Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to what Future.
Speaker 2: I am your host, Josh Witzapolski, and I gotta say,
Speaker 2: I gotta tell you, folks, it's the beginning of the end,
Speaker 2: or where is the end of the beginning? I think
Speaker 2: we're all grappling with the new reality that we're in,
Speaker 2: the reality of Apple's VR headset, the Vision Pro, a
Speaker 2: thirty five dollars device that looks like a pair of
Speaker 2: ski goggles and also like every other VR headset that
Speaker 2: is going to change the world or absolutely not change
Speaker 2: the world, as you may know. As you probably know,
Speaker 2: last week, we had on Mark German from Bloomberg whotually
Speaker 2: perfectly got pretty much all of these announcements reported out
Speaker 2: ahead of Apple's actual event, and we talked a lot
Speaker 2: about this thing, and I though, to be honest, I
Speaker 2: was a little bit in disbelief when we discussed it.
Speaker 2: My feeling was, this thing seemed everything I was hearing
Speaker 2: seemed so unlike the company and the way that they
Speaker 2: release things and the types of things they released, that
Speaker 2: it all just sounded like weird sort of fantasy. And yet,
Speaker 2: as we discovered on Monday, it's not fantasy. They've created
Speaker 2: this fucking face computer that I guess their idea is
Speaker 2: it's going to kind of do a little bit of everything.
Speaker 2: You can play games in it.
Speaker 1: You can.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm scrolling as i'm talking. I'm scrolling the website
Speaker 2: for this, and there's a picture of a woman sitting
Speaker 2: on a sofa who presumably appears to be talking to
Speaker 2: a man. I'm gonna say it might be her boyfriend
Speaker 2: or husband. It kind of looks like they're pretty cozy here.
Speaker 2: She's wearing this headset, she's smiling at him, She's wearing
Speaker 2: these crazy goggles, and there's the outside of the headset
Speaker 2: has a screen that shows like what appears to be
Speaker 2: your eyes inside the headset, but they're not your eyes.
Speaker 2: They're a video of your eyes that's being shot from
Speaker 2: inside of the headset. Anyhow, They're sitting on the sofa
Speaker 2: in this kind of like cozy environment, and it is
Speaker 2: like the most ridiculous, one of the stupidest looking things
Speaker 2: I've ever seen in my entire life. And I just
Speaker 2: want to say, I'm not trying to be I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to nag, you know, Apple, I'm not trying to say, like,
Speaker 2: you know, they stink and they can't do anything right,
Speaker 2: and this thing is going to be a failure. But
Speaker 2: it is such a weird and jarring concept, such a
Speaker 2: jarring vision again no pun intended for the future, that
Speaker 2: I have a lot of trouble kind of taking it seriously.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, look, and I've said this before
Speaker 2: and I will say it again. Early on, I was
Speaker 2: a huge, huge fan of where virtual reality can go
Speaker 2: and what it could be. And I have no doubt
Speaker 2: that Apple is going to move the ball forward with
Speaker 2: this thing. But the thing that they introduced feels so
Speaker 2: not right for this moment. It just sort of like
Speaker 2: baffles me. It's a baffling I feel, a totally baffling device.
Speaker 1: Anyhow.
Speaker 2: So I've been thinking about it a lot, obviously, because
Speaker 2: it's I mean, certainly, at the very least, it's the
Speaker 2: most interesting thing Apple has done in a pretty long time,
Speaker 2: good or bad. It's definitely not not ambitious, it's definitely
Speaker 2: not not fucking weird, you know, and I gotta do
Speaker 2: you gotta throw them a bone for that. I do,
Speaker 2: got a hand it to them. They have certainly released
Speaker 2: a product that you know, swinging for the fences, as
Speaker 2: they say in some in some way. But anyhow, before
Speaker 2: they release it. We you know, we had on Mark German.
Speaker 2: He talked about what was going to happen and it
Speaker 2: all came true, and I thought we have to have
Speaker 2: him come back on and just do a little like
Speaker 2: post game breakdown. And so Mark is here with us,
Speaker 2: and I just want to get into hearing his thoughts
Speaker 2: on this very strange.
Speaker 1: New reality that we're living in.
Speaker 2: All right, Look, we had to get you back on, okay,
Speaker 2: because I mean we just had this conversation like less
Speaker 2: than a week ago, right, I mean.
Speaker 1: You've got to feel pretty good. I guess you know
Speaker 1: at this point, but like.
Speaker 2: You, I mean, you literally had this entire story and
Speaker 2: end like pretty much everything we talked about on the podcast,
Speaker 2: certainly everything you wrote about over a long period of time,
Speaker 2: but particularly the last piece you did on this headset.
Speaker 2: You got everything pretty much down like exactly as it is.
Speaker 2: So first off, congratulations, that's it's a rare feed. I
Speaker 2: don't think people know how hard it is to get
Speaker 2: that kind of level of scoop out of Apple.
Speaker 3: On Apple specifically, it's challenging. I love to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's one thing I'm curious, and we can't go
Speaker 2: into the full I know you only have a short
Speaker 2: period of time, but yeah, you know, I'm sure there
Speaker 2: is a part of people at Apple that must be
Speaker 2: really mad at you because you like spoil their big surprise, right,
Speaker 2: But your writing creates an aura of you know, I'm
Speaker 2: not saying that you're doing this on purpose. I know
Speaker 2: you're just like writing shit that you get because you
Speaker 2: love tracking it down and hunting it down. But it
Speaker 2: helps to build the hype level to some degree when
Speaker 2: there's all these like exciting rumors about these crazy things
Speaker 2: they might do, Like do you have any interaction with
Speaker 2: anybody at the company? Like do you talk to the
Speaker 2: PR people there? I know it creates a lot of hype.
Speaker 3: At the same time, you know, it's not like they
Speaker 3: asked for that hype, right, They have their preferences about
Speaker 3: how you know, things would roll. Yeah, they are professionals.
Speaker 3: You know, you would expect nothing less from a company
Speaker 3: like Apple. Yeah, they have some of the best people
Speaker 3: there on the PR side and the marketing side, and
Speaker 3: they're all pros pros.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: I mean it's interesting because in my era of being
Speaker 2: very interactive and covering Apple, I mean there's Steve Jobs
Speaker 2: era into the early days of Tim and there was
Speaker 2: a very different set of PR people. It is a
Speaker 2: very different place in time, but I had I would
Speaker 2: describe them as like screaming matches with or just being
Speaker 2: screamed at by the PR people at Apple, where they
Speaker 2: were like freaking out, like because we published shots that
Speaker 2: somebody sent us off like a beta, like a Beta
Speaker 2: iOS or whatever. After they released the Death Beta, somebody
Speaker 2: sent us some shots and we published them and they
Speaker 2: were like losing their shit. But a different era. I
Speaker 2: think it's definitely a much more mature company, a completely
Speaker 2: different company. Yeah, and I know Tim Cook actually kind
Speaker 2: of did a whole house cleaning on the PR side
Speaker 2: of it. Like I think there's a whole new group
Speaker 2: of people there at this point over the last few years.
