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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: and it's Friday night. You know what that means. I've

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Speaker 1: got a Friday Night special for you. Delphi killer Richard Allen.

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Speaker 1: The evidence just keeps piling up. We're learning things now.

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Speaker 1: We didn't hear it trial. Now what will all the

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Speaker 1: haters say, all the trolls online that said the jury

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Speaker 1: got it wrong, the judge was wrong, the prosecutors were wrong.

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Speaker 1: The victims' families, Oh, they were wrong. Susan Hendrix, who

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Speaker 1: covered the case, she was wrong. I'm wrong. Everybody's wrong,

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Speaker 1: and Richard Allen is right. Not so quick tonight, we're

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Speaker 1: learning about chilling comments Richard Allen made after Liberty and

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Speaker 1: were killed, murdered, and before he was arrested to an individual,

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Speaker 1: a witness that you would think would do anything to

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Speaker 1: cover for Richard Allen, her own son. I mean, see, Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us. Convicted Delphi double killer Richard Allen, local

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Speaker 1: pharmacy techt makes chilling statements to his own mother after

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Speaker 1: he murders Libby and Abby and before long before he

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Speaker 1: is arrested. Of course, when the two best friends, Abby

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Speaker 1: and Libby didn't come home from the local hiking trail.

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Speaker 1: Delphi residents dropped everything they were doing to help find

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Speaker 1: the girls, and then their worst nightmares came true. The girls'

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Speaker 1: bodies mutilated were discovered in the woods the next day.

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Speaker 1: But now we learn one person, a forty five year

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Speaker 1: old pharmacy tech, a husband, a father, a son, was

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Speaker 1: making really weird comments about the murders and trying to

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Speaker 1: talk his own relatives out of joining the searches. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that at trial. This is all new, and

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Speaker 1: we're learning it all from a brand new book, Shadow

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Speaker 1: of the Bridge, The Delphi Murders, and the Dark Side

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Speaker 1: of the American Heartland. What did Richard Allen say to

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Speaker 1: his mother after the murders and before long before he

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Speaker 1: was arrested a few days after Libby and Abbey were murdered,

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Speaker 1: Janice Allan, Richard Allen's mother, got a very odd call

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Speaker 1: from her son, Chard Allan, and out of the blue,

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Speaker 1: sounding very nervous, he says, quote, they're going to pend

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Speaker 1: this on me. Why would he say that right after

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Speaker 1: the murders. He wasn't even a suspect. He told his

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Speaker 1: mother that he had been on the trails the day

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Speaker 1: the girls were murdered and had been smoking a cigarette,

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Speaker 1: and he came up with this elaborate theory that investigators

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Speaker 1: would find the cigarette butt, get his DNA off it,

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Speaker 1: and use that to tie him to the crime scene. Now,

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Speaker 1: his mother later told this to police, and she says

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Speaker 1: she found it very odd, but she kept it to

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Speaker 1: herself for years. How did we get here? The killer

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Speaker 1: was right under everybody's nose, literally in the center of town.

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Speaker 1: First of all, take a listen to our friends at WHR.

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Speaker 2: We know Richard Allen worked as a licensed farming tech

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Speaker 2: at this CVS here in Delphi. But many continue to

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Speaker 2: ask and wonder how a man now charged with two

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Speaker 2: counts of murder managed to stay under the radar in

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Speaker 2: a town of about three thousand people. Those who live

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Speaker 2: in Delphi are still trying to cope with news that

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Speaker 2: Richard Allen is the man police say murdered Abby Williams

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Speaker 2: and Libby Jerman.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's the day after Halloween, but it is.

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Speaker 1: It's a little eerie.

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Speaker 2: And tense in downtown Delphi on the Square, businesses like

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Speaker 2: the Office Tavern put up a new sign on their

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Speaker 2: door reading no media aloud. They weren't the only ones.

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Speaker 2: Country Hair also had a sign off camera. One business

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Speaker 2: owner Total thirteen news. The community is still in shock.

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Speaker 1: Even the girls' families grappling with the reality that their

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Speaker 1: girls a murderer, brutal murderer. Remember, according to one released affidavit,

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Speaker 1: there were copious amounts of blood at the scene. These

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Speaker 1: two little girls, libbyan Abbey had their throats slit. They

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Speaker 1: are grappling with the reality that the killer was right

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Speaker 1: under their nose. Take a listen to Fox fifty nine.

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Speaker 3: They're also facing a harsh reality that Richard Allen was

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Speaker 3: living amongst them the whole time.

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Speaker 4: I don't know the gentleman.

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Speaker 5: Personally at all, you know, so I probably seen him,

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Speaker 5: but you know, it's a small county, you know, but

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Speaker 5: definitely don't. I don't know him.

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Speaker 3: One of the most chilling revelations was that Becky said Alan,

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Speaker 3: who worked at a local CBS, had printed off pictures

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Speaker 3: for the girls's funeral, leaving the family to wonder how

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Speaker 3: did nobody know?

