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Speaker 1: Your whole job is to be about like empathizing with

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Speaker 1: the human experience enough to be able to tell a

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Speaker 1: story that resonates with people. And yet like, here's a

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Speaker 1: real human being going like hey, hey, I'm over here,

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Speaker 1: call me, and no.

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Speaker 2: Dms are open.

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Speaker 3: Like.

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Speaker 4: There are no girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 4: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridge Tad and this

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Speaker 4: is there are no girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 5: I spend an inordinate.

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Speaker 4: Amount of time thinking about the Internet and how we

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Speaker 4: show up on it. Can we share parts of ourselves online?

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Speaker 3: What gets lost by now?

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Speaker 4: You know the drill that nobody's online presence tells the

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Speaker 4: full story of who they are. We're all creating a

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Speaker 4: digital highlight reel and none of it is really real.

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Speaker 4: But what about the way is the Internet itself lattens

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Speaker 4: out who we are and the full scope of our humanity.

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Speaker 4: When you're viewing them through a screen, it's easy to

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Speaker 4: see people as one dimensional caricatures, distortions of who they

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Speaker 4: really are. And if you think about your own online experience,

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Speaker 4: I'm sure you felt this.

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Speaker 5: One way or another.

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Speaker 4: Now imagine what that would be like as an exonery

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Speaker 4: exonerated for a high profile crime of which you were

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Speaker 4: falsely accused. That's Amanda Knox's reality. Amanda Knox's name is

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Speaker 4: still synonymous with a crime that she did not commit,

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Speaker 4: the murder of her roommate Meredith Kircher by Rudy Goudet

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Speaker 4: and Italy in two thousand and seven. Amanda spent almost

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Speaker 4: four years in prison before being acquitted in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 4: Since her release from prison, Amanda has worked to change

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Speaker 4: the conversation around the criminal justice system and the people

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Speaker 4: caught up in it through writing, advocacy and her podcast Labyrinths.

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Speaker 4: But in an online landscape that profits from distorting people

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Speaker 4: according to the most salacious stories attached to them. Sure

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Speaker 4: or not, Amanda can te used to be flattened into

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Speaker 4: a foxy Naxi caricature, the same caricature that led to

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Speaker 4: her being locked up for a crime that she didn't commit. Understandably,

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Speaker 4: Amanda is particular about what parts of herself she shares

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Speaker 4: with the internet. For instance, concerned her story would become

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Speaker 4: fodder for tabloids and online trolls, Amanda and her husband

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Speaker 4: Chris waited to reveal to the world they were expecting

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Speaker 4: their first child until she was already born.

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Speaker 1: Soon after I gave birth, And of course I didn't

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Speaker 1: immediately tell the world that I had given birth because

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Speaker 1: I was I didn't want to emotionally and psychologically navigate

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Speaker 1: the difficulty of tackling how the internet and how the

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Speaker 1: broader world was going to react to my daughter in

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Speaker 1: those first weeks of having given birth, like I just

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Speaker 1: needed to be chill and secret and hidden and no

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Speaker 1: one to know. But of course that means that no

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Speaker 1: one knows, and I still have to keep doing my

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Speaker 1: job and responding to the world as if I don't

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Speaker 1: have a two week old baby that's keeping me up

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Speaker 1: at night, news suckling on me constantly.

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Speaker 4: I loved how you chronicled your journey to become parents

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Speaker 4: on Instagram. Did it have the desired effect you were

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Speaker 4: looking for, Like, like revealing it in that way where

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Speaker 4: by the time you were like, oh, we're expecting your

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Speaker 4: child was actually already here. Didn't have the desired effects

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Speaker 4: of just giving you all a little more space to

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Speaker 4: not have to wonder how the internet would react to

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Speaker 4: this change in your life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then it also did a sort of I

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Speaker 1: sort of did a bait and switch kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Like I was when I was doing when I was

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Speaker 1: sort of revealing on a daily basis, like week per

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Speaker 1: week photos on my Instagram. It was sort of like

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Speaker 1: giving that sense to my followers, but also to like

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Speaker 1: the greater Internet in general, because of course, I know

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Speaker 1: the tabloids are constantly scanning my Instagram in order to

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Speaker 1: like steal, you know, photos of me and them of

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Speaker 1: context and then vilify me, like I was anticipating this

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Speaker 1: and sort of addressing directly this feeling of like anticipation

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Speaker 1: and wanting more and wanting like acknowledging that, like, as

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Speaker 1: I'm getting bigger and bigger, it's very human and natural

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Speaker 1: to be like, oh my god, the baby's next, the

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Speaker 1: baby's next.

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Speaker 2: And then my.

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Speaker 1: Goal at the very end of it was to show

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Speaker 1: one image of my child and explain why I was

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Speaker 1: not going to be sharing any other photos of her

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Speaker 1: on the Internet because of how I knew both the

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Speaker 1: Internet to be a thing that maybe you should opt

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Speaker 1: into instead of automatically put into by your parents, but

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Speaker 1: also because of how much my own social media and

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Speaker 1: Internet life has been mined for content and mind for

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Speaker 1: exploitation by tabloids, and I did not want to sort

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Speaker 1: of offer my own daughter on a platter, And so

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Speaker 1: I wanted to like give this sense of like, yes,

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Speaker 1: we're all in it together and we all are really excited.

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Speaker 2: But also, this is why I'm sort.

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Speaker 1: Of withholding something from you, And I was hoping to

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Speaker 1: like make a point by revealing my pregnancy that way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, what is it like to be Amanda

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Speaker 4: Knox on the internet?

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Speaker 5: Like, what is that experience like for you?