Speaker 2: But that's the least interest thing. So they've introduced this thing.
Speaker 2: It's fucking insane looking. Can we can we just talk
Speaker 2: for a second about they released the headsets Vision Pro.
Speaker 1: Is that what it's called, or just Apple Vision? What
Speaker 1: is it called? It's the Apple Vision Pro. Were you
Speaker 1: surprised about the name?
Speaker 3: The name thing was interesting, So I had heard back
Speaker 3: in early twenty twenty two that they were thinking of
Speaker 3: calling it the Apple Vision. So I wrote at the
Speaker 3: beginning in twenty twenty two that my best guess would
Speaker 3: be that it's called the Apple Vision, right, And then
Speaker 3: you were like, you just want to be sure to
Speaker 3: say you got this originally you had this, yes, And
Speaker 3: then in August of last year they trademarked Reality Pro right,
Speaker 3: and so that became the working title to me, right,
Speaker 3: and then internally they changed the name of the OS
Speaker 3: from Reality OS to XROS, and then they end up
Speaker 3: announcing it as the Vision Pro with visions right. And
Speaker 3: they didn't tell anyone working on the product that it
Speaker 3: was called Vision OS. Interesting, they had kept telling everyone
Speaker 3: working the product that it was called XROS.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: So if you watch any of the developer sessions over
Speaker 3: the course of this week related to the headset, all
Speaker 3: of the sessions are called XROS. Really, yes, all the
Speaker 3: references or XROS, all the Apple engineers call it XROS.
Speaker 1: But XROS is not a thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're eliminating that, right. But Apple Marketing didn't tell
Speaker 3: Apple Engineering that they had shifted from XROS to Vision OS, right. Well,
Speaker 3: the fact that they're marking it as the pro makes
Speaker 3: it pretty clear that there's the non pro coming to
Speaker 3: which is coming about two years from now, half years.
Speaker 1: Two years until now. This doesn't give me available until
Speaker 1: early twenty twenty four, they said, Right, they're not even
Speaker 1: selling it right anytime soon?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: And then I don't know if you saw my tweet
Speaker 3: from earlier today, but were you covering Apple and fourteen still?
Speaker 1: Definitely when they announced the Apple Watch.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Actually that was one of the one of the
Speaker 2: last ones where I did the event and review and stuff.
Speaker 1: I did it for Bloomberg.
Speaker 2: Actually I was at Bloomberg at the time, so I
Speaker 2: actually went out there from Bloomberg. But yeah, I was
Speaker 2: there in twenty fourteen. What's the deal with that?
Speaker 3: Well, when they announced the watch in twenty fourteen, that
Speaker 3: was September, they said would be launching an early twenty fifteen, right,
Speaker 3: It didn't go on sale until the end of April.
Speaker 3: And even then, ye could get one anywhere.
Speaker 1: That's it, right, I remember I.
Speaker 3: Didn't get mine until mid May, end of May, right, yep.
Speaker 3: And so they're saying early twenty twenty four. Notice they're
Speaker 3: saying early next year versus early twenty twenty four by
Speaker 3: the way.
Speaker 2: Right, stee, They they didn't say twenty twenty four early
Speaker 2: next year?
Speaker 3: Okay, interesting because early twenty twenty four sounds farther away
Speaker 3: than early next year, right.
Speaker 2: Sure, Also next year is more vague than twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty four sounds very concrete. Sure, not that there's
Speaker 2: any wiggle room there really, but yeah, I see what
Speaker 2: you're saying. So you tweeted something the day of the
Speaker 2: event that I thought was interesting, and I have been
Speaker 2: pondering it quite a bit. You tweeted, have they shown
Speaker 2: any pictures of anybody in the headset? They had a
Speaker 2: picture of Tim Cook standing next to the headset.
Speaker 3: Which is weird, right, if it's your big thing to
Speaker 3: set the standard for your career, I mean, legacy builder,
Speaker 3: you want a one wearing.
Speaker 1: They're all wearing Apple watches, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they'll hold the iPhone.
Speaker 2: Right, I think, And a lot of people and You're
Speaker 2: in the replies pointed out what I think is probably
Speaker 2: part of it. People were like, Oh, it's because they
Speaker 2: don't want memes to be made of them wearing the headset.
Speaker 2: But that in and of itself, and that's why I
Speaker 2: think it's interesting. The fact that they know that a
Speaker 2: picture of them in the headset will become some kind
Speaker 2: of joke on the internet, right to me, suggests like,
Speaker 2: and that was my point, right, Here's here's what I
Speaker 2: was most surprised about with this thing, because frankly, I
Speaker 2: wasn't ready to be surprised at all, given the fact
Speaker 2: that you had gotten the entire thing. But it looks
Speaker 2: so much like a fucking quest or, like you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, it looks like a VR headset. It
Speaker 2: doesn't look like when in my mind's eye, when I
Speaker 2: think of what Apple can do, like from a hardware perspective,
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is going to just totally upend my
Speaker 2: idea of what these things look like. But it really
Speaker 2: kind of looks like a nice a really nice quest. Well,
Speaker 2: let me tell you what surprising to me. The back portion,
Speaker 2: like the padding in the back of your head. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that looked way bigger than I expected. Yeah, and that
Speaker 2: things mass. It's clunky. It's a clunky device. I mean,
Speaker 2: I tweeted a picture of they have this woman sitting
Speaker 2: alone on a sofa with it on, and it's like
Speaker 2: a massive apparatus. Joanna Stern from The Wall Street Journal
Speaker 2: used that she wrote about it. She said it was
Speaker 2: like heavy, it was like hurt her nose. What's your
Speaker 2: impression of the reaction from people on this, like you,
Speaker 2: what have you seen out there?
Speaker 3: I don't need too much mind to a thirty minute demo.
Speaker 3: And what that means for the product long term, My
Speaker 3: personal opinion is that it's going to be incredibly slow
Speaker 3: for the first year, even the first three to five years.
Speaker 3: This is the most controlled Apple launch you'll ever see.
Speaker 3: It's available only in the US and only from direct
Speaker 3: Apple sales channels right right, And so that's a rarity.
Speaker 3: Both of those things are.
Speaker 1: That means stores though, right, just from stores.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what I mean is you're not going to be
Speaker 3: able to buy it a Best Buyer, Target or Walmart
Speaker 3: or whatever. It's going to be Apple only right in
Speaker 3: only the US, which is a rarety for them.
Speaker 2: There used to be periods where it was very hard
Speaker 2: to get Apple, certain Apple products like weren't readily available everywhere,
Speaker 2: Like this is going to be one of those products.