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Speaker 1: When the family says we didn't know him, that's like

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Speaker 1: you don't know your mailman. You don't know the guy

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Speaker 1: at McDonald's. It gives you a large coffee with two

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Speaker 1: creams in it every morning. You don't know the neighbor

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Speaker 1: three doors down, but you do. Again, thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us as we are struggling with the reality

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Speaker 1: that a double killer, according to police, was right there

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Speaker 1: saying good morning. How can I help you every single

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Speaker 1: day to practiculally everybody in town To Cheryl McCollum joining me,

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Speaker 1: Founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, isn't

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Speaker 1: the CVS right in the middle of.

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Speaker 6: Town, Right in the middle of town.

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Speaker 7: If you take the CBS and make it the center

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Speaker 7: of a wheel with spokes, you get to the high school,

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Speaker 7: you get to the middle school, you get to the bridge.

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Speaker 7: Everywhere is centered from downtown.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I know our pharmacists because the twins

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Speaker 1: are so sick when they were little, we were in

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Speaker 1: there all the time. I know them. They're families through pictures.

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Speaker 1: Everybody that works there. You get to know your pharmacist,

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Speaker 1: and this local pharmacy tech seemingly dealt with everybody in town.

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now. Max Lewis with Fox fifty nine.

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Speaker 1: You can find him on insta at Max Lewis TV.

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Speaker 1: Max thank you for being with us. I guess the

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Speaker 1: town is stunned right now because in one picture he's

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Speaker 1: at a bar, what was it, J and hc ands

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Speaker 1: bar and grill. He's sitting right there living it up,

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Speaker 1: and right behind him on the wall is his composite. Yeah.

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Speaker 8: I mean people were just when we heard about it,

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Speaker 8: we saw this picture, we saw who he was. People

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Speaker 8: were stunned. Five and a half years they've been investigating

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Speaker 8: this and this guy has been living amongst them the

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Speaker 8: whole time. He's been filling their prescriptions, they' printing off

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Speaker 8: photos form at CBS, and nobody saw anything. I think

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Speaker 8: that's sort of what the family was saying there. And

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Speaker 8: what a whole lot of people have told me is

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Speaker 8: really nobody saw this guy. Nobody looked at the sketch

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Speaker 8: and thought maybe it was him or anything like that.

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Speaker 8: I mean, it was just sort of really shocking.

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Speaker 1: Right now, the shock factor. And I'll tell you what

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Speaker 1: I think, and this is from having handle cases where

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Speaker 1: the killer was right there in the community the whole time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we all looked at the possibility it was a transient.

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Speaker 1: But Cheryl McComb, you and I agreed on day one,

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Speaker 1: this was no transient. Right day one, you and.

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Speaker 6: I said it, and we never wavered from it. We

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Speaker 6: even said he would be within five miles and there

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Speaker 6: once I got to Delphi and we saw where the

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Speaker 6: bridge was, I mean that to me, I was like,

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Speaker 6: he's even closer than I think.

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Speaker 1: And remember the guy the catfisher was Keegan kleinb Gosh

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Speaker 1: I not now I know their names by heart. Keegan

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Speaker 1: Kline was a perv, pasty looking dude, middle age. I

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Speaker 1: think he is anyway, using a screenshot Anthony shots of

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Speaker 1: a Justin Bieber looking aline trying to lure young girls.

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Speaker 1: And he was talking to them just a day or

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Speaker 1: two before and maybe the day of. But he lives

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Speaker 1: like thirty sixty miles away, and you and I thought, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's tempting, it's really tempting. But the distance didn't fit

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Speaker 1: to us, because who would know to go to that

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Speaker 1: dirt road, to that particular trail, to that trestle bridge

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Speaker 1: and then down to a bottleneck tape forced the girls

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Speaker 1: down to where they really couldn't get away and murder them.

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Speaker 1: Had to be a local.

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Speaker 6: It had to be a local with intimate knowledge, because

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Speaker 6: even where they crossed the creek that's where the creek

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Speaker 6: was shallow. Other parts of it are waist deep.

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Speaker 1: This person knew Hold on, wait a minute, I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to drink him. What you're saying parts of the creek shallow,

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Speaker 1: other parts waste deep, and that factored into it. It

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Speaker 1: absolutely did. Why are you saying that, because again.

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Speaker 6: This person would have to know that if you and

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Speaker 6: I just were visiting that area, we would know where

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Speaker 6: to cross that creek and again waist high, chest high

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Speaker 6: in some places that has been raining, but he knew

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Speaker 6: right where to cross where it was less than ankle deep.

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Speaker 1: And Max Lewis Fox fifty nine joining us, He's been

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Speaker 1: all over this, Max Lewis. The thing is the killer

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Speaker 1: would know, and you've been to that trestle Bridge times.

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Speaker 1: The killer would have to know that there were other

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Speaker 1: people that were in that I'm going to call it

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Speaker 1: a park, it's more like a hiking area, and where

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Speaker 1: he killed them, other people would not be able to

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Speaker 1: see what was going on, even though they could be

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Speaker 1: walking around in the hiking area.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, and you know, yeah, this is a very well

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Speaker 8: traveled area, So I mean, it's hard to believe that

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Speaker 8: nobody would have seen them. That may be where the

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Speaker 8: sort of you remember that that chilling audio recording the

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Speaker 8: down the hill. You know, we don't necessarily know, you know,

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Speaker 8: if he is the bridge guy per se. You know

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Speaker 8: that's still they're holding everything close to the best at

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Speaker 8: this point.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait, wait, well woa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop

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Speaker 1: the train, Max Lewis, Let's follow that theory to its

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Speaker 1: logical conclusion, and that would be that there were two killers.

