1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Since our initial release of Rodney Long's story, there have 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: been some incredible developments, and this is a re release 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: of that story with new content outlining the great news. 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: At around nine forty five on the night of April 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: twenty fifth, nineteen seventy six, the fifty four year old 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: widow of a Cannon Mills executive was at her home 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: and Conquered, North Carolina when a man grabbed her from behind. 8 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: She fought him, scratching her attackers so hard that her 9 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: nails bent backwards, but ultimately he overpowered and raped her. 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: She described her assailant as a light skinned black man 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: with no mention of facial hair, wearing a dark leather 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: coat and a beanie hat. A rape kit was done 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: and the police carefully collected a mountain of forensic evidence. Meanwhile, 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: across town, nineteen year old Ronnie Long was at home 15 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: with his mother, on the phone with the mother of 16 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: his own two year old son till ten PM. A 17 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: few days later, Ronnie received court summons for trespassing in 18 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: a park after hours. He was wearing a dark leather 19 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: coat at the time. Police would ask the rape victim 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: to be present in court to see if her attacker 21 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: was present on the day Ronnie, the owner of a 22 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: dark leather coat, was scheduled to appear disguised. She sat 23 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: in the gallery for two hours in Ronnie's presence, only 24 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: to identify him as her attacker when his name was called. 25 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: The state would present a case without any of the 26 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: collected forensic or biological evidence, solely resting their case upon 27 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: this extremely unorthodox and totally unreliable cross racial identification and 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: Ronnie's unscratched leather coat. For that, Ronnie has been in 29 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: prison for forty four years. This is wrongful conviction with 30 00:01:50,680 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: Jason Flatta, Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's case Will 31 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: It's going to upset you. I'm going to tell you 32 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: right now this is a grotesque injustice that was inflicted 33 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: and is still being inflicted on an amazing man named 34 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: Ronnie Long. And we're hoping to hear from Ronnie during 35 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: the recording. He'll be calling in from prison where he 36 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: has been since nineteen seventy six for a crime he 37 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 1: didn't commit. In this time of COVID, there's all sorts 38 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: of complications, so we're going to try to make it 39 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: work with us now as well. Is Jamie Lao Jamie 40 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: is an attorney at Duke University's Wrongful Convictions Clinic. And Jamie, 41 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us on the show. 42 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 43 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to do something unusual here. I actually want 44 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: to start at the end. We almost know ever do that. 45 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: But there's a quote from a judge named James Wynn, 46 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: who's a circuit court judge in the fourth District Court. 47 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: So this is a serious guy. And Judge Wynn said, 48 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: and I quote, prosecutors clearly had evidence that any defense 49 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: council in the world, not only in nineteen seventy six, 50 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: but in the history of this country would have wanted 51 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: or needed, and which should have been supplied, and yet 52 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: we did not provide it. He goes on to say, 53 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: what is it about us that we want to prosecute 54 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: and keep people in jail when we know evidence may 55 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: exist that might lead to a different conclusion. Why is 56 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: that so offensive to us now that we want to 57 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: protect illegal activity from forty four years ago? What's the 58 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: harm of looking at the new evidence? He said? When 59 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: did justice leave the process? So we let our rules 60 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: blind us to what we all can see. Wow. 61 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 2: Well, during the course of argument, it made us optimistic 62 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: that after forty four years, an end may be near 63 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: to the injustice that occurred in Ronnie's case. It's been 64 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 2: an incredible difficult journey through the courts to get his 65 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 2: case to where it was. On May seventh of this year, 66 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: you said we'll start at the end, and the end 67 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: at this point in time was an argument on May 68 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: seventh in front of the full Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, 69 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: which is fifteen active judges all have been appointed by 70 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 2: a President judge when was making that quote in response 71 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: to arguments from the State of North Carolina that more 72 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 2: or less was asking the court to disregard all the 73 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: evidence that is now known about in this case that 74 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: was hid from Ronnie at the time of his trial 75 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy six. And Judge Winn also discussed sort 76 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 2: of the circumstances of nineteen seventy six and the conditions 77 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: of black mails, particularly in the South in nineteen seventy six, 78 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: and how they were wrongfully convicted in great numbers. So 79 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 2: at the moment Judge Wynn offered his viewpoints during the 80 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: course of the stakes argument, we knew that we had 81 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: succeeded in conveying to the court, the seriousness and the 82 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: magnitude of the injustice that occurred in Ronnie's case. 83 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: As promised, we got a phone call from Ronnie, and 84 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 1: I must warn you that there was a poor connection 85 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: with the prison. So Ronnie's a little hard to hear. 86 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: But what he has to say needs to be heard, 87 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: so please bear with us. 88 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 3: You have a pre paid call. You will not be 89 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 3: charged for this call. This call is from an inmate 90 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 3: Albemarle Correctional Institution. This call will be monitored and recorded. 91 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 3: To accept this call, Prince, I've now to decline this 92 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 3: call hang out. Thank you for using Global tail link. 93 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: Hello, Hi Ronnie, thanks for calling me. I know we 94 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: have limited time, so let's get right into it now. 95 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: You grew up and conquered North Carolina, right, seven brothers 96 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: and sisters. Can you tell me a little bit about 97 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: your life before all of this horrible stuff happened. 