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Speaker 1: Yello. Why hello? Now, what kind of greeting is that

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Speaker 1: You've got your radio voice on? Could you elaborate on

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Speaker 1: what you mean by that?

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Speaker 2: I know in the first second, if I'm being recorded

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Speaker 2: or on your inflections.

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Speaker 1: Well, I always talk like this, Jackie. Back to you.

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Speaker 1: The way you're speaking with me now is never the

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Speaker 1: way you would normally speak. Okay, wait, hang on a second.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm just talking normal, but you're not talking normal.

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Speaker 1: It's your radio voice. Hey, what's going on? It's still

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Speaker 1: not It's still not. It's still not. Hey. No, hey

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Speaker 1: Jackie again, Jackie, No, you wouldn't say him like that.

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Speaker 1: How's it going? Too much energy?

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Speaker 3: Hi?

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Speaker 1: I can tell anyway. It can't be a radio voice

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Speaker 1: because I do a podcast. It's a podcast voice, all right,

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Speaker 1: And welcome to the show from Gimlet Media. I'm Jonathan

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Speaker 1: Goldstein and this is Heavy Wait today's episode, Dina. Hello, Hello, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so we just got to Montreal. We we What's that?

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Speaker 4: Isn't that how you say yes in French?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? But you just say it once you to say

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Speaker 1: we we My folks are about to meet us, pick

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Speaker 1: us up at the airport to take us back to

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Speaker 1: their place. Where we will be staying for the next

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Speaker 1: five days, five days, five days, in my childhood home,

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Speaker 1: in the childhood bed i've not slept in in decades.

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Speaker 1: My wife, Emily, and I are here for passover, to

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Speaker 1: sup upon the bread of affliction. Growing up, though, it

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Speaker 1: was everything of affliction, candy, corn of affliction, road trips

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Speaker 1: of affliction, bedtime stories of affliction. I moved out when

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Speaker 1: I was nineteen, but from age one to eighteen, what

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Speaker 1: I remember most is the vague feeling of worry permeating

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Speaker 1: the household. Worry that manifested is yelling, yelling through closed doors,

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Speaker 1: yelling across the kitchen table, my father yelling into a

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Speaker 1: junk drawer desperately trying to find a working pen, my

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Speaker 1: mother yelling into a clogged toilet, desperately trying to make

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Speaker 1: it go down. But more often than not, the yelling

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Speaker 1: wasn't over anything at all. We were just a naturally loud,

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Speaker 1: anxious family, a race of nervous giants shrunk into the

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Speaker 1: bodies of little Jews.

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Speaker 4: Man.

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Speaker 1: When I move out of here, I'd say in my teens,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to live like sting, peace and quiet, meditation,

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Speaker 1: tea and tantric sex, and now after years of oolong

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Speaker 1: roubis and lemon roubis, I'm home again for my first

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Speaker 1: trip back with Emily and our five month old son Aggie.

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Speaker 1: Day one. Here they are my parents. Tyota pulls up

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Speaker 1: to the airport, pickups and passes us. Try to catch

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Speaker 1: They don't see us here. We're right here. My mother

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Speaker 1: jumps out. She runs back towards us, pointing at Aggie's ears.

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Speaker 1: His ears are exposed.

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Speaker 2: Hi, Hi, emily ears are exposed.

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Speaker 1: Both my mother and father where their woolen caps pull

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Speaker 1: down well past their ears. In younger, stronger days, they

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Speaker 1: might have stretched those camps right down over their feet,

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Speaker 1: but they're old now. My mother Dina seventy two, and

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Speaker 1: my father Buzz eighty three.

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Speaker 3: I want to drive slowly, not too fast. I want

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Speaker 3: to go carefully.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, fine, Well, Buzz is high strung. Dina's intensity

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Speaker 1: is capable of raising the emotional temperature of any space

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Speaker 1: she occupies in elevators, walk in pantries, and tiotas. Her

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Speaker 1: powers are especially acute.

