Speaker 1: I absolutely know that issues exist, and they are cultural
Speaker 1: and they are baked into society, but that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: we don't have an obligation to try. That's what I'm doing,
Speaker 1: That's what we all have to do, and we have
Speaker 1: to do it together.
Speaker 2: From Fudro Media and BrX, It's Latino USA. I'm Marieno
Speaker 2: Rosa today a conversation with Robert Santos, the first Latino
Speaker 2: to lead the US Census Bureau. Dear listener, you might
Speaker 2: remember that in twenty nineteen, the Supreme Court blocked the
Speaker 2: Trump administration's push to include a question about citizenship status
Speaker 2: in the twenty twenty census. Well, in early May of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, House Republicans passed a bill that is
Speaker 2: reminiscent of those very same efforts. The Quote Equal Representation
Speaker 2: Act is a measure that seeks to include a citizenship
Speaker 2: question on the next census, scheduled for twenty thirty, and
Speaker 2: to exclude people who are not citizens from the census count.
Speaker 2: That bill now sits with the majority Democrat Senate, and so,
Speaker 2: dear listener, we felt that it was important to share
Speaker 2: with you again a conversation that we had with Robert Santos,
Speaker 2: who is the director of the US Census Bureau. Santos
Speaker 2: told us why being counted in the Census is important
Speaker 2: and what exactly he was doing to rebuild trust among communities.
Speaker 2: Here's my conversation with Robert Santos from twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: President Joe Biden announced last April that his intended nominee
Speaker 2: to lead the US Census would be Robert Santos. Then
Speaker 2: just a few weeks later, Santos went before the Senate
Speaker 2: Homeland Security Committee for his confirmation hearing.
Speaker 1: It's an honor and I'm humbled to appear before you
Speaker 1: today as the nominee for the director of the Census Bureau.
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank the President and Secretary Rimando for
Speaker 1: the trust they have placed me with this nomination.
Speaker 2: Santos is super proud about being born and raised in
Speaker 2: the barrios of San Antonio, Texas. He has served as
Speaker 2: President of the American Statistical Association, vice President and chief
Speaker 2: methodologist at the Urban Institute, along with other big roles
Speaker 2: throughout his career. Santos has more than forty years of
Speaker 2: experience in survey research, and he specializes in quantitative and
Speaker 2: qualitative research design.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be here today without the endurance support of
Speaker 1: my family. At age eighteen, I married my wife, Adela,
Speaker 1: and we've now been married forty eight years. She's my
Speaker 1: most important source of support, counsel, and love. Are two children,
Speaker 1: Emilio and Cladissa, always support me and are constant sources
Speaker 1: of comfort and pride.
Speaker 2: During his confirmation hearing, Santos was asked about redistricting along
Speaker 2: with potential big challenges for the upcoming twenty thirty Census.
Speaker 2: Santos was confirmed in November of twenty twenty one. A
Speaker 2: few months later and January of this year, he was
Speaker 2: sworn in as the twenty sixth Director of the US Census,
Speaker 2: and he is the first Latino to hold that position.
Speaker 1: Hi Robert Santos I, Robert Sambo will support in defan
Speaker 1: will support in the fan.
Speaker 2: Santos is no stranger to the US Census. Before his
Speaker 2: nomination and confirmation, he warned in October of twenty twenty
Speaker 2: that former President Trump's interference with the census count could
Speaker 2: result in one of the most flawed census counts in history.
Speaker 2: Census counts are important because they helped determine the number
Speaker 2: of seats each state has in the US House of Representatives.
Speaker 2: It's also used to help allocate and distribute billions of
Speaker 2: federal dollars across local communities throughout the entire country. Trump
Speaker 2: wanted a question on the past census that asked for
Speaker 2: people's US citizenship status. Well, you need it for many reasons.
Speaker 1: Number one, you needed new words with Congress, you needed
Speaker 1: for Congress spati picking.
Speaker 2: You needed for appropriations. Citizenship has been on that thing
Speaker 2: most of the time for many many years. A citizenship
Speaker 2: question had not been on the census for several decades,
Speaker 2: and of course citizenship status is not used for redistricting.
Speaker 2: And after several lawsuits, the Supreme Court ultimately blocked the
Speaker 2: citizenship question from being on the twenty twenty census, but
Speaker 2: the damage had already been done and there was an
Speaker 2: even further gap in trust with communities across the United States.
Speaker 2: The weaponization of the US Census isn't something new. We've
Speaker 2: seen it with the founding of this country, when enslaved
Speaker 2: Africans were counted as three fifths of a person, and
Speaker 2: later when Japanese Americans were in prison and tracked down
Speaker 2: by using the census. So on today's episode, I have
Speaker 2: a conversation with director Robert Santos about his new role,
Speaker 2: his love for his hometown of San Antonio, and the
Speaker 2: complicated history of the US Census. Director Robert Santos, Hello,
Speaker 2: and thank you so much for being with me here
Speaker 2: today on Latino USA.