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Speaker 1: That one guy lured them down, the so called bridge guy,

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Speaker 1: and then Richard Allen raped and murdered them. I find

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Speaker 1: that hard to believe. My mind is still open. But

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Speaker 1: is that you're suggesting?

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Speaker 8: Well, that seems to be somewhat of the indication that

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Speaker 8: we are getting at this point, because they do reddit. No, no,

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Speaker 8: we're getting that from the way they're handling this. They

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Speaker 8: steal those documents, they say, this investigation is ongoing. What

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Speaker 8: more than they need? If they have their guide they've

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Speaker 8: made and the rest they found a probable concept of David,

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Speaker 8: what more.

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Speaker 9: Do they need?

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Speaker 1: Cheryl mc coombs, straighten it out, woman.

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Speaker 6: There's a great possibility there are additional victims. So they

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Speaker 6: are going to connect every dot they possibly can. This

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Speaker 6: investigation does not end, and arrest in a great world

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Speaker 6: is where it starts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you really think I'm not picking on you,

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Speaker 1: Max Lewis, You're the messenger, Okay, but do you really

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Speaker 1: think this guy went from zero to one twenty mph

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Speaker 1: in one day? Because I don't even when a sports car,

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Speaker 1: it takes a minute to heat up. So I'm not

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Speaker 1: buying it. I think what Cheryl mccoum just said is right.

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Speaker 1: I think a law enforcement are looking for other young

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Speaker 1: girl victims. Were they sex assaulted, were they threatened, did

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Speaker 1: they feel threatened? And for people that may have helped

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Speaker 1: him cover up this crime. Back to who is this guy?

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Speaker 1: Take a listen now to this.

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Speaker 3: Before moving to DOLPHI, he lived in this home with

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Speaker 3: his wife and daughter.

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Speaker 1: According to neighbors, David.

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Speaker 3: Yoder lived across the street but has known Allan since

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Speaker 3: he was born and grew up with his dad.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I would have never thought living crossed the

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Speaker 4: road from him, there's anything, that's.

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Speaker 1: Where we're setting my kids due if there had been

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Speaker 1: any trouble.

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Speaker 3: But after hearing, Allan was arrested in charge with killing

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Speaker 3: Abby Williams and Libby Jerman. He's now questioning if he

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Speaker 3: really knew him.

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Speaker 1: It's just hard to believe. He's a heck of a

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Speaker 1: nice guy, always has been. Heck of a nice guy,

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Speaker 1: always has been. Well, you know what they said that

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Speaker 1: about Joseph DiAngelo, the Golden State Killer. In fact, he

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Speaker 1: had even been a cop. He was in Oxford, California.

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Speaker 1: They said the same thing about the dog catcher, which

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Speaker 1: makes me suspicious that get go who wants to catch

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Speaker 1: dogs and put them to debt? Not me BTK buying,

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Speaker 1: torture kill. Dennis Rader, deacon at the church, freak, complete

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Speaker 1: total freak. After he would murder people in his community

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Speaker 1: on his dog catching route, he would then redress them

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Speaker 1: and put makeup on them and pose them. Let that

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Speaker 1: sink in. Everybody thought he was a nice, upstanding guy too.

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Speaker 1: And of course I'm just going to go out on

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Speaker 1: a limb. Scott Peterson. And yes, I know there was

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Speaker 1: a cable TV entertainment program suggesting that Scott Peterson is innocent.

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Speaker 1: He's not. He's guilty. He murdered Lacy and Connor. And

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Speaker 1: you can throw all the hate at me you want to,

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Speaker 1: but that is the truth. I was in the trial.

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Speaker 1: Were you bet you weren't. If you believe everything somebody

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Speaker 1: is paid to create to convince you to get rating,

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Speaker 1: you're barking up the wrong tree. So I'm gonna throw

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Speaker 1: Scott Peterson in there too. Crime stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: chilling comments come to light, comments made by double killer

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Speaker 1: Richard Allen. I wonder what all the trolls are gonna

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Speaker 1: have to say about this. Why would Richard Allen, after

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Speaker 1: the girls are murdered, and long before he's arrested, say

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Speaker 1: they're gonna pend this on me. They're gonna pend this

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Speaker 1: on me. I had a cigarette out there on the trail.

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Speaker 1: I was there that day. Why would you say all

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Speaker 1: that to your mom? The mom who, by the way,

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Speaker 1: kept it to herself for years, but when her son

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Speaker 1: was arrested, she recalled the strange conversation she actually told police.

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Speaker 1: We also learn that that conversation it stuck in her

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Speaker 1: mind to the point that years later she brought it up.

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Speaker 1: Now many would argue that circumstantial evidence and that's not

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Speaker 1: enough for a conviction. But it's just more and more

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Speaker 1: brick in the wall. What more do we know about

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Speaker 1: the murders? David Yoder grew up with Richard Allen as

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Speaker 1: a child and was his neighbor for years and years.

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Speaker 1: And you just heard him say two Max, if my

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Speaker 1: children are in trouble, I tell him to run over there.

