1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator. 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: And I'm doctor add In the Rucar, a physician and 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: medical correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 8 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: men's time as if it's diamonds, and to treat women's 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: time as if it's infinite like sands. And whether you 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: are partnered with or without children, or in a career 11 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: you for all family structures. We're here to take a 13 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 14 00:00:49,800 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: our time. High d D High Eve, It's good to 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: see your face and hear your voice. It's great to 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: see you. As always, we're in our little unicorn space together, 17 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: so thank you for that. You know, we're thinking and 18 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: talking about boundary setting right this idea of what is 19 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: it take to actually set a true boundary in one's life, 20 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: and if you're a marginalized population. If you're a woman, 21 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: it is harder to say no. I was thinking of 22 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: my friend when I said to her, you deserve a 23 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: permission to be unavailable from your roles as a parent 24 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: and our partner and our professional and by professional I 25 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: mean anybody who works her pay or works in the home. 26 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: And she said to me, but Eve, who would I 27 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: be if I wasn't available? That's how she defines herself. 28 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: And so I was thinking a lot about this time 29 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: in the early pandemic. I want to read you a 30 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: little bit about what I wrote about it in Unicorn Space, 31 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: my second book. I say that during that challenging time 32 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: when we just started to lock down, boundary setting became 33 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: a fast necessity and the interests of self preservation, and 34 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: I applauded many of my friends who boldly instituted clear 35 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: lines of their own and an effort to juggle jobs, partners, kids, pets, 36 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: and their sanity all under one roof. I relish their 37 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: videos of hiding out in their kitchen pantries or escaping 38 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: to their bedroom closets double locked the door. My friend 39 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: Blessing said, as I was having a hard time with 40 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: re establishing boundaries when we went to a work from 41 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: home or home from work blended life, where the boundaries 42 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: seemed to be so fluid, and they're not as easy 43 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: to set, at least not for me. I laughed at 44 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: the caution tape that leave me alone, boxes, the impossible 45 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: to confuse, do not enter, and mommy's on the time 46 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: out signs my friends posted. But I wanted to talk 47 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: about my struggle because I had converted a corner of 48 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: our guest room adity into a writing nook, and I 49 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: really hope to write uninterrupted for two hours over each weekend. 50 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: It seemed feasible, right. We had done fair play that way, 51 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: but now it was a different time again. Boundaries are 52 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: moving moving during the pandemic. So at breakfast one Sunday morning, 53 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,679 Speaker 1: I announced to Seth and Zach and Benanana, after we 54 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: finish up, I'm going to go work on my book 55 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 1: for two hours. I'll be home, but pretend I'm not home, right, 56 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: So they nodded in vague agreement, and once the table 57 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: was cleared, I retreated to the guest room. Well guess 58 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: what happened. It's not rocket science, you'll people, I guess. 59 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: Five minutes, there's a knock on the door. It was seth, Hey, 60 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: I know you're busy, but I just want to let 61 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: you know that I'm gonna need your car later to 62 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,119 Speaker 1: go pick up the groceries. Okay, cool, cool, okay. By 63 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: a few minutes later, Ben comes in, Um, mom, when 64 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna read my homework assignment? Later later, I say, 65 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,839 Speaker 1: I just you know, shut that door. Thirty seconds later, 66 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: Anna person with her loving passy. I want my mommy. 67 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: I want my mommy. So I kept thinking, you know, 68 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: good God, these walls are really freaking thin. So the 69 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: next week I tried again to communicate my boundary. I 70 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: explained I was taking two hours to write and I 71 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: was unavailable to answer questions, make snacks if you need something, 72 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: asked daddy, and to have her home. The point I 73 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: started to put an unavailable post it on my breast, 74 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 1: like on my boob, on top of my breasts, right 75 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: where they could see it at eye level, and I 76 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: said I am unavailable, showing Anna because she's a media 77 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: With the post it meant okay. So I go into 78 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: my office five minutes later, knock on the door. It 79 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: was seth again, Hey, I know you're unavailable, but no 80 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: butts I'm working, started screaming. Shut the door. A few 81 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: minutes later and it comes in again. She sucking a lollipop. 