Speaker 1: I was ready to climb a ladder and do the
Speaker 1: interview upside down if I could have the opportunity to
Speaker 1: be a part of this experience with you, because I've
Speaker 1: always valued everything that you've done on your program.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, well, thank you. I don't I am
Speaker 2: actually I'm having a moment. Did the director of the
Speaker 2: US Census just say to me that he values the
Speaker 2: work that I've been doing and knows my work? I
Speaker 2: really am having a moment.
Speaker 1: Every week we listen to your program and the job
Speaker 1: you're doing to help the United States understand the value
Speaker 1: of our rich diversity of Latinos, I think is amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Director Santos for being for being a supporter
Speaker 2: of our work and knowing our work. It really means
Speaker 2: a lot. And I think I'm going to start there
Speaker 2: because if I think about my experience as a Latina
Speaker 2: in the media over the last thirty years, I think
Speaker 2: that people always saw me kind of like, you know, like, oh,
Speaker 2: here she goes again bringing up Latinos and Latinas, and
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, I'm not a big mathematician or
Speaker 2: a statistician like you, but I can read a demographic
Speaker 2: chart and I could see that the Latino population was
Speaker 2: just increasing. And so for a lot of my career,
Speaker 2: people have kind of been like, oh God, here she
Speaker 2: comes talking about Latinos again. I always found it very
Speaker 2: interesting that people felt like it was a bother or
Speaker 2: like a threat or a problem instead of just like, no,
Speaker 2: but we're just kind of looking at that, And I'm
Speaker 2: wondering if you're kind of having that same sensation in
Speaker 2: your life right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for offering that perspective, because actually I've
Speaker 1: been having that type of interaction my entire career. I've
Speaker 1: had episode after episode where I was the sole Latino
Speaker 1: in a room of research decision makers who maybe hadn't
Speaker 1: realized that when they come to the table and they
Speaker 1: frame research questions or they perceive problems that they want
Speaker 1: to help society solve, they do it with their cultural lens.
Speaker 1: I've had many instances where I basically say, excuse me
Speaker 1: if you do that, you actually will be doing harm
Speaker 1: and not good. Even though the statistical design and the
Speaker 1: research design was pristine. However, if you frame the question
Speaker 1: the wrong way, or you capture information in a way
Speaker 1: that doesn't really reveal what's going on, or interpret it
Speaker 1: by talking to people in the community to help get
Speaker 1: it better understanding, you can end up actually doing more
Speaker 1: harm than good.
Speaker 2: And the other thing I need to know, Director Santos,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I just need to know. I know you
Speaker 2: used to have a ponytail. Do you still it's growing? Holy.
Speaker 1: I was asked to be considered for the nomination and
Speaker 1: I decided to do it. I did it out of
Speaker 1: you know, Goda Son. I wanted to help my country,
Speaker 1: and I believed I could offer something as a Latino
Speaker 1: from my rich perspective, cultural perspective, and research perspective. But
Speaker 1: the one thing that I decided is that I have
Speaker 1: to be myself, and myself is Santhos with the ponytail.
Speaker 1: And so I'm going to be myself and try to
Speaker 1: do the best I can to help the Census Bureau
Speaker 1: to help the American people. And if it works, great,
Speaker 1: and if it doesn't, I tried.
Speaker 2: I think it's really cool. I just want to say,
Speaker 2: because one you're rocking it, it works, and two I
Speaker 2: just think you're saying something about just having to be yourself. Right.
Speaker 2: So recently I was in San Antonio. That's the city
Speaker 2: of where you were born and raised. I was at
Speaker 2: Trinity University giving a lecture, and you know, I love
Speaker 2: San Antonio. It's one of my favorite cities because what
Speaker 2: I've been going to it ever since a little girl,
Speaker 2: because I was always driving through Texas to get from
Speaker 2: Chicago to Mexico. It's a majority Latino city in the
Speaker 2: United States, in the state of Texas. So yeah, not
Speaker 2: as a kid from San Antonio, but as somebody who
Speaker 2: understands the power of the work of the census, demography
Speaker 2: and the picture of the future of the United States.
Speaker 2: I mean, is San Antonio in fact the future of
Speaker 2: what the United States looks like? And what does that
Speaker 2: mean to you?
Speaker 1: Well, there are many really interesting things about San Antonio.
Speaker 1: The fact that it has always had a very prominent
Speaker 1: place for Mexican Americans in particular, but Latinos more generally
Speaker 1: as being part of the city. Yet when I was
Speaker 1: growing up, it was pretty effectively segregated and even in
Speaker 1: some of the Latino communities. You know, I lived on
Speaker 1: the side of the Woodland Lake that you know, wasn't
Speaker 1: considered the best part, and so if I went into
Speaker 1: the other side where there were folks were better off,
Speaker 1: I might be looked upon a little differently. But it's
Speaker 1: interesting that we've embraced the culture of the Mexican American
Speaker 1: community in San Antonio.
