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Speaker 1: Hey, folks, this is many here. I'm genuinely ecstatic that

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Speaker 1: you're tuning in for episode three of No Such Thing.

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Speaker 1: Quick content warning, though this episode features language that may

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Speaker 1: be uncomfortable to hear. You probably guess this by the

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Speaker 1: literal title of the episode, but in many cases this

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Speaker 1: language is not censored. So if you don't want to

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Speaker 1: hear any of that, now's your chance to back out. Otherwise,

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Speaker 1: enjoy the episode. I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is

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Speaker 1: No such Thing a show where we settle our dumb

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Speaker 1: arguments and yours by actually doing the research. Today's episode

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Speaker 1: is about the return of slurs. We'll talk about why

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Speaker 1: we think this is happening, we'll hear from some people

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Speaker 1: who are using slurs again, and we'll also interview a

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Speaker 1: very special guest. There's no such thing, no such thing.

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Speaker 2: Touch thank touch touch than.

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Speaker 1: All right, So I'm going to start here with kind

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Speaker 1: of an acknowledgment, an acknowledgment that a lot of us

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Speaker 1: were using slurs when we were in middle school, elementary school.

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Speaker 3: High school, high school.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm not going to go that far into college.

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Speaker 1: I remember, specifically in middle school, you know, I was

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Speaker 1: in the Halo two lobbies like that. That was not

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Speaker 1: a safe space, so to speak. You were getting racial slurs,

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Speaker 1: homophobic slurs, the R word just flying left and right,

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Speaker 1: every other word, especially when you would lose, which I

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Speaker 1: never did in middle school and in high school, in

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Speaker 1: my experience, you started to see the usage of these

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Speaker 1: words take a step back. And I remember this is

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Speaker 1: around the time when like people in your circles would

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Speaker 1: start coming out. And I remember one of my best

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Speaker 1: friends came out to us and he was someone who

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Speaker 1: was using the F word. But it made sense, right

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Speaker 1: because he was like.

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Speaker 4: From but remember to the community.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, but I remember him taking me to the

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Speaker 1: side once and being like upset that I was using it.

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Speaker 1: Back then, you're using the F word. You're not talking

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Speaker 1: about gay people, and so this is what I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to tell my friend at the time, and he's saying, actually,

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Speaker 1: I know you're not talking about gay people, but the

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Speaker 1: word originated as a slur of gay people, and you

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Speaker 1: mean to describe someone who's stupid or ignorant. But you're

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Speaker 1: saying this word that was meant to make me feel bad.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, all right, that's fair. I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna argue with you. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm all ears.

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Speaker 1: I won't say I quit cold Turkey after that conversation, yes,

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Speaker 1: who can't. But that was a time when I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm starting to realize some of the nuances of these words.

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Speaker 1: And then yeah, progressively, since then, my usage died down

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Speaker 1: almost completely. Now, fast forward what twenty years, Jesus Christ world,

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Speaker 1: Fast forward twenty years. I'm in the Lower East Side.

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Speaker 1: I'm watching the Lakers play against the Celtics. This is

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Speaker 1: going somewhere, I promised, and I'm at this bar. There

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Speaker 1: are some Celtics fans in there that are going fucking crazy.

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Speaker 1: I was like, actually, like.

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Speaker 4: Whoa For context, for people who don't watch sports, there's

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Speaker 4: always been I guess reports and players accusing Celtics fans

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Speaker 4: of using slurs.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, more specifically the N word.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, in Boston sports.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Boston sports. Yeah, more widely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So they're in there. Lebron is you know. I

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Speaker 1: love Lebron, He's my king, my idol. But he was

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Speaker 1: he was maybe complaining a little bit too much about

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Speaker 1: a particular foul, and these guys were just letting it

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Speaker 1: the I was blown away by what they were saying,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, holy shit, we're in Manhattan. F word,

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Speaker 1: our word, your mother is blah blah blah. And I'm like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: now it's turn. I couldn't understand the power of these

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Speaker 1: words until they use them against Lebron James. No, but

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Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, are these words back or are

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Speaker 1: these guys just Celtics fans? Like maybe these guys never stopped. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to tell. In that moment. When I really

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Speaker 1: realized that these words were back is when I was

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Speaker 1: at a dinner and everyone at the dinner is uh,

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Speaker 1: not just a liberal, but also more left than that,

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Speaker 1: to be fair, like, so many of them are queer,

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Speaker 1: so like if you're if you're queer.