82 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: She comes up in my chair. She points at my 83 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: post it and then she whispers, I love you and 84 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 1: sort of licks my ear. Is very cute, but really disruptive, 85 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: and so I figured since she's not reading, she didn't 86 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: really understand, and she meant, okay, Well, interruptions are okay 87 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: as long as I lick your ear and they're delivered 88 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: with love if I interrupt you. So I had ten 89 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: minutes of solitude when finally Ben barges in. What is it? 90 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: I asked, and I'm starting to get really agitated, and 91 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: he looks at me, and he stands there and we're staring, 92 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: sort of an eye to eye contest, and he says, hey, mom, 93 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: your post it's falling off, and that was it. I 94 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: looked at him. I took the post it off my chest. 95 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: I crumble it up into a damn ball. I throw 96 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 1: it at him, and I say, get the funk out, Ben, 97 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: get out, get out, get out. I'm unavailable. I started 98 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: throwing stuff. I throw all the books off my death. 99 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: I drove my pens on the floor. I started smashing things, 100 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: stomping around, and then you know what, that two hours 101 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: I was unavailable. But all the guilt and shame of 102 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: having that rage blow up at my kids and cursing 103 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: it then and screaming and having to lock the door, 104 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: I just sat there and I just started to cry. 105 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 1: And it was too much. It was too much, I thought. 106 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: You know, I'm the person who's supposed to be an 107 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: expert at setting boundaries and I couldn't even set boundaries 108 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: of my own. You know, I laughed at many points 109 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: because it was just so relatable, But there's such deep 110 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: sadness there. You know what's so interesting about the story 111 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: and so many others during the pandemic is that saying 112 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,119 Speaker 1: no and having that sense of I need my time 113 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: is something that's biologic within us. But the actual saying that, 114 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: doing the orchestrating is very difficult because saying no is 115 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: also a socialized response. So basically you're saying, biologically, we 116 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: are programs to say no, of course, when something is uncomfortable, 117 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: or something is disturbing our inner peace or inner sanctity, 118 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: when we are high stressed, as you say, high stress, 119 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: low cognition, right in those moments when you just are focused. 120 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: During high stress mode, you need those two hours to 121 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: do your work and to focus. And during the pandemic, 122 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: when there is no time for yourself because your children 123 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: and partner and everyone is at home, those two hours 124 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: on the weekend we're very precious to you. So it 125 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: is a natural inclination during those periods of stress to 126 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: feel no. I need this space. That difficulty is translating 127 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: those feelings into words and actions, because saying no and 128 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: taking that step, there's a wide divide because that's all 129 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: the socialization process. So that's the discrepancy, and I think 130 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: that's always the conflict. There's a wide gap between feeling 131 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: no and saying no, and we need to figure out 132 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: ways to close the gap. But to be able to 133 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: say it and give ourselves permission requires a lot of education, research, 134 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: guidance systems, aligning external forces, and that allows us to 135 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: actually work on the doing of no rather than just 136 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: the feeling of no. I love that the doing of no, 137 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: So I think that's what we're talking about today. We're 138 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: talking about the doing of no, the feeling of no. 139 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: When you don't have a doing of no, a deity 140 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: is in my research, extreme rage and that is where 141 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: we're stuck a lot of the time. That the crumbling 142 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: up of the post it for me and throwing it 143 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: at Ben's head was a I feel like you said, Adity, 144 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: it's such a good way to look at this. I'm 145 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: feeling the no. It's bubbling up inside of me. It's 146 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: becoming a toxic bile inside of me. But I literally 147 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: feel like I have no control over the doing of no. 148 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: And this is the hard part. When I did do 149 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: the no through rage, it meant I couldn't actually do 150 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: the yes. I couldn't do the thing that I wanted 151 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: to do that day, which was right because instead, because 152 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: I had such a hard time with the doing of no, 153 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: it impeded those two hours. It wasn't a free two 154 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,839 Speaker 1: hours of uninterrupted attention because my attention and my insides 155 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: were stuck in the past hour of feeling that complete regret. 