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Speaker 1: Hello there, Happy Thursday. Welcome to another episode of the

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Speaker 1: Chuck Podcast. I got a loaded show for you today.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna obviously tackle the question that I've gotten a

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Speaker 1: thousand times today from various walks of life, which is

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Speaker 1: do these Epstein emails mean something more on Trump? Is

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Speaker 1: this gonna? Is this problem? We're gonna tell it. We're

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Speaker 1: going to dive into that fairly deep here in a minute,

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Speaker 1: I'll give you We're going to debate Teflon versus Velcro,

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Speaker 1: and we'll get there in a few minutes. My guest

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Speaker 1: for today is Adam Gentlsen. He is a long time

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Speaker 1: Senate a to the late Senate Majority Leader Senate Democratic

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Speaker 1: Leader Harry Reid. He started a new I guess he

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Speaker 1: calls it an action tank, but basically it's a think

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Speaker 1: tank of sorts that is called the search Light Institute,

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Speaker 1: named after the town that Harry Reid was born and

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Speaker 1: he came from search Light, Nevada. And the point is how, basically,

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Speaker 1: how to broaden the tent, How to get Democrats to

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Speaker 1: broaden to not be a stereotype of what perhaps they

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Speaker 1: are perceived to be as a brand over the last decade,

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Speaker 1: certainly in the post Obama era, how did they broaden out?

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Speaker 1: And we discuss how there was wasn't that long ago

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Speaker 1: that Democrats could elect senators, had senators from thirty six

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Speaker 1: different states at one point when they got sixty senators

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine. Right, that wasn't in the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century or the nineteenth century. That was in the

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Speaker 1: twenty first century. So it's an interesting conversation. We delve

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Speaker 1: into the whole thing of the shutdown debate. You know,

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Speaker 1: how do you confront Trump? Should they have cave, not cave?

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Speaker 1: All of those things? I think you're going to enjoy

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Speaker 1: that conversation, even if you no matter the side that

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Speaker 1: you might be on on that one. Then of course

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Speaker 1: after I'll do a little few more q and as,

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Speaker 1: and I'll have my big college football preview going into

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Speaker 1: the weekend. But I want to start, obviously with this

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Speaker 1: question and look the world of independent media, the world

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Speaker 1: of content creators. Right, we are in an Epstein frenzy,

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Speaker 1: and it's a deserved sort of feeding frenzy of the

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Speaker 1: moment because there's new material out there, right, There's new emails,

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Speaker 1: there's new shock emails, and the swearing in of Adelita Garalva,

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Speaker 1: the Arizona congresswoman who's been waiting to be sworn in

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Speaker 1: for over a month now because of the Speaker Johnson's

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Speaker 1: bizarre decision to keep the House out. I really think

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Speaker 1: he really did a disservice to his own party and

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Speaker 1: his own members here, because it's pretty indefensible, you know,

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Speaker 1: the lack of the lack of action, the lack of

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Speaker 1: anything from the House Republicans, and they're running. They're on

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Speaker 1: the ballot before anybody else, is right, it's the House

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Speaker 1: Republicans are all on the ballot come in November twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six. And I think Mike Johnson has put his

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Speaker 1: own members in a terrible situation. Obviously, he made a

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Speaker 1: it feels like he made a decision that the White

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Speaker 1: House has him to do, not what was in the

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Speaker 1: best interests of the House Republicans, and you know these

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Speaker 1: in some ways, this controversy over the Epstein file is

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Speaker 1: the same thing. Mike Johnson is consistently doing what's in

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Speaker 1: the best interest of the White House, which is a

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Speaker 1: branch of government. He does not lead, nor is he

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Speaker 1: a member of. He is actually the leader of the

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Speaker 1: legislative branch. The Speaker of the House is essentially the

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Speaker 1: de facto leader of that branch of government. The same

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Speaker 1: way John Roberts as the Chief Justice, is essentially the

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Speaker 1: current leader of the judiciary branch, and he is essentially

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Speaker 1: outsource decision making on what Congress should do to the

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Speaker 1: White House. You get it. Politically, I understand why they

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Speaker 1: feel like they have to. And we live in this

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Speaker 1: jerrymandered world where primary voters matter more than the rest

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Speaker 1: of us. That of course, you know, this gets into

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Speaker 1: the larger conversation, which, by the way, I get into

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Speaker 1: with Adam Jentlesen right the filibuster. He wrote a whole

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Speaker 1: book about the filibuster and what was the founder's intent?

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Speaker 1: And you know, how should this all work? And when

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Speaker 1: do you have supermajorities and when don't you et cetera.

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Speaker 1: But I will tell you, I think what Mike Johnson

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Speaker 1: has done with House Republicans is so damaging, and I

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Speaker 1: do not think they fully appreciate how much damage he's

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Speaker 1: His decisions here, again, all were only to the benefit

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Speaker 1: of one person, Donald Trump. None of it to the

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Speaker 1: benefit of anybody that's actually going to be on the

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Speaker 1: ballot in twenty twenty six, namely every single one of

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Speaker 1: those House Republicans that he is charged with leading. The

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Speaker 1: discharge position is here. It's interesting that the White House

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Speaker 1: apparently was working Lauren Bobert seeing if they could talk

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Speaker 1: her out of being a signer, trying to do whatever

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Speaker 1: they can to stop this. And I think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the question is will this You know, this is a

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Speaker 1: guy you know axis Hollywood didn't end him. January sixth

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Speaker 1: didn't end him. I mean, look at the things he

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Speaker 1: has done since coming into office. I mean, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to give you a quick rundown. These are just the

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Speaker 1: people he pardoned on January sixth that have committed crimes

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Speaker 1: since right and none of this has hit him yet.

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Speaker 1: Edward Kelly pardon for January sixth, later convicted to conspiring

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Speaker 1: to murder FBI agents. Daniel Charles Ball was pardoned in

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Speaker 1: the January sixth pardons, and he was rearrested on federal

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Speaker 1: gun charges. Kyle Colton was pardoned with his January sixth participation,

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Speaker 1: later had to be indicted for receiving child pornography. Christopher

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Speaker 1: moynihan was pardoned for the January sixth pardons and in

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Speaker 1: October twenty twenty five with charge of threatening to kill

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Speaker 1: the House Democratic leader Aqim Jeffreys. And then there's Robert

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Speaker 1: Packer pardon another January sixth partony in September of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five, charged in connection with a dog attack that

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Speaker 1: left four people injured. So people he's pardoned have gone

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Speaker 1: on to commit more crimes and have become menaces to society.

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Speaker 1: Never mind the other pardons he's done of some really

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Speaker 1: questionable figures, like the one where it looks like he

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Speaker 1: sold the pardon with Sheng Peng Zao, the finance founder.

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Speaker 1: That guy's in business with his sons and he magically

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Speaker 1: gets a pardon. I wonder how that worked. This guy

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Speaker 1: apparently had billions and illicit transactions, and it was Trump's

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice the first term that actually prosecuted him,

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Speaker 1: But we digress. George Santos, the serial liar who defrauded voters,

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Speaker 1: defrauded Congress, did all sorts of things. He gets pardon

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Speaker 1: ed Martin who handles his pardons. He gets pardoned. He

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Speaker 1: got convicted of financial crimes, misusing nonprofit funds, and he

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Speaker 1: gets pardoned. And of course I think works for Trump.

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Speaker 1: Denesh Desuza, who is traffics and made up Propatcanada with

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Speaker 1: his Mules movie and all this stuff, well, he was

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Speaker 1: convicted of illegal of the straw donor scheme. He received clemency.

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Speaker 1: A couple of other crypto fraud financiers that he's pardoned

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Speaker 1: ever since. So he's got and I say this, none

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Speaker 1: of this stuff has mattered, right, I throw all that

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Speaker 1: out there. All of this happened this year. He's you know,

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Speaker 1: did the bailout of Argentina instead of bailing out US

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Speaker 1: beef producers. None of this has hit him, stuck to

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Speaker 1: him yet, So why should the Epstein file stick to him. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's another way to look at this is that there

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Speaker 1: are times in any presidency where you have Teflon as

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Speaker 1: a president, and there are times in every presidency where

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Speaker 1: it feels like you're dressed in velcrow. There was you know,

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Speaker 1: Richard Nixon had teflon in his first term. By the

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Speaker 1: second term, it was all velcrow, and everything that was

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Speaker 1: connected to Watergate or loosely connected to Watergate or any

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Speaker 1: sort of presidential abuse of power seemed to stick to

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Speaker 1: him and stick to him. But why did he go

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Speaker 1: from a teflon guy to a velcrow guy? A simple reason?

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Speaker 1: The economy sucked. Why did Bill Clinton not get essentially

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Speaker 1: punished by the political system or by voters when it

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Speaker 1: came to Monica Lewinsky the economy was great. Why did

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Speaker 1: the stuff in Trump's first term not stick to him?

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Speaker 1: There was a perception that he oversaw a successful economy

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Speaker 1: pre coronavirus. Why is this possible that this time he's

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Speaker 1: in this is why could this time be different? Because

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Speaker 1: too many people in this country think this economy sucks. Because,

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Speaker 1: as we've discussed, if you have money, you're doing okay.

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Speaker 1: If you don't have money, you're struggling. You're barely out

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Speaker 1: of you're barely above water. You're seeing your electric bill

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Speaker 1: go up, You're seeing the grocery bills go up, You're

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Speaker 1: seeing everything in your life go up. In price. Trust me,

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Speaker 1: even if you have some savings, you're seeing everything go up, right,

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Speaker 1: The cost of everything has gone up and feels like

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Speaker 1: it's going up substantially, particularly when you look at electricity.

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Speaker 1: So you know, Epstein's been out there as an issue

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Speaker 1: for Trump arguably for years. The question is when does

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Speaker 1: it does a you know, why would it matter this

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Speaker 1: time more than before. You can say, well, there's more

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Speaker 1: evidence that connects them that he knew something. I definitely

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Speaker 1: think there's always going to be. But you could make

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Speaker 1: the argument you kind of new, right, like, there's this

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Speaker 1: great quote from JD. Vance that actually which was you know,

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Speaker 1: there's always a tweet, right, This is JD Vance Sarkha

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Speaker 1: two thousand and one, So you'll be forgiven. I know

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Speaker 1: that way you have to go way back in his past,

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Speaker 1: right some four whole years ago. But the quote, and

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Speaker 1: I just want to get it directly here. I had

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Speaker 1: it up. Remember this is him. He was a tweet

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Speaker 1: he made in twenty twenty one. Remember when we learned

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Speaker 1: that our wealthiest and most powerful people were connected to

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Speaker 1: a guy who ran a literal child sex trafficking ring,

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Speaker 1: and then that guy died mysteriously in jail and now

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Speaker 1: we just don't talk about it. Of course, that was

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Speaker 1: when there was a democratic administration that he did tweet this,

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Speaker 1: right number one, And that was back when the right

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Speaker 1: was convinced this was a cover up having to do

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Speaker 1: with Bill Clinton. But of course Jeffrey Epstein's closest friend

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Speaker 1: was not Bill Clinton. It was Donald Trump. And with

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Speaker 1: a the point I'm making here is do I think

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Speaker 1: Trump could Jedi mind trick his way out of this? Well,

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Speaker 1: he has for a long time. And why has he Well,

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Speaker 1: there's been other things. There's been And again I go

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Speaker 1: back to the first term, even when Jeffrey Epstein was

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Speaker 1: in custody, even when this whole thing consumed a cabinet

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Speaker 1: secretary of his who had to essentially drop because of

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Speaker 1: his lenient sentencing that he oversaw down in South Florida,

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Speaker 1: it was because the perception, well, yeah, we knew all this,

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Speaker 1: this was all baked in. We kind of knew Trump

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Speaker 1: was this. And this is why in some ways people

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Speaker 1: already know. Remember when we learned that our wealthiest and

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Speaker 1: most powerful people were connected to a guy hard stop.

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Speaker 1: So that's problem number one for Trump is that Trump

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Speaker 1: has made it clear he's been part of the establishment,

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Speaker 1: part of the elite. He knows everybody. He knows all

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Speaker 1: these guys, he's been there. He himself has quotes of him.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Jeffrey likes him young and he knows. There's

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Speaker 1: that other quote that's floating around where he said, man,

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Speaker 1: it was the nineties, a lot of crazy stuff was happening.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember, which is always code for I don't

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Speaker 1: want to talk about what I might know, or what

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Speaker 1: I might have seen, or what I might have participated in.

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Speaker 1: The Point is, it isn't going to be hard for

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Speaker 1: people to believe that he had a relationship with Epstein,

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Speaker 1: that he was close with him. The difference is they're

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Speaker 1: pissed off about he's not doing what he promised to

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Speaker 1: do as president, which is bring down the costs. They're

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Speaker 1: doing anything, But if anything, his policies have hurt you, right,

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Speaker 1: it is the price of coffee is up, not down.

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Speaker 1: Notice the Treasury Secretary says, we're going to lower the

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Speaker 1: price of coffee and we're going to lower the price

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Speaker 1: of fruit. Translation, they realize these tariffs actually impacted everyday people.

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Speaker 1: And when you teariff Brazil over a political obsession of yours,

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Speaker 1: all you do is attack all Americans in the book

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Speaker 1: because of the price of coffee. So I'm always has

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Speaker 1: it in to assume, ah, this is it. But look,

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Speaker 1: every presidency comes to an end and their influence comes

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Speaker 1: to an end. And the way we mark the end

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Speaker 1: of a presidency as we say, oh, he's becoming a

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Speaker 1: lame duck, and you're starting to hear the words lame duck.

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Speaker 1: I think when you measure when does a president become

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Speaker 1: every president becomes a lame duck. The question is win

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Speaker 1: does it begin. Well, trying to figure out when a

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Speaker 1: presidency is an official lame duck status is like trying

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Speaker 1: to guess when we're in recession. Right. There's a great

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Speaker 1: line about economists with recessions. They can always tell you

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Speaker 1: when it started. After the recession has started, there's not

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Speaker 1: a single economist that can tell you when it's going

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Speaker 1: to begin.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: They never tell you when it's going to be, and

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Speaker 1: they we always are, We're always informed of when it began.

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Speaker 1: I actually think there's the same thing with when it

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Speaker 1: comes to a lame duck presidency, is this begun? Are

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Speaker 1: we in the midst of it? Are we at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of it? We're not going to know for sure,

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Speaker 1: I think for about six months or a year. But

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you this if we fast forward a year

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Speaker 1: and the Democrats sweep the House in the Senate, which

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Speaker 1: to me, you know, and you're going to hear this

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Speaker 1: actually in the Adam Jenlsen interview, and I think he

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Speaker 1: sets this bar correctly, which is, if Democrats don't win

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Speaker 1: the Senate, they don't win the midterms.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Winning the House is simply participating, right, that's table stakes.

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Speaker 1: Winning the Senate means you won an argument, you won

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Speaker 1: the campaign because you convince people who normally aren't on

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Speaker 1: your side to be on your side. That's winning, right.

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Speaker 1: Winning the House is simply participating. Winning the House is

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Speaker 1: a participation trophy. Winning the Senate is winning the midterms.

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Speaker 1: So a year from now, if we're in a situation

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Speaker 1: where we say the Democrats swept the House in the Senate,

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Speaker 1: we will then go back and say Donald Trump's lame

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Speaker 1: duck presidency hit lame ducks status election Day twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: and arguably it probably happened a bit sooner. We might

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Speaker 1: say that essentially the symbolic beginning of his lame duckness

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Speaker 1: was the destruction of the East Wing when he became

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Speaker 1: so consumed with his personal legacy and he stopped worrying

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Speaker 1: about the American voter. Right. Look, Donald Trump's history is

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Speaker 1: he wants to get everything he can out of you

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Speaker 1: that benefits him. And once he drains, once you've given

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Speaker 1: him everything he can get out of you, he moves on. Right,

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Speaker 1: My substeck this week is about how I think I

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Speaker 1: think he has treated the Republican Party the way he

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Speaker 1: treated many of the casinos that he operated or businesses

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Speaker 1: that he's run, which is he essentially leveraged it for

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Speaker 1: his benefit, left this entity with a huge debt. In

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Speaker 1: this case, the debt he has left him as moral

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Speaker 1: and ethical bankruptcy. And then he's gonna walk away. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party is going to be the pardon of

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Speaker 1: shitty pardons, is going to be the party of that

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Speaker 1: doesn't care about the rule of law unless it applies

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Speaker 1: only to the other side, like he is gonna that

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Speaker 1: they're part of that. The legacy is somehow the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party is the party of crypto scammers. Like that's not

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Speaker 1: a good legacy. And then you throw in Epstein here,

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Speaker 1: and he's the party of protecting the Pedophiles. This episode

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Speaker 1: telling you, it's excellent, excellent, bright. There's nothing more the

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Speaker 1: Republican Party can do for Donald Trump. There is no

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Speaker 1: opportunity to run again. So now Donald Trump's worried about

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, and because of that, does it appears to

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Speaker 1: not even be worried about the voter anymore. And this

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Speaker 1: is where he goes from having a teflon suit and

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Speaker 1: he was teflon Don and he's been teflon Don. Right.