98 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 4: I played sports when I was in high school. Right 99 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 4: wait to call for I learned how to link with 100 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 4: such songs. That's kind of of work I was doing 101 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 4: with my dad. I'll go to work with him sometime, 102 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 4: take money with him. I had a son. I spent 103 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 4: a lot of time with my sons to cool in 104 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 4: the game the game when I never streeted with three. 105 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: Now I read about this one time before you had 106 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: your son, way before the incident that lands you in prison, 107 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: there was an encounter that you once had with some 108 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: police officers. They they pulled up on you, harassed you 109 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: a bit, hey, you know what you're doing around here? 110 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: Boy type of thing, and you responded, isn't this America? 111 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: All night? I free to walk on this sidewalk? 112 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 4: That right, I was coming from a girl hell. I 113 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 4: was coming from a girl house one night. The area 114 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 4: that I was in, it was only this. I was 115 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 4: coming home one night. The two white couple pull up 116 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 4: behind me. That were you coming from? What are you 117 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 4: doing in this area here? Did you walk home side here? 118 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 4: They took me, took me downtown for me in a room. 119 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 4: I stated a gave up too loud, but also came up, 120 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 4: told me to go, you can leave. I just gotta 121 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 4: walk up, went home. 122 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: And that's it seems to be how he got to 123 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: be on the radar of the local authorities. And then 124 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: on the Faithful Day of Sunday, a twenty fifth, nineteen 125 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: seventy six, at around nine forty five pm, a wealthy, white, 126 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: fifty four year old widow of a Cannon Mills executive 127 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: was burglarized and raped an awful, awful crime, and Canon 128 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: Mills was a major employer in the area, and that 129 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: name's going to come to play a big role in this. 130 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: In this story, the victim said that while she was 131 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: preparing food for a beach trip the following day, a 132 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: black man snuck into her home and grabbed her from behind. 133 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: She said the intruder told her that he only had 134 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes as his friends were waiting for him outside 135 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: like a horror movie, and he proceeded to rape her. 136 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: She later described her attacker as a quote yellow looking 137 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: and quote again not blue black, maybe wearing gloves, a 138 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: beanie hat, no mention of any facial hair, and a 139 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: dark leather coat. She also described the violent struggle where 140 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: she scratched her attacker so hard that her fingernails bent backward, 141 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: which would definitely have left the mark on that leather coat. 142 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: The victim said that whenever she tried to move, he 143 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: would slam her head against the ground. Then the phone rang, 144 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: startling the attacker, who gathered his things and left through 145 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: the front door. The victim then rushed over to her 146 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: neighbors naked, where she was able to call the police, 147 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: and they arrived around ten pm. The victim has since 148 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 1: passed away, but that being said, she was rushed to 149 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: the hospital for a rape kit and the doctor performed 150 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: all the tests and collected all the biological evidence and 151 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: everything else. What happened next is that Detective Eisenhower of 152 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: the Concord Police Department arrived at the victim's home around 153 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: ten thirty. He photographed the house and began collecting evidence, 154 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: including latent fingerprints, carpet samples, suspect hair paint samples, as 155 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: well as pieces of the victim's clothing and partially burned matches, 156 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: and he later brought them to the State Bureau of 157 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: Investigation office at Raleigh for examination. He also lifted a 158 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: latent shoe print from a column near the porch. Now 159 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 1: this is important. Later has nothing but the shoe print 160 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: was ever discussed at trial. And before we go any further, 161 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: we need to state clearly that Ronnie had a solid alibi. 162 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: And remember the crime took place at nine five. Ronnie, 163 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: at around nine thirty, you were at home with your 164 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: mother waiting on your father to get back with the 165 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: car so you could head out to a party in Charlotte. 166 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: You were on the phone with the mother of your child. 167 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: Your mom hopped on the phone a few times to 168 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: say hello to her grandson. 169 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, he on the phone too, but you can't 170 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 4: all I understand what he's saying when he was trying 171 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 4: to talk. He on the phone to my mom was 172 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 4: on the phone, on the phone. I'm up on the 173 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 4: phone and I'm waiting on my dad to come back 174 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 4: with the card. One on to a party and shower. 175 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: So Jamie, can you take us back to how Ronnie 176 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: came to be implicated in it and how he could 177 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: have possibly been convicted in spite of no evidence at all, 178 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: none zero. 179 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. Ronnie, very much like other young black men in 180 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy six and still today, was harassed by law 181 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 2: enforcement officers. That harassment directly led to what ultimately becomes 182 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 2: this forty four year old wrongful conviction. On April twenty fifth, 183 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: the victim is assaulted and raped in her home. A 184 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 2: few days after that, Ronnie receives a trespassing charge at 185 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 2: the local park that was adjacent to his home when 186 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: he shouldn't have been there, and during that time, it 187 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 2: appears that he was observed wearing a black leather coat. 188 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: The officer who stopped him recalled that the person who 189 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: was described by the victim had been wearing a dark 190 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: leather coat on the night of April twenty fifth when 191 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 2: she gave a description to law enforcement, and despite Ronnie 192 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 2: not matching other very prominent features that were included in 193 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: her description, the officer decided that perhaps he was the 194 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: individual who had assaulted the victim. I mean it was 195 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 2: significant the disparities between her description of her assailant and Ronnie. 