156 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: So I think it's this rage, resentment and regret cycle 157 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: that we stop when we actually can do no in 158 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: a productive way. And again people laugh. You have two 159 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: chapters on communication in a book about creativity. Find your 160 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: unicorn space, yes, because the doing of no is that hard. 161 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: So let's learn to say no. Today. I'm really excited 162 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: to explore these themes further with our guests today. He's 163 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: a good friend of mine, Greg McEwen. He's a public speaker, 164 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: a leadership and a business strategist. He's a New York 165 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: Times bestselling author of two of my favorite books. The 166 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: first one is Essentialism, The Disciplined Pursuit of Less, and 167 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: his new book Effortless, Making it Easier to Do what matters. 168 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: Most are books I think are must read. So he's 169 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: going to be joining us after the break to discuss 170 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: setting boundaries and how to say no. Here to discuss 171 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: setting boundaries and how to say No is Greg McEwen. Hi, Greg, 172 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: it's so nice to be with you. Thank you both 173 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: for having me. Well, we love your work and can't 174 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: you couldn't be more important now, I think as we 175 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: think about a return to our values, a return to 176 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: things that are important. So what is your work? How 177 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: would you describe your work for those who may not 178 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: know it? Can you describe Essentialism for us? Yes? My 179 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,319 Speaker 1: name is Greg mckewen, and I am the author of 180 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: two New York Times bestsellers. Essential is um The Discipline 181 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: Pursuit of Less, which is all about figuring out what 182 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: what is essential, eliminating everything that's not, so that you 183 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: can make it as effortless as possible to do what 184 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: is essential. And that's what my most recent book is 185 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 1: specifically about, is how to make it more effortless if 186 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: you have to combine both of them in a simple idea. 187 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: I think it's healthy productivity. And that doesn't sound that profound, perhaps, 188 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: but in a time of so much unhealthy productivity, it 189 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: seems to have struck a nerve. And it's really a 190 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: shame that these things are as relevant as they are, 191 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: because we want to find a better way, a different 192 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: way to do life. What I love about your work 193 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: so much is I always try to bring it into 194 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: the work of the home being the most important organization, 195 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: or as this one man said to me that I 196 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: think I told you about where he said, I mean 197 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: like the opposite of my home, where we wait to 198 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: decide who's taking the dog out right when it's about 199 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: to take a piss on the rug. And I said, exactly, 200 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: whatever that is. I want the opposite for you, just 201 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: that that thing, but the opposite. And I think where 202 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 1: your work intersects with adity in my work, and we're 203 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 1: burnout in wellness is I always like to say, you know, 204 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: I wish burnout now is as easy as taking a 205 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: walk around the block. Like you'll hear some of these 206 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: productivity experts say or carving out five minutes a day 207 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: for your meditation practice. But I really truly believe that 208 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: the antidote to burnout is being interested in your own life. 209 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: And when you are on a treadmill of milestones, you 210 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: can't be that way. So you you teach us how 211 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: to start thinking about what it is that we're truly 212 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: interested in. What does it mean to me an essentialist? 213 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: How do you return to that state if you're somebody 214 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: who is like my friend who's dying in decision fatigue 215 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: and waiting to take the dog out right when he's 216 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: about to take a piss on the road. Yeah, look, 217 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: I mean there there's a big clear difference between non 218 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: essentialists and essentialists. Non Essentialists think, do, and get very 219 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: different things. So what do they think? They think everything 220 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: is essential, everything is important, and so what that produces 221 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: is what Jim Collins is called the undisciplined pursuit of more, 222 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: where you're reacting to everything, you're living in your inbox 223 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: you're in a zoom, eat, sleep, repeat lifestyle. You're just 224 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: dealing with things when you cannot not deal with them, 225 