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Speaker 3: Using that degree or an attempt to maybe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But I was still surprised at the high usage

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Speaker 1: rate within that conversation, and that's when I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: something's going on here. So that's kind of been my experience.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious what your guys's experience with hearing these slurs are.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, obviously we have a lot of the same friends,

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Speaker 4: so I've noticed it in our friend group as well.

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Speaker 4: But I'm seeing on Twitter like people are saying, like, hey,

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Speaker 4: if y'all noticed a lot more people are using the

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Speaker 4: R word. And then that new FX show the English

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Speaker 4: teacher was in the trailer.

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Speaker 5: The kids this year, they're not into being woken all

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Speaker 5: the way around.

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Speaker 1: They're saying the R word again.

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Speaker 4: So it's reached, you know, FX writer level of popularity.

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Speaker 3: Now it's not just the US thing.

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Speaker 1: But did you guys like use slurs growing up? To

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Speaker 1: be honest, and this is not me trying to.

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Speaker 6: I really like never used I'll say the only time

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Speaker 6: I've ever used our word is like if I'm by

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Speaker 6: myself gaming and it's it's it's at myself, like wow,

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Speaker 6: I'm frustrated, and I'll say it.

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Speaker 1: But like and I'm not gaming on I'm not on.

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Speaker 3: That live you're talking. That's darker, to be honest, it's

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Speaker 3: much darker.

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Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. I'm not I'm not doing this

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Speaker 1: to pay myself in a nicer life. But when you

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Speaker 1: were growing up, that was just never kind of part

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Speaker 1: of the Like had friends who would use use them,

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Speaker 1: and but it was just like I just never.

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Speaker 4: Did our word for sure used to use it, I

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Speaker 4: would say, not as often, yeah, but I would say, yeah,

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Speaker 4: high school, early college.

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Speaker 3: I was sort of like, all right, you gotta stop

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Speaker 3: saying that.

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Speaker 4: And then I feel like everyone had in your circles

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Speaker 4: people who would I don't even say, like police these words,

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Speaker 4: but like would call you out for using them m hm.

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Speaker 4: And I think, you know, you get tired of people

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Speaker 4: calling you out, you eventually stop using it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like you're going to die on the celfa. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for what reason exactly? You know, all right, we've established

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Speaker 1: the three of us are woke kings. We don't use

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Speaker 1: the words anymore. But how do you ever like read

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Speaker 1: a tweet or something that has these words in it

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Speaker 1: and find it funny? Like oh, yeah, yeah, okay, we're

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Speaker 1: on the same page about that. I'm asking because I

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Speaker 1: was maybe two years ago. I crashed through the TV

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Speaker 1: show Veep. Oh yeah, incredible show. I remember a specific

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Speaker 1: line that I found hilarious, Like I was laughing for

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Speaker 1: like I had to pause the show to laugh, And

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Speaker 1: I remember thinking like, oh, I don't want anyone to

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Speaker 1: know that I laughed at this.

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Speaker 2: What was the line, Governor, It's so nice for me

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Speaker 2: to come with us, to come for Jonah jonan Oh

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Speaker 2: Ryan has as much chance of becoming president as a

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Speaker 2: stack of retarded raccoons in a trench coat.

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Speaker 1: And it paints such a vivid picture that line.

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Speaker 4: With all of these words, right, like they're able to

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Speaker 4: communicate something so quickly, Like what other words could you

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Speaker 4: put in that place to get that joke across?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the way punchiness of it. Yes, well, I'm

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Speaker 1: only bringing this up for validation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I just want you to tell me that I'm allowed.

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Speaker 1: To laugh at this, Okay, So why is the question?

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Speaker 1: Why do we think this is happening? Why are people

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Speaker 1: using slurs so freely? Again?

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Speaker 6: So, I mean I think it's just kind of a

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Speaker 6: blacklash to a kind of hyper policing of language I've

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Speaker 6: seen in the past, say, fifteen years. I mean it

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Speaker 6: goes back further. I mean, like in the nineties you

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Speaker 6: would hear it as just political correctness. You know, there's

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Speaker 6: a line of acceptability of what's okay to say or

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Speaker 6: not to say. We heard it recently about the election

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Speaker 6: with being told to use the word Latin X or

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Speaker 6: you know, people talk about homelessness or unhoused people and

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Speaker 6: it's like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, people experiencing homelessness.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's these things that are ultimately harmless, but

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Speaker 6: they also don't necessarily do that much to help any

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Speaker 6: maybe disenfranchised groups. If you want to be called this,

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Speaker 6: I'll call you that. If you don't, I'll try not to.