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Speaker 1: Well, it means that I am in You know, when

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Speaker 1: I came home from prison after I was first acquitted,

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Speaker 1: I knew that I was walking into a world where

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Speaker 1: there would be a version of me in people's minds

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Speaker 1: no matter what, Like that's just a reality. People heard

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Speaker 1: of Foxy Noxy. Now they have a very clear idea

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Speaker 1: of who I am. Except it's not who I am.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm going to be perpetual in conversation with

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Speaker 1: that like prejudice about me that as I'm walking through

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Speaker 1: the world. And it made me acutely aware of how

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Speaker 1: much my identity as it had been constructed, especially in

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Speaker 1: the digital space, was not actually a product of my

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Speaker 1: own making. And I think this honestly is very very

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Speaker 1: true of everyone. We all aren't totally the authors of

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Speaker 1: our identities, especially online. We like to think, I think

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Speaker 1: we have this like false sense of security that like, oh,

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Speaker 1: my Instagram feed is my own, and oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: when I present myself online, I'll people will understand what

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Speaker 1: I mean when I say a thing, And the reality

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Speaker 1: is that's not true, and we all are facing certain

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Speaker 1: kinds of prejudices as we encounter people, especially across the

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Speaker 1: distance of the Internet. As much as it brings us close,

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Speaker 1: it also keeps us distant from each other because we're

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Speaker 1: not physically there. And so I feel like I have

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Speaker 1: a unique perspective of like I feel like I have

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Speaker 1: because I've been such like pushed to such extremes through

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Speaker 1: the Internet that had like utterly vilified and also like

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Speaker 1: totally reached out to buy people like total random strangers

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Speaker 1: who just say, oh my gosh, I'm so inspired by

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Speaker 1: what you went through and how you've dealt with it,

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Speaker 1: like I have. I have personally felt all like and

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Speaker 1: pushed against all of the edges of the Internet and

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Speaker 1: the way that it works. So I feel like I

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Speaker 1: appreciate in a sort of fine tuned way how the

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Speaker 1: Internet works and how much of myself and therefore everyone

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Speaker 1: else is a construct of these like interplaying you know,

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Speaker 1: impulses and that sense of ownership that really, really we

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Speaker 1: have a false sense of ownership of ourselves online and

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Speaker 1: we really don't own ourselves online. Actually, there's a really

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Speaker 1: interesting did you hear about the woman who was an

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Speaker 1: artist and she had like you know, as an artist does.

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Speaker 1: She has an Instagram account. I think it was called

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Speaker 1: the metaverse. Her Instagram has gone metaverse, right, and like

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Speaker 1: Facebook decided, oh, we're the metaverse now, so we're just

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Speaker 1: gonna delete you. They have that power, and they have

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Speaker 1: that power which like again reinforces that sense of like,

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Speaker 1: well do we own ourselves on the internet?

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Speaker 4: Do we own ourselves on the internet? So w E

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Speaker 4: b du Boi has this concept of double consciousness, whereby

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Speaker 4: black folks experience consciousness in two distinct ways at once,

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Speaker 4: the way that we understand and see ourselves and the

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Speaker 4: way that we are aware of being seen by a

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Speaker 4: white supremacist society. And I've always felt this concept was

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Speaker 4: really useful, not just in navigating the IRL world, but

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Speaker 4: in navigating my own online experiences as well. When I

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Speaker 4: share myself online, I'm very aware that it's a convergence

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Speaker 4: of two consciousnesses, who I actually am and who people

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Speaker 4: are perceiving me to be. I don't even really consider

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Speaker 4: my online persona to be me. I think of her

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Speaker 4: as my avatar, a stand in for my digital experiences,

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Speaker 4: completely distinct from the real life me. I spend a

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Speaker 4: lot of time thinking about our digital experiences and the

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Speaker 4: experience of showing up online and just what that's like

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Speaker 4: for us, and I often referred to my online self

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Speaker 4: as my avatar.

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Speaker 5: You know, I don't even see her as really myself.

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Speaker 5: I see her as a.

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Speaker 4: Stand in, and so I can only imagine what that

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Speaker 4: experience is like for you, as this person who has

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Speaker 4: been vilified and really turned into a caricature. How you

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Speaker 4: might feel that there are these all these different competing

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Speaker 4: versions of yourself out in the world, but at the

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Speaker 4: same time really knowing, you know, this isn't me like

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Speaker 4: having this composite sketch version of yourself of what people

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Speaker 4: see you as, all these different projections of people's understandings

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Speaker 4: of who you are or who they want you to

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Speaker 4: be or need you to be. When I was preparing

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Speaker 4: for this interview, I was reading some headlines and there

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Speaker 4: was this one tabloid story that had clearly taken a

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Speaker 4: picture of you and your husband, maybe when you were

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Speaker 4: out at a party or something. And there are so

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Speaker 4: many pictures of you and your husband that anybody could

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Speaker 4: use to accompany a story about you, but they had

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Speaker 4: clearly gone out of their way to choose a picture

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Speaker 4: or y'all were at a party to kind of add

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Speaker 4: to this media created idea that y'all were weird. You know,

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Speaker 4: it's like they went out of their way to say,

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Speaker 4: look at these two, aren't they weird? Look at this

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Speaker 4: weird picture? But it's like they chose the picture. This

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Speaker 4: is obviously something that you wanted to use to create

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Speaker 4: to tell the story that you were trying to sell,

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Speaker 4: and that story was these two are weirdos. And for you,

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Speaker 4: it must be so difficult to retain and protect your

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Speaker 4: sense of self when there are so many forces out

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Speaker 4: there projecting all of these competing, negative, out of context

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Speaker 4: versions of who they think you are or who they

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Speaker 4: want you to be or need you to be.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah, No, it's true, especially because and I

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Speaker 1: think this is true of other people as well, Like

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Speaker 1: it's not like it just limits itself to the Internet space,

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Speaker 1: like it definitely has repercussions in my actual real life.

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Speaker 1: It makes it so that it's difficult for me to

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Speaker 1: make friends or to get a regular job. Like these

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Speaker 1: are always that the stigma of whatever that person, that

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Speaker 1: that idea of me that's in someone else's mind impacts

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Speaker 1: me on a on an actual level. Like I actually

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Speaker 1: went to prison because people were, you know, cherry picking

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Speaker 1: moments of my life and portraying them in the worst

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Speaker 1: possible light, and like I went to actual prison for that.

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Speaker 1: So like and you know, to this day, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not being put in a jail cell because of

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Speaker 1: people talking badly about me on the internet and portraying

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Speaker 1: me as a weird person. But it does mean that,

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Speaker 1: you know, if I go and take a meeting with someone,

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering, are they taking a meeting with me because

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Speaker 1: they want to see how weird I am or they

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Speaker 1: want to you know, or are they actually seriously interested

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Speaker 1: in my professional work? Do they even know about my

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Speaker 1: professional work? Because of course the tabloids are really happy

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Speaker 1: to tell stories about me going to parties, but they

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Speaker 1: don't ever talk about the work that I do because

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Speaker 1: that doesn't go with their story.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know. It's made me acutely.

