Speaker 1: fooled by this that the defense said or this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Fence was muffing the water. And then I would give

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Speaker 2: my long, long I at times closing statement, I would

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Speaker 2: love the most to just stand directly behind the defendant,

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Speaker 2: like six inches behind him as he was sitting at

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Speaker 2: council table and talk about him at point down to him,

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Speaker 2: and they never kneel, like should I turn around and

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Speaker 2: look at her? Should I just look at not there?

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Speaker 2: And by the time the closing argument was over, said

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Speaker 2: at the end, the dirt would have gone back to

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Speaker 2: the bottom of the giant jar and the water would

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Speaker 2: be clear. And then I would have the grandfell Knowllie

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Speaker 2: of Saint ce It's all cleared.

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Speaker 1: Up, now, all cleared up. It was brilliant, brilliant.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that. I can't believe you even remember that.

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Speaker 1: I think that Mason Jar is important for us to

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Speaker 1: talk about today because that's something that jury has got

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Speaker 1: to do. They've got a weed through. Hey wait, the

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Speaker 1: defense put up a gun expert. Yeah, a gun expert

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Speaker 1: that never looked at the gun or the unspent cartridge.

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Speaker 2: And I'll tell you why.

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Speaker 1: Because he couldn't get on the stand and lie. He

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Speaker 1: didn't want to touch it, he didn't want to review it.

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Speaker 1: He didn't want to put it under a microscope because

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Speaker 1: then he couldn't testify for him. So I'm just telling you,

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Speaker 1: I bet they went through a few and then they decided, hey,

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Speaker 1: we better let somebody talk.

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Speaker 2: Then they looked at it. Well, Cheryl, A lot of

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Speaker 2: people may think that that is far af fetched that

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Speaker 2: he intentionally did not look at it, because then he

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Speaker 2: would be bound by what he observed. And again, you

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Speaker 2: cannot look. Yesterday, Scott Morgan, god bless his soul, held

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Speaker 2: up a bullet on camera, and that is exactly the

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Speaker 2: manner in which this expert had to look at the bullet.

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Speaker 2: He had to look at a picture. And looking at

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Speaker 2: an image, you can't see microscopic that are smaller than

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Speaker 2: a human hair. Microscopic striations they are called. And just

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Speaker 2: to put it simply, you take the known bullet, which

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Speaker 2: is the one found between the girls, and then you

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Speaker 2: take your test bullet, you go buy a brand knee

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Speaker 2: shiny bullet. Every gun is marked with markings peculiar to

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Speaker 2: that gun alone. Why because that gun in the creation process,

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Speaker 2: the manufactured process, had molten lead, and it dried a

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Speaker 2: certain way on the inside of that barrel which was

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Speaker 2: never smoothed down and shining like the outside. So you've

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Speaker 2: got little ridges and bumps in the barrel, and when

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Speaker 2: that bullet goes down, it it scratches the bullet. It

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Speaker 2: is really simple. And so that bullet has markings no

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Speaker 2: other bullet will have that comes from a different gun.

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Speaker 2: It's really simple. It's a blistic fingerprint. Now it sounds

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Speaker 2: far fetched that the expert would not look at it

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Speaker 2: under a microscope because he did not want to give

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Speaker 2: an answer of what he saw. Eryl. How many times

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Speaker 2: in court have I sat there and just looked at

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Speaker 2: a witness when it's my time for cross? I think,

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Speaker 2: do I need to ask him this question? Because it

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Speaker 2: would be on cross so I would not have had

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Speaker 2: a chance to question the witness before they had taken

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Speaker 2: the stand. They weren't my witness, And I just sit

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Speaker 2: there and think, do I want to roll the dice?

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Speaker 2: Do I feel lucky because if I asked this question,

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Speaker 2: he could lie, he could say anything, whether it's true

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Speaker 2: or not, and I don't know what's going to and

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Speaker 2: I would always try my best to hold back and

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Speaker 2: err on the side of caution.

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Speaker 1: A stunt is a stunt, and if you know what

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Speaker 1: you're looking at, you can say, oh, well, that's not

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Speaker 1: the first time the defense did this. I won't even

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Speaker 1: go to the leaked photos. That has got nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with what I'm talking about. But like the hair

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Speaker 1: in Abby's hand, when they started talking about that, the

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Speaker 1: timing of it was a stunt, they already knew the answer. Nancy.