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Speaker 2: Like a funny feeling in my throat, Like it's like

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Speaker 2: really emotional.

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Speaker 4: It's like a dreamed, you know, It's like a dream Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's like such a weird feeling.

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Speaker 1: I think the weird, elusive feeling my mother is trying

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Speaker 1: to describe is happiness.

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Speaker 2: It's just wonderful to see him, But I hope he's

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Speaker 2: going to be warm enough.

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Speaker 5: Did you bring him up a little something?

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Speaker 3: Home? Sweet home?

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Speaker 1: Walking through the door, I'm a twelve year old again,

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Speaker 1: home from school and looking forward to zoning out with

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Speaker 1: petticoat junction. I'm a sixteen year old rushing to the

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Speaker 1: bathroom to gargle out the smell of cigarettes. I'm a

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Speaker 1: forty eight year old, a grown ass man with a

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Speaker 1: grown ass ass. Parenting a newborn leaves a person with

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Speaker 1: no time for squats. So don't judge Alex so nice

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Speaker 1: in here plate. I can't believe it. So normally the house,

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Speaker 1: a modest, semi detached bungalow, has a certain storage unit,

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Speaker 1: bombshelter vibe, walls of toilet paper, a cold room full

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Speaker 1: of canned fruit, cocktail needle points of biblical scenes, and torreadors,

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Speaker 1: all leaned up against the walls for fear of pounding

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Speaker 1: in a nail and regretting it forever. But today the

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Speaker 1: place looks positively sparse, So I just don't open.

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Speaker 2: A closet or the chore everything I'll tumble on your

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Speaker 2: head because when you've heard you guys are coming. I

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Speaker 2: threw everything into the closets and hid them.

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Speaker 1: My mother grabs Aggie and heads upstairs for a diaper change.

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Speaker 1: Emily and I trail behind.

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Speaker 2: I want him to be.

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Speaker 1: Fresh and clean.

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Speaker 2: Oh you're so sweet, You're so sweet, my angel.

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Speaker 1: Where the frige is the bag? The friggin bag contains

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Speaker 1: the friggin diapers that my mother bought for our visit.

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Speaker 1: It turns out it's on her lap.

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Speaker 2: I kept a bill because I wasn't sure if you

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Speaker 2: want me to return them or not.

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Speaker 1: Would you be able to return to use diapers? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You know me. I could return anything. I could return anything.

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Speaker 1: You know that, Johnny, I do know that returning stuff

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Speaker 1: is what my mother lives for. She sees it as

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Speaker 1: a staring contest, a game of chess, but with yelling.

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Speaker 1: I remember once going along with her as she returned

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Speaker 1: a shirt she'd bought for my father two years earlier.

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Speaker 1: It's missing a sleeve, she told the cashier, holding up

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Speaker 1: the article of clothing. The cashier turned it around and around.

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Speaker 1: It's not supposed to have sleeves. The cashier finally said,

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Speaker 1: it's a poncho. A poncho, my mother repeated, as though

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Speaker 1: it were a foreign word, which, in her defense, I

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Speaker 1: suppose it sort of is. I don't care what it is.

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Speaker 1: It's factory defective and my husband can't wear it. Whenever

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Speaker 1: she'd get this way, I'd adopt a stance meant to

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Speaker 1: convey filial loyalty, peppered with a touch of what Vietnam

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Speaker 1: Vets call the thousand yard stare. I've stood next to

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Speaker 1: my mother through countless exchanges, arguments, spectacles, and stinks. But

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Speaker 1: this is the first time I've stood by her side

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Speaker 1: as she diapers my son.

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Speaker 2: Oh look how much peepee he has? Oh, you made

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Speaker 2: a lot of pepi baby. See that's how I knew

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Speaker 2: you were sick. When you were a baby, Johnny, you

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Speaker 2: weren't peeping.