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Speaker 1: That's how much he trusts trusted Richard Allen. David Yoder,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with user. Okay, tell me, Davy Yoder,

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Speaker 1: don't leave anything out. What do you recall growing up

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Speaker 1: with Richard Allen? I grew up with a little girl

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Speaker 1: named Joy Jones. Connie Joy Jones lived across the street.

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Speaker 1: They had four children, one was the same age of

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Speaker 1: each of us, and it was wonderful. Still friends after

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Speaker 1: all that time, she says. The first time she met me,

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Speaker 1: I came to her door unannounced or uninvited. They opened

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Speaker 1: the door and I said, Matt, please have Ticky. That's

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Speaker 1: how that friendship started. Tell me about Richard Allen, Well.

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Speaker 4: He was a good kid growing up. I mean, never

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Speaker 4: in any trouble. They were a good family. His dad

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Speaker 4: is a friend of mine. Uh he uh, there's just

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Speaker 4: good people all around, good people. They're very smart people.

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Speaker 4: His Grandpaul was the principal at my grade school and

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Speaker 4: a teacher. Uh that there's just a good family all around,

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Speaker 4: good family, and I just a shock to think that rec.

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Speaker 1: Could do something like this. But it's just it's just

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Speaker 1: a shock.

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Speaker 3: Like I said, I would have sent my kids over

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Speaker 3: there to a safe.

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Speaker 4: House, over to him if I had to, you know,

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Speaker 4: to go there if there was any problems and I

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Speaker 4: wasn't home or something.

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Speaker 1: Well. I feel the same way about Connie Joey Jones.

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Speaker 1: If somebody told me Connie Joy Jones aka Joy Jones

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Speaker 1: committed a double murder much less on children, I'd say

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Speaker 1: no way. I'd go to court and go under oath

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Speaker 1: and talk about what a great person she was and

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Speaker 1: is and has been alone with my children, and I

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Speaker 1: would have her be alone with them again. I know

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Speaker 1: what you're saying. What is his character? You keep saying

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Speaker 1: a good guy? What do you mean by that? He

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Speaker 1: never once shotlifted, he never spent, he never took a

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Speaker 1: pack of gun from the store, nothing.

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Speaker 4: He always spoke, He was real nice, cordial, never disrespected me.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm older than he is several years.

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Speaker 8: He was better friends with his dad than him, But

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Speaker 8: I will growing up.

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Speaker 1: How much older are you, Dan, Richard Allen, I'm fifty

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Speaker 1: eight and Alan is fifty right, Okay, eighteen years fifty,

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Speaker 1: so somewhere now when you say, good guy, How did

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Speaker 1: he do in school? Did he play a sport?

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Speaker 4: Not so much an athlete?

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Speaker 1: No, what did he do? I don't know just what

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Speaker 1: to school.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't with him in school. His dad I was.

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Speaker 4: Is that who you're talking about?

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Speaker 1: No, I'm talking about Richard Allen. I'm not as interested

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Speaker 1: in his parents Richard.

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Speaker 4: I was out of school when Richard went to school.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I was eighteen years old than he was.

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Speaker 4: He's young enough to be my kid.

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Speaker 1: And never a bit of trouble when he was growing up.

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Speaker 1: That is, he brothers and sisters. He's got one sister.

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Speaker 1: Where does she live.

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Speaker 9: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I lost track of her a long time ago. I mean,

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Speaker 4: and I have Richard too. He moved away from here.

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Speaker 4: I just kind of lost track of him.

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Speaker 1: Talking about Richard Allen, neighbors that actually grew up with

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Speaker 1: him saw him grow up as a child like David

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Speaker 1: Yoder or having a hard time taking in that he

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Speaker 1: is now charged with double murderer David Yoder. What did

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Speaker 1: you think when you learned that cops have arrested Richard

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Speaker 1: Allen for the murders of Abby and Libby first starting

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Speaker 1: on through my minders, No way, No Way, David Yoder

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Speaker 1: says he is absolutely shocked that a boy he knew

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Speaker 1: his entire childhood, all the way through growing up and

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Speaker 1: moving away as an adult, is responsible for such a

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Speaker 1: gruesome sex attack we believe, and double murder we believe

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Speaker 1: by knife. I don't know. I have to ask a

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Speaker 1: shrink Karen Stark about this, but the thought of putting

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Speaker 1: a knife to a little girl's throat is just it's

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Speaker 1: it's repulsive. I don't even want to think about it.

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Speaker 1: But a little digging does reveal a tiny lip. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to our friend Max at Fox fifty nine.

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Speaker 3: Alan has no criminal history, but Carol County Dispatch records

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Speaker 3: show he had one encounter with police in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 3: The sheriff said it was a domestic issue where Allan

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Speaker 3: was supposedly drunk and his wife took him to a

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Speaker 3: lit hospital. No law enforcement action was taken, but deputies

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Speaker 3: were sent to his del Phi home to quote, keep

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Speaker 3: the peace.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Max a little. So far, the cops haven't come

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Speaker 1: to our home to keep the peace, and nobody's been

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Speaker 1: carted off to the emergency room drunk as a skunk?

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Speaker 1: So what do we know about what happened?