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: and so this is a way to survive, but you're 226 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: not thriving in that, and it really is exhausting for 227 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: everyone involved to just be in a sort of slightly 228 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: panicked mode all the time. And so what you get 229 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: is unsatisfying results because you're not even sure if the 230 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: right things are getting done or not, and they're probably not. 231 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: Your to do list is longer at the end of 232 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: the day that it was at the beginning. You're stretched 233 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: too thin at work or at home or both, you 234 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: feel busy but not productive. Then then these things can 235 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: even get worse over time. And that's really what they've 236 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: been addressing more recently, is that people really are teaching 237 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: right on the edge of exhaustion. They want to get 238 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: to another level, but they lack the energy because this 239 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: has gone on for quite a while, and then eventually 240 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: everything feels like it's just harder than it needs to be. Right, 241 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: that's the non essential list story. The essentialist is different 242 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: to all of that. The essentialist thinks, does and gets 243 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: really different things. They think almost everything is non essential 244 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: and a few things only are essential. So it's almost 245 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: the opposite mindset. And so as soon as you believe 246 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: that that there's just a few things that are vital 247 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: and almost everything is trivial. As Maxwell put it, it's 248 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: difficult to overstate the unimportance of practically everything. Once you 249 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: adopt that idea, then your behavior naturally shifts because you 250 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: start to say, well, I've got to explore what's essential. 251 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: Then I have to find out what really matters and 252 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: discern between all of these things coming at me. I 253 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 1: need to eliminate the non essential things, even if they 254 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: feel like it's all just pressure or the fomo because 255 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: of the people are doing it, and I have to 256 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: get rid of that stuff as much as I possibly can. 257 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: And then I need build systems. I know that's one 258 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: of your favorite words, and I love that word. To 259 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: make it as easy as possible to do what's essential, 260 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: so that in the best case scenario, these things happen 261 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: even if we aren't thinking about them. I mean, that's 262 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: the ultimate situation. That the systems and rituals of our 263 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: lives work. So whether you're sleeping, these things happen, whether 264 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: you're consciously thinking about them or not. They are happening, 265 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: and the result of that is a life that satisfied, 266 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: a life that really means something, and a sense of 267 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: like they're the right things are getting done and so 268 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: that you can have more joy in the journey. Now 269 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: that's the contrast. You know, in full disclosure, I've spent 270 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: plenty of my life in the first column, and even 271 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: on a day to day basis, I find myself jumping 272 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: between these things. So I struggle with this. I'm in 273 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: the wrestle with everybody else, but it's still helpful to 274 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: me to think of this contrast, to notice when I'm 275 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: in the first so that I can make decisions by 276 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: designed to get into the second. Make decisions by design. 277 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,479 Speaker 1: Can I just say that three times? I think if 278 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: we had to distill what this podcast is about for 279 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: the home, it's making decisions by design so that you're 280 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: not reactive. So I'm going to turn it over to 281 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: a d d who's also an expert in wellness from 282 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: a medical field, and she has a couple of questions 283 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: for you. Greg. So you've kind of laid out the 284 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: difference between non essentialism and essentialism. So in eaves work, 285 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: it's this idea of giving ourselves permission. So for those 286 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: of us who might be living in the non essential mindset, 287 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: to get to that essential is m that's a big leap. 288 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: But we have to almost like give ourselves permission to 289 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: get there, to stay there. Can you talk to us 290 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: a little bit more about that? How do we do that? 291 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: How do we take that first step? First of all, 292 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: you know, read Eve's book. That seems like a good stunt. 