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Speaker 1: Aware of how powerful storytelling is, and it's made me

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Speaker 1: think about, like, well, who is allowed to tell stories?

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Speaker 1: And what stories are they telling us? And how are

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Speaker 1: we complicit in them the choices they are making as

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Speaker 1: storytellers in selling us a product.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 4: Last year, Amanda spoke out about the film Stillwater, which

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Speaker 4: stars mac naman as a father who travels to Europe

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Speaker 4: to see his daughter who has been in prison for

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Speaker 4: the murder of her roommate and lover in France. There's

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Speaker 4: going to be a spoiler for the film in just

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Speaker 4: a moment. Director Tom McCarthy said he was quote inspired

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Speaker 4: by Amanda's experience.

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Speaker 3: I was pretty fascinated with the Amanda Knox case back

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Speaker 3: a long time ago and did a pretty deep dive

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Speaker 3: into it.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so here's the spoiler. In the film, the character

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Speaker 4: inspired by Amanda is revealed to have been withholding relevant

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Speaker 4: information about the murder that she has not shared with authorities.

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Speaker 4: That she paid the man who actually killed her roommate

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Speaker 4: and told him to get rid of her, but it

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Speaker 4: was a miscommunication. She meant to throw her out of

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Speaker 4: the apartment, not murder her. Amanda says this isn't so

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Speaker 4: much a fictionalization as it is trafficking in a specific

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Speaker 4: falsehood that still persists all these years later, that even

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Speaker 4: if she didn't actually kill Meredith Kircher, she must have

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Speaker 4: been involved in some way. On medium, in a piece

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Speaker 4: called who Owns My Name, Amanda writes, I continue to

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Speaker 4: be accused of knowing something I'm not revealing, of having

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Speaker 4: been involved, even if I didn't plunge the knife. How

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Speaker 4: McCarthy's fictionalized version of me is just the tabloid conspiracy

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Speaker 4: guiltier version of me. By fictionalizing away my innocence, my

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Speaker 4: total lack of involvement, by erasing the role of the authorities,

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Speaker 4: and my wrongful conviction, McCarthy reinforces an image of me

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Speaker 4: as a guilty and untrustworthy person, And with Matt Damon Starpower,

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Speaker 4: both are sure to profit handsomely off of this fictionalization

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Speaker 4: of the Amanda Knox saga. That is sure to be

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Speaker 4: plenty of youers wondering maybe the real life Amanda was

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Speaker 4: involved somehow. Yeah, I mean that was one of the

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Speaker 4: reasons I was so interested to talk to you today.

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Speaker 4: Your tweets about the film Still Water. You know, I

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Speaker 4: had never really thought about the idea of profit, right,

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Speaker 4: So who not just who is telling someone else's story,

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Speaker 4: but who is making money off of it? And it

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Speaker 4: seems to me that so many different Hollywood executives and actors, etc.

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Speaker 5: Etc.

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Speaker 4: Are it's okay for them to tell this like deeply

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Speaker 4: fiction realized story about that purports to be about your

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Speaker 4: life and make money from it.

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Speaker 5: And it's like everyone else, it seems like everyone.

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Speaker 4: Else is allowed to a tell your story and then

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Speaker 4: profit from it except for you.

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Speaker 5: You know, what is that like to experience?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's so surreal that most people just assume that

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Speaker 1: I am profiting off it, right, Like the number of

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Speaker 1: people who reached out to me to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: congratulations on Stillwater, so great that you're getting another project,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, Nope, nope, no one, uh no one

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Speaker 1: talked to me about that, Like I have nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with that, and no, I am in no way

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Speaker 1: benefiting from it. In fact, I am just bearing the

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Speaker 1: cost of whatever story they liked to tell about me

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Speaker 1: this time.

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Speaker 4: So, and you know, thinking about the Netflix documentary, this

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Speaker 4: is something that I thought was so interesting, where the

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Speaker 4: filmmakers reached out to you and they said, we are

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Speaker 4: not int we only want to tell this story if

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Speaker 4: you are part of that storytelling process. I can imagine

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Speaker 4: folks coming to you and saying, listen, we're going to

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Speaker 4: tell this story whether you want me to tell it

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Speaker 4: or not. So you've got to decide whether we're telling

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Speaker 4: it for you or if you're going to be a participant.

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Speaker 4: It almost kind of feels like a shakedown, you know,

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Speaker 4: when it's.

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Speaker 2: Like, oh, it totally is.

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Speaker 5: How would we get to a.

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Speaker 4: Place where like, you're not being shaken down to be

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Speaker 4: forced to participate against your will in a story that

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Speaker 4: is meant to be about you. I mean, I'm just

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Speaker 4: like I can't even imagine what that must be like

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Speaker 4: to experience and how difficult that must be to navigate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, it's not just a thing that happens

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Speaker 1: to me, like it happens to a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: a lot of like you know, exoneries, wrongfully convicted people

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Speaker 1: come out of prison and they're told if you don't

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Speaker 1: tell your story right now to us, like you're never

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Speaker 1: going to have another chance and no one's ever gonna

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Speaker 1: believe you. And of course you're walking out of prison.

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Speaker 1: You know you've been exonerated, but you're still carrying the

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Speaker 1: stigma of the accusation. You still are trying to like

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Speaker 1: figure out how to get back on your feet, and

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Speaker 1: you like to be put on the spot and asked

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Speaker 1: to process the worst experience of your life for someone

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Speaker 1: else's entertainment product is and like the I guess, like

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Speaker 1: what I was hoping to do by writing that essay

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Speaker 1: for The Atlantic, and you know, doing like the tweets

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Speaker 1: about still Water in particular, was because I wanted to

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Speaker 1: point out that this is a way that we are

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Speaker 1: treating real human beings without And I don't know if

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Speaker 1: the people who are doing it realize what the human

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Speaker 1: cost is because they're in their own little like echo chamber.