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Speaker 2: I thought about that, Cheryl, because we already he knew

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Speaker 2: it was Kelsey the sister's hair. But they were acting like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's a mystery hair, could it be the killer? But

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Speaker 2: we already and they already had the scientific explanation that

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Speaker 2: it was Kelsey's, so that's just a stunt.

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Speaker 1: Stunt, and then serving a subpoena to the witness on

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Speaker 1: the stand, that was a stunt. He's on the stand,

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Speaker 1: go ahead and peaching if you've got evidence that was

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Speaker 1: the stunt. For the jury to go, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: they had to serve him because he's he's trying to

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Speaker 1: not be served with a subpoena. The man is sitting

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Speaker 1: right there, and.

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Speaker 2: A subpoena is to make you come to court. He

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Speaker 2: is not only in court, he is on the stand under.

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Speaker 1: Oath, under oath. And my other favorite stunt was the

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Speaker 1: FBI agent. Oh, he can't come because he cape fly,

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Speaker 1: he can't drive. Okay, this is your witness, And the

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Speaker 1: first line of the subpoena says, putting all other business aside.

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Speaker 1: He's a federal agent. He would be there if you

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Speaker 1: subpoenaed him. That was a stunt. So now everybody's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: the judge is so horrible, she's so ridiculous. She won't

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Speaker 1: even let them allow him to testify remotely. If the

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Speaker 1: prosecution had tried to get somebody to testify remotely, they

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Speaker 1: would have lost their mind.

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Speaker 2: Well, another issue, and our expert, and he is an expert,

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Speaker 2: Philip Debay, was on with you actually when we were

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Speaker 2: discussing Delphi. Now we talked about several things with Debate,

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Speaker 2: and that is the use of a spit guard. Well,

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Speaker 2: the reality is, according to reports, Alan had to wear

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Speaker 2: a spit guard and moved in a wheelchair because he

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Speaker 2: was biting and spitting when they tried to transport him

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Speaker 2: and he refused to go. He also told LA law

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Speaker 2: enforcement that he would kill them. All right. Why was

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Speaker 2: he in a wheelchair because at some point he hear

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Speaker 2: said he had a broken ankle and he would not

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Speaker 2: go to the not submit to seeing the doctor because

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Speaker 2: of them. The doctor would confirm he did not have

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Speaker 2: a broken anicle. But that's why he was in a wheelchair.

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Speaker 1: It is more than insane. And I just want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that everybody understands I worked for the fult

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Speaker 1: Kindys Sheer for eight years and I was in Rice

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Speaker 1: Treat jail, and I know most people see me as

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Speaker 1: hunting Caroline's mama. You can call me whatever you want

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Speaker 1: to call me. That's gonna roll off my back. That

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Speaker 1: don't bother me a bit. You might even be able

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Speaker 1: to take a shot at me. But if you spit

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Speaker 1: at me, there is nothing more disrespectful to me. That

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Speaker 1: being said, it is vital that law enforcement put a

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Speaker 1: spit mask on any inmate attempting to spit or bite

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Speaker 1: at folks because it is for their safety. You do

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Speaker 1: not want them to physically stop them from doing it.

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Speaker 2: Another issue, and it looks horrible for somebody to be

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Speaker 2: wearing a black mask. It looks like some horrible movie.

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Speaker 2: But that's what happened. Now, another thing about that Dubey said,

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Speaker 2: and he was half right, half wrong. He said the

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Speaker 2: Defense did not get funding from one of their experts. Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's true, but let me tell you what happened. The

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Speaker 2: Defense filed incorrect paperwork for the funding, and Judge Gall

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Speaker 2: denied it and told them to redo their paperwork and

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Speaker 2: correct It's that's what happened. That's what I mean. I mean,

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Speaker 2: so you know, do Bay is a master at his art,

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Speaker 2: and so what he said was half right and half wrong.

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Speaker 2: She did deny it because they didn't file the correct

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Speaker 2: paperwork and she told him to redo it. So, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's it's like smoking mirrors.

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Speaker 1: I'm going back to my original be little bit. The

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Speaker 1: Defense that was a stunt. They knew down well they

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Speaker 1: could not get this stuff tested. They knew it. They

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Speaker 1: weren't trying to get it tested. Those folks have been

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Speaker 1: on point with their paperwork, but that one, when they

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Speaker 1: need the money, they do incorrectly. Bogus didn't happen that

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Speaker 1: was on purpose.

