Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace
Speaker 1: and it's Friday night. You know what that means. I've
Speaker 1: got a Friday Night special for you. Delphi killer Richard Allen.
Speaker 1: The evidence just keeps piling up. We're learning things now.
Speaker 1: We didn't hear it trial. Now what will all the
Speaker 1: haters say, all the trolls online that said the jury
Speaker 1: got it wrong, the judge was wrong, the prosecutors were wrong.
Speaker 1: The victims' families, Oh, they were wrong. Susan Hendrix, who
Speaker 1: covered the case, she was wrong. I'm wrong. Everybody's wrong,
Speaker 1: and Richard Allen is right. Not so quick tonight, we're
Speaker 1: learning about chilling comments Richard Allen made after Liberty and
Speaker 1: were killed, murdered, and before he was arrested to an individual,
Speaker 1: a witness that you would think would do anything to
Speaker 1: cover for Richard Allen, her own son. I mean, see, Grace,
Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
Speaker 1: being with us. Convicted Delphi double killer Richard Allen, local
Speaker 1: pharmacy techt makes chilling statements to his own mother after
Speaker 1: he murders Libby and Abby and before long before he
Speaker 1: is arrested. Of course, when the two best friends, Abby
Speaker 1: and Libby didn't come home from the local hiking trail.
Speaker 1: Delphi residents dropped everything they were doing to help find
Speaker 1: the girls, and then their worst nightmares came true. The girls'
Speaker 1: bodies mutilated were discovered in the woods the next day.
Speaker 1: But now we learn one person, a forty five year
Speaker 1: old pharmacy tech, a husband, a father, a son, was
Speaker 1: making really weird comments about the murders and trying to
Speaker 1: talk his own relatives out of joining the searches. I
Speaker 1: didn't know that at trial. This is all new, and
Speaker 1: we're learning it all from a brand new book, Shadow
Speaker 1: of the Bridge, The Delphi Murders, and the Dark Side
Speaker 1: of the American Heartland. What did Richard Allen say to
Speaker 1: his mother after the murders and before long before he
Speaker 1: was arrested a few days after Libby and Abbey were murdered,
Speaker 1: Janice Allan, Richard Allen's mother, got a very odd call
Speaker 1: from her son, Chard Allan, and out of the blue,
Speaker 1: sounding very nervous, he says, quote, they're going to pend
Speaker 1: this on me. Why would he say that right after
Speaker 1: the murders. He wasn't even a suspect. He told his
Speaker 1: mother that he had been on the trails the day
Speaker 1: the girls were murdered and had been smoking a cigarette,
Speaker 1: and he came up with this elaborate theory that investigators
Speaker 1: would find the cigarette butt, get his DNA off it,
Speaker 1: and use that to tie him to the crime scene. Now,
Speaker 1: his mother later told this to police, and she says
Speaker 1: she found it very odd, but she kept it to
Speaker 1: herself for years. How did we get here? The killer
Speaker 1: was right under everybody's nose, literally in the center of town.
Speaker 1: First of all, take a listen to our friends at WHR.
Speaker 2: We know Richard Allen worked as a licensed farming tech
Speaker 2: at this CVS here in Delphi. But many continue to
Speaker 2: ask and wonder how a man now charged with two
Speaker 2: counts of murder managed to stay under the radar in
Speaker 2: a town of about three thousand people. Those who live
Speaker 2: in Delphi are still trying to cope with news that
Speaker 2: Richard Allen is the man police say murdered Abby Williams
Speaker 2: and Libby Jerman.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the day after Halloween, but it is.
Speaker 1: It's a little eerie.
Speaker 2: And tense in downtown Delphi on the Square, businesses like
Speaker 2: the Office Tavern put up a new sign on their
Speaker 2: door reading no media aloud. They weren't the only ones.
Speaker 2: Country Hair also had a sign off camera. One business
Speaker 2: owner Total thirteen news. The community is still in shock.
Speaker 1: Even the girls' families grappling with the reality that their
Speaker 1: girls a murderer, brutal murderer. Remember, according to one released affidavit,
Speaker 1: there were copious amounts of blood at the scene. These
Speaker 1: two little girls, libbyan Abbey had their throats slit. They
Speaker 1: are grappling with the reality that the killer was right
Speaker 1: under their nose. Take a listen to Fox fifty nine.
Speaker 3: They're also facing a harsh reality that Richard Allen was
Speaker 3: living amongst them the whole time.
Speaker 4: I don't know the gentleman.
Speaker 5: Personally at all, you know, so I probably seen him,
Speaker 5: but you know, it's a small county, you know, but
Speaker 5: definitely don't. I don't know him.
Speaker 3: One of the most chilling revelations was that Becky said Alan,
Speaker 3: who worked at a local CBS, had printed off pictures
Speaker 3: for the girls's funeral, leaving the family to wonder how
Speaker 3: did nobody know?
Speaker 1: When the family says we didn't know him, that's like
Speaker 1: you don't know your mailman. You don't know the guy
Speaker 1: at McDonald's. It gives you a large coffee with two
Speaker 1: creams in it every morning. You don't know the neighbor
Speaker 1: three doors down, but you do. Again, thank you for
Speaker 1: being with us as we are struggling with the reality
Speaker 1: that a double killer, according to police, was right there
Speaker 1: saying good morning. How can I help you every single
Speaker 1: day to practiculally everybody in town To Cheryl McCollum joining me,
Speaker 1: Founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, isn't
Speaker 1: the CVS right in the middle of.