293 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: This is non trivial right to to find kind of 294 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: unicorn space in our lives. I know from personal experience, 295 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: and Anna, my wife, is one of the most discerning 296 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: people in my life, but still struggles with this because 297 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: the responsibilities are so high, because she has so many 298 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: important things that she's taking seriously that carving out space 299 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: two formally work on something for her, something that she 300 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: wants to pursue and create, doesn't just happen. That is 301 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: never going to happen anymore in the world, as noisy 302 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: as it is, if you just take the path of 303 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: least resistance, if you just go with the cultural norms, 304 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: it is not going to happen. It will be consumed 305 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: with social media, with running children, places, with any number 306 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: of other activities, and so where do we start on 307 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: this here. Here are a few tactics I think people 308 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: should start with. One is to immediately look at the 309 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: next month of your life and blocking out time. Anything 310 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: that's not already blocked, you block it. You make an appointment, 311 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: a meeting with yourself. We managed to make two meetings 312 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: of all sorts of things. We managed to be on 313 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: zoom appointments all sorts of times. So this is scheduling 314 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: time for yourself. You have to create this space because 315 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: it won't just exist. And maybe a few years ago 316 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: it would have just existed. You're late for a plane, 317 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: or you're or you're waiting to pick someone up and 318 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: they're not quite there and you just have to wait. 319 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 1: And the upside of that is that the space to think. 320 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: But now the moment that you could have thought or 321 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: imagined or explored your life, you just check your phone 322 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: and you're into all of these other habits. So I 323 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: think blocking out time ahead is one thing that you 324 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: can do. I think a second thing that people can do, 325 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: and this is like a microburst. So you say ten minutes, 326 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: I am going to set time for ten minutes. That's fine, 327 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: and I'm going to make my done for the day 328 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: list that is a thoughtful list that the criteria has 329 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: done for the day, meaning whence I'm done with this list, 330 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: I'm really done. I'm not going to do any sneaky 331 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: work after that. This is the work of my day, 332 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: and then I'm going to move into relaxation recuperation activities. 333 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: And so the done for the day list is a 334 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: prioritized list, but it's one that has a boundary to it. 335 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: And I will say I think I've done it, maybe 336 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: four out of the last five days, and the day 337 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: I didn't, you have a different experience. You feel more 338 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,479 Speaker 1: in control, more deliberate, more thoughtful. To use the essentialist language, 339 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: it's a disciplined pursuit of less and you get to 340 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: the end of the day and you feel more sure 341 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: as you're lying there in bed that the most important 342 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: things did get done, and you also didn't just keep 343 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: going as if you're a machine. Where biological creatures we 344 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: work in rhythms, and we shouldn't be treating ourselves like 345 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: compusers or like factories. I have a followed quite into that, 346 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: which is your second book is so important because it's 347 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: really about figuring out what to fill with if we 348 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: actually do claim this permission in this space, and I 349 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: had someone asked me a question that I thought i'd 350 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: pass on to which I think is important a distinction 351 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: to make life is not easy, right. The good things 352 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: we do, like writing books, you know, our unicorn space, 353 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: or like you said, what Anna was going to do 354 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: creating the world, these things are not all cupcakes and rainbows. 355 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: There is a flow state experience, like this hour or 356 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: this thirty minutes with you is going to go in 357 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: a blink of an eye for me because I'm so 358 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: into listening to you and the flow state of it. 359 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: But there is rigor. And so tell me about how 360 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: effortlessness is different than saying, well, everything in my life 361 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: has to be easy, because I think that's a really 362 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: important distinction. Well, first of all, it's the number one 363 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: risk in writing a book called effortless is to be 364 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: misunderstood in that precise way. You don't write a book 365 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: called effortless because you think life is easy. You write 366 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: a book called effortless because seriously, it is so so 367 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 1: hard for so many people. I wrote it in part 368 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: because of the most difficult experience of my whole life, 369 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: which was when my daughter suddenly went from the picture 370 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: of health to an undiagnosed and massive discombobulative neurological disease 371 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: that looked on the surface behaviorally something like her getting 372 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: Parkinson's disease and out in the midst of that quite 373 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: let's say, agonizing time. What I discovered, and was very 374 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: surprised to discover, was that there were two paths to 375 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: any challenging situation. One is that you can make it 376 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: harder and heavier and more challenging. And the second is 377 00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: that there is a lighter, easier, more effortless, better, simpler 378 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: way to do life. And it really matters that you 379 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: discover the second path because if you don't discover them, 380 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: if we take the wrong path, will burn out ourselves. 381 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 1: Our relationships are family culture. Before we can help her, 382 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: we don't know how long the journey is for us. 383 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: It was more than two years in all before she 384 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 1: was able to at least be treated for a diagnosis. 385 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: None of the tests ever actually showed a proper diagnosis, 386 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: but she was treated for enseparitis information of the brain 387 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 1: and aggressively treated and eventually that seemed to completely work. 388 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: So she is back now. But if you burn out 389 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: before you achieve your mission, then you haven't achieved your mission. 390 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: And so when you don't how long something will take, 391 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: you've got to find this different pace, this different approach. 392 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 1: And that's what gives me fire for the deed for 393 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: this because I see so many people, so many people 394 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: in their homes. They're doing the most important work of 395 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: their life, right, They're doing important work, but they're doing 396 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: it in a way that leads to over exertion, overthinking, perfectionism, exhaustion, burnout, 397 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: isolation in their burnout, and so all of this ends 398 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: up stripping away the deeper reserves they have. And what 399 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: kind of state are you in when you're trying to 400 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: build a home, when you're trying to build a family, 401 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: when you're trying to build a contribution in the community, 402 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: And what do you have to give if that's your 403 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: approach to life? And I'm afraid that there's that there's 404 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: there's very very many people who I think can relate 405 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: to what I'm describing. There are seemed to be able to. 406 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: And so so that's the reason that's why to write 407 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 1: this book, that's why it's worth doing, not because life 408 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: is easy, but because it's so hard. You have to 409 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: find an easier path to be able to survive or 410 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: have a prayer of driving through it. Part of your 411 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: work that I love is how you teach people how 412 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: to say no. And you say that saying no is 413 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: like a skill and it's something that we can practice. 414 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: You start small, you build it up over time, and 415 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: it may be one of the most useful skills you 416 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: ever developed. By saying no to things that aren't really meaningful, 417 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: we actually have the space and energy to concentrate on 418 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: the things that are. And you lay out three steps 419 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: really beautifully about how to say no. And one of 420 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: my favorite pieces of writing by you is a piece 421 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: called if you don't prioritize your life, someone else will 422 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: talk to us a little bit more about this idea 423 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: of consciously making a change and designing your life, and 424 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: how we can learn to say no to then be 425 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: better to say yes to all the things we want 426 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: to say yes to. Let's begin with a bold number 427 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: one rule non essentials and has premised on a lie. 428 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: There's here's what the lie is. It says if you 429 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,479 Speaker 1: can do it or you can have it all m hm. 430 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: And here's the problem with that. In a world where 431 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: choices and options have gone up and continue to go 432 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: exponentially right ever since the internet existed. The options are 433 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: beyond comprehension. So, in a state of endless possibilities, can 434 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: you do it all? If it is such a nonsense, 435 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it doesn't mean anything. And then let's 436 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: say you could do it all, or you could try 437 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: to do it all? Will it lead you to getting 438 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: it all? Is that what happens to people? If this 439 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: doesn't live up to what it says on the packaging, 440 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: it's a bill of goods. We've been conned, and so 441 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: our job is to get out of the con is 442 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: to not participate in the lie. You don't have to 443 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: tell everybody else off, you just have to not participate 444 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: in the lie yourself. The world is a world of 445 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: trade offs. Every single time you say yes to something, 446 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: every yes is no to a thousand things. You're saying 447 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: no to every other possible thing you could be doing. 