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess the reason why one of the
Speaker 2: reasons why I keep on asking about San Antonio as
Speaker 2: a city of the future and and what it looks like.
Speaker 2: And you're right. I mean, you get out of the
Speaker 2: airport in San Antonio because I was just there and
Speaker 2: there were these like huge artist representations of Lata's, the
Speaker 2: Chipotle Chiles, Chipotle Salsa ervees, and I was like, only
Speaker 2: in San Antonio, will you see this? Like at the
Speaker 2: airport it's and and and all of this is like
Speaker 2: we're talking about San Antonio, and you know, as it
Speaker 2: relates to a kind of city of the future with
Speaker 2: a kind of sense of joy and hope and laughter.
Speaker 2: But you know this, Director Santos, that actually the way
Speaker 2: the narrative goes right now in the United States today
Speaker 2: is that Latinos and Latinas post some kind of a
Speaker 2: threat that we're majority not from the United States, that
Speaker 2: we're coming here, that we're new. So put those two
Speaker 2: things together for me, h.
Speaker 1: Well, it's not unusual for societies to have segments of
Speaker 1: the population that view individuals of different backgrounds to be threats,
Speaker 1: when in fact it's very much of an opportunity. We
Speaker 1: could not survive without immigrants coming in and helping our
Speaker 1: economy in ways that otherwise the citizen population would not
Speaker 1: be able to contribute. So I very much value the diversity,
Speaker 1: and I think that's one of our strongest points as
Speaker 1: a nation, and that's why I take so much pride
Speaker 1: in being able to advance the measurement and the counting
Speaker 1: and the learning about the rich diversity of our population
Speaker 1: and how it's getting more diverse. It's inevitable, as you said,
Speaker 1: it's coming, and we need to find better ways to
Speaker 1: leverage and embrace that because it's going to improve society.
Speaker 1: But I bring a different perspective. I think to research
Speaker 1: and the Census Bureau and sort of research more generally
Speaker 1: social science research, and I believe that you have to
Speaker 1: bring your whole self. So I believe in diversity, equity, inclusion,
Speaker 1: and I think in order to be a better scientist,
Speaker 1: a better mathematician, a better statistician, you need to bring
Speaker 1: your culture to the table when you talk about and
Speaker 1: think about research, about interpreting results, about how you analyze it,
Speaker 1: even how you frame what it is that you're going
Speaker 1: to look at, because that way you can actually learn
Speaker 1: more and gain more relevant insights into particular problems, whether
Speaker 1: it's hunger or housing, or the pandemic and vaccination statuses
Speaker 1: or whatever.
Speaker 2: Okay, so, Director Santos, I actually want to take you
Speaker 2: back to those days when you were growing up as
Speaker 2: a kid in San Antonio. You were on the west
Speaker 2: side of the city. You said it was a very
Speaker 2: segregated city, and so you growing up what was life
Speaker 2: like back then as a were you like, yeah, we're
Speaker 2: definitely the majority. We got this, We're going places. Or
Speaker 2: did you feel like, wow, this country's in the middle
Speaker 2: of a civil rights era. Latinos and Latinas were not
Speaker 2: necessarily visible.
Speaker 1: So what was it To be honest, I was a
Speaker 1: kid in the sixties, I was in elementary school and
Speaker 1: middle school, and I graduated in seventy two, and son't
Speaker 1: I wasn't able until I was maybe in grad school
Speaker 1: at Michigan to really connect the dots fully, to realize
Speaker 1: the value and importance of being a Latino. And that's
Speaker 1: where between my college and graduate school years where I
Speaker 1: really embraced and understood the magnitude of the societal issues.
Speaker 3: That we were dealing with.
Speaker 1: But back when I was a kid, I was basically surviving.
Speaker 1: I was fortunate enough to go to parochial school for
Speaker 1: twelve years that instilled some great values in me that
Speaker 1: I take with me and I use every day of
Speaker 1: my forty year career as well as.
Speaker 3: Now my continuing career.
Speaker 1: The Census Bureaum and those values of trying to help people,
Speaker 1: those values of being inclusive and treating people fairly and
Speaker 1: trying to help society, those are really important and they
Speaker 1: drive me and they've drive everything that I've done, you know,
Speaker 1: treating people with respect, regardless of race, color, creed, religion,
Speaker 1: or whatever.
Speaker 2: So your mom and dad worked at the air Force base, right.
Speaker 1: Yes, there were some very fortunate to have civil service
Speaker 1: positions at Kelly Air Force Base while it was open.
Speaker 2: So this notion of I see you as my equal,
Speaker 2: a child of the civil rights era. Where was that
Speaker 2: coming from? Was that your mom and dad bringing it home?
