WEBVTT - #209 Jason Flom with Ronnie Long 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.040 Since our initial release of Rodney Long's story, there have 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.120 been some incredible developments, and this is a re release 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:12.800 of that story with new content outlining the great news. 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:15.960 At around nine forty five on the night of April 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:19.239 twenty fifth, nineteen seventy six, the fifty four year old 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:21.680 widow of a Cannon Mills executive was at her home 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:25.400 and Conquered, North Carolina when a man grabbed her from behind. 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:28.960 She fought him, scratching her attackers so hard that her 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:33.800 nails bent backwards, but ultimately he overpowered and raped her. 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.520 She described her assailant as a light skinned black man 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.520 with no mention of facial hair, wearing a dark leather 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.880 coat and a beanie hat. A rape kit was done 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:49.720 and the police carefully collected a mountain of forensic evidence. Meanwhile, 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.360 across town, nineteen year old Ronnie Long was at home 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:54.800 with his mother, on the phone with the mother of 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:58.040 his own two year old son till ten PM. A 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.880 few days later, Ronnie received court summons for trespassing in 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:04.880 a park after hours. He was wearing a dark leather 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.959 coat at the time. Police would ask the rape victim 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.480 to be present in court to see if her attacker 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:13.440 was present on the day Ronnie, the owner of a 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:18.680 dark leather coat, was scheduled to appear disguised. She sat 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:21.880 in the gallery for two hours in Ronnie's presence, only 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:25.039 to identify him as her attacker when his name was called. 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.679 The state would present a case without any of the 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:33.759 collected forensic or biological evidence, solely resting their case upon 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:40.000 this extremely unorthodox and totally unreliable cross racial identification and 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.920 Ronnie's unscratched leather coat. For that, Ronnie has been in 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:50.520 prison for forty four years. This is wrongful conviction with 0:01:50.680 --> 0:02:07.520 Jason Flatta, Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's case Will 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:12.760 It's going to upset you. I'm going to tell you 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.800 right now this is a grotesque injustice that was inflicted 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.720 and is still being inflicted on an amazing man named 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:24.440 Ronnie Long. And we're hoping to hear from Ronnie during 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:28.040 the recording. He'll be calling in from prison where he 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:33.440 has been since nineteen seventy six for a crime he 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:37.240 didn't commit. In this time of COVID, there's all sorts 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.200 of complications, so we're going to try to make it 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:46.200 work with us now as well. Is Jamie Lao Jamie 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:51.160 is an attorney at Duke University's Wrongful Convictions Clinic. And Jamie, 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:53.200 thank you for joining us on the show. 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:54.520 Thank you for having me. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.320 I'm going to do something unusual here. I actually want 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.680 to start at the end. We almost know ever do that. 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.560 But there's a quote from a judge named James Wynn, 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.360 who's a circuit court judge in the fourth District Court. 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:14.720 So this is a serious guy. And Judge Wynn said, 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:20.120 and I quote, prosecutors clearly had evidence that any defense 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:24.520 council in the world, not only in nineteen seventy six, 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:28.680 but in the history of this country would have wanted 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:33.000 or needed, and which should have been supplied, and yet 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.920 we did not provide it. He goes on to say, 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:41.000 what is it about us that we want to prosecute 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.880 and keep people in jail when we know evidence may 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:49.320 exist that might lead to a different conclusion. Why is 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.160 that so offensive to us now that we want to 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:57.440 protect illegal activity from forty four years ago? What's the 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:01.360 harm of looking at the new evidence? He said? When 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:05.600 did justice leave the process? So we let our rules 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:11.040 blind us to what we all can see. Wow. 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:17.159 Well, during the course of argument, it made us optimistic 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:21.000 that after forty four years, an end may be near 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:25.200 to the injustice that occurred in Ronnie's case. It's been 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:30.160 an incredible difficult journey through the courts to get his 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.279 case to where it was. On May seventh of this year, 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.000 you said we'll start at the end, and the end 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:38.400 at this point in time was an argument on May 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:42.520 seventh in front of the full Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:46.920 which is fifteen active judges all have been appointed by 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:52.479 a President judge when was making that quote in response 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.680 to arguments from the State of North Carolina that more 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.479 or less was asking the court to disregard all the 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.640 evidence that is now known about in this case that 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:05.560 was hid from Ronnie at the time of his trial 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.760 in nineteen seventy six. And Judge Winn also discussed sort 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.560 of the circumstances of nineteen seventy six and the conditions 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.520 of black mails, particularly in the South in nineteen seventy six, 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:21.440 and how they were wrongfully convicted in great numbers. So 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:26.919 at the moment Judge Wynn offered his viewpoints during the 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.320 course of the stakes argument, we knew that we had 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:35.400 succeeded in conveying to the court, the seriousness and the 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.960 magnitude of the injustice that occurred in Ronnie's case. 