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Speaker 2: You know, people keep asking me, what do I think

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Speaker 2: the rutic is going to be? I shared it with

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Speaker 2: very few people. Now I think they're going to come

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Speaker 2: back with guilty. But I also thought a jury's going

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Speaker 2: to come back with the OJ Simpson case guilty. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I thought that Robert Blake would be found guilty. I

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Speaker 2: thought Michael Jackson would be found guilty because to me,

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Speaker 2: all the evidence is very clear. But that said, I

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Speaker 2: just I don't see how the jury can get around it.

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Speaker 2: I almost thought they might come back last night. I

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Speaker 2: thought they might too.

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Speaker 1: But I have a question for you, as a prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: how would you have handled this? In the closing, the

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Speaker 1: defense is telling everybody this sixty confessions or lies. It's

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Speaker 1: a man in psychosis, he's having a break. Yet they

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Speaker 1: didn't touch the fact that he called and said, hey,

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Speaker 1: I was on the bridge at this day in time

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Speaker 1: wearing this saw the girls. They're not saying that was

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Speaker 1: a lie. The fact that he put himself there. You

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Speaker 1: can accept that they did nothing to say that that

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Speaker 1: wasn't true. They allow that to ride, But the confessions

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Speaker 1: they won't.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's very curious on what they chose to

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Speaker 2: attack and not. But if you look at it like

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Speaker 2: a chessboard, it starts to fit together. The defense ignores

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Speaker 2: statements incriminating him before he quote had a psychotic break

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Speaker 2: because they're so damning. So I guess their theory is

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Speaker 2: ignore all the confessions and ignore the bullet, and ignore

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Speaker 2: him placing himself on the bridge at the time of

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Speaker 2: the murders, wearing the same clothes as the bridge guy.

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Speaker 2: And ignore the fact that he knew details of the

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Speaker 2: murders that only the killer would know, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of them. Remember he said that he had the gun

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Speaker 2: and he thinks, oh, yeah, that must be where I

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Speaker 2: dropped the bullet. He said that. He said that before

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Speaker 2: it was common knowledge. He knew about the neighbor coming

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Speaker 2: home in a white van in the middle of his

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Speaker 2: rape attempt, how that scared him off. He knew about

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Speaker 2: the branch has been put over the girls. All of

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Speaker 2: that was kept secret.

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Speaker 1: The biggest thing for me is if you're standing on

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Speaker 1: that bridge, the river banks back towards the right, you

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Speaker 1: cannot see that there's a road or a driveway. You

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Speaker 1: can't see it from the bridge. If you go to

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Speaker 1: the cemetery, you cannot see it. He had to have

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Speaker 1: known the field of vision from the crime saying where

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Speaker 1: the bodies were left to know that he could have

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Speaker 1: seen that white van, Nancy, he had to have been

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Speaker 1: standing in that spot to know you could see a vehicle.

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Speaker 1: There's no way that was due to a psychotic break,

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Speaker 1: not a chance. Not only did he see the white van,

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Speaker 1: he knew the time. How in the world would Richard

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Speaker 1: Allen ever know what time that man came home from

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Speaker 1: work and he came home early that particular day.

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Speaker 2: Another point that's been made regarding well, I don't know

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Speaker 2: if this point has been made, but according to reports

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Speaker 2: back to the lack of funding from the judge, apparently

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Speaker 2: attorneys waited for a fundraiser to reach over forty grand

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Speaker 2: no refunds allowed, and then they refiled their incorrect paper

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Speaker 2: requesting from money from Goal and she approved it. They

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Speaker 2: had two experts on this team prepared to analyze the ballistics. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so they got the money from the fundraiser, right, They

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Speaker 2: got the money, and then they refile the request and

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Speaker 2: got the money from Judge Goal. Now, that's according to report.

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Speaker 2: So that's certainly something to think about, isn't it. It

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Speaker 2: is and you know.

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Speaker 1: The thing that fascinates me too, and this was kind

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Speaker 1: of I don't think, really hammered as hard as they

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Speaker 1: should have for the prosecution is where he parked that day. Again,

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Speaker 1: nobody's denying that he did it. He said he did

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Speaker 1: it his cars on video. They were like, yay, park there,

331
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Speaker 1: It's nowhere near either entrance. And when asked he couldn't

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Speaker 1: give law enforcement a reason why he did it. He

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Speaker 1: tried to explain everything else they had a question.

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Speaker 2: Cheryl, I haven't seen this myself, but I've been sent

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Speaker 2: reports that people are sharing the crime scene photos online.