Speaker 2: And talk to me a little bit about having a
Speaker 2: mom and dad in the air force, because I mean,
Speaker 2: my dad was a scientist, medical doctor, researcher. But we
Speaker 2: didn't talk that stuff over dinner. But like your dad
Speaker 2: was asking you math questions, So take me a little
Speaker 2: bit back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. We had a really tightly knit family
Speaker 1: and everything circulated around familiar and because everything revolved around family,
Speaker 1: our focus was we didn't necessarily at the dinner table
Speaker 1: talk about the inequities of society as much as talked
Speaker 1: about familia and how we help each other and how
Speaker 1: we need to strive to get better education and get
Speaker 1: good jobs.
Speaker 3: I mean, that was what it was all about.
Speaker 1: And you know, how could anyone blame familias for talking
Speaker 1: about that in San Antonio who were Mexican American and
Speaker 1: whose grandparents had fled because of the revolution, the violence
Speaker 1: in northern Mexico that was going on to survive and
Speaker 1: they started in new life and with almost nothing, and
Speaker 1: my grandparents starting with jobs as gardeners or as cleaning people.
Speaker 3: We then grew and.
Speaker 1: Generation after generation improved and that pursuit of the American dream.
Speaker 1: That's really what was the focus of discussion. And me
Speaker 1: as a little kid with my brother who's no longer
Speaker 1: with us, our focus was on trying to have as
Speaker 1: good of a time as we could, especially with my
Speaker 1: parents both being off to work in us being latchkey kids,
Speaker 1: so we got into all kinds of mischief.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I need to know what mischief looks like
Speaker 2: in West San Antonio. Then give me a couple of examples.
Speaker 2: What were you guys doing.
Speaker 1: Well, it was mischief in the sense of, you know,
Speaker 1: we'd have you know, mudball fights in San Antonio where
Speaker 1: the back of the house was yeah, mudball. We just
Speaker 1: you know, throw water in the dirt, make mudballs and
Speaker 1: come at it and the back of the house would
Speaker 1: be covered with mudballs that stuck to the side of
Speaker 1: the house. Or we'd grab our bicycles and we were
Speaker 1: like what eight, nine, ten years old now, I'd say ten,
Speaker 1: eleven or twelve, and then head off from Woodlawn Lake
Speaker 1: area to pass downtown to Hemisphere where it was being built,
Speaker 1: so we could watch the tower going up wow, or
Speaker 1: go out to the airport and watch the jets come
Speaker 1: in and that's really long distances for kids in the
Speaker 1: middle of the summer with no water.
Speaker 3: We just stop at.
Speaker 1: Gas stations, but we would do crazy, crazy stuff like that.
Speaker 2: It's kind of incredible that kids get into all that
Speaker 2: mischief and survive, right, It's kind of amazing.
Speaker 1: What's really important, though, is if you combine that sense
Speaker 1: of adventure with the values that were instilled during the
Speaker 1: schooling that I had. It's those two things that have
Speaker 1: propelled me to take chances and risks where maybe other
Speaker 1: folks would not have done it. So pretty much in
Speaker 1: every job I've ever taken, it's been a step up,
Speaker 1: and I've said, oh my god, can I Am I
Speaker 1: really going to be able to do this? And then
Speaker 1: I'd end up saying, well, look, just like I told
Speaker 1: you earlier, I'm going to try my best. I'm going
Speaker 1: to be myself and if I can contribute, great, and
Speaker 1: if I can't, I'll be able to look myself in
Speaker 1: the mirror and say I tried my best.
Speaker 2: Coming up on let you know, USA Director Santos on
Speaker 2: rebuilding trust and facing the systemic problems at the Census,
Speaker 2: Stay with us, Yes, Hey, we're back. We're going to
Speaker 2: continue now with my conversation with Director of the US
Speaker 2: Census Bureau Robert Santos. The interesting thing, Director Santos, is
Speaker 2: that I have a lot of feelings about the Censes.
Speaker 2: With the Censes, it's actually something that has had an
Speaker 2: impact in my life in very interesting ways. And I
Speaker 2: kind of be honest with you, and I'm sure you're
Speaker 2: not going to be surprised when I'm like, it's kind
Speaker 2: of a love hate relationship with the Senses. I think
Speaker 2: I remember as a little girl that Hispanic was a
Speaker 2: term that was created for the Census by a Republican administration,
Speaker 2: and my family did not like the Republicans. So I
Speaker 2: was like, I'm not Hispanic, I'm not a term that
Speaker 2: was created. So the Census has this kind of again
Speaker 2: this impact. In fact, in twenty ten, when I form
Speaker 2: Futuro Media, my own company, one of the things that
Speaker 2: made me believe that I could do it was data
Speaker 2: from the Censes. Right. The data was that the Latino
Speaker 2: population growth from twenty to twenty ten had grown at
Speaker 2: forty three percent. So the Census is an organization that
Speaker 2: we I think you too have had a love hate
Speaker 2: relationship with am I right? How do you see how
Speaker 2: the Census has impacted your personal life. Were you that
Speaker 2: guy who was like thinking about the censes like decades.
Speaker 1: Ago, actually decades ago? I was because I actually did
Speaker 1: projects for the Census as a as a researcher. I
Speaker 1: served for six years on the advisory committee and said
Speaker 1: the same thing day one as I did six years
Speaker 1: later as I walked out the door in terms of advice.