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Speaker 1: What was wrong with me? As a kid, it was

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Speaker 1: easy to be embarrassed by my mother. One time, a

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Speaker 1: popular boy named Jeordie showed up at our house. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't home, but my mother answered the door with her

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Speaker 1: hair on fire. My hair's on fire, she screamed. The

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Speaker 1: next day in school, Jeordie showed the whole class how

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Speaker 1: she screamed it. He wiggled his fingers in the air,

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Speaker 1: looking as though he was about to fall to his knees.

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Speaker 1: That night, I asked my mother what had happened. It

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Speaker 1: was the barbecue, She said, your father wasn't home, and

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Speaker 1: I was so in the mood for barbecued lamb chops.

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Speaker 1: It seems that while examining the chops for signs of spoilage,

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Speaker 1: she leaned her hair sprayed boufont too close to the grill.

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Speaker 1: While this explained the fire atop her head, it did

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Speaker 1: not explain why she answered the door while nursing a

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Speaker 1: fire atop her head. Growing up, this kind of stuff

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Speaker 1: happened all the time, so I was always on high

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Speaker 1: alert for humiliating emergencies. Being back home again, I feel

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Speaker 1: the old muscle memory kick back in. What that smells?

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Speaker 2: Something's burning?

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Speaker 1: Did you turn on the heater? Did you touch the heat? Though,

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Speaker 1: it turns out that one of the rag dolls my

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Speaker 1: mother had been hoarding somehow landed onto one of the

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Speaker 1: old lamps she'd been hoarding and had begun to burn.

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Speaker 2: I could have had a fire because I was so

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Speaker 2: careless for a shim.

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Speaker 1: The day plays out as a series of minor disasters averted.

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Speaker 1: In the morning, my mother loses her cell phone. We

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Speaker 1: find it in the night table. In the afternoon, a

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Speaker 1: screw to my father's glasses falls out. We replace it

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Speaker 1: with a twist tie. At dinner, a waiter charges my

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Speaker 1: mother for or potato. She claims she didn't order, but

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Speaker 1: after ten minutes of Camp David's style negotiations, it's dropped

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Speaker 1: from the bill. Before bed, my father can't find his passport.

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Speaker 1: Why do you need a passport? I ask? You always

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Speaker 1: need a passport, he says. We find it in the

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Speaker 1: night table. In the past, having someone witness all of

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Speaker 1: this would have made me feel anxious, But now having

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Speaker 1: Emily here makes me feel like I have an ally.

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Speaker 1: Turning to her in the midst of some crisis is

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Speaker 1: like looking directly into the TV camera and winking at

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Speaker 1: the audience.

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Speaker 2: Doggy Day two.

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Speaker 1: After we put Oggie to sleep, Emily and I lie

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Speaker 1: in bed. I ask for her thoughts and reflections on

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Speaker 1: the trip so far. Oh, come on, come on, no comment?

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Speaker 1: How could she resist? Look at how my mother acts

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Speaker 1: with Aggie, I say, trying to get Emily going, I

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Speaker 1: saw her put a pocket mirror under his nose while

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Speaker 1: he was sleeping to see if he was still breathing.

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Speaker 1: After every spoonful she feeds him, she asks, if he's choking.

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Speaker 4: You realize, though, that you say all that about Aggie

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Speaker 4: now too, like just a tiny little cough, and you

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Speaker 4: are doing it.

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Speaker 1: Is he breathing?

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Speaker 4: Can he sit like that? Can he touch that thing?

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Speaker 4: Can he eat that? Can he do that? Is he

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Speaker 4: supposed to be doing that?

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Speaker 1: What's wrong?

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Speaker 3: What's wrong?

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Speaker 1: What's wrong? What's he doing? What's he doing? Is he choking?

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Speaker 1: What's wrong?

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Speaker 4: You do a lot of that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: I can see to Emily that maybe I do just

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Speaker 1: a little of that kind of thing. But I wasn't

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Speaker 1: even in the parking lot of the ballpark of aDNA Goldstein.

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Speaker 4: You one day you dropped, you dropped Aggie off, and

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Speaker 4: you called me right afterward because you were so worried.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember this?