Speaker 3: Obviously that's the old Apple, right, and that's you know,
Speaker 3: coming back to fruition here, right, They're going to have
Speaker 3: to release an iPhone app to consumers or a feature
Speaker 3: in the Apple Store app before the headset comes out
Speaker 3: that allows you to do the whole face scanning thing
Speaker 3: that they were doing, right, because you can't do that
Speaker 3: through the web browser right order it, so you'll have
Speaker 3: to do the face scanning before you order it online. Wow,
Speaker 3: or you'll have to do it in the store. So
Speaker 3: that's going to be a really new way to buy
Speaker 3: a product. The whole prescription lenses.
Speaker 1: Thing, well, yeah, that was. You were right on that,
Speaker 1: one hundred percent right on that.
Speaker 2: It's funny because I was tweeting about it with people
Speaker 2: and they're like, that's not confirmed, and I was like, well,
Speaker 2: let's just wait a minute to it happens.
Speaker 3: Literally, Like the lens thing, Yeah, okay, how much do
Speaker 3: you think the lenses are? Someone who I spoke to
Speaker 3: today and this person has no idea, but they just
Speaker 3: threw out this random thousand dollars number for the lenses.
Speaker 2: I mean, expensive glasses can be right like in that
Speaker 2: range the actual lenses themselves, like from my glasses that
Speaker 2: are like good lenses?
Speaker 1: Is you know? I don't.
Speaker 2: I think if you have a strong prescription the price
Speaker 2: goes up a bit, but I mean a few hundred
Speaker 2: dollars probably minimum, right.
Speaker 3: Two point fifteen insurance? Right, what insurance covers?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 2: If you go to your insurance you're like, I really
Speaker 2: need to use this Apple VR headset for work or whatever.
Speaker 2: You know, maybe, but what do you how about this? Okay,
Speaker 2: so you're like, it's a long it's a slow climb.
Speaker 2: We talked about that a little bit last time. Right, Obviously,
Speaker 2: you know people who are have some real inside track
Speaker 2: at the company. Have you heard anything from internally about
Speaker 2: how the reception has been taken or how the reaction
Speaker 2: from from people has been taken. Do you know, have
Speaker 2: any sense from inside the building what they what they're feeling.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know, it's still too early at this point.
Speaker 3: From people who were there, what they told me the loudest,
Speaker 3: the loudest reaction was at the price point, rather than
Speaker 3: anything specific to the headset and such.
Speaker 2: Well, the price point's crazy. I mean they had a
Speaker 2: lot of crazy price points at the event. And what
Speaker 2: it's an M two Mac Pro like desktop grand seven
Speaker 2: thousand dollars.
Speaker 3: Either a thousand or two thousand more than the Intel version.
Speaker 3: It's really expensive, really expensive. That was crazy pricing.
Speaker 2: And but then thirty five hundred for this headset. Definitely
Speaker 2: took it out of the realm of nobody believed that.
Speaker 2: I've been telling people for months, this is going to
Speaker 2: be more expensive. They're like, no, no, no, no, no, it's just
Speaker 2: like the iPad. Ever, you thought it was a grand,
Speaker 2: but it was half the price this is going to be.
Speaker 1: It's true.
Speaker 2: I actually I thought the same thing when we were
Speaker 2: watching it. I was like, Okay, but they're going to
Speaker 2: hit us with like a fifteen hundred dollars price point
Speaker 2: or something crazy, and they will sell, and they will
Speaker 2: sell like a shitload of them right off the bat.
Speaker 3: But don't forget there's more evidence in context than I
Speaker 3: had just from people telling me it's going to be
Speaker 3: three grand plus.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: I was also told, and I've reported many times, that
Speaker 3: they're expecting high one hundred thousands to a million unit sales.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: If this thing was priced that two thousand or below,
Speaker 3: they would need more than a million units, Josh, because
Speaker 3: everyone would buy one.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, I mean a large amount of people would
Speaker 1: buy them.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: I am still stuck, And obviously we're not going to
Speaker 2: resolve this here because I know you have limited time.
Speaker 2: But I am totally blown away by the fact that,
Speaker 2: no matter what they said and did, I have a
Speaker 2: mental block when I look at the device, it is
Speaker 2: so similar to the things that have not worked. It
Speaker 2: is so similar, even the interface, Like when they showed it,
Speaker 2: you've used the quest, right, so you're familiar with the whole,
Speaker 2: the whole. They have the whole, this panel interface with
Speaker 2: these like icons and stuff. And not to say that
Speaker 2: Apple isn't going to completely knock that shit out of
Speaker 2: the water, but the consumer side of this still baffles me.
Speaker 2: The idea that like your average consumer and I know
Speaker 2: right now it's not the average consumer, but I feel
Speaker 2: like we're so far away from this becoming a really
Speaker 2: viable product, and like, yeah, I don't know. It's interesting
Speaker 2: that none of the executives put it on. I mean
Speaker 2: I find that to be I find that to be
Speaker 2: like a huge kind of tell on their part.
Speaker 1: You know, it's biz all ar.
Speaker 3: You know, for years people have been saying that the
Speaker 3: hardware of Apple products is way ahead of the software.
Speaker 3: I think this is a unique situation where the user
Speaker 3: interface interactions, the user interface design. I would rate the
Speaker 3: OS look and feel and what they're showing there as
Speaker 3: an a hardware design probably is a b right, And
Speaker 3: this is without using it and seeing it in person, it.
Speaker 2: Just feels like a million little compromises you can see.
Speaker 3: Like that's that was the idea from the beginning, because
Speaker 3: the non compromised product is not something that's feasible, right,
Speaker 3: and had to build this compromised product that they're going
Speaker 3: to bring something to market. I for one, think it's
Speaker 3: going to be hugely successful long term. You do, I
Speaker 3: do the iPhone cannibalized the iPod. Yeah, the iPad had
Speaker 3: mac cannibalization potential. I think this has iPhone ipen and
Speaker 3: mac cannibalization potential.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean that's interesting.
Speaker 2: You say that because John Gruber wrote an essay about humane.
Speaker 2: I assume you've read this right. He wrote a piece
Speaker 2: about humane and he basically was like, you know, making
Speaker 2: a replacement for something that people hate is really pretty easy,
Speaker 2: like getting them to convince them that's something you know,
Speaker 2: that they can replace the thing they hate with something better.
Speaker 2: But getting them to replace something they love is really
Speaker 2: a huge climb. And I think, like if you think
Speaker 2: about it on those terms, I thought it was a
Speaker 2: really interesting passage that is fascinating because, like I think
Speaker 2: the Humane device is a similar kind of like it's
Speaker 2: like way outside the box, right, I.
Speaker 3: Think the Humane device is way more outside the box
Speaker 3: than the Apple device.
Speaker 2: Well, right, but like if you're like, okay, the headset
Speaker 2: or an iPhone, Like there's so many trade offs with
Speaker 2: the headset, we're so far away from that being the
Speaker 2: viable alternative, and like do people are people going to
Speaker 2: fall in love with it the way they fell in
Speaker 2: love with the iPhone? It's a it's a steep climb, right.