Speaker 1: But I actually have not had a love hate relationship.
Speaker 1: I've had a love love relationship with the Census my
Speaker 1: entire career because I recognize.
Speaker 2: Love love like I mean, you've been critical of it, though.
Speaker 3: Right, because I love the Census Bureau.
Speaker 2: Are you, like really that person who's like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I've always loved this. Are you that person?
Speaker 1: I am in the sense that I want it and
Speaker 1: we need it to improve and to be the best
Speaker 1: that it is. It's been, It's done some exceptionally great
Speaker 1: stuff in the past. All statistics have strengths and limitations.
Speaker 1: The limitations for desennial Census historically have been ones where
Speaker 1: people of color are undercounted. That's an issue. I've been
Speaker 1: critical before the Census, and now that I'm director, we're
Speaker 1: looking at that and it's not like they don't look
Speaker 1: at it every you know, day of our lives. We
Speaker 1: have experts who are trying their best to think of
Speaker 1: new creative ways to help with participation, et cetera. But
Speaker 1: I recognize that the data that the census provides is
Speaker 1: a vital part of our democracy. We can't improve communities, neighborhoods,
Speaker 1: we can't identify problems unless we can measure properly the
Speaker 1: state of the nation who we are as a people.
Speaker 1: And it's in that context that I've always loved the
Speaker 1: Census Bureau because I admire them doing the best that
Speaker 1: can be done, even though it's not perfection.
Speaker 2: Because I mean, that's what I was going to say. So,
Speaker 2: so is it that you've been up at night not
Speaker 2: now just because you're the director of the Senses, but
Speaker 2: that in the past because the undercounting of in particular
Speaker 2: Latino Latina LATINX community and frankly, and I know this
Speaker 2: is not a surprise to you, there's deep distrust now
Speaker 2: with any government institution in the United States. I mean
Speaker 2: those things that have kept you up at night. This
Speaker 2: whole notion of like the deep, deep undercounting that comes
Speaker 2: from one I suppose deep disorganization, but also deep distrust.
Speaker 1: I'm not prepared to say it keeps me up at night,
Speaker 1: as much as it's a core issue that we need
Speaker 1: to address for the future, we need to recognize its existence.
Speaker 1: There are mistrust issues that have been historical as well
Speaker 1: as more recent, and I would never have taken this
Speaker 1: job unless I thought I could help in that regard.
Speaker 1: So one of the primary agenda items for me, or
Speaker 1: contributions that I want to make as Director of the
Speaker 1: Census Bureau is to put a human face on the
Speaker 1: Census Bureau. We're not a bunch of mathematicians in our
Speaker 1: little offices thinking big thoughts. We're actually human beings. We
Speaker 1: all have cultures, we all have issues, we all are
Speaker 1: human in nature. And I'm bringing that because I think
Speaker 1: I can. I'm going to outreach to communities, to neighborhoods,
Speaker 1: to stakeholders, to congress, to local governments, to tribal communities.
Speaker 1: I want to get out there and I want to
Speaker 1: find out what those issues are with my staff. So
Speaker 1: the Census spiritA will be a part of all of
Speaker 1: that and establish a continuous relationship with people and with
Speaker 1: communities rather than simply two years before a Census, saying Okay,
Speaker 1: it's time for us to have partnerships. We recognize that
Speaker 1: we need to have this continuously, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: be upfront and center trying to work with everyone to
Speaker 1: establish a true two way relationship, not just to help
Speaker 1: us get participation, but also here is information that's useful
Speaker 1: for your specific community. Here are some tools you can
Speaker 1: use to identify community needs, to solve problems, to create
Speaker 1: more economic development. That's the type of two way relationship
Speaker 1: that I really want to.
Speaker 2: Get, Director Santos. The last administration and all of the
Speaker 2: controversy leading up to the twenty twenty senses has I mean,
Speaker 2: it's so polarized, and it forced people more into a
Speaker 2: place of darkness, I suppose in regards to the senses.
Speaker 2: So I mean you're trying to kind of I don't
Speaker 2: want to say catch up, because you're actually trying to
Speaker 2: do something very futuristic. But you've got a lot of
Speaker 2: lead from the last administration and last decades. I mean
Speaker 2: that lead is how do you deal with that lead
Speaker 2: that is weighing you down, which is part historical and
Speaker 2: you know, systemic.
Speaker 1: I do not view this as an issue of oh
Speaker 1: my god, look what's happened in the past. I view
Speaker 1: it as where do we need to get into the
Speaker 1: future and how do we need to address these types
Speaker 1: of issues.
Speaker 3: So I'm I'm.