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Speaker 6: I guess there's a pendulum that swings, and you know,

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Speaker 6: it'll go back and forth, and I'm sure we'll see

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Speaker 6: it change again in the future.

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Speaker 1: That to me would mean then that there's kind of

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Speaker 1: like an overlap. There's like people on the left and

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Speaker 1: people on the right, and there's a middle where it's

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Speaker 1: like anti political correctness like groups. Because I'm I'm mostly

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Speaker 1: interested in why people on the left are bringing these

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Speaker 1: words back. I feel like people on the right maybe

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Speaker 1: never stop saying them, or the usage rate dropped, but

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Speaker 1: not all the way. But like people on the left,

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Speaker 1: I feel like it are. That's where I'm like, this

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Speaker 1: is interesting.

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Speaker 7: All right.

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Speaker 1: So we wanted to hear from some people who have

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Speaker 1: been using these words again after not using them for

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Speaker 1: a really long time, and so we did this call

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Speaker 1: out and we got a few responses. I do want

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Speaker 1: to note like how hard it was to get people

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Speaker 1: to agree to do this, Like everyone had a million

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Speaker 1: questions whether they would be anonymous. Who are you telling

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Speaker 1: about this?

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Speaker 4: Which is very interesting, right, because I think it speaks

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Speaker 4: to like to know as earlier point where we are

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Speaker 4: with this, that people are fine using it in their

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Speaker 4: trusted groups, but they don't want to be outed as

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Speaker 4: using it to the public.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that was the prevailing sentiment from everyone who responded,

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Speaker 1: except one person who was like, if I'm going to

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Speaker 1: use these words, you should put my name on this,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm not gonna do that.

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Speaker 3: Maybe a protection.

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Speaker 1: Protection You're.

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Speaker 6: That's interesting.

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Speaker 1: So we'll play a few sound bites of people who

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Speaker 1: sent in some voice notes to us about why they

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Speaker 1: use these words. Again, but one of the responses I

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Speaker 1: got is in text form, and I'll just read that

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Speaker 1: for you guys. I'm gay and a woman. I just

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Speaker 1: want to be clear this is I'm reading. I'm reading

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Speaker 1: someone's response. Let's just the Yeah, I'm gay and a woman.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's funny if I call someone a

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Speaker 1: pussy as a slur, or if I say the word faggot.

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Speaker 1: A few years ago, some of my best friends started

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Speaker 1: to throw around the R word. At first, I was

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Speaker 1: really shocked. I hadn't heard that word in years, I

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Speaker 1: couldn't believe my leftist progressive friends would say that. After

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Speaker 1: a few more times the shot or off, it started

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Speaker 1: to feel normal. I don't freely or openly say it,

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Speaker 1: and if I do slip up, it's definitely with shame,

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Speaker 1: and only around people who have said it first. Some

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Speaker 1: groups of people simply have normalized it, and others continue

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Speaker 1: to think it's extremely offensive, So it's definitely a gamble.

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Speaker 1: In another thing, I think it's become fully divorced from

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Speaker 1: the concept of actual disability, kind of like how on

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Speaker 1: South Park they were all saying the word fagot to

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Speaker 1: talk about motorcycle gangs and fully forgot it refers to

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Speaker 1: gay people. How is it?

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Speaker 8: Do you boys think referring to gay people as fags

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Speaker 8: and today's world is acceptable.

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Speaker 3: Because we're not referring to gay people. You can be

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Speaker 3: gay and not be a fag. Yeah, a lot of

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Speaker 3: fags aren't gay.

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Speaker 7: I happen to be gay. Boys.

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Speaker 3: Do you think I'm a fag?

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Speaker 6: Do you write a big, loud Harley and go up

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Speaker 6: and down the streets ruining everyone's nice time?

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Speaker 3: No, then you're not a fag.

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Speaker 7: I'm a thirty year old white male. But to hear

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Speaker 7: people like project their own moral comp this on you know,

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Speaker 7: so your life is like is like really reductive. It's

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Speaker 7: more reductive than, in my opinion, like saying the thing

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Speaker 7: you know, because it's like, how the fuck do you know?

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Speaker 7: It has been either a white guy telling me that

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Speaker 7: it's like you know, something you've never been through. It's

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Speaker 7: like you neither has have been through it.