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Speaker 1: You know, he can attack John McCain and not lose somebody.

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Speaker 1: He could shoot somebody apparently on Fifth Avenue and not

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Speaker 1: lose a supporter. But if this economy sucks, and if

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Speaker 1: the grocery bills, he can't Jedi mind trick away a

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Speaker 1: grocery bill. And then suddenly when that happens, and they think, well,

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Speaker 1: my life sucks, and this guy is worried more about

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Speaker 1: the East wing of the White House. Oh yeah, and

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Speaker 1: this guy protected a pedophile for decades, and this guy's

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Speaker 1: going to commute or the sentence of said pedophiles partner

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Speaker 1: in crime, literal partner in crime, and Gallaine Maxwell, that's

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Speaker 1: how this that's how this story matters, right, And now

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Speaker 1: you've got this orchestration of a series of votes where

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Speaker 1: you know Epstein is one of these few stories. We

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Speaker 1: live in this siloed information world where literally, you know,

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Speaker 1: I could say, you know, I mean, I'm gonna have

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Speaker 1: an interview with Clay Travis in a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 1: I don't think my mother knows who Clay Travis is.

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Speaker 1: And I say this with no, you know, why should

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Speaker 1: she you know he is? He is in a different

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Speaker 1: media ecosystem than my mother travels in. She doesn't, you know,

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Speaker 1: she watches a lot of college football, but it happens

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Speaker 1: she doesn't watch anything on Fox because Miami doesn't ever

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Speaker 1: play on Fox. They usually play on the ESPN or ABC,

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Speaker 1: so she might be aware of ESPN personalities, but she's

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Speaker 1: not aware of any Fox Sports personalities, let alone aware

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Speaker 1: of his radio show or any of those things. And

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Speaker 1: Epstein's one of these stories that every every single silo

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Speaker 1: has an Epstein corner. Right, Your MAGA silo has an

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Speaker 1: Epstein corner, Your sort of never Trump silo has Epstein corners,

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Speaker 1: your sort of center, your sort of mainstream media has

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Speaker 1: an Epstein corner, Your progressive wing has an Epstein corner. Right,

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Speaker 1: there is this collective interest in Epstein. And let's be honest,

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Speaker 1: why there is. It's all you know, at first, the

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Speaker 1: rights interest in Epstein was all about Bill Clinton, nothing else.

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Speaker 1: It was always about Bill Clint. That's how the right

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Speaker 1: got fascinated by this. They were hoping to paint and

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Speaker 1: it was all these you know, democratics are all part

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Speaker 1: of this weird pedophilia conspiracy that QAnon launched. All this

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Speaker 1: it's all sort of wrapped up in that. And then

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Speaker 1: Trump's names showed up in the Epstein files. Right then

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Speaker 1: we realized. And then Trump became a cornerstone of MAGA

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Speaker 1: and became sort of created somebody's created mega, right, certainly,

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Speaker 1: it's always a question, you know, like anything. Trump doesn't

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Speaker 1: create anything. He just sort of got in front of

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Speaker 1: a parade that was that was starting to form, and

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Speaker 1: then suddenly he became their leader and their unifier. But

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Speaker 1: here we are, and now everybody else is interested in

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Speaker 1: it because you're like, whoa, So Trump's involved in this

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Speaker 1: and this side, you know, and it's just one of

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Speaker 1: those stories that everybody's got a stake in. So this

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Speaker 1: is going to be a story that constantly, just like

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Speaker 1: the economy is right, the economy breaks through every because

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Speaker 1: you can't sort of information silo your grocery bill. You know,

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Speaker 1: there isn't a Fox News version of the grocery bill

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Speaker 1: or an MSNBC version of the grocery bill. So you

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Speaker 1: can't do that with the economy, and in this unique case,

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Speaker 1: you can't do it with the Epstein story. And this

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Speaker 1: is why this feels like a very lame that this

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Speaker 1: is what lame duck. What happens to lame duck presidencies

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Speaker 1: is that they can't stop feeding frenzies anymore. You know,

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Speaker 1: this happened with George W.

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Speaker 2: Bush.

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Speaker 1: You know a lot of people will say the feeding frenzies,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of the lame duck period of the

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Speaker 1: Bush presidency began with the twenty oh six midterms. I'd

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Speaker 1: actually argue, or you could go backwards and say it

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Speaker 1: began with the Terry Schivo thing, when they went full

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Speaker 1: bore on that and the public revolted and they couldn't

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Speaker 1: sort of, you know, their typical positions didn't work, their

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Speaker 1: typical media spin didn't work. And then you realize, you know,

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Speaker 1: his credibility was shot. It was already weakening due to

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Speaker 1: our rock. Terry Schivo hits, then Katrina happens, and then

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Speaker 1: the whole thing is over. But Katrina didn't start the

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Speaker 1: lame duck period. The lame duck period actually began at

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Speaker 1: the tail, at the at the beginning of five when

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Speaker 1: he started messing around with the Shivo business, social security investments,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. And so that's where I think this if

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Speaker 1: we're if indeed we're able to in a year from now,

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Speaker 1: really in it. We have the environment that we have

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Speaker 1: and it does turn into a democratic suite, we will

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Speaker 1: say this lame duck period began in the fall of

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Speaker 1: In the fall of this year, just like with Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden's presidency. It turned out the beginning of the end

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Speaker 1: of his presidency happened really early in his presidency, right

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Speaker 1: with the Afghanistan withdrawal and the inability to to sort

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Speaker 1: of hold anybody accountable, fix it, explain it, and he

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Speaker 1: never recovered from there. And while because he was a

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Speaker 1: first term president, you'd never say lame duck, in hindsight,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's when he lost. That's when he lost

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Speaker 1: the plot, and it was and everything went downhill from there.

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Speaker 1: You know. That's I think the situation we may be

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Speaker 1: living him now, and the nightmare for the White House

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Speaker 1: press shop is is, you know, Trump has not helped

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Speaker 1: them at all. You know, I argue that he actually

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Speaker 1: had a you know, Trump's problem is going soft on

427
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: Maxwell because by going soft on Maxwell, but he is

428
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: essentially confirmed the idea that Maxwell knows some stuff, that

429
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 1: he's friendly with her, that he knows her, and it

430
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 1: undermines the story that he had sort of lived with

431
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 1: for a while when it came to Epstein that I

432
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: that mostly worked with his supporters, which was, yeah, I

433
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: knew Jeffrey Epstein very well. And then our relationship ended

434
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: because I didn't like what he was doing to, you know,

435
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: women on my at mar Alago. So we had this

436
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: sort of story that was that had some credibility to

437
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: it that you know, he didn't because there was it

438
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: was true he recruited apparently he recruited one of these

439
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: women from mar Alago, and Trump said he kicked him

440
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: out of mar Alago and said, you can't come back here.

441
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: Now we now learned that that that the reason for

442
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: the real breakup between Epstein and Trump wasn't that it

443
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: was over a piece of property in Palm Beach. We

444
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: eventually learned about that later, but he had a story

445
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: that he was feeding his supporters that yeah, I knew Epstein,

446
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: and then when I realized what he was doing.

447
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: I was out.

448
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: I didn't want that Slee's bag around. Okay, then why

449
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 1: are you soft on Delanne Maxwell? If you're so outraged

450
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: by what Jeffrey Epstein did, then your Justice Department should

451
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: have made life harder for Maxwell, not easier. But you

452
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: went soft on her. And what he did was is

453
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 1: essentially made it impossible to defend Trump's actions. You couldn't say,

454
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: you know, if he was as disgusted by what Epstein

455
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 1: did as he said and he's as disgusted as his

456
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: supporters say they are disgusted. Then this idea of leniency

457
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: on her, giving her, you know, the club fed treatment

458
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: when it comes to transferring her in prison, sending your

459
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: personal attorney who happens to be the Deputy Attorney General,

460
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: to coax answers out of her, including the I never

461
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: saw anything untoward. Uh, it was so important to him

462
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: to get that on the record. But Trump seems to

463
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,959
Speaker 1: be worried about something with Maxwell, when if he actually

464
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: wanted to keep his con up on Epstein, and let's

465
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 1: assume I'm gonna assume it's a con. And you know,

466
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: with Trump, it's it's hard not to assume that. So

467
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: let's I'm gonna assume it's a con. He'd have been

468
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: better off playing he said she said with her, and

469
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: said he'd and then made life tougher on her. And

470
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 1: and if and if she threatened to go public with stuff,

471
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: let her go public. She's the one sitting in prison.

472
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: She's got the credibility problem. And then if you were

473
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: being tough on her and she was then pushing back,

474
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: it could simply be she's squealing. But the fact he

475
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: didn't do that right, whatever she he thinks she knows,

476
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: he seems to be fearful enough of that. It's leveraged

477
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: that she's successfully used with him and with Todd Blanche

478
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: and that's why his story falls apart. Now again, does

479
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: any of this matter politically, Well, I go back to

480
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: every Republican's been carrying around Trump baggage for a long time,

481
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: and in some ways they're now used to it. But

482
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: when the economy is as bad as it is right

483
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: now for so many people, and as frustrating of an

484
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: economy as this is, and that's what it is. It's

485
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: a you know, it's one of these things that you

486
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: can look at it statistically and say, well, this is

487
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: going well. Like I saw a stat today that said

488
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: that publicly traded companies are having one of the best

489
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: years earning wise that we've seen. Ninety two percent of

490
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: them are reporting earnings above the normal average. And you're

491
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: just like wow, And yet jobs are decreasing, not increasing, right,

492
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: So that means Wall Street's being rewarded for its efficiencies

493
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: in its companies. Wall Street's being as they as a

494
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: company should make. Your productivity is up and your labor

495
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: costs are down. Good for you. Investors like that. But

496
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: that means there's a whole bunch of people in this

497
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: economy not succeeding. And so that's why it's very hard

498
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: to you know, when Trump's using the stock market as

499
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: a as a as proof that his economy is doing well,

500
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, you're you're you're with the hat your

501
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: your economy is working for the haves. Your economy is

502
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: not working for the have nots. And the irony is

503
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: that he built his political coalition on the have nots

504
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: very successfully and now he doesn't seem to care about

505
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: the have nots anymore. And that's where what when these

506
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: That's when I go back to Epstein for the longest time,

507
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: it is basically run into teflon don and has slid

508
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: off of him. Well, I think it's I think he

509
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: is now has a suit of velcrow on. More things

510
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: are sticking to him than ever before. Right, you've got

511
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: sleepy eyes Trump, Now that's sticking to him. You've got

512
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: the medical issues. Huh, something's going on. If he passed

513
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: his MRI. You don't pass an MRI, but congratulations, I

514
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: guess you know you're not at You don't you don't

515
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: do an MRI unless they're wondering what, unless they can't

516
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: find the problem of something that's bothering you. So you

517
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: got that he's just doesn't seem healthy, doesn't look healthy,

518
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: doesn't behavior low. And you can see he's really aged

519
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: a lot in the last six months. Go look at

520
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: clips from April and then look at clips in the

521
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: last two weeks. His voice is thinner. Maybe there are

522
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: days that you know, you could just tell he there

523
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: are days where you know he's tired, and that's always

524
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: a sign of aging. And of course when you're at

525
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: a certain age, and this happened with Biden, just because

526
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: things are fine six months ago, you know this is

527
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: one of those things. At some point in your late

528
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: seventies early eighties, you can you know, you don't age

529
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: at an equal rate. Okay, you sort of go. You

530
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: have fits and starts, and then you know, we've seen that.

531
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: I've had elderly relatives where everything's fine, and then you

532
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: don't see him for six months and you're like, holy cow,

533
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 1: what happened to uncle Joe? Or I have a real

534
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: uncle Joe, So no, nothing's happened to uncle Joe. I

535
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: don't want uncle Joe. That isn't about about you. I

536
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: was just using like Jane, and I'll go uncle John Doe.

537
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: I don't have an uncle John, so I'll do uncle John.

538
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: Oh my god, what happened to Uncle John? Or what

539
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 1: happened at Jane? And you know that happens in these

540
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: three and six months. And the point is is that

541
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: you know, it's like the you know, it's like in business,

542
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: your hockey stick moment, but going the wrong way. You're

543
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: going along, You're going along, and all of a sudden, Yep,

544
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: it's off a cliff. It just collectively feels like he

545
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: has now got a suit of valcrow. And so if

546
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: we have essentially six weeks of every couple of days

547
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: there's an Epstein development, which now there's going to be

548
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: now that this discharge petition has happened, they're going to

549
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: have this vote at some point in the next couple

550
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: of weeks that will be there. Then you then it

551
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: has to go to the Senate. I you know, there

552
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: was a time I thought, eh, the Senate will kill it.

553
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: I don't know anymore. Right, it's going to be an

554
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: interesting test. How many Republicans will there be thirty, will

555
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: there be thirteen Republicans who joined forty seven Democrats to

556
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: force this release and force it on is you know,

557
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: for you know, have both the House and the Senate

558
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: have this. That's an interesting development. Is it a moment

559
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: where some Republicans decide, I need to show some independence

560
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: from Trump? Is this the safest place.

561
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: To do it? Right?

562
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: It could be the healthcare subsidies could be a way

563
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: that Republicans distance from Trump. The tariff ruling when it

564
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: comes out likely saying that his his tariffs are unconstitutional.

565
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: Is that at the moment is that the Epstein files.

566
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: The point is there's a lot of ways now that

567
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: Republicans can start to put some distance in a in

568
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: what will look like a baby step, right just voting

569
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: against him on Epstein, or voting against him on tariffs,

570
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: or voting against him on healthcare subsidies. That suddenly what

571
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: is a trickle turns into of you know, a rush

572
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: of you well of water coming out of the faucet,

573
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: essentially trying to get away from him. So that's how

574
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: I think this story is potentially that you know, it's

575
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: it's like javert, do you got him? Now? You know?

576
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: It's it's the accumulation and it's the fact, because of

577
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: this sour economy, he's now wearing a suit with velcrow

578
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: on it and more things. More of this other stuff

579
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: is now going to start to stick to him because

580
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: he he didn't handle the main thing. He was elected

581
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: for one reason and one reason, only bring down costs,

582
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: and he's failing massively at that, which means every other

583
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: secondary issue becomes a problem for that voter because they think, wow,

584
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: he can't do this well. He must be that. He

585
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: must be that, he must be that. And that's why

586
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: this Epstein story could be just yet another sign that

587
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: the lame duck status is now the You know, if

588
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: you were to go to Trump's Facebook page, he should change.

589
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: He may have to change his status to lame duck.

590
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: So with that, I'll sneak in a break and we'll bring

591
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: in Adam Jennilsen. There's a reason results matter more than promises,

592
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: just like there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's

593
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: largest injury law firm. For the last thirty five years,

594
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: they've recovered twenty five billion dollars for more than half

595
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: a million clients. It includes case where insurance companies offered

596
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: next to nothing just hoping to get away with paying

597
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: as little as possible. Morgan and Morgan fought back ended

598
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: up winning millions. In fact, in Pennsylvania, one client was

599
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 1: awarded twenty six million dollars, which was a staggering forty

600
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: times the amount that the insurance company originally offered. That

601
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: original offer six hundred and fifty thousand dollars twenty six million,

602
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: six hundred fifty thousand dollars. So with more than one

603
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 1: thousand lawyers across the country, they know how to deliver

604
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: for everyday people. If you're injured, you need a lawyer.

605
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: You need somebody to get your back. Check out for

606
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: the People dot com, Slash podcast, or dial pound law,

607
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: pound five two nine law on your cell phone. And

608
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: remember all law firms are not the same. So check

609
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee is free unless they win.

610
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: So joining me now is Adam Gentlelsid. I've known him

611
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: a long time. He was a longtime staffer for the

612
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: late Senate Majority leader Harry He's author of a book

613
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: about the Senate called kill Switch, The Rise of the

614
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: Modern Senate and the Crippling of American Democracy. So we'll

615
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: have a little fun about about how broken is the

616
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: Senate and how to repair it? But I have them

617
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: on because you just started anew and I'll be curious

618
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: what you describe it, Adam. Is it a think tank?

619
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: Is it a research institute? But it's named after the

620
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: hometown of Harry Reid, search Light, Nevada. It's called the

621
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: search Light. May make sure I get this right? Well,

622
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: you could tell me for sure, search Light Institute? Is

623
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: that right? Right?

624
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: Got it?

625
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 1: Here we go, so basically trying to get Democrats to

626
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: broaden the tent, make the case that this is a

627
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 1: big tent. And given that you worked for Harry Reid,

628
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: who was for years known as personally pro life or

629
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: pro gun at times, you know, certainly was culturally a

630
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 1: bit conservative, if a probably an original populist on economic

631
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: issues that I think people if you didn't follow his

632
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: career closely, might not realize. So in many ways, naming

633
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: it after Harry read makes a lot of sense to me.