Speaker 1: Looking forward because one of the greatest attributes and strengths
Speaker 1: of the Census Bureau is that it is a non
Speaker 1: partisan federal statistical agency. So I'll say it again, it's
Speaker 1: a non partisan federal statistical agency, which is the only
Speaker 1: reason that I was willing to join. Because the notion
Speaker 1: of scientific integrity objectivity is something and transparency not many
Speaker 1: organizations want to reveal, like the good and the bad
Speaker 1: and the ugly about everything we do. We put that
Speaker 1: up front because that's part of our job that the
Speaker 1: American people deserve to hear and to see the strengths
Speaker 1: and limitations of all of our data products. And it's
Speaker 1: because of that scientific integrity and our non partisan nature
Speaker 1: that I think we have a really good starting point
Speaker 1: to take wherever we are right now and move forward
Speaker 1: and create really great ties to communities and great things.
Speaker 1: And That's what I'm going to be doing, and I
Speaker 1: know that that's what the rest of the Census Spirit
Speaker 1: is going to be doing as well.
Speaker 2: Your excitement about being at the Census is clear, like
Speaker 2: we can feel it. We absolutely can feel it. I
Speaker 2: can see it. So I want to zoom out for
Speaker 2: a bit because when I think about the senses, I
Speaker 2: think the other word that comes to mind is white
Speaker 2: supremacy and systemic racism, and how that is a part
Speaker 2: of the institution. We have to acknowledge how people in
Speaker 2: this country were first counted, right, Enslaved black people were
Speaker 2: basically counted only as three fifths of a human being,
Speaker 2: and areas with large enslaved populations benefited from this in
Speaker 2: terms of federal funding and political power and representation. So
Speaker 2: again your excitement to be at the census, But the
Speaker 2: question I'm going to ask you is, well, should the
Speaker 2: sense be dismantled? Should it be reassembled? How do we
Speaker 2: deal with the fact that, you know, close to four
Speaker 2: out of the five senior executives at the bureau identify
Speaker 2: as white according to an NPR study from last year.
Speaker 2: So you're dealing with your big dreams and a powerful institution,
Speaker 2: but one that has, in this case issues of white supremacy.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that you know, pundits and others can
Speaker 1: characterize the Census Bureau as they might. I do know
Speaker 1: that because of things like the pandemic, we are at
Speaker 1: a wonderful inflection point where we understand the value of diversity,
Speaker 1: equity and inclusion, and everyone I've spoken to wants to
Speaker 1: make progress in this regard, including myself. I think that
Speaker 1: it's it would be naive to think that any government
Speaker 1: or any society does not have issues with them with
Speaker 1: regard to historical you know, racism and things of that sort.
Speaker 1: But in terms of where we go from now, by
Speaker 1: leveraging this diversity, equity and inclusion principles, we are recognizing
Speaker 1: the value not only for creating a more diverse workforce
Speaker 1: within the Census Bureau, but also questioning every single thing
Speaker 1: we do with regard to what we measure, how we
Speaker 1: measure it, how relevant it is, and not only that
Speaker 1: when we produce it, how valuable it is, based on
Speaker 1: community engagement and getting folks reaction to results and things
Speaker 1: of that sort. So I'm very much you know, I
Speaker 1: am absolutely not a Pollyanna. I absolutely know that issues
Speaker 1: exist and they are cultural and they are baked into society.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean we cannot don't have an obligation
Speaker 1: to try. That's what I'm doing that's what we all
Speaker 1: have to do, and we have to do it together
Speaker 1: and we need each other's support.
Speaker 2: Director Santos, forgive me that I should know the answer
Speaker 2: to this question, but I don't. Has the Census apologized
Speaker 2: for the fact that the data from the census was
Speaker 2: used to enter, ie imprison American citizens of Japanese descent,
Speaker 2: and that they were targeted because of the use of
Speaker 2: the census data. Has there been a formal apology that
Speaker 2: I just didn't know about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for asking. That's a really really important question.
Speaker 1: Can crew it actually years back apologized formally to representatives
Speaker 1: of the Japanese community.
Speaker 2: So how do we because you know this as well
Speaker 2: in our community, especially after the last administration, the previous
Speaker 2: administration in particular Latinos and Latinas and building this trust
Speaker 2: and immigrants and refugees, undocumented people, how do you rebuild
Speaker 2: the trust? And I know, oh, I get the whole
Speaker 2: Like we are the Census, we are you, But I
Speaker 2: mean you also deal with hard facts. You also want
Speaker 2: to deal with the humanizing of it. How do you
Speaker 2: create trust in an institution that is so large and
Speaker 2: that has this past history And I know you want
Speaker 2: to look at the future. So in the future, how
Speaker 2: do you want to create.
Speaker 1: Sure and we are already taking steps in that direction.
Speaker 1: It is critical that we engage with the public with
Speaker 1: we engage in local communities. We engage with people of
Speaker 1: color and communities of color in their various manifestations, whether
Speaker 1: it's through with Non Leyo or a maldef or the
Speaker 1: Asian American associations that look out for those interests. It's
Speaker 1: really important to have those types of conversations that are continuous,
Speaker 1: and it's through having those conversations and demonstrating that their
Speaker 1: concerns matter by incorporating those into actions we take in
Speaker 1: the future. Through that loop and through us demonstrating with
Speaker 1: hard data that we can we can help their communities
Speaker 1: and all communities, I think we will build build trust.
