WEBVTT - Permission to be Unavailable 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:05.240 Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.880 New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.400 activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.799 And I'm doctor add In the Rucar, a physician and 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:21.120 medical correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.400 mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.600 layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:31.000 men's time as if it's diamonds, and to treat women's 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.400 time as if it's infinite like sands. And whether you 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:37.240 are partnered with or without children, or in a career 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:39.960 where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.040 you for all family structures. We're here to take a 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:49.600 time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 0:00:49.800 --> 0:01:02.160 our time. High d D High Eve, It's good to 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.360 see your face and hear your voice. It's great to 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.920 see you. As always, we're in our little unicorn space together, 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.160 so thank you for that. You know, we're thinking and 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:17.960 talking about boundary setting right this idea of what is 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:23.520 it take to actually set a true boundary in one's life, 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:26.720 and if you're a marginalized population. If you're a woman, 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:31.120 it is harder to say no. I was thinking of 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:34.280 my friend when I said to her, you deserve a 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.600 permission to be unavailable from your roles as a parent 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.760 and our partner and our professional and by professional I 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:43.800 mean anybody who works her pay or works in the home. 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.040 And she said to me, but Eve, who would I 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:52.040 be if I wasn't available? That's how she defines herself. 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.600 And so I was thinking a lot about this time 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.040 in the early pandemic. I want to read you a 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:03.040 little bit about what I wrote about it in Unicorn Space, 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:09.400 my second book. I say that during that challenging time 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:12.800 when we just started to lock down, boundary setting became 0:02:12.840 --> 0:02:16.200 a fast necessity and the interests of self preservation, and 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.040 I applauded many of my friends who boldly instituted clear 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.880 lines of their own and an effort to juggle jobs, partners, kids, pets, 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.400 and their sanity all under one roof. I relish their 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.400 videos of hiding out in their kitchen pantries or escaping 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:33.160 to their bedroom closets double locked the door. My friend 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.040 Blessing said, as I was having a hard time with 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.720 re establishing boundaries when we went to a work from 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:44.800 home or home from work blended life, where the boundaries 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.520 seemed to be so fluid, and they're not as easy 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:50.760 to set, at least not for me. I laughed at 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.560 the caution tape that leave me alone, boxes, the impossible 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.079 to confuse, do not enter, and mommy's on the time 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:01.480 out signs my friends posted. But I wanted to talk 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.400 about my struggle because I had converted a corner of 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:07.639 our guest room adity into a writing nook, and I 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.760 really hope to write uninterrupted for two hours over each weekend. 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:15.160 It seemed feasible, right. We had done fair play that way, 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.400 but now it was a different time again. Boundaries are 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:22.680 moving moving during the pandemic. So at breakfast one Sunday morning, 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.679 I announced to Seth and Zach and Benanana, after we 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:28.320 finish up, I'm going to go work on my book 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:32.639 for two hours. I'll be home, but pretend I'm not home, right, 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.840 So they nodded in vague agreement, and once the table 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.320 was cleared, I retreated to the guest room. Well guess 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.440 what happened. It's not rocket science, you'll people, I guess. 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.360 Five minutes, there's a knock on the door. It was seth, Hey, 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:48.720 I know you're busy, but I just want to let 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:50.560 you know that I'm gonna need your car later to 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:54.119 go pick up the groceries. Okay, cool, cool, okay. By 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.800 a few minutes later, Ben comes in, Um, mom, when 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.280 you're gonna read my homework assignment? Later later, I say, 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:06.839 I just you know, shut that door. Thirty seconds later, 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.920 Anna person with her loving passy. I want my mommy. 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:15.440 I want my mommy. So I kept thinking, you know, 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:20.040 good God, these walls are really freaking thin. So the 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.040 next week I tried again to communicate my boundary. I 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:25.000 explained I was taking two hours to write and I 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.920 was unavailable to answer questions, make snacks if you need something, 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.520 asked daddy, and to have her home. The point I 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:35.080 started to put an unavailable post it on my breast, 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.840 like on my boob, on top of my breasts, right 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.240 where they could see it at eye level, and I 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.360 said I am unavailable, showing Anna because she's a media 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:48.000 With the post it meant okay. So I go into 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:52.880 my office five minutes later, knock on the door. It 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.720 was seth again, Hey, I know you're unavailable, but no 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.840 butts I'm working, started screaming. Shut the door. A few 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:02.120 minutes later and it comes in again. She sucking a lollipop. 