Speaker 3: The iPhone quickly took off, and it was pretty much
Speaker 3: you would add that ideal right from the get go,
Speaker 3: maybe the second generation, right, the headset's going to take
Speaker 3: four or five generations to get to the place where
Speaker 3: I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: Well, the funny thing about the iPhone, if you think
Speaker 2: about it, is like it was a compromise device when
Speaker 2: they released it. There was a ton of compromise, right.
Speaker 2: It didn't have Remember it had edge when a lot
Speaker 2: of phones had already gone to three G. Its screen
Speaker 2: was really small by comparison to to well and really
Speaker 2: not other devices, but it was a small, pretty small.
Speaker 3: It became the iPhone screen size became way too small
Speaker 3: within three years, right.
Speaker 2: But no, that was like a big screen actually I guess, so, yeah,
Speaker 2: that's true. But there was no copy and paste, there
Speaker 2: was no apps. There was all this stuff that wasn't
Speaker 2: on that was on the cimer room floor. But it
Speaker 2: took a thing that was really not great that everybody
Speaker 2: was using and made a version of it that was
Speaker 2: so much better, such a huge leap that it was like, oh,
Speaker 2: I can never look at that other thing again, right,
Speaker 2: Like I'm never going to go back to a BlackBerry
Speaker 2: after this, right, I don't know they got there with
Speaker 2: the with the headset.
Speaker 3: The headset's not really replacing a device that everyone hates, right.
Speaker 3: I think the first point that you mentioned is right
Speaker 3: where the bar is higher, because you're trying to replace
Speaker 3: things that you already love and use every day. Whereas
Speaker 3: in terms of the iPhone cannibalizing the iPod, if you
Speaker 3: really think about it based on that context, it's even
Speaker 3: more what they were able to pull off with the
Speaker 3: iPod to the iPhone transition, because they killed something that
Speaker 3: everyone loved right hundred.
Speaker 2: Percent, but they killed it with a thing that was
Speaker 2: the same thing and had all those features right plus more.
Speaker 2: But when you were watching the presentation. Were you there
Speaker 2: or were you just watching remotely? Oh?
Speaker 3: I saw it remotely.
Speaker 2: Did not feel to you like pretty just took pretty
Speaker 2: black mirror some of the parts of the presentation.
Speaker 3: There were some demos, like the guy playing with his
Speaker 3: kids wearing it's a It seems quite ridiculous to me.
Speaker 3: And then right, they're gonna also step on their own
Speaker 3: toes in three years when they release an iPhone that
Speaker 3: can take three D pictures and you have to have
Speaker 3: that whole you know, motorcycle helmet on your head to
Speaker 3: doom Bault team.
Speaker 1: Is that a plan or they are they doing that?
Speaker 3: No, I'm just I mean, you hit thought to imagine
Speaker 3: that's something they're going to try to do if they're
Speaker 3: able to integrate a three D camera into a phone.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the thing with the kids was pretty weird,
Speaker 2: like the guy sitting on the sofa watching the picture
Speaker 2: of his kids or watching the video of his kids playing. Like,
Speaker 2: I know we all look at pictures on our phone
Speaker 2: or whatever, but there's some something real sci fi, like
Speaker 2: not in a fun way about this idea of you,
Speaker 2: like being strapped into this device watching a moving image
Speaker 2: of your family.
Speaker 3: I will say though, on a high level. They surprised
Speaker 3: me with how well they positioned it. I thought they
Speaker 3: were going to go in a totally different direction, Like
Speaker 3: what direction they did exactly what I thought they should
Speaker 3: have done, and market it as the future of the computer.
Speaker 1: Right now. You said that, you said that on the
Speaker 1: on the last show, you were like, soid.
Speaker 3: That's what people working on it it should be marketed as,
Speaker 3: and what their aim was. But it was very possible
Speaker 3: that Apple marketing would take it in a different direction and
Speaker 3: make it more of a companion device. But if they
Speaker 3: really marketed it correctly, which they did, I think it
Speaker 3: has a long term potential.
Speaker 2: I mean the pitch was sort of like, for thirty
Speaker 2: five hundred dollars, it replaces your computer.
Speaker 1: Yes, which is a great thing you're I mean it.
Speaker 2: Sort of was like, I mean, it can't replace your
Speaker 2: phone because it doesn't have a SIM, right, it's not cellular.
Speaker 3: Well, they'llood cellular, rightly.
Speaker 2: They'll make the dial have a red line on it,
Speaker 2: and then you'll know that that's a cellular headset. All right, Mark, listen,
Speaker 2: I know you need to go. You're a very busy man.
Speaker 2: You probably have thousands of people who have to congratulate you.
Speaker 2: Now you have to do a high five session at
Speaker 2: Bloomberg HQ.
Speaker 3: One last thing, I'll say.
Speaker 1: Yes, one more, one more thing, if you will actually
Speaker 1: two more things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, most absurd thing from the presentation they said two
Speaker 3: hours on the battery pack or all day battery life
Speaker 3: when you're plugged in, like come.
Speaker 1: On right all day when you're literally plugged into an
Speaker 1: outlet right right.
Speaker 3: The other thing I'll say is I still believe that
Speaker 3: it's gonna start off very slow. Yeah, but I think
Speaker 3: over time, if they can get the price point in
Speaker 3: half and they can you know, chop down the design
Speaker 3: a little bit, and they can highlight more of the
Speaker 3: ar features and they get a really solid developer response,
Speaker 3: I think long term it could be it could be
Speaker 3: a smash hip. Are you gonna buy one?
Speaker 1: Probably not, I mean honestly, I mean I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe you know.
Speaker 2: I say, it's like, here's the thing I say no
Speaker 2: to shit all the time. I'm like, I'm not getting that,
Speaker 2: and then I like go in a store and I
Speaker 2: look at it and I'm like, ah, right, fine, thirty
Speaker 2: five hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: Is a high bar.
Speaker 2: Even like I'm the like I could certainly I could
Speaker 2: afford one, but like I'm like thirty five hundred, what
Speaker 2: am I gonna do with this thing? Like again the
Speaker 2: other thing that's and this is actually a good point
Speaker 2: to we'll close on this, but it kind of speaks
Speaker 2: to what you're saying about this long term plan. One
Speaker 2: of the things Joanna said in her piece was it
Speaker 2: made her nauseous when she used it. I get very
Speaker 2: much And you talked about this on the show last
Speaker 2: time the same way, and I get very motion sick
Speaker 2: using VR stuff. I love it, like I've loved some
Speaker 2: of the Quest experiences, but I'm like, damn, I gotta
Speaker 2: take this thing off because I literally feel like I'm
Speaker 2: going to throw up if they have not come up
Speaker 2: with like a real magic bullet for fixing that for
Speaker 2: a lot of people, I think that's a huge problem.
Speaker 2: Like I know, the like being physically ill is not
Speaker 2: like a little thing, right, It's like and I.