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Speaker 1: I do remember this. It was Aggie's first week of daycare.

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Speaker 1: He shares a babysitter with two little sisters, But on

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Speaker 1: that particular morning, when the babysitter opened the door, she

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Speaker 1: was alone. She told me the girls were napping in

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Speaker 1: another room.

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Speaker 4: You called me and said she was there alone. She

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Speaker 4: said they were in bed. I don't know. Maybe she

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Speaker 4: killed the whole family, and now she's going to kill Oggi.

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Speaker 1: And you weren't joking.

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Speaker 4: Like you knew it was a crazy thought, but you

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Speaker 4: needed me to tell you she didn't kill their family.

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Speaker 4: She's not going to kill Aggie.

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Speaker 1: I did not need you to tell me that.

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Speaker 4: And you're misremembering you were freaked out.

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Speaker 1: You were freaked out. I thought I was very stoic.

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Speaker 1: You called me and.

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Speaker 4: Said, I think the nanny is gonna murder our child,

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Speaker 4: and that she murdered the whole family.

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Speaker 1: That we do daycare with. I don't consider that stoic.

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Speaker 5: All right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just imaginative. That's one way to look

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Speaker 1: at it. Yet another way to look at it is

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Speaker 1: that I'm also crazy, just like my mom. Well, set

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Speaker 1: my hair on fire and open the front door. In

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Speaker 1: the days after Ougi was born, I couldn't stop thinking

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Speaker 1: terrible thoughts. Things I couldn't speak, not even to Emily.

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Speaker 1: With this new overwhelming love for my son came new

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Speaker 1: overwhelming fears for his safety, his heartbreaks to come, for

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Speaker 1: his old age, his loneliness, so I started seeing a therapist.

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Speaker 1: I explained how worry was the lingua franca of my childhood.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't allowed a paper route because it was a

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Speaker 1: good way to get abducted, no barefoot in because of

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Speaker 1: rusty nails. And I didn't even learn to swim until

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Speaker 1: junior high because water that's where people go to drown.

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Speaker 1: Worry and fear were how my mother communicated love. I

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Speaker 1: said to my therapist with a shrug, But love is love.

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Speaker 1: The important thing is that we feel it. But my

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Speaker 1: therapist's response troubled me. She said that love was the

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Speaker 1: transcendence of fear, that you might even say fear was

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Speaker 1: the opposite of love. Sitting at my childhood desk with

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Speaker 1: Aggie's toys scattered at my feet, my therapist's words returned

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Speaker 1: to me. If I was becoming my mother, would AGGI

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Speaker 1: someday become me? Someone weighed down by fear? And worry?

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Speaker 1: Was our genetic line nothing more than an inglorious chain

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Speaker 1: of Russian dolls? Should my therapist save the notes from

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Speaker 1: our sessions so I can send Aggie to her at

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Speaker 1: a discounted rate. I didn't want my son becoming me,

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Speaker 1: and there were only two people who could help me

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Speaker 1: understand how I became me, wh who charged New York

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Speaker 1: therapy rates that might leave me bankrupted before I'm cured?

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Speaker 1: And the other my mother day three. As a child,

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Speaker 1: I felt trapped and embarrassed by my mother. As an adult,

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Speaker 1: I came to be amused by her. It's only as

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Speaker 1: a freshly minted father visiting home for the first time

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Speaker 1: that I'm beginning to see that I am her.

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Speaker 2: How much you pay for apples seventy but I'm desperate?

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Speaker 1: This is what we normally talk about. Where to get

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Speaker 1: the best price on paper plates? Where to get the

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Speaker 1: best price on honeydew melon?

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Speaker 5: Dina?

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Speaker 3: What do you pay for a bottle of water.

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Speaker 2: Twenty four for a dollar eighty eight?

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Speaker 5: Bottle water.

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Speaker 2: Cox twenty four for six forty nine?

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Speaker 1: Will you pay for a loaf of bread? But after dinner,

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Speaker 1: after Aggie's gone to sleep, my mom and I sit

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Speaker 1: down at the kitchen table to have a different converse station.