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:04.880 She comes up in my chair. She points at my 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.200 post it and then she whispers, I love you and 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.720 sort of licks my ear. Is very cute, but really disruptive, 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:13.400 and so I figured since she's not reading, she didn't 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.760 really understand, and she meant, okay, Well, interruptions are okay 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:18.719 as long as I lick your ear and they're delivered 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:22.599 with love if I interrupt you. So I had ten 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:28.440 minutes of solitude when finally Ben barges in. What is it? 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:32.160 I asked, and I'm starting to get really agitated, and 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.800 he looks at me, and he stands there and we're staring, 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:41.360 sort of an eye to eye contest, and he says, hey, mom, 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.680 your post it's falling off, and that was it. I 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.279 looked at him. I took the post it off my chest. 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:50.719 I crumble it up into a damn ball. I throw 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:53.720 it at him, and I say, get the funk out, Ben, 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.680 get out, get out, get out. I'm unavailable. I started 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:00.480 throwing stuff. I throw all the books off my death. 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.839 I drove my pens on the floor. I started smashing things, 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.880 stomping around, and then you know what, that two hours 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:12.000 I was unavailable. But all the guilt and shame of 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:15.040 having that rage blow up at my kids and cursing 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:18.320 it then and screaming and having to lock the door, 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.440 I just sat there and I just started to cry. 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:25.719 And it was too much. It was too much, I thought. 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:27.280 You know, I'm the person who's supposed to be an 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.560 expert at setting boundaries and I couldn't even set boundaries 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:34.800 of my own. You know, I laughed at many points 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:39.640 because it was just so relatable, But there's such deep 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.159 sadness there. You know what's so interesting about the story 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.159 and so many others during the pandemic is that saying 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:49.119 no and having that sense of I need my time 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:54.400 is something that's biologic within us. But the actual saying that, 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:58.400 doing the orchestrating is very difficult because saying no is 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.880 also a socialized response. So basically you're saying, biologically, we 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:07.360 are programs to say no, of course, when something is uncomfortable, 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.320 or something is disturbing our inner peace or inner sanctity, 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.480 when we are high stressed, as you say, high stress, 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:18.600 low cognition, right in those moments when you just are focused. 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:20.920 During high stress mode, you need those two hours to 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.320 do your work and to focus. And during the pandemic, 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.520 when there is no time for yourself because your children 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:30.040 and partner and everyone is at home, those two hours 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.600 on the weekend we're very precious to you. So it 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.280 is a natural inclination during those periods of stress to 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:41.600 feel no. I need this space. That difficulty is translating 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:47.520 those feelings into words and actions, because saying no and 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.120 taking that step, there's a wide divide because that's all 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.880 the socialization process. So that's the discrepancy, and I think 0:07:55.000 --> 0:08:00.520 that's always the conflict. There's a wide gap between feeling 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:02.760 no and saying no, and we need to figure out 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.320 ways to close the gap. But to be able to 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:11.280 say it and give ourselves permission requires a lot of education, research, 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:17.400 guidance systems, aligning external forces, and that allows us to 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:21.320 actually work on the doing of no rather than just 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.440 the feeling of no. I love that the doing of no, 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:26.520 So I think that's what we're talking about today. We're 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.960 talking about the doing of no, the feeling of no. 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.000 When you don't have a doing of no, a deity 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:39.440 is in my research, extreme rage and that is where 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:43.400 we're stuck a lot of the time. That the crumbling 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:45.920 up of the post it for me and throwing it 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:50.640 at Ben's head was a I feel like you said, Adity, 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.079 it's such a good way to look at this. I'm 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:57.120 feeling the no. It's bubbling up inside of me. It's 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:01.400 becoming a toxic bile inside of me. But I literally 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:05.880 feel like I have no control over the doing of no. 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.400 And this is the hard part. When I did do 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:13.520 the no through rage, it meant I couldn't actually do 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.439 the yes. I couldn't do the thing that I wanted 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:21.400 to do that day, which was right because instead, because 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:23.240 I had such a hard time with the doing of no, 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.360 it impeded those two hours. It wasn't a free two 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:32.839 hours of uninterrupted attention because my attention and my insides 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:38.679 were stuck in the past hour of feeling that complete regret. 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:45.520 So I think it's this rage, resentment and regret cycle 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:50.120 that we stop when we actually can do no in 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.520 a productive way. And again people laugh. You have two 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.360 chapters on communication in a book about creativity. Find your 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:03.000 unicorn space, yes, because the doing of no is that hard. 