196 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: She described her assailant as a yellow black male. In 197 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: the South at the time, to describe somebody as a 198 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: yellow black male meant a light skinned black person of 199 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: mixed origin. She never mentioned her assailant having facial hair. 200 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: Ronnie had facial hair, and disputed that he had facial 201 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 2: hair on April twenty fifth, nineteen seventy six, when she 202 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: was assaulted. So despite him having a different complexion having 203 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 2: facial hair, where she never described facial hair, he becomes 204 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 2: a suspect. Officers then go to her home and says, 205 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: we have reason to believe that the individual who had 206 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 2: assaulted you will be in the courtroom on this date 207 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: fifteen days later, May tenth, nineteen seventy six, and we'd 208 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 2: like you to come down to the courtroom to see 209 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 2: if you can identify the person who attacked you there. 210 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: So immediately in her mind she thinks they've done some 211 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 2: investigation and have identified a likely suspect. But all they 212 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: had done is made the connect to the fact that 213 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 2: Ronnie had a black leather coat similar to what she described. 214 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 2: The real curious thing with respect to law enforcement asking 215 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 2: the victim to go to the courthouse to try and 216 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: make an identification is they had a picture of long 217 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 2: that they could have shown her when they went to 218 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 2: her and asked her to come to the courthouse, And 219 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 2: they could have did it in a fair procedure, or 220 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 2: as fair as these identification procedures can be, with the 221 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 2: inclusion of fillers to ensure that she's selecting him from 222 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: memory and not because he looks most like the attacker 223 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 2: or because she's being presented a suspect in a very 224 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: suggestive way. They elected to forego that. So she's the 225 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 2: courthouse dressed in a disguise because she's fearful that if 226 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 2: her attacker was there, he'd recognize her. She describes during 227 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 2: her testimony being terrified. She sits in the courtroom for 228 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 2: an hour and a half Inglong's presence and fails to 229 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: identify him. And only when his name is called and 230 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: he walks up to resolve the trespassing charge, which was 231 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: dismissed that day, did she say he's the one. But 232 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: it's telling because we later learned during her testimony at 233 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: trial that there were only twelve black males in the courtroom. 234 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: She quickly eliminated several of them because they had afros 235 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: where they were older. She described one as being old 236 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: and hunched over, and she says that he was the 237 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: only one that looked remotely similar to her attacker. And 238 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: identification evidence is already flawed and highly unreliable, but here 239 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 2: you can just take her words that she's just picking 240 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: the person looks most likely to be her attacker that's 241 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: president in the courtroom, so she can end the experience 242 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 2: where she's traumatized and terrified, so that in essence becomes 243 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: the only evidence against law. And here we are, forty 244 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: four years later, trying to undo that identification. 245 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: And I'm glad you brought that up, Jamie, because we 246 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: know the most unreliable eyewitness identification is cross racial. This 247 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: fits exactly into that category, and then, of course there's 248 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: still room for it to get worse. So Ronnie, take 249 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: us back to the day that you were in court 250 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: for the misdemeanor trespassing charge, when you had no idea. 251 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: You couldn't have had any idea that there was a 252 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: rape victim in the gallery who was being led to 253 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: believe that her attacker was in the courtroom that day. 254 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: And the craziest thing is that you two were in 255 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: each other's presence for nearly two hours before she idd you. 256 00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 4: Right, yeah, there, misdemeanors just passed downtown. Now, I'm sitting 257 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 4: there for nine o'clock. When she called my name, I 258 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 4: stood up and we walked down front of me and 259 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 4: my dad. This is when the police said. This is 260 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 4: when they say that she had the same two detectives 261 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 4: that was on this case, that been on this cape 262 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 4: the whole time they were sitting in the Cury Fox. 263 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 4: She testified that it was it got me twelve black 264 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 4: in the courtroom. He's not any people in here looking 265 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 4: like me. She's supposed to be looking far a young 266 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 4: black man that assaulted her but she distinctly stated she's 267 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 4: looked around and looked around and looked around into the 268 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 4: trans trip, and I didn't see nobody. I want you, 269 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 4: I want you to think about this. She said. She 270 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 4: sitting in the courtroom man for over an hour and 271 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 4: a half, looking around, and she never didn't see anyone. 272 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 4: The people. Why she didn't see anyone else said because 273 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 4: of this special that she gave the police for the 274 00:16:54,520 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 4: light skinned black man with no hound in the face. I'm 275 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 4: sitting up in there, and you understanding saying God's skin 276 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 4: would hang on my favor, So I didn't ask another 277 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 4: the description. You understudstand that she was looking for her. 278 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 4: That's why I come. She couldn't pick me out, but 279 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 4: she picked me out. Here, says say, when they called 280 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 4: my name and run along, go to the front, run along. 281 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 4: If you ain't court I said, yeah, we come down front. 282 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 4: That's why she said she recognized. She ain't recognized me. 283 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 4: She's recognized my name. You go, number one, How are 284 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 4: you gonna sit in the courtroom ere stairs for a 285 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 4: whole hour and a half. Ain't eleven it ain't but 286 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 4: twelve blacks in them? You gonna sitting there for a 287 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 4: whole hour and a half. You don't see this young 288 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 4: black man that you're looking for. The reason you don't 289 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 4: see it because she's not Yeah, he got, he got 290 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 4: on his face. The court asked this woman, could the 291 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 4: police department got told you to pick run alone? She said, 292 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 4: they could have. I don't know. That's in the transition. 