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.080 As promised, we got a phone call from Ronnie, and 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.159 I must warn you that there was a poor connection 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.520 with the prison. So Ronnie's a little hard to hear. 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.919 But what he has to say needs to be heard, 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:50.800 so please bear with us. 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.479 You have a pre paid call. You will not be 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.720 charged for this call. This call is from an inmate 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:04.800 Albemarle Correctional Institution. This call will be monitored and recorded. 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.120 To accept this call, Prince, I've now to decline this 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.360 call hang out. Thank you for using Global tail link. 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.599 Hello, Hi Ronnie, thanks for calling me. I know we 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.159 have limited time, so let's get right into it now. 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.080 You grew up and conquered North Carolina, right, seven brothers 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.160 and sisters. Can you tell me a little bit about 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.160 your life before all of this horrible stuff happened. 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:30.080 I played sports when I was in high school. Right 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.560 wait to call for I learned how to link with 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:36.160 such songs. That's kind of of work I was doing 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:38.480 with my dad. I'll go to work with him sometime, 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:42.000 take money with him. I had a son. I spent 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:47.760 a lot of time with my sons to cool in 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:51.920 the game the game when I never streeted with three. 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.760 Now I read about this one time before you had 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.200 your son, way before the incident that lands you in prison, 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:00.360 there was an encounter that you once had with some 0:07:00.480 --> 0:07:03.719 police officers. They they pulled up on you, harassed you 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:05.839 a bit, hey, you know what you're doing around here? 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:09.400 Boy type of thing, and you responded, isn't this America? 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:11.920 All night? I free to walk on this sidewalk? 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:14.920 That right, I was coming from a girl hell. I 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.720 was coming from a girl house one night. The area 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:23.480 that I was in, it was only this. I was 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.080 coming home one night. The two white couple pull up 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:30.200 behind me. That were you coming from? What are you 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:35.280 doing in this area here? Did you walk home side here? 0:07:36.080 --> 0:07:40.720 They took me, took me downtown for me in a room. 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.800 I stated a gave up too loud, but also came up, 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.600 told me to go, you can leave. I just gotta 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:49.040 walk up, went home. 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:53.400 And that's it seems to be how he got to 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:57.320 be on the radar of the local authorities. And then 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.440 on the Faithful Day of Sunday, a twenty fifth, nineteen 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:06.760 seventy six, at around nine forty five pm, a wealthy, white, 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.080 fifty four year old widow of a Cannon Mills executive 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:15.200 was burglarized and raped an awful, awful crime, and Canon 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:17.400 Mills was a major employer in the area, and that 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:19.840 name's going to come to play a big role in this. 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.400 In this story, the victim said that while she was 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:27.280 preparing food for a beach trip the following day, a 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.760 black man snuck into her home and grabbed her from behind. 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.760 She said the intruder told her that he only had 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:36.040 fifteen minutes as his friends were waiting for him outside 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.960 like a horror movie, and he proceeded to rape her. 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.200 She later described her attacker as a quote yellow looking 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.160 and quote again not blue black, maybe wearing gloves, a 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.680 beanie hat, no mention of any facial hair, and a 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.560 dark leather coat. She also described the violent struggle where 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:56.200 she scratched her attacker so hard that her fingernails bent backward, 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.760 which would definitely have left the mark on that leather coat. 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.360 The victim said that whenever she tried to move, he 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.720 would slam her head against the ground. Then the phone rang, 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.600 startling the attacker, who gathered his things and left through 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.160 the front door. The victim then rushed over to her 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:16.480 neighbors naked, where she was able to call the police, 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:20.600 and they arrived around ten pm. The victim has since 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:24.719 passed away, but that being said, she was rushed to 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:27.679 the hospital for a rape kit and the doctor performed 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.880 all the tests and collected all the biological evidence and 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:38.240 everything else. What happened next is that Detective Eisenhower of 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.840 the Concord Police Department arrived at the victim's home around 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.320 ten thirty. He photographed the house and began collecting evidence, 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:50.800 including latent fingerprints, carpet samples, suspect hair paint samples, as 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:54.600 well as pieces of the victim's clothing and partially burned matches, 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.280 and he later brought them to the State Bureau of 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:02.040 Investigation office at Raleigh for examination. He also lifted a 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:05.080 latent shoe print from a column near the porch. Now 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:09.839 this is important. Later has nothing but the shoe print 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.920 was ever discussed at trial. And before we go any further, 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:17.880 we need to state clearly that Ronnie had a solid alibi. 