1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,040
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Mark

2
00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,160
Speaker 1: Moss Show, where we talk always about the decentralized revolution,

3
00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:07,520
Speaker 1: how the world is of course changing right before our

4
00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:09,880
Speaker 1: very eyes, and always looking at it through the lens

5
00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,480
Speaker 1: of politics, of finance and technology. And of course that

6
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,080
Speaker 1: technology that's always changing in the world I like to

7
00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,560
Speaker 1: think about is bitcoin. And I have an old school

8
00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,759
Speaker 1: bitcoin guy here with me in studio today, Jeffy Jeffrey Wernick.

9
00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,320
Speaker 1: He's an investor, self proclaimed anarcho capitalist. He's been an investor,

10
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,560
Speaker 1: strategic advisor to Parlor, a co founder of the Parallel

11
00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,840
Speaker 1: Economy with Dan Bongino, and so much more. Super excited

12
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,559
Speaker 1: for this conversation, jeff thanks so much for joining me.

13
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:37,519
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me.

14
00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,400
Speaker 1: You know, I love I've been looking forward to this

15
00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,760
Speaker 1: interview because, you know, something that you've been focused on

16
00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,520
Speaker 1: for a really long time with something that I'm super

17
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:48,760
Speaker 1: focused on, and that's sort of just building the world

18
00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 1: that we want. Like Socrates said, don't don't you know,

19
00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 1: don't focus on fighting the old, just go build the new,

20
00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,880
Speaker 1: and you've been sort of doing that through Parlor and

21
00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 1: Parallel Economy. I know we talked about before we started

22
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,000
Speaker 1: recording a little bit about Parlor. We don't need to

23
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,800
Speaker 1: go back all through that, but it is pretty interesting.

24
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,560
Speaker 1: You know, for those that don't know, maybe you can

25
00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,240
Speaker 1: kind of just fill us in a little bit. You

26
00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 1: jumped in to kind of advise Parlor, but then they

27
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,720
Speaker 1: drew a lot of heat and got canceled. Yes, maybe

28
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,119
Speaker 1: it'll just kind of run us through that experience.

29
00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:23,319
Speaker 2: Well, the.

30
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,760
Speaker 3: First I could say, I predicted it would happen when

31
00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,440
Speaker 3: I when I first invested in Pauler, And maybe I

32
00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,240
Speaker 3: should give a little background on how even.

33
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:33,760
Speaker 2: Got to the point.

34
00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:34,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be great.

35
00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,960
Speaker 3: In twenty I've basically lived my life as a as

36
00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:45,120
Speaker 3: a as a very private person. In twenty sixteen election night,

37
00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,279
Speaker 3: I had a bunch of friends together. I had placed

38
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,000
Speaker 3: the bet that Trump would lose the popular vote when

39
00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,200
Speaker 3: the electoral vote, and so all the people on the

40
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,600
Speaker 3: other side of the bed, I hosted a dinner so

41
00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,200
Speaker 3: that I thought that they can have a good opportunity

42
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,600
Speaker 3: to cry after or the outcome they had hoped for

43
00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:07,480
Speaker 3: didn't happen. And so after as the dinner was wrapping up,

44
00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:10,840
Speaker 3: you know, I asked the question. I said, I'm asking

45
00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,280
Speaker 3: a serious question, and The question I asked was who

46
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,680
Speaker 3: lost tonight? So people said, oh, Jeff, don't rub it in,

47
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,320
Speaker 3: we know Hillary lost. I said no, I said, I'm

48
00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,400
Speaker 3: asking more a more serious question. I said, today free

49
00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,040
Speaker 3: speech died. I said this, all the all the platforms

50
00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,840
Speaker 3: that described themselves as free speech platforms will no longer

51
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:40,720
Speaker 3: embrace free speech. So the twenty sixteen twenty sixteen so

52
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,680
Speaker 3: so in twenty nineteen, several of the people who were

53
00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:45,960
Speaker 3: at that dinner.

54
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:48,720
Speaker 1: Before we go back, what was it that happened in

55
00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:50,919
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen that that you made that statement over.

56
00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:56,360
Speaker 3: Because I felt that that that that the people that

57
00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:02,680
Speaker 3: the Trump victory was something that many people thought was incredulous,

58
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:06,640
Speaker 3: and that what enabled the victory was his use of

59
00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 3: social media, and therefore the social media platforms, who could

60
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 3: not contemplate that he would actually be president, you know,

61
00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:18,520
Speaker 3: would no longer embrace, you know, the type of somewhat

62
00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,160
Speaker 3: free speech absolutism that they had reasonably embraced prior to

63
00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,120
Speaker 3: twenty sixteen. So I thought they would all get into

64
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,640
Speaker 3: what's now considered was now called the content moderation business.

65
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,839
Speaker 1: Because so because an anti establishment person like Trump came

66
00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 1: out of nowhere and rose to presidency, which was not

67
00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,240
Speaker 1: in their plans. They realized that they had somehow lost

68
00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,080
Speaker 1: control of the narrative. And so you're saying that, You're like, well,

69
00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:43,840
Speaker 1: they realized that. So they knew that they were going

70
00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,120
Speaker 1: to have to regain control somehow and that would be

71
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:46,880
Speaker 1: a through censorship.

72
00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,640
Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah, correct. So you know, so.

73
00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,160
Speaker 3: In twenty nineteen, I had several people who were very

74
00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,040
Speaker 3: well aware of my position and the fact that also

75
00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,160
Speaker 3: that I have a reputation for funding things that most

76
00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,760
Speaker 3: people are not willing to put money into. At the

77
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 3: same time, I had people approach me about funding GAB

78
00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,800
Speaker 3: and funding Paula. So I met with Andrew Torba, uh,

79
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,599
Speaker 3: and I and I met with John mates My my

80
00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,960
Speaker 3: judgment about Torba at the time described himself as a

81
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,520
Speaker 3: as a as a bitcoin loving libertarian.