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Speaker 1: Emily is reading in bed, and my father's watching TV

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Speaker 1: in the basement. It's just us. Hello, Hello, go ahead

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Speaker 1: and talk here. I am Why do you say here?

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Speaker 5: I am?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 1: Where should I say there?

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Speaker 2: I am?

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Speaker 1: Tonight? I want to talk about the fear, that thing

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Speaker 1: my family lives inside, like a snowsuit with a broken

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Speaker 1: zipper that can no more be removed than our own flesh.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the nameless thing that binds

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Speaker 1: all Goldstein's, that ignites us, propels us, and ultimately paralyzes us. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think about this stuff now, because you know, I

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Speaker 1: have I have a I have a son, and I think,

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Speaker 1: but I think he's so beautiful.

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Speaker 2: And I saw those blue eyes like no horas Bay's eggs.

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Speaker 1: My mother's not talking crazy talk, she's talking Yiddish.

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Speaker 5: So Bay's eggs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what does that mean?

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Speaker 5: Bad O?

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't hurt them. The bad eye, the evil eye,

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Speaker 1: the belief that merely saying something positive is enough to

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Speaker 1: invite evil forces to snuff the good thing out. So

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Speaker 1: even bringing up a normal son to mom question about

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Speaker 1: good parenting is enough to attract the eye. On the

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Speaker 1: day of my bar Mitzvah, my mother carefully sewed a

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Speaker 1: red ribbon into my underwear. In this way, she reasoned,

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Speaker 1: should the evil eye turn its gaze upon me, I'd

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Speaker 1: be protected by my underwear. Why do you think you

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Speaker 1: do that evil eyed stuff? It's what you say, it's cuckoo.

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Speaker 2: I know it's cuckoo, but I can't help it.

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Speaker 1: But then that's just a superstition. I don't know everybody

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Speaker 1: does it. I've never met anybody who puts red ribbons

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Speaker 1: in their own I'm saying I personally have never met

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Speaker 1: anyone who does that. So I can't say everybody puts

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Speaker 1: red ribbons in their underwear. But what what is it

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Speaker 1: supposed to be? Warding off? But what is the evil eye?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. This is how conversations with Dina often go.

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Speaker 1: The derail hit dead ends. So when I ask her

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Speaker 1: why was our home the way it was? I expect

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Speaker 1: more of the same, But instead my mother grows quiet.

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Speaker 1: I worry, Yeah, I do too.

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Speaker 2: I'm afraid of this, afraid of that. Well, I was irrational.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking right, and I have a chance to

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Speaker 2: redo my a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Not with you, but with Augie. She stops talking and

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Speaker 1: stares into her lap for a while. We just sit there.

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Speaker 2: I look upon this as a second chance. I want

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Speaker 2: to correct my mistakes, Johnny, I want to redeem myself.

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Speaker 1: That's it. My mother doesn't usually talk this way if

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Speaker 1: something's causing her grief. She returns it to the store,

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00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 1: sends it back to the kitchen, and so talk of

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Speaker 1: second chances and redemption. The words sound weird coming out

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Speaker 1: of her mouth, and I don't know how to respond.

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Speaker 1: Where's all this coming from? I ask? Are you thinking

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Speaker 1: of something specific? It's too painful. I don't want Maybe

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Speaker 1: if you talk about it, you won't talk about it.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it could be anything. Then I can't.

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Speaker 1: I can't talk about it. Don't press me, please well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to force you. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: make you feel bad. I am ashamed of myself. Let's

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Speaker 1: change the subject, and with that the conversation ends. I'd

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Speaker 1: gotten to my mother for answers about my childhood, but

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Speaker 1: instead she has left me with questions I didn't even

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Speaker 1: know I had. What had happened that was so bad?

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Speaker 1: She couldn't even talk about it? What was she so

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Speaker 1: afraid to tell me? After the break, I find out, Hello, Hello,

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Speaker 1: So mom's upstairs with Emily. Do you have any insight?