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:22.480 And remember the crime took place at nine five. Ronnie, 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:24.480 at around nine thirty, you were at home with your 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:26.440 mother waiting on your father to get back with the 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.040 car so you could head out to a party in Charlotte. 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:31.720 You were on the phone with the mother of your child. 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.480 Your mom hopped on the phone a few times to 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:35.760 say hello to her grandson. 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.840 Right, Yeah, he on the phone too, but you can't 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:41.760 all I understand what he's saying when he was trying 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.439 to talk. He on the phone to my mom was 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:48.000 on the phone, on the phone. I'm up on the 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.800 phone and I'm waiting on my dad to come back 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:59.520 with the card. One on to a party and shower. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.679 So Jamie, can you take us back to how Ronnie 0:11:03.720 --> 0:11:06.080 came to be implicated in it and how he could 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:11.240 have possibly been convicted in spite of no evidence at all, 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:12.120 none zero. 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:16.800 Yeah. Ronnie, very much like other young black men in 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.719 nineteen seventy six and still today, was harassed by law 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:25.840 enforcement officers. That harassment directly led to what ultimately becomes 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:30.440 this forty four year old wrongful conviction. On April twenty fifth, 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.120 the victim is assaulted and raped in her home. A 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.160 few days after that, Ronnie receives a trespassing charge at 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:41.560 the local park that was adjacent to his home when 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.560 he shouldn't have been there, and during that time, it 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.360 appears that he was observed wearing a black leather coat. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:52.400 The officer who stopped him recalled that the person who 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.360 was described by the victim had been wearing a dark 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.800 leather coat on the night of April twenty fifth when 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.920 she gave a description to law enforcement, and despite Ronnie 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:06.520 not matching other very prominent features that were included in 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.800 her description, the officer decided that perhaps he was the 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.120 individual who had assaulted the victim. I mean it was 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:17.679 significant the disparities between her description of her assailant and Ronnie. 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:22.280 She described her assailant as a yellow black male. In 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:24.440 the South at the time, to describe somebody as a 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:28.120 yellow black male meant a light skinned black person of 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.400 mixed origin. She never mentioned her assailant having facial hair. 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.960 Ronnie had facial hair, and disputed that he had facial 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.320 hair on April twenty fifth, nineteen seventy six, when she 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:44.400 was assaulted. So despite him having a different complexion having 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:48.000 facial hair, where she never described facial hair, he becomes 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.679 a suspect. Officers then go to her home and says, 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:56.040 we have reason to believe that the individual who had 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.880 assaulted you will be in the courtroom on this date 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:04.200 fifteen days later, May tenth, nineteen seventy six, and we'd 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.679 like you to come down to the courtroom to see 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.200 if you can identify the person who attacked you there. 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.440 So immediately in her mind she thinks they've done some 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:17.320 investigation and have identified a likely suspect. But all they 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.800 had done is made the connect to the fact that 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.680 Ronnie had a black leather coat similar to what she described. 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:29.080 The real curious thing with respect to law enforcement asking 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.719 the victim to go to the courthouse to try and 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.640 make an identification is they had a picture of long 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:36.800 that they could have shown her when they went to 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:38.560 her and asked her to come to the courthouse, And 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:41.120 they could have did it in a fair procedure, or 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:45.400 as fair as these identification procedures can be, with the 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.440 inclusion of fillers to ensure that she's selecting him from 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.880 memory and not because he looks most like the attacker 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:55.839 or because she's being presented a suspect in a very 0:13:55.840 --> 0:14:00.480 suggestive way. They elected to forego that. So she's the 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:05.439 courthouse dressed in a disguise because she's fearful that if 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:09.560 her attacker was there, he'd recognize her. She describes during 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:14.439 her testimony being terrified. She sits in the courtroom for 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.960 an hour and a half Inglong's presence and fails to 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:22.920 identify him. And only when his name is called and 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:26.080 he walks up to resolve the trespassing charge, which was 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:30.680 dismissed that day, did she say he's the one. But 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.960 it's telling because we later learned during her testimony at 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.320 trial that there were only twelve black males in the courtroom. 