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Speaker 8: They were providing a whole lot of clarification about that.

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Speaker 8: You know, it sounds like there was you know, as

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Speaker 8: I said, there there was a domestic situation. When I

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Speaker 8: asked the shriff, who's the domestic station situation between he

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Speaker 8: wouldn't tell me. So, you know, I am a little

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Speaker 8: suspect of this, but you know that was But it's

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Speaker 8: also the only other thing I ever founded him. I mean,

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Speaker 8: you saw, I went to his hometown, looked through his

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Speaker 8: criminal background. That's the only thing we found about him.

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Speaker 8: And it did happen at three o'clock in the morning.

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Speaker 8: So you know, I'll leave that for you guys to

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Speaker 8: decide what you want to think about.

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Speaker 1: That, and I certainly will I certainly will dis say

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Speaker 1: that who is up causing a ruck as drunk as

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Speaker 1: a skunk at three am? That's not good to Fran Longwell,

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Speaker 1: former Deputy State's Attorney in Calvert County, former Assistant State's

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Speaker 1: Attorney and Prince George specializing and homicides and other related crimes.

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Speaker 1: Fran thank you for being with us. What do you

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Speaker 1: make of this prior arrest the prior arrest.

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Speaker 5: I think it shows in my opinion that he does

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Speaker 5: have some type of violence streak in him.

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Speaker 8: But I kind of agree with you.

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Speaker 5: Nancy, that this didn't start from zero to what happened

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Speaker 5: to these little girls. I'm just concerned that we're going

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Speaker 5: to find other victims, or we're going to find other

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Speaker 5: other kids that have been abused by this guy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, why are you saying that, Cheryl McCombe. What leads

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Speaker 1: you to that speculation? But by the way, I agree.

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Speaker 6: With you, Well, I mean, again, broad daylight, two victims

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Speaker 6: with other people around, a victim that clearly has a

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Speaker 6: cell phone, that is high risk. You're talking about somebody

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Speaker 6: on the bridge that's, you know, eighty feet behind the

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Speaker 6: air and has boards missing, and everything he did was

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Speaker 6: so risky. It tells me that ain't his first rodeo.

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Speaker 6: And I want to say one more thing. When I was.

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Speaker 10: Listening to the neighbors speak, and I think people need

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Speaker 10: to understand when you look at a case like this

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Speaker 10: and you're only thinking from your vantage point, you can't

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Speaker 10: possibly accept.

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Speaker 6: It or understand it. But when you talk to criminologists

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Speaker 6: like you and I, Nancy, we talked probably their throats

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Speaker 6: were slash, they were posed, they were staged. Things were

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Speaker 6: probably done there, whether it's a carving or some sort

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Speaker 6: of ritual if you look at it. If this was

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Speaker 6: my case, one of the first things I would do

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Speaker 6: is go to CBS and see if there's a camera

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Speaker 6: in the girls restaurant.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's funny you would say that, because after our

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Speaker 1: investigating a case in chief, the very next thing I

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Speaker 1: would do is start looking for similar transactions. But you

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Speaker 1: said it so much more descriptively than I did. Because

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Speaker 1: a crime like this that there has got to be

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Speaker 1: some prior not necessarily Scott Peterson type case where that

400
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Speaker 1: is a domestic homicide. He hasn't had another wife to

401
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Speaker 1: kill in a case like this. However, these are not

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Speaker 1: his children, so although he does have a daughter near

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Speaker 1: their age, that tells me there are very likely other victims.

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Speaker 1: And I agree with you three hundred percent. Now, what

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Speaker 1: do we know about a twelve plus hour search of

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Speaker 1: his home. Something in that home led them to ultimately

407
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Speaker 1: arrest the local pharmacists that tech Richard Allen. Take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our cut eighty three our friends at crime

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Speaker 1: Online and first our friend Lindsay stone Box fifty nine.

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Speaker 11: Richard Allen was not a stranger to this community. Information

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Speaker 11: uncovered by our RUSSA quaid from sources with knowledge of

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Speaker 11: the investigation. He even came forward in the early days

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Speaker 11: of the investigation as a witness from the moment high Bridge,

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Speaker 11: the day Abbey and Libby were killed in February of

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Speaker 11: twenty seventeen. Now, at the time, any inquiry did not

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Speaker 11: reveal the need for further investigation. However, his name surfaced

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Speaker 11: again recently. A search form was issued at his house

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Speaker 11: two weeks ago and revealed evidence reportedly linking him to

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Speaker 11: the deaths.

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Speaker 12: Ten days before the arrest of murder suspect Richard Allen,

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Speaker 12: police officers extensively searched the fifty year old's home. Neighbors

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Speaker 12: tell the New York Posts the non uniformed officers were

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Speaker 12: on the property for about twelve hours. During the search

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Speaker 12: of the property, Allen chairs with his wife.

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Speaker 1: Officers were seen.

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Speaker 12: Quote snooping a lot around the fire pit and at

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Speaker 12: the backyard. A neighbor describes quote lots of flashlights, lots

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Speaker 12: of pictures, lots of sifting unquote in that area. The

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Speaker 12: source says that it was odd for them to be

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Speaker 12: in that area, as the Allens were never observed burning things.