634
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 1: But what is it? What do you describe search Slight Institutes?

635
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: The think tank? Is it something else?

636
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: We are an action tank, Chuck?

637
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 3: And that feels like a focus group word, dude, Well,

638
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 3: you know the reason I call it that is that

639
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 3: is that you know, we we develop ideas, but we

640
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 3: don't want them to sit on the shelf.

641
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: You know, these aren't white papers that are designed to

642
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 2: just sort of be read by academics and policy wonks.

643
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: You know, they're they're well thought through, their credible, but

644
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: we want them to be put into action, and we

645
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 2: want them to become legislation. We want them to become

646
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 2: talked about on campaigns, and we want them to shape

647
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 2: the debate. And so the part of the reason we

648
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: have both a policy development arm of what we do

649
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: and and appolling arm of what we do is to

650
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: you know, try to get that balance right between being

651
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: responsive to the public listening to the American people. I

652
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: think in a democracy it's very important to actually have

653
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: the policies that are developed reflect the will of the people,

654
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: but then factor that in to how we develop our

655
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: own policies, you know, And we don't just pull to

656
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: say what's popular. We just want to understand people think

657
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: and then design people design policy in a way that

658
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 2: sort of bridges the divide sometimes between what we think

659
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: is correct on the policy and where the American people

660
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: are in their own thoughts and feelings on the issue.

661
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: Compare yourself to cat Center for American Progress, which is

662
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: arguably the sort of the leading progressive think tank these

663
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: days in Washington. We're more head of Then and Then

664
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 1: and Brookings, you know, more center left, I guess, or

665
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: you might say very academic in comparison to the other two.

666
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And I think on sort of ideology

667
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: compared to both of those, we are more heterodox. We

668
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: will take the best ideas from wherever they come from,

669
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: from across the ideological spectrum. And it's my own personal

670
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: view that the best and most durable and frankly the

671
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 2: policies that bring the biggest change to this country tend

672
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: to reflect points of view from across the ideological spectrum.

673
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 2: So I think a lot about social Security, right and

674
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: you know, people have called social Security liberal ends by

675
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 2: conservative means. It's the greatest anti poverty we've ever implemented.

676
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 2: Is you know, a core part of Democrats appeal to

677
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: the American people, but it also embraced conservative principles of

678
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: personal responsibility people paid in FDR himself was personally would

679
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 2: rail against the dole and cabinet meetings. He would say,

680
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: this is not a dole, this is not welfare people

681
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 2: are going to earn what they get, they're going to

682
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 2: pay into it through the payroll tax, and then I

683
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 2: get something back in return. So you know, we try,

684
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 2: we try to think about that balance as we develop policy.

685
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 2: We're smaller, we're nimble. I think we're more action oriented

686
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 2: than some of the folks who've been around for a

687
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 2: long time. And I think, but you know, it's it's

688
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned.

689
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: We were talking off camera here for a minute and

690
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: you were talking about how your office space is right

691
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: in your heritage, and it's interesting you brought up Social

692
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: Security as an example that sort of meshed a liberal

693
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: and conservative idea. I could argue Obamacare did the same thing, right,

694
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: you know, the infamous heritage. You know, the heritage has

695
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: been through a lot of shall we say, facelifts over

696
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: the years. Maybe they have a mar lago look now

697
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: that they went to the doctor and got my joke,

698
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: not years, but in the nineties they came up with

699
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: essentially the healthcare plan that was the model for Mett

700
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: Romney and arguably the model for Barack Obama.

701
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: That's exactly right, and you know, having sort of been

702
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: actually a cap for a little while while while the

703
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: affordable character was being debated during the OI campaign and

704
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: then legislated and then being on the hill through a

705
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 2: lot of that too. That's exactly right, and you know,

706
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 2: part of the way that we were able to pass

707
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: that was by embracing conservative ideas, and in fact it

708
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 2: was modeled You're one hundred percent correct. There was a

709
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 2: Heritage study in the nineties that sort of provided the

710
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 2: intellectual basis for it, and then it was put into

711
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 2: practice first by Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney when he was

712
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: governor there, and people called it Romneycare, so you know,

713
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 2: before it was Obamacare, it was Romneycare, and it certainly

714
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: reflected you know, the idea of having an individual mandate,

715
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: you know, and other aspects of it were and you know,

716
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 2: frankly being aimed at bending the cost curve, at bringing

717
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 2: down the deficit. These are all conservative principles that were

718
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: incorporating into that development, although Heritage walked away from it.

719
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: You know, every once in a while, I always try

720
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: to give little breadcrumbs to sort of like, you know,

721
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: how my political mind was shaped by my parents, and

722
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: you know, my father had this saying when I remember

723
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: as a kid, he'd said, you know, and I'd ask him,

724
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: you know, and he was he became a he was

725
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: a Reagan Democrat that became a Reagan Conservative. And he'd

726
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: say he left the Democratic Party over LPJ and Vietnam.

727
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: That was that was sort of where you went. But

728
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: he used to also say, he goes, you know, I

729
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: want the Democrats to come up with the ideas and

730
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: I want the Republicans to implement them. It was like

731
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: that that was his in his mindset, you know, at

732
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: the time, and that back in the seventies and eighties,

733
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: the perception of the two parties was, you know, the

734
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: the managerial brain was on the Republican side and the

735
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 1: the empathy brain was on the Democratic side, and that

736
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 1: you know, if you had too much empathy, it would

737
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: be too expensive. You needed, you know, that sort of balance.

738
00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: And in some ways what you're describing here was what

739
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: you describe to Social Security, what we were retelling the

740
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: story of Obamacare somewhere that does sort of work itself

741
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: out right, that the stuff that sticks is the stuff

742
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: that is more ideologically diverse when it comes to the

743
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: cooks in the kitchen that create the policy.

744
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 2: Right, that's that's exactly right. I mean, you know, we've

745
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 2: fallen out of this balance, and we're talking.

746
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: About for polarized.

747
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 2: We're so polarized, we'll talk about Philbuster, you know. You know,

748
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: I think that's a big part of it.

749
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 1: I argue the two parties aren't as you know, I

750
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: always say, what's the biggest change in American politics in

751
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: my lifetime, It's been the lack of ideological diversity inside

752
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: the two parties.

753
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 2: Oh well, you know, I mean think of that was

754
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 2: the huge chain, one hundred percent. I mean, I think

755
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 2: a lot about what the Senate Democratic Caucus looked like

756
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 2: back when I worked for Harry Reid in the Senate

757
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: and we had first of all, we.

758
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: Talk about all those northern red states that had Democratic

759
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: senators for well.

760
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, both Dakotas, you know, we had senators there,

761
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: We had a senator Nebraska. We had both Senate boat.

762
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: Centers in Nebraska for a long time.

763
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 2: That's right, Bob Carry and Ben Nelson. We had both

764
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 2: Senate seats in Montana for a long time, both seats

765
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 2: in Arkansas. If you want to move further south, Louisia

766
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: had one seat in Louisiana. I mean you know, we

767
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: had I think when I went to count it, it

768
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 2: was we had at least one one Senate seat in

769
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 2: thirty six of the fifty states, right, so just really

770
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: spread across the country. And the reason why was this

771
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: ideological diversity that you're describing. You know, senators like Max Bocchus,

772
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: ben Nelson, mary Landrew, Blanche Lincoln. They were four things

773
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 2: like you know, mary Landrew was strongly in favor of

774
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 2: the fossil fuel industry, coming from a state like Louisiana

775
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 2: where that was critical to the economy. Ben Nelson was

776
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 2: pro life, Blanche Lincoln was in favor of fiscal responsibility

777
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 2: and balanced budgets.

778
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: Right.

779
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: And that didn't make them not Democrats, right, They still

780
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 2: were strongly Democratic on most issues. They still voted with

781
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: the party, you know, on most issues. But embracing that

782
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: ideological diversity is what allowed us to win that seats

783
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 2: in those states. And what we've done over the last

784
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: ten years is to try to purity test out anybody

785
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 2: who has any kind of ideological diversity, particularly when it

786
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: goes to the right, and that's just shot ourselves in

787
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: the foot. It's left us unable to win seats in

788
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 2: those red states where we barely can can't even compete

789
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 2: these days.

790
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you brought up Blanche Lincoln and

791
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: remember that primary challenge she had to deal with sure

792
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: do yep and organizing him right, And it was it

793
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: was you're just sitting there going, guys, what are you doing.

794
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 1: She's already in a tough general election. What are you

795
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: doing to her? And it made a tough situation worse well.

796
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: And it's a good point because you know, I think

797
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,359
Speaker 2: what gets mixed up in the sort of debate on

798
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: social media and elsewhere about this is that to embrace

799
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 2: somebody like Blanche Lincoln doesn't require you or your friends

800
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: or most other Democrats to change their points of view. Right,

801
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 2: I'm strongly pro union. Most of my policy views are

802
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 2: probably pretty far to the left of the American electorate.

803
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,479
Speaker 2: But for someone like Lincoln to win in a state

804
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 2: like Arkansas, she's going to have to take different positions,

805
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 2: positions that diverge from my own, and that impulse towards

806
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: purity is going to guarantee that our caucus is smaller,

807
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 2: that the number of Americans Democrats are able to represent

808
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 2: is smaller that the number of Americans who look at

809
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: Democrats and say that is a party I want to

810
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 2: be a part of. Is smaller.

811
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 1: You know. I got my start at National Journal, and

812
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: they were famous in the seventies and eighties and nineties

813
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 1: for doing this.

814
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 2: You know.

815
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: Now we've got a whole bunch of other ways that

816
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: people look to use sort of votes to put people

817
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 1: on the political spectrum. But there was always when I

818
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: first started at National Journal, when the Almanek would come out,

819
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: it was always interesting how many Democrats are to the

820
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: right of the most liberal Republican and how many Republicans

821
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: are to the left of the most conservative Democrats. And

822
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 1: there was always you know, and we would lament, Oh,

823
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: it's getting smaller every year. I think it's been a

824
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: decade since the streams have crossed, meaning like you know,

825
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: I think Mansion and Collins were like this. If I'm

826
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: for those of you just listening on audio, my hands

827
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: are very close together but not touching, almost in the

828
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:11,800
Speaker 1: way it was almost felt like they were being repelled.

829
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 1: Do you think that is a bad thing or a

830
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 1: good thing for the US c oh.

831
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's a very bad thing.

832
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 2: I think that you have to have people on you know,

833
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: you have to be able to build bridges across the

834
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: logical lines, and you know, sometimes you can do that

835
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 2: in a strange Bedfellow's way, where you know, you have

836
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 2: you know, a Bernie Sanders alliance with a Josh Holly

837
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 2: or you know on some.

838
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 1: Is sure and you see this in some of these populists.

839
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but I think that it shouldn't be the

840
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 2: case that you know, the sort of you know that

841
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 2: there's no senator in the Democratic Caucus who is anywhere

842
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: close to Republicans on ideology. I could get beat up

843
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 2: by some of my party for saying that, but I think,

844
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 2: you know what if that is the case, you know,

845
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 2: there are consequences, there are trade offs to taking that approach,

846
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 2: and that's what we have here where Democrats can only

847
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: win forty seven sentence seats at best, you know, maybe

848
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,840
Speaker 2: scrape by to the narrowest imaginable majority, but that's you know,

849
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 2: there's a consequence of taking that approach and narrowing your

850
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: tents simply means you can win in fewer places.

851
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: Look, and to me, this is the I think the

852
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 1: baseline of what I remember seeing your press release when

853
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: you first came out. I think an op ed that

854
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: you wrote as well. You know, I think that the

855
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 1: twenty thirty two presidential election, if you just if Kamala

856
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: Harris carried the same the Democratic candidate carries every state

857
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: that Kamala Harris carried, and they won Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. Well,

858
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 1: and right now, that was worth two hundred and seventy

859
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: electoral votes. She'd have won right on the nose. That's

860
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: only going to be worth two hundred and fifty nine

861
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 1: electoral votes come twenty thirty two. That path, so every

862
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: state she carried, plus the three in the Midwest, the

863
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 1: three Midwestern states, and then when you look at Senate seats,

864
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,320
Speaker 1: because I've done this math, if Democrats sweep the seven

865
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: battlegrounds in Senate seats, right, and when every Senate seat

866
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: in every blue state that she carried, the max I

867
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:06,439
Speaker 1: think is fifty two.

868
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: Yep, that's right.

869
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: I mean you just said thirty six states at one point, right,

870
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: which is why I mean, let's look at Barack Obama's

871
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: first year, that six month period when you had sixty

872
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: Senate seats. All right, it was a brief period, and

873
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: it was you know, we can yes, it was some weird.

874
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: You know, you had the specter party switch and all that.

875
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is, I don't know

876
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 1: what a path to sixty would look like. Let's say

877
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: that was your goal, you know, got to get to

878
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 1: sixty Senate seats. What's that path look like in today's politics. Well,

879
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 1: that is our goal. I mean's that's what Searchlight is

880
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 1: here to do. We are trying to craft an agenda

881
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: and an approach that will allow Democrats to aim at

882
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: sixty Senate seats. We talk a lot about this idea

883
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 1: of super majority thinking here, and a supermajority mindset is

884
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: not to aim at two hundred and seventy electoral votes

885
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: and to try to scrape by there or aim at

886
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,359
Speaker 1: you know, narrow majorities in the House and Senate. It's

887
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: to aim at three hundred and sixty five electoral votes,

888
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: which is what Obama won in two thousand and eight,

889
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: and it's to aim at sixty Senate seats and then

890
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: work backwards from there. So you know, what that looks

891
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: like is much more flexibility on issues across the board.

892
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: You know, I personally think that if you were to

893
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: sort of devise a basic template, you know, and again

894
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: I sort of am allergic to templates. I think part

895
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: of what we're trying to do here is is create

896
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: more flexibility. But just for the sake of argument, you know,

897
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 1: let's let's root this in some you know, concrete idea

898
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: of ideology. I think, you know, economic populism is.

899
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 2: A powerful force. It's so powerful that Trump has embraced it.

900
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 2: Trump has moved to the center on issues like social

901
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 2: security and Medicare.

902
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: And the only reason Republicans got have won the popular

903
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: vote exactly right. I mean, I think it is at

904
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: that specific decision he doesn't make that. You know, we

905
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: all there's a lot of people that you know, say

906
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: Paul Ryan had a high character guy and all of

907
00:49:56,040 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 1: those things, but the Paul Ryan view of entitlements was

908
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: a losing issue for the Republican Party, which is why

909
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: Mett Romney never won the president.

910
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 2: And this is part of what our theory of the

911
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 2: case is, is that a Democratic presidential candidate can just

912
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 2: decide to embrace a different set of policy positions like

913
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: we are here to help provide that infrastructure and help

914
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 2: you know, create those ideas and provide the air cover.

915
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 1: Put a little bit of a blue stamp on it.

916
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: So it doesn't feel so hard for some left maybe.

917
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,760
Speaker 2: Right, but you were there. It's difficult to overstate how

918
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 2: sort of encased in concrete. The conventional wisdom was in

919
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen that entitlement cuts were part of what you

920
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 2: had to be in favor of in order to succeed

921
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 2: in a Republican primary. You know, Paul Ryan was the

922
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 2: vice presidential nominee in twenty twelve. He was the Speaker

923
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 2: of the House by the time the primary was in

924
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 2: full swing in twenty sixteen, Ryanism was considered, you know,

925
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 2: orthodoxy among Republicans, trying which lays the stool, right, that's irresponsibility. Right.

926
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 2: Trump just threw it all out the window, you know.

927
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:03,760
Speaker 2: I mean I remember him standing on the debate stage.

928
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:05,840
Speaker 2: You know. The Iraq War is another issue that was considered,

929
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 2: you know, orthodoxy. In twenty fifteen, he stood on a

930
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 2: debate stage in South Carolina and he turned to Jeb

931
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 2: Bush and said, I think the Iraq War that your

932
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 2: brother started was a big, fat mistake, you know. And

933
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 2: so it is really difficult to imagine a Democratic candidate

934
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 2: diverging from their party and taking stances in opposition to

935
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,840
Speaker 2: the Democratic ideology on that level, you know, of that magnitude.

936
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 2: But that's what we need is we need Democrats to say,

937
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 2: you know, we are here to break that rigidity, We

938
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: are here to open up a new pathway and to

939
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 2: bring in more voters. And you know, Trump, it is

940
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 2: an underappreciated aspect of his appeal that he was truly heterodox.

941
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 2: He defied his party's orthodoxy on three or four or

942
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 2: even more very high profile issues that were considered core

943
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 2: to the Republican ideology. And that's part of why people

944
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: saw him as a different kind of Republican.