Speaker 3: Get really ill from it. I am just thinking, you
Speaker 3: know about it Yesterday's like I might use this thing
Speaker 3: for two weeks and have to return.
Speaker 2: It, right, And I think that's an experience that's It's
Speaker 2: not Antennagate. This is way bigger it's like you made
Speaker 2: a device that is actually making people. I can see
Speaker 2: the stories now.
Speaker 3: Because it's Apple. Yes, those stories will.
Speaker 1: Happen, right, CMBC has the report people throwing up because
Speaker 1: of their Apple headsets or whatever.
Speaker 3: The difference between Antennagate and this was intenegate. Apple blamed it,
Speaker 3: said it was an industry problem when it wasn't an
Speaker 3: industry problem, right nausea.
Speaker 2: Actually, actually they could say it's an industry problem. All
Speaker 2: these other headsets have had, you know, the problems with
Speaker 2: this people get.
Speaker 3: But this time it would be true, right to tenigate,
Speaker 3: it wasn't true what they turned it into an industry
Speaker 3: problem when it wasn't right this time, you know, the
Speaker 3: nausea thing is an industry thing, and let's see what happens.
Speaker 3: But my point being is you can't really know that
Speaker 3: from an Apple Store demo before you buy it.
Speaker 2: No, if you use it for long enough, I guess
Speaker 2: if they give you a ten minute demo, though they're
Speaker 2: not gonna be able to give people ten minute demos, but.
Speaker 1: Like it's just a reality of this.
Speaker 2: If they have not gotten the latency down and the
Speaker 2: frame rate and the refresh rate of the screens up
Speaker 2: and even then, I think it's still like not a
Speaker 2: perfect solution.
Speaker 1: Right, there's still like that.
Speaker 3: Going start growing up upper ten minutes, right, it takes
Speaker 3: you a good hour, So you're really going to have
Speaker 3: to use this thing and see how it goes.
Speaker 2: I mean, everybody's different, there's different sensitivities. All I'm going
Speaker 2: to say is like, there, I have yet to see
Speaker 2: another Apple product that induces actual illness when you use it.
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of an Apple when you see
Speaker 1: the right? No, I'm kidding.
Speaker 2: Everybody just started immediately throwing up in the auditorium when
Speaker 2: they saw the price.
Speaker 3: I haven't heard of anyone personally who's used the device
Speaker 3: who has had that.
Speaker 2: Problem, right, Because there are all people at Apple, aren't
Speaker 2: they They're not going to be like, oh yeah, by
Speaker 2: the way, it was pukey and when we's jested out.
Speaker 3: I mean, I hadn't seen anyone other than Joanna say it,
Speaker 3: which is curious.
Speaker 1: So you're saying Joanna's lying fake news. No, that's not
Speaker 1: what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: White an attack on her credibility, Mark. What I'm saying.
Speaker 3: What I'm saying is is that Joanna cuts through the noise, right,
Speaker 3: And I'm saying that it's possible that the demos were
Speaker 3: so blow away that it was easy to maybe ignore
Speaker 3: for sure that issue. It was a compliment with Joanna.
Speaker 2: They didn't let that many people do hands on with it,
Speaker 2: I mean, or an eyes on or whatever the fuck
Speaker 2: we're calling it.
Speaker 3: Did demos till ten pm on Reay and really probably
Speaker 3: do the same till ten pm today and maybe throughout
Speaker 3: the week.
Speaker 2: But I mean comparatively, it's not like people could go
Speaker 2: grab it and just try it out.
Speaker 1: It's like they're doing it's all demos.
Speaker 3: Watch the Good Morning America video, the interview with Tim
Speaker 3: Cook and the interview that the anchor got. That's the
Speaker 3: same demo everyone else is getting.
Speaker 1: Oh did they show it? They have like a they
Speaker 1: actually filmed that.
Speaker 3: On the only like Good Morning America film the demo.
Speaker 3: You can see the building they built for the demos,
Speaker 3: in the room they're in. They put you on a couch.
Speaker 3: It's in a controlled environment. Yeah, and so you can
Speaker 3: see you know, you sit on a couch for thirty minutes,
Speaker 3: you do all the demos they've programmed for you, and
Speaker 3: you get to see people are people have been blown
Speaker 3: away by this thing, but again a thirty minute demo,
Speaker 3: you have to use it for a few weeks.
Speaker 2: I have no doubt it's an incredible They have some
Speaker 2: incredible features, and also you got to remember a lot
Speaker 2: of those people probably are not I mean there's probably
Speaker 2: a handful like the Good Morning America people.
Speaker 1: How much VR do you think they've done?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: I want to read the reviews when this thing ships
Speaker 3: and they can use it for several days. I want
Speaker 3: to read the reviews from the VR websites.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, are they even going to work with those websites?
Speaker 2: Do they even care about them? I'm sure they will
Speaker 2: really because I feel like historically Apple likes to bypass
Speaker 2: the geeky shit and go to like the mainstream for
Speaker 2: this device.
Speaker 3: They need that. They were all there at the conference
Speaker 3: and I thought it was the right from out certainly
Speaker 3: based on Apple's history, could have gone either way, but
Speaker 3: I think they made the right decision there. Yeah, you
Speaker 3: want that community to really talk this up because that's
Speaker 3: the community that's going to buy this thing from the
Speaker 3: get go.
Speaker 1: Right? Is this a quest killer?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Is that it?
Speaker 1: Or is it just the price points too high?
Speaker 3: The delta on the price is so large that yeah,
Speaker 3: you can't compare the two. What I will say though,
Speaker 3: is the Meta is uh one sixth of the price.
Speaker 3: I still think it's not as bad as one's sixth
Speaker 3: as the Apple thevist.
Speaker 2: I mean, E mean it doesn't it's doesn't. It's not
Speaker 2: one sixth as good or it's better.
Speaker 1: It's not as point.
Speaker 3: It's not one. Maybe it's two or three six.
Speaker 1: I mean that's pretty, that's pretty. That's pretty damning, you know.
Speaker 2: But if that's the best that we have to offer
Speaker 2: right now, I mean maybe PSVR is. I mean it's
Speaker 2: a totally different experience for a totally different purpose. But
Speaker 2: I mean Apples certainly will become the best of this category.
Speaker 1: There's no question.
Speaker 3: Yes, I saw someone tweet this morning. Is the last
Speaker 3: thing I'll say. I forgot who's who? Please forgive me
Speaker 3: for not citing them. And I have the same exact thought.
Speaker 3: Meta should license out like their metas.
Speaker 1: Do you like an Android?
Speaker 3: Yeah, they should go the Android model and they'll crush it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, honestly, what would be really interesting is
Speaker 2: to see some hardware creativity here because I think that
Speaker 2: like eventually, someone's going to crack that magic place between
Speaker 2: like it's not too big, it's not too bulky, it
Speaker 2: doesn't look too weird, and it actually is like functions.
