WEBVTT - The Bums And Junkies Take Over:  Tim Sandefur Talks To Armstrong & Getty

0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.040
<v Speaker 1>So so much to talk about with Tim sander for

0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.080
<v Speaker 1>Vice President for Litigation the Goldwater Institute. Tim's latest book,

0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.959
<v Speaker 1>Freedom's Furies. How Isabel Patterson Rosewilder Lane ein Rand found

0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.480
<v Speaker 1>liberty in the age of darkness? In an age of darkness?

0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:14.360
<v Speaker 2>There are many owes.

0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:18.920
<v Speaker 1>You a facetive American history nobody ever talks about in

0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:23.880
<v Speaker 1>the twentieth century, how enamored the progressives were with totalitarians,

0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:28.000
<v Speaker 1>And on that note, perhaps introduced our crusader for liberty,

0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:29.200
<v Speaker 1>Tim sanderfer hate Tim.

0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:30.880
<v Speaker 3>Hey guys, thanks for having me on.

0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:33.640
<v Speaker 2>And as I always like to point out, referred to

0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:36.760
<v Speaker 2>as a national treasure by George will of The Washington Post,

0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:37.920
<v Speaker 2>Tim Sanderford.

0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:41.839
<v Speaker 3>But fortunately I'm not in a senator's closet like other treasures.

0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, that's gold bars. Wow, that is old school. Anyways.

0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:47.560
<v Speaker 3>I guess you go in there with a pocket knife

0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.120
<v Speaker 3>and like skim off a few shavings and use those

0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:51.680
<v Speaker 3>to go buy gas or something.

0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.920
<v Speaker 1>I guess I wonder if he actually had those sacks

0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:58.200
<v Speaker 1>of money with dollar signs on.

0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.080
<v Speaker 3>I was signing them like scooge McDuck.

0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.440
<v Speaker 1>You know, all right, Well, let's get down to business

0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:10.160
<v Speaker 1>there has been a seemingly large victory recently in Maricopa

0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:14.160
<v Speaker 1>County that's a Phoenix essentially Arizona, where a judge has

0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:17.000
<v Speaker 1>said enough with the junkie camps. Can you explain to

0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:17.760
<v Speaker 1>folks what happened.

0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:20.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So, this is a lawsuit that's been going on

0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:24.000
<v Speaker 3>for quite a while now because of the city purposely

0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.840
<v Speaker 3>creating an open air homeless shelter so to speak, in

0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:32.679
<v Speaker 3>the streets of downtown Phoenix, where over a thousand people

0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.840
<v Speaker 3>at a time have resided in tents right on the streets,

0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:39.000
<v Speaker 3>and that the city has been transporting the homeless people

0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:41.840
<v Speaker 3>to this area and then just saying do what you want,

0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.360
<v Speaker 3>We're not going to enforce the law, which of course

0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:48.480
<v Speaker 3>has been destroying the local businesses, ruining people's homes in

0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.800
<v Speaker 3>the area. It's been leading to there's been arson, there

0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:55.320
<v Speaker 3>have been dead bodies found in this area, all these

0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:59.320
<v Speaker 3>sorts of you know, sewage in the streets. So there's

0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.600
<v Speaker 3>a group of them filed a lawsuit, and what happened

0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.480
<v Speaker 3>earlier this week was a trial judge in America County

0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:09.760
<v Speaker 3>has declared that the city is maintaining a public nuisance

0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.480
<v Speaker 3>and must clear up the area before November fourth. That

0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.400
<v Speaker 3>means remove all the tents and get rid of the

0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:21.040
<v Speaker 3>sewage and stop allowing the law breaking in this area.

0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:26.079
<v Speaker 2>Get rid of the sewage is a sanitized way to

0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:27.560
<v Speaker 2>explain what was going on there.

0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you know, Arizona law, like what most states,

0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:35.959
<v Speaker 3>prohibits the people from polluting in a way that will

0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.799
<v Speaker 3>run off into the local rivers and things. And here

0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:40.440
<v Speaker 3>in Phoenix, you know we had when we get a

0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.720
<v Speaker 3>rain storm. Man, it's a huge flash flood rainstorm.

0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.600
<v Speaker 2>It's squashed looting, polluting, yet another loyally high follutin way

0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:51.200
<v Speaker 2>of saying people are crapping on the streets.