82
00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:29,400
Speaker 2: Uh.

83
00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,839
Speaker 3: And uh John Mats just described himself as a libertarian.

84
00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 2: Uh.

85
00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,320
Speaker 3: They all seemed committed, reasonably committed to free speech.

86
00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:38,200
Speaker 2: Uh.

87
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,520
Speaker 3: I can't say I did extensive due diligence, because I didn't. Uh,

88
00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,960
Speaker 3: But at least from the limited due diligence I did.

89
00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,320
Speaker 3: You know, I saw that they were the only real, quote,

90
00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,719
Speaker 3: you know, free speech platforms out there, uh you know,

91
00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,680
Speaker 3: and uh, so I think I gave my I had

92
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,920
Speaker 3: created one entity that that gave Pauler about a million

93
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,200
Speaker 3: and a half dollars, and I created another entity that

94
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,760
Speaker 3: that gave GAB I think about six hundred thousand dollars,

95
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,160
Speaker 3: so GAB would have enough money to as what they

96
00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,960
Speaker 3: had represented to me. They wanted to hire engineers and

97
00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,880
Speaker 3: who were reluctant to come on board because of its

98
00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,159
Speaker 3: balance sheet, and also so they could get the service

99
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 3: to be independent. Paula had a different use of the money.

100
00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:32,080
Speaker 3: And basically GAB just wanted my money. Paula wanted me

101
00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,040
Speaker 3: as a mentor. So I basically gave each one of

102
00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 3: them one. Gab just wanted my money, so that's what

103
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 3: they got. Paula wanted my mentorship, you know, and my money.

104
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:47,160
Speaker 3: And and so I got intimately involved in Paula.

105
00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:48,560
Speaker 2: I was I was in a.

106
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 3: Daily contact with the founder, you know, usually multiple hours

107
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:58,160
Speaker 3: a day, and it became probably the biggest allocation of

108
00:05:58,160 --> 00:05:59,119
Speaker 3: my time by far.

109
00:05:59,520 --> 00:05:59,680
Speaker 2: You know.

110
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,479
Speaker 3: During twenty twenty, I was on the phone with the

111
00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,599
Speaker 3: last conversation with Google. I was on the phone with

112
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,800
Speaker 3: the last two conversations with Amazon. So I'm not surprised

113
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:17,200
Speaker 3: by the outcome. I had always insisted that once Pauler scaled,

114
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,400
Speaker 3: everybody would attempt to cancel it, and I had been

115
00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,719
Speaker 3: an advocate for building a. I wanted to decentralize Paula.

116
00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,680
Speaker 3: I wanted to basically convert it into a dow and

117
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,080
Speaker 3: a blockchain project and and and not be on any

118
00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 3: big tech platform. I think that given the fact how

119
00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,479
Speaker 3: successful Paula became, you know, during twenty twenty, it became

120
00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,359
Speaker 3: the most downloaded app in the world. That you know,

121
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:52,520
Speaker 3: sometimes people get complacent and their priorities change, and people

122
00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,599
Speaker 3: have a different assessment of risk and probabilities. And I

123
00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,080
Speaker 3: think maybe I was the only one, you know, in

124
00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,480
Speaker 3: Paula who who believed it that the future of Paula

125
00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,400
Speaker 3: was as a web app and with its with its

126
00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:06,400
Speaker 3: own infrastructure.

127
00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:07,279
Speaker 2: Uh.

128
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,760
Speaker 3: And that with a web I should say, a website,

129
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,080
Speaker 3: not an app, because I didn't think Paula would stay

130
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:15,920
Speaker 3: you know, on the app store. So for me, I

131
00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,880
Speaker 3: didn't I didn't bet on Paula based upon its ability

132
00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,040
Speaker 3: to stay you know, in an app store. I can

133
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,480
Speaker 3: tell you in my opinion, you know, if you look

134
00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 3: at the evidence that is today, you know, about how

135
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 3: many of the people who were who've been indicted, you know,

136
00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,680
Speaker 3: and convicted, how many parlor accounts, how many were active

137
00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,960
Speaker 3: on parlor accounts? I could do that. I spoke with

138
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,080
Speaker 3: I spoke with many people in the media, and I

139
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,520
Speaker 3: would ask this question. I said, how can Paula facilitate

140
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,000
Speaker 3: an insurrection any type of movement? I said, one is,

141
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,040
Speaker 3: most of the people, if you probably look at many

142
00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,560
Speaker 3: of these people, if they had a parlor account, they

143
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,040
Speaker 3: were using a pseudonym. So I said, how can you

144
00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 3: find anyone on Paula with a pseudonym? Paula had a

145
00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,000
Speaker 3: very poor search capacity, so you can't go and find it.

146
00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,360
Speaker 3: Paula did not have groups. People who had used pseudonyms

147
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,720
Speaker 3: could not DM other people with pseudonyms. So how is

148
00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,000
Speaker 3: anybody going to organize anything on Paula? And said, nobody

149
00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 3: is organizing anything on Paula. It just explained to me,

150
00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,000
Speaker 3: how is it going to happen? How is somebody going

151
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:17,960
Speaker 3: to find the group of people and communicate with a

152
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,120
Speaker 3: group of people that they can't create a group. Okay,

153
00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,000
Speaker 3: they can't DM each other, you know, so how they

154
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,240
Speaker 3: going to recognize the other and coordinate activities with each other.