Speaker 6: Town, Right in the middle of town.
Speaker 7: If you take the CBS and make it the center
Speaker 7: of a wheel with spokes, you get to the high school,
Speaker 7: you get to the middle school, you get to the bridge.
Speaker 7: Everywhere is centered from downtown.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I know our pharmacists because the twins
Speaker 1: are so sick when they were little, we were in
Speaker 1: there all the time. I know them. They're families through pictures.
Speaker 1: Everybody that works there. You get to know your pharmacist,
Speaker 1: and this local pharmacy tech seemingly dealt with everybody in town.
Speaker 1: Joining me right now. Max Lewis with Fox fifty nine.
Speaker 1: You can find him on insta at Max Lewis TV.
Speaker 1: Max thank you for being with us. I guess the
Speaker 1: town is stunned right now because in one picture he's
Speaker 1: at a bar, what was it, J and hc ands
Speaker 1: bar and grill. He's sitting right there living it up,
Speaker 1: and right behind him on the wall is his composite. Yeah.
Speaker 8: I mean people were just when we heard about it,
Speaker 8: we saw this picture, we saw who he was. People
Speaker 8: were stunned. Five and a half years they've been investigating
Speaker 8: this and this guy has been living amongst them the
Speaker 8: whole time. He's been filling their prescriptions, they' printing off
Speaker 8: photos form at CBS, and nobody saw anything. I think
Speaker 8: that's sort of what the family was saying there. And
Speaker 8: what a whole lot of people have told me is
Speaker 8: really nobody saw this guy. Nobody looked at the sketch
Speaker 8: and thought maybe it was him or anything like that.
Speaker 8: I mean, it was just sort of really shocking.
Speaker 1: Right now, the shock factor. And I'll tell you what
Speaker 1: I think, and this is from having handle cases where
Speaker 1: the killer was right there in the community the whole time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we all looked at the possibility it was a transient.
Speaker 1: But Cheryl McComb, you and I agreed on day one,
Speaker 1: this was no transient. Right day one, you and.
Speaker 6: I said it, and we never wavered from it. We
Speaker 6: even said he would be within five miles and there
Speaker 6: once I got to Delphi and we saw where the
Speaker 6: bridge was, I mean that to me, I was like,
Speaker 6: he's even closer than I think.
Speaker 1: And remember the guy the catfisher was Keegan kleinb Gosh
Speaker 1: I not now I know their names by heart. Keegan
Speaker 1: Kline was a perv, pasty looking dude, middle age. I
Speaker 1: think he is anyway, using a screenshot Anthony shots of
Speaker 1: a Justin Bieber looking aline trying to lure young girls.
Speaker 1: And he was talking to them just a day or
Speaker 1: two before and maybe the day of. But he lives
Speaker 1: like thirty sixty miles away, and you and I thought, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's tempting, it's really tempting. But the distance didn't fit
Speaker 1: to us, because who would know to go to that
Speaker 1: dirt road, to that particular trail, to that trestle bridge
Speaker 1: and then down to a bottleneck tape forced the girls
Speaker 1: down to where they really couldn't get away and murder them.
Speaker 1: Had to be a local.
Speaker 6: It had to be a local with intimate knowledge, because
Speaker 6: even where they crossed the creek that's where the creek
Speaker 6: was shallow. Other parts of it are waist deep.
Speaker 1: This person knew Hold on, wait a minute, I'm trying
Speaker 1: to drink him. What you're saying parts of the creek shallow,
Speaker 1: other parts waste deep, and that factored into it. It
Speaker 1: absolutely did. Why are you saying that, because again.
Speaker 6: This person would have to know that if you and
Speaker 6: I just were visiting that area, we would know where
Speaker 6: to cross that creek and again waist high, chest high
Speaker 6: in some places that has been raining, but he knew
Speaker 6: right where to cross where it was less than ankle deep.
Speaker 1: And Max Lewis Fox fifty nine joining us, He's been
Speaker 1: all over this, Max Lewis. The thing is the killer
Speaker 1: would know, and you've been to that trestle Bridge times.
Speaker 1: The killer would have to know that there were other
Speaker 1: people that were in that I'm going to call it
Speaker 1: a park, it's more like a hiking area, and where
Speaker 1: he killed them, other people would not be able to
Speaker 1: see what was going on, even though they could be
Speaker 1: walking around in the hiking area.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and you know, yeah, this is a very well
Speaker 8: traveled area, So I mean, it's hard to believe that
Speaker 8: nobody would have seen them. That may be where the
Speaker 8: sort of you remember that that chilling audio recording the
Speaker 8: down the hill. You know, we don't necessarily know, you know,
Speaker 8: if he is the bridge guy per se. You know
Speaker 8: that's still they're holding everything close to the best at
Speaker 8: this point.
Speaker 1: Okay, wait, wait, well woa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop
Speaker 1: the train, Max Lewis, Let's follow that theory to its
Speaker 1: logical conclusion, and that would be that there were two killers.