0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:54.119
<v Speaker 3>Exactly, that's right, and on the sides of people's buildings,

0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.399
<v Speaker 3>on their home. Our client in the case actually had

0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.760
<v Speaker 3>to replace the windows in his building because the urine

0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.320
<v Speaker 3>was so bad that it had rotted away the seals

0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:05.600
<v Speaker 3>on all of their windows.

0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:08.280
<v Speaker 2>That's gross.

0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.320
<v Speaker 3>Now, the reason this has been going on is not

0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:13.720
<v Speaker 3>just because the city has been refusing to enforce the law.

0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:15.480
<v Speaker 3>But when you ask the city, they say, well, our

0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:18.679
<v Speaker 3>hands are tied because the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals

0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.919
<v Speaker 3>has issued a couple decisions that say that it's unconstitutional

0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.000
<v Speaker 3>for us to arrest people for sleeping on the streets

0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.320
<v Speaker 3>if there are not enough shelter beds in homeless shelters

0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.960
<v Speaker 3>to give them a place to stay for the night. Now,

0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:36.880
<v Speaker 3>it is true. The Ninth Circuit issued a couple rulings,

0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.800
<v Speaker 3>one called Martin versus Boise, another ones called Johnson versus

0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.960
<v Speaker 3>Grants Pass that both do say that it's unconstitutional for

0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.400
<v Speaker 3>the government to arrest people for sleeping on the streets

0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:47.880
<v Speaker 3>if they can't help it, and they define can't help

0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:51.040
<v Speaker 3>it as there aren't enough shelter beds available. And worse

0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:54.920
<v Speaker 3>than that, the ruling actually excludes from the count any

0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:59.960
<v Speaker 3>shelter beds at churches, any shelter beds that churches operate.

0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.120
<v Speaker 3>Those are religious, those not secular, those don't count when

0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:04.520
<v Speaker 3>you count how many shelter bus.

0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:08.840
<v Speaker 2>So, so outlawing any Christian charity or church charity, that's fandast.

0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.480
<v Speaker 3>That's basically ruling out the number one source of homeless

0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:15.120
<v Speaker 3>shelters right anyway. So the big story here really is

0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.680
<v Speaker 3>that that one of those cases, the Grants Past case,

0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.840
<v Speaker 3>the people have now asked the U. S. Supreme Court

0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.479
<v Speaker 3>to take up that case, and in the ruling that

0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.600
<v Speaker 3>this judge in Phoenix issued he urges the U. S.

0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:28.520
<v Speaker 3>Supreme Court to take up that case. He says, to

0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.080
<v Speaker 3>the extent that a state trial judge could have any

0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.080
<v Speaker 3>influence on the US Supreme Court's decision to review a

0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.080
<v Speaker 3>lower court ruling. This judge respectfully urges the Supreme Court

0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.120
<v Speaker 3>to review that ruling and overrule it because it has

0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.560
<v Speaker 3>caused so much chaos in the Western States, because cities

0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.520
<v Speaker 3>see it as an excuse to not enforce laws against

0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:48.599
<v Speaker 3>loitering and camping and so forth.

0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.520
<v Speaker 1>Well, I was just going to ask, Tim, you know

0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.400
<v Speaker 1>so much more about this than we do, given the

0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:59.839
<v Speaker 1>unbelievable negative effects of that. You know, I usually cite

0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:03.480
<v Speaker 1>the ruling but grants pass as well. How has the

0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:07.599
<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court not looked into this, particularly given its current makeup.

0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:12.359
<v Speaker 3>The Court has this long standing tradition of allowing things

0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.400
<v Speaker 3>to develop in the lower courts before it takes up

0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:19.440
<v Speaker 3>an issue, and sometimes an important issue gets postponed for

0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.200
<v Speaker 3>years before the US Supreme Court finally decides to take

0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.560
<v Speaker 3>it up. But I don't see how they could possibly

0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:27.960
<v Speaker 3>refuse to take up the issue at this point. It

0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.080
<v Speaker 3>has caused so much chaos or I mean that's a

0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:33.640
<v Speaker 3>little bit unfair because, to be fair to the Ninth Circuit, there,

0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.360
<v Speaker 3>the Martin case and the grands Pass case both say

0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:40.520
<v Speaker 3>that cities can still enforce laws against camping in the streets,

0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.279
<v Speaker 3>at least under certain circumstances. And so what's actually happening

0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.400
<v Speaker 3>here in Phoenix is that the city officials are using

0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.040
<v Speaker 3>these cases as an excuse to not do their job.