Speaker 2: And what are we going to do or what are
Speaker 2: you going to do with the fact that there's an
Speaker 2: acknowledgment of a pretty severe undercount that happened, particularly in
Speaker 2: black Latino Latino LATINX communities. What's your plan? You again,
Speaker 2: if you're like, well, we can't deal with what happened
Speaker 2: in the past, that's already happened, But then what is
Speaker 2: the plan? Like a very specific plan.
Speaker 1: Yes, and we're in the midst of forming plans for
Speaker 1: the twenty thirty census. But please be aware that the
Speaker 1: plans for increasing participation and representation in the data collections
Speaker 1: that we do are spread to all of the one
Speaker 1: hundred and thirty or so surveys that we do every year,
Speaker 1: as well as our economic censuses that are coming up.
Speaker 1: And Latinos and African Americans have local businesses and such,
Speaker 1: so we're looking to to do that.
Speaker 2: So again, I love the fact that I have these
Speaker 2: very specific reactions about the census when every year, every decade,
Speaker 2: you know, when I have to deal with this, but
Speaker 2: the term Hispanic, the term Latino, Latina, LATINX, you know,
Speaker 2: Afro Latini, that indigenous cells. I mean, I every time
Speaker 2: I look at the census, I'm like, but I'm not here.
Speaker 2: I don't feel I like, I don't the boxes, which box,
Speaker 2: which checking of the box. I'm sure you felt this
Speaker 2: way too, So what's your plan to kind of make
Speaker 2: the senses like read the room, understand the United States
Speaker 2: and it's actually living in Because it feels like it's
Speaker 2: the census again of the white men from the nineteen
Speaker 2: fifties that were kind of creating the paradigms, and the
Speaker 2: paradig times have all shifted.
Speaker 1: That is a wonderful starting point for this notion that
Speaker 1: society has tangibly changed over the last twenty thirty forty years,
Speaker 1: where people are understanding and embracing different cultures and ancestries,
Speaker 1: and an organization like the Census Bureau and more broadly,
Speaker 1: the federal statistical system, because there's lots of other groups
Speaker 1: in the federal government that collect data, need to understand
Speaker 1: and be contemporary with the way that people identify themselves
Speaker 1: and our notions of who we are, especially with multi
Speaker 1: race couples and children and multi ethnic couples and children.
Speaker 1: People are just becoming more aware of who they are,
Speaker 1: and when they do that, they think of themselves differently,
Speaker 1: and so using standards like the ones we currently have
Speaker 1: that we're developed in nineteen ninety seven aren't necessarily the
Speaker 1: best ones to capture the rich diversity of our.
Speaker 3: Wonderful population right now.
Speaker 1: We are at the Census Bureau don't have the authority
Speaker 1: to simply change race ethnicity questions. It needs to go
Speaker 1: through a process by the federal government to update the standards,
Speaker 1: and we are actively working with the Office of Management
Speaker 1: and Budget, which is part of the White House. They're
Speaker 1: the group that creates and revises standards, and our understanding
Speaker 1: is that that process with regard to ethnicity as well
Speaker 1: as with regard to sojiate questions, sexual orientation, and gender identity, well,
Speaker 1: those discussions will be commencing soon, and we have existing
Speaker 1: research that we've already done as well as ideas on
Speaker 1: how to go forward to better capture that rich diversity
Speaker 1: and the disaggregation of Latinos, disaggregation of whites, disaggregation African Americans, Asians,
Speaker 1: tribal communities, and so forth.
Speaker 2: I remember when I started hearing that term disaggregation, So
Speaker 2: just so people get it, can you just define what
Speaker 2: disaggregation means? Because I think while you're the head of
Speaker 2: the census, people will be hearing that murd a lot more.
Speaker 3: Yeah, forgive me.
Speaker 1: I like to pride myself as being someone who can
Speaker 1: speak more.
Speaker 3: To the public.
Speaker 1: But then I throw out, I bust out the term
Speaker 1: disaggregation and oh, it's obviously it's a it's an industry term.
Speaker 1: Disaggregation really is very basic. Latinos are not a monolithic population.
Speaker 1: We're luck together as a group of different groups of
Speaker 1: a set of peoples. They're Kubanos, you know, folks from
Speaker 1: Dominican Mexicans, even you know, Central and South America and
Speaker 1: so forth in Puerto Ricans. And it's important to be
Speaker 1: able to understand those differences because different communities can have
Speaker 1: different mixes of a specific type of Latino. Not to mention,
Speaker 1: you bring in immigrant status as well, and that will
Speaker 1: trigger notions of what types of community needs there are.
Speaker 1: How to better address issues like, you know, how do
Speaker 1: we convince folks to take vaccines, how do we get
Speaker 1: folks to register to vote? How do we get folks
Speaker 1: to understand the value of fruits and vegetables for a
Speaker 1: more nutritious meal, even though they may not have a
Speaker 1: libapal wage, you know, to buy those types of products.