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Speaker 1: When I was in Delphi, I had dinner with Kelsey,

337
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Speaker 1: you know. She was saying to me that they have

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Speaker 1: re released them on Facebook. And I'm just like number

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Speaker 1: one who would do that? I mean, what is wrong

340
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Speaker 1: with people? And then Becky Patty the next morning said

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Speaker 1: to Charlene and I, she said, think about my grandchildren

342
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Speaker 1: will be able to see these horrible photographs of their

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old aunt. I mean, it's not okay. First

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Speaker 1: of all, the child is nude. Second of all, these

345
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Speaker 1: are horrific of both victims. I just I can't imagine

346
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Speaker 1: the motivation other than just crazy and me. That's all

347
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Speaker 1: it is.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to look at them. I'm not going

349
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Speaker 2: to hit the link. I'm not going to name the

350
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Speaker 2: link because it could make more people go to it

351
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Speaker 2: just to see if it's real, to see if this

352
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Speaker 2: is really happening. I'm not in pusading bad intent toward anyone,

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Speaker 2: you know, Cheryl. When I wrote my first book, Objection.

354
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Speaker 2: Oh by the way, Cheryl, the new book is coming out,

355
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Speaker 2: What Happened Ye, what happened to Ellen? And it's about

356
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:20,679
Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg and ps every any of mine is going

357
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:27,240
Speaker 2: to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. BAM. Anyway,

358
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Speaker 2: I'll circle back to Ellen Greenberg. But I remember researching

359
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 2: Blood Money, and so when I went in Andy Conn's office,

360
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 2: he had gotten all of these exhibits like serial killers

361
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 2: selling their hair and their fingernail clippings and their to

362
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,679
Speaker 2: nail clippings, and these horrible drawings like Jody Areas that

363
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,880
Speaker 2: they do behind bars and then sell them to pervs

364
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,680
Speaker 2: that want anything to do with a killer. That's when

365
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 2: I first found out about murderabilia. Okay, wait for it.

366
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 2: So I write the chapter Blood Money. Do you know

367
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:09,479
Speaker 2: I kept researching and investigating all of these examples of

368
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 2: people selling bizarre, scary, ghoulish things like autopsy reports, like

369
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Speaker 2: crime scene photos of Nicole Brown with her head practically

370
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Speaker 2: chopped off. Just he goes on and on and on

371
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Speaker 2: and it when I finished, when I finished the book,

372
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Speaker 2: you're not going to believe this, you know. I would

373
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Speaker 2: not just throw two hundred dollars out of the window.

374
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Speaker 2: But I had this little bitty dell. It couldn't have

375
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 2: been over three hundred dollars. It was like the size

376
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 2: of a spiral notebook pad. I felt that it was

377
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 2: such a bad luck because I had researched such horrible

378
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 2: things like people's autopsy photos and crime scene photos. Do

379
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,880
Speaker 2: you know I destroyed it? I destroyed it. I felt

380
00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 2: like it was such bad luck. I didn't want to

381
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 2: put my fingers on it because I had, I mean,

382
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: and just think if somebody had got in the hold

383
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 2: of that and looked at all the things I had

384
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 2: been looking up, like what a freak yep, And there

385
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: are people knowing and reposting pictures of Abby and Libby.

386
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 2: I haven't reported on it because I haven't seen it myself,

387
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 2: so I didn't know it to be completely true. But

388
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Speaker 2: if you're telling me you know it to be true.

389
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 2: Who are these people, Cheryl?

390
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 1: I know it to be true from the family, And

391
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: again talk about revictimization. I mean, it is just baffling

392
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Speaker 1: to me. And again, Nancy, whether they're talking about you

393
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: or talking about the family or showing, you know, sharing

394
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: these photographs when you've got crazy, well, that's meanness. This

395
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: is what you get.

396
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 2: When it's about me alone. I usually don't fly by

397
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: it because it's just you know. I put way, We

398
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: run a candle all the time in the kitchen so

399
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: the house doesn't smell like cats, dogs and gua pigs.

400
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 2: I think it works. I don't know if people walk

401
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 2: in and go, oh, my stars, what is every night?

402
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 2: I put the top on the candle and cut off

403
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 2: the oxygen and it goes out. Same thing here lighting

404
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 2: back with sleazy people. It gives them oxygen, it starts

405
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: a feud, and then they feed off your response. So

406
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: as long as it's just about me, to hell with it.

407
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: I don't care. But when it comes to the girls

408
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 2: and the victims' families, that's a whole other thing.