Speaker 3: Well and watch it'll be Apple.
Speaker 2: Well it'll be Apple, you know, on a long enough
Speaker 2: timeline and they have infinite money. So that's good, like
Speaker 2: I assume it will.
Speaker 1: Mark.
Speaker 2: Thank you for coming back and talking about this again,
Speaker 2: like ingrats on the scoops. Just super fucking awesome to
Speaker 2: see it all like play out the way you wrote it.
Speaker 3: Thank you and thank your team. Thank you so much. Bye,
Speaker 3: see you.
Speaker 1: Mark.
Speaker 2: Is he's just great, is I have to say, first off,
Speaker 2: and just an incredible ability, Like it's so rare just
Speaker 2: to be able to do what he does, which is
Speaker 2: to scoop the largest most valuable company in the world
Speaker 2: on their own announcements an outrageous thing to do, and
Speaker 2: to do it consistently and to get it like almost
Speaker 2: perfectly right is fairly unusual.
Speaker 1: So we'll have him back.
Speaker 2: We're gonna have him share some more Apple secrets with
Speaker 2: us next time he gets a nasty ass scoop.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: But but you know, I do have some more thoughts
Speaker 2: about what this headset really means.
Speaker 4: I did want to bring up that picture that you
Speaker 4: posted on Twitter of like you wearing some sort of
Speaker 4: like glasses from.
Speaker 1: Like oh yeah, Google Google, that's Google Glass.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I loved that.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: By the way, for the record, I just was writing,
Speaker 2: you know, I was writing a piece for the for
Speaker 2: the fucking Verge. It wasn't like I was like, I
Speaker 2: bought these glasses and I'm wearing them.
Speaker 1: Here. I'll put it in the link.
Speaker 4: That's what it looks like.
Speaker 1: No, I know, but I know it's funny.
Speaker 2: But like, you know, that's what happens when you like
Speaker 2: review a product, is like you put them on and
Speaker 2: then somebody takes a picture of you and then you
Speaker 2: got to live with that for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: I look fucking so stupid this picture.
Speaker 2: I look like a Jewish terminator is how I describe
Speaker 2: my vibe right here. But this is actually way less
Speaker 2: dumb than the Apple thing. Like this is super dumb
Speaker 2: and embarrassing and like silly, but comparatively comparatively, think about
Speaker 2: this versus what Apple is suggesting. Okay, the Apple thing
Speaker 2: is like ten times as clunky and gigantic as this.
Speaker 2: It's not cooler. I'm not saying this is cool, although
Speaker 2: it's closer to like something you'd want, like an unobtrusive
Speaker 2: small thing that's like a part of your glasses or something.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I think there's a famous picture of Mark Zuckerberg walking
Speaker 2: down the aisle of one of his events where they
Speaker 2: gave everybody an Oculus headset a quest or whatever, and
Speaker 2: it looks like the most it's one of the most
Speaker 2: dystopian photos of all time. And I think, when when
Speaker 2: I look at this, and when I see like the
Speaker 2: pictures on Apple's website of this woman I don't know,
Speaker 2: hanging out on her sofa with her boyfriend or whatever,
Speaker 2: and she's got these massive goggles on her face, it
Speaker 2: doesn't feel like.
Speaker 1: It doesn't spark excitement or joy for me, you know,
Speaker 1: it just is like, what are we doing here, folks?
Speaker 1: What are we doing? What's happening?
Speaker 2: I think the thing that's most interesting about it, to
Speaker 2: be honest, is how much I feel like the Apple's
Speaker 2: just this whole thing just misjudges the moment of life
Speaker 2: that we're in. Just I said this on the last podcast,
Speaker 2: but it just feels like, Man, I want to breathe
Speaker 2: fucking air. I want to be I want to I
Speaker 2: want to touch grass. I want to be out on
Speaker 2: an adventure somewhere and with like people I know and love,
Speaker 2: Like I don't want to put something on my face
Speaker 2: and be transported to like a virtual fucking office, which
Speaker 2: is a lot of a lot of the a lot
Speaker 2: of the stuff they showed was actually like you can
Speaker 2: be at the office with this on and like we
Speaker 2: do some work and it's like, yeah, that doesn't seem.
Speaker 1: That great to me, you know.
Speaker 2: Or you can watch your kids, you know, playing while
Speaker 2: you're wearing this fucking thing on your face, like well,
Speaker 2: you can't even actually interact with them properly like a
Speaker 2: normal person. Not to say that holding a phone up
Speaker 2: is any better. Maybe it's not. You know, maybe this
Speaker 2: is better than holding it. It's not better than holding
Speaker 2: a phone up.
Speaker 1: It's not.
Speaker 2: People have been holding cameras up forever. It's very similar
Speaker 2: when you hold your phone up. But this is like
Speaker 2: cutting literally cutting how off you're the main one of
Speaker 2: the main ways you communicate with other people in the world.
Speaker 1: I understand.
Speaker 2: They have a digital projection of your eyes and when
Speaker 2: you do a FaceTime shat, it creates a virtual three
Speaker 2: D avatar of your face. I mean, the whole thing
Speaker 2: just is like, is this just an elaborate setup for
Speaker 2: the new season of Black Mirror? And by the way,
Speaker 2: I hate the Black Mirror shit. Like I'm not a
Speaker 2: big fan of Black Mirror because it's always like whoa
Speaker 2: technology is fucked up? Man or whatever. That's the whole
Speaker 2: premise of the show is like technology right. But I
Speaker 2: gotta say I maybe they were onto something. Maybe they're
Speaker 2: onto something. Maybe they we should heed the warnings of
Speaker 2: a British TV show, although that doesn't say on right
Speaker 2: to me at all. And maybe I just need to
Speaker 2: just jack into the matrix and call it a day.
Speaker 2: Maybe I just need to jack into the matrix and
Speaker 2: be done with it. Maybe I'm overthinking it. Maybe I'm
Speaker 2: being a negative person. Maybe I'm being a suppressive person,
Speaker 2: as they say in scientology. Maybe I'm being Maybe I'm
Speaker 2: not an ot anything, I'm an OT zero, you know.
Speaker 2: Maybe I just need to hop into this head first.
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure.
Speaker 4: Can I ask you a question?
Speaker 3: I have a question.
Speaker 1: You can ask me anything you want. I would love
Speaker 1: to hear. I would love a question.
Speaker 4: Okay, So I remember when like the I pod came
Speaker 4: out and the iPhone came out, these are all things
Speaker 4: that are so cool because I like enhanced your living experience.
Speaker 4: Right now, our options are you put on a headset
Speaker 4: and you go into a different experience where you create
Speaker 4: an avatar and go into like assumes like experience, right,
Speaker 4: so the right futures so there, Yeah, they are out
Speaker 4: of our current realities. So that to me feels like
Speaker 4: we're just out of creativity, right.
Speaker 2: I hear you're saying, we certainly are running out of ideas.
