WEBVTT - Mueller Investigation Targets Manafort (Audio) 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:04.880 Special Investigator Robert Mueller. His investigation into possible Trump campaign 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:09.200 collusion with Russia and also into possible obstruction of justice 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.360 appears to be moving quickly and aggressively. Mueller's office has 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:16.759 executed an early morning no knock search warrant at former 0:00:16.760 --> 0:00:19.439 Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort's home and appears to be 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:24.239 digging deeply into Manaforts business dealings over many years. According 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.080 to CNN, Mueller is looking at Manaforts business dealings go 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:29.840 back going back to two thousand and six. Meanwhile, The 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:32.920 Wall Street Journals reported that Mueller's office has questioned Deputy 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.440 Attorney General Rod Rosenstein about President Trump's firing of James 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.960 Comey as FBI director as the investigation heats up. Here 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:45.320 to talk with us about it are Jeff Kramer, a 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.600 managing director at the Berkeley Research Group, and Bradley Moss, 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:54.200 a partner at Mark's Aid PLC. Bradley they certainly seemed 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.880 to be focusing a lot in Robert Mueller's office on 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:00.959 Paul Manafort, the former Trump campaign manage her. What does 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.240 this tell us about what Mueller is trying to do 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:08.920 as he moved the investigation forward? Absolutely so it's always 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:11.440 been kind of understood that there were two easy pieces 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.959 of low hanging fruit for mueller investigation. One was Paul 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.000 Manafort and one was Michael Flynn. Both of them had 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:23.800 legal exposure on issues that were separate from whatever may 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:25.720 or may not have happened in terms of the campaign 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:29.080 and the alleged collusion. But it gave First Director Coma 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.400 when he was running it. Now Robert Muller as he's 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.800 running it and into apply pressure and price and trying 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:38.400 to gain some leverage on these two senior level Trump 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.200 officials who would have obviously insight into what had gone 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.720 on during the campaign. And for Paul Manafort in particular 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:49.560 between the years of alleged issues between possible money laundry 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.720 and reporting obligations with respect to him being a foreign 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.280 agent for I believe a political party in Ukraine. It 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.920 all just it was all too easy for Robert Muller 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.320 to focus on him, Michael Flynn to an extent to 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:06.480 begin their potential prosecution. Jeff they picked, according to The 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:10.480 New York Times, the investigators the FBI picked the lock 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.400 on man of fororts home to get in, which means 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.440 they got a no knock warrant. What do you need 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.200 to convince a judge to give you a subpoena for 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.160 no knock warrant? Um? Yeah, I mean it's uh, it 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.320 is an extra hurdle. You basically have to show to 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:29.120 the judge that if you didn't have the no knock warrant, 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.480 that someone might be destroying evidence. Um, you don't see 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.280 it too much. You see it a lot in uh 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.440 in certain kind of violent crime cases, gang cases here 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.240 in Chicago, organized crime cases and the like. But they 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:43.440 clearly convinced a judge that if it was just a 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:47.960 regular search warrant h that evidence might be evidence might 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:50.400 be destroyed. So yeah, they picked a lock and apparently 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:54.200 woke up his wife. So it was very unusual, uh, 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.720 Mark the Bradley rather the The Times also reported that 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.320 they have the prosecutor is told Manaford that they were 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:04.560 going to indict him. Um, why would they do something 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.560 like that? Uh? Two possibles is one. It might just 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.399 be a ploy in the sense of trying to see 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.240 if they can intimidate and possibly guarantee the extent that 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:17.960 they can use that as a means of leverage to 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.640 get him to be more cooperative and to provide more information. 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.280 Of what is arguably the more pertinent and larger target, 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.840 which is whatever did or did not happen during the campaign. 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:31.120 And the other part is it's a standard tactic that 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.600 prosecutus will often use to kind of give potential criminal 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.760 defendants more or less a preview um in order they're 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.560 trying to get them to complete guilty and avoid the 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.839 necessary expense of the whole simial trial the law. Let's 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:45.760 give them a preview of here's what we expect to 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.680 be able to indicte you for into prosecuting and convict 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:50.240 you for. And he was what other episodes is going 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:52.560 to be. It's not really given the defendense anything they 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.480 wouldn't ultimately go anyways, because it's the entitled to it 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.880 in the context of the trial. So it's either one 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:00.680 of those, we don't know enough which one it is, 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.560 or it's a combination of both. I think time will 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:06.360 talent see where exactly the Mueller was going here and 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:10.520 what he was planning to use leverage wise. With respectrum Manaphort, Jeff. 