Speaker 1: That one guy lured them down, the so called bridge guy,
Speaker 1: and then Richard Allen raped and murdered them. I find
Speaker 1: that hard to believe. My mind is still open. But
Speaker 1: is that you're suggesting?
Speaker 8: Well, that seems to be somewhat of the indication that
Speaker 8: we are getting at this point, because they do reddit. No, no,
Speaker 8: we're getting that from the way they're handling this. They
Speaker 8: steal those documents, they say, this investigation is ongoing. What
Speaker 8: more than they need? If they have their guide they've
Speaker 8: made and the rest they found a probable concept of David,
Speaker 8: what more.
Speaker 9: Do they need?
Speaker 1: Cheryl mc coombs, straighten it out, woman.
Speaker 6: There's a great possibility there are additional victims. So they
Speaker 6: are going to connect every dot they possibly can. This
Speaker 6: investigation does not end, and arrest in a great world
Speaker 6: is where it starts.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you really think I'm not picking on you,
Speaker 1: Max Lewis, You're the messenger, Okay, but do you really
Speaker 1: think this guy went from zero to one twenty mph
Speaker 1: in one day? Because I don't even when a sports car,
Speaker 1: it takes a minute to heat up. So I'm not
Speaker 1: buying it. I think what Cheryl mccoum just said is right.
Speaker 1: I think a law enforcement are looking for other young
Speaker 1: girl victims. Were they sex assaulted, were they threatened, did
Speaker 1: they feel threatened? And for people that may have helped
Speaker 1: him cover up this crime. Back to who is this guy?
Speaker 1: Take a listen now to this.
Speaker 3: Before moving to DOLPHI, he lived in this home with
Speaker 3: his wife and daughter.
Speaker 1: According to neighbors, David.
Speaker 3: Yoder lived across the street but has known Allan since
Speaker 3: he was born and grew up with his dad.
Speaker 4: I mean, I would have never thought living crossed the
Speaker 4: road from him, there's anything, that's.
Speaker 1: Where we're setting my kids due if there had been
Speaker 1: any trouble.
Speaker 3: But after hearing, Allan was arrested in charge with killing
Speaker 3: Abby Williams and Libby Jerman. He's now questioning if he
Speaker 3: really knew him.
Speaker 1: It's just hard to believe. He's a heck of a
Speaker 1: nice guy, always has been. Heck of a nice guy,
Speaker 1: always has been. Well, you know what they said that
Speaker 1: about Joseph DiAngelo, the Golden State Killer. In fact, he
Speaker 1: had even been a cop. He was in Oxford, California.
Speaker 1: They said the same thing about the dog catcher, which
Speaker 1: makes me suspicious that get go who wants to catch
Speaker 1: dogs and put them to debt? Not me BTK buying,
Speaker 1: torture kill. Dennis Rader, deacon at the church, freak, complete
Speaker 1: total freak. After he would murder people in his community
Speaker 1: on his dog catching route, he would then redress them
Speaker 1: and put makeup on them and pose them. Let that
Speaker 1: sink in. Everybody thought he was a nice, upstanding guy too.
Speaker 1: And of course I'm just going to go out on
Speaker 1: a limb. Scott Peterson. And yes, I know there was
Speaker 1: a cable TV entertainment program suggesting that Scott Peterson is innocent.
Speaker 1: He's not. He's guilty. He murdered Lacy and Connor. And
Speaker 1: you can throw all the hate at me you want to,
Speaker 1: but that is the truth. I was in the trial.
Speaker 1: Were you bet you weren't. If you believe everything somebody
Speaker 1: is paid to create to convince you to get rating,
Speaker 1: you're barking up the wrong tree. So I'm gonna throw
Speaker 1: Scott Peterson in there too. Crime stories with Nancy Grace
Speaker 1: chilling comments come to light, comments made by double killer
Speaker 1: Richard Allen. I wonder what all the trolls are gonna
Speaker 1: have to say about this. Why would Richard Allen, after
Speaker 1: the girls are murdered, and long before he's arrested, say
Speaker 1: they're gonna pend this on me. They're gonna pend this
Speaker 1: on me. I had a cigarette out there on the trail.
Speaker 1: I was there that day. Why would you say all
Speaker 1: that to your mom? The mom who, by the way,
Speaker 1: kept it to herself for years, but when her son
Speaker 1: was arrested, she recalled the strange conversation she actually told police.
Speaker 1: We also learn that that conversation it stuck in her
Speaker 1: mind to the point that years later she brought it up.
Speaker 1: Now many would argue that circumstantial evidence and that's not
Speaker 1: enough for a conviction. But it's just more and more
Speaker 1: brick in the wall. What more do we know about
Speaker 1: the murders? David Yoder grew up with Richard Allen as
Speaker 1: a child and was his neighbor for years and years.
Speaker 1: And you just heard him say two Max, if my
Speaker 1: children are in trouble, I tell him to run over there.
Speaker 1: That's how much he trusts trusted Richard Allen. David Yoder,
Speaker 1: thank you for being with user. Okay, tell me, Davy Yoder,
Speaker 1: don't leave anything out. What do you recall growing up
Speaker 1: with Richard Allen? I grew up with a little girl
Speaker 1: named Joy Jones. Connie Joy Jones lived across the street.