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Speaker 2: You know, I am a twenty six year old woman

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Speaker 2: through our private contexts where I'm with my friends and

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Speaker 2: we know each other's values, and I wouldn't be friends

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Speaker 2: with them if I believed like they were bad people

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Speaker 2: who dislike people with disabilities. That word in a way

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Speaker 2: that is very clearly ironic and not in a way

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Speaker 2: that's meant to disparage disable people. It can jopingly come

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Speaker 2: up in like those private spaces, but overall, my feeling

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Speaker 2: is that I just want a word that carries the

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Speaker 2: strength and stupidity and malice of the R word is

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Speaker 2: an ablest and that's something that I hope is introduced

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Speaker 2: into the vernacula at some point.

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Speaker 1: For three guys who are looking for an answer to

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Speaker 1: why people are using these words. Again, we are in

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Speaker 1: luck because after the break, we're going to be talking

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Speaker 1: to someone who did a story about this. All right,

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Speaker 1: we're back. This is Manny.

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Speaker 3: I'm Noah Devin, and we have a.

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Speaker 1: Very special guest. Mia DeGraf, is a deputy executive editor

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Speaker 1: at Business Insider, and she was actually the editor of

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Speaker 1: a piece about this very topic, the return of slurs.

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Speaker 1: And she also happens to be my girlfriend. So there's

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Speaker 1: some light nepotism going on here, but you're actually uniquely

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Speaker 1: qualified to talk about this.

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Speaker 8: Yes, yes I am.

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Speaker 1: Recently, Mia, you put together a story about this very

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Speaker 1: thing that we're talking about, the return of slurs. Tell

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Speaker 1: us how this story came about.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, so I'm on a team that it's you know,

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Speaker 9: I'm a health editor, but our work spans into psychology

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Speaker 9: as well. So a psychology reporter who I was speaking

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Speaker 9: with and she was like, I feel like everyone's saying

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Speaker 9: slurs and it's liberal, lefty people. And I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 9: this is so true, and it's a vibe shift that

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Speaker 9: I think everyone has seen you hear it around. It's

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Speaker 9: like on Twitter, like random people saying it, but I

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Speaker 9: haven't seen like a definitive article that really charts like

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Speaker 9: why this is happening. When this happened, can you measure

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Speaker 9: it in any way? So I was like, great, let's

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Speaker 9: get into it. It took us so long to try

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Speaker 9: and really piece it together because it's so kind of amorphous,

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Speaker 9: like it's just this thing that it's definitely happening and

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Speaker 9: you feel it and you see it, but it's hard

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Speaker 9: to really pinpoint where am why now.

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Speaker 4: It's not like a data point that's like, actually, you

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Speaker 4: know the R word is up.

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Speaker 9: Right well, because all of you know, I've been in

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Speaker 9: a science journalist for like ten years and everything we

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Speaker 9: do is like you know, using studies and data and

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Speaker 9: all that kind of thing, and this is the kind

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Speaker 9: of thing you just can't measure because it a moves

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Speaker 9: so quickly and be it's like really specifically developed online

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Speaker 9: and it's people who you can't really identify who they

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Speaker 9: are or like they because this is what Julia Pukachevski,

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Speaker 9: the psychology reporter who came to me with this idea,

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Speaker 9: and our first port of call was just like calling

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Speaker 9: out to people to be like do you use this?

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Speaker 9: What do you think about it? And I had so

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Speaker 9: many responses. I posted an Instagram story and I had

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Speaker 9: hundreds and I really don't have that many Instagram followers,

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Speaker 9: so this is a high proportion and hundreds of people

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Speaker 9: coming in being like yeah, yeah, I use these sirs

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Speaker 9: and I find it really funny, Like most people who

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Speaker 9: responded to my stories, and these are people who I

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Speaker 9: would not have expected.

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Speaker 4: And I were like, what, like admitting to using it?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, like what words do you use? And they're like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 9: I say things are gay or I use insert random

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Speaker 9: suzz and I'm like why and they're like, because it's funny.

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Speaker 9: And then to each one, I'd be like, oh, can

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Speaker 9: we talk about it like officially and they'd be like.

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Speaker 4: No, that's so similarity to the issue we ran into, right, yeah.

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Speaker 9: This is like and I was like, okay, fine, whatever,

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Speaker 9: And then Julia tweeted about it. Her tweet got screenshotted

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Speaker 9: and meaned and just like she got completely dunked on Twitter,

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Speaker 9: people being like oh you cop and like what's da

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Speaker 9: da da da? But then and so then I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 9: well this is maybe slightly backfiring.