155
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,760
Speaker 3: Now they're going to have to go to signal, telegram,

156
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,400
Speaker 3: other other platforms that facilitate the making the groups and

157
00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,600
Speaker 3: encrypted and encrypted communications. Yeah, you know Paula. Paula didn't

158
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,360
Speaker 3: have those attributes. So why do you think Pauler is

159
00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 3: any sort of threat. Well, Paula has a whole bunch

160
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,920
Speaker 3: of people expressing their point of view, and they're expressing

161
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,240
Speaker 3: it and hopefully a few people will read it. But

162
00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:55,360
Speaker 3: there's no organizational capacity that's ever going to happen on Paula. So, uh,

163
00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,040
Speaker 3: you know, so it was clear to me, you know

164
00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,480
Speaker 3: that in my opinion, you know, these are just people

165
00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,880
Speaker 3: who I have a very simple, uh speculation on what happened.

166
00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,719
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's let's let's let's talk about that when

167
00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,360
Speaker 1: we come back. I got to take a really quick break,

168
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,000
Speaker 1: but I'd love to hear that. So everybody listening, we're

169
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,599
Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break. If you're just tune in,

170
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,600
Speaker 1: you're listening to the Mark mass Show. I'm sitting down

171
00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,680
Speaker 1: joined by with Jeffery Wernick, and we're talking about parlor,

172
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,880
Speaker 1: but we're really talking about censorship and freedom and tech

173
00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,040
Speaker 1: and government. So we're gonna come back and hear more

174
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:24,880
Speaker 1: about the summary from that in a second. I got

175
00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:26,720
Speaker 1: to take a really quick break though, but we'll.

176
00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:27,120
Speaker 2: Be right back.

177
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,599
Speaker 1: Don't go away, all right, Welcome back. If you're just

178
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,679
Speaker 1: tune in, you're listening to the Mark mass Show. I'm

179
00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,280
Speaker 1: joined by Jeffrey Wernick. We're talking about censorship, we're talking

180
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,400
Speaker 1: about government coersion, and we're talking about Parlor specifically. So Jeff,

181
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:40,800
Speaker 1: before the break, you were about to kind of give

182
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,160
Speaker 1: us that little quick summary of what you saw there.

183
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,000
Speaker 3: What I what I what I think happened is I

184
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,280
Speaker 3: learned this after the fact, But when when we had

185
00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:56,640
Speaker 3: meetings after when Paula had meetings after uh it was deplatformed,

186
00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,520
Speaker 3: and was discussing whether there were anything that they could

187
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,400
Speaker 3: take legal actions against. So there were calls with an

188
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 3: attorney that Rebecca Mercer hired, and we were all on

189
00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,640
Speaker 3: the phone with calls and all discussing all the communications.

190
00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 3: And I learned in one of those calls that someone

191
00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:16,600
Speaker 3: from Amazon made contact with John Mates, the founder of Pauler,

192
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,080
Speaker 3: as John described in these calls, and basically this person

193
00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,440
Speaker 3: from Amazon, this was like two or three days before

194
00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:31,120
Speaker 3: Amazon annihilated Pauler. They asked John mats if Trump was

195
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,840
Speaker 3: coming onto Paula. So John, from what I recalled, John

196
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,160
Speaker 3: said yes, Trump was coming onto Paarler and that he

197
00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:44,520
Speaker 3: expected like twenty twenty five million more you know uses

198
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,240
Speaker 3: that more accounts, which basically would have a little more

199
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,120
Speaker 3: than double the size of Pauler to join Paula. So

200
00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,240
Speaker 3: I think they were fishing. This is right after Trump

201
00:10:54,320 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 3: got removed from every other platform, so I, in my opinion,

202
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,000
Speaker 3: and again this is a speculation, the target was Trump

203
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,320
Speaker 3: at that point in time. They didn't want Trump to

204
00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:10,640
Speaker 3: have another platform, uh and Uh, Paula was already was

205
00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,840
Speaker 3: the most downloaded app in the world. They wanted to

206
00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,679
Speaker 3: stop Trump, in my opinion, and so they wanted to

207
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,040
Speaker 3: make sure Trump did not have a voice, and the

208
00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,360
Speaker 3: best place for him to have a voice would have

209
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 3: been Paular because Paula had the capacity for scaling uh

210
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,640
Speaker 3: and and I think that they wanted to prevent that. Yeah,

211
00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:34,080
Speaker 3: So so I I that's that's I do not necessarily

212
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,240
Speaker 3: the fear was Pauler. I think the fear was Trump

213
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,560
Speaker 3: being able to have, you know, a platform that large

214
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,920
Speaker 3: to continue yea to express his opinions.

215
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,800
Speaker 1: It's not a far fetched assumption you know, we have

216
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,280
Speaker 1: a video recording of Biden saying if Trump runs again,

217
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,120
Speaker 1: We're gonna do everything we can to stop him. And

218
00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,040
Speaker 1: now he has like eighty indictments, so we can see,

219
00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,199
Speaker 1: we can see where that's headed. But you know, I

220
00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:58,880
Speaker 1: appreciate you setting that up for us. You know, when

221
00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,920
Speaker 1: for everybody not really tuned in, when, when when that happened?

222
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,439
Speaker 1: And to the point of the story, then Amazon basically

223
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 1: kicked it out, The app store kicked it out, Amazon

224
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,280
Speaker 1: server shut it down. And that leads us back to

225
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,120
Speaker 1: the topic that I really wanted to talk about, which

226
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,640
Speaker 1: was so in twenty sixteen, you saw Trump win in

227
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,040
Speaker 1: and you go, oh, shoot, this is the end of

228
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,600
Speaker 1: free speech. And you had written some articles and you

229
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,080
Speaker 1: had talked about how our system has a trust deficit

230
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:29,520
Speaker 1: and there's distrust distrust in media and partisan politics, and

231
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,920
Speaker 1: so I think this all ties in the way that

232
00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,440
Speaker 1: I'm seeing it because they need to control the narrative

233
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,480
Speaker 1: and they want us to trust them, but the Internet

234
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,800
Speaker 1: has created a way where we can get all the information,

235
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,400
Speaker 1: and now it creates distrust.