Speaker 1: So we really need to understand the rich diversity, and
Speaker 1: that's what de segregation means.
Speaker 2: I think part of what you're trying to do is,
Speaker 2: as you say, you want you and your whole staff
Speaker 2: to bring their entire selves into the Census Bureau because
Speaker 2: that ultimately will lead to a better Census bureau. You
Speaker 2: have actually and you talk a lot about equity and inclusion,
Speaker 2: and you've actually taken some steps. So what are you
Speaker 2: doing in terms of your own staff and that diversity
Speaker 2: representation and inclusion.
Speaker 1: Well, on the staff that I work with directly, there
Speaker 1: is actually an incredibly rich diversity of Latinos, of African Americans,
Speaker 1: of white individuals.
Speaker 3: From different backgrounds.
Speaker 1: We have efforts to transform and modernize the Census Bureau
Speaker 1: because we absolutely need it in order to survive in
Speaker 1: the future. And part of that is making sure that
Speaker 1: we do things like review all of our policies and
Speaker 1: practices for two things. One is to make sure they
Speaker 1: are equitable, and my guess is that most, if not all,
Speaker 1: will end up being equitable. We've got to do our
Speaker 1: due diligence. And the second is the practice. It's policies
Speaker 1: and practice. You can have an equitable policy, if it's
Speaker 1: not implemented in the right way, you may as well
Speaker 1: not have the policy.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Altogether, we're also looking in a very honed way at
Speaker 1: assembling data from different sources in ways that can facilitate
Speaker 1: a better understanding of community from an equity lens.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, you've been able to tell us a
Speaker 2: lot about you know, kind of your work right now,
Speaker 2: but we do know that you'll there will be a
Speaker 2: finite period of time in which you serve as the
Speaker 2: director of the Senses. And I can tell, with all
Speaker 2: due respect that you're a little bit of a nerd
Speaker 2: am I right?
Speaker 3: Yes, I confess.
Speaker 2: So what do you want the legacy? Your legacy? You're
Speaker 2: the first Latino to lead the Senses, You're the first
Speaker 2: man with a ponytail that we know of in the
Speaker 2: modern ages. So what do you want your legacy to be?
Speaker 1: It's interesting people keep asking me that, and I keep
Speaker 1: telling them I am not that type of leader. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't want to leave the Census Bureau, And
Speaker 1: folks say, well, Rob did X, Rob did Y, and
Speaker 1: Rob did C. I would much rather because of who
Speaker 1: I am and my belief in how I lead to
Speaker 1: enable all kinds of staff to do great things and
Speaker 1: then to help them find the resources to be innovative,
Speaker 1: to tangibly demonstrate what it means to live in an
Speaker 1: equitable work environment. So my legacy, if you look at
Speaker 1: it from the in that sense, isn't going to be
Speaker 1: an accomplishment as much as a driver to allow people
Speaker 1: to become excellent. In the context of diversity, equity, and inclusion,
Speaker 1: and that's what my legacy. I want my legacy to be.
Speaker 1: I helped people do their job better well.
Speaker 2: Director Robert Roberto Santos, thank you so much for joining
Speaker 2: me on Latino USA.
Speaker 1: It was an absolute honor, Maria, and thank you very
Speaker 1: much for this opportunity to let folks know who I am.
Speaker 2: Since my conversation with Director Santos, the White House Office
Speaker 2: of Management and Budget announced that it has started a
Speaker 2: formal review in order to revise the race and Ethnicity classifications.
Speaker 2: It uses these to collect data across federal agencies to
Speaker 2: quote better reflect the diversity of the American people end quote.
Speaker 2: These classifications have not been revised since nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Renaldo Leanos Junior. It was
Speaker 2: mixed by Stephanie Lebou and Julia Caruso. The Latino USA
Speaker 2: team includes Victori Estrada, Andrea Lopez Brusavo, Dori mar Marquez,
Speaker 2: Marta Martinez, Mike Sargent, Nor Saudi, and Nancy Drujuigo. Benny
Speaker 2: les Amidez is our co executive producer. Our marketing manager
Speaker 2: is Luis Duna. Our theme music was composed by Saniel
Speaker 2: Roubinos I'm your host and executive producer Maria Rojosa join
Speaker 2: us again on our next episode. In the meantime, I'll
Speaker 2: see you on social media by te Ba Yas.
Speaker 3: Latino USA is supported by the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, the
Speaker 3: Tao Foundation, and Michelle Mercer and Bruce Golden.
Speaker 2: And by the way, I hear you're a big griller
Speaker 2: and you love to barbecue, and I'm like, Okay, I
Speaker 2: want to be invited to that barbecue. Director Santos, Okay,
Speaker 2: that's the barbecue. I want to be invited to. Yours,
Speaker 2: your invitation the hand, San Antonio Barbecue. But anyway,