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Speaker 1: I just sent her out into the.

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Speaker 9: But then it was so crazy because she was then

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Speaker 9: showing me like a lot of the people who were

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Speaker 9: donkey on her on Twitter, were then privately dming her

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Speaker 9: being like, I have actually lots of.

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Speaker 6: Thoughts about Oh that's exactly, That's exactly these types of

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Speaker 6: people I'm talking about.

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Speaker 9: So it was interesting, but it was definitely like something

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Speaker 9: that really identified like that something was there because it

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Speaker 9: was something that we'd seen online. I think the real

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Speaker 9: step up for us that made this like a big

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Speaker 9: story is that like movies and stuff there and it's

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Speaker 9: like becoming very mainstream, especially when you see like all

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Speaker 9: of the Democrats like really trying to get in on

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Speaker 9: memes and stuff, and then everyone's trying to use this

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Speaker 9: very like taboo transgressive language. And then Deadpool had a

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Speaker 9: joke about the R word and everyone's like posting about it.

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Speaker 9: I was like, Okay, Ryan Reynolds is making this joke.

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Speaker 9: This is like such an old thing now, so like

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Speaker 9: we must be able to chart this.

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Speaker 1: I can. I cannot bring myself to watch that movie.

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Speaker 1: What is the joke? And you I was not expecting

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Speaker 1: to see you here. I thought you were you know, retired,

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Speaker 1: regarded retired. Oh he pronounced.

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Speaker 9: It pronounced retired to make it sound like the word.

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Speaker 9: And then the guy's like what and then it's like this.

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Speaker 3: Is like when we were in elementary school.

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Speaker 9: And this is the kind of joke that you would

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Speaker 9: get in like a really bad like Seth Rogan movie

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Speaker 9: two thousand and three.

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Speaker 1: Yees, don't disrespect Seth like that. Now this is like

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Speaker 1: a Royan Reynolds movie from the two thousand Reynolds.

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Speaker 9: Still it's like it's swung right back. Oh my god,

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Speaker 9: I could do.

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Speaker 1: This again, blacking. I'm curious, like what were your findings,

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Speaker 1: Like you set out to dive into why this is happening?

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Speaker 1: Is there a real answer?

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Speaker 9: We went through one angle, which is like what is

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Speaker 9: the history of these words? Like when were they starting

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Speaker 9: to be used? So the R word didn't come about

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Speaker 9: as like a slur until like the sixties and seventies,

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Speaker 9: and didn't really step up until like, you know, the nineties.

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Speaker 9: That's where I really got going. But then you can

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Speaker 9: see ways in which things started to get policed, like

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Speaker 9: like very specific ways, Like there was a black Eyed Peas.

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Speaker 1: Song, Oh my, let's get it started.

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Speaker 9: I remembered it as they had changed it because it

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Speaker 9: was offensive.

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Speaker 3: True, Oh that's how I remember it.

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Speaker 1: I just assume that's what it was.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I know they changed it. Because it was going

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Speaker 9: to be in the two thousand and four NBA Finals

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Speaker 9: or something like, they were going to be playing that

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Speaker 9: song and then I guess the networks but like, we

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Speaker 9: can't have that word. So then they did a clean

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Speaker 9: versions and then it made really big news that they'd

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Speaker 9: made a clean version, And it was kind of happening

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Speaker 9: at this time where there was beginning to be these

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Speaker 9: campaigns about whether or not you can use these words,

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Speaker 9: but that actually really turbo charged a conversation about it.

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Speaker 6: I'm curious, like how much of this shift, if you know, like,

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Speaker 6: is it coming from bottom up, from like the people,

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Speaker 6: or is it like kind of mandated by Like it

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Speaker 6: makes sense that the NBA and all these corporate people

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Speaker 6: would want to be very safe, But then does a

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Speaker 6: shift like this where now it's acceptable for the Deadpool

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Speaker 6: movie to have this.

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Speaker 1: Like is that influencing us or are we influencing them?

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Speaker 4: Do you know?

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Speaker 9: Like, I think one of the most interesting things about

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Speaker 9: this is that there are so many more bloodlines, and

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Speaker 9: I think that's actually part of the reason why people

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Speaker 9: really wanted to harness this, like speaking of the bottom

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Speaker 9: of angle. It's like, you know, left wing people being

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Speaker 9: like I don't want you to make any assumptions about

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Speaker 9: who I am just because I look queer or am

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Speaker 9: left wing. All these ideas of the left being like

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Speaker 9: very pedantic and very kind of like gatekeeping what is right,

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Speaker 9: being like, no, I'm actually like I contain multitudes. I

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Speaker 9: guess you know, It's like I could be all different

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Speaker 9: kinds of things. So there is that side of it.