236
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:43,880
Speaker 3: What were you talking.

237
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,240
Speaker 1: About when you're talking about the system having a trust deficit?

238
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,800
Speaker 3: Well, I think I think, you know, you have I've

239
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,000
Speaker 3: argued for a long time that there's no such thing

240
00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,960
Speaker 3: as a trusted third party. So given the fact that

241
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 3: I think that you have no such thing as a

242
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,960
Speaker 3: trusted part third party because to the extent that we

243
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 3: delegate anoint uh you know, trope or legislate trusted third parties,

244
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,439
Speaker 3: then the interest that trusted third party is to pervert

245
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,680
Speaker 3: is to preserve its monopoly status as a quote a

246
00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,560
Speaker 3: trusted third party. So and they get that mostly by force,

247
00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,200
Speaker 3: not by you know, being transparent, you know, in a

248
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:28,880
Speaker 3: way that would further uh make people trust. So so

249
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,120
Speaker 3: you know, for me, I think I think the the

250
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,440
Speaker 3: the the only opportunity we have in building a society,

251
00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,160
Speaker 3: uh is with trustless technology and peer to peer relationships,

252
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,800
Speaker 3: you know, I think I think that, uh and to

253
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,240
Speaker 3: the extent that if we are going to have gatekeepers,

254
00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,040
Speaker 3: that there's choice, that people can choose their gatekeeper rather

255
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,360
Speaker 3: having those gatekeepers chosen for them.

256
00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,679
Speaker 2: So so anyone, you.

257
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,080
Speaker 3: Know, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so to

258
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,480
Speaker 3: the extent that once you have a gatekeeper, you know,

259
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,760
Speaker 3: typically like you know, like most people when they have

260
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,840
Speaker 3: positions of authority, they get co opted by some special

261
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,640
Speaker 3: interest and they begin to represent that special interest. So

262
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,200
Speaker 3: to expect any person to remain neutral, Okay, the only

263
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,000
Speaker 3: the only way, the only way to have neutrality is

264
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,560
Speaker 3: through competition, not regulation. Is to choice, is giving people options.

265
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,080
Speaker 3: So the only way, the only way we'll have neutrality

266
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,840
Speaker 3: is decisions made voluntarily in the marketplace, you know, not

267
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,480
Speaker 3: through not through coercion and force, which means that we

268
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,200
Speaker 3: have to not it means that we have to eliminate

269
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:36,640
Speaker 3: friction wherever exists.

270
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 2: So so, you know.

271
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,760
Speaker 3: So we have to be able to create these platforms

272
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,080
Speaker 3: that are that are that that eliminate friction. And I

273
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 3: think is the more we eliminate friction, you know, the

274
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,440
Speaker 3: more we will enhance trust. And obviously, those people who

275
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,960
Speaker 3: are in the business of mediating trust through them do

276
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,240
Speaker 3: not want to see, you know, that model evolve because

277
00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,680
Speaker 3: that's a great threat to them and and they want

278
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,520
Speaker 3: to preserve, you know, the perks of of of of

279
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,080
Speaker 3: the privileges that they currently enjoy, so to the extent

280
00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,320
Speaker 3: that they have to convince everyone in the absence of

281
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 3: a gatekeeper, this chaos to fear the absence of the gatekeeper,

282
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,560
Speaker 3: that the gatekeeper is the adult in the room, and

283
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,320
Speaker 3: that and that we're in that we're going to be

284
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,760
Speaker 3: in a hobbsy and state of war, man against man,

285
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,320
Speaker 3: women against woman, you know, person against person, in a

286
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 3: constant state of war. And the only thing that prevents

287
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,160
Speaker 3: that are the gatekeepers. So so that's how that's how

288
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,880
Speaker 3: they have to demonize, you know, anyone who challenges the

289
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,560
Speaker 3: gatekeeper model is they have to sell fear uh and

290
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:46,200
Speaker 3: the consequences of their not being gatekeepers. Uh And and

291
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:50,440
Speaker 3: and so I think that I do not And and

292
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,040
Speaker 3: given the fact that we now have you know, greater

293
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 3: access to information, you know, we have, we we it's

294
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,120
Speaker 3: easier for us to find learn the number of ways

295
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,120
Speaker 3: why we can't trust and shouldn't trust the people who

296
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:03,360
Speaker 3: tell us we should trust them.

297
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,440
Speaker 1: Right, Well, we have these trusted third parties. We have

298
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,600
Speaker 1: the central Bank managing our money. Of course, we have

299
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,400
Speaker 1: no transparency and they've proven time time again we can't

300
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,760
Speaker 1: trust them. We have Facebook trust a third party, but

301
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,280
Speaker 1: again steals our data mismanages. We see that we have

302
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,440
Speaker 1: Wells Fargo and they're constantly putting fake bank accounts on there.

303
00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,200
Speaker 1: So over and over and over we see, to your point,

304
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,800
Speaker 1: these trusted third parties violate that trust, and so we

305
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:28,760
Speaker 1: find out over and over again. And it's easy if

306
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,520
Speaker 1: you just understand that human nature to the point that

307
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,360
Speaker 1: you're making is always going to want to take control,

308
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,600
Speaker 1: maintain that power, and then so thereby they start to

309
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 1: violate that trust. You talked about how really like the

310
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,600
Speaker 1: way that the United States and the Constitution was set

311
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,400
Speaker 1: up was a way so that we didn't have to

312
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,320
Speaker 1: trust or I think or it prevented these big trusted

313
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,359
Speaker 1: third parties from being formed in sort of this decentralized

314
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 1: trustless manner where you had like these checks and balances, yes.