Speaker 1: They had four children, one was the same age of
Speaker 1: each of us, and it was wonderful. Still friends after
Speaker 1: all that time, she says. The first time she met me,
Speaker 1: I came to her door unannounced or uninvited. They opened
Speaker 1: the door and I said, Matt, please have Ticky. That's
Speaker 1: how that friendship started. Tell me about Richard Allen, Well.
Speaker 4: He was a good kid growing up. I mean, never
Speaker 4: in any trouble. They were a good family. His dad
Speaker 4: is a friend of mine. Uh he uh, there's just
Speaker 4: good people all around, good people. They're very smart people.
Speaker 4: His Grandpaul was the principal at my grade school and
Speaker 4: a teacher. Uh that there's just a good family all around,
Speaker 4: good family, and I just a shock to think that rec.
Speaker 1: Could do something like this. But it's just it's just
Speaker 1: a shock.
Speaker 3: Like I said, I would have sent my kids over
Speaker 3: there to a safe.
Speaker 4: House, over to him if I had to, you know,
Speaker 4: to go there if there was any problems and I
Speaker 4: wasn't home or something.
Speaker 1: Well. I feel the same way about Connie Joey Jones.
Speaker 1: If somebody told me Connie Joy Jones aka Joy Jones
Speaker 1: committed a double murder much less on children, I'd say
Speaker 1: no way. I'd go to court and go under oath
Speaker 1: and talk about what a great person she was and
Speaker 1: is and has been alone with my children, and I
Speaker 1: would have her be alone with them again. I know
Speaker 1: what you're saying. What is his character? You keep saying
Speaker 1: a good guy? What do you mean by that? He
Speaker 1: never once shotlifted, he never spent, he never took a
Speaker 1: pack of gun from the store, nothing.
Speaker 4: He always spoke, He was real nice, cordial, never disrespected me.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm older than he is several years.
Speaker 8: He was better friends with his dad than him, But
Speaker 8: I will growing up.
Speaker 1: How much older are you, Dan, Richard Allen, I'm fifty
Speaker 1: eight and Alan is fifty right, Okay, eighteen years fifty,
Speaker 1: so somewhere now when you say, good guy, How did
Speaker 1: he do in school? Did he play a sport?
Speaker 4: Not so much an athlete?
Speaker 1: No, what did he do? I don't know just what
Speaker 1: to school.
Speaker 4: I wasn't with him in school. His dad I was.
Speaker 4: Is that who you're talking about?
Speaker 1: No, I'm talking about Richard Allen. I'm not as interested
Speaker 1: in his parents Richard.
Speaker 4: I was out of school when Richard went to school.
Speaker 4: I mean, I was eighteen years old than he was.
Speaker 4: He's young enough to be my kid.
Speaker 1: And never a bit of trouble when he was growing up.
Speaker 1: That is, he brothers and sisters. He's got one sister.
Speaker 1: Where does she live.
Speaker 9: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I lost track of her a long time ago. I mean,
Speaker 4: and I have Richard too. He moved away from here.
Speaker 4: I just kind of lost track of him.
Speaker 1: Talking about Richard Allen, neighbors that actually grew up with
Speaker 1: him saw him grow up as a child like David
Speaker 1: Yoder or having a hard time taking in that he
Speaker 1: is now charged with double murderer David Yoder. What did
Speaker 1: you think when you learned that cops have arrested Richard
Speaker 1: Allen for the murders of Abby and Libby first starting
Speaker 1: on through my minders, No way, No Way, David Yoder
Speaker 1: says he is absolutely shocked that a boy he knew
Speaker 1: his entire childhood, all the way through growing up and
Speaker 1: moving away as an adult, is responsible for such a
Speaker 1: gruesome sex attack we believe, and double murder we believe
Speaker 1: by knife. I don't know. I have to ask a
Speaker 1: shrink Karen Stark about this, but the thought of putting
Speaker 1: a knife to a little girl's throat is just it's
Speaker 1: it's repulsive. I don't even want to think about it.
Speaker 1: But a little digging does reveal a tiny lip. Take
Speaker 1: a listen to our friend Max at Fox fifty nine.
Speaker 3: Alan has no criminal history, but Carol County Dispatch records
Speaker 3: show he had one encounter with police in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 3: The sheriff said it was a domestic issue where Allan
Speaker 3: was supposedly drunk and his wife took him to a
Speaker 3: lit hospital. No law enforcement action was taken, but deputies
Speaker 3: were sent to his del Phi home to quote, keep
Speaker 3: the peace.
Speaker 1: Okay, Max a little. So far, the cops haven't come
Speaker 1: to our home to keep the peace, and nobody's been
Speaker 1: carted off to the emergency room drunk as a skunk?
Speaker 1: So what do we know about what happened?
Speaker 8: They were providing a whole lot of clarification about that.
Speaker 8: You know, it sounds like there was you know, as
Speaker 8: I said, there there was a domestic situation. When I
Speaker 8: asked the shriff, who's the domestic station situation between he
Speaker 8: wouldn't tell me. So, you know, I am a little
Speaker 8: suspect of this, but you know that was But it's
Speaker 8: also the only other thing I ever founded him. I mean,
Speaker 8: you saw, I went to his hometown, looked through his
Speaker 8: criminal background. That's the only thing we found about him.
Speaker 8: And it did happen at three o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 8: So you know, I'll leave that for you guys to
Speaker 8: decide what you want to think about.