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Speaker 9: But then you know, culture is a circle, so there

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Speaker 9: are like other things like with the NBA finals kind

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Speaker 9: of shifting what that song was and that creating a

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Speaker 9: whole conversation. Like a few years later, there was a

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Speaker 9: legal shift where Obama signed Rosa's Law, which basically meant

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Speaker 9: that you couldn't use the word mental retardation anymore.

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Speaker 10: Now.

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Speaker 5: Roses Law takes the idea a step further. It amends

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Speaker 5: the language and all federal health, education, and labor laws

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Speaker 5: to remove that same phrase and instead refer to Americans

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Speaker 5: living within intellectual disability.

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Speaker 9: That it was basically removing the R word from like

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Speaker 9: standard language, and that was like there was a huge

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Speaker 9: campaign for it, and that actually made this huge shift

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Speaker 9: and it was really part of like you know, the

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Speaker 9: Obama administration and this new kind of woke kind of

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Speaker 9: moment where people were talking about what you should and

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Speaker 9: shouldn't do, what you can and cannot say, you know,

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Speaker 9: and like Obama coming in, everyone's like this is a

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Speaker 9: new era of hope and like and we're doing the

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Speaker 9: right thing. And there was like literal laws being passed

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Speaker 9: that was like we're going to be saying the right

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Speaker 9: thing as well as doing the right thing. So I

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Speaker 9: think there were like some logistical things that are top

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Speaker 9: down as well well.

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Speaker 4: I feel like at a certain point, saying you shouldn't

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Speaker 4: say that thing.

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Speaker 3: Was like radical and wild.

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Speaker 4: Like I remember this is like an early Kanye interview

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Speaker 4: when he's talking about how like in hip hop, like

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Speaker 4: it's cool to like call people gay, and like you

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Speaker 4: see f Wort and he's like, I have a cousin

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Speaker 4: who's gay.

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Speaker 10: It's like I would really discriminate, Like I use the

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Speaker 10: word fact, fact, fact, fact, like.

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Speaker 3: Always a condescendant.

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Speaker 10: I'm my cousin told me that another one of my

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Speaker 10: cousins was gay. And at that point, it's kind of

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Speaker 10: when the turning point where I was like, Yo, this

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Speaker 10: is my cousin. I love him, Like I've been discriminating

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Speaker 10: against gays. It's like do I discriminate against my cousin.

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00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 4: And it's just like this is not at a time

438
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 4: when people were like homophobia and hip hop is like

439
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 4: to be a problem. But at the time, it was

440
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 4: like whoa, Like this dude's radical. He's like pushing against

441
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 4: the green in the same way that he's like I'm

442
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 4: wearing a poet. Yeah.

443
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 6: I was going to say, it makes sense. There's a

444
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 6: lot of other things around him, especially at the time.

445
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 4: But then you know, and the means, why now you

446
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 4: have this opposite of like Okay, if everyone thinks that

447
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 4: that is the acceptable thing to do, then the new

448
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 4: way to stand out is to be like Hitler's actually

449
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 4: kind of cool.

450
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 10: You know.

451
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 6: It's like, what's the I'm supposed to say this out?

452
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 4: Yeah?

453
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, so yeah. I think it was like there was

454
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 9: a shift where everyone started to be like, okay, actually

455
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 9: we wanted to do things differently. And then you have

456
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 9: just the advent of social media, which is huge, and

457
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,159
Speaker 9: like that's around the time of Obama, like you know,

458
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 9: Obama's presidency and that all kicking in and you start

459
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 9: to use Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and all of these spaces

460
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 9: where everyone is getting like instant feedback on things. So

461
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 9: it might be that before, like you know, you're a

462
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 9: high school friends or whatever, you're all kind of hanging

463
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 9: out and everyone's saying stuff in their own little echo

464
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 9: chamber just together, and it's you might find out that

465
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 9: someone didn't think that was cool, like three days later

466
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 9: when like Tom told Dan told you that, like, oh yeah,

467
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 9: she didn't think that was cool or whatever. But now

468
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 9: you're instantly getting people being like, oh yeah, that's awful,

469
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 9: and this instant feedback loop. Who Suddenly people are like

470
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 9: really second guessing themselves and starting to just kind of

471
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 9: expand their perspective of like people as well. Like being

472
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 9: on my I was exposed to so many more people.