945
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm convinced. And this is also why you can

946
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: sort of see I mean, I'm convinced that this is

947
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: a coalition it's not going to be able to hold

948
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: itself together without him in whatever you know, we you know,

949
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 1: set aside the character issue the guy has the guy

950
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 1: created a coalition that was unique. It was durable for him. Right,

951
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: It's not really been transferable, but it's been durable for him.

952
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 1: And and the thing is is you can see it, right,

953
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: the conversation on snap benefits the conversation on healthcare. They're

954
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: not singing off the same song sheet because they're actually

955
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: a coalition that that sort of got forged together and culture,

956
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,320
Speaker 1: and they're they're all over the place on economic policy,

957
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: and I think that's where this thing starts to break

958
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:39,919
Speaker 1: apart pretty soon.

959
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 2: I think that's right. I mean, that's that's the optimistic

960
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,240
Speaker 2: view for sure, and I think it's probably the right one,

961
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 2: you know, especially the economy keeps feeling the way it

962
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 2: definitely this it's a I always say, it's like, if

963
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 2: you have a little bit of money, this economy is okay.

964
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: You know, everything's a little more expensive, but it's okay.

965
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 1: If you have some money in the stock market, you

966
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 1: feel like, okay, I'm I've got Pad. But if you

967
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 1: don't have Pad, this economy is horrible. Right, that's the rendous.

968
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 2: It's the Disneyland phenomenon.

969
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 1: Right.

970
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 2: If you can afford the express pass, you know, it's great.

971
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 2: But if you can't, you know, you're stuck in three

972
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,399
Speaker 2: hour lines the whole time for one ride. So yeah,

973
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's you know, I worked for I

974
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 2: don't know of your listeners. Remember John Edwards the Center

975
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 2: of North Carolina in two thosand and eight. He talked

976
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: about two Americas, And I think that's what we're seeing these.

977
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 1: Days, having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know

978
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,919
Speaker 1: from personal experience. I was sixteen when my father passed away.

979
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 1: We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in

980
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,760
Speaker 1: the best shape. My mother, single mother, now widow, myself

981
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 1: sixteen trying to figure out how am I going to

982
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: pay for college and lo and behold, my dad had

983
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot,

984
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: but it was important at the time, and it's why

985
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he

986
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 1: know how important that would be in that moment. Well,

987
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988
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991
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992
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993
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994
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995
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996
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997
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998
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999
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1000
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Speaker 1: March twenty twenty five, Business Insider named Ethos the number

1001
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1002
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1003
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1005
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1006
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:07,359
Speaker 1: insurance is something you should really think about, especially if

1007
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: you've got a growing family. Boy, that speech would be

1008
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:17,879
Speaker 1: really resident today. I agree more so. I mean, you know, Edwards,

1009
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: he was a blast being there is a ton and

1010
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: I sort of I have not to go off on

1011
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 1: a tangent here I have. I think there's more empathy

1012
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 1: that that the Edwards family deserves. You never get over

1013
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 1: losing a child, and and I've always thought that their life, so,

1014
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: you know, and it threw him into politics, I get

1015
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: in some ways it did, But you know that that

1016
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 1: I think that you can't judge Edwards without understanding that.

1017
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: So I'm always a little more empathetic, I think than

1018
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 1: the average person on him. But boy, his you know,

1019
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 1: and what he was was it's old Southern populace and

1020
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 1: it's no different Zell Miller, Bill Clinton, Dick Riley. I

1021
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 1: think about all everything you're describing here. I think about

1022
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: what Trump is doing. This is what the Southern Democrats were,

1023
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: Those Southern Democratic governors were. They would they were like, hey,

1024
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: government can be a good thing for you, and we

1025
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 1: want to help you. But they were also culturally somewhat conservative, right,

1026
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 1: your Zell Millers, your Bill Clinton's, your Dick Riley's. But

1027
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 1: those Southern governors of the eighties, in some ways, the

1028
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:29,720
Speaker 1: economic policies they were pushing are exactly what's popular.

1029
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: Today, that's right. I mean, you know John Edwards, son

1030
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 2: of a mill worker, you know, I mean he was

1031
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 2: in touch with with regular people, and you know that

1032
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:39,440
Speaker 2: that economic populism, I mean, that was the foundation of

1033
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 2: the New Deal coalition, you know. I mean that that

1034
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 2: was the foundation of lbj's coalition too. You know, as

1035
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:46,960
Speaker 2: you mentioned your father, I mean, you know, some of

1036
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 2: the cultural stuff, that's that's the you know, on the

1037
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 2: Republican side, it's it's can you hold people together on

1038
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:57,720
Speaker 2: cultural issues while you pass economic policies that primarily benefit

1039
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 2: the wealthiest and the big corporations, and the Democratic side,

1040
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:04,280
Speaker 2: it's can you hold people together on economic populism issues,

1041
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 2: you know, while you often take stances on cultural issues

1042
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 2: that the American people don't agree with. And I think

1043
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 2: when Democrats and liberals succeed, it's when they're able to

1044
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 2: center their message on those core economic populist ideas and

1045
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 2: provide some flexibility on cultural issues in a way that

1046
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 2: will allow us to win in more states.

1047
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: Let me introduce an uncomfortable question about Democrats. I can

1048
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: make an argument that the four Democratic presidents of my

1049
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: lifetime that have been elected, Carter, Clinton, Obama, and Biden,

1050
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: none of them win without the economic downturn that was

1051
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: happening during their initial campaign. And I say that in

1052
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: that is that the only path to the presidency for

1053
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: a Democrat?

1054
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 2: Well, I think what that those downturns do is they,

1055
00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 2: you know, when you're in times of prosperity, people people

1056
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 2: gravitate more towards cultural issues, you know, And I think

1057
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 2: that's that's sort of a pattern there, and then Republicans,

1058
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 2: you know, win on cultural issues past policies that benefit

1059
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,200
Speaker 2: the top one percent and often you know, run up

1060
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 2: huge deficits, despite their you know, their claim to care

1061
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 2: about this corresponsibility, and then that leads to a crash

1062
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 2: and Democrats have to come in and you know, and

1063
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 2: refocuses the public's attention on how unbalanced and tilted towards

1064
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 2: the one percent Republicans policies, where I don't think it's

1065
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 2: a necessary precondition, but you know, it certainly focuses voters'

1066
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 2: minds on the unfairness and gross inequity of Republicans economic policies.

1067
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 2: For sure.

1068
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: Does that stark reality because I could argue that the

1069
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: last Democrat to win the White House without help from

1070
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: a poor economy was Kennedy? Does that stark reality mean

1071
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: that the Democrats should be less leaning into some cultural issues.

1072
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 2: I yeah, I think that's one hundred percent the case.

1073
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, part of what some of

1074
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: the work that we've done here at Searchlights has shown

1075
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 2: is that, you know, it's not just that we are

1076
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 2: out of step with the public on a lot of

1077
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: these cultural issues purely on the merits, it's also that

1078
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 2: focusing on them distracts the public's attention from the economic issues.

1079
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 2: It's it's what we call a crowding out effect. Where

1080
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 2: you know, simply, you know, you listen to the average

1081
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 2: Democrats stump speech today, it's a laundry list, and they

1082
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 2: go down and they acknowledge every issue under the sun,

1083
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 2: you know, and.

1084
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: The land acknowledgment. And I say this, I'm not trying

1085
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 1: to be snarky about it, but I just that listen that.

1086
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: You know, the DNC's most recent meetings started out with

1087
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 2: one and so I think, you know, look, Republicans will

1088
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 2: seize on that, and they'll attack you for it, you know,

1089
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 2: but you don't have to give them so much, ammo,

1090
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 2: and we and we do that all the time. And

1091
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 2: so then you know, it is not it is not

1092
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 2: inaccurate for a voter to fike to themselves.

1093
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:53,640
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1094
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 2: This Democrat seems more focused on these cultural issues that

1095
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 2: prior I don't agree with. But yeah, so where is

1096
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 2: your economics? You know What's really interesting, though, Chuck, is

1097
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 2: somebody who did an incredible job of avoiding that crowding

1098
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 2: out effect was Zoron Mamdani. We went through and we

1099
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 2: analyzed his paid media and you know, you do a

1100
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 2: word cloud based on the analysis, and in you know,

1101
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 2: words like affordable rent, freeze, billionaires like all those words

1102
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 2: were huge in the cloud. You literally could not find

1103
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 2: the words climate change or LGBTQ issues didn't appear in

1104
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 2: the cloud because didn't appear in the cloud either. He

1105
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 2: chose not to talk about it, you know, and and

1106
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 2: so he became sort of almost like, you know, a

1107
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 2: joke by the end of the campaign that he could

1108
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 2: take any conversation and steer it back towards affordability. Right,

1109
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 2: So that kind of message. And of course Zorn cares

1110
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 2: about climate change. Of course he cares about LGBTQ rights.

1111
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 2: You know, He's not throwing those causes under the bus.

1112
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 2: He's making a conscious decision to focus his campaign relentlessly

1113
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 2: on kitchen table issues. So you know, I wouldn't take

1114
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 2: all of his ideological positions and try to apply them

1115
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 2: in other states, but I certainly would take that discipline

1116
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 2: practice and avoiding crowding out that he demonstrated as a

1117
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 2: lesson that can be universalizable in other places.

1118
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: So, look, we're taping just to timestamp this on a Wednesday,

1119
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 1: November twelve, where the government is in the process of

1120
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: being reopened. Perhaps the release of the Epstein emails has

1121
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 1: distracted the left's anger at the at Schumer and the

1122
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: Democratic senators that chose to put a pause in this

1123
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: in this debate. And I call it a pause because

1124
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 1: I I'll just be I think a better messenger. You know,

1125
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: I think you and I both know Bill Clinton would

1126
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: have been able to say, we're going to feed people,

1127
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 1: We're going to let you get to grandma, and we're

1128
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: going to make sure grandma comes home to you to

1129
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 1: this holidays. We haven't given We're we're not giving up

1130
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: this fight on healthcare. And in fact, we've got more

1131
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: people focused on it than ever. We've got them super

1132
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: nervous about it. But yeah, we're going to reopen the government,

1133
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: and this is why we're going to reopen the government.

1134
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: But it's only for the next and they they're on

1135
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: the clock and they have sixty five days. Why was

1136
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 1: that not an effective way to sell the reopening of

1137
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 1: this government.

1138
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 2: I think expectations got completely out of whack, you know,

1139
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 2: And this is this is a responsibility of leadership, you know, Frankly,

1140
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 2: is that you know the idea Republicans were never going

1141
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 2: to give Democrats a full year extension of the subsidies.

1142
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 2: You know, this was just not.

1143
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,479
Speaker 1: Without a fight. I mean, they still might. I still

1144
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: think there will be. My theory is it won't be

1145
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: a majority of Republicans that do it, but that there's

1146
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:30,320
Speaker 1: going to be enough to force the issue.

1147
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's right. I mean, I think as

1148
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 2: the political pain takes hold, you know, that's that's probably

1149
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 2: the case. But you know that's got to have You

1150
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 2: got to give that time to breathe and give that

1151
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 2: time for people to start feeling that. You know, I

1152
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 2: don't want them to feel the pain, but because of

1153
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 2: the Republicans policy choices, they're going to. So I think, look,

1154
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 2: you know, I mean the problem with being a congressional

1155
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 2: leader is that the skills that help you get that

1156
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 2: job aren't always the same skills that make you good

1157
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 2: at communicating with the public, you know, And so it

1158
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 2: is a very inside baseball job. It is about. You know,

1159
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 2: you worked for.

1160
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: A senator who was really good behind the scenes, and

1161
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:12,680
Speaker 1: he was was the best community care Let's.

1162
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 2: You'd be the first to say it, you know, I

1163
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 2: mean it was.

1164
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: I I say this, I love talking to him. Right

1165
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: the minute it was on the record, his everything changed

1166
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 1: about it.

1167
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 2: Well, he didn't care, you know. I mean that's the

1168
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 2: other thing is that he didn't care that he didn't

1169
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 2: have a you know, a you know, flowery SoundBite. You know,

1170
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 2: he would give you exactly what he wanted to say.

1171
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 2: He'd say it very quietly, you know. Uh, And and

1172
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 2: that was it because he had the confidence of knowing

1173
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 2: that he you know, he thought through the strategy that

1174
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 2: he had the caucus behind him. So it's always been

1175
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 2: the case. I mean, Nancy Pelosi was an incredible leader,

1176
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 2: but was also you know, a huge target of Republican attacks, right,

1177
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 2: so he wasn't the best communicator. That's that's right, And

1178
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 2: it's it's a difficult combination of skills, you know, and

1179
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 2: especially today in a medium vironment that prioritizes or that

1180
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 2: you know, where the ability to communicate across mediums, to

1181
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 2: be natural on camera, to be quick with the quip,

1182
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:10,800
Speaker 2: you know. It's so that's just something that is evolving

1183
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 2: and we're going to have to figure that out as

1184
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 2: as the caucus decides, you know, what's the right mix

1185
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 2: they want to see in the next leader.

1186
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 1: So it's funny, it's it's one of these cases where

1187
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: it's Schumer's fault that this is being misinterpreted, whether it's

1188
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's this is not. It's not as much

1189
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 1: about the tactics, it's more about how he communicated.

1190
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 2: I think there's a there's a communication aspect, but there's

1191
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 2: also a decision making aspect to this too, which is

1192
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 2: that at some there was never really an end game here, right,

1193
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 2: and at some point.

1194
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: And every shutdown ends almost exactly how this shutdown is

1195
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 1: exactly the same. Whether right, you don't get what.

1196
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 2: You want, you never get literally never in the history

1197
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 2: of shutdowns has the side that is demanding a major

1198
01:04:56,880 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 2: policy concession gotten that concession. Right, just doesn't happen. And so,

1199
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 2: you know, a the decision to do in the first place,

1200
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 2: I think probably that was inevitable, especially after one in

1201
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 2: the spring. The caucus just wasn't You.

1202
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 1: Could feel it. It's like letting steam out of about

1203
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 1: you kind of had it, and they found the issue, right,

1204
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 1: that's right. I look, the reality is this was a

1205
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: shutdown in search of a rationale and they found a rassial.

1206
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 2: Yeah it was, And they succeeded in elevating the conversation

1207
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 2: about healthcare they have not succeeded up to this point

1208
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 2: and being able to drive a consistent, clear message about healthcare.

1209
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 2: So they did that Trump's numbers came down significantly, whether

1210
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 2: you know, that's a function of the healthcare conversation, you know,

1211
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 2: images of the east wing getting demolished, whatever it was,

1212
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 2: you know it. You know, part of the reason the

1213
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 2: east wing conversation was so salient was that we're in

1214
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:46,120
Speaker 2: the middle of a shutdown and he's out here building

1215
01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 2: a ballroom. You know. So they really did a great

1216
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 2: job driving a message, setting them on their terms. You know,

1217
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 2: I think a lot. I think a lot about the

1218
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 2: fall of twenty eleven, where Democrats came off a really

1219
01:05:57,160 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 2: tough summer, you know, coming off bad intermin in the

1220
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 2: first place, the whole debt ceiling, you know, debate in

1221
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 2: twenty eleven got our butts handed to us. But then

1222
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 2: we were able to fall to shift the conversation more

1223
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 2: towards our terms by shifting the focus to what we

1224
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 2: call the Jobs Act at the time, you know, which

1225
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 2: was just a bill we put together out of the

1226
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:19,080
Speaker 2: most popular policies, was never really going to pass. But

1227
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 2: you know, President Obama did a speech to the Joint

1228
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 2: Session of Congress, you know, and we put that bill

1229
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 2: on the floor and made Republicans vote on it again

1230
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 2: and again and We didn't pass it, but it got

1231
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 2: us back on our front foot going into twenty twelve,

1232
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:32,920
Speaker 2: and we were able to sort of take that momentum

1233
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,440
Speaker 2: going into twenty twelve. So I hope that you know,

1234
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 2: the legitimate anger the Democrats are feeling right now because

1235
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 2: I think they were fed some false expectations. You know,

1236
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:44,439
Speaker 2: we should be able to move on and say, look,

1237
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 2: we take the good here, which was driving the conversation

1238
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,920
Speaker 2: about healthcare, getting the conversation back on our terms, and

1239
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 2: play that forward into the midterms.

1240
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting they hold THEMS in disarray, you know,

1241
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 1: the fund meme that gets put around, and I think

1242
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:00,560
Speaker 1: about the fractures that were you know, you sort of

1243
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 1: it's like watching, you know, a fault line start to

1244
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:06,440
Speaker 1: start to crack, and you see the the ones on

1245
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:07,919
Speaker 1: the left, and you see the ones on the right.

1246
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 1: The divide on the left right now is not it's

1247
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 1: really just tactical. This is not. What's interesting is is

1248
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 1: you know, you you talked about the word cloud of

1249
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:22,400
Speaker 1: mom Dannie. You probably could have applied that to Spamburger

1250
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: and and Cheryl right and and they both you know,

1251
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: as far as messaging, we're talking about the same issues

1252
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 1: they may have, they may have leaned in different ways,

1253
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:34,960
Speaker 1: they may have talked to different constituencies, but they were

1254
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 1: always on the affordability message. So like, this is one

1255
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 1: of those cases where it's like democat, you guys are

1256
01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 1: all rowing in the same direction and you still want to.