Speaker 2: Like this is a great indicator that we're at a point,
Speaker 2: we were at a value. I've actually I've talked about
Speaker 2: this many times in the past. You know, there are
Speaker 2: there are there are peaks and valleys to all of this.
Speaker 2: You know, there there there is the build up and
Speaker 2: the breakdown. And I think like if if the peak
Speaker 2: is you know, the iPhone, because it really is from
Speaker 2: a technology perspective, the peak of modern sort of technological
Speaker 2: innovations is really the iPhone and the era that it begat,
Speaker 2: which is this era of always on connectivity and social
Speaker 2: sort of inter you know, always on digital social connectivity
Speaker 2: and interaction with a device that kind of is to
Speaker 2: do everything device that's the highest pinnacle of sort of
Speaker 2: technological sort of upset that has happened in probably in
Speaker 2: my lifetime. You could say the Internet, right, but actually
Speaker 2: in some way the Internet's full the power in the
Speaker 2: power in the terror of the Internet wasn't actually fully
Speaker 2: encapsulated or realized until the Internet was like in our
Speaker 2: hands all the time and in art like was where
Speaker 2: our photos went and where we communicated, And that didn't
Speaker 2: happen until the iPhone, it really did, and everything else
Speaker 2: was like you had to sit down somewhere basically to
Speaker 2: go and off to this other place.
Speaker 1: So if that's the peak, and.
Speaker 2: All of the things that begat are the kind of
Speaker 2: like in the wake of the peak of this technological innovation,
Speaker 2: then there has to be there will be naturally be
Speaker 2: a value.
Speaker 1: You can't have. It can't.
Speaker 2: You can't keep hitting peaks over and over again with
Speaker 2: this stuff. It's just not possible. Like, you can't. You're
Speaker 2: not going to invent things that are that explosive on
Speaker 2: such a regular cadence.
Speaker 1: And if you look at the time of.
Speaker 2: Technology that's been built post iPhone, there's been this you
Speaker 2: know a huge amount of things that happened. Even like
Speaker 2: if you look at like a tesla, a huge amount
Speaker 2: of Like why Tesla was successful is because it borrowed
Speaker 2: a lot of innovations from an iPhone. Like many many
Speaker 2: things about the Tesla are a kind of reference to
Speaker 2: or a nod to how the iPhone fund Even this
Speaker 2: concept for us conceptually of like electric cars being like
Speaker 2: a big phone you charge or whatever, has been made
Speaker 2: more accessible by the existence of the iPhone. But in
Speaker 2: the grand scheme of things, the Tesla is like a
Speaker 2: car with a different engine. Right, It's not a total
Speaker 2: reinvention of travel as we know it. So there hasn't
Speaker 2: been an explose I'm just used as an example, but
Speaker 2: there has not been an explosive next moment. And again,
Speaker 2: all of the recent moments of innovation are a byproduct
Speaker 2: in some way of the iPhone. You could make an
Speaker 2: argument about sort of machine learning and AI stuff like chat,
Speaker 2: GBT and mid journey. I think it's an explosive potential.
Speaker 2: There's no iPhone of it. Yet, there isn't the iPhone thing,
Speaker 2: the killer app that makes it the kind of the
Speaker 2: delineating point between the thing before and the thing that
Speaker 2: comes after. The VR headset, the vision pro And I'm
Speaker 2: not saying this to be to downplay it or to
Speaker 2: be negative, but it is a slight tweak on what
Speaker 2: an iPhone is. The screen is in a different place,
Speaker 2: the content is in a different place. Yes, certainly, VR
Speaker 2: and AR there are different things that they allow. Yet
Speaker 2: first person games that you play on your computer they
Speaker 2: have a lot in common with what a VR game does.
Speaker 2: It's just a little bit more of like you're immersed
Speaker 2: fully visually in it versus you're only seventy percent immersed
Speaker 2: in it or whatever AR. We do on our phones
Speaker 2: all the time, so that that application of the digital
Speaker 2: overlaid on the virtual. These are fairly familiar things, right.
Speaker 2: Every time you use your camera to snap a QR
Speaker 2: code and then take you to a website, you're using
Speaker 2: AR in some way.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: If you use your one of those measurement things to
Speaker 2: measure on your phone, like, that's AR.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: If you look at like some weird three D object
Speaker 2: in your room, that's an AR. So all of this stuff,
Speaker 2: like the sensor is, the cameras, the motion tracking, the
Speaker 2: connectivity to your apps, all the surface that you see
Speaker 2: when you work in it. It is not an explosive
Speaker 2: new idea like it's always been this way and now
Speaker 2: we've upended it. It's just like a continuation of, almost
Speaker 2: an addendum to what the iPhone created. And so for me,
Speaker 2: when I look at it, it's not that I don't
Speaker 2: think it can be cool or exciting or interesting, and
Speaker 2: I'm sure there will be implications with this, but the
Speaker 2: idea that it's like the next peak technologically speaking, feels
Speaker 2: like really like a vacant thought. It feels like a fake,
Speaker 2: a phony, a put on about what real peaks look like.
Speaker 2: And I don't think we have the moment, like this
Speaker 2: is not the moment for this, Like I don't think
Speaker 2: this is the where everybody was gravitating towards it and
Speaker 2: then something just broke through that's so special and so
Speaker 2: important that we are all going to like move inside
Speaker 2: of it. So on your point about creativity, so long
Speaker 2: winded sort of explanation or exploration of the idea, I mean,
Speaker 2: I think that we seeing there's an explosion of creativity
Speaker 2: because of devices like the iPhone and the iPad. I
Speaker 2: assume things like mid Journey and some of the AI
Speaker 2: stuff's happening continue some expansion in some ways of some
Speaker 2: of that entire industry has been built around what modern
Speaker 2: technology allows us to do right. Like the podcast industry,
Speaker 2: for instance, like would not exist quite the way it
Speaker 2: does if it hadn't become so wildly accessible for someone
Speaker 2: to like create, to record, and to edit and to
Speaker 2: put a thing on the internet and then to share
Speaker 2: it with other people.
Speaker 1: There may be some new innovations to be had.
Speaker 2: There may be, you know, variations on themes like the
Speaker 2: next time a game like The Last of Us is
Speaker 2: really impactful, it might be because you're playing it in
Speaker 2: a headset like this, But I don't think it fundamentally
Speaker 2: changes where we are at creatively. But I also don't
Speaker 2: think this is like an inflection point. They make some
Speaker 2: a lot of these. It is yet to be demonstrated
Speaker 2: how this creates the inflection point that takes us somewhere
Speaker 2: really dramatically different. And until I see that, until I
Speaker 2: can really palpably see that, I'm sort of not I'm
Speaker 2: not sold. I'm sold only on the continuation of a
Speaker 2: fairly interesting peak into a fairly middling or uninteresting valley,
Speaker 2: which is where we currently sit.