293 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 4: They could have. 294 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: I don't know. The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter 295 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: of this episode of Rafel Convision with Jason Flahm, and 296 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: of the Last Mile organization, which provides business and tech 297 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: training to help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re enter 298 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: the workforce. The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving the 299 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations that are dedicated 300 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: primarily to helping young people and students. For more information 301 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: on the work of the Pacers Foundation or the Last 302 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: Mile program, please visit Pacers Foundation dot org or the 303 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: Lastmile dot org. This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss, Rifkin, 304 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: Orton and Garrison, a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss 305 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro 306 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our 307 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: society and in support of the public interest, including extensive 308 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: work in the criminal justice area. So the victim makes 309 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: this shaky identification, tells the detectives, but you've got no 310 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: idea that any of this is going on. You're there 311 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: for this misdemeanor charge, which gets dismissed, and then you 312 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: go home. But that was not the last you'd see 313 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: of law enforcement that day. 314 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 4: Went home with thee I'll wake up a few whiles later, 315 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 4: my mom Jelly. 316 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: When Ronnie was picked up, he was not told that 317 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: he was suspected of this raid. Instead, he arrived at 318 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: the station at six forty five pm, was read as 319 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: rights and the police claimed that they asked permission to 320 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: search his car, but they hadn't, and then they testified 321 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: to finding gloves, matchbooks, and a beanie in the car. 322 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: Ronnie maintains that the gloves or head but the beamie 323 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: was not. 324 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 4: I followed the police downtown. I used to drive with 325 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 4: gloves on, but when I get out of the car, 326 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 4: I take my gloves off. I speak of my home, 327 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 4: my son's value. I tried the car, I locked the door, 328 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 4: I got on the black the other jacket. Yeah, I'll 329 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 4: go up there, they kill me. I'm a suspecting a 330 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 4: rapron kay, I'll take my keys up. They take my 331 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 4: keys up the front out of the door with the 332 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 4: same to the ticket that was in the courtroom that morning. Yo, man, 333 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 4: without going with my keys, bring my keys back. 334 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: Kill. 335 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 4: They're just going to look in your car. You ain't 336 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 4: got nothing to high here now, but yu, I ain't 337 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 4: gave you permission to look at my car either. So 338 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 4: they go down look at my car. They come back 339 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 4: in and they got my She took another jacket off 340 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 4: of me as a back gas, just some mother stuff. 341 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 4: They had my gloves, They had lime green to bark 342 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 4: that I had never seen a dead in my life. 343 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: And for anyone who doesn't know, it's a boggle. And 344 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: I didn't know if Toboggan is a hat like the 345 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: one described by the victim in this case. So the 346 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 1: police come back with what they claim to have found 347 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: in your car. Go ahead, Ronnie, say God just. 348 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 4: Got your car. If you won't beat hide them back 349 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,360 Speaker 4: when we think them investigations. Signed your name my hands. 350 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 4: You gotta look on the people for me to study, said, 351 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 4: sign your name my hand. You won't beat him Okay, 352 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 4: I want my jacket, want my glove, but I don't 353 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 4: know who. But I don't know. I want my glue. 354 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 4: So I sent on the people time to sign out 355 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 4: as a consci cop. 356 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 1: So they tricked you in order to make it seem 357 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: like you consented, and that way it would have made 358 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: the search technically legal. They planted the lime green hatter toboggan. 359 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 4: Now the police gotta line lead the bog and saying 360 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 4: this is to happen in the perpetrator. I'm getting how long? 361 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 4: Then I don't go where the man I ain't never 362 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 4: heard of how longest hand side out? It's redish looking at. 363 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 5: It his head. 364 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 4: You got a line we had with red areas when 365 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 4: I had definitely I got black hand long you see 366 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 4: the red hair this man. This man as not. Yeah, 367 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 4: I don't know what's going to be. The state would 368 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 4: never let me DNA test that had I won't have 369 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 4: a hand day did they would do. 370 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: So we now come to the conclusion that the police 371 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: planted this beanie in the car so that they could 372 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: have another you know, well really now that there is 373 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: no other evidence, so that they could have something that 374 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: they could use against him. And I say, something they 375 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: could use against him, because remember all that evidence Detective 376 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: Eisenhower collected from the crime scene. Well if the red 377 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: hairs that they found in the beanie that are clearly 378 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: not Ronnie's hair, bother, you just wait, because it's about 379 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: to get way worse again. The crime scene evidence comes 380 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: back from the stapue of investigation in Raleigh, and none 381 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: of it matches Ronnie. But since the rich white widow 382 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: of an executive of one of the biggest employers in 383 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: town just idd him as her rapist rather than just 384 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,880 Speaker 1: doing the right thing, the just thing, the evidence never 385 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: even made it to the prosecutor's office, let alone the defense. 