1257
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 2: Fight right like this we find it out like what's

1258
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,200
Speaker 2: the line Jurassic Park? You know life, Life finds a way, right,

1259
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 2: Disarray finds a way with Democrats.

1260
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 1: But the big tact I always say, the biggest I

1261
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 1: think the biggest divide right now on the left is

1262
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:00,920
Speaker 1: do you start to look pa Trump or do you

1263
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 1: continue to fight Trump? And I think it is an

1264
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: either or conversation, even though some might argue no, you've

1265
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:10,960
Speaker 1: got to do both. There are entities that should be

1266
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:13,880
Speaker 1: thinking about fighting Trump. Like that's what I expect my

1267
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 1: ACLU to do, and that's what I expect. You know,

1268
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 1: where the hell are the good trial lawyers around? Like,

1269
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 1: you know, ultimately I expect the courts to be doing that, right,

1270
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:27,639
Speaker 1: I expect the elected officials to be thinking about, Okay,

1271
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: what's next? Right where I have a feeling I know

1272
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,599
Speaker 1: where you are, but I assume you're on the side

1273
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 1: of it's about thinking of the post Trump.

1274
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I mean, that's why that's why I

1275
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 2: created Searchlight, you know, I mean, that is what we're

1276
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:44,280
Speaker 2: trying to do here, is to craft a vision that

1277
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 2: will get people excited about the prospect of democratic governance again.

1278
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:50,719
Speaker 2: And we're going to go big on how we're thinking

1279
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:52,920
Speaker 2: about that. But I think you know, look, I think

1280
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:54,800
Speaker 2: there's also a little bit of a difference between a

1281
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,360
Speaker 2: mid term election and a presidential election. And so for me,

1282
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 2: my formative elections were two thousand and six in two

1283
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 2: thousand and eight, and Democrats did a good enough job

1284
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:08,320
Speaker 2: in two thousand and six of putting forward a positive vision.

1285
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 2: They had this six roh six agenda that focused on

1286
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:13,559
Speaker 2: you know, we were the original drain the swamp. I mean,

1287
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:17,320
Speaker 2: we wanted after Mark Foley was a really salient issue

1288
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 2: that year, hugely salient. I mean, you know, so every

1289
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 2: opportunity to make corruption salient again. This year, we had

1290
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:30,240
Speaker 2: ideas about you know, getting out of iraqs, minimum wage

1291
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 2: and ethics reform, and then you know that was and

1292
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:36,479
Speaker 2: that was solid, right, I mean, because you have to

1293
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 2: have something that every Democrat in every corner of the

1294
01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 2: country can can run on.

1295
01:09:40,640 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 1: And you guys are running in tough states. I mean

1296
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:46,760
Speaker 1: think about six, I mean the six pickups to get

1297
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:49,760
Speaker 1: they needed six Senate seat's less more than what it

1298
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:53,759
Speaker 1: is for this cycle. And you had to win in Montana. Virginia.

1299
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:55,800
Speaker 1: Was a big deal at the time because that was

1300
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 1: the tough tad of a sitting Republican senator that many

1301
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:03,120
Speaker 1: thought was going to be a presidential candidate until he

1302
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:05,800
Speaker 1: sort of his own words, got in, got him, got

1303
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 1: him in trouble, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Missouri, Right, like, think of

1304
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 1: the the antenna that was Tester. Tester wins in six,

1305
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:19,760
Speaker 1: mccaskell is in O six. You have Casey winning in Pennsylvania.

1306
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 1: You had Shared Brown in Ohio, Jim Webb. Look at

1307
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,160
Speaker 1: all the people I'm describing all of them in the

1308
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:27,760
Speaker 1: economic populist category.

1309
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. Jim Webb was very culturally conservative on

1310
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:32,400
Speaker 2: a lot of issues, but was was was a committed

1311
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:37,600
Speaker 2: economic populist, you know, and John Tester, Claire mccaskell, you

1312
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 2: know the same. And I remember that was you know

1313
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:43,200
Speaker 2: when when mccaskell won, you know, at his watch party,

1314
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:45,640
Speaker 2: read got down and kissed, kissed the television because I

1315
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:46,840
Speaker 2: think she was the one who put us over. Although

1316
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 2: actually think the Virginia election, I think.

1317
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:51,200
Speaker 1: Because it was late counting. I was on the air

1318
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 1: for that, like literally called people about Fairfax County. How

1319
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:55,760
Speaker 1: much more is coming in?

1320
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, But that's the thing is it was defied expectations.

1321
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:01,840
Speaker 2: You know, the pundits did not expect us to take

1322
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 2: back the Senate. I think the House was expected, although

1323
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 2: I think the margin was higher than what people predicted,

1324
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 2: but the Senate was considered a reach at best. And

1325
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 2: so that's but that's where we find ourselves again here

1326
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:15,679
Speaker 2: and so for me, the litmus test for success though

1327
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty six really should be do we take

1328
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 2: back the Senate? Because you have to push yourself through there? Yeah,

1329
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:24,200
Speaker 2: because look in the cycles where the you know, the

1330
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:26,799
Speaker 2: cycles are, you know, a lot of it is determined

1331
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 2: by the fundamentals. The Senate is a gnarly beast because

1332
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,679
Speaker 2: you only it's resistant to big swings because you only

1333
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:34,760
Speaker 2: have a third of the chamber up for reelection at

1334
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:38,120
Speaker 2: any election, whereas you know, everybody in the House is

1335
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:40,680
Speaker 2: every seat in the House is up. So what you've

1336
01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 2: got to do is you really got to maximize your

1337
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 2: gains in the cycles where the fundamentals are in your favor,

1338
01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:49,760
Speaker 2: and for us, that maximizing our gains would would look like,

1339
01:11:50,160 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 2: you know, winning holding all the seats where we have

1340
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:55,400
Speaker 2: incumbents up and then winning you know, all of the

1341
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 2: swing states and then throwing in someones that are reaches

1342
01:11:58,360 --> 01:11:58,920
Speaker 2: for us, like.

1343
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:00,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I look at the you know the path,

1344
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:02,880
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, North Carolina, Maine or quick and

1345
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: then you start going, oh boy, okay, you need Ohio

1346
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 1: to come in again, you probably need one of the

1347
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 1: following and then you need one of the following three Alaska, Iowa, Texas, right,

1348
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:15,639
Speaker 1: and then you don't want to be you know, then

1349
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 1: you got to sort of probably throwing a couple others

1350
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 1: like you did that six for oh six. There were

1351
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:24,559
Speaker 1: two other races that were top tier races in that

1352
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 1: last month of the campaign. One was Harold Fords Tennessee

1353
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 1: race against that that was a Ford corker, was a

1354
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:33,599
Speaker 1: competitive race. And then you had I think Jim Peterson

1355
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,080
Speaker 1: in Arizona. If I remember that, Kyle, that's.

1356
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:37,599
Speaker 2: Right, And I mean you look you know, so yeah,

1357
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:42,880
Speaker 2: you know, we look, Ohio, Iowa, Alaska. We have held

1358
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 2: Senate seats in all three of those states. Within the

1359
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 2: last ten years, we should be able to win there again.

1360
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:50,320
Speaker 2: And then yeah, you've got it. You've got to reach

1361
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 2: in a place like Texas. That's how you put together

1362
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:56,519
Speaker 2: Senate majorities, you know. And what's crazy is that even.

1363
01:12:56,320 --> 01:12:58,840
Speaker 1: That argued Kansas and Mississippi to be on the mat

1364
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 1: You look at those two, they're both there are what

1365
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:07,559
Speaker 1: I call green shoots for Democrats in both of those states,

1366
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:09,599
Speaker 1: but they need some work, Like you've got to actually

1367
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 1: tend that guard.

1368
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:12,680
Speaker 2: Ye had a democratic government, Cathleen's we have currently have

1369
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:15,400
Speaker 2: a democratic governor, you know. I mean, the Democrats can

1370
01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 2: win in these states.

1371
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:19,000
Speaker 1: Sixteen to the last twenty four years in Kansas has

1372
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 1: been that's right, that's right.

1373
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:22,720
Speaker 2: Talk about economic populism. I mean, that's the home of

1374
01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:29,639
Speaker 2: prairie populism. And yeah, exactly. And so it's really a choice,

1375
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, Democrats can simply choose tomorrow to

1376
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:36,719
Speaker 2: start running on a mix of issues that can appeal

1377
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,760
Speaker 2: to folks in those states, the way that Trump just

1378
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 2: simply decided to throw core tenants of Republican orthodoxy out

1379
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 2: out the window. And you know, again that doesn't mean

1380
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:48,519
Speaker 2: that the entire party has to shift its position on

1381
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 2: some of these cultural issues. It just means we have

1382
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:53,920
Speaker 2: to embrace people who are going to have different views

1383
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 2: than us because they're the only ones who can win

1384
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:57,680
Speaker 2: in states like that.

1385
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:03,679
Speaker 1: How do you think the unofficial presidential campaign presidential candidates

1386
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 1: are doing right now in moving message? Because I look

1387
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 1: at a guy like Gavin Newsom, who, on one hand,

1388
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:12,000
Speaker 1: it's impressive to me how much the bases embraced him

1389
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 1: and that they love the fact that he's fighting. But

1390
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:17,879
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, he's introduced himself as

1391
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:20,639
Speaker 1: one of the great d n C chairs of all time,

1392
01:14:20,920 --> 01:14:23,679
Speaker 1: right like he is, meaning like he's attacked, he's he's

1393
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 1: he's winning on tactics. It's not as if there's some

1394
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 1: great policy proposal that is just taking the world by storm.

1395
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:37,600
Speaker 1: So I'm a skeptic that this holds for him right that,

1396
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 1: because this is a process moment. Let's a policy moment.

1397
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,120
Speaker 1: But in general, how would you you know I had Bashir,

1398
01:14:44,240 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 1: I've done, interviewed Pher, I've seen we've got the rom

1399
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:50,120
Speaker 1: stump speech. I've got to be interviewing by the time

1400
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 1: this hits well, I've interviewed Wes Moore at Texas the

1401
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:57,120
Speaker 1: Texas Tribune Festival. What what do you think so far

1402
01:14:57,280 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: of the of the field and how they've tried to

1403
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 1: communicate about twenty.

1404
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 2: Eight Yeah, I mean we are we are a wash

1405
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,160
Speaker 2: in raw talent, and it's it's gonna take. But I

1406
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:10,600
Speaker 2: think there's still very powerful forces pushing our candidates to

1407
01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 2: stay firmly inside that liberal box, you know. And so

1408
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 2: and it is true that the sort of there's gonna

1409
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:19,280
Speaker 2: be sort of a you're gonna have to marry two

1410
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:22,920
Speaker 2: things together, I think to get the right candidate here,

1411
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 2: and that's marrying the aggressive, you know, taking the fight

1412
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:30,599
Speaker 2: to Trump and the Republicans, that pugnacity that you see

1413
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:33,400
Speaker 2: in someone like Gavin Newsom, that's why he's he's sort

1414
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 2: of risen to the top of the conversation in a

1415
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:38,880
Speaker 2: lot of places. But you're gonna have to marry that

1416
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:42,559
Speaker 2: pugnacity with an issue mix that can appeal to a

1417
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:47,120
Speaker 2: broad swath of Americans. And so right now, you know,

1418
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 2: I think there's some more of sort of tinkering around

1419
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 2: the edges there. You know, you look at at a

1420
01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:54,799
Speaker 2: Josh Shapiro, who is who's sort of you know, defying

1421
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:57,800
Speaker 2: the left wing of the party on some issues. But

1422
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:01,599
Speaker 2: I think I think we're gonna need somebody to go further,

1423
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 2: you know, if we're going to talk about a supermajority,

1424
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:06,640
Speaker 2: and I you know, look, you could eke buy. You know,

1425
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:09,200
Speaker 2: in a polarized nation, every election's a coin flip, right,

1426
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:10,960
Speaker 2: you could you could get to seventy. You may even

1427
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:13,479
Speaker 2: get to fifty in the Senate. But but that is

1428
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 2: a recipe for you know, whiplash.

1429
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:19,280
Speaker 1: Biden didn't get to govern very well, didn't He had

1430
01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 1: all three, but he barely had all He barely had

1431
01:16:22,080 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 1: the trifecta.

1432
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 2: You lose it, you probably lose.

1433
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:27,400
Speaker 1: I think we could have the trifecta. Yeah, I think

1434
01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:30,040
Speaker 1: I managed it. From the White House perspective.

1435
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 2: I agree. And I think even if you're lucky to

1436
01:16:32,479 --> 01:16:35,759
Speaker 2: have the trifecta, you probably lose it in the first midterm,

1437
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:38,400
Speaker 2: you know, and then and then you're stuck. And so

1438
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:41,200
Speaker 2: I think, you know, what I see as a super

1439
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:44,599
Speaker 2: majority is having a durable governing majority that sustains itself

1440
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:46,960
Speaker 2: at least through a few election cycles, that you can

1441
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:50,599
Speaker 2: actually pass a robust agenda. Most of what Biden has

1442
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:53,760
Speaker 2: passed has already been undone with Republicans. But this has

1443
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:57,920
Speaker 2: already been undone by Republicans, you know it. At best,

1444
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 2: your accomplishments are extremely fragile. They don't last, they're quickly repealed,

1445
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 2: and then the other side comes in and does the

1446
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 2: same thing, and then we're stuck in this this back

1447
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:09,080
Speaker 2: and forth. So I think that the time is right

1448
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:12,000
Speaker 2: right now for one side or the other to craft

1449
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 2: the supermajority appeal that can actually build a governing coalition

1450
01:17:15,439 --> 01:17:17,920
Speaker 2: that can sustain you in power. You know, beyond just

1451
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:19,599
Speaker 2: one one two year period.

1452
01:17:26,479 --> 01:17:30,200
Speaker 1: Do you worry about a insurgent third party or independent?

1453
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 1: And do you worry that? You know, I look at

1454
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:35,360
Speaker 1: it as somebody who's always dabbled, And my first professional

1455
01:17:35,479 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 1: year covering politics was the year of rouss Perrot, So

1456
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:40,720
Speaker 1: you know, when you get introduced to politics that way,

1457
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:42,760
Speaker 1: and how crazy it shook up the map and it

1458
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:46,360
Speaker 1: shook up ideologies and it really I've always thought that

1459
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:51,240
Speaker 1: the Paro Paro's third party candidacy was extraordinarily successful because

1460
01:17:51,240 --> 01:17:53,920
Speaker 1: he made both parties change who they were, you know,

1461
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:56,320
Speaker 1: he made the Democrats a bit more sensitive on fiscal issues,

1462
01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:59,120
Speaker 1: made the Republicans a bit more sensitive on trade issues. Hey,

1463
01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 1: that's that's to me, that's an accomplishment, right. That was

1464
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:05,519
Speaker 1: in theory originally why ross Pero got it right, he

1465
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:07,559
Speaker 1: was trying. He thought, Hey, these guys don't know what

1466
01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:13,360
Speaker 1: any in those two issues. He accomplished a lot. We're

1467
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:15,519
Speaker 1: in a moment. There is a vacuum, right, you see,

1468
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 1: sometimes it's simply a vacuum in a place like Nebraska,

1469
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 1: South Dakota, or Idaho. And I single those guys out

1470
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:23,760
Speaker 1: because I've interviewed all of them. There. There are a

1471
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 1: bunch of really strong candidates running as economic populists who've

1472
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:31,880
Speaker 1: chosen to run as independence instead of Democrats, and they

1473
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:34,400
Speaker 1: just simply all. I had two of them on together

1474
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:36,280
Speaker 1: and they said, it's simply so they can have a

1475
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 1: conversation with local voters, like they agree with the agenda.

1476
01:18:39,439 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 1: But if the minute they find out they're a Democrat,

1477
01:18:41,360 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 1: then they don't want to like they won't. It's like

1478
01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:45,920
Speaker 1: they close their ears, so they're trying to open their ears.

1479
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:48,240
Speaker 1: Do you worry that there's a vacuum out there that

1480
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:51,280
Speaker 1: can be filled by a non democratic entity?

1481
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:54,240
Speaker 2: Oh, I one hundred percent worry that there's a vacuum,

1482
01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:56,720
Speaker 2: and I think it's incumbent on the party to close it,

1483
01:18:56,800 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 2: you know, and if they don't do that, then yeah,

1484
01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:01,599
Speaker 2: they leave themselves very It is a it's a regular,

1485
01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:03,680
Speaker 2: you know, not a not every election, but you know,

1486
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:06,559
Speaker 2: every once a generation or so, an independent candidate comes

1487
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:10,080
Speaker 2: along and identifies the sort of the ways in which

1488
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:12,400
Speaker 2: neither side is meeting the demands of the American people.