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.920 That raid came a day after Manafort was interviewed by 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:17.919 the staff members of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Could some 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:22.800 of Mueller's aggressiveness. His team's aggressiveness be the result of 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.480 the multiple investigations in the Senate in the House that 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:30.479 might hurt his investigation. I think there there could be 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:32.400 something to that. I mean, this is a little bit 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.720 unique where you have an investigation, but you have several 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.479 bodies also looking at this. I don't want to say, 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.920 you know, mudding the waters if you will um with 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.800 other witnesses. So well, I'm sure Director Mueller is somewhat 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.000 coordinating and knows what's going on with the other piece 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.719 of the investigation. It does make it a little tougher. 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:53.600 I mean, if you had your druthers, if you were 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.760 a prosecutor or an investor FBI agent, you want to 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:00.480 keep these things clean. So that does make it does 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.960 make it harder. And therefore because it as a result, uh, 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:07.440 Director Mueller I think is going very hard and no 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:10.159 nonsense approach. I mean we saw that with the team 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.760 he has constructed, which Franks is one of the better 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:17.240 prosecutorial investigative teams going on in the country right now. Well, Brad, 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.520 what look at it from the other side, If you're 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.600 on the congressional side of this, one of the one 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.680 of the committees that's investigating. You see Mueller acting very 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:30.080 aggressively here, apparently trying to move very fast. Are you 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.880 more or less inclined to want to take your time 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:35.880 and let Mueller give Mueller space or do you want 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.360 to get your stuff into the into hearings more quickly. Well, 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.839 I mean it's it's competing um institutional interests and congret 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.960 ends are in constitutional prerogatives. I mean, obviously Congress, even 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:52.200 in their most arrogant nature, wouldn't want to interfere in 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.719 getting the way of what Mr Mueller is doing. But 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.000 at the same time, they have their own prerogatives, they 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.000 have their own views on how this should be investigating, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.640 and what they in their respective authorities and rights as 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.039 the heads of different committees in the Senate and the House, 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.960 should be allowed to investigate. And we've seen there's already 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.640 a little ruined fight possibly between Mr Mueller and the 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.440 Senate Judiciary Committee over whether or not um to high 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.119 level a FBI official to be allowed to testify before 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:22.360 Senate Judiciary without the circumstances of the firing of Director Combe. 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.839 So it's this is not unheardably seen this problem in 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.200 the past. It was most notably an issue during a 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.200 Roan contra. We're talking with Bradley Moss of Mark Zad 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:33.919 and Jeff Kramer of the Berkeley Research Group about the 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.760 investigation into possible Trump campaign collision with Russia and possible 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.560 instruction of justice being conducted by Special Counsel Robert Mueller 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.960 and his team of prosecutors. The Wall Street Journal reported 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:49.400 that those investigators have spoken with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, 0:06:49.720 --> 0:06:52.240 who happens to be the official who over who appointed 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:57.520 and oversees Special Investigator Mueller because Attorney General Jeff Sessions 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:02.679 is recused from the Russia investigation. Jeff, it's a little 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:11.000 bit unusual to have investigators ask questions and you know, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:16.440 interrogate the person who oversees their office, isn't it. Yes, 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:20.480 you know, irony abounds on this one because as you say, 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.760 Uhdud roses eignd appointed Mueller and now Mueller and his 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.680 investigators are talking to him. But you'd have to, I mean, 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.920 if you're if the question is was the president's firing 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.040 of Jim Comey related all or is it a bullet 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:38.200 point in a prosecution for obstruction of justice? You have 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.000 to talk to the guy who wrote the memo upon 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:44.239 which the President said he relied. So it's a logical interview. 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.880 It's an interview that had to happen. But it's certainly 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.960 uh an odd one. Uh, certainly given the situation, Brad. 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:55.880 You spoke before about Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley saying 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:59.720 the Senate Council's preparing subpoenas for two FBI officials that 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:03.240 the d o J is preventing from being interviewed over 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:09.520 the COMI firing. How much strength do congressional subpoenas have 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.640 compared to those of Robert Mueller, let's say, and will 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:17.280 there be a fight over these subpoenas? Oh, they're there. 