473
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 9: You know, you start to really see different people's experiences

474
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 9: and perspectives way more.

475
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 7: So.

476
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,440
Speaker 9: I think that actually created this Like that was something

477
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 9: that we found through reporting the story, through speaking to experts,

478
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 9: they can really pinpoint that, like twenty ten to twenty twelve,

479
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 9: there was a real shift in terms of people being like, oh,

480
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 9: I can't just say this stuff and it has no ramifications.

481
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: Okay, So we're seeing how the return of slurs is

482
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: kind of a response or over correction of the sensitivity

483
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: levels of the twenty tens, you've got the Black Eyed

484
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: peas in the NBA, You've got Obama leading the effort

485
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: of getting the R word out of medicine. Social media

486
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: appears and it opens people up to these new perspectives

487
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: and then people are kind of just revolting against this

488
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: after that. But the piece also talks about the Red

489
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: Scare podcast and the effect that it probably had on

490
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: the return of slurs. Like, we in this room know

491
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 1: what that show is, but for people who don't, can

492
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 1: you just take us down that path a bit?

493
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 9: Yeah, the red Scare is something that's come up with

494
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 9: literally anyone everyone we've spoken to about this pretty much.

495
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 9: I mean some people not, but like most people who

496
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 9: are like liberal online people were like, oh, well, obviously

497
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 9: the red Scare.

498
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, I guess I'd like to take a hard line

499
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 8: right now and say that I think it's fine to

500
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 8: say retarded, and that everyone who thinks it's not fine

501
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 8: to say retarded it's probably pretty retarded.

502
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 9: So the Red Scare was this podcast. It's two women

503
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 9: who turned themselves as bohemian layabouts. They're kind of like

504
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 9: really capture what you would call the bag left, where

505
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 9: they're kind of like coming at things from a socialist

506
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 9: perspective and really taking issue with like the centrist part

507
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 9: of the Democrat Party that's like these kind of really polished,

508
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 9: flashy people who are also like raging war in the

509
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 9: Middle East and stuff. So they're like, you've got these

510
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 9: kind of liberal coded ideals and your winning elections, but

511
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 9: are you actually championing rights for like working people and stuff.

512
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 9: So that was kind of how they built up. They

513
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 9: started in twenty eighteen, but they really exploded in twenty

514
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 9: twenty during COVID, where everyone's like sitting around and also

515
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 9: feeling very frustrated, like you have all of these like

516
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 9: big political things that are bubbling up, and they're actually

517
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 9: just like speaking about it in a very kind of

518
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 9: like lay about like kind of refreshing way, because you know,

519
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 9: everyone suddenly at home and we're all laying about, you know, like,

520
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 9: so they're talking about things, but they were doing this

521
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 9: kind of thing that was this like transgressive language. They

522
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 9: were just dropping the art word left and right and

523
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 9: being and openly defending it, being like, I don't need

524
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 9: to be polished, I don't need what you think. I'm

525
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 9: a perfect liberal, so I wouldn't say.

526
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 8: This Dasha, you were making the point that retard is

527
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 8: a descriptive, not an invaliative. Yeahfuire, It's not like saying

528
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 8: the N word or the F word.

529
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: It's a word that describes what it means.

530
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 8: Yeah.

531
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: So a lot of people and who responded to your

532
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: survey cited them as like inspiration for why they are

533
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 1: using slurs.

534
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 9: Well, it's really tricky, actually, I think anyone with language,

535
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 9: like it's hard to identity exactly when you started using

536
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,239
Speaker 9: a word or how you could try to construct it.

537
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 9: But I think ultimately people people would just say like, oh,

538
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 9: well remember that, like it kind of lives in the

539
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 9: same world as that. So it was definitely like a

540
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 9: point that people would cite as like, oh that existed,

541
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 9: And that's definitely a part of my understanding of this

542
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 9: word of it coming back. But a lot of people,

543
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 9: like I said, we had over one hundred people in

544
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 9: the survey, Yeah, like it came up a lot interesting

545
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 9: And there was Chapo trap House as well, it's another

546
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 9: dirtbag left podcast, Yeah, where they would just use these

547
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 9: words kind of being like the whole identity of a

548
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 9: podcast is that they're liberal, so they're using these words