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:08.160 So let's learn to say no. Today. I'm really excited 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:12.480 to explore these themes further with our guests today. He's 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:16.800 a good friend of mine, Greg McEwen. He's a public speaker, 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.520 a leadership and a business strategist. He's a New York 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:24.439 Times bestselling author of two of my favorite books. The 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:29.439 first one is Essentialism, The Disciplined Pursuit of Less, and 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.640 his new book Effortless, Making it Easier to Do what matters. 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:38.720 Most are books I think are must read. So he's 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:40.959 going to be joining us after the break to discuss 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:57.440 setting boundaries and how to say no. Here to discuss 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:02.400 setting boundaries and how to say No is Greg McEwen. Hi, Greg, 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:04.800 it's so nice to be with you. Thank you both 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.600 for having me. Well, we love your work and can't 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.559 you couldn't be more important now, I think as we 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.679 think about a return to our values, a return to 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:17.800 things that are important. So what is your work? How 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:19.880 would you describe your work for those who may not 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:24.040 know it? Can you describe Essentialism for us? Yes? My 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:26.319 name is Greg mckewen, and I am the author of 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:30.079 two New York Times bestsellers. Essential is um The Discipline 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.480 Pursuit of Less, which is all about figuring out what 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:38.920 what is essential, eliminating everything that's not, so that you 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.920 can make it as effortless as possible to do what 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:45.880 is essential. And that's what my most recent book is 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.679 specifically about, is how to make it more effortless if 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:52.920 you have to combine both of them in a simple idea. 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:58.120 I think it's healthy productivity. And that doesn't sound that profound, perhaps, 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:03.040 but in a time of so much unhealthy productivity, it 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.679 seems to have struck a nerve. And it's really a 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.520 shame that these things are as relevant as they are, 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.320 because we want to find a better way, a different 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.040 way to do life. What I love about your work 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.560 so much is I always try to bring it into 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.240 the work of the home being the most important organization, 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.439 or as this one man said to me that I 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:26.760 think I told you about where he said, I mean 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.480 like the opposite of my home, where we wait to 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:32.200 decide who's taking the dog out right when it's about 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.040 to take a piss on the rug. And I said, exactly, 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:38.000 whatever that is. I want the opposite for you, just 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.680 that that thing, but the opposite. And I think where 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.839 your work intersects with adity in my work, and we're 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.439 burnout in wellness is I always like to say, you know, 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.640 I wish burnout now is as easy as taking a 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:53.480 walk around the block. Like you'll hear some of these 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:58.040 productivity experts say or carving out five minutes a day 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.160 for your meditation practice. But I really truly believe that 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.800 the antidote to burnout is being interested in your own life. 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.959 And when you are on a treadmill of milestones, you 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.120 can't be that way. So you you teach us how 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.360 to start thinking about what it is that we're truly 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.200 interested in. What does it mean to me an essentialist? 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.880 How do you return to that state if you're somebody 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:26.800 who is like my friend who's dying in decision fatigue 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.920 and waiting to take the dog out right when he's 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.080 about to take a piss on the road. Yeah, look, 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:36.679 I mean there there's a big clear difference between non 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:42.400 essentialists and essentialists. Non Essentialists think, do, and get very 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:46.120 different things. So what do they think? They think everything 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:51.199 is essential, everything is important, and so what that produces 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.240 is what Jim Collins is called the undisciplined pursuit of more, 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.280 where you're reacting to everything, you're living in your inbox 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.800 you're in a zoom, eat, sleep, repeat lifestyle. You're just 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.400 dealing with things when you cannot not deal with them, 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.280 and so this is a way to survive, but you're 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:15.000 not thriving in that, and it really is exhausting for 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.720 everyone involved to just be in a sort of slightly 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:22.240 panicked mode all the time. And so what you get 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:26.400 is unsatisfying results because you're not even sure if the 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:28.720 right things are getting done or not, and they're probably not. 0:14:29.400 --> 0:14:31.320 Your to do list is longer at the end of 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.920 the day that it was at the beginning. You're stretched 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.240 too thin at work or at home or both, you 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:41.160 feel busy but not productive. Then then these things can 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.720 even get worse over time. And that's really what they've 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:47.000 been addressing more recently, is that people really are teaching 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.640 right on the edge of exhaustion. They want to get 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:53.560 to another level, but they lack the energy because this 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:56.600 has gone on for quite a while, and then eventually 0:14:56.760 --> 0:15:01.840 everything feels like it's just harder than it needs to be. Right, 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:06.920 that's the non essential list story. The essentialist is different 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:10.120 to all of that. The essentialist thinks, does and gets 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:15.400 really different things. They think almost everything is non essential 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.600 and a few things only are essential. So it's almost 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.560 the opposite mindset. And so as soon as you believe 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.720 that that there's just a few things that are vital 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:29.520 and almost everything is trivial. As Maxwell put it, it's 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:34.160 difficult to overstate the unimportance of practically everything. Once you 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:39.320 adopt that idea, then your behavior naturally shifts because you 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.000 start to say, well, I've got to explore what's essential. 