315
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,040
Speaker 3: And checks and balances that we to a great extent,

316
00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:00,360
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court, which was supposed to be the least

317
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 3: dangerous branch, that that might be the most dangerous branch,

318
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,240
Speaker 3: you know, has he has eroded, you know, most of

319
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,679
Speaker 3: our inalienable rights. You now have people going to the

320
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,000
Speaker 3: courts that we're not willing that will not overtly acknowledge

321
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,439
Speaker 3: that we have that we even have and possess inalienable rights.

322
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 3: And so if we get people who who who challenge

323
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,639
Speaker 3: the concept that we don't have inalienable rights, you know,

324
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,960
Speaker 3: then then that that's that's the most fundamental thing, you

325
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,359
Speaker 3: know in the prostitute the Constitution is our property rights

326
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 3: and our inalienable rights. James Madison said, we have rights

327
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,159
Speaker 3: in our property and property and our rights. So I

328
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,800
Speaker 3: think I think, you know, I think that's a very

329
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,680
Speaker 3: very important concept because our rights are also our property,

330
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,280
Speaker 3: so and the and the kind, and and and we're

331
00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 3: told that that that there's a takings clause that says

332
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,520
Speaker 3: the only time, you know, a right can be taken

333
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,679
Speaker 3: away from us is if it serves some public utility

334
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,320
Speaker 3: and we're compensated for it.

335
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:56,960
Speaker 1: I got to stop you there for a second. If

336
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,880
Speaker 1: you're just tune in, you're listening to the Mark Mass Show.

337
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,000
Speaker 1: I'm talking with Jeffrey Warnick. We're talking about the loss

338
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,080
Speaker 1: of trust in our institutions, and we're going to come

339
00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,040
Speaker 1: back and talk about some ways that we think we

340
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,120
Speaker 1: could restore this. I got to take a very quick break.

341
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,239
Speaker 1: Don't go away, I'll be right back, all right, Welcome back.

342
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 1: If you just tune in, you're listening to the Mark

343
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,159
Speaker 1: Mass Show. I'm sitting down with Jeffrey Warnick. We are

344
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 1: talking about the loss of trust in these institutions and

345
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 1: right before the break, we were talking about how the

346
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,479
Speaker 1: branches of government were supposed to be decentralized and have

347
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 1: this checks and balances, but they've been sort of moving

348
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,280
Speaker 1: more and more and more into this single party rule

349
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,960
Speaker 1: and really just one division. I mean, you hear the

350
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,320
Speaker 1: rhetoric all the time, specifically coming from one side of

351
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,119
Speaker 1: the aisle right now today about packing the court. The

352
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,639
Speaker 1: Supreme Court has become activist judges and we need to

353
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 1: overrule them or we need to make them irrelevant. And

354
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 1: so those are things I guess that you're saying that

355
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 1: I'm seeing where they're trying to really consolidate that power down.

356
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,800
Speaker 1: Both parties are really kind of like this uniparty and

357
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 1: so they can have absolute control them And is that

358
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:59,680
Speaker 1: kind of what you're seeing, Yes, Yeah, And I guess

359
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:00,959
Speaker 1: you know, at the end of the day, there's just

360
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:06,199
Speaker 1: really no way to At some point, we always have

361
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,040
Speaker 1: to have we're always going to have to place faith

362
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,679
Speaker 1: or trust in something in some sort of institution, and

363
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,760
Speaker 1: so I guess it's just a matter of limiting the

364
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,400
Speaker 1: amount of faith or trust that we have to give

365
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 1: to that person. And you made a great quote. I

366
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 1: wrote it down. You said the only way to neutrality

367
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,879
Speaker 1: is through competition. And so let's say, for example, I

368
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 1: love to think about email right now, because like with email,

369
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,480
Speaker 1: I own my email list and I can choose to

370
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 1: use which email client I want. So I could use Mailchimp.

371
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,159
Speaker 1: A long time ago, I use Mailchimp, and they said, oh,

372
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,800
Speaker 1: you're talking about cryptocurrencies. You can't be on mailchimp anymore.

373
00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:47,120
Speaker 1: So I took my email list and I just went

374
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,760
Speaker 1: to active campaign. Or I could leave and I can

375
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,440
Speaker 1: go to proton and have private email. But I own

376
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 1: the list, and then I can choose my client that

377
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,480
Speaker 1: I want. I have to trust proton mail or Gmail.

378
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,520
Speaker 1: If they violate my trust because there's competition there, then

379
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,880
Speaker 1: I can move to the next platform. Is that sort

380
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 1: of how you envision that?

381
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,360
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that we gotta, we gotta. We got to eliminate.

382
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 3: We got to figure out how to eliminate all barriers

383
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,439
Speaker 3: to entry, you know, and then trust and trust the

384
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 3: process associated with eliminating all barriers to entry, where so

385
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 3: all outcomes are market based outcomes based upon people's voluntary choices.

386
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 3: So that's that's better than any system.

387
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,399
Speaker 2: That relies upon coercion.

388
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,400
Speaker 3: So, uh, I think the the the expectation from almost

389
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 3: all the founders were that the government would be very,

390
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 3: very limited. And almost all of them, even even even

391
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 3: like Hamilton, who believed in the in the bank of

392
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,120
Speaker 3: you know, the the National Bank, almost all of them

393
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 3: believed in the concept that the government, that that that

394
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 3: that tyranny was unavoidable and inevitable. You know, if you

395
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,359
Speaker 3: got government involved in money, that there should always be

396
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 3: a separation of state and money. So if you once,

397
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 3: once you corrupt money, you corrupt everything that passes through

398
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 3: that process of of the of the of the movement

399
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 3: of money.