Speaker 4: So Apple lost it like luster a little bit?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: No, yes, yes, but Apple's loss is luster since I
Speaker 2: mean there's no iPhone post iPhone. There's only improvements on
Speaker 2: the iPhone conceptually that and it gets better and better,
Speaker 2: and then it kind of levels off, and it's sort
Speaker 2: of like, yeah, it's pretty good, and it will be
Speaker 2: everything sort of like incremental, like better cameras, better, more storage,
Speaker 2: better battery life, like more things you can do in
Speaker 2: the software. Though the software itself is like largely unchanged
Speaker 2: in about like twelve years of its existence. You have
Speaker 2: to remember, it's only twelve years or something like that,
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, right, So it's however, many years
Speaker 2: not that many. You know, Apples had plenty of failures.
Speaker 2: Apples had plenty of products that fail, and they've had
Speaker 2: a lot in the past a few years that are
Speaker 2: just fine, that are fine whatever. It's good, you know,
Speaker 2: like the iPad's cool, like does some really interesting things.
Speaker 2: The watch is cool, doesn't really interesting things. Certainly helped
Speaker 2: to define a market and made Apple a lot of money. Again,
Speaker 2: they are just extensions of the phone. They are just
Speaker 2: simply an augmentation and a variation of the exact same thing.
Speaker 2: The surfaces are changing slightly, but the actual functionality is
Speaker 2: is just a kind of a little bit of a
Speaker 2: satellite of the of the phone. The next phone is
Speaker 2: the thing?
Speaker 1: What is that.
Speaker 2: I don't think Apple has that. I don't think Apple's
Speaker 2: done that. I think everything's very incremental right now. And
Speaker 2: so have they lost their luster? I mean, Apples had
Speaker 2: hits and they've had misses for their entire career. Steve Jobs.
Speaker 2: People talk about Steve Jobs like he was like could
Speaker 2: do no wrong. But there are plenty of things that
Speaker 2: Apple has released that Steve Jobs really loved. That was
Speaker 2: like a total whiff, you know. I mean, they collaborated
Speaker 2: with like Motorola on like an iTunes phone. It was
Speaker 2: like completely stupid, and nobody liked it and nobody cared
Speaker 2: about and it wasn't a success, But people don't remember
Speaker 2: it because it was a kind of an afterthought. Once
Speaker 2: you do an iPhone doesn't kind of matter if you've
Speaker 2: had a couple of misses before that. So you know,
Speaker 2: this could be the lead up to the next, to
Speaker 2: the to the right one, per what we've heard, per
Speaker 2: what Mark talked about. But you know, I mean it's
Speaker 2: just we're in a valley. We're in a technological valley.
Speaker 2: We're still figuring out what it is that we're supposed
Speaker 2: to be doing. With all this technology and it's put
Speaker 2: us in this like, you know, it can't be extended.
Speaker 2: It can't be boom times all the time. It can't
Speaker 2: be extended innovation, endless innovation, endless change. There has to
Speaker 2: be some period of settling, and I just think we're
Speaker 2: still in a period of settling. We're not going to
Speaker 2: be able to envision the next thing right now. And
Speaker 2: if we could do that, then we'd be you and
Speaker 2: I would be extremely rich and famous, and we're only
Speaker 2: a little bit rich and famous. So you know, you
Speaker 2: know how that goes.
Speaker 4: So you're not going to buy one this run, but
Speaker 4: would you buy like a future.
Speaker 1: No, I mean I'll probably buy one. I mean I'll
Speaker 1: probably buy.
Speaker 2: One, Okay, I mean, to be honest with you, like
Speaker 2: at some point, I'll probably just fuck it. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: buy one, you know, even just to play around with it,
Speaker 2: even just so I know. I mean, I'm kind of
Speaker 2: this is kind of a problem for me though, Like
Speaker 2: I've got one of everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say this.
Speaker 2: I think if I spend thirty five hundred dollars on
Speaker 2: it and I take it home and I use it
Speaker 2: for twenty minutes and I get nauseous. I will definitely
Speaker 2: return it, like because like, I have a bunch of
Speaker 2: VR headsets and I don't use any of them, and
Speaker 2: I've played them. I've played with them and been like, Wow,
Speaker 2: this is fucking awesome. But after an extended session, I
Speaker 2: mean like fifteen or twenty minutes, I feel physically ill
Speaker 2: and I can't keep using it because I'm going to,
Speaker 2: like I feel like I'll throw up. That's like a
Speaker 2: pretty huge barrier to using any of this stuff. So
Speaker 2: take all of the whatever's going on aside. If this
Speaker 2: makes you physically ill, it doesn't matter how cool it is.
Speaker 2: It just doesn't if you just take drama mean to
Speaker 2: use it. I don't think that's a slam dunk as
Speaker 2: a product.
Speaker 4: I wonder if there's like the ratio that like women
Speaker 4: would put up with that moore than men, just because
Speaker 4: like pregnant people are so often nachous that live through that.
Speaker 1: I mean, I ah, look, I will. I would argue that.
Speaker 2: Women have a higher tolerance for discomfort and suffering if
Speaker 2: this world has showed us shown us anything, so I
Speaker 2: wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. But nobody
Speaker 2: wants to feel nauseous. I mean if you had, if
Speaker 2: you had a choice between feeling nauseous and not, you
Speaker 2: wouldn't like willingly make yourself nauseous.
Speaker 4: Right now, I'm just giving Apple the marketing tools.
Speaker 1: That's good. It's like pregnant women, you'll understand. Yeah, ladies, ladies,
Speaker 1: it's better than being pregnant. Is that the pitch?
Speaker 4: Yeah, because it only makes you nauseous for a short
Speaker 4: time period that's supposed to extend it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: I think we got to workshop that a little bit
Speaker 2: before we take it to Tim and Co. But I
Speaker 2: like where you're headed with it. It's interesting. Here's what
Speaker 2: I've come to from a conclusion standpoint. Either I'm finally
Speaker 2: so old and out of touch that I just don't
Speaker 2: get it man, or Apple is it can only be
Speaker 2: one of those things. It can only be one. It
Speaker 2: can only be that I don't get it. My you know,
Speaker 2: ability to gauge what is and is not cool or
Speaker 2: good is somehow gone now. Or this is a bad,
Speaker 2: bad dumb idea and Apple's blowing it. I think it's
Speaker 2: the latter. I feel pretty strongly it is. That doesn't
Speaker 2: mean it can't be successful. Lots of stupid things are
Speaker 2: very successful, like Avatar for instance, but it does feel
Speaker 2: a little bit like, yeah, I don't see it. I'm
Speaker 2: going trouble seeing it. For the succession fans out here,
Speaker 2: the presentation felt a lot like a living plus kind
Speaker 2: of vibe. I'm not loving it, as they say, well,
Speaker 2: I think I can safely say that as our show
Speaker 2: for this week. We will be back next week with
Speaker 2: more what Future, and as always, I wish you and
Speaker 2: your family the very best.