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Speaker 1: Day four? I sit down with my father to see

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Speaker 1: if he has any idea what the second chance is

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Speaker 1: that my mother's talking about. He's hesitant to talk because

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Speaker 1: that goes against his strategy of staying out of the drama.

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Speaker 1: In fact, most of my childhood memories of him are

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Speaker 1: of a man in bed napping with a large volume

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Speaker 1: of World War II history splayed open on his chest.

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Speaker 1: This retiring nature might be the secret to having stayed

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Speaker 1: married to my mother for more than fifty years. What

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Speaker 1: is the thing that she is carrying around with her?

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Speaker 3: She's a very private person and she feels she doesn't

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Speaker 3: want to be intruded upon. Don't take it the wrong way, so.

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Speaker 1: You have no inkling. You don't know what's going on.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't even discussed with me. I don't know what guilt,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what she's talking.

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Speaker 1: Don't find it odd or intriguing in a way.

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Speaker 3: It's a touchy subject for her, and she's very reluctant

346
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Speaker 3: to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Talk about it. What's the it?

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Speaker 3: I don't know. You have to ask her, and she's

349
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Speaker 3: going to shut down. She's going to shut down.

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Speaker 1: This means she'll try to change the subject or start

351
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 1: to yell. But today I don't care. I just want

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Speaker 1: to know what the big secret is. I wonder what

353
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Speaker 1: it is? I say to Emily, who knows? She says

354
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,640
Speaker 1: while brushing her hair. So many things about your mom

355
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 1: are a mystery to me, like why is the kitchen

356
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 1: faucet always running full blast? And why does she keep

357
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 1: offering me paper towels. I think she says, you should

358
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Speaker 1: just let it go, but of course I can't. What

359
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: had my mother done that she wanted a second chance at?

360
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 1: Was it for the time she bought me a shirt

361
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Speaker 1: for my birthday that she later admitted was actually a dress?

362
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 1: Did you want to redo the time she dropped me

363
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Speaker 1: off at a birthday party and hollered out the car window.

364
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Speaker 1: Have fun? But if you get diarrhea and someone's on

365
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 1: the toilet, just making the bathtub diarrhea is not a

366
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Speaker 1: time for pride. Of course I now see the wisdom,

367
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Speaker 1: but as a child, her words were a source of shame.

368
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 1: I need to know. So I invite my mother out

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Speaker 1: for a Sunday stroll with Oggie and me. Maybe if

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00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: she can just relax, it'll come out like diarrhea.

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Speaker 5: We'll talk.

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Speaker 2: What should I say?

373
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Speaker 1: Learn to take your robble?

374
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Speaker 5: So tell me?

375
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 1: So, do you find walking with Hoggie relaxing?

376
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Speaker 2: Very relaxing? So nice? It's a pleasure, my little friend.

377
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Speaker 1: To start things off. I lobber an easy question, cocktail

378
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Speaker 1: party stuff. What's your first memory?

379
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,959
Speaker 2: Kindergarten? And we lived on Colonial four h three nine Colonial,

380
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 2: And I remember my father used to play peinockle and

381
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: he had a thumb that was the nail like the

382
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: thumbnail was very cut off, and all of a sudden

383
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 2: I thought of it, and I started screaming and crying

384
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 2: and carrying on. I'm worrying. Oh, I remember, how old

385
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: are you must have been four or five.

386
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Speaker 1: So an early memory is being at kindergarten and remembering

387
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 1: your father's thumbnail and starting to cry. What was it

388
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Speaker 1: that upset you about it?

389
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 2: I read about it because it wasn't like a regular thumb.

390
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: I was worried crazy.

391
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 1: I tried a guide her towards happy red inniscences, but

392
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: all her memories are awful. Rheumatic fever, scarlet fever, her

393
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Speaker 1: mother slapping her in Woolworth's for whining about a balloon

394
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 1: she wanted, waking up in the middle of the night

395
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 1: to find a wall in the kitchen covered in moths.