448 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 1: So actually we are all saying no all the time, 449 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: which is not using that word. So what we're really 450 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: talking about here is not starting to say no to 451 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: everyone and everything without really thinking about it, but it 452 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: is to say yes cautiously and carefully and in a 453 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: disciplined way. So that we can be sure that when 454 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: we say yes, we can really do it without resentment, 455 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: that we can do it and feel good about it afterwards. Well, 456 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: thank you for sharing your vulnerability with the world. You're 457 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: one of my most profound teachers. But I appreciate your 458 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: vulnerability and your wisdom and Effortless is really a vulnerable book. 459 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: You know, you you do talk about your personal experiences, 460 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: and so that sort of takes us full circle. That 461 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: is unicorns base, right, that curiosity about something, that connection 462 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: with your listeners or readers, and then the completion. You 463 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: actually had to complete the book. So thank you. Thank 464 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: you for completing it and putting on in the world. 465 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: And usually we like to end with just where can 466 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: people find more of you as you iterate and continue 467 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: to create. There's only one thing I'd suggest with people 468 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: on that, and it's just a free news letter. It's 469 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: called the One Minute Wednesday. It's very simple thing. It's 470 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: not profound. Some of the say's profound, it's just microadjustments 471 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: people can make in one minute or less. So you 472 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: just go to Greg McEwen dot com and you can 473 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: sign up for that's the best. I always look forward 474 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: to it. I am subscribing today. I love it, I 475 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: love it. I love one minute Wednesday. I look forward 476 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: to it. Marvelous. What a pleasure to be with you both. 477 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. Hi, It's me Eve. 478 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 1: Are you a therapist, counselor coach or nutritionists that has 479 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: thought about introducing the fair Play System directly to your clients, Well, 480 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: now you can come and roll in the fair Play Method, 481 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: a new online program that provides you with hands on training, 482 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: a ton of valuable resources, and a community of certified 483 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,719 Speaker 1: professionals who are all part of a greater cultural movement 484 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 1: for systemic change. Learn more about how you can help 485 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: your clients shift the domestic workload in their own homes 486 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: towards more equity, more fairness, and greater connectivity. Visit fair 487 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: Play method dot com. So, as you may know, now, 488 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: every episode of this podcast ends with an action item 489 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: for you are listeners that we call a time out. 490 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: This is really a time for you to focus on 491 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: yourself and reflect on what you're hearing today. You know, So, Eve, 492 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: as we've been talking about all of this, I think 493 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: and reflect upon my own journey in learning how to 494 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: say no, moving from the feeling of no to the 495 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: doing of no. And for many of us and many 496 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: of our listeners, learning to say no is scary and 497 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: hard and foreign because it is ultimately a skill and 498 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: something that we have to practice over and over again. 499 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: When it comes to the brain. The more we use 500 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: certain neural pathways, the stronger they become. We know that 501 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: saying no is a practice, and so for this week, 502 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: I would love for you to share with our listeners 503 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: how to start saying no using all of the tools 504 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: we've learned from prior episodes. I'll circle back to the 505 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: story that we began with. I remember the next Sunday 506 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: d D after those two disastrous Sundays where my time 507 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: kept getting erased by all those interruptions, Because I do 508 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: think the biggest superpower that all of us can have 509 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: when we set a boundary is attention that we get 510 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: attention back. Attention is our weapon, and so if we 511 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: look at protecting and saying no as a boundary to 512 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: guard our attention, that's very, very powerful. So I remember 513 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: the next Sunday, I went to my family around sort 514 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: of the breakfast area they're grabbing cereal, and said, I 515 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: want to try something new today that helps us get 516 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: what we all want without the yelling and the tears. 