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Speaker 12: The neighbor also said when police arrived at the property,

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Speaker 12: no one suspected that there would be a.

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Speaker 1: Connection to the murders of Living and Abbey. What are

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00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: they looking for? What were they looking for? If the

435
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 1: Allens really didn't use the fire pit, then what were

436
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: they digging around for? Could have anything to do with

437
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: blood evidence and there will be blood evidence marked my words.

438
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at WISH.

439
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 13: This nine page request for a search warrant filed March

440
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 13: seventeenth of twenty seventeen. Now that's a little more than

441
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 13: a month after Libby Jerman and Abby Williams were found

442
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 13: murdered in Delphi. This disturbing document, for the first time

443
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 13: gives us an investigator's description of the crime scene and

444
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 13: what the suspect may have taken with him. The document,

445
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 13: written by an FBI agent, describes what investigators found when

446
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 13: they discovered the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German

447
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 13: on February fourteenth. The agent writes a large amount of

448
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 13: blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene.

449
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 13: Because of the nature of the victim's wounds, it is

450
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 13: nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten

451
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 13: blood on his person or clothing.

452
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: Straight out to Fox fifty nine's Max Lewis, all of

453
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: that together, let's make sense of it. Number one, A

454
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: twelve plus hour search of Richard Allen's home. A few

455
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: days later, they come back and arrest him. They're digging

456
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 1: around a very unused fire pit with disturbed earth near by.

457
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: We know there's blood evidence. And also did you hear

458
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: that that he actually came forward as a witness in

459
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: the early days of the investigation.

460
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, he from what we have heard from our sources.

461
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 8: You know, he you know, walked up and volunteered to

462
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 8: police and said, hey, you know, I was up there.

463
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 8: I didn't really see anything, but you know I can

464
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 8: tell you, you know, whatever you need.

465
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 9: To know or whatever.

466
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 8: So, you know, that's sort of another amazing thing. And

467
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 8: he was sort of brushed off and not really given

468
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 8: a whole lot of thought to as far as the

469
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 8: search goes on his house. Yeah, they were neighbors told

470
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 8: us they were searching around there, digging in the backyard,

471
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 8: digging in a fire pit. Makes you wonder what was

472
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 8: in that fire pit? Was he trying to get rid

473
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 8: of something, you know, what was going on back There

474
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 8: so many, so many unanswered questions about this, but it

475
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 8: all doesn't look good.

476
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: I want to circle back to what you just said.

477
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 1: Tell me again. Max Slow is joining us from Fox

478
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: fifty nine, who's been on the case from the very

479
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: very beginning. You stayed at the in the initial days

480
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: of the investigation that Richard Allen went to police and

481
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: said I was there and offered himself up as a witness.

482
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 8: That's right, he was, you know, on he said he

483
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 8: was on the trail that day. And I'm not exactly

484
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 8: sure how the encounter happened if he was, you know,

485
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 8: if police came upon him and started, you know, asking him,

486
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 8: or if he just walked up to them and said, hey,

487
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 8: I was here, didn't see anything. But you know, I

488
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 8: can help you with what you need to know. But

489
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 8: we do know that he was interviewed by police in

490
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 8: the days after Abby and Libby first disappeared and then

491
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 8: were found murdered.

492
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: To Karen started joining me. Renowned psychologists joining us out

493
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 1: of Manhattan at karenstart dot com. That's Karen with the

494
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: Sea Karen. He places himself at the scene of the murder.

495
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: Scott Peterson did that idiot. He places himself there claiming

496
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: he's fishing on Christmas Eve in the cold and the rain,

497
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 1: and then Lacy and Connor's bodies turn up miraculously where

498
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: he was fishing, and then in the weeks that followed,

499
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: he was tracked back and forth to the San Francisco

500
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: Bay looking out over the water. I guess he was

501
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: trying to see if their bodies had washed up. But

502
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: also it reminds me of Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer.

503
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: He was always at the scene of the crime before

504
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: anybody else got there, under the guise of being a

505
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: stringer for TV stations. He was always there and I

506
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: think trying to glean evidence from the police, trying to

507
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: get information. Were they on to him? What do you

508
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: make of him coming to the scene in the day's

509
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: immediately following the gruesome murders of Abby and Libby.

510
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 8: I'm not the.

511
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 14: Least surprised, Nancy, because, yes, perhaps looking for evidence, But

512
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 14: the truth is, when you're that kind of person, a psychopath,

513
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 14: capable of doing this without empathy, you are, in many

514
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 14: instances rewiving what happens. He's enjoying. Believe it or not

515
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 14: every moment of this very cunning and manipulative sitting under

516
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 14: posters with his own sketch in the back of him.

517
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 14: And I want to tell you something. You mentioned all

518
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 14: those killers who everyone keeps saying, you know, yeah, I

519
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 14: never would have expected it of him. And that's not surprising,

520
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 14: because that's part of this mo supersticially charming, and they

521
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 14: strike observers as remarkably normal, but they're not normal. Just

522
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 14: the fact that.

523
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: He did that.

524
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 14: Think about it, he goes, he's the one that the

525
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 14: senseily committed this crime, and he's volunteering. And I think

526
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 14: that very often police forget to look at a person

527
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 14: like this. If they want to be there, they want

528
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 14: to be a part of it. They're getting it thrill

529
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 14: out of reliving it and being a part of the process.