409
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: You know, you and I rarely disagree. I think you

410
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: can gently put out that candle like you do, and

411
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: sometimes you can just knock it out because I think

412
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: sometimes the best way to deal with the bully is

413
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,360
Speaker 1: to give equal treatment. You want to come at somebody,

414
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: come at somebody, but if you get it in return,

415
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: sometimes that's how you stop that person. So I'm one

416
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Speaker 1: of those people you want to pick on this person,

417
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace ain't gonna fight alone, because I'll tell you

418
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: about you your mama. As you say the horse you

419
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: rode in on, I will bring the whole barn and

420
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Speaker 1: shut it down, you know, Sheerrol. I'm just thinking about

421
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: right now, everybody on pins and needles. It's one minute

422
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: till court starts. And I have been there so many times, not.

423
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: Only in my fiance's murder case, which frankly I barely remember.

424
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 2: It was just this horrible, horrible blur, but getting in court,

425
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 2: you know, an hour or two early, getting everything, all

426
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: your evidence, all your exhibits together in case the jury

427
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 2: has a question, knowing you've done all you could do

428
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: and now you have to wait. It was better when

429
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 2: I was still trying the case because I would think, Okay,

430
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 2: now what can I do? How can I cross exam?

431
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: How can I read but blah blah blah, A just

432
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: constant motion in my head. But once you give it

433
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: to the jury, there's nothing you can do except sit

434
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: there and wait. And I would sit in the courtroom

435
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: and watch them file in and just rethink everything and

436
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,360
Speaker 2: mullet over over and over and over. I couldn't eat,

437
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: I couldn't think, I couldn't sleep until that verdict came in.

438
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: And that's what's happening right now.

439
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about what we know for sure. There's

440
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,400
Speaker 1: no doubt he was there. There's no doubt he told

441
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: the police he was on the bridge. There's no doubt

442
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: he didn't see bridge guy. There is no doubt that

443
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: he parked far away. There's no doubt he stopped and

444
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 1: got a jacket. There's no doubt he had a forty caliber.

445
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 1: There's no doubt the unspent cartridge matches. There's no doubt

446
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: that the defense called Zow character witnesses. And there is

447
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: no doubt that he confessed over sixty times.

448
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: You know what was another interesting thing? The jury could

449
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 2: ask questions during the cross and the direct exams.

450
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: Well, is that not wicked?

451
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 2: Which is really unusual. Now I'm just wondering how many

452
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 2: jerr questions they're going to have during deliberations, and if

453
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: they're going to share that with the audience, with everybody

454
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 2: in the courtroom, are they going to read the questions?

455
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: I mean they have to put the questions on the record.

456
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is with both attorneys

457
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: and the defendant present, the questions that may come from

458
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: the jury have to be read out loud and the

459
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 2: court reporter has to take it down, and then those questions,

460
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 2: the actual physical piece of paper has to be entered

461
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 2: into evidence. Why if there is a conviction that will

462
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 2: be part of the appellate record, all evidence is named,

463
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: everything becomes part of the appellate record to prove it

464
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: that it really happened the way it is written in

465
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 2: the record by the court reporter. I'm just want are

466
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: they going to read those out loud? Because when you

467
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: don't know a horse, Cheryl, look at his track record.

468
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 2: They asked questions throughout and they were allowed to do that.

469
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 2: So I believe they're going to have questions during the

470
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 2: jury deliberations. Why do I care? Because I believe the

471
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: questions will indicate where the jury is headed one hundred percent,

472
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: no doubt. Like if they say, hey, canny, crazy person

473
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 2: still tell the truth in a confession. Well that tells

474
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: me that A. Sadly they might think he's crazy, But

475
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 2: b was his confession real?

476
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: Did he do it right? Remember the old preacher at

477
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: five points? She was crazy, but she told the truth.

478
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: She could quote that Bible straight, corint every time.

479
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: A lot of people can quote the Bible and then

480
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: they can't twist it around to make it say what

481
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: they wanted to say. But yes, I do, I definitely

482
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: do remember her. Now, let me ask you this, Cheryl.

483
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: If you had to put money on it, and you

484
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: know I'm not a betting person and I'm not going

485
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: to put money on it, when do you think they're

486
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: gonna come back guilty, not guilty, or hung. If they're

487
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: gonna hang, it's gonna take longer because the judge will

488
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: dynamite them. Dynamite is an put so called Allan charge,

489
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 2: which I believe went all the way to the US

490
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: Supreme Court State v. Allen, where the judge said, listen,

491
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: get back in there. You're not through even though you

492
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 2: claim you're hung. That's an Allen charge. It's called dynamite.