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Speaker 1: Journalists are in their echo chamber and they're thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: I have to get the scoop, and if I don't

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Speaker 1: get the scoop now, I'm going to move on to

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Speaker 1: the next story and try to get that scoop or

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Speaker 1: the you know, the the Hollywood filmmakers are thinking, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to like be inspired by something that

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Speaker 1: happened in real life, and then I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: let the writer's room do what it does, and that's

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Speaker 1: just how stories are made. And why would someone who

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Speaker 1: is my inspiration feel any kind of ownership over that?

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Speaker 2: It's my art?

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Speaker 1: And it's like, well, did you did you pause to

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Speaker 1: think how this was going to impact the human being

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Speaker 1: who is your purported source or inspiration? Like, do you

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Speaker 1: as a storyteller, as someone who is sharing information, oh,

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Speaker 1: the person who is the source of that inspiration or

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Speaker 1: your story anything? And that's a question, Like I'm asking

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Speaker 1: the question and I'm offering a new perspective, which is, well,

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Speaker 1: maybe you didn't think about this before, but here's how

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Speaker 1: it's impacted me. Here's how when you keep telling a

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Speaker 1: story over and over and over again about a girl

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Speaker 1: on girl sex crime, you are actually misrepresenting what happened

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Speaker 1: to my roommate who was raped and murdered by a

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Speaker 1: man and me who had no part in a girl

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Speaker 1: on girl sex crime. So do you understand that when

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Speaker 1: you keep telling that story over and over again, that

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Speaker 1: is what ends up being the definitive story about me,

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Speaker 1: whether you intended that or not. And do you understand

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Speaker 1: that that's also what's happening to people who are even

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Speaker 1: more disempowered than me, because I can't tell you the

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Speaker 1: number of people that I've tried to advise and who've

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Speaker 1: reached out to me saying, there's only one person who's

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Speaker 1: ever interested, like been interested in my story. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I trust them. Should I trust them?

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Speaker 1: Is this my only chance to tell my story? I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I'm ready yet, but they're telling me

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Speaker 1: that I have to do it tomorrow, and if I

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Speaker 1: don't do it, like these are all huge red flags

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Speaker 1: for me that are just showing how like other people's

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Speaker 1: lives are being taken from them in various different ways.

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Speaker 1: And the last thing I want to see for someone

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Speaker 1: who's just spent years in prison for something they didn't

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Speaker 1: do is for them to feel like, oh now my

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Speaker 1: story is being stolen again from me, but in a

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Speaker 1: whole new way.

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Speaker 4: We owe ex Hoonaes and the wrongly convicted so much better,

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Speaker 4: Like they deserve so much better than as soon as

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Speaker 4: they're out being put in these situations where they can be.

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Speaker 4: I mean, they're already so vulnerable they deserve they don't

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Speaker 4: deserve this, and I have to I mean, do you

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Speaker 4: think it's possible to have a different kind of media

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Speaker 4: landscape for exoneries where they don't feel like they have

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Speaker 4: to immediately continuously retell this traumatic thing that happened to them,

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Speaker 4: or else, you know, maybe the tabloids will make up

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Speaker 4: their own story about what happened. You know, you do

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Speaker 4: you believe in a world where a different kind of

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Speaker 4: landscape is possible for these folks.

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Speaker 1: I mean, sure, I'm trying to invent it along the way,

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Speaker 1: but I think that like the thing that I'm sort

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Speaker 1: of experimenting with with my own journalism and my own

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Speaker 1: podcast Labyrinths, is this sort of more like collaborative experience

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Speaker 1: between the storyteller and their subject, because I think that

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Speaker 1: there's been this longstanding perspective that if you are at

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Speaker 1: the center of your own story, you can't have a

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Speaker 1: storyteller's perspective of that story, Like you can't have authorship

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Speaker 1: over your own story because you're going to be biased

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Speaker 1: or you're going to misrepresent things, and you can't be objective.

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Speaker 1: But first of all, I want to point out that

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Speaker 1: the storyteller is not by definition objective. Just because they

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Speaker 1: aren't personally in the story doesn't mean that by telling

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Speaker 1: the story, they aren't putting themselves in the story, and

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Speaker 1: they aren't approaching that story from a certain perspective. And

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Speaker 1: it's also totally discrediting the idea that someone who's at

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Speaker 1: the center of their own story might have a valuable

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Speaker 1: perspective about it, like they might, having had felt this

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Speaker 1: human experience firsthand, have some interesting human things to say

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Speaker 1: that is worth being a part of the story.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm just.

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Speaker 1: Trying to like convey that, Yeah, not all of us

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Speaker 1: are professional storytellers, but professional storytellers can help people tell

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Speaker 1: their own stories. And of course everyone should be held

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Speaker 1: accountable to the truth, like as long as we're not

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Speaker 1: like making up crazy you know, conspiracy theories to account

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Speaker 1: for non evidence, Like you know, evidence still matters, and

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Speaker 1: the truth still matters. But it's okay for you to give,

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Speaker 1: like as a storyteller, to offer someone the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: voice their own experience and that's still a valuable story.

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Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, you know, we're all experts in our own experiences.

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Speaker 4: And I hate this myth of objectivity that if you're

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Speaker 4: close to a story or it's happening to you or

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Speaker 4: to your community, you couldn't possibly be objective. I feel

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Speaker 4: like it's really at least in journalism. I feel like

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Speaker 4: it's really been used to create a really like sexist, racist,

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Speaker 4: classist narrative that like, oh, yep, it is straight white

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Speaker 4: men who are objective. Everybody else is just gonna be biased.

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Speaker 4: You shouldn't even list, like they're not gonna be a

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Speaker 4: reliable source of something that happened to them or their community.

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Speaker 4: And it just really erases the fact that, like, people

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Speaker 4: know what's up with themselves. People know people are, Like

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Speaker 4: give people the space to be experts in their own experiences,

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Speaker 4: in their own.