396
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 2: Then I remember my mother's pressure cooker in that house

397
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: hits the ceiling and pea soup was splattered everywhere, all

398
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 2: your memories.

399
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: Let's hear another memory. With the small talk exhausted, I

400
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: trepidaciously bring the subject back around to the do over.

401
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 2: I don't know, Johnny. I don't want to talk about it.

402
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: I don't want to remind myself the way I felt.

403
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 2: Doesn't conjure up good memories. Please, and that's the.

404
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 5: End of it.

405
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 2: I don't want to go into details.

406
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 1: Nonetheless, for the rest of the day, I can't stop

407
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 1: myself from asking for details, I asked, as she puts

408
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: away the breakfast dishes.

409
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 2: I have nothing more to say, Johnny.

410
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: Leave me be, I ask, as she cuts coupons while

411
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: watching Judge Judy with Emily in broad strokes.

412
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: Alone, Please Emily take him off me?

413
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: And while she peels boiled eggs for lunch, Leave me alone.

414
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: Later we all sit down for dinner and with it

415
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 1: some wine.

416
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: What's wrong with me?

417
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: I think I'm off my rock. My mother rarely drinks wine.

418
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 2: Oh my god, how did I get like this?

419
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 5: Mom?

420
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 1: You just had a glass of wine. As she drifts

421
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: off into an inebriated slumber, I give it one last try,

422
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 1: can I Is there anything you need to tell me? No,

423
00:25:50,680 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: any secrets to reveal No, I was getting nowhere day five?

424
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: All right, you want to change him? What? It's our

425
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: last day, and I've decided to give it a rest.

426
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: I stop asking weird questions and we all just hang out.

427
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: We talk about the price of things, We yell from

428
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: room to room, We search for lost cell phones, and

429
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: grow pleasantly bored with each other's company. Overall, it's pretty nice. Well,

430
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: while putting Aggie down for a nap, my mother has

431
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: a question for me, Sonny, what was it.

432
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 2: That you were hoping to get from me? Oh?

433
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 1: I really did just want to be able to have

434
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: a conversation, that's all I'm not. I don't want to.

435
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to cause your distress.

436
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 2: You're not causing distress.

437
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 5: It's it's what it was.

438
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: And I don't even want to talk about old, painful stuff.

439
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: Who was sweet?

440
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: What?

441
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: She lays Aggie down, She stands over the crib. She

442
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 1: starts to say something, but then trails away. What are

443
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: we saying? All right, I'm gonna turn it off. Then

444
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 1: I was not adopted. I had no secret twin, and

445
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: my mother had no secret family. There were no murders,

446
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: no affairs. It turns out that my mother's big secret.

447
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: The thing that was so hard for her to say

448
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: was that she was sorry for a lot of things,

449
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: some small, some not so small. Some I remember, some

450
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: I don't, calling me names, screaming at me a lot.

451
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: How she could have been nicer to my girlfriends, How

452
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: she used to pull my hair, hit me. Hitting kids

453
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: was like the hula hoop. Back then, I say, a fad.

454
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 1: Everyone did it. It wasn't right, she says. Back then

455
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 1: people didn't know better. I say, I should have known better.

456
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: She says, I forgive you. I say, I don't forgive myself.

457
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: So I forgive her again, and I mean it, And

458
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: then I turned the recorder back on.

459
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 2: I love you, honey. You made it a little easier

460
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 2: for me.

461
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: Thank you. I love you too much. When you become

462
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: a parent, your whole life changes, but you forget that

463
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: some things stay the same. I'd been so focused on

464
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: becoming a better father that I forgot I was still

465
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: a son. And maybe learning to be a better son

466
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: is how you become a better dad. Anyway I want

467
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: him to be. On the last morning of our visit,

468
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: my mother and I head to the park. As a kid,

469
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: the park was someplace I usually went with my grandfather

470
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: or father. One of the only times I remember going

471
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: with my mother, two collies appeared out of nowhere and

472
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: began chasing us. I remember we separated and the dogs

473
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: chased her while I hid behind a tree. I look

474
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: around the playground from my own childhood with her. I

475
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: knew most things were out sandbox because someone could have

476
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: peed in there. Same for the swings, monkey bars, teeter totters,

477
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: and merry go rounds. But then something surprising happens. Picking

478
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: Aggie up out of the stroller, my.