386 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: So the police withheld the evidence from both the defense 387 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: and the prosecution. Let me just repeat that the police 388 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: withheld the evidence not just from the defense, but from 389 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: the prosecution, just in case the prosecution might have decided, hey, 390 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: wait a minute, we got the wrong guy. That the 391 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: police decided to play judge jury, and I mean they 392 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: might as well played executioner, because poor Ronnie's been in 393 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 1: prison for four for fucking years. I mean, this is yeah, 394 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: I mean, just when I think I've heard it all, 395 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: and Jamie, you're living this day in and day out. Now, 396 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: I mean, what can you add to that, because it 397 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:15,360 Speaker 1: gets worse from there. 398 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 2: Right, So, they not only tested this evidence and it 399 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 2: didn't match long. When it didn't match long, they made 400 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: the decision that they wouldn't turn it over to the 401 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 2: defense or the prosecution, which we contending. We argued this 402 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 2: at the May seventh hearing that we had in this case, 403 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: that there's a possibility that the prosecutor could have decided 404 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 2: not to go forward with this case at all had 405 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 2: he known that all the forensic test results pointed away 406 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 2: from Ronnie and towards another suspect. There was suspect hair 407 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: collected brought to Raleigh, examined by the crime lab, determined 408 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 2: by the crime lab to be in the parlance of 409 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 2: the lab report of Negroid or Mongolian origin, meaning that 410 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 2: it came from a person who was either Asian or black. 411 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 2: And we know that that hair that was collected that 412 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 2: was suspect hair, didn't match long. If it didn't match long, 413 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: then the suspect, the person who should have been incarcerated 414 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 2: for forty four years. There's the evidence of who that 415 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 2: person's identity is. And it's remarkable in the fact that 416 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 2: they believe this would be probative. They collected because they 417 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: thought it would be probative. All indications are that it 418 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 2: did come from the suspect, but when it didn't match Long, 419 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 2: they kept it from everybody so the prosecutor would go 420 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 2: forward on the basis of this completely unheard of identification procedure. 421 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 2: And I have to tell you, Jason, I'm very skeptical 422 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: whenever any client offers a suggestion that evidence may be planted. 423 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 2: But as you look at this case and what officers 424 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 2: did keeping evidence away from the prosecutor, it really makes 425 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 2: you stop and say, oh, my goodness, this is completely 426 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 2: consistent with the behaviors of the officers in this case. 427 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 2: And then when Long says those are my gloves, but 428 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 2: I've never seen that beanie in my life, you think 429 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 2: why would he acknowledge owning one but not the other. 430 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: And the only explanation is because the officers in this 431 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 2: case set out to ensure Long was convicted. That included lying, hiding, 432 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 2: and with the beanie, manufacturing evidence to ensure that he 433 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 2: would spend the rest of his life incarcerating convicted for 434 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: this crime. And for whatever reason, the state of North 435 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: Carolina is just willing to ignore that altogether and continue 436 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 2: to argue that Long is guilty of this crime. 437 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: It's crazy, right, And there's no evidence that he ever 438 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: owned a beanie. There's no photographs of him at a beanie. 439 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: There's nobody knew about any beanie. There's also the fact 440 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: that the victim had fought her attacker with all of 441 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: her strength, and she had scraped the attacker so hard 442 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: that her own nails bent back. 443 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 4: You know, you take a leaven check. Did you spreached? 444 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 4: Did you look at my mom a microscope? Ain't no 445 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 4: where in the world you can have that splits. That's media. Yea, 446 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 4: my coat, look up the microscope data on my coat. 447 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 4: But yet still she's saying, that's the coat, that's the tacking, 448 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 4: that's the perpetrator. 449 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 2: Wolf. 450 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 4: They won those clutches on me. They won no sludge 451 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 4: o sircuit. 452 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: Well, there's a good explanation for there being no scratches 453 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: on you, your face, your leather coat. It's painfully simple. 454 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: It's because you weren't there that night. But she i 455 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: d'd you. They were trying to make the square fit 456 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: the circle, and they were willing to bend the rules, 457 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: bend break the rules. They planted evidence in your car 458 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: and tried everything they could to make sure that they 459 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: got a conviction in this case. And people were out 460 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: in the street protesting as well. 461 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 4: Right. 462 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: So, but when they arrested you, they offered you a 463 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: plea deal so they can make all of that public 464 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: outcry just go away. 465 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 4: No, they lock me when they love me, or they 466 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 4: offered me a seven year treatment. They offered me a 467 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 4: seven year of treaty, told me that I would be 468 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 4: back home in three years, and they made it explicitly 469 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 4: clear that if I didn't take the treat if it 470 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 4: was charming for my life. So, I mean, I got 471 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 4: people in the street industry, I got my family, I 472 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 4: did in the street. I got people in the street. 473 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 4: Dealer says that it's support me. I knew exactly what 474 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 4: they wanted. 475 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: Man. 476 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 4: They wanted to me the pe feed out to that 477 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 4: charge so they could put it on front pains two 478 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 4: old letters long. Tea was a great job. So alway, y'all, 479 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 4: I got holler together and throwing things and then you're 480 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 4: going home. But I knew I couldn't do that because 481 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 4: number one, my dad said, I didn't really. So so 482 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 4: you did something, you didn't do it. I turned down 483 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 4: the tea, so I will face it too, Yester. God 484 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 4: was a mysterious leading to it. Took me cool the 485 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 4: same year, stayed in North Carolina. 