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:44.320 Then I have to find out what really matters and 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:47.520 discern between all of these things coming at me. I 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.840 need to eliminate the non essential things, even if they 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.880 feel like it's all just pressure or the fomo because 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:55.680 of the people are doing it, and I have to 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.240 get rid of that stuff as much as I possibly can. 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:01.400 And then I need build systems. I know that's one 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:03.440 of your favorite words, and I love that word. To 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.360 make it as easy as possible to do what's essential, 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.640 so that in the best case scenario, these things happen 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:13.480 even if we aren't thinking about them. I mean, that's 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.720 the ultimate situation. That the systems and rituals of our 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:23.200 lives work. So whether you're sleeping, these things happen, whether 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.520 you're consciously thinking about them or not. They are happening, 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.640 and the result of that is a life that satisfied, 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.560 a life that really means something, and a sense of 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.440 like they're the right things are getting done and so 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:37.720 that you can have more joy in the journey. Now 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:41.200 that's the contrast. You know, in full disclosure, I've spent 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.640 plenty of my life in the first column, and even 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:46.840 on a day to day basis, I find myself jumping 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.320 between these things. So I struggle with this. I'm in 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:53.320 the wrestle with everybody else, but it's still helpful to 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.200 me to think of this contrast, to notice when I'm 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:58.480 in the first so that I can make decisions by 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:02.600 designed to get into the second. Make decisions by design. 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.479 Can I just say that three times? I think if 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:09.320 we had to distill what this podcast is about for 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:13.960 the home, it's making decisions by design so that you're 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:16.359 not reactive. So I'm going to turn it over to 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.400 a d d who's also an expert in wellness from 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.240 a medical field, and she has a couple of questions 0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.240 for you. Greg. So you've kind of laid out the 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:29.359 difference between non essentialism and essentialism. So in eaves work, 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:34.080 it's this idea of giving ourselves permission. So for those 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:38.520 of us who might be living in the non essential mindset, 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:43.120 to get to that essential is m that's a big leap. 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.240 But we have to almost like give ourselves permission to 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.439 get there, to stay there. Can you talk to us 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:51.480 a little bit more about that? How do we do that? 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:54.160 How do we take that first step? First of all, 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:57.359 you know, read Eve's book. That seems like a good stunt. 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.399 This is non trivial right to to find kind of 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.160 unicorn space in our lives. I know from personal experience, 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.640 and Anna, my wife, is one of the most discerning 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:10.960 people in my life, but still struggles with this because 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.440 the responsibilities are so high, because she has so many 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:19.040 important things that she's taking seriously that carving out space 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:25.639 two formally work on something for her, something that she 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:30.240 wants to pursue and create, doesn't just happen. That is 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.800 never going to happen anymore in the world, as noisy 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.000 as it is, if you just take the path of 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:39.800 least resistance, if you just go with the cultural norms, 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.199 it is not going to happen. It will be consumed 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:47.280 with social media, with running children, places, with any number 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.359 of other activities, and so where do we start on 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.080 this here. Here are a few tactics I think people 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:57.399 should start with. One is to immediately look at the 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:02.400 next month of your life and blocking out time. Anything 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:05.240 that's not already blocked, you block it. You make an appointment, 0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:08.879 a meeting with yourself. We managed to make two meetings 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:11.159 of all sorts of things. We managed to be on 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.440 zoom appointments all sorts of times. So this is scheduling 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:18.200 time for yourself. You have to create this space because 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.000 it won't just exist. And maybe a few years ago 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:23.840 it would have just existed. You're late for a plane, 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.879 or you're or you're waiting to pick someone up and 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:28.800 they're not quite there and you just have to wait. 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:32.160 And the upside of that is that the space to think. 