530
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: I don't know if the name Rodney al Kala rings

531
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: the bell and Cheryl says, you're jumping in, I'll throw

532
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: this to you. He was the Dating Game killer, Rodney

533
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: al Kala, and he was so charming, he managed handsome,

534
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: the works to some people, not me, but many people.

535
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: He was so charming and personal that they put him

536
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: on the Dating Game remember that show, and he turned

537
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: out to be a cold bloody.

538
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 5: Killer, cold bloody killer.

539
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 6: But let's talk about people getting gray shape themselves in

540
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 6: cases Zodiac did it, Zodiac couldn't take it and had

541
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 6: to write them letters. And let's talk about another thing

542
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 6: with Wayne Williams that is identical to this case. Wayne

543
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 6: Williams also burned things, not in a fire pit, but

544
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 6: on his grill. Remember after police, yeah, and FBI came. Okay,

545
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 6: So these are people that the thrill that she mentioned

546
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 6: is absolutely correct. And that's another reason he hasn't maybe

547
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 6: had to repeat the crime yet because he's still living

548
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 6: this one. The family comes into CBS and he has

549
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 6: contact with them, you know, ask him, hey, do you

550
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 6: need anything. Maybe he goes to where Kelsey works. You know,

551
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 6: Kelsey always said she worried about that.

552
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: And that is the victim's sister had contact.

553
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 6: But I'll tell you something else. I guarantee you he

554
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 6: went to the funeral or the viewing. And I guarantee

555
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 6: you he was a volunteer searcher, whether it was official

556
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 6: or not. I guarantee he was out there.

557
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: Okay. I got a pretty good idea what may have

558
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 1: been burned and that fire pit. Take a listen to

559
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: our friend to me Johnson WISHTV.

560
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 13: Authorities also found that two articles of clothing from one

561
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 13: of the girls was missing from the crime scene, while

562
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 13: the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appeared

563
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 13: the girl's bodies were moved and staged. The agent goes

564
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 13: on to say, based upon my training and experience, it

565
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 13: is common for perpetrators of this type of crime to

566
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 13: take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene.

567
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 13: The agent also references the video on Libby's phone, confirming

568
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 13: it was forty three seconds long. Up until now, only

569
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 13: a few seconds have been made public.

570
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: That the girls were followed.

571
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 13: By the suspect on the Monon Highbridge trail, and that

572
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 13: there were no visible signs of a struggle or fight.

573
00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace to this day. Richard Allen

574
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: says he's the victim and that there's been a horrible

575
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: miscarriage of justice. Another oddity. Immediately after the girls go missing,

576
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: Kathy Allen, that's Richard Allen's wife of thirty four very

577
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: long years. I'm sure the mother of his daughter, Britney,

578
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: wanted to go search for the girls. We learned from

579
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: the New book Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders,

580
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: and the Dark Side of the American Heartland, and the

581
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: book is by journalist Amy Caine and lawyer Kevin Greenley.

582
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: They recount that the wife, Richard Allen's wife wanted to

583
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: go search for the girls. A lot of employers were

584
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: actually giving employees a day off to go and search

585
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: for the girls. Everyone was volunteering. Alan's wife, Kathy, wanted

586
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: to go and search, but Alan actively convinced his wife

587
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: not to get involved. What was actually said, we don't

588
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: know specifically, but we do know it was enough to

589
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: keep her from joining in the search. She also had

590
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: to convince Richard Allen, her own husband, to tell police

591
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: he was on the trails that day. He was reluctant

592
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: to call in the tip. Why what more do we know?

593
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: Fran Longwell joining US veteran trial lawyer, expertise homicide, What

594
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: do you make of that, friend.

595
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 5: I think that's totally that's natural. I think a lot

596
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 5: of them, a lot of serial killers, for sure, always

597
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 5: seemed to take some kind of souvenir. We had a

598
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 5: case years ago where they were finding bodies along the

599
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 5: Beltway and in areas for shortest County, and years and

600
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 5: years later, death suspect was found. He was able to

601
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 5: draw pictures of each feel what she looked like, and

602
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 5: he had some sulvenir each one of those murders. I

603
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 5: don't think that's unusual. I think that's part of their

604
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 5: excitement of the crime.

605
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: What about it, Karen Stark, New York psychologists joining us

606
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: today from Manhattan. What about taking souvenirs, It's very common.

607
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, all those scrapbooks I have of

608
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: the twins. I mean, I don't even know how many

609
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: I've got Birthday, Christening, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Birthday, just goes on

610
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: and on in summer vacation for every year they're fifteen. Karen,

611
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 1: those are my souvenirs.

612
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 14: But their souvenirs are of the crime, Nancy. They want

613
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 14: to relive it. That's the whole thing is that it's

614
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 14: exciting to them. So two pieces of clothing. I hate

615
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 14: to say this, but I have a feeling it will

616
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 14: be underwear, because they like to do that. To take underwear,

617
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 14: to take some kind of token that they've been there,

618
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 14: that they did is it gives them a really good

619
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 14: sense of themselves. They're powerful, they're aboveve the law and

620
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 14: they got away with them.