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.640 She quickly eliminated several of them because they had afros 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.160 where they were older. She described one as being old 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:46.640 and hunched over, and she says that he was the 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:50.360 only one that looked remotely similar to her attacker. And 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:56.680 identification evidence is already flawed and highly unreliable, but here 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.840 you can just take her words that she's just picking 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:02.960 the person looks most likely to be her attacker that's 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.440 president in the courtroom, so she can end the experience 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:10.280 where she's traumatized and terrified, so that in essence becomes 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.080 the only evidence against law. And here we are, forty 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.880 four years later, trying to undo that identification. 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.120 And I'm glad you brought that up, Jamie, because we 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:24.480 know the most unreliable eyewitness identification is cross racial. This 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:29.720 fits exactly into that category, and then, of course there's 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.960 still room for it to get worse. So Ronnie, take 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:34.920 us back to the day that you were in court 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.800 for the misdemeanor trespassing charge, when you had no idea. 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:41.080 You couldn't have had any idea that there was a 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.280 rape victim in the gallery who was being led to 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.760 believe that her attacker was in the courtroom that day. 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.800 And the craziest thing is that you two were in 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:55.080 each other's presence for nearly two hours before she idd you. 0:15:55.080 --> 0:16:01.520 Right, yeah, there, misdemeanors just passed downtown. Now, I'm sitting 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.600 there for nine o'clock. When she called my name, I 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:07.440 stood up and we walked down front of me and 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:10.520 my dad. This is when the police said. This is 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:13.640 when they say that she had the same two detectives 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.200 that was on this case, that been on this cape 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:17.240 the whole time they were sitting in the Cury Fox. 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.200 She testified that it was it got me twelve black 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:27.600 in the courtroom. He's not any people in here looking 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.720 like me. She's supposed to be looking far a young 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:36.000 black man that assaulted her but she distinctly stated she's 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.320 looked around and looked around and looked around into the 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:42.840 trans trip, and I didn't see nobody. I want you, 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:44.920 I want you to think about this. She said. She 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:46.720 sitting in the courtroom man for over an hour and 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:48.640 a half, looking around, and she never didn't see anyone. 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:51.720 The people. Why she didn't see anyone else said because 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.440 of this special that she gave the police for the 0:16:54.520 --> 0:17:00.920 light skinned black man with no hound in the face. I'm 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:02.920 sitting up in there, and you understanding saying God's skin 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:05.520 would hang on my favor, So I didn't ask another 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:07.719 the description. You understudstand that she was looking for her. 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.680 That's why I come. She couldn't pick me out, but 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:12.800 she picked me out. Here, says say, when they called 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.160 my name and run along, go to the front, run along. 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.399 If you ain't court I said, yeah, we come down front. 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.639 That's why she said she recognized. She ain't recognized me. 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.399 She's recognized my name. You go, number one, How are 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.159 you gonna sit in the courtroom ere stairs for a 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.000 whole hour and a half. Ain't eleven it ain't but 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:30.440 twelve blacks in them? You gonna sitting there for a 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:32.200 whole hour and a half. You don't see this young 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.280 black man that you're looking for. The reason you don't 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.480 see it because she's not Yeah, he got, he got 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:42.399 on his face. The court asked this woman, could the 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:47.119 police department got told you to pick run alone? She said, 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:53.160 they could have. I don't know. That's in the transition. 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:55.520 They could have. 0:17:56.000 --> 0:18:05.639 I don't know. The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.320 of this episode of Rafel Convision with Jason Flahm, and 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.960 of the Last Mile organization, which provides business and tech 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:17.000 training to help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re enter 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:20.280 the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving the 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:24.520 lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations that are dedicated 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.680 primarily to helping young people and students. For more information 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.800 on the work of the Pacers Foundation or the Last 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:35.720 Mile program, please visit Pacers Foundation dot org or the 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:43.160 Lastmile dot org. This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss, Rifkin, 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:47.320 Orton and Garrison, a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:51.080 has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.000 bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:58.159 society and in support of the public interest, including extensive 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:08.080 work in the criminal justice area. So the victim makes 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:12.320 this shaky identification, tells the detectives, but you've got no 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.120 idea that any of this is going on. You're there 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.679 for this misdemeanor charge, which gets dismissed, and then you 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:21.680 go home. But that was not the last you'd see 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.040 of law enforcement that day. 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:31.320 Went home with thee I'll wake up a few whiles later, 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:32.280 my mom Jelly. 