479
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: Mother says, I'll take him down the slide.

480
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: He's never he's never gone down the side.

481
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: Come with Bobby Henney. We'll go down the slide together.

482
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: Okay, you're gonna go with him down the side. Well,

483
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: what do you think I'll put himself? I didn't. You're

484
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: not afraid to go down the slide.

485
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 5: Why would I be afraid?

486
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. Okay, be careful, yeah.

487
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: On my nervis, I wasn't afraid.

488
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: Be careful. I don't know. My mother hands me back

489
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: Aggie and holding onto the railing, she carefully climbs the

490
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: steps to the top of the slide. When she gets there,

491
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 1: I climb up too, and hand Aggie back to her

492
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: with hesitation. She positions them onto her lap and I

493
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: run around to the bottom of the slide to await

494
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: their arrival.

495
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 5: And you stand there and catch us in chase bad for.

496
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: Me, And then Dina lets go.

497
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 2: You're gonna go down.

498
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: Whoo whoo. He's having fun. Huh, so much fun in fact,

499
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: that my mother decides to do it again. And so

500
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: again she climbs up the steps, all three of them,

501
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: to the top of the ladder, and from the grand

502
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: height of three and a half feet, my mother and

503
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 1: son descend the toddler slide once more, sliding sliding down

504
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: the snide. Oggie loves it, so they do it again

505
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: a third chance, a fourth, and even a fifth. Then

506
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: we move on to the bouncy caterpillar, the rope bridge,

507
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: and the swings.

508
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: Swim swingy Oggy's going swingy, the itsy bitsy spider win

509
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: up the water.

510
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: Parenthood is like a redo of your own childhood, and

511
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: grandparenthood is like a redo of that. That's all life is,

512
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: learning and relearning the same lessons over and over all

513
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: of us, like those itsy bitsy spiders crawling up endless

514
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: water spouts, trying to make just a little more progress

515
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: each time we set out. There's comfort in knowing that

516
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: no one ever gets it right, no matter how many

517
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: chances we get. But hopefully at least a few things

518
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: go right, a few purely kind gestures somehow get through,

519
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: And for everything else we ask for forgiveness, And if

520
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: we're lucky, we'll receive it, and if we're luckier, we'll

521
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: forgive ourselves too.

522
00:32:27,400 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 5: Horrors.

523
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: Now that the vernitures returning to its.

524
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: Goodwill home, now that the last month's rent is scheming

525
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: with the damaged.

526
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 3: Pole, take this moment to dissolved, if we meant it,

527
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 3: if we tried, but felt.

528
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: Around for far too empty from things that accidentally talk.

529
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: Eavyweight is hosted and produced by me Jonathan Goldstein along

530
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: with Khalila Holt. The senior producer is Caitlin Roberts, editing

531
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: by Jorge just Alex Bloomberg and Wendy Tour Special thanks

532
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: to Emily Condon, Emmanuel Berry, Pat Walters, and Jackie Cohen.

533
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: The show is mixed by Kate Bolinski, music by Christine

534
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: Fellows and John K. Sampson. Additional music credits for this

535
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: episode can be found on our website Gimbletmedia dot com

536
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: slash Heavyweight. Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans

537
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 1: courtesy of Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by

538
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: Hailey Shaw. Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight. This is

539
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: our last episode of the season, but we're already looking

540
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: for stories for season three, so if you have one,

541
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: email us at Heavyweight at gimletmedia dot com. And if

542
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: you see fit phunch in some stars for us on iTunes.

543
00:34:42,640 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Oh oh sign

544
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 5: M