1489
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 2: Nineteen sixty eight, George Wallace, You know, he did, and

1490
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:18,200
Speaker 2: that caused you Nixon was sort of running on a

1491
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:20,040
Speaker 2: light southern strategy in sixty eight and.

1492
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:24,240
Speaker 1: Then probably wins by a bigger margin without Wallace, I think, right,

1493
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:27,000
Speaker 1: but I don't think that's yeah, that's probably that's probably right.

1494
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:28,600
Speaker 2: But then he sort of, you know, just I mean this,

1495
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:30,519
Speaker 2: I don't see this is a good thing being a liberal.

1496
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:33,200
Speaker 2: But then he know, decided to close off that that.

1497
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:34,720
Speaker 1: He didn't let that, but he wasn't going to let

1498
01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:36,679
Speaker 1: that happen to him a second time exactly.

1499
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:39,320
Speaker 2: And then Reagan sort of refined that approached and you know, so,

1500
01:19:39,360 --> 01:19:41,519
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I think that, you know, it's

1501
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:44,000
Speaker 2: it's sort of a market feature of if if neither

1502
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:47,120
Speaker 2: side is meeting the demand then you know someone's going

1503
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 2: to step in. They won't win, I don't think, but

1504
01:19:50,560 --> 01:19:54,040
Speaker 2: they can certainly, you know, cause Democrats to lose. And

1505
01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:56,439
Speaker 2: so it really is incumbent on Democrats to take it

1506
01:19:56,520 --> 01:19:59,720
Speaker 2: upon themselves to craft a broader appeal to sort of

1507
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 2: pre the possibility of getting, you know, having an end

1508
01:20:03,360 --> 01:20:05,040
Speaker 2: run around them by an independent candidate.

1509
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:07,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about the Senate. You wrote a book

1510
01:20:07,960 --> 01:20:14,519
Speaker 1: about it, you know, and and the filibuster. You know,

1511
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 1: one of the things the philibuster that I always want

1512
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:19,840
Speaker 1: to take a little time to educate people. It is

1513
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:23,720
Speaker 1: not in the constitution. The philibuster is a choice, right,

1514
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:31,880
Speaker 1: its Senate rules, right, that's right. There is the mythology

1515
01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:34,920
Speaker 1: that you know I grew up with, certainly was mister Smith, right,

1516
01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:39,640
Speaker 1: the famous Jimmy Stewart movie of the fifties, and it

1517
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:43,559
Speaker 1: sort of celebrated the idea that one senator can sort

1518
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:47,880
Speaker 1: of stand up. So give me the ideal. What's your

1519
01:20:47,920 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 1: ideal of I assume you still embrace the ideal that

1520
01:20:51,880 --> 01:20:54,559
Speaker 1: a a senator should feel as if that they can

1521
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:58,080
Speaker 1: do that if they so choose to. How should that

1522
01:20:58,160 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 1: work and how should we be using it as a

1523
01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:01,639
Speaker 1: governing tool in your mind.

1524
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That. That's the thing is that people think

1525
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 2: when they think of the filibuster, if they think about

1526
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:08,639
Speaker 2: it at all, they think of they think of Jimmy Stewart, right,

1527
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:10,920
Speaker 2: But that's not how it works.

1528
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:13,759
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm hopeful actually that most of the people

1529
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:17,040
Speaker 1: that are listening to this podcast are younger than I

1530
01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:19,320
Speaker 1: am and probably are like, who the hell is Jimmy Stewart.

1531
01:21:19,360 --> 01:21:21,760
Speaker 2: Yeah that's true, but but I think that. But still,

1532
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:23,920
Speaker 2: the idea of, you know, of somebody standing up and

1533
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:28,000
Speaker 2: talking is what people think of, right, And that's just

1534
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:30,360
Speaker 2: not how it works anymore. You know. What's happened is

1535
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:33,960
Speaker 2: it's become a sort of a quiet, you know, passive filibuster,

1536
01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:37,839
Speaker 2: where any veto it's pocket veto. I mean you literally

1537
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:40,639
Speaker 2: have your staff call the cloak room and say I object.

1538
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:42,840
Speaker 2: You know, that's it, and nobody has to do to

1539
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:44,320
Speaker 2: show up to the floor. They don't have to say

1540
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:48,000
Speaker 2: a word. And then that automatically raises the threshold for

1541
01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:50,720
Speaker 2: procedural reasons that will borrow your readers to tears to

1542
01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:53,160
Speaker 2: sixty votes. And I think what's important to understand is

1543
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:56,080
Speaker 2: that you know, according for the first two hundred years

1544
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:57,720
Speaker 2: of its existence, from the from the time it was

1545
01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:00,680
Speaker 2: conceived of the Framers until you know, about century in

1546
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 2: the twentieth century, the Senate was a majority rule institution.

1547
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:06,200
Speaker 2: It was it was intended to be that way, and

1548
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:08,920
Speaker 2: the Framers, it wasn't an accident. They thought very hard

1549
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 2: about whether there should be a super majority requirement in

1550
01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:15,200
Speaker 2: Senate rules, and they decided against it. And the reason

1551
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:17,559
Speaker 2: they decided against it was because they had just had

1552
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:20,439
Speaker 2: experience with the Articles of Confederation, where there was a

1553
01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:23,559
Speaker 2: super majority threshold in the legislature, and they put it there,

1554
01:22:23,680 --> 01:22:26,520
Speaker 2: you know, on the theory that it would promote compromising consensus,

1555
01:22:27,080 --> 01:22:29,640
Speaker 2: when what happened in reality was that it empowered a

1556
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:32,400
Speaker 2: minority to be obstructionist and to grind things to the

1557
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 2: halt when they didn't get their way. And so the

1558
01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:37,040
Speaker 2: Framers saw that happen and said, okay, well, we're not

1559
01:22:37,080 --> 01:22:39,479
Speaker 2: doing that, you know, And so they designed the Senate

1560
01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:41,759
Speaker 2: to be different from the House in lots of other ways,

1561
01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:45,800
Speaker 2: by giving every state equal representation, by having senators serve

1562
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:47,439
Speaker 2: for six year terms so they can be a little

1563
01:22:47,479 --> 01:22:50,639
Speaker 2: bit less responsive to the whims of the moment staggering

1564
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:52,960
Speaker 2: those elections, like we talked about, you know, basically sort

1565
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:56,080
Speaker 2: of building in things that made it a more deliberate institution.

1566
01:22:57,400 --> 01:22:59,120
Speaker 2: But they were, and they wrote about it in the

1567
01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:01,519
Speaker 2: Federals papers. They debated the Concerts Convention. They said, we

1568
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:05,080
Speaker 2: are not putting in a majority a super majority threshold,

1569
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:08,640
Speaker 2: because that would allow and they said explicitly, because that

1570
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:11,240
Speaker 2: would allow a minority to obstruct, you know, when they

1571
01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:14,120
Speaker 2: didn't get their way. And so that's the that's the

1572
01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:16,759
Speaker 2: difference in the filibuster is that there should be unlimited debate.

1573
01:23:16,920 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 2: You should have the opportunity to stand and say your piece,

1574
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:22,760
Speaker 2: to join with other colleagues to keep a filibuster going

1575
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:25,360
Speaker 2: indefinitely if you want to. But you should have to

1576
01:23:25,360 --> 01:23:27,160
Speaker 2: put in the work. You know, you should not be

1577
01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:29,160
Speaker 2: able to do it passively. Why is it so hard

1578
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:34,080
Speaker 2: to sell, to sell that bipartisanly? That to me seems

1579
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:37,720
Speaker 2: the proper use of the filibuster. I agree, you know,

1580
01:23:37,840 --> 01:23:40,799
Speaker 2: it's it's it's it's just the sort of the proverb

1581
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:43,200
Speaker 2: of the frog being boiled in water, where you know,

1582
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:46,479
Speaker 2: the Senate never decided to have it be the way

1583
01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:50,160
Speaker 2: it is. It was a passive accumulation of one norm

1584
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:53,959
Speaker 2: being laid on another in layered form over several decades,

1585
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,080
Speaker 2: where basically when you're in the minority, you find this

1586
01:23:57,160 --> 01:23:59,920
Speaker 2: thing to be useful. But came up with the filibuster

1587
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:03,400
Speaker 2: happened what sometime after direct election of senators. Yeah, well

1588
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:07,599
Speaker 2: so in nineteen seventeen they when seventy of the amendment, right,

1589
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:10,200
Speaker 2: So when direct election happened, it was around the same

1590
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:12,759
Speaker 2: time during the progressive era. You know, there was this idea.

1591
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:15,719
Speaker 2: But what's really interesting about it is that the rule

1592
01:24:15,920 --> 01:24:20,280
Speaker 2: that today gets used to cause the super majority threshold

1593
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 2: was originally put in place to end filibusters.

1594
01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:28,479
Speaker 1: It's I don't want to get yeah, it's like it's

1595
01:24:28,520 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 1: like you're describing one of my favorite things. You know,

1596
01:24:31,120 --> 01:24:34,280
Speaker 1: a reform in one era turns into it a problem

1597
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:37,920
Speaker 1: in another. You know, the seniority system was actually instituted

1598
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:40,200
Speaker 1: in the House at the turn of the last century

1599
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:44,479
Speaker 1: because there were so many cronies that a speaker would

1600
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:46,479
Speaker 1: put into place, and they said, well, we can't have that.

1601
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:50,840
Speaker 1: So the seniority system was actually a reform that's right,

1602
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:52,800
Speaker 1: to improve representation.

1603
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:54,760
Speaker 2: So the super majority rule was, you know, put in

1604
01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:57,080
Speaker 2: place because if you had a talking filibuster that was

1605
01:24:57,120 --> 01:25:00,800
Speaker 2: going on for way too long, right you You said, okay, fine,

1606
01:25:00,800 --> 01:25:03,639
Speaker 2: you know what, We'll give you a tool to bring

1607
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:06,599
Speaker 2: that to an end. And that's if you know sixty

1608
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:08,400
Speaker 2: at the time it was three fits. It was three

1609
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 2: thirds or something, or at the time it was two thirds.

1610
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:13,760
Speaker 2: Now it's three fits. But they said, look, if three

1611
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:17,080
Speaker 2: fitts of the Senate can decide that, you know, mister

1612
01:25:17,120 --> 01:25:20,200
Speaker 2: Smith has talked too long, you know, presumably that's bringing

1613
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:22,879
Speaker 2: people together from both sides of the whatever issues being debated,

1614
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:25,320
Speaker 2: you can sort of say, okay, that's enough guy. Even

1615
01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:26,920
Speaker 2: then you still have like thirty hours, so you know,

1616
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:30,120
Speaker 2: in true Senate fashion, it wasn't moving that precipitously. But

1617
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:31,439
Speaker 2: but that was supposed to be able to say, okay,

1618
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:33,960
Speaker 2: that's gone on long enough, let's let's let's end it.

1619
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:36,839
Speaker 2: Let's move to a vote. Now what happens is because

1620
01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:39,400
Speaker 2: of the ease of implementing the filibuster, because you don't

1621
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:41,000
Speaker 2: have to go to the floor and you can just

1622
01:25:41,040 --> 01:25:43,599
Speaker 2: have your staff call the cloakroom. That's all it takes

1623
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 2: to do a filibuster. So there's no there's no you're

1624
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:49,760
Speaker 2: not putting any onus on the person blocking, but that

1625
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:53,680
Speaker 2: simple act of calling the cloakroom triggers that super majority requirement. Now,

1626
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:56,400
Speaker 2: so every time the Senate votes on the super majority,

1627
01:25:56,400 --> 01:25:59,080
Speaker 2: they're technically still ending a filibuster, even though there's nobody

1628
01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:01,479
Speaker 2: on the four filibuster. So it's completely a mutation of

1629
01:26:01,520 --> 01:26:04,000
Speaker 2: what the original rule was decided to do, and it's

1630
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:06,280
Speaker 2: just accumulated in this sort of like you know, accretion

1631
01:26:06,439 --> 01:26:10,400
Speaker 2: of layers of norms and made the sound of completely dysfunctional,

1632
01:26:10,640 --> 01:26:13,320
Speaker 2: just like the Framers predicted it would be if a

1633
01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:15,080
Speaker 2: supermajority requirement was put in place.

1634
01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:19,120
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the different like hacks that were

1635
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:24,320
Speaker 1: essentially created to avoid the filibuster reconciliation. I got a

1636
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:27,360
Speaker 1: fun viewer question back to my last episode about it,

1637
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:31,439
Speaker 1: and I said, well, it was correct me if I'm wrong.

1638
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:33,719
Speaker 1: It was a creation essentially of Robert byrd right.

1639
01:26:33,960 --> 01:26:37,080
Speaker 2: That's right, you know it was. It was sort of

1640
01:26:37,120 --> 01:26:40,439
Speaker 2: downstream of the sort of imperial presidency under Nixon, where

1641
01:26:40,479 --> 01:26:43,280
Speaker 2: you know, Nixon seized a bunch of powers to the

1642
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:46,840
Speaker 2: executive branch, and so in the post Watergate reaction against that,

1643
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:50,519
Speaker 2: they wanted to shift more power back to the legislative branch,

1644
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 2: and so they created this thing called budget reconciliation, where

1645
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:55,360
Speaker 2: you know, under the power of the purse, one of

1646
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:57,759
Speaker 2: the most important functions of Congress is to pass a budget.

1647
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:02,439
Speaker 2: And you know, if Congress gets you know, stuck on budget,

1648
01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:05,759
Speaker 2: that's an advoication of their powers. It shifts more powers

1649
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:08,599
Speaker 2: to the executive because Congress hasn't told the executive how

1650
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:10,679
Speaker 2: to spend the money. So they wanted to make sure

1651
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:15,040
Speaker 2: that budgets could not get stuck or blocked by a minority.

1652
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 2: So they created a separate pathway for anything related to

1653
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:20,720
Speaker 2: the budget, and they put in place strict rules where

1654
01:27:20,720 --> 01:27:23,320
Speaker 2: it said, you know, it has to meet these standards.

1655
01:27:23,320 --> 01:27:25,599
Speaker 2: But if it meets these standards and applies to the budget,

1656
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:29,120
Speaker 2: it has its own pathway where there's no supermajority requirement.

1657
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:32,360
Speaker 2: It's a straight fifty vote threshold all the way through.

1658
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:35,200
Speaker 2: But there is sort of almost a talking filibuster built

1659
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:38,320
Speaker 2: in of this thing called voterama, where you know, anybody

1660
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 2: can bring an amendment, and so before passage you'll have

1661
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:43,439
Speaker 2: these night you know, sessions that go all night where

1662
01:27:43,479 --> 01:27:46,519
Speaker 2: everybody's so you know, kind of they sort of tried

1663
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:50,599
Speaker 2: to recreate the original Senate, but only for issues related

1664
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:54,840
Speaker 2: to the budget. Those those criteria that determine what can

1665
01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:58,600
Speaker 2: pass along that pathway that's been expanded steadily over the

1666
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:01,800
Speaker 2: since the seventy when this was enacted to sort of,

1667
01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:04,120
Speaker 2: you know, expand the definition of what's allowed to pass

1668
01:28:04,160 --> 01:28:07,200
Speaker 2: through it. But even so, you know, anything that's not

1669
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:10,560
Speaker 2: economic and nature definitely can't pass through that pathway, and

1670
01:28:10,840 --> 01:28:12,639
Speaker 2: even a lot of things that are economic and nature,

1671
01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:14,080
Speaker 2: you know, still get kicked out.

1672
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:19,680
Speaker 1: I think the first Bush tax cuts were not reconciliation.

1673
01:28:19,840 --> 01:28:21,679
Speaker 1: I think he did that with sixty because I remember

1674
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:23,960
Speaker 1: him finding five Democratic senators.

1675
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:27,160
Speaker 2: I know, No, I think I think it was reconciliation

1676
01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:28,880
Speaker 2: he did, and both those things are true. He did.

1677
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:32,240
Speaker 2: Max Bockus supported those, some Democrats supported him, But I

1678
01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:34,920
Speaker 2: still think it was on the reconciliation. But with which,

1679
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:36,920
Speaker 2: by the way, is the way it used to happen,

1680
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:39,439
Speaker 2: which was that just because something passed, you know, along

1681
01:28:39,520 --> 01:28:42,320
Speaker 2: majority rule pathway, didn't make it party line, you know.

1682
01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:45,840
Speaker 2: I mean, look, medicare you know. So the things we

1683
01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:49,160
Speaker 2: think of as the greatest by partisan accomplishments generally happened

1684
01:28:49,240 --> 01:28:51,160
Speaker 2: during the period when the Senate was majority rule, and

1685
01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 2: what would happen is people would fight it tooth and nail.