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:39.199 When Ronnie was picked up, he was not told that 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:44.199 he was suspected of this raid. Instead, he arrived at 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:46.560 the station at six forty five pm, was read as 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:49.960 rights and the police claimed that they asked permission to 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:53.800 search his car, but they hadn't, and then they testified 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:58.320 to finding gloves, matchbooks, and a beanie in the car. 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:01.359 Ronnie maintains that the gloves or head but the beamie 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:01.840 was not. 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:06.480 I followed the police downtown. I used to drive with 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:08.719 gloves on, but when I get out of the car, 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.200 I take my gloves off. I speak of my home, 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:15.280 my son's value. I tried the car, I locked the door, 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.800 I got on the black the other jacket. Yeah, I'll 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.080 go up there, they kill me. I'm a suspecting a 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:25.320 rapron kay, I'll take my keys up. They take my 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.600 keys up the front out of the door with the 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.520 same to the ticket that was in the courtroom that morning. Yo, man, 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:33.600 without going with my keys, bring my keys back. 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:33.880 Kill. 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:36.200 They're just going to look in your car. You ain't 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.560 got nothing to high here now, but yu, I ain't 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.040 gave you permission to look at my car either. So 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:44.160 they go down look at my car. They come back 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:46.920 in and they got my She took another jacket off 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.280 of me as a back gas, just some mother stuff. 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:54.359 They had my gloves, They had lime green to bark 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:57.440 that I had never seen a dead in my life. 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:00.080 And for anyone who doesn't know, it's a boggle. And 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.080 I didn't know if Toboggan is a hat like the 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:04.480 one described by the victim in this case. So the 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.159 police come back with what they claim to have found 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.879 in your car. Go ahead, Ronnie, say God just. 0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:13.720 Got your car. If you won't beat hide them back 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.360 when we think them investigations. Signed your name my hands. 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:20.520 You gotta look on the people for me to study, said, 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.840 sign your name my hand. You won't beat him Okay, 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:27.600 I want my jacket, want my glove, but I don't 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:29.920 know who. But I don't know. I want my glue. 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:34.639 So I sent on the people time to sign out 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.400 as a consci cop. 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:42.919 So they tricked you in order to make it seem 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:45.640 like you consented, and that way it would have made 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:51.119 the search technically legal. They planted the lime green hatter toboggan. 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:57.240 Now the police gotta line lead the bog and saying 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.360 this is to happen in the perpetrator. I'm getting how long? 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:02.560 Then I don't go where the man I ain't never 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:09.280 heard of how longest hand side out? It's redish looking at. 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:10.040 It his head. 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.560 You got a line we had with red areas when 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:19.800 I had definitely I got black hand long you see 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:23.680 the red hair this man. This man as not. Yeah, 0:22:24.880 --> 0:22:28.600 I don't know what's going to be. The state would 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:31.000 never let me DNA test that had I won't have 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.800 a hand day did they would do. 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:39.120 So we now come to the conclusion that the police 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:43.320 planted this beanie in the car so that they could 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:47.760 have another you know, well really now that there is 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.680 no other evidence, so that they could have something that 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:56.040 they could use against him. And I say, something they 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:59.080 could use against him, because remember all that evidence Detective 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:02.160 Eisenhower collected from the crime scene. Well if the red 0:23:02.240 --> 0:23:04.880 hairs that they found in the beanie that are clearly 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:09.119 not Ronnie's hair, bother, you just wait, because it's about 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:13.400 to get way worse again. The crime scene evidence comes 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:16.160 back from the stapue of investigation in Raleigh, and none 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:19.159 of it matches Ronnie. But since the rich white widow 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:21.200 of an executive of one of the biggest employers in 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:25.000 town just idd him as her rapist rather than just 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:29.880 doing the right thing, the just thing, the evidence never 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:33.720 even made it to the prosecutor's office, let alone the defense. 0:23:34.400 --> 0:23:39.000 So the police withheld the evidence from both the defense 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:44.000 and the prosecution. Let me just repeat that the police 0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:47.080 withheld the evidence not just from the defense, but from 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:50.760 the prosecution, just in case the prosecution might have decided, hey, 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:53.000 wait a minute, we got the wrong guy. That the 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:56.879 police decided to play judge jury, and I mean they 0:23:56.960 --> 0:23:59.280 might as well played executioner, because poor Ronnie's been in 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:04.680 prison for four for fucking years. I mean, this is yeah, 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:07.080 I mean, just when I think I've heard it all, 0:24:09.560 --> 0:24:12.000 and Jamie, you're living this day in and day out. Now, 0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.320 I mean, what can you add to that, because it 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:15.360 gets worse from there. 0:24:15.480 --> 0:24:19.119 Right, So, they not only tested this evidence and it 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:22.520 didn't match long. When it didn't match long, they made 0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:25.040 the decision that they wouldn't turn it over to the 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:29.680