0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.200
<v Speaker 3>And it's a colorable excuse. It's you know, it's it's

0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.719
<v Speaker 3>not a totally crazy interpretation of those cases. But it's

0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:59.080
<v Speaker 3>really the fault of local officials who are refusing to

0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.719
<v Speaker 3>take action because it's politically unpopular. They want us, you know, oh,

0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.520
<v Speaker 3>we have to build housing first. All these sorts of excuses,

0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:09.000
<v Speaker 3>and these these Ninth Circuit rulings are convenient excuses to

0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:10.040
<v Speaker 3>refuse to take actions.

0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, since you follow the Supreme Court so closely in

0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.599
<v Speaker 2>the thinking of all the justices, what do you think

0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:15.960
<v Speaker 2>they would do with this issue?

0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.320
<v Speaker 3>Oh? I think they would definitely overturn it because the

0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:21.960
<v Speaker 3>logic is crazy. What the Ninth Circuit says is a

0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:26.480
<v Speaker 3>person is involuntarily homeless if there aren't shelter beds available

0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:29.599
<v Speaker 3>for them, that the government provides, and therefore it's cruel

0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:32.960
<v Speaker 3>and unusual punishment to arrest them for sleeping on the streets.

0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.080
<v Speaker 3>This is crazy logic. By this logic, if I were

0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:37.800
<v Speaker 3>to go to a bar and get drunk and then

0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.960
<v Speaker 3>drive home drunk from the bar, it's not my fault

0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.000
<v Speaker 3>because the government didn't hire me an uber. You know,

0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.240
<v Speaker 3>the whole theory here is that people are incapable of

0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.159
<v Speaker 3>controlling themselves unless the government steps in and controls them

0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.080
<v Speaker 3>for them, and then otherwise they're just they're helpless little

0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.600
<v Speaker 3>waves who couldn't possibly take acts. It's a crazy way

0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:58.720
<v Speaker 3>of looking at the world, although you know there are

0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:00.919
<v Speaker 3>a lot of people who idlow logically just think that

0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.080
<v Speaker 3>you can't run your own life without the government stepping

0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:04.120
<v Speaker 3>in to hold your hand all the.

0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Time, right, you know, I'd have thought that because of

0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:13.080
<v Speaker 1>the enormous human cost of so many of these junkie camps,

0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.000
<v Speaker 1>as I generally refer to them, because addiction is the

0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:18.160
<v Speaker 1>number one reason for most of these people being on

0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.320
<v Speaker 1>the street, and certainly not exclusively, but it is. There

0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.480
<v Speaker 1>are just dens of drug addictions, but the number of

0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.200
<v Speaker 1>overdose deaths has shocked the conscience of every American over

0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:29.119
<v Speaker 1>the last several years.

0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:30.360
<v Speaker 2>I can't believe.

0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:34.160
<v Speaker 1>Maybe do the Supreme Court justices not get the nexus

0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:36.000
<v Speaker 1>between drug addiction and homelessness.

0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:40.240
<v Speaker 3>I think that the Ninth Circuit, you know, it's the

0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.000
<v Speaker 3>Ninth Circuit, And their view is that, you know, these

0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.600
<v Speaker 3>people need to be treated in some other fashion. We

0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.240
<v Speaker 3>shouldn't arrest them, we shouldn't in voluntarily take them and

0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:54.000
<v Speaker 3>move them somewhere else, and these sorts of things, and

0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.440
<v Speaker 3>this is a sort of false compassion. They think that, well,

0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.120
<v Speaker 3>we don't want to be cruel to these people, Okay,

0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.640
<v Speaker 3>so you're all alternative is to let them sleep on

0:08:01.680 --> 0:08:03.760
<v Speaker 3>the streets, and not just sleep on the streets, but

0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.480
<v Speaker 3>for well over a year now in Phoenix, Arizona, where

0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:09.760
<v Speaker 3>in the summer it gets one hundred and twenty degrees

0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.280
<v Speaker 3>and during the pandemic. This is what you think is

0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:18.200
<v Speaker 3>a more compassionate alternative than getting these people treatment, even

0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:22.160
<v Speaker 3>if it might be quote involuntary treatment. And that logic

0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:22.720
<v Speaker 3>escapes me.