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:36.600 But now the moment that you could have thought or 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:40.399 imagined or explored your life, you just check your phone 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:42.879 and you're into all of these other habits. So I 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.920 think blocking out time ahead is one thing that you 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:49.159 can do. I think a second thing that people can do, 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.480 and this is like a microburst. So you say ten minutes, 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.680 I am going to set time for ten minutes. That's fine, 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.120 and I'm going to make my done for the day 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:03.439 list that is a thoughtful list that the criteria has 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:06.520 done for the day, meaning whence I'm done with this list, 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.480 I'm really done. I'm not going to do any sneaky 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:12.280 work after that. This is the work of my day, 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:16.680 and then I'm going to move into relaxation recuperation activities. 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.359 And so the done for the day list is a 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:23.200 prioritized list, but it's one that has a boundary to it. 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:25.520 And I will say I think I've done it, maybe 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.440 four out of the last five days, and the day 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:32.880 I didn't, you have a different experience. You feel more 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:37.479 in control, more deliberate, more thoughtful. To use the essentialist language, 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.720 it's a disciplined pursuit of less and you get to 0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.040 the end of the day and you feel more sure 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.320 as you're lying there in bed that the most important 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:49.280 things did get done, and you also didn't just keep 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:53.240 going as if you're a machine. Where biological creatures we 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.440 work in rhythms, and we shouldn't be treating ourselves like 0:20:56.560 --> 0:21:00.399 compusers or like factories. I have a followed quite into that, 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.800 which is your second book is so important because it's 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.920 really about figuring out what to fill with if we 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:13.520 actually do claim this permission in this space, and I 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:15.320 had someone asked me a question that I thought i'd 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.320 pass on to which I think is important a distinction 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.240 to make life is not easy, right. The good things 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.800 we do, like writing books, you know, our unicorn space, 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:28.159 or like you said, what Anna was going to do 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:31.720 creating the world, these things are not all cupcakes and rainbows. 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:34.600 There is a flow state experience, like this hour or 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:36.560 this thirty minutes with you is going to go in 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.560 a blink of an eye for me because I'm so 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:41.000 into listening to you and the flow state of it. 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.920 But there is rigor. And so tell me about how 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:50.160 effortlessness is different than saying, well, everything in my life 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:53.800 has to be easy, because I think that's a really 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:58.160 important distinction. Well, first of all, it's the number one 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:01.200 risk in writing a book called effortless is to be 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:05.080 misunderstood in that precise way. You don't write a book 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:09.520 called effortless because you think life is easy. You write 0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:14.000 a book called effortless because seriously, it is so so 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:18.880 hard for so many people. I wrote it in part 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.359 because of the most difficult experience of my whole life, 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:26.000 which was when my daughter suddenly went from the picture 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:31.560 of health to an undiagnosed and massive discombobulative neurological disease 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.200 that looked on the surface behaviorally something like her getting 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:39.520 Parkinson's disease and out in the midst of that quite 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:45.080 let's say, agonizing time. What I discovered, and was very 0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:48.200 surprised to discover, was that there were two paths to 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.840 any challenging situation. One is that you can make it 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.280 harder and heavier and more challenging. And the second is 0:22:55.359 --> 0:23:01.320 that there is a lighter, easier, more effortless, better, simpler 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:05.720 way to do life. And it really matters that you 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:09.399 discover the second path because if you don't discover them, 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:13.760 if we take the wrong path, will burn out ourselves. 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:18.679 Our relationships are family culture. Before we can help her, 0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:21.840 we don't know how long the journey is for us. 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:25.639 It was more than two years in all before she 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:28.199 was able to at least be treated for a diagnosis. 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:31.520 None of the tests ever actually showed a proper diagnosis, 0:23:31.600 --> 0:23:34.720 but she was treated for enseparitis information of the brain 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:40.080 and aggressively treated and eventually that seemed to completely work. 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:43.400 So she is back now. But if you burn out 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:48.159 before you achieve your mission, then you haven't achieved your mission. 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:50.720 And so when you don't how long something will take, 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:54.040 you've got to find this different pace, this different approach. 0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:56.119 And that's what gives me fire for the deed for 0:23:56.200 --> 0:24:00.480 this because I see so many people, so many people 0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:03.600 in their homes. They're doing the most important work of 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:07.080 their life, right, They're doing important work, but they're doing 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:15.080 it in a way that leads to over exertion, overthinking, perfectionism, exhaustion, burnout, 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:19.240 isolation in their burnout, and so all of this ends 0:24:19.359 --> 0:24:24.119 up stripping away the deeper reserves they have. And what 0:24:24.320 --> 0:24:26.440 kind of state are you in when you're trying to 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:29.080 build a home, when you're trying to build a family, 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:31.480