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Speaker 1: Stories, and don't pretend that you don't have your own

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Speaker 1: baggage that you're bringing to the story by who being

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Speaker 1: whoever you are exactly you know, So just take ownership

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Speaker 1: of like be self aware, like do enough like self

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Speaker 1: auditing to be aware that maybe I might be approaching

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Speaker 1: this story or that story from a certain perspective and

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Speaker 1: let that be like acknowledge that in your own storytelling

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Speaker 1: process and as you are encountering the person, because they

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Speaker 1: might be coming from a whole completely new perspective that

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Speaker 1: you don't have access to. And if you are automatically

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Speaker 1: defining yourself as the objective party and them as the

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Speaker 1: subjective party you are automatically making, like doing a hierarchy

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Speaker 1: of whose prejudice and whose bias counts more than another's.

437
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 4: I find it interesting that your story is not often

438
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 4: framed as a story of someone who was wrongfully convicted

439
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 4: and then exonerated, right. I think there's probably so many

440
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 4: people out there who like think they know the Amanda

441
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 4: Knox story, you know, heavy scare quotes, but they probably, you.

442
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 5: Know, don't know Meredith Kercher's name.

443
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 4: They probably don't know the name of the Italian prosecutors

444
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 4: who like bungled this case. They don't know the name

445
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 4: of the actual guilty party. And it's just so interesting

446
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 4: to me how what you went through obviously like was

447
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 4: a huge part of your life, but the way that

448
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 4: that story is told often I don't know it at

449
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 4: the same time denies agency of the actual major players

450
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 4: of what happened to your roommate, while also giving you

451
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 4: this like outsized role in that story.

452
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 5: It's like, like, why aren't why aren't.

453
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,400
Speaker 4: These other hugely like huge major parties of what happened.

454
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 5: Why are they not household names?

455
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 4: Why are they not the names that are like connected

456
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 4: to what happened there?

457
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 5: Why is it just you who.

458
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 4: Like actually was kind of a like like side character and.

459
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 5: All of that.

460
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, That's one of the things that I've always like

461
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 1: pushed back against with people, is like when you when

462
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: you think Amanda Ox, the first thing that you think

463
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: of is murder, because that's you know, that's ultimately what

464
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: it comes down to, Amandon Ox, murder and my stuff, Like,

465
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: I have never witnessed a murder. I've never participated in murder.

466
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: I've never been you know, the the closest I've been

467
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: to murder is I maybe what could have been murdered

468
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 1: that night if I hadn't met raphael a five days

469
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: earlier and was spending the night.

470
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: At his house.

471
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: Like that's that's my experience of murder. And the fact

472
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 1: that that action, that horrific action, that that happened to

473
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: first of all, my friend Meredith, who is the victim,

474
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 1: and people don't remember her. The fact that that action

475
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 1: is not actually prescribed to her murderer and instead people

476
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: think of me when they think of her murder. That

477
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: just goes to show that it really does matter what

478
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 1: you call a thing. And when you call Meredith Kircher's

479
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: murder the Amanda Ox saga, you are doing a disservice

480
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: to the truth because I played no role in that.

481
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: The amandon Ox saga for me is I'm on trial

482
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: for something I didn't do, and now I'm trying to

483
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: like reclaim my life in a world that doesn't want

484
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 1: me to reclaim my life, you know.

485
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 2: Like that's my experience.

486
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 5: But like.

487
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 1: It drives me crazy that it's so so often that

488
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: the person who actually committed this crime is referred to

489
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: as an afterthought, like he's either not named at all,

490
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: he's called the other guy who was accused, you know whatever,

491
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: Like no one cares about that. And to me, that

492
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: conveys that, like people don't actually really care about what

493
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: happened to Meredith. They care about the scandal, and they

494
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: care about the sexiness that they can you know, portry,

495
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: you know, project onto, Like the sexy idea is what

496
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: resonates with people more than the actual human experience.

497
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I just it's impossible to not see all

498
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 4: the ways that you've become this character. So either it's

499
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 4: like she's weird, or she's like an American loud mouth

500
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 4: or like a temptress. It's like you kind of become

501
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 4: this thing that this character that anybody can project whatever

502
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 4: they want onto and it doesn't like who you actually

503
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 4: are as a human who went through something traumatic is

504
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:48,959
Speaker 4: just gone in a conversation.

505
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.

506
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: And and then you know, even when i'm you know,

507
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: it's found out that I'm innocent, and I'm held fully innocent.

508
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: The again that like mystique of who is Amanda Knox?

509
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: Really it's like, well, here's an idea, like I have

510
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: a podcast where I talk really openly about all my

511
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: ideas and all my experiences.

512
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: Have you considered listening to that?

513
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: No, No, of course not, because then Amanda is actually

514
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: authoring her own experience. We want to talk about her.

515
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: We don't actually want.

516
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 2: To talk to her.

517
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: And it's it's just like, I mean, you aren't obviously

518
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: you're talking to me, and I greatly appreciate that because honestly,

519
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: like what a frickin' gift in the world to just

520
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: talk to another human being, like a real person. Like

521
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: I can't tell you enough how much it means to

522
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: me that you reach out to me and say I

523
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: actually care about what your experience is. I you know,

524
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to just talk about you. I want

525
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: to talk to you like thank you for that.

526
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: It means a lot.

527
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 5: I mean, I deeply appreciate that. I really do.

528
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 4: But again, like when the Stillwater conversation was happening, I

529
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 4: think something that was so frustrating is it's not like

530
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,959
Speaker 4: you're not like you, Yeah, you have a great podcast

531
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 4: that's critically acclaimed, you have a.

532
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 5: Huge body of work.

533
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 4: The fact that they wouldn't even reach out to you,

534
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 4: like I just randomly DMD you on Twitter and you replied,

535
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 4: It's not like it was hard. I'm one person who

536
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 4: maybe a podcast out of my kitchen, right, It's not

537
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 4: like you're making it difficult to find yourself or and

538
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 4: it's not like you're not having these public conversations about

539
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 4: who you are and your story and your experience.

540
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 5: And I think it is people just don't want to

541
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 5: hear it.

542
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 4: It's more gratifying to talk about you than it is

543
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 4: to give you space to talk about your experiences. And

544
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 4: I think that's so clear. I don't think people. I

545
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 4: just think that people are just really wrapped up in

546
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 4: the story they have in their head and retelling that

547
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 4: over and over again.

548
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 5: And I really appreciate it that you pointed.