400
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: Uh.

401
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 2: And so they.

402
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 3: Founders, the Framers were very aware of having studied history

403
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 3: of you know, the adverse consequences associated with the debasement

404
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 3: of money, and what usually caused people to debase money

405
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 3: the same way we've debased money. It's usually when you

406
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,119
Speaker 3: decide you want to be instead of a nation of

407
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 3: sovereign individuals. So the United States started as a nation

408
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 3: of sovereign individuals. Then it became a sovereign nation of serfs,

409
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,960
Speaker 3: you know, and then it became you know, an empire,

410
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 3: you know, filled with slaves. So I think that's the evolution,

411
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,840
Speaker 3: you know, of the United States. You know, it's currently

412
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 3: an empire, and you know, and people are slaves to

413
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 3: that empire, and and and that would not have been

414
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 3: possible with a sound money regime. So it's required, as

415
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 3: almost every war has required, you know, the debasement of money.

416
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 3: So if you look throughout history, you know what what

417
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 3: funded conquering other people's was the basement of money. So

418
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 3: that that so that is what has enabled you know,

419
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 3: the expansion of you know, the American Empire. Is it's

420
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 3: it's it's the basement of money. And it's very simple.

421
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,440
Speaker 3: Just look what happened, you know, to the purchasing power

422
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 3: of money. You know, since we abandoned any sort of

423
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:25,879
Speaker 3: linkage to gold in seventy.

424
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,199
Speaker 2: One, uh and uh and.

425
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 3: And we haven't necessarily diminished business cycles. You know, we've

426
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 3: seen we've seen the purchasing power of people not really

427
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 3: significantly improved since since we since we untethered money from

428
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 3: from gold. An advisor to UH Paul Voker, John Exter,

429
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 3: and he referred to the new regime of the money

430
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 3: regime is I owe you nothing's and so I think

431
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,600
Speaker 3: that that I've not I've not seen a better description

432
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 3: of our current monetary regime than then then then and

433
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 3: central banks through banks issuing iou nothing's so. And that's

434
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 3: also what finances the rent extraction business, because the more

435
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 3: money you give the government, the more proactive the government

436
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 3: can be in engaging in the subsidizing of businesses, and

437
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 3: the higher return there is to lobbying, you know, and

438
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 3: the more profitable it is to organize people to be

439
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 3: in the business of rent extraction, you know, rather than

440
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 3: you know, rather than productivity and creation. So there's a

441
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 3: high return to extracting rent from Congress, and for many

442
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: businesses they find that's the best investment. The highest return

443
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,439
Speaker 3: on investment is not going out hiring a bunch of

444
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 3: really smart people and thinking about how you can innovate,

445
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 3: is hiring a bunch of former politicians and other cronies

446
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 3: and figuring out how you can how you can you know,

447
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 3: manipulate the rules to be in your favor. And so

448
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 3: we if we've looked since we've since we've in in

449
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 3: this rent extraction money debasement period, you know, we see

450
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 3: that we've had very low productivity growth. Some economists call

451
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 3: it a productivity conundrum. Yeah, I don't think it's much

452
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 3: of a conundrum. I think I think we went from

453
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 3: a reasonable level of free market capitalism into into into

454
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: rejecting capitalism and embracing cronyism. And why should we why

455
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 3: should we expect cronyism would produce the same returns on

456
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 3: individual initiatives as capitalism.

457
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah, I I I went and took almost a

458
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: month and traveled Europe with my with my family this

459
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 1: summer about a month ago, went through Italy and and

460
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: and Greece, and in Italy, you know, seeing what was built,

461
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: you know, thousands of years ago in Rome. And then

462
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 1: we spent quite a bit of time in Florence, which

463
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: is kind of the birthplace of the modern monetary system.

464
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: And you know, it also had the Florin coin, which

465
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: was the longest lasting gold coin in the world, almost

466
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: four hundred years without debasement. And that's what really kicked

467
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: off the the Renaissance, right, going from the Dark Ages

468
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: to the Renaissance. So having a coin that wasn't debased

469
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: to the point that you're saying, and was globally recognized

470
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 1: led to massive flourishment of the entire world. And when

471
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: I look, when I look at the buildings in Florence,

472
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: you can just see like they're so ornate and the

473
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: materials that they use and the size that they use

474
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 1: and all these things. And I just thought, like what

475
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: put Florence on the map at that time was just textiles?

476
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 1: Like nothing, nothing big in fans are you?

477
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: Just textiles?

478
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: But how could they spend that much money and detail

479
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: and time and effort on these buildings. And it's like, well,

480
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 1: they had a sound money system, right, and like today

481
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: we build a bunch of boxes like here, like in

482
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: California as like stand up just pop ups, just boxes,

483
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: boom boom boom, you know. And like that's the difference

484
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: of that fiat money system being debased you mentioned earlier,

485
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: like uh, you know, separating money in state, right, that's

486
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: sort of what the FED tried to do. You sort

487
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: of have this semi quasi independent agency that controls money,

488
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: not the government. Sort of tried to do that, but

489
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: of course they're debasing the money on their own. You

490
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: think that was like that was a sort of a

491
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 1: ploy to get people off the backs of the government

492
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: printing money.

493
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,360
Speaker 3: I think, I think, I think unfortunately what had happened,

494
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 3: uh was and uh, you know, and I'm somebody who

495
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 3: went to University of Chicago, and and and and and

496
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 3: got to know Milton Friedman, and and and and Frederick

497
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 3: Kyak Uh that Uh. I think it was the the

498
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 3: bifurcation between the opinion of people like the monitorists uh

499
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: and uh and and and and people like Kyak who

500
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 3: wrote a book called, you know, the the Nationalization of Money.