549
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 9: as kind of like a taboo type thing, and it really,

550
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 9: I mean it gained traction because I think taboo can

551
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 9: feel very refreshing sometimes true, but also just like you know,

552
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 9: you're not meant to say it. So people are people

553
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 9: online and stuff are just drawn to taboo. Yeah, And

554
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 9: I find this at like in my work where I

555
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,479
Speaker 9: like work at a digital media company and it's like

556
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 9: metrics based. You're kind of looking at how many clicks

557
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 9: each story is getting and what engagement each story is getting,

558
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 9: and every single time if you have a taboo, like

559
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 9: I work on health, if we write a story about poop,

560
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 9: like the numbers.

561
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: Are crazy, I'm clicking on that.

562
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 9: But it's like we did just we didn't want a

563
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 9: story about a marathon runo who pooped herself while she

564
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 9: was running and there was a fox, and like it's

565
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 9: still the highest red story I've ever published, which is cities.

566
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 9: I think that's like a aside, but like people are

567
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 9: really drawn to taboo and it feels like, oh, it's

568
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 9: something I shouldn't do.

569
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: But I'm online and it was a thrill.

570
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, and it's private, like this red Scare podcast is

571
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 9: just on it's like it's in your ears. You feel

572
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 9: like you're sitting with them talking and they're just saying

573
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 9: it to you. Yeah, it doesn't feel like it's a

574
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 9: big public thing.

575
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 4: It's like your social circles that like, you know, hopefully

576
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 4: people feel like they're part of our social circle.

577
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 3: Yes, right, yeah, so it's like your friends.

578
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 4: It feels like your friends are using it, so you

579
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 4: may be more open to using it.

580
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 3: Wow.

581
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: Well, I feel like we have learned so much. Thank

582
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us, Thanks for having me. Yeah,

583
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: thank you, and I'll see you later. All right, So

584
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: we just talked to Mia. We learned a lot about

585
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: why slurs have returned. Curious, like where do we where

586
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: do we go from here? Do you think they kind

587
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: of stick around as this kind of fad or do

588
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: they go away soon? Is this like a pendulum? Like

589
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: where do where do you guys land on this?

590
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 4: I think it's going to be like we're you know,

591
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 4: we got another Trump presidency, So I think it's going

592
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 4: to be I think we're going to see things continueing

593
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 4: swing in this direction for a bit. And I think,

594
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 4: like all things, it's going to get old. And I

595
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 4: think it's already getting pretty old quickly. But I think

596
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 4: it's not going to be this shock value that people

597
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 4: think it is right now, and then it's going to

598
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 4: get less interesting for people to be able to use it.

599
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 7: Yeah.

600
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 6: I think as much as maybe the war on wokeness

601
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 6: has been won for the moment, I think it'll just

602
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 6: take different forms, both pro and anti, and that you know,

603
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 6: like me, as a guy in my thirties who never

604
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 6: really said these words, I'm I'm not really.

605
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 3: Going to adopt them now.

606
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 6: That would seem to be it would just be kind

607
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 6: of strange and and you'd be flacing. I mean, it

608
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 6: comes off as pretty try hard and like, yeah, you're

609
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 6: like regardless, you're trying to just be insulting. I guess

610
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 6: so for me my day to day, it's not going

611
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 6: to change anything.

612
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if like some of these words, like

613
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 1: not like slurs, but like a word like gay, Like

614
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: I see a lot of straight people saying things are

615
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: gay now, and I think that's probably gonna stick around

616
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: in the sense that like the power of the word

617
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 1: is lost. I saw Ice Spice posted this meme that

618
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,959
Speaker 1: had the effort on it and then like very shortly

619
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: afterwards deleted it. So I wonder if like you still

620
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: can't be like a celebrity and doing it, or you

621
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: can but people call you out. You've got to be

622
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: like a pretty specific celebrity like Andrew Tate X. Yes, right,

623
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: so yeah, you're either like you're either queer or you

624
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: hate women. This was No such thing by Many, Noah

625
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: and Devin. Our guest today was Mia de Groff, deputy

626
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: executive editor at Business Insider. The theme song was produced

627
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: by me Many. Please visit us at No Such Thing

628
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: dot Show, where you can subscribe to our newsletter for updates,

629
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 1: and consider leaving us a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,

630
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to our show. Next week on

631
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: No Such.

632
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 4: Thing, So, we're doing a podcast about whether or not

633
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 4: horses love running.

634
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 3: Okay,