493
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: You put the dynamite under their rear end and make

494
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 2: them go back in and deliberate more. If there's gonna

495
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: be a hung jury, it's gonna take longer because they're

496
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: gonna try and try and try to get averted, and

497
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 2: then they're gonna get dynamited and they're gonna have to

498
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: doumblate some more, deliberate some more. So that will take

499
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: a while. If it goes that way. A guilty will

500
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: probably take the least time. A not guilty will probably

501
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: take longer second in length, because somebody on that jury

502
00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: thinks he's guilty, and that somebody ain't gonna give in easily.

503
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: I think we're going to have a verdict today and

504
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: it's going to be guilty. And I think one of

505
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: the pieces that is critical is the one person that

506
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: could have taken that stand and told us what he

507
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: did that night, how he was Valentine's who he has

508
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: been since she has known him as a child, did not,

509
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: And I think that's not going to play well. I

510
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: have known Walt since I was fourteen. You think I'm

511
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: not going to take the stand and tell y'all about him,

512
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: about how gentle he is, about his heart, about his

513
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: work ethic, about how he is as a son and

514
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: a brother and a father and a husband. She didn't

515
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: do that.

516
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting. The fact that the defendant did

517
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: not take the stand cannot be commented upon by the

518
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: state because that impinges on his Fifth Amendment right to

519
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: remain silent. But let me give you a truth bomb

520
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: on the law. In most jurisdictions, the state can comment

521
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: in closing statements about witnesses that did not take the

522
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: stand if if the defense has brought up that witness. Okay,

523
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: so she was brought up many times about him being

524
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: code dependent on her, about confessions to her, about her

525
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: telling him to shut up and calling the lawyers. He

526
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 2: was not called. The state could have hammered that in

527
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:33,719
Speaker 2: closing argument.

528
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: I think they should have. But I'm telling you this

529
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: jury they didn't miss that.

530
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: They have to notice.

531
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, not one character witness you're telling me,

532
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: Not one friend from school, not one neighbor, not one

533
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 1: co worker, not one person from church, not one friend.

534
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: You ain't got.

535
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: Nobody that's going to take that stand and say, let

536
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: me tell you this is a decent, generous, kind person.

537
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: Not one. They didn't miss that either.

538
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: Okay, how long have they been out let's see, they

539
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 2: went out yesterday around three thirty pm, where Sammy at

540
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: nine am Friday, they left pretty quickly, right, No, no, no, no.

541
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: The case went to the jury at one twenty five

542
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: pm and they retired. I guess that means quit around

543
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 2: three thirty pm, so they didn't have very long. I

544
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: think they probably just elected a four person. Maybe they

545
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: did a straw vode, maybe they got all the evidence together.

546
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: But I think today is their real day of deliberations.

547
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: You know what, if if I were a betting person,

548
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: I'd put bet it on Friday afternoon. Why because if

549
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: they can reach a verdict, why in the world do

550
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: they want to be away from their family and come

551
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: back and work over the weekend. Now that's just practicality speaking.

552
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: I mean, if they're strung out, they'll go into next week.

553
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: But I'm betting on Friday afternoon.

554
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you what they're doing. They did

555
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: a stroll vote. I believe that everybody's on the same page,

556
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: and I think they went back to that hotel early

557
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: to pack. Walt and I were just on the crime

558
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: cruise just for five days.

559
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: Oh, rub it in, rub it in. It probably took

560
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: us working like a slave and you're on a cruise.

561
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I could not believe when I said, look,

562
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: you got to join us. You go. I'm sorry, I'm

563
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: on the high seage with Walt on a cris like

564
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: what there's a trial going on.

565
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:28,719
Speaker 1: I was working.

566
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: Trust me, right now, what we are you about to

567
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: tell me? You're about to tell me another one of

568
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: your speculations.

569
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: Oh, here's what it is, Yes, mother's speculation. It probably

570
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: took us an hour to truly pack that room, to

571
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: make sure we didn't leave chargers or anything. I think

572
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: they quitterly got dinner and packed because when they render

573
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: their verdict, they're out of there to go home.

574
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: I think it may not be half wrong, but we'll see.

575
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: I'm not going to call it. I'm not going to

576
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 2: call it yet.

577
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: Well that sounds like that, right, I'll take that. I'll

578
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: talk to you later because I think we're gonna have

579
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: a verdict.

580
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: I think we are too God willing, and which one

581
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 2: of us talks to the family first, Pass on our

582
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: love and our prayers. Amen. Bye bye,