501
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 3: So uh, you know Freedman. Friedman had initially hoped that

502
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 3: an independent fed would preserve the purchasing paaner of money

503
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 3: that clearly did not happen, uh and and and later

504
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 3: in his life, you know, Freedman had speculated about there

505
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 3: just being a computer with an algorithm that would determine,

506
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 3: you know, an automatic level of money beingted so so

507
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 3: that there would be no human intervention or discretion, you know,

508
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 3: in the process. So, I mean, that's that's a that's

509
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 3: not a that's not a horrible description of bitcoin.

510
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: So and and f A Hyek f a Hyak famously

511
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: sort of Foretoad foretold about bitcoin in the in the

512
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: eighties as well with his you know, no no sound money,

513
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 1: Intel's taken out of the hands of the government. If

514
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: you're just tuning in you're listening to the Mark Mas Show,

515
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: I'm joined by Jeffrey Warnick. We're talking about censorship, we're

516
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: talking about the loss of trust, and we're talking about

517
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: how that decays of society through money. I gotta take

518
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: a very quick break, but we're going to be right

519
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: back to talk more about what are the solutions for this.

520
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: So don't go away. We'll be right back with more

521
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: a second. All right, welcome back. If you just tune in,

522
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: you're listening to the Mark Mas Show. I'm sitting down

523
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: with Jeffrey Wernick, and we're talking about the loss of

524
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: trust in our trusted third parties, the breakdown in the

525
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: money system, and all the problems of censorship and and

526
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: and so forth to that that leads to now only

527
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: we talked about Freedman and Hyak almost kind of foretelling

528
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: what it might, you know, what we might need in

529
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: order to solve this problem, which is Hyak said, taking

530
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: the thing out of the hands of the government. Freedman says,

531
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: you know, the same thing, taking away from men and

532
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: kind of created some sort of algorithm or something like that.

533
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 1: But we also have that that problem with trust, right

534
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: you talked about like the need for like a trust revolution,

535
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: so a way to facilitate greater transparency and accountability, ability

536
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: and all that. So what's this trust revolution that you

537
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 1: see that we kind of need?

538
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 3: Well, I see, I see really, you know, my vision

539
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 3: of like the future of how we organize economic activity

540
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 3: is is you know, many people think it might be

541
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 3: as simplistic and stupid, but uh, you know, one of

542
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 3: the major areas in finance that has that has not

543
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 3: been adequately solved is the principal agents problem.

544
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 2: Uh.

545
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: So I think I think there's a there's a pretty

546
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: easy solution to the to the principal agent problem that

547
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 3: ties into how also, you know, we reinforce trust in

548
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: a society. So I view I view bitcoin as base money.

549
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 3: So bitcoin has the best attributes for being for being

550
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 3: based money. It has it's it's immutable, it's censorship resistant.

551
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: Uh.

552
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 3: It works like cash in the sense that pseudonymous, you

553
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 3: know that people don't have to necessarily learn a lot

554
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 3: more about each other. They just have to make sure

555
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: that that the exchange that everybody's getting and receiving what

556
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 3: they what they agree to gain and receive. And it's permissionless, permissionless.

557
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 3: So so this is this this this, this is this

558
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 3: is the world. Our founders have created. These are our

559
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 3: inalienable rights. Okay, I don't see how anybody can really

560
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 3: not think that they're they're unanalur rights. So now the

561
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 3: second thing tied to now bitcoin is now how we

562
00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 3: organize economic activity? Ronald Cose another person I got to

563
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 3: know at University of Chicago. You know, he asked the

564
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 3: question why do firms exist?

565
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: You know?

566
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 3: And I would go around as a student. I would

567
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 3: ask people like Martin Miller and Gene Fama and Friedman

568
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 3: and Stigler and and Becker. You know, can you give

569
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 3: me what your explanation on why firms exist? You know?

570
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 3: Firms exist because the SEC requires people to organize economic

571
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 3: activity through a firm, because if you go raise money,

572
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 3: you have to have an entity. You have to have

573
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 3: somebody that has some liability. You have to have somebody

574
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 3: that then goes and raises money through some other quote

575
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 3: trusted third party at Wall Street firm. We don't need

576
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 3: to do any of this stuff. We could tokenize all businesses.

577
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 3: And let me give you an example. I spoke to

578
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: somebody I knew who was a director who came to

579
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 3: me for a producer of movies, and he came to

580
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: me for money for movies. So I said, look, I

581
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 3: don't understand why you need to raise money. Okay, let

582
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: me give you an alternative way of how you can

583
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 3: go about doing your project without raising money. You need

584
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,600
Speaker 3: people to contribute human capital, Okay, So to issue a

585
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 3: whole bunch of tokens to everybody. You know, not everybody

586
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 3: gets the same amount, but you determine what people So

587
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 3: if people really believe in your project okay, really think

588
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 3: it's going to be an economic success, the token represents

589
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 3: a claim against the success of that project.

590
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 2: Okay.

591
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 3: So now everybody is an owner. Okay, So we create

592
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 3: a real ownership society that people are allocating their human

593
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 3: capital to activities on the margin that they believe is

594
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 3: the most productive use of their human capital. It's not

595
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 3: like I get a paycheck and I get a fixed income,

596
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 3: so I don't care whether the activity is productive or

597
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 3: non productive. The incentive now is for me to only

598
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 3: engage in activities that are productive. And given the fact

599
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 3: that I'm an owner, I'm going to want to make

600
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: sure that the rules of the of this thing. That

601
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: I'm part owner of this project, you know, that rules

602
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 3: are established that are completely transparent, and to make sure

603
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,479
Speaker 3: that my claim is respected, how to pursue to everyone

604
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: else's claim? So now to the extent then you ask

605
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 3: the question is, well, some people need need to their

606
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 3: paycheck to live authors. But if I have a token.