Speaker 1: That, and I certainly will I certainly will dis say
Speaker 1: that who is up causing a ruck as drunk as
Speaker 1: a skunk at three am? That's not good to Fran Longwell,
Speaker 1: former Deputy State's Attorney in Calvert County, former Assistant State's
Speaker 1: Attorney and Prince George specializing and homicides and other related crimes.
Speaker 1: Fran thank you for being with us. What do you
Speaker 1: make of this prior arrest the prior arrest.
Speaker 5: I think it shows in my opinion that he does
Speaker 5: have some type of violence streak in him.
Speaker 8: But I kind of agree with you.
Speaker 5: Nancy, that this didn't start from zero to what happened
Speaker 5: to these little girls. I'm just concerned that we're going
Speaker 5: to find other victims, or we're going to find other
Speaker 5: other kids that have been abused by this guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, why are you saying that, Cheryl McCombe. What leads
Speaker 1: you to that speculation? But by the way, I agree.
Speaker 6: With you, Well, I mean, again, broad daylight, two victims
Speaker 6: with other people around, a victim that clearly has a
Speaker 6: cell phone, that is high risk. You're talking about somebody
Speaker 6: on the bridge that's, you know, eighty feet behind the
Speaker 6: air and has boards missing, and everything he did was
Speaker 6: so risky. It tells me that ain't his first rodeo.
Speaker 6: And I want to say one more thing. When I was.
Speaker 10: Listening to the neighbors speak, and I think people need
Speaker 10: to understand when you look at a case like this
Speaker 10: and you're only thinking from your vantage point, you can't
Speaker 10: possibly accept.
Speaker 6: It or understand it. But when you talk to criminologists
Speaker 6: like you and I, Nancy, we talked probably their throats
Speaker 6: were slash, they were posed, they were staged. Things were
Speaker 6: probably done there, whether it's a carving or some sort
Speaker 6: of ritual if you look at it. If this was
Speaker 6: my case, one of the first things I would do
Speaker 6: is go to CBS and see if there's a camera
Speaker 6: in the girls restaurant.
Speaker 1: Well, that's funny you would say that, because after our
Speaker 1: investigating a case in chief, the very next thing I
Speaker 1: would do is start looking for similar transactions. But you
Speaker 1: said it so much more descriptively than I did. Because
Speaker 1: a crime like this that there has got to be
Speaker 1: some prior not necessarily Scott Peterson type case where that
Speaker 1: is a domestic homicide. He hasn't had another wife to
Speaker 1: kill in a case like this. However, these are not
Speaker 1: his children, so although he does have a daughter near
Speaker 1: their age, that tells me there are very likely other victims.
Speaker 1: And I agree with you three hundred percent. Now, what
Speaker 1: do we know about a twelve plus hour search of
Speaker 1: his home. Something in that home led them to ultimately
Speaker 1: arrest the local pharmacists that tech Richard Allen. Take a
Speaker 1: listen to our cut eighty three our friends at crime
Speaker 1: Online and first our friend Lindsay stone Box fifty nine.
Speaker 11: Richard Allen was not a stranger to this community. Information
Speaker 11: uncovered by our RUSSA quaid from sources with knowledge of
Speaker 11: the investigation. He even came forward in the early days
Speaker 11: of the investigation as a witness from the moment high Bridge,
Speaker 11: the day Abbey and Libby were killed in February of
Speaker 11: twenty seventeen. Now, at the time, any inquiry did not
Speaker 11: reveal the need for further investigation. However, his name surfaced
Speaker 11: again recently. A search form was issued at his house
Speaker 11: two weeks ago and revealed evidence reportedly linking him to
Speaker 11: the deaths.
Speaker 12: Ten days before the arrest of murder suspect Richard Allen,
Speaker 12: police officers extensively searched the fifty year old's home. Neighbors
Speaker 12: tell the New York Posts the non uniformed officers were
Speaker 12: on the property for about twelve hours. During the search
Speaker 12: of the property, Allen chairs with his wife.
Speaker 1: Officers were seen.
Speaker 12: Quote snooping a lot around the fire pit and at
Speaker 12: the backyard. A neighbor describes quote lots of flashlights, lots
Speaker 12: of pictures, lots of sifting unquote in that area. The
Speaker 12: source says that it was odd for them to be
Speaker 12: in that area, as the Allens were never observed burning things.
Speaker 12: The neighbor also said when police arrived at the property,
Speaker 12: no one suspected that there would be a.
Speaker 1: Connection to the murders of Living and Abbey. What are
Speaker 1: they looking for? What were they looking for? If the
Speaker 1: Allens really didn't use the fire pit, then what were
Speaker 1: they digging around for? Could have anything to do with
Speaker 1: blood evidence and there will be blood evidence marked my words.
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at WISH.
Speaker 13: This nine page request for a search warrant filed March
Speaker 13: seventeenth of twenty seventeen. Now that's a little more than
Speaker 13: a month after Libby Jerman and Abby Williams were found
Speaker 13: murdered in Delphi. This disturbing document, for the first time
Speaker 13: gives us an investigator's description of the crime scene and
Speaker 13: what the suspect may have taken with him. The document,
Speaker 13: written by an FBI agent, describes what investigators found when
Speaker 13: they discovered the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German
Speaker 13: on February fourteenth. The agent writes a large amount of
Speaker 13: blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene.