549
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 4: Out that that film they weren't just fictionalizing it. They

550
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 4: were kind of parroting the salacious, you know, girl on

551
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 4: girl sex crime like lie that was told to have

552
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 4: you locked up for so many years. And that's not apolitical,

553
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 4: that's not neutral, that's not fictionalizing something that was not

554
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 4: like it's different to I guess I feel like the

555
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 4: fact that they relied on what was the dominant narrative

556
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 4: that led to you being falsely imprisoned is so hurtful,

557
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 4: but also like deeply political and not neutral, Like that's

558
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 4: a real choice and to not even acknowledge or deal

559
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 4: with that again is a real you know, or just

560
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 4: a real choice like that did I guess I didn't

561
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 4: like how in that interview. I think it was Matt Damon.

562
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 4: He was like, oh, well, you know, we got to

563
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,719
Speaker 4: thinking like what if it was like this, and it's like, no,

564
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 4: you just parroted the incorrect lie that led to you

565
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 4: being falsely imprisoned.

566
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

567
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: No, it was just lazy storytelling on their part, like

568
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, we're inventing things, and it's like

569
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: you didn't invent shit, my friend, good job you invented

570
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: Frances opposed to Italy, Like good jobs lazy.

571
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: It's lazy. It's lazy.

572
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's too bad because like, honestly, again, my

573
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: position in all of this has been I'm really easy

574
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: to talk to and I'm actually like, I think we

575
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: could have a really worthwhile conversation here. I feel like

576
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: maybe I was overlooked, but like here's an opportunity to

577
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: not overlook me, and that's okay, Like let's talk about

578
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 1: that and nothing just crickets today, Oh yeah, nothing nothing. Yeah,

579
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: it's you know, they've moved on to the next story

580
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter that there are repercussions in my life.

581
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: So I mean, it's just insane, Like how like, how

582
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: removed do you have? Like your storyteller, your whole job

583
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: is to be about like empathizing with the human experience

584
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: enough to be able to tell a story that resonates

585
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: with people. And yet like here's a real human being

586
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: going like.

587
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 6: Hey, hey, I'm over here, call me and no, you're open,

588
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 6: DMS are open, Like I'm really nice.

589
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's it's a fascinating experience and

590
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: I feel like, again, it's it seems like it's this weird,

591
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: extreme thing because it's not every day that you know,

592
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: someone's life is turned into a Hollywood movie. But I

593
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: feel like there are versions of this that happen all

594
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,239
Speaker 1: the time to people all the time. What story is

595
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: being told about you and what circumstance by whom and

596
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: how are they not allowing you to be a part

597
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: of the conversation like that that happens all the time

598
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 1: to lots of people. And it's something that I always

599
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: have a little bit of a red flag for because

600
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: it just seems like it's it's one of it's it's gaslighting.

601
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 2: Honestly, it's when you're.

602
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: Not allowed to have a voice in the story that

603
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: defines who you are. You basically are being told by

604
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 1: the rest of the world that you don't matter, and

605
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: your perspective doesn't matter, And we're going to tell you

606
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: who you are and what you mean and why.

607
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 3: You matter.

608
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: More.

609
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 3: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

610
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 4: Who gets to have a say in their own story?

611
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 4: In a media moment where we're looking back on the

612
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: way that women from Pamela Anderson to Monica Lewinsky were

613
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 4: unfairly maligned by society, it's a question worth asking, and

614
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 4: at first reachs back to Amanda because I saw her

615
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 4: tweets about the New York Times documentary Framing Britney Spears.

616
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 4: Now she wasn't condemning the film or the filmmakers, but

617
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 4: rather posing a complex question. She tweeted, with all these

618
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 4: new Britney Spears documentaries out, I'm asking myself, did Britney

619
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 4: participate in.

620
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 3: Any of them?

621
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 4: Did she consent to them? Did she want them to exist?

622
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,720
Speaker 4: Does anyone care? The answer to the first two questions

623
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 4: is no, she did not participate.

624
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 5: Or grant her approval.

625
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 4: And while I'm sure the documentary of filmmakers would have

626
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 4: preferred that she gave them her approval, when she didn't,

627
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 4: they plowed ahead anyway. Is that okay? She goes on

628
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 4: to say, I'd like to live in a world where

629
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,959
Speaker 4: Brittany and Britney alone. Guess to decide if she wants

630
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 4: her personal legal drama to serve as your next Netflix binge.

631
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 4: When filmmakers Rod Blackhurst and Brian McGinn reached out to

632
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,479
Speaker 4: Amanda about making a Netflix documentary, they said they would

633
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 4: only go through with the film if she participated, and

634
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 4: it's a big part of why she agreed to do

635
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 4: it in the first place. They had the ethical sense

636
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 4: to understand that I would be deeply impacted by that

637
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 4: film and that my consent and participation mattered. They decided

638
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 4: it was better to make no film than one without me.

639
00:34:59,239 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 3: She tweeted.

640
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 4: When I first reached out to you, I was in

641
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 4: the process of researching an episode for the podcast about

642
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 4: the Free Britney movement, and when I saw your tweets,

643
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 4: it really so I stopped my research because one of

644
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 4: the points that you made was, you know, hey, this

645
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 4: documentary was made without Britney Spears's consent, and I really

646
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 4: had to have to really have a deep think about

647
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 4: what that meant, right Like, I was very happy that

648
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 4: Britney Spears's conservatorship was overturned. I was happy to see

649
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 4: the role that that documentary maybe played and some like

650
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 4: public awareness of it. But I never even thought to ask,

651
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 4: what does it mean that this content was just released

652
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 4: without her say, without her voice, against her will. And

653
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 4: I think we're in this moment where there are so

654
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 4: many different pieces of media asking us to look back

655
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 4: to how women were maligned, you know, And I guess

656
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 4: I wonder, like, what does it mean that so many

657
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 4: of those you know, documentary podcast what have you are

658
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 4: created about about a woman without her side of the story,

659
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 4: without her voice, and then sometimes against her will, Like

660
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 4: like what do we do with that? How do we

661
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 4: find a balance to be Like, Oh, well, maybe it's

662
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 4: good that this documentary helped her overturn her conservatorship, but

663
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 4: it's also fucked up that it happened against her will,

664
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,439
Speaker 4: Like isn't that just another way of violating someone who's

665
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 4: already been like so maligned and violated.