486 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: But then we get to the trial itself, and this 487 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: is going to shock exactly no one. This is an 488 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: all white jury conquered North Carolina nineteen seventy six. The 489 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: jury was handpicked by the Cabres County sheriff. And get this, 490 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: three of the members of the jury worked for Cannon Mills. 491 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: And you'll remember that the victim's husband worked at Canon 492 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: Mills as well. 493 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: So the jury chairperson at the time created a master 494 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: list of jurors. To get us summings for jury duty, 495 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: you had to be on that list. And prior to 496 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: Long's trial, he brought that list of mess their jurors 497 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: first to the sheriff and allowed the sheriff to strike 498 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 2: through any person on that list that the sheriff deemed 499 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 2: unfit for jury duty. He then brought the list to 500 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 2: the conquered police department, and testimony is that the chief 501 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: of police and some of his deputies sat there and 502 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 2: did the same. So law enforcement, the very people who 503 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 2: investigated this case, ended up lying about this case, about 504 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: the evidence collected in this case played a role in 505 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: the selection of the jurors who ultimately found mister Long guilty. 506 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 2: And in this trial, every single witness that testified for 507 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: the State of North Carolina was white. Every single witness 508 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 2: that testified on behalf of Ronnie Long to demonstrate his innocence, 509 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: to prove his alibi, to show that he was nowhere 510 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: near the victim's home on the night this attack occurred, 511 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 2: was black. And by selecting an all white jury in 512 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: segregated Concord, North Carolina, in nineteen seventy six, ultimately what 513 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 2: we had was a circumstance where the jurors were being 514 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 2: asked to decide between finding their neighbors truthful or finding 515 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: the people from the other side of the tracks, the 516 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 2: black side of town. They would have had to find 517 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: them truthful over the officers who were their neighbors, who 518 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: were the people who lived in their community, their side 519 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: of town. That's what it would have taken to find 520 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 2: Long not guilty. And of course we all know how 521 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 2: it played out. 522 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: And this courtroom, it was a racially divided court with 523 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: blacks on one side and whites on the other. And 524 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: of course, now the really awful result, a predictable result 525 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: of this sham trial, was that on October first, nineteen 526 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: seventy six, with his whole life in front of him, 527 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: Ronnie Long was convicted and sentenced to two life terms. 528 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: His mother fainted and a riot nearly ensued. Long himself 529 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: has called his conviction a quote modernized lynching sanctioned by law. 530 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 4: When they found me guilty, they just started fighting in 531 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 4: the courtroom. 532 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 3: I started. 533 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 4: My mom stopped, she said, behind me, grabbing afield. She said, 534 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 4: Jillie Holbs, love that fills right there. 535 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 3: Get that, Megan. 536 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 4: I won't even rally the night. 537 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: And listen to this. So after Long's conviction, concord bubbled 538 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: over with fury. The next day, hundreds of protesters descended 539 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: on the cities downtown, staging a demonstration in front of 540 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: the courthouse, and for days fifty or more police officers 541 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 1: in full riot gear stationed themselves at a nearby park, 542 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: and the police chief warned protesters violence would be met 543 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: with force. So I mean nothing has changed. And the bravery, 544 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: the courage of these people who protested, putting themselves in 545 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: grave danger from the same police force that had just framed, 546 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: their friend, their neighbor, their fellow human. 547 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 2: I had spoke with his trial counsel, Jim Fuller prior 548 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 2: to the May seventh arguments, and he said, Jamie, I've 549 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 2: only been maced one time in my life. And it 550 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 2: was after the verdict when outbursts occurred in the courtroom 551 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: and law enforcement decided to clear out all the supporters 552 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 2: of LNG. And he said officers were beating a young 553 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: man and he tried to pull the officers away, and 554 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 2: they turned and sprayed him Long's trial attorney in the 555 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 2: face with mace. 556 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: Nothing has changed. It's really it's really hard to you know. 557 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm trying to be optimistic, and you know, 558 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: I think we are on the verge of change. But 559 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: it's remarkable how much things are as they were forty 560 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: four years later. The post conviction litigation history. Can you 561 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: walk us through that, Jamie, because it's quite extraordinary in 562 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: and of itself. 563 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 2: It's been a long process. So it began in the nineties. 564 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: After he was convicted. He filed his first what we 565 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 2: call here in North Carolina Emotions for Appropriate Relief. They're 566 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 2: the post conviction review petitions that initiate post conviction proceedings, 567 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 2: and it was related to the jury he was ruled 568 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,239 Speaker 2: against or in the course of those proceedings that was 569 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 2: then appealed in federal court, arguing the same things, that 570 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 2: he didn't commit the crime and that his trial was 571 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 2: unfair in part because of the way in which the 572 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 2: jury was seated, and he was ruled against sing federal court. 573 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 2: Over the years, he tried to get people to help him, 574 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 2: and then in two thousand and five, the Innocence Project 575 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 2: that the University of North Carolina took interest in the case, 576 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 2: and the present litigation began. They found an attorney to 577 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: work with Ronnie. That attorney did all the work necessary 578 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 2: to uncover not just the lies, but the evidence that 579 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 2: was withheld from long at the time of his trial, 580 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 2: and they went into state court and held an evidentiary 581 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 2: hearing where the judge heard testimony related to the withholding 582 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 2: of this evidence. That's a real interesting proceeding because the prosecutor, 583 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 2: the individual who tried Ronnie along back in nineteen seventy six, 584 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 2: took the stand in testified for long that he didn't 585 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 2: have copies of these reports. He didn't know that this 586 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 2: testing was done. Had he known that it was done, 587 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 2: he would have required that it been turned over. He 588 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,879 Speaker 2: also talked about a sexual assault kit that we haven't 589 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,240 Speaker 2: even talked about, that they collected one from the victim 590 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 2: and then it subsequently disappeared. 