0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, then in n angle always bring up us how

0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.320
<v Speaker 2>about compassion for taxpayers and business owners? So is there

0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.680
<v Speaker 2>any way to have the law be leaning toward how

0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.280
<v Speaker 2>about my right to live in this neighborhood and go

0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.080
<v Speaker 2>to my local park and not be afraid or not

0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:39.840
<v Speaker 2>have junkies in the doorway of my business, so I

0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:40.800
<v Speaker 2>can operate.

0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:44.840
<v Speaker 3>Totally right, absolutely, the real victims here of what Phoenix

0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:48.040
<v Speaker 3>has done, I mean, the homeless have suffered badly enough,

0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.480
<v Speaker 3>But on top of that, the real victims are the innocent,

0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:52.960
<v Speaker 3>tax paying property owners and business owners in this area.

0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.480
<v Speaker 3>The New York Times a while back profiled one of

0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.200
<v Speaker 3>the business owners, a guy who runs a really well

0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:01.640
<v Speaker 3>known sandwich shop. Who's I mean, not only have has

0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:03.800
<v Speaker 3>it there been the pollution. Not only do people just

0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:05.400
<v Speaker 3>not come there anymore because they don't want to be

0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:05.840
<v Speaker 3>around them.

0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:07.560
<v Speaker 2>I like what you call human crap pollution.

0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.120
<v Speaker 3>But go on, but a lot of homeless people are

0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.600
<v Speaker 3>coming into the business, harassing and endangering the employees. He

0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.560
<v Speaker 3>has to then he's basically being drafted into being a

0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:22.679
<v Speaker 3>psychological counselor for people with mental problems and drug addiction,

0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:24.720
<v Speaker 3>right because the government refuses to come in and do

0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.720
<v Speaker 3>its job. Now, what are the alternative? There is actually

0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.959
<v Speaker 3>a proposal that we've been working on that says, if

0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.440
<v Speaker 3>the government fails to do its job under these kinds

0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:35.840
<v Speaker 3>of circumstances and it destroys the value of your property.

0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.400
<v Speaker 3>The government should compensate you for the loss of property value,

0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.040
<v Speaker 3>because they're the ones that fault for ruining your property.

0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:43.960
<v Speaker 3>And we will have more to say on that once

0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:47.960
<v Speaker 3>we've developed more among those lines really interesting.

0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Tim Sander for Vice President for Litigation at the Goldwater Institute.

0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:54.040
<v Speaker 2>Tim I came across an.

0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:58.200
<v Speaker 1>Article in the USA today surprisingly about a woman who

0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.920
<v Speaker 1>is being denied the right to open to business because

0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:04.840
<v Speaker 1>she wasn't able to get one of those certificates of necessity.

0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Is that what they're called? Yeah, that's right.

0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:10.880
<v Speaker 3>These are basically permit laws that say they don't have

0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.160
<v Speaker 3>anything to do with whether you are capable or whether

0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:15.120
<v Speaker 3>you have the education or card. It doesn't have anything

0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:16.960
<v Speaker 3>to do with that. These are laws that say you

0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:20.400
<v Speaker 3>have to first get permission from all of the competitors

0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:23.120
<v Speaker 3>who are already in that industry before you're allowed to

0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.040
<v Speaker 3>start a business. And guess what, they usually say no

0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:29.079
<v Speaker 3>because they don't want economic competition. And these kinds of

0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:32.240
<v Speaker 3>laws are called con laws. Appropriately enough, these kinds of

0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:35.760
<v Speaker 3>laws apply to everything from moving companies to medical clinics

0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:38.480
<v Speaker 3>in this country, and it's totally insane and in my view,

0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:39.840
<v Speaker 3>totally unconstitutional.

0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, we'll have more on that to come. We

0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.720
<v Speaker 1>appreciate the time very much. Keep fighting the good fight. Yeah,

0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, sometimes I think sanity might have a chance.

0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:52.079
<v Speaker 1>Not often, but occasionally.

0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.200
<v Speaker 3>I'll tell you, guys, the law part is my job,

0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:57.760
<v Speaker 3>the sanity part, that's your job.

0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:03.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, God to help them, Erica. Effluvium is my favorite

0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.559
<v Speaker 1>word for human waste. By the way, it's so musical.

0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Tim Sandifer, good to talk to you, Tim, Thanks Budd

0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:12.600
<v Speaker 3>Thanks guys, Armstrong and Getty