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.280 They go through a slightly different process that Congressional subpoenas 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.360 are different in the sense that if someone refuses to 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.120 comply with the congressional subpoena, then Congress has to actually 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:28.800 more or less go to the d o J to 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:33.240 enforce it and to seek criminal contempt um charges against 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.040 the individuals who declined it. Whereas of Robert Mueller issues 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.719 of subpoena, he is working out of the d J, 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:40.959 so he he doesn't have to go to that entire 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.800 bureaucratic process. He can more or less circumvent it. He 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.680 is the person who would see the charges. But I 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.079 think there will be a bunch way some type of 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:57.120 resolution behind the scenes, as the various inclustional UH players 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.839 kind of butt head in terms of these various UH 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.880 is the information we're going to copy fire? I think 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.960 right now just a lot of political posture. Well, Jeff, 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.120 one of the things though, I mean you mentioned irony. 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.880 It's it's a bit confusing sometimes when you have a 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.160 lot of you know, you have senated how's committees working, 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:17.240 you have the Attorney General confused recused, you have the 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.880 Deputy Attorney General appointing a special prosecutor. They're all racing 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.360 against each other to some degree to get information. And 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:28.080 if in fact, you know, how is it, you know, 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:30.760 how is it that somebody like Rosenstein ends up being 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.920 a witness in this but isn't recused himself from the investigation, 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.600 and then all would happen. Yeah, he might have to be. 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:39.200 And there's a lot of ways this plays out, And 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:41.839 as you indicated, Uh, there's a lot of a lot 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.120 of cooks in this kitchen. If it does get to 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.520 the point where this is a couple of steps on 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:49.679 the line, Roseneside could be a witness and if they 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.480 think there's obstruction and legal minds different whether or not 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.200 that charge can be brought against the sitting president. But 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:57.480 let's put that to the side for a second. Um, 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.880 roses I would have to presumably recuse him self from 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:05.040 technically overseeing h. Mueller's investigation. Uh. And then we go 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.520 to the third person. Uh, and she's been in d 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.240 O J for a long period of time. But there 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:13.760 would have to be someone else appointed other than the 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.199 a G and the Deputy Attorney General. Uh. So that's 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.520 you know, they say that's a few steps down the line, um, 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.880 but you know it's not out of the realm of possibility. 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.280 If again, charges can indeed be brought by the president 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:31.160 in the first instance, Brad, this very in aggressive investigation 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:35.720 of Mueller's almost scorched earth tactics in some instances. Are 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:40.439 there any downsides to this? Well, yes and no. I 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.760 mean the concern of going this hardness fast is that 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.439 there's going to be an accusation in the post of 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:50.160 the media by certain parties that he's on a mission 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:52.880 to find and purge traps and is not a mission 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:57.280 to find someone the prosion to justify his missing. On 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.760 the other hand, the part of the reason he is 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.640 it's like you're probably going this hard, this fast, because 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.720 the longer drags out, the longer he faces the problem 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.240 that kind of stars face during the Clinton years, which 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.800 is the investors just kept going and kept going and 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.480 kept going, and it became a political of atross and 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:17.120 its own right, and it seems like he was just 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.320 gonna go forever. I don't think that's what Robert Mueller's 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:20.640 trying to do. I think He's trying to get to 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:24.040 whatever the underlying facts are, what the prosecutions need to 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:25.680 be brought to bring and that's the end of it. 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.839 He wants to end it. So, Jeff, I mean, it's 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:32.280 probably impossible to figure out a timeline, but you know, 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.439 in about forty five seconds, do does it look like 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:38.760 Mueller might be moving towards indictments based on what we're 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.360 hearing now, I think you'd have to say yes. And 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:43.360 I agree with the statement that was just has just made. 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.199 Mueller has a reputation as being no nonsense. He's going 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.679 to go forward. It's either there or it's not. And 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:50.920 I think it's not to come full circle he is 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:54.280 going to the low hanging fruit with Manafort um, and 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.760 I think those charges are probably going to be brought. 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.240 It's pretty straightforward. If he made a certain amount of 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.319 money overseas and didn't declare that, or worked with certain 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:05.679 groups and didn't declare that, that's a viable charge independent 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:07.440 of anything going on in the White House. So I 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:11.600 think we are looking at charges relatively soon against Mr Manafort. Well, 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.280 our thanks to Brad Bradley Moss at Mark's Aid PLC 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.439 and Jeff Kramer, Managing director at the Berkeley Research Group, 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.320 for being on Bloomberg Laud Day to talk about Robert 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:25.280 Mueller's investigation into possible obstruction of justice and possible Trump 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:29.640 campaign collusion and who knows what else. Uh, We're gonna 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.640 be following this story obviously, and I'm sure it's not 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:34.480 the last time in Bloomberg Law we're going to be 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:35.040 talking about it.