1686
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:55,840
Speaker 2: But then as soon as it was clear that the

1687
01:28:55,880 --> 01:28:58,240
Speaker 2: majority had the votes, a bunch of people who were

1688
01:28:58,240 --> 01:29:00,519
Speaker 2: holding out for something would would then come on and say, okay,

1689
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:02,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to join on board anyways, on the way

1690
01:29:02,320 --> 01:29:02,679
Speaker 2: on the right.

1691
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:04,200
Speaker 1: I want to be on the right side of that boat.

1692
01:29:04,360 --> 01:29:05,040
Speaker 2: Sure that.

1693
01:29:05,439 --> 01:29:08,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, let's talk the judiciary, because this is where

1694
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:11,679
Speaker 1: I I I you know, there have been separate rules created,

1695
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:16,800
Speaker 1: and I kind of think everybody's gone the wrong direction, right,

1696
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:19,720
Speaker 1: Meaning if I read Federalist seventy eight, which is the

1697
01:29:19,800 --> 01:29:23,719
Speaker 1: Alexander Hamilton Federalist paper on the judiciary, it is pretty

1698
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:27,519
Speaker 1: clear that the description of the judiciary that the founders

1699
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:31,280
Speaker 1: intended was for what I call referees, so the least

1700
01:29:31,320 --> 01:29:34,840
Speaker 1: partisan individuals you could get in the least partisan way.

1701
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:35,040
Speaker 2: Right.

1702
01:29:35,080 --> 01:29:37,400
Speaker 1: That was the reason for the lifetime appointment. That was

1703
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:42,200
Speaker 1: But so to me, he didn't say there should be

1704
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:43,680
Speaker 1: and maybe you could make the argument, you know, he

1705
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:46,439
Speaker 1: should have said, you know, all federal judges should be

1706
01:29:46,439 --> 01:29:50,120
Speaker 1: super majorities. But that's where my head is at, Like

1707
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:53,240
Speaker 1: I don't trust the two parties anymore, and to the

1708
01:29:53,280 --> 01:29:57,320
Speaker 1: point of, with the way the judiciary works, would we

1709
01:29:57,439 --> 01:29:59,840
Speaker 1: be better off if if we didn't instead of lowering

1710
01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:03,439
Speaker 1: the threshold from sixty dowe to fifty, of raising the

1711
01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:07,120
Speaker 1: threshold from sixty to seventy five. And the reason I

1712
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:11,640
Speaker 1: have come down on this idea is looking at I

1713
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:15,479
Speaker 1: got to know somebody who worked in the Bush White

1714
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:19,320
Speaker 1: House Counsel's office in the first Bush forty three and

1715
01:30:19,360 --> 01:30:22,479
Speaker 1: they were the last Republican presidency under the sixty vote

1716
01:30:22,520 --> 01:30:25,400
Speaker 1: threshold right until Trump came in, and then it got lowered.

1717
01:30:25,479 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 1: He got to lower it, all got lowered, and he

1718
01:30:28,400 --> 01:30:32,559
Speaker 1: said they'd have nominated completely different people for federal judge

1719
01:30:32,560 --> 01:30:37,080
Speaker 1: ships if the threshold was fifty and not sixty. Much

1720
01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:43,320
Speaker 1: more ideological, much less you know. That to me was

1721
01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:46,360
Speaker 1: that is why I'm like, Yeah, this is why we

1722
01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:49,360
Speaker 1: shouldn't have lowered the threshold, because ultimately I want the

1723
01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:53,040
Speaker 1: least partisan people as my judge. I don't want partisan

1724
01:30:53,040 --> 01:30:56,479
Speaker 1: people as my judge. I know we're a long way

1725
01:30:56,479 --> 01:30:59,840
Speaker 1: away from us from a situation going back to that,

1726
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:02,960
Speaker 1: but why is that so difficult? How did we allow

1727
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:06,679
Speaker 1: the judicial? Why did we decide to politicize the judicial.

1728
01:31:07,280 --> 01:31:09,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think one hundred percent. See you

1729
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:12,240
Speaker 2: know where you're coming from on that. I think that

1730
01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:14,880
Speaker 2: you know, it is a bit cyclical, right, I mean, like,

1731
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:17,880
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of judges did used to be

1732
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:20,400
Speaker 2: pretty part of it. I mean, you know, the nineteen said, look,

1733
01:31:21,320 --> 01:31:23,639
Speaker 2: the nineteenth century judiciary general was corrupt.

1734
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, and there was a ton of a

1735
01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:29,360
Speaker 1: lot of corruption there. I'm not gonna I take your point.

1736
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:31,080
Speaker 2: Right right, So I think I think those things work

1737
01:31:31,120 --> 01:31:33,720
Speaker 2: in cycles. I think where I come down on this

1738
01:31:33,760 --> 01:31:39,400
Speaker 2: stuff is that it's really hard to you know, enforce

1739
01:31:40,479 --> 01:31:45,000
Speaker 2: good things like you know, good judgment, moderation by rule.

1740
01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:48,400
Speaker 2: It's just very hard. And that's when you run into

1741
01:31:48,439 --> 01:31:50,439
Speaker 2: this problem we were just talking about, of the rule,

1742
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:54,759
Speaker 2: you know, having unintended consequences. It's just if the nature

1743
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:57,720
Speaker 2: of the times is such that, you know, this is

1744
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:01,000
Speaker 2: what people are demanding, it's it's going to find a way.

1745
01:32:01,479 --> 01:32:05,360
Speaker 2: And I think that you know, you know, I'm not

1746
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:10,120
Speaker 2: a conservative by nature, so I feel, you know, slightly

1747
01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:11,800
Speaker 2: incoorporable saying this. But when you go back to the

1748
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:16,320
Speaker 2: framer's design, you know, I think I am an originalist

1749
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:19,439
Speaker 2: when it comes to the system designed, you know, and

1750
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:23,040
Speaker 2: this the system was designed to just not have a

1751
01:32:23,080 --> 01:32:28,040
Speaker 2: super majority threshold anywhere in the path from beginning to end.

1752
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:32,280
Speaker 1: The only thing that required a super majority, it was was.

1753
01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:35,080
Speaker 2: Was cast, social amendments, impeachment, you know, but they specified

1754
01:32:35,080 --> 01:32:37,559
Speaker 2: those in the Constitution, which just goes to show how

1755
01:32:37,560 --> 01:32:38,720
Speaker 2: they consider this to be.

1756
01:32:39,080 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 1: It's a very fair point. The fact that he didn't

1757
01:32:41,400 --> 01:32:44,120
Speaker 1: argue for it, you know, he certainly argued. He argued

1758
01:32:44,160 --> 01:32:48,840
Speaker 1: hard against judicial elections, which to me tells you that

1759
01:32:48,880 --> 01:32:51,120
Speaker 1: what I mean, you want to talk about corrupt, Those

1760
01:32:51,160 --> 01:32:54,439
Speaker 1: state supreme court partisan races, to me are just ter

1761
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:58,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I think they just the mere existence of

1762
01:32:58,680 --> 01:33:00,599
Speaker 1: them under month rule of law.

1763
01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:02,240
Speaker 2: Well, and you're seeing more and more money start to

1764
01:33:02,240 --> 01:33:03,720
Speaker 2: flow to them too, you know. I mean, they're going

1765
01:33:03,800 --> 01:33:06,479
Speaker 2: to become just as political as any election. I think

1766
01:33:06,479 --> 01:33:08,800
Speaker 2: that's right. So I think it's it's just a tough

1767
01:33:08,840 --> 01:33:12,120
Speaker 2: thing to do by rule. And so, you know, there

1768
01:33:12,120 --> 01:33:14,559
Speaker 2: are many bad features of the times we live in.

1769
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:16,960
Speaker 2: I think, you know, sort of a return to the

1770
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:19,519
Speaker 2: basic features of our system that allow things to move

1771
01:33:19,560 --> 01:33:21,720
Speaker 2: and allow our system to I think if you went

1772
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:24,839
Speaker 2: to seventy five, which you'd probably have is just massive

1773
01:33:24,880 --> 01:33:27,240
Speaker 2: judicial backlogs and seats not getting filled.

1774
01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:29,040
Speaker 1: Well, this gets to the whole chicken and egg thing.

1775
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:31,560
Speaker 1: Like we began earlier talking about the lack of ideological

1776
01:33:31,560 --> 01:33:34,719
Speaker 1: diversity in the two parties. When we had ideological diversity

1777
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:37,960
Speaker 1: in the two parties, we regularly had these sixty and

1778
01:33:38,040 --> 01:33:42,639
Speaker 1: seventy vote confirmations because there was this ideological diversity as

1779
01:33:42,640 --> 01:33:47,040
Speaker 1: we polarized ourselves right as you know, the embedding of

1780
01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:49,280
Speaker 1: red and blue right, which you know, we could make

1781
01:33:49,320 --> 01:33:51,200
Speaker 1: an argument it began in two thousand. I sort of

1782
01:33:51,760 --> 01:33:54,280
Speaker 1: think now in hindsight, it began with the fallow of

1783
01:33:54,320 --> 01:33:58,800
Speaker 1: the Berlin Wall. That that's when both parties bases, you know,

1784
01:33:58,880 --> 01:34:03,040
Speaker 1: got reanimated again. We're like, okay, cold War's over. We

1785
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:06,040
Speaker 1: can't be told to sit sit quietly in the corner anymore.

1786
01:34:06,200 --> 01:34:11,960
Speaker 1: We're coming right. But you know, that's the I guess

1787
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:15,120
Speaker 1: it is the better solution than open primaries, getting rid

1788
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 1: of all partisan primaries, and that then you then you

1789
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:20,280
Speaker 1: just get a different type of nominee.

1790
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:22,640
Speaker 2: I think that's I think that's I would be in

1791
01:34:22,640 --> 01:34:26,920
Speaker 2: favor of opening up primaries for sure, you know, and

1792
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:29,479
Speaker 2: I think that you know, you look at someone like

1793
01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:32,919
Speaker 2: would Bernie Sanders have won the twenty sixteen presidential nomination

1794
01:34:33,240 --> 01:34:35,120
Speaker 2: if their primary had been open, you know, it's or

1795
01:34:35,439 --> 01:34:37,559
Speaker 2: more primaries and along the way had been opened. Maybe

1796
01:34:37,680 --> 01:34:39,800
Speaker 2: they I think they argued that at the time. You know,

1797
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:42,439
Speaker 2: he's interesting because you could say he's ideological. But also

1798
01:34:42,520 --> 01:34:46,080
Speaker 2: he was sort of an underappreciated aspect of his twenty

1799
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:48,759
Speaker 2: sixteen campaign was that he was more moderate on cultural

1800
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:51,840
Speaker 2: issues than Hillary, and he was actually sort of presenting

1801
01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:54,599
Speaker 2: much more of that classic point. Remember how Hillary talking

1802
01:34:54,640 --> 01:34:58,080
Speaker 2: about attacked him, kept attacking him in sense, Yeah, attacking

1803
01:34:58,120 --> 01:34:59,800
Speaker 2: him from the left, not the right, that's right.

1804
01:35:00,160 --> 01:35:02,320
Speaker 1: You know, he had at.

1805
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:04,559
Speaker 2: Some point said the interest groups are the establishment. You know,

1806
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:06,400
Speaker 2: plan pared to all these groups. So I think that's

1807
01:35:07,000 --> 01:35:09,759
Speaker 2: I think you've opened the doorway for a more interesting

1808
01:35:09,840 --> 01:35:11,200
Speaker 2: mix of ideologies.

1809
01:35:11,200 --> 01:35:15,479
Speaker 1: If you did that, well that uh, let's land the

1810
01:35:15,479 --> 01:35:22,080
Speaker 1: plane this way. What do you plan? You know, do

1811
01:35:22,120 --> 01:35:25,000
Speaker 1: you see searchlight? On one hand, you want to you're

1812
01:35:25,040 --> 01:35:28,400
Speaker 1: going to be an incubator of policy ideas and also

1813
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:30,160
Speaker 1: an incubator of campaign tactics.

1814
01:35:31,320 --> 01:35:34,479
Speaker 2: Well, I think if we had a sort of campaign advice,

1815
01:35:34,520 --> 01:35:36,880
Speaker 2: it would be basically to be heterodox you know, I mean,

1816
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:38,759
Speaker 2: we would say which, and I think that's more powerful

1817
01:35:38,800 --> 01:35:41,839
Speaker 2: than any campaign tactic. We are, we are a political

1818
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:44,760
Speaker 2: culture that's a wash in. You know, this or that

1819
01:35:44,800 --> 01:35:46,840
Speaker 2: media strategy, this or that platform, and all those things

1820
01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:49,960
Speaker 2: are important, but fundamentally, the most powerful thing you can

1821
01:35:50,000 --> 01:35:52,720
Speaker 2: do is offer a different mix of issues to the

1822
01:35:52,760 --> 01:35:55,840
Speaker 2: American people. And so much else flows downstream from that.

1823
01:35:55,960 --> 01:35:59,560
Speaker 2: So our advice to candidates would be decide to be heterodox.

1824
01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:01,479
Speaker 2: You know, if you look through your issue positions, and

1825
01:36:01,560 --> 01:36:05,000
Speaker 2: every single position on that page on your website, you

1826
01:36:05,040 --> 01:36:08,600
Speaker 2: know is a rigidly ideological left wing position, then you know,

1827
01:36:08,640 --> 01:36:11,240
Speaker 2: if you're running in a competitive race, then you're probably

1828
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:14,519
Speaker 2: doing it wrong. So and listen, look and look in,

1829
01:36:15,080 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 2: Look to your beliefs, look to the people that you're

1830
01:36:17,680 --> 01:36:18,880
Speaker 2: seeking a represent.

1831
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:21,040
Speaker 1: This only works those issues you are right, Like, yeah,

1832
01:36:21,080 --> 01:36:23,959
Speaker 1: I look at Grand I look at the Grand Platner situation,

1833
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:27,640
Speaker 1: and you know how I look. I got my skepticism

1834
01:36:27,680 --> 01:36:32,160
Speaker 1: on the tattoo story. I will admit that, Like, you know,

1835
01:36:32,280 --> 01:36:34,240
Speaker 1: I think you put a permanent marking on your body.

1836
01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:37,599
Speaker 1: You're going to research what that is. But so look,

1837
01:36:37,640 --> 01:36:40,040
Speaker 1: that's me as a voter or as a as a

1838
01:36:40,080 --> 01:36:43,120
Speaker 1: consumer of this. But what do you make of his

1839
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:46,880
Speaker 1: staying power. What does that tell you about what you're

1840
01:36:47,240 --> 01:36:49,400
Speaker 1: what you're advising people to be.

1841
01:36:49,840 --> 01:36:52,000
Speaker 2: I think I think it's it's it says a lot.

1842
01:36:52,080 --> 01:36:53,920
Speaker 2: And I think that you know, he's he's a person

1843
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:57,519
Speaker 2: who served in the military, you know, and enlisted in

1844
01:36:57,560 --> 01:36:59,920
Speaker 2: a war that he says he didn't agree with. But

1845
01:37:00,000 --> 01:37:03,240
Speaker 2: I think that's a powerful story. He loves this guy

1846
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:05,040
Speaker 2: loves guns, you know, not just in the sort of

1847
01:37:05,200 --> 01:37:07,160
Speaker 2: carried a gun once way, but I mean, you know,

1848
01:37:07,439 --> 01:37:10,639
Speaker 2: that's that's a heterodoxy that fits the state of Maine.

1849
01:37:11,600 --> 01:37:15,320
Speaker 2: People are looking for authenticity. They're looking for that that

1850
01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:20,280
Speaker 2: desire to fight that, that authenticity being imperfect, having made mistakes,

1851
01:37:20,600 --> 01:37:22,720
Speaker 2: all that stuff. I think it's it's very powerful. And

1852
01:37:23,160 --> 01:37:25,519
Speaker 2: so far, the way voters in Maine are reacting to

1853
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:27,559
Speaker 2: those stories is to dismiss them or even to say

1854
01:37:27,560 --> 01:37:29,680
Speaker 2: that's making me back him even stronger. So I think

1855
01:37:29,720 --> 01:37:32,720
Speaker 2: that's a very powerful phenomenon that's going on right now.

1856
01:37:32,720 --> 01:37:35,160
Speaker 2: And his level of heterodoxy could win a state like Maine,

1857
01:37:35,160 --> 01:37:37,880
Speaker 2: which is, you know, pretty blue. If you're going to

1858
01:37:38,000 --> 01:37:40,800
Speaker 2: be running in a state like Iowa, Ohio or Nebraska.

1859
01:37:40,840 --> 01:37:42,680
Speaker 2: You know, you got to be even more heterodox. And

1860
01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:45,479
Speaker 2: that's the that's the advice I would give to candidates.