666
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 3: Yeah?

667
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like did Brittany ultimately want her you know, her

668
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: like family drama to be so public because like she

669
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 1: didn't get a choice in that right. Did it make

670
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: a difference in her trial? Is she grateful to all

671
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: the people who supported her? Of course? But it is

672
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: interesting to me and I and I think it is

673
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: again one of those moments where it's worth pausing and asking, like, wait,

674
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: what is her perspective in all of this, Like, since

675
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: everything is going to be impacting her the most, shouldn't

676
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: she have some kind of say? And And you know,

677
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: I'd be curious to know like how Britney feels today

678
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: about the fact that there were documentaries made without her

679
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: consent and yet they played a you know, a supportive

680
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: role towards her, Like that's an interesting, you know, mental

681
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: space to be in in terms of like over the

682
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 1: course of your own life. Again, there's it's but again

683
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: it's almost like a hint of that conservatorship, right, like,

684
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: we know what's good for you, so we're gonna do it,

685
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,959
Speaker 1: even if you don't want us to, Like, ooh, it's

686
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: just there.

687
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: It's me.

688
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 4: It's like a weird thing to have to unpack, right,

689
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 4: And I guess I I'm I want to see more

690
00:37:55,200 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 4: public like media makers wrestling with it because I feel like, yes.

691
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 5: It's a complicated square to circle, but yep.

692
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 4: I want to I want to see that you're that

693
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 4: you're aware of this, you know, aware of this dichotomy

694
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 4: is a thing that exists and the thing that we

695
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 4: should be asking questions about and pushing up against exactly.

696
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: I think that if there were that again, it's that

697
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: like self auditing, that introspection, that awareness that you could

698
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: have that your actions could have unintended consequences, and that

699
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: you are thinking about the people who like you know you. Presumably,

700
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: if you're a documentary filmmaker who's making a documentary about Brittany,

701
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: you can presumably assume that whatever it is that you

702
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: end up doing is going to impact her. So like,

703
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: maybe think about how and why and and how you

704
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: can mitigate potential harm, because that's what you don't want

705
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: to do as a as a storyteller. You don't want

706
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: to just harm other people for the sake of a story.

707
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 2: I mean, at least I would hope.

708
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 4: So yeah, And I mean I think in this moment

709
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 4: where we're really interested in like looking back at the

710
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 4: way that the way that media, our media ecosystem harmed

711
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 4: women unfairly.

712
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 5: So I full.

713
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 4: Disclosure live for a like you're wrong about style podcast

714
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 4: as like, oh, let's go back and like revisit.

715
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 5: But part of me wonders.

716
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 4: If we are so busy looking back that we're not

717
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,280
Speaker 4: seeing the ways that's happening now, Like, Okay, Britney Spears

718
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 4: was unfairly maligned, you were unfairly maligned, Jane Jackson unfairly

719
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 4: maligned all these people.

720
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 5: But are we are we Like, what's.

721
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 4: The point of that kind of content if it does

722
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 4: not prime us to see it happening before our eyes

723
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 4: in real time? Like I don't want to have to

724
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 4: wait five years down the line for the podcast that

725
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 4: tells us not that the media shouldn't be profiting off

726
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 4: of the pain and you know, shittiness to like a

727
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 4: vulnerable person. I don't want to have to wait for

728
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 4: a look back retrospective on that. What's the point of

729
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 4: this media if it doesn't allow us do this now.

730
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 2: That's a really great point.

731
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,479
Speaker 1: And I think that that is that is another way

732
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 1: that if we are going to be spending time looking back,

733
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: because I think it's a worthwhile thing to do, let's

734
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: not do it just for a sake of like nostalgia.

735
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: We can all feel good about ourselves today because we're

736
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,919
Speaker 1: not doing that like they did in the nineties. Like that,

737
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: there's the danger of it approximating that where it's like,

738
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: oh man, we were terrible to women in the nineties.

739
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 1: We can feel totally. We can pat ourselves on the

740
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 1: back today. There is nothing wrong with the way that

741
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: we're treating women today because look at what we did

742
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: in the nineties. Like it's important to take stock of

743
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 1: how things were, how things have changed, but also how

744
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: things haven't changed, and if we can see echoes of

745
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: what happened in the past happening today and try to

746
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 1: be better.

747
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 4: Definitely, I mean This brings me to one of my

748
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,880
Speaker 4: last questions, you know, what kind of world, Like, just

749
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 4: given what we know about how the media and the

750
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 4: internet can treat women, what kind of world do you

751
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 4: want for your daughter to grow up in? And like,

752
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 4: what will you tell her about your life? And what

753
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 4: will you tell her about the kinds of the kinds

754
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 4: of experience is that she can expect.

755
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 5: From the world.

756
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, what I'm hoping that we're heading towards is

757
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: a world where everyone is more media literate and understands

758
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: not just how the industry functions, like how how does

759
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: it even just how do you on a day to

760
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: day basis put content out into the world, Like well,

761
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: they're you know, there are incentive structures, and there's a

762
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: monetary aspect to it, and like there's a whole business

763
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: side of it that's important to know when you're consuming information.

764
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: There's a human psychological role to it, Like what stories

765
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 1: quote resonate with people and with whom? And why why

766
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: do certain stories get up lifted and others get squashed?

767
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: Why are some people's stories just you know, discarded as

768
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: if they aren't valuable and other peoples are constantly in

769
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: the headlines like these are all really important questions that

770
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: I think as consumers we should be asking, because we,

771
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: as consumers ultimately have the power to say, you know what,

772
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: I'm not going to tune into your style of content anymore.

773
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: I'm going to tune into something else that I think

774
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 1: is more responsible or ethical or truthful, and that that's worthwhile.

775
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: So I hope that that's the world that we're gearing towards,

776
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: because as social media has democratized content creation, we all

777
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: feel like we can have a hand not just in

778
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: consuming media but also in producing it. That's my hope.