591 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:19,399 Speaker 1: Jesus Yeah. 592 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 2: So he testified for long, but despite all that, the 593 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 2: judging State court ruled against long and found that he 594 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 2: hadn't proven that his ranks were violated. The case then 595 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 2: went to the North Carolina Supreme Court. There are seven 596 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 2: justices on the North Carolina Supreme Court. One set out 597 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 2: the decision, and as a result, the Supreme Court split 598 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 2: three to three. So Tye went to the state. Ronnie's 599 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 2: conviction was upheld and he was still incarcerated. It then 600 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 2: went to an organization in North Carolina called the North 601 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 2: Carolina Innocents Inquiry Commission. They reviewed the case and their 602 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 2: focus was trying to find the sexual assault kit that 603 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 2: was collected and disappeared. They did not find it, but 604 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 2: they actually discovered that in two thousand and eight. During 605 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 2: the course of those proceedings, officers lied again by saying 606 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 2: that they had no physical evidence remaining in the case 607 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 2: in their custody. Winning fact, they had all the latent 608 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 2: fingerprints that had been collected from the crime scene. That's 609 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 2: when I got involved and the other attorneys I work 610 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 2: with at the Wrongful Convictions Clinic, we worked to file 611 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 2: another Habeast petition on Ronnie's behalf. It was dismissed because 612 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 2: the district Court said that we had failed to bring 613 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 2: the fingerprint related evidence in state court prior to filing 614 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 2: our Habeast petition. Of course, it would have been brought 615 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 2: in state court had it not been hid during the 616 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 2: time that the state post conviction litigation was ongoing. We 617 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 2: appealed that dismissal. The Fourth Circuit reversed and sent it 618 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 2: back to the district Court. Then the district Court once 619 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 2: again granted a dismissal on behalf of the state. The 620 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 2: district court said that while we had shown that evidence 621 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 2: was withheld that it was favorable to Long, but that 622 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 2: the state court was reasonable in determining that the evidence 623 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 2: was immaterial to the outcome of his trial. So it 624 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 2: was dismissed again, and we appealed that decision, which came 625 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 2: in July of twenty eighteen. The Fourth Circuit Court of 626 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 2: Appeals heard oral arguments. In May of twenty nineteen. A 627 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 2: panel entered a decision two to one, saying that Long 628 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 2: had failed to demonstrate the materiality of the evidence since 629 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,839 Speaker 2: the State Court again was reasonable. That decision came down 630 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 2: in January of twenty twenty. We then asked for full 631 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 2: court review, called a petition for rehearing in Bank. And 632 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 2: what that triggers is that full fifteen judge review of 633 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 2: the case. The court agreed to hear it while sitting 634 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 2: in Bank and next to the argument we had in 635 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 2: on May seventh of twenty twenty. So it's been a 636 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 2: long fight to get to the point where we know 637 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 2: that the judges are at least, you know, seeing the 638 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 2: injustices here that we saw as evidence by the statement 639 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,320 Speaker 2: of Judge Win during the course of those oral arguments. 640 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,919 Speaker 1: Judge Winn said, quote, prosecutors clearly had evidence that any 641 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: defense council in the world, not only in nineteen seventy six, 642 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: but in the history of this country would have wanted 643 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: or needed, and which should have been supplied, and yet 644 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: we did not provide it. What is it about us 645 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: that we want to prosecute and keep people in jail 646 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: when we know evidence may exist that might lead to 647 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: a different outcome. Why is that so offensive to us 648 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: now that we want to protect illegal activity from forty 649 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: four years ago end quote. And of course he was 650 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: referring to the illegal activity on the part of law 651 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: enforcement in this case. So the fifteen judge panel for 652 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: the enbuank Herring in the Fourth Circuit heard Ronney's case 653 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: in May twenty twenty, and finally in August, they voted 654 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: nine to six in Ronnie's favor to reverse the dismissal 655 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,280 Speaker 1: of his petition. Then the US District Court granted Ronnie's 656 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:30,000 Speaker 1: habeas write, setting him free on August twenty seventh, twenty twenty, 657 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: after forty four long years, and the very next day, 658 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: the Cabrest County District Attorney dismissed the charges. I mean, 659 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: I will never forget watching the live stream of your release. 660 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: It was really emotional for me, so I can't imagine 661 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: what it must have been like for you. 662 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 5: I'm sitting on my bunk side come to meet Tim 663 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 5: to say, yeah, hurry up. They brought to them clothed 664 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 5: right now. I said, man, what's this, Wh'm going to court? 665 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 5: He said, nah, Man, they told me release you. 666 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 6: Just that quick. 667 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:12,400 Speaker 5: When that man told me. 668 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 6: There your clothes right there. The wife is out there 669 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 6: waiting on you. 670 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 4: I come out. 671 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 6: Listen if you look down and and shoe, my shoes 672 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,839 Speaker 6: ain't tired. My socks is in my back. 673 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 5: I walked out on my wife birthday you're talking about. 674 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 5: I mean elatement to walk out that gate after forty 675 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 5: four years and turn around and look at it. I 676 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 5: told myself when I looked at it, I would never 677 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 5: ever go behind another bar, another locking key. They would 678 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,480 Speaker 5: never ever locked me up again. 