607
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 3: Let's say I'm working on, you know, the Mission Impossible movie, okay,

608
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 3: and I have a job and I'm getting tokens, All

609
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,719
Speaker 3: you need to do is list all these tokens on exchanges,

610
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 3: you know, and then to the extent that I need

611
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 3: to pay my rent or pay my mortgage or go

612
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 3: on a vacation, you know, then I can tell people, gee,

613
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 3: you know I'm on this. You know, do you want

614
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 3: a piece of the Mission Impossible movie? Do you want

615
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: to be a token holder and have a claim, and

616
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 3: do you want to bet on the success of the

617
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 3: Mission Impossibly? He'll monetize my token. I bet a lot

618
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 3: of people for successful projects. How many think about how

619
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 3: think about how much that would democratize finance if now

620
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: everybody was compensated in tokens, and every token that people

621
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,239
Speaker 3: earned gave every if they needed to monetize it, they

622
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 3: can monetize it an exchange to anyone who didn't want

623
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 3: who wanted to be a passive investor in that project,

624
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 3: and now every other every economic activity that occurred, people

625
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 3: can People can participate in every single economic activity, and

626
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 3: all economic activity constantly has a market price that everybody

627
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 3: can observe that market price. So we now have solved

628
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 3: the principal agent problem. We've now provided a facility for

629
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,239
Speaker 3: people who are in bad projects that they're now going

630
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 3: to learn quickly the project is bad, so they can

631
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 3: then say, I'm going to not no longer allocate my

632
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 3: human capital for this project because it's allowsy project and

633
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 3: I'm gonna get no return from it, so I'm not

634
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,479
Speaker 3: going to allocate my human capital somewhere else that might

635
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 3: be more productive. So on a real time basis, everything

636
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 3: is being constantly repriced and the allocation of capital, including

637
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: our own personal capital and tangible capital. You know, we're

638
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 3: constantly pricing at market prices in the place where we'll

639
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 3: get the greatest value, where we think we'll get the

640
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: greatest return from. And while there might be disagreement on

641
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 3: the best strategy inside a firm, there won't be any

642
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: conflict of interest because everybody's interest is aligned. Because the

643
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 3: class of tokens they have a passue, so the sec

644
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 3: gets in the way of that.

645
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 4: Sort of sec, we can create a we can create

646
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 4: a completely take think about like even Uber. Okay, you know,

647
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 4: the Uber drivers who helped make Uber come from you know,

648
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 4: a very small project to you know, a multi billion

649
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 4: dollar project, they got poorer okay, as Uber grew, so

650
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 4: they could they were the ones the initially contributing their

651
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 4: proof of work. They were busy driving cars, getting good ratings,

652
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 4: keeping their car cleans and along the way, you know,

653
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 4: the amount of income they got.

654
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 3: And why does this happen? Because while Uber was growing

655
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 3: in value, it wasn't generating cash flow. So the owners

656
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: of the cash flow, they don't want to be diluted.

657
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 3: So if if the initial Uber drivers would issue tokens,

658
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 3: you know, then they could have shared significantly in the upside.

659
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 3: And if they needed somebody to live off of, you know,

660
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 3: they could have monetized their tokens. And I bet you

661
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 3: a lot of Uber passengers would have liked to have

662
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 3: had Uber tokens. So is there so as they're using

663
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 3: a platform they could be part owner of the platform

664
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,439
Speaker 3: that they find a lot of utility and over who

665
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 3: prevented this from happening? The sec? Is there a good

666
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 3: reason for it. No, it's just just to promote cronyism

667
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,399
Speaker 3: and control over the over the economy. So I think

668
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 3: the I think these are easy problems to solve. You know,

669
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: if if if if if, if people can really understand

670
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 3: the framework of what what our nation was founded upon,

671
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 3: which was decentralization, you know, and and that and that

672
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 3: and that and that. People have to figure out how

673
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 3: to how to how to create a reputation of trust

674
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 3: on their own with interacting with peers. So you know,

675
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 3: an example example I give, you know, and some of

676
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 3: the toss I give is like thinking about when you play, uh,

677
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 3: you know, I would ask my friends in school, you

678
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 3: know you played. I played on the basketball team. I

679
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 3: also played in the park. I said, which do you

680
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: have more fun in? Everybody said the park. I said,

681
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 3: I can tell you why the park. Let me tell

682
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 3: you how the park works. When we go on and

683
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 3: we play in the park, is there any captain of

684
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,439
Speaker 3: the team. No, there's no captain. We choose people because

685
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: we choose people we think we're going to win the

686
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 3: game with. Then when we get on the court, is

687
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 3: there is there Tell me who's the authority figure on

688
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 3: the court. We don't have a coach. We don't have

689
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 3: a referee.

690
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 2: Okay, what do we do? It's all coedor system.

691
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all says cooperation. If somebody, if somebody is

692
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 3: just a hacker, okay, nobody wants to play with them.

693
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: If somebody is a chucker, nobody wants them on the team.

694
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 3: The market works, This evolves without any controlling authority whatsoever.

695
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: Well, certainly a great rundown. I appreciate you doing that.

696
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: It's the highlight that I pull out of that is

697
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: that we have everything we need to run this system properly,

698
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: if the government would just get out of the way.

699
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: To your point, the sec in uh supposedly and trying

700
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: to protect consumers, really all they do is harm consumers.

701
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: So I'm certainly all for that. If you're just tune in,

702
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 1: you're listening to the Mark mass Show. I've been joined

703
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: with Jeffrey Wernik. We've been talking about the loss of

704
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: trust in our in our institutions and how we can

705
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: restore that. Hopefully that was typfl for you. Let's weak

706
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 1: out for today. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time,