779
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's actually going to happen, but

780
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that I'm going to let my daughter sort

781
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: of take the lead in how much she wants to

782
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: know and how important my experience is going to be

783
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 1: for her, because one thing that I'm worried about is

784
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: her feeling like, you know, as much as I feel

785
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: very much in the shadow of the worst experience of

786
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: my life, like, I don't want her to feel like

787
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: she's forced to live in the shadow of the worst

788
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 1: experience of my life. She should be able to have

789
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: her own life if she wants and if and I

790
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: hope to raise her as a very curious, thoughtful person,

791
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: and so I my guess is that she's going to

792
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: be curious. And of course, if she's going to be

793
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,839
Speaker 1: coming to the Innocence Network conference with me every year,

794
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: meeting other wrongfully convicted people, like, she's going to start

795
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: to notice that there's a there's an interesting pattern happening here, like, oh,

796
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: you were in jail, You.

797
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: Were in jail.

798
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: Why has everyone been in jail? Like, you know, she's

799
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: gonna know this, and she's gonna ask questions. And I

800
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: think I'm going to be honest with her one hundred

801
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: percent of the time always answer her questions. But of

802
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 1: course I'm not gonna like give a six year old

803
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 1: tutorial on crime scene footage, you know, Like so yeah,

804
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: al wait until she's seven, when we're all that's that's

805
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: the appropriate age. So yeah, I think that like I

806
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: want her to feel like she it's not a taboo subject.

807
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: It's absolutely like anything about me and my experiences on

808
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: the table for her, should she need it and want it,

809
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: but that she doesn't need to feel like it needs

810
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: to be an important part of her life because honestly,

811
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: like no one's trauma, no one should feel like they

812
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: are bound to their trauma as if it's the most

813
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 1: important thing in their life either, So I think that's

814
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,319
Speaker 1: another important thing.

815
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's such a good point.

816
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 4: There are so many interesting pieces of who you are

817
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 4: that like that's just one of a quilt of who

818
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 4: you are. And you know, thinking about your daughter, are

819
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 4: you written so beautifully about sort of long prison sentences

820
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 4: and for you how it was a kind of like

821
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 4: forced infertility. Do you see criminal justice and reproductive justice

822
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 4: as like linked in that way?

823
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I think that nobody's noticing that. I mean,

824
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: and it's and it's hard for like the it's hard

825
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 1: for men to write. Like sure, men are not limited

826
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: in that way, Like they don't have a very specific

827
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: window when they're fertile, but they do have a very

828
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: specific window when they're capable of forming the kinds of

829
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: relationships that would turn into families even and so like

830
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: for me, I think that especially with the way that

831
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: there are prison sentences in this country where they just

832
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: are nonsensically long, Like no one should be sentenced to

833
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: three hundred years in prison, Like it just doesn't make

834
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: any like just just be reasonable, like let's consider what

835
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: the sentence is going to mean for an actual human

836
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: beings life and take that into consideration when we're thinking

837
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: about sentencing. And I think that the ways that women

838
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: have sort of been pushed into a justice system that

839
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 1: was built by and for men, and their needs and

840
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 1: physical realities aren't really taken into consideration in that process

841
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:27,439
Speaker 1: is an incredible disservice to an incredible harm that we're

842
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: committing as a society. Like it matters that by sentencing

843
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: someone to such a long amount of time, you are

844
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: effectively limiting not just their freedom, but so much more

845
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: about their life that is fundamental to being a human being,

846
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: Like I never should have faced the prospect of never

847
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: getting to have a family of my own for because

848
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: I was accused of a crime I didn't commit, and

849
00:46:58,600 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: yet I did.

850
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 4: Well, Amanda, thank you for using this platform to speak

851
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 4: up for other wrongly convicted folks.

852
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 1: And even rightfully convicted folks, because like here, the other

853
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 1: reality is like a lot of the women that I

854
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: met in prison, they did commit crimes, they were also

855
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 1: victims of crime before they ever committed crimes, And how

856
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: is it that society had let them fall through the

857
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 1: cracks and had refused them good opportunities to be productive

858
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 1: people and just punished them in the process, like the

859
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: amount of like you know, I was one of the

860
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 1: most fortunate people in that circumstance, and I and I

861
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: say that as an innocent person who is wrongly accused

862
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 1: and put in prison. So like, you know, it's it matters.

863
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: We're all sort of implicated in the way that society

864
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: limits the opportunities of people, and we should be mindful

865
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: of that.

866
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 4: Oh.

867
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

868
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 4: I feel like every time you talked to women who

869
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 4: are in prison, it's it's like, oh, you were obviously

870
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 4: coerced or like you are a survivor of domestic violence

871
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 4: or trafficking like it is, and just I mean, I'm,

872
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 4: I'm this is such a along our conversation, but I'm

873
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 4: right there with you. I think like when you actually

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00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 4: look at who we are locking up sometimes for like

875
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 4: just comically long amounts of time and the circumstances they

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00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 4: came from, it's clear that we are not making our

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00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 4: community safer.

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00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 5: We are just spreading more harm. And I'm right there

879
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 5: with you.

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00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, it's it's a difficult thing to look

881
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 1: at because I think a lot of us would just

882
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: like to think, oh, well, just put the bad people

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00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: in somewhere else. We'll just take bad people and put

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00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 1: them away. And it's like, that's that's not it's not

885
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: just good people and bad people. It's not just who

886
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: gets put away versus who doesn't get put away? Is

887
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 1: not doesn't also fall neatly along those lines, like, let's

888
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 1: be real, it's way more complic than that, and oftentimes

889
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: it's actually just the most vulnerable people who end up

890
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 1: get putting away.

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00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 4: Amanda, where can folks keep up with Labyrinth and all

892
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 4: the amazing work that you are doing?

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00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for asking. You can go to Knox

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00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: Robinson dot com to follow all of the work that

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00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 1: me and my husband do. We have a Patreon so

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00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 1: Patreon dot com slash Knox Robinson. You can follow me

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00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Amanda Knox and on Instagram at Amama Knox.

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00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 4: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech? I

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00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 4: just want to say hi. You can reach us at

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00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 4: Hello at Tegodi dot com. You can also find transcripts

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00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 4: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No

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00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 4: Girls on the Internet was created by me bridget Toad.

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00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 4: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed. Creative Jonathan Stricklet

904
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 4: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

905
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 4: sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

906
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 4: bridget Toad. If you want to help us grow, rate

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Speaker 4: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

908
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 4: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 4: get your podcasts