679 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're fucking ay right about that. I mean, so, 680 00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 1: what did you do with the rest of the day. 681 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it was your wife, Ashley's birthday, as fate 682 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: would have it, on top of everything else. So pretty 683 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: nice gift for her, was you? I mean, can you 684 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,319 Speaker 1: walk us through that magical day? 685 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,720 Speaker 5: Doctor? The media who kissed my missus nephew kissed my wife. 686 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 5: It had been about ninety days since I seen because 687 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,760 Speaker 5: of the COVID thing. Man, So me and my lawyer, 688 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 5: my wife, a couple of friends with the restaurant state 689 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 5: Bucaron and cheese, wasn't champagne and anything? Man, dam and 690 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 5: man all yes, man were sitting around me talking man 691 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 5: a duilation, being able man to. 692 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 6: Breathe. 693 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, breathing free air after an amount of time that 694 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: is incomprehensible to any of us. Roddie, I can't express 695 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 1: how happy I am for you. And not long after 696 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 1: your release, you filed for a pardon of innocence from 697 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,879 Speaker 1: Governor Cooper, who agreed to it in December twenty twenty 698 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: and in March twenty twenty one you receive state compensation, 699 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: which amounts to it's actually shockingly low, but nothing and 700 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: nothing would ever be enough. It works out to about 701 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: seventeen thousand dollars a year, which feels like a bit 702 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,360 Speaker 1: of a slap in the face, but there's really nothing. 703 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 1: There's no amount that could replace all of that lost time. 704 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:22,719 Speaker 1: You can't get it back. 705 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 5: Shit, I can't go back to May ten moncon simancy. 706 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 6: So I mean, what can they give me? I would, though, 707 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 6: like understand why, I mean, what type of person, what 708 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 6: type of mentality you have when you know you send 709 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 6: an innocent person to the gas tang. 710 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's there's no answer to how someone could do 711 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: that and just go home and sleep at night. And 712 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't make any sense to me and 713 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: never will. Is there anything, though, that our audience can 714 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: do to help you or any of the things you're 715 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: trying to achieve. 716 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, every day since I've been out. Man, it's 717 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 5: a struggle. I gotta go fundme paid. Man, whatever it 718 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 5: is you can help me with. I want you to 719 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 5: know that I appreciate this. 720 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, we'll definitely have that link to our bios, 721 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: so please if you can scroll down and click the 722 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: link and get involved. 723 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 5: Hey, Jason, listen, I won't let you know man that 724 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 5: I appreciate you having a platform for me to speak phone. 725 00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 5: So Jason, I won't thank you and your network man, 726 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 5: stand and say for what you did for me and 727 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:28,600 Speaker 5: my calls. 728 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, Ronnie, look, I mean when I heard about your situation, 729 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 1: all of us here at ron Ful Conviction Podcast we 730 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: had to do whatever we could. You know, there's a 731 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,799 Speaker 1: lot of people that helped. I'm honored that we were 732 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,800 Speaker 1: a part of helping you to win your freedom, and 733 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: I hope we stay friends for a long long time. 734 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 3: I know we will. 735 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: So now we turn to the closing of our show. 736 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:51,680 Speaker 1: First of all, I just want to thank you, Ronnie 737 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: for your courage, your strength, your grace. And now I'm 738 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: gonna turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on. Kick 739 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: back in my chair, close my eyes, and just listen 740 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,960 Speaker 1: to whatever you want to share with me at our audience. 741 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 5: Man, it's little look at what they first put me 742 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:14,920 Speaker 5: in that seal, and my mind started racing. And the 743 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 5: only thing that I could keep telling myself was you got. 744 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:18,440 Speaker 6: To be strong. 745 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:19,840 Speaker 4: You got to be strong. 746 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,280 Speaker 6: You got it strong, got you strong. 747 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 5: I took and built on the fact that, Man, I 748 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 5: knew I didn't have know been to Dell. I built 749 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,839 Speaker 5: on the fact that, man, they were scandalizing my family name. 750 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,239 Speaker 6: They was scandalized in my name. 751 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,759 Speaker 5: It alied on me. When I say that alied on me, man, 752 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:42,319 Speaker 5: I'm talking about corruption. Corruption unlied on me. Man, don't 753 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,120 Speaker 5: put me in the penitentiary. And I knew that I 754 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 5: could not let them get away with this shit. Be strong, 755 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:58,320 Speaker 5: be strong, be strong, health faith, health, faith, and know 756 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:07,440 Speaker 5: that you can overcome any obstacle, any barrier, any hurds 757 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,280 Speaker 5: in life if you apply yourself. 758 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:13,000 Speaker 2: The mind. 759 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 5: When they say the mind is a terrible thing in 760 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 5: the way, bain bullshit. It is you sit around for 761 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 5: firsty four years and not do anything to utilize your 762 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 5: medical capacity. Next thing, you know, man, you understand saying 763 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,640 Speaker 5: you walk around on psychotic drugs and everything because you cannot. 764 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 6: Deal with the tension and the stress. It's helped. It's hard, 765 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,279 Speaker 6: I'm telling you, but your mind is the key, in 766 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:48,440 Speaker 6: your heart. 767 00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 5: Is your determination. 768 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Ronful with Jason Flamm. Please 769 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,960 Speaker 1: support your local innocence projects and go to the link 770 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,399 Speaker 1: in our bio to see how you can help. I'd 771 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,760 Speaker 1: like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburn 772 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always, 773 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,680 Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 774 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and 775 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,400 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason 776 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,840 Speaker 1: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in 777 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one