621
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:13,720
Speaker 1: And they're caught dead in the water. Cheryl McCollum. The

622
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: evidence would suggest this. What about the theory that the

623
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: girls were redressed and that somehow some of their clothing

624
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 1: were interchanged by accident.

625
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 6: Again, those of us in this business, redressing is something

626
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 6: that occurs.

627
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it's something that they have ted Bundy. Oh,

628
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: after the person was dead, he had redressed them and

629
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 1: do their hair and makeup, had bathed their bodies in

630
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: the pathtub at the house.

631
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 6: Is what keys did the same thing, make up, hair,

632
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,959
Speaker 6: redress them, pose them raiding the girl's hair like polk.

633
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh gosh, Yeah.

634
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 6: That's part of their fantasy. They're acting something out. So

635
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 6: a lot of times we focus on the murder, but

636
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 6: it is a sexually generated there's no question about it.

637
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 6: And again his computers, when you know, the superintendent mentioned

638
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 6: the lab so often, the electronic part, the biology, the

639
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 6: tool marks, the voice.

640
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: Analysis, the hares, the fiber, the blood, the blood, the

641
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: tool marks which is from a knife.

642
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 6: But I also think Arsen is going to be a

643
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 6: money tree.

644
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: To doctor Todd m bar now joining us, speaking of blood,

645
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: he is a board certified and atomic clinical forensic pathologist

646
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 1: joining us out of Ohio. He's featured in Thin Places

647
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: Essays from in Between and you can find them on

648
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: Twitter at Todd Barma. That's for medical examiner, doctor bar

649
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us and waiting for the

650
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: build up to the scientists, the medical examiners that ultimately

651
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 1: says there are no eyewitnesses as of yet will make

652
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: or break this case. We learned there are copious amounts

653
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: of blood at the scene. How is that likely to

654
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: have happened?

655
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 9: Well, Nancy, it seems to me. I know that there's

656
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 9: some speculation that possibly the throats of the victims had

657
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 9: been flashed, and you know, because the carotid arteries are

658
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 9: under such high pressure, there would be a lot of

659
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 9: spatter and disbursement of blood in the process. So you're

660
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 9: absolutely one hundred percent correct. That would be transfer of

661
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 9: that blood evidence not only onto the victim's clothing, but

662
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 9: also onto the perpetrator. So and my thought was, you know,

663
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 9: maybe he even was burying the murder weapon that in

664
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 9: the firepit area, possibly the clothing. And I've worked on

665
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 9: several serial killer cases before, and they do like to

666
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 9: take a trophy from uh, you know, it's in my

667
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 9: my experience that that that these articles that they collect

668
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 9: are basically like a trophy. And I have to also

669
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 9: think to myself that perhaps these people revisiting the case

670
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 9: trying to get involved in the case, there may even

671
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 9: be some notoriety element, like they actually want to be caught.

672
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 9: So I think that, you know, with a twenty million

673
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 9: dollar bond on this gentleman, there's got to be some

674
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 9: significant evidence that they found. I know it's all feeled,

675
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 9: but I'm very much concerned that there are other victims

676
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 9: that play here.

677
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 1: Wow, that was a lot of information, doctor Todd Barr.

678
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: So I'm just digesting everything that you just said. Got

679
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: a question. If this is, as we believe, a stabbing death,

680
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: I find very very unusual. I would have suspected a

681
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: strangling death or some sort of asphyxiation under these circumstances,

682
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: But due to the copious amounts of blood too, which

683
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: have been eluded in the documents, it leads me to

684
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: think that it is in fact a stabbing death. If

685
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 1: there are multiple stab wounds, such as in that Jody

686
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: Aria's case where Travis Alexander was stabbed twenty nine plus

687
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 1: times and then shot would you be able to match that.

688
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: They're called tool markings, match the wounds up to a

689
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,240
Speaker 1: particular knife.

690
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 15: And if so, how depending on the type of knife

691
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 15: that may have been used. If it was one that

692
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 15: had a serrated edge, you could actually if it if

693
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 15: the tool actually got into the bone in the area

694
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 15: that's that's where the tool marks are found when the

695
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 15: when the blade would pass over the bone, and if

696
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 15: it's serrated, they can actually match up those serrated edges

697
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 15: almost identically to show you know that a specific tool

698
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 15: was used. So if they do have the murder weapon

699
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 15: and they have evidence of serrations on the bone, than

700
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 15: that's very easily dematched up.

701
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: Five years after the murder, right years passed after the

702
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: murders before Richard Allen was arrested, a seemingly clerical error

703
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: meant the tip, a specific tip fell through the cracks,

704
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: but when it resurfaced, Richard Allen was re interviewed and

705
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 1: confirmed he was on the trail and wearing the same

706
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 1: outfit blue jeans and a car heart jacket as the

707
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: guy caught on camera by the victims. What more will

708
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: be uncovered? What more will be revealed about Richard Allen,

709
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,959
Speaker 1: now convicted in the murders of Abby and Libby, their

710
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,399
Speaker 1: young lives cut short. Chilling comments he made to his

711
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: mom after he murdered the two little girls now coming

712
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: to light. Don't worry, there will be an appeal and

713
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 1: wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off.

714
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 8: Mm hmm