517 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: So I paused and I locked eyes with each of them. 518 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: I was calm adity, emotion was low, cognition was high, 519 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: and I said, I'd written this down. I love you. 520 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: I want you to feel seen and hurt in this house. 521 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: I want to feel heard and respected to So you 522 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,719 Speaker 1: see how this is a communication skill. Before we can 523 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: the doing of no is a communication practice. I'm asking 524 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: all of you for two full hours this morning to 525 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: write in my office. This time is very important to me. 526 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: It allows me to use my voice for what I value. 527 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: That goes to our y and our value setting, which 528 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: means that I have so much more to give you 529 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 1: when I'm done. While I'm writing, Daddy's here to help 530 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: you with whatever you need. Seth of course, affirmed that, 531 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: and then I resumed and said, look, in a couple 532 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: of hours, I'm going to be a available to you all, 533 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: but until then, please respect my time and space. Okay. 534 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: So they all mumbled okay, and then I said, okay, 535 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: let me even go a little deeper into my communication style, 536 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: and I said, to the kids, think of it this way. 537 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: If we reserved a private room at a trampoline park 538 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: for your birthday party. And just as we were cutting 539 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: the cake, another group of kids burst through the door, 540 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: demanding cake and proclaiming it was their party room. You'd 541 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: be upset right because it wasn't their turn yet. Anna 542 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: of course said that's not fair, and she was pounding 543 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: her A small little baby adds on the table and 544 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: I said, you know what, that's my point. It's not fair, 545 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: so don't crash my party. And it was this thank 546 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: you for respecting my space and time firmness that I 547 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: was able to start to practice because communication, as we said, 548 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: is our most important practice. So when you think about 549 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: being able to get there to a place where you 550 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: want to protect your boundaries so much, we have a 551 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: time out exercise as a reframe for you today. So 552 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: while mine starting with fair Play through my second book 553 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: was this writing time, I want all of you out 554 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: there to picture your week, and one day a week, 555 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: at least one day a week, when you answer the 556 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: question that Greg McHugh and likes to ask, what is 557 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: the most important thing you will do that day? Let's 558 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 1: put a time out spin on it. What is the 559 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: most important thing you do that day? You have to 560 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: answer that question once a week outside of your roles 561 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: as a partner and our parent and our professional. So 562 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: what do I mean by that that Sunday? Don't crash 563 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: my party Sunday. The most important thing I did that 564 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: day was right a chapter in my book. Doesn't mean 565 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 1: I don't love hanging out my kids or being with Seth, 566 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: but that was the most important thing I had done 567 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: that day. Today, the most important thing I'll do today 568 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: is be with you. Add So that's this week's time 569 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,839 Speaker 1: Out and next week we're going to help you stop 570 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: feeling guilty Permission to burn guilt and shame with Dr 571 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: Cheryl Gonzale Ziegler. It's a great conversation, so tune in 572 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: to learn from Cheryl, who's taught me so much about 573 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: how to reframe guilt and shame. Thank you for listening 574 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: to Time Out, a production of I Heart Podcasts and 575 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine. I'm Ev Rodsky, author of the New York 576 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: Times bestseller fair Play and find your Unicorn Space. Follow 577 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: me on social media at Eve Rodsky and learn more 578 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: about our work at fair Play Life. And I'm Dr 579 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: Addi Narukar, a Harvard physician with a specialty and stress resilience, 580 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: burnout in mental health. Follow me on social media at 581 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: dr add Narucar and find out more about my work 582 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: at dr add dot com. That's d R A d 583 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 1: I t I dot com. Our Hell of Sunshine team 584 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: is Amanda Farren, Aaron Stover, and Jennifer Yonker. Our I 585 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: Heart Media team is Ali Perry, Jennifer Bassett, and Jessica Krinschitch. 586 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,359 Speaker 1: We hope you all love taking a much needed time 587 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: out with us today. Listen and subscribe to Time Out 588 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 589 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: you get your favorite show