Speaker 13: Because of the nature of the victim's wounds, it is
Speaker 13: nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten
Speaker 13: blood on his person or clothing.
Speaker 1: Straight out to Fox fifty nine's Max Lewis, all of
Speaker 1: that together, let's make sense of it. Number one, A
Speaker 1: twelve plus hour search of Richard Allen's home. A few
Speaker 1: days later, they come back and arrest him. They're digging
Speaker 1: around a very unused fire pit with disturbed earth near by.
Speaker 1: We know there's blood evidence. And also did you hear
Speaker 1: that that he actually came forward as a witness in
Speaker 1: the early days of the investigation.
Speaker 8: Yeah, he from what we have heard from our sources.
Speaker 8: You know, he you know, walked up and volunteered to
Speaker 8: police and said, hey, you know, I was up there.
Speaker 8: I didn't really see anything, but you know I can
Speaker 8: tell you, you know, whatever you need.
Speaker 9: To know or whatever.
Speaker 8: So, you know, that's sort of another amazing thing. And
Speaker 8: he was sort of brushed off and not really given
Speaker 8: a whole lot of thought to as far as the
Speaker 8: search goes on his house. Yeah, they were neighbors told
Speaker 8: us they were searching around there, digging in the backyard,
Speaker 8: digging in a fire pit. Makes you wonder what was
Speaker 8: in that fire pit? Was he trying to get rid
Speaker 8: of something, you know, what was going on back There
Speaker 8: so many, so many unanswered questions about this, but it
Speaker 8: all doesn't look good.
Speaker 1: I want to circle back to what you just said.
Speaker 1: Tell me again. Max Slow is joining us from Fox
Speaker 1: fifty nine, who's been on the case from the very
Speaker 1: very beginning. You stayed at the in the initial days
Speaker 1: of the investigation that Richard Allen went to police and
Speaker 1: said I was there and offered himself up as a witness.
Speaker 8: That's right, he was, you know, on he said he
Speaker 8: was on the trail that day. And I'm not exactly
Speaker 8: sure how the encounter happened if he was, you know,
Speaker 8: if police came upon him and started, you know, asking him,
Speaker 8: or if he just walked up to them and said, hey,
Speaker 8: I was here, didn't see anything. But you know, I
Speaker 8: can help you with what you need to know. But
Speaker 8: we do know that he was interviewed by police in
Speaker 8: the days after Abby and Libby first disappeared and then
Speaker 8: were found murdered.
Speaker 1: To Karen started joining me. Renowned psychologists joining us out
Speaker 1: of Manhattan at karenstart dot com. That's Karen with the
Speaker 1: Sea Karen. He places himself at the scene of the murder.
Speaker 1: Scott Peterson did that idiot. He places himself there claiming
Speaker 1: he's fishing on Christmas Eve in the cold and the rain,
Speaker 1: and then Lacy and Connor's bodies turn up miraculously where
Speaker 1: he was fishing, and then in the weeks that followed,
Speaker 1: he was tracked back and forth to the San Francisco
Speaker 1: Bay looking out over the water. I guess he was
Speaker 1: trying to see if their bodies had washed up. But
Speaker 1: also it reminds me of Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer.
Speaker 1: He was always at the scene of the crime before
Speaker 1: anybody else got there, under the guise of being a
Speaker 1: stringer for TV stations. He was always there and I
Speaker 1: think trying to glean evidence from the police, trying to
Speaker 1: get information. Were they on to him? What do you
Speaker 1: make of him coming to the scene in the day's
Speaker 1: immediately following the gruesome murders of Abby and Libby.
Speaker 8: I'm not the.
Speaker 14: Least surprised, Nancy, because, yes, perhaps looking for evidence, But
Speaker 14: the truth is, when you're that kind of person, a psychopath,
Speaker 14: capable of doing this without empathy, you are, in many
Speaker 14: instances rewiving what happens. He's enjoying. Believe it or not
Speaker 14: every moment of this very cunning and manipulative sitting under
Speaker 14: posters with his own sketch in the back of him.
Speaker 14: And I want to tell you something. You mentioned all
Speaker 14: those killers who everyone keeps saying, you know, yeah, I
Speaker 14: never would have expected it of him. And that's not surprising,
Speaker 14: because that's part of this mo supersticially charming, and they
Speaker 14: strike observers as remarkably normal, but they're not normal. Just
Speaker 14: the fact that.
Speaker 1: He did that.
Speaker 14: Think about it, he goes, he's the one that the
Speaker 14: senseily committed this crime, and he's volunteering. And I think
Speaker 14: that very often police forget to look at a person
Speaker 14: like this. If they want to be there, they want
Speaker 14: to be a part of it. They're getting it thrill
Speaker 14: out of reliving it and being a part of the process.
Speaker 1: I don't know if the name Rodney al Kala rings
Speaker 1: the bell and Cheryl says, you're jumping in, I'll throw
Speaker 1: this to you. He was the Dating Game killer, Rodney
Speaker 1: al Kala, and he was so charming, he managed handsome,
Speaker 1: the works to some people, not me, but many people.
Speaker 1: He was so charming and personal that they put him
Speaker 1: on the Dating Game remember that show, and he turned
Speaker 1: out to be a cold bloody.