1861
01:37:46,240 --> 01:37:49,479
Speaker 1: And is this about finding how much of this is

1862
01:37:49,520 --> 01:37:51,760
Speaker 1: on the party seeking out those candidates and how much

1863
01:37:51,840 --> 01:37:55,080
Speaker 1: is it just simply more candidates need to not seek

1864
01:37:55,120 --> 01:37:57,760
Speaker 1: out the groups looking for I mean, you see this

1865
01:37:57,840 --> 01:38:00,920
Speaker 1: a lot where and I'm sorry, I think that I

1866
01:38:01,040 --> 01:38:04,400
Speaker 1: watch the committees do this, right, Well, if you don't

1867
01:38:04,400 --> 01:38:05,960
Speaker 1: do this, then we're not going to be able to

1868
01:38:06,080 --> 01:38:09,719
Speaker 1: bunge your general election. They sort of hold you hostage

1869
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:10,479
Speaker 1: on certain things.

1870
01:38:10,720 --> 01:38:12,400
Speaker 2: Oh one hundred percent. I mean people, you know, the

1871
01:38:12,479 --> 01:38:14,040
Speaker 2: questioning gas a lot is like, oh, these are just

1872
01:38:14,040 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 2: little nonprofits, you know, doing the best they can. And

1873
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:20,080
Speaker 2: that's that's in the post Citizens United world. These groups

1874
01:38:20,120 --> 01:38:23,120
Speaker 2: wield war chests of millions and millions of dollars, and

1875
01:38:23,479 --> 01:38:26,320
Speaker 2: in the primary, if you don't take their preferred positions,

1876
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:28,559
Speaker 2: they spend those millions of dollars against you and in

1877
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:30,719
Speaker 2: favor of your opponent. So it's still a lot of power.

1878
01:38:31,680 --> 01:38:34,960
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, it would be smart for

1879
01:38:34,960 --> 01:38:36,320
Speaker 2: the groups to get a little bit smarter in what

1880
01:38:36,320 --> 01:38:38,880
Speaker 2: they're asking people to do and make their asks more

1881
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:41,320
Speaker 2: about you know, can you beat the Republican then than

1882
01:38:41,479 --> 01:38:44,240
Speaker 2: you know, going through a purity test. But I think

1883
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:46,080
Speaker 2: candidates should, you know, if they're being asked to take

1884
01:38:46,120 --> 01:38:48,240
Speaker 2: crazy positions, they should just say no, and they should

1885
01:38:48,280 --> 01:38:49,880
Speaker 2: make they should be clear of the voters that they're

1886
01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:50,160
Speaker 2: saying no.

1887
01:38:50,240 --> 01:38:52,480
Speaker 1: I think would you no longer do questionnaires?

1888
01:38:53,720 --> 01:38:55,960
Speaker 2: A questionnaire with one question, which is the tell me

1889
01:38:56,000 --> 01:38:58,519
Speaker 2: why you can beat the Republican? That would be my FoST.

1890
01:38:58,320 --> 01:38:59,120
Speaker 1: That's just the questionnaire.

1891
01:38:59,240 --> 01:38:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

1892
01:39:00,479 --> 01:39:04,400
Speaker 1: Are you Can you imagine search Light funding a campaign

1893
01:39:04,479 --> 01:39:06,160
Speaker 1: for against a candidate in a primary.

1894
01:39:06,720 --> 01:39:09,800
Speaker 2: We are acumenical for now. I think what we want

1895
01:39:09,840 --> 01:39:11,200
Speaker 2: to do is just sort of put out the best

1896
01:39:11,240 --> 01:39:14,360
Speaker 2: ideas and approaches and hope that that, you know, people

1897
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:16,840
Speaker 2: adopt them. So that's that is our stance for the

1898
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:18,080
Speaker 2: time being. We'll see.

1899
01:39:18,439 --> 01:39:20,919
Speaker 1: Well, I love your marker for success in your mind.

1900
01:39:21,160 --> 01:39:23,519
Speaker 1: If Democrats don't win the Senate, they can't say they

1901
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:24,320
Speaker 1: won the midterms.

1902
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:25,880
Speaker 2: That is exactly what I think.

1903
01:39:27,040 --> 01:39:30,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a high bar, but guess what if you

1904
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 1: want to if you want to succeed, you got to

1905
01:39:32,320 --> 01:39:32,960
Speaker 1: go meet a high bar.

1906
01:39:33,080 --> 01:39:35,200
Speaker 2: You've done it before, you know, it's important name.

1907
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:38,960
Speaker 1: High anyway, Hey Adam, this was great. Uh. Look, you

1908
01:39:39,000 --> 01:39:41,320
Speaker 1: have a book out about the Senate. You talked in

1909
01:39:41,400 --> 01:39:43,320
Speaker 1: such detail. Why don't you want to tell people how

1910
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:44,000
Speaker 1: they can go by it?

1911
01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:49,080
Speaker 2: It's absolutely good. Kill Switch by by Me is available

1912
01:39:49,080 --> 01:39:50,880
Speaker 2: on Amazon and anywhere books are sold, So.

1913
01:39:51,479 --> 01:39:54,040
Speaker 1: Go check it out, check it search Light Foundation.

1914
01:39:55,200 --> 01:39:56,960
Speaker 2: It's about the Senate, but it's not boring. It's the

1915
01:39:56,960 --> 01:39:58,280
Speaker 2: best is the mind.

1916
01:39:58,280 --> 01:40:00,160
Speaker 1: Think you did a good job sort of talking the

1917
01:40:00,160 --> 01:40:03,280
Speaker 1: little history. I mean you you you sort of you

1918
01:40:03,360 --> 01:40:05,599
Speaker 1: scratched all the itches I was hoping you'd scratched during

1919
01:40:05,600 --> 01:40:08,960
Speaker 1: our conversation, which was talking about the founder's original intent

1920
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:13,479
Speaker 1: all this. And you've certainly been persuasive to me about

1921
01:40:13,520 --> 01:40:17,760
Speaker 1: the lack of mention of supermajorities in certain parts of

1922
01:40:17,800 --> 01:40:21,400
Speaker 1: the founders versus where they did intentionally bring up the

1923
01:40:21,439 --> 01:40:23,680
Speaker 1: decision super majorities. I think if you're going to be

1924
01:40:23,680 --> 01:40:26,000
Speaker 1: an originalist, you got to pay attention.

1925
01:40:25,760 --> 01:40:27,360
Speaker 2: To that as well. That's right, that's right.

1926
01:40:27,400 --> 01:40:36,439
Speaker 1: Well, thanks check Fran, good to see it. Well you

1927
01:40:36,520 --> 01:40:39,080
Speaker 1: heard Adam Jennison there. I do think the bar I

1928
01:40:39,120 --> 01:40:41,439
Speaker 1: think he makes a fair argument, and I think that

1929
01:40:42,760 --> 01:40:47,080
Speaker 1: you know, there's gonna be a lot of Democratic protectors

1930
01:40:47,080 --> 01:40:49,080
Speaker 1: of the Democratic brand who are going to tak that's

1931
01:40:49,080 --> 01:40:51,120
Speaker 1: not fair. This is too hard of a Senate map.

1932
01:40:51,479 --> 01:40:54,559
Speaker 1: But he's right if you can't say you won the

1933
01:40:54,600 --> 01:40:56,799
Speaker 1: midterms if you don't win both the House and the Senate.

1934
01:40:57,760 --> 01:41:00,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, the senate's hard, but they only need four seats.

1935
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:04,200
Speaker 1: In twenty oh six they needed six and they got

1936
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:08,280
Speaker 1: the six. So it's not like you know, this is

1937
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:12,120
Speaker 1: four is not an unreasonable number. So if you're truly

1938
01:41:12,160 --> 01:41:19,519
Speaker 1: winning the argument, you win the four seats. And you know,

1939
01:41:19,560 --> 01:41:21,840
Speaker 1: which is why if you're going to mess around with

1940
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:27,200
Speaker 1: the with the prediction markets, now's the time to buy

1941
01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:31,479
Speaker 1: shares in Democrats win the Senate because and then, to

1942
01:41:31,479 --> 01:41:35,240
Speaker 1: be frank, then you sell them sometime in mid October

1943
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:39,160
Speaker 1: and cash in your profits. So with that, let's take

1944
01:41:39,160 --> 01:41:43,880
Speaker 1: a few questions ask Chuck. First one comes from Max

1945
01:41:44,000 --> 01:41:47,080
Speaker 1: w from Alexandria here in the DMV sains. I've been

1946
01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:49,800
Speaker 1: a fan since before you hosted Meet the Press. Thank you,

1947
01:41:49,960 --> 01:41:51,760
Speaker 1: and I particularly enjoy your political analysis and how you

1948
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:54,719
Speaker 1: use American history. Explain what we are going through towards

1949
01:41:54,720 --> 01:41:57,000
Speaker 1: that end. Have you watched Death by Lightning? On Netflix.

1950
01:41:57,080 --> 01:41:59,559
Speaker 1: I am in the middle of it or not finished

1951
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:01,680
Speaker 1: Part one. It's four part series telling the story of

1952
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:04,280
Speaker 1: James Garfield's rise to the presidency after winning the nomination

1953
01:42:04,600 --> 01:42:06,880
Speaker 1: on the thirty six ballot at the Republican National Convention

1954
01:42:07,000 --> 01:42:09,679
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty and his assassination after only three months

1955
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:12,360
Speaker 1: in office. It's filled with political intrigu corruption, spoils, and

1956
01:42:12,439 --> 01:42:14,439
Speaker 1: patronage near the end of the nineteenth century. Right up

1957
01:42:14,439 --> 01:42:18,880
Speaker 1: your ally, Max, You're right, and I will sort of

1958
01:42:18,920 --> 01:42:21,240
Speaker 1: give you a little insight here. I've been obsessed with

1959
01:42:21,280 --> 01:42:26,639
Speaker 1: the Garfield story for a long time. Have a writing

1960
01:42:26,680 --> 01:42:30,759
Speaker 1: partner off and On by the name of Adam Pearlman,

1961
01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:36,760
Speaker 1: who has done some terrific work billions in particulars, and

1962
01:42:36,800 --> 01:42:40,200
Speaker 1: he and I have and I have a pilot script

1963
01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:45,000
Speaker 1: actually that we had once been working with a major

1964
01:42:45,040 --> 01:42:49,360
Speaker 1: production company and the Game of Throne guys bennyoffen Weisse

1965
01:42:50,160 --> 01:42:54,040
Speaker 1: got the Netflix deal and they ended up pitching a

1966
01:42:54,080 --> 01:42:57,439
Speaker 1: Netflix Garfield series. And let's just say they had a

1967
01:42:57,720 --> 01:43:00,320
Speaker 1: longer track record than my Adam and I did on this.

1968
01:43:02,160 --> 01:43:05,240
Speaker 1: I have watched episode one, I've enjoyed it. It is

1969
01:43:05,320 --> 01:43:07,960
Speaker 1: not the take I would have done, and I'm not

1970
01:43:08,240 --> 01:43:10,680
Speaker 1: This is not to be critical. I think they've made

1971
01:43:10,680 --> 01:43:14,160
Speaker 1: an interest, They've made some interesting decisions. I'm looking forward

1972
01:43:14,280 --> 01:43:16,720
Speaker 1: to where they go, and that is the beauty of

1973
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:20,200
Speaker 1: this story. I'm I'm obsessed with the period itself. Right,

1974
01:43:20,240 --> 01:43:25,240
Speaker 1: this was we were so close to getting reconstruction back.

1975
01:43:25,400 --> 01:43:29,080
Speaker 1: And I'm somebody who thinks a Garfield presidency. You know,

1976
01:43:29,120 --> 01:43:31,760
Speaker 1: the Garfield presidency got a civil service reform, which was

1977
01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:35,240
Speaker 1: not a small thing. Trump's actually trying to the Trump

1978
01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:37,320
Speaker 1: now is trying to undo some of the civil service

1979
01:43:37,360 --> 01:43:41,960
Speaker 1: reform that that Chester Arthur, who ends up the you know,

1980
01:43:42,280 --> 01:43:45,439
Speaker 1: a forced vice president on by the political machine in

1981
01:43:45,439 --> 01:43:50,280
Speaker 1: New York, ends up after the death of Garfield, sort

1982
01:43:50,320 --> 01:43:57,000
Speaker 1: of sees the light and stops being a cog in

1983
01:43:57,080 --> 01:44:02,439
Speaker 1: the Roscoe Conkling New York political machine and actually pledges

1984
01:44:02,479 --> 01:44:05,599
Speaker 1: to fulfill a Garfield presidency. But I think Garfield himself,

1985
01:44:05,600 --> 01:44:08,440
Speaker 1: had he lived, I think you might have seen reconstruction

1986
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:12,479
Speaker 1: come back. I think, you know, he he was. He's

1987
01:44:12,520 --> 01:44:16,599
Speaker 1: the closest thing we've had to sort of the out

1988
01:44:16,680 --> 01:44:19,679
Speaker 1: of nowhere president. Right. It's the you know, I've always

1989
01:44:19,680 --> 01:44:21,639
Speaker 1: said the mythology. I was telling this to my wife

1990
01:44:21,680 --> 01:44:23,000
Speaker 1: when we were watching and I said, you know, the

1991
01:44:23,280 --> 01:44:26,439
Speaker 1: the mythology that you know, the out of nowhere candidate

1992
01:44:26,479 --> 01:44:29,280
Speaker 1: can get the nomination with a speech. The reason the

1993
01:44:29,280 --> 01:44:33,040
Speaker 1: mythology existed with conventions is because that had happened once, right,

1994
01:44:33,160 --> 01:44:37,719
Speaker 1: James Garfield, right, his speech moved enough people to suddenly

1995
01:44:37,720 --> 01:44:41,760
Speaker 1: start considering him because of this sort of deadlock when

1996
01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:43,880
Speaker 1: it came to the grant side and the machines and

1997
01:44:43,880 --> 01:44:48,720
Speaker 1: all of this stuff. So, you know, Getteau and I

1998
01:44:48,760 --> 01:44:51,640
Speaker 1: think there I like how they're portraying Getteau because I

1999
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:54,840
Speaker 1: think he was mentally ill and sort of a guy

2000
01:44:54,880 --> 01:45:00,200
Speaker 1: with delusions of grandeur who clearly had a trouble upbring

2001
01:45:00,280 --> 01:45:02,880
Speaker 1: had a troubled relationship with his father. I mean, there's

2002
01:45:02,920 --> 01:45:05,880
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, not to play spoiler here,

2003
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:08,000
Speaker 1: but you know, Gato ends up trying to defend defends

2004
01:45:08,080 --> 01:45:11,960
Speaker 1: himself when the first real sort of feeding frenzied trial

2005
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:14,320
Speaker 1: of the century that the media was obsessed with was

2006
01:45:14,320 --> 01:45:17,439
Speaker 1: actually the trial and the Gettou trial, which began before

2007
01:45:17,479 --> 01:45:23,320
Speaker 1: Garfield died. Because Garfield's you know, Gettoau Getau, you could

2008
01:45:23,439 --> 01:45:28,360
Speaker 1: argue didn't kill Garfield. The doctors who didn't know what

2009
01:45:28,400 --> 01:45:32,000
Speaker 1: they were doing killed Garfield, right, they stuck there. There's

2010
01:45:32,040 --> 01:45:35,760
Speaker 1: a kind named doctor doctor and I haven't I don't

2011
01:45:35,800 --> 01:45:38,160
Speaker 1: know if they're going to portray him or not. But

2012
01:45:38,200 --> 01:45:40,840
Speaker 1: the guy's name really was doctor doctor. Like sometimes you

2013
01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:42,679
Speaker 1: just can't make it up right, it's going to sound

2014
01:45:42,720 --> 01:45:46,160
Speaker 1: like it's been fictionalized. But he didn't believe that you

2015
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:48,680
Speaker 1: had to wash your hands before you I mean, this

2016
01:45:48,840 --> 01:45:52,240
Speaker 1: was still like debated medical science. Do you do you

2017
01:45:52,360 --> 01:45:52,800
Speaker 1: do you do?

2018
01:45:53,640 --> 01:45:53,840
Speaker 2: You?

2019
01:45:53,880 --> 01:45:55,920
Speaker 1: Should you wash your hands? Do you need a sterile

2020
01:45:56,000 --> 01:45:59,479
Speaker 1: environment before you? You know? Which I know seems but

2021
01:45:59,520 --> 01:46:03,120
Speaker 1: it was a there was this was so called new medicine,

2022
01:46:03,280 --> 01:46:06,240
Speaker 1: new medical practices that was coming out of Europe, and

2023
01:46:06,320 --> 01:46:09,559
Speaker 1: it was a guy named doctor Lister, which if you're

2024
01:46:09,600 --> 01:46:13,400
Speaker 1: wondering if doctor Lister invented listerine, he did not, But

2025
01:46:13,439 --> 01:46:16,519
Speaker 1: doctor Lister was sort of the godfather of this sort

2026
01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:18,400
Speaker 1: of idea that you wash your hands and you need

2027
01:46:18,400 --> 01:46:21,599
Speaker 1: a sterile environment before as a doctor, before you give

2028
01