Speaker 5: Killer, cold bloody killer.
Speaker 6: But let's talk about people getting gray shape themselves in
Speaker 6: cases Zodiac did it, Zodiac couldn't take it and had
Speaker 6: to write them letters. And let's talk about another thing
Speaker 6: with Wayne Williams that is identical to this case. Wayne
Speaker 6: Williams also burned things, not in a fire pit, but
Speaker 6: on his grill. Remember after police, yeah, and FBI came. Okay,
Speaker 6: So these are people that the thrill that she mentioned
Speaker 6: is absolutely correct. And that's another reason he hasn't maybe
Speaker 6: had to repeat the crime yet because he's still living
Speaker 6: this one. The family comes into CBS and he has
Speaker 6: contact with them, you know, ask him, hey, do you
Speaker 6: need anything. Maybe he goes to where Kelsey works. You know,
Speaker 6: Kelsey always said she worried about that.
Speaker 1: And that is the victim's sister had contact.
Speaker 6: But I'll tell you something else. I guarantee you he
Speaker 6: went to the funeral or the viewing. And I guarantee
Speaker 6: you he was a volunteer searcher, whether it was official
Speaker 6: or not. I guarantee he was out there.
Speaker 1: Okay. I got a pretty good idea what may have
Speaker 1: been burned and that fire pit. Take a listen to
Speaker 1: our friend to me Johnson WISHTV.
Speaker 13: Authorities also found that two articles of clothing from one
Speaker 13: of the girls was missing from the crime scene, while
Speaker 13: the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appeared
Speaker 13: the girl's bodies were moved and staged. The agent goes
Speaker 13: on to say, based upon my training and experience, it
Speaker 13: is common for perpetrators of this type of crime to
Speaker 13: take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene.
Speaker 13: The agent also references the video on Libby's phone, confirming
Speaker 13: it was forty three seconds long. Up until now, only
Speaker 13: a few seconds have been made public.
Speaker 1: That the girls were followed.
Speaker 13: By the suspect on the Monon Highbridge trail, and that
Speaker 13: there were no visible signs of a struggle or fight.
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace to this day. Richard Allen
Speaker 1: says he's the victim and that there's been a horrible
Speaker 1: miscarriage of justice. Another oddity. Immediately after the girls go missing,
Speaker 1: Kathy Allen, that's Richard Allen's wife of thirty four very
Speaker 1: long years. I'm sure the mother of his daughter, Britney,
Speaker 1: wanted to go search for the girls. We learned from
Speaker 1: the New book Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders,
Speaker 1: and the Dark Side of the American Heartland, and the
Speaker 1: book is by journalist Amy Caine and lawyer Kevin Greenley.
Speaker 1: They recount that the wife, Richard Allen's wife wanted to
Speaker 1: go search for the girls. A lot of employers were
Speaker 1: actually giving employees a day off to go and search
Speaker 1: for the girls. Everyone was volunteering. Alan's wife, Kathy, wanted
Speaker 1: to go and search, but Alan actively convinced his wife
Speaker 1: not to get involved. What was actually said, we don't
Speaker 1: know specifically, but we do know it was enough to
Speaker 1: keep her from joining in the search. She also had
Speaker 1: to convince Richard Allen, her own husband, to tell police
Speaker 1: he was on the trails that day. He was reluctant
Speaker 1: to call in the tip. Why what more do we know?
Speaker 1: Fran Longwell joining US veteran trial lawyer, expertise homicide, What
Speaker 1: do you make of that, friend.
Speaker 5: I think that's totally that's natural. I think a lot
Speaker 5: of them, a lot of serial killers, for sure, always
Speaker 5: seemed to take some kind of souvenir. We had a
Speaker 5: case years ago where they were finding bodies along the
Speaker 5: Beltway and in areas for shortest County, and years and
Speaker 5: years later, death suspect was found. He was able to
Speaker 5: draw pictures of each feel what she looked like, and
Speaker 5: he had some sulvenir each one of those murders. I
Speaker 5: don't think that's unusual. I think that's part of their
Speaker 5: excitement of the crime.
Speaker 1: What about it, Karen Stark, New York psychologists joining us
Speaker 1: today from Manhattan. What about taking souvenirs, It's very common.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, all those scrapbooks I have of
Speaker 1: the twins. I mean, I don't even know how many
Speaker 1: I've got Birthday, Christening, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Birthday, just goes on
Speaker 1: and on in summer vacation for every year they're fifteen. Karen,
Speaker 1: those are my souvenirs.
Speaker 14: But their souvenirs are of the crime, Nancy. They want
Speaker 14: to relive it. That's the whole thing is that it's
Speaker 14: exciting to them. So two pieces of clothing. I hate
Speaker 14: to say this, but I have a feeling it will
Speaker 14: be underwear, because they like to do that. To take underwear,
Speaker 14: to take some kind of token that they've been there,
Speaker 14: that they did is it gives them a really good
Speaker 14: sense of themselves. They're powerful, they're aboveve the law and
Speaker 14: they got away with them.
Speaker 1: And they're caught dead in the water. Cheryl McCollum. The
Speaker 1: evidence would suggest this. What about the theory that the
Speaker 1: girls were redressed and that somehow some of their clothing
Speaker 1: were interchanged by accident.
Speaker 6: Again, those of us in this business, redressing is something
Speaker 6: that occurs.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's something that they have ted Bundy. Oh,
Speaker 1: after the person was dead, he had redressed them and
Speaker 1: do their hair and makeup, had bathed their bodies in
Speaker 1: the pathtub at the house.
Speaker 6: Is what keys did the same thing, make up, hair,
Speaker 6: redress them, pose them raiding the girl's hair like polk.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh gosh, Yeah.
Speaker 6: That's part of their fantasy. They're acting something out. So
Speaker 6: a lot of times we focus on the murder, but
Speaker 6: it is a sexually generated there's no question about it.
Speaker 6: And again his computers, when you know, the superintendent mentioned
Speaker 6: the lab so often, the electronic part, the biology, the
Speaker 6: tool marks, the voice.
Speaker 1: Analysis, the hares, the fiber, the blood, the blood, the
Speaker 1: tool marks which is from a knife.
Speaker 6: But I also think Arsen is going to be a
Speaker 6: money tree.
Speaker 1: To doctor Todd m bar now joining us, speaking of blood,
Speaker 1: he is a board certified and atomic clinical forensic pathologist
Speaker 1: joining us out of Ohio. He's featured in Thin Places
Speaker 1: Essays from in Between and you can find them on
Speaker 1: Twitter at Todd Barma. That's for medical examiner, doctor bar
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us and waiting for the
Speaker 1: build up to the scientists, the medical examiners that ultimately
Speaker 1: says there are no eyewitnesses as of yet will make
Speaker 1: or break this case. We learned there are copious amounts
Speaker 1: of blood at the scene. How is that likely to
Speaker 1: have happened?
Speaker 9: Well, Nancy, it seems to me. I know that there's
Speaker 9: some speculation that possibly the throats of the victims had
Speaker 9: been flashed, and you know, because the carotid arteries are
Speaker 9: under such high pressure, there would be a lot of
Speaker 9: spatter and disbursement of blood in the process. So you're
Speaker 9: absolutely one hundred percent correct. That would be transfer of
Speaker 9: that blood evidence not only onto the victim's clothing, but
Speaker 9: also onto the perpetrator. So and my thought was, you know,
Speaker 9: maybe he even was burying the murder weapon that in
Speaker 9: the firepit area, possibly the clothing. And I've worked on
Speaker 9: several serial killer cases before, and they do like to
Speaker 9: take a trophy from uh, you know, it's in my
Speaker 9: my experience that that that these articles that they collect
Speaker 9: are basically like a trophy. And I have to also
Speaker 9: think to myself that perhaps these people revisiting the case
Speaker 9: trying to get involved in the case, there may even
Speaker 9: be some notoriety element, like they actually want to be caught.
Speaker 9: So I think that, you know, with a twenty million
Speaker 9: dollar bond on this gentleman, there's got to be some
Speaker 9: significant evidence that they found. I know it's all feeled,
Speaker 9: but I'm very much concerned that there are other victims
Speaker 9: that play here.
Speaker 1: Wow, that was a lot of information, doctor Todd Barr.
Speaker 1: So I'm just digesting everything that you just said. Got
Speaker 1: a question. If this is, as we believe, a stabbing death,
Speaker 1: I find very very unusual. I would have suspected a
Speaker 1: strangling death or some sort of asphyxiation under these circumstances,
Speaker 1: But due to the copious amounts of blood too, which
Speaker 1: have been eluded in the documents, it leads me to
Speaker 1: think that it is in fact a stabbing death. If
Speaker 1: there are multiple stab wounds, such as in that Jody
Speaker 1: Aria's case where Travis Alexander was stabbed twenty nine plus
Speaker 1: times and then shot would you be able to match that.
Speaker 1: They're called tool markings, match the wounds up to a
Speaker 1: particular knife.
Speaker 15: And if so, how depending on the type of knife
Speaker 15: that may have been used. If it was one that
Speaker 15: had a serrated edge, you could actually if it if
Speaker 15: the tool actually got into the bone in the area
Speaker 15: that's that's where the tool marks are found when the
Speaker 15: when the blade would pass over the bone, and if
Speaker 15: it's serrated, they can actually match up those serrated edges
Speaker 15: almost identically to show you know that a specific tool
Speaker 15: was used. So if they do have the murder weapon
Speaker 15: and they have evidence of serrations on the bone, than
Speaker 15: that's very easily dematched up.
Speaker 1: Five years after the murder, right years passed after the
Speaker 1: murders before Richard Allen was arrested, a seemingly clerical error
Speaker 1: meant the tip, a specific tip fell through the cracks,
Speaker 1: but when it resurfaced, Richard Allen was re interviewed and
Speaker 1: confirmed he was on the trail and wearing the same
Speaker 1: outfit blue jeans and a car heart jacket as the
Speaker 1: guy caught on camera by the victims. What more will
Speaker 1: be uncovered? What more will be revealed about Richard Allen,
Speaker 1: now convicted in the murders of Abby and Libby, their
Speaker 1: young lives cut short. Chilling comments he made to his
Speaker 1: mom after he murdered the two little girls now coming
Speaker 1: to light. Don't worry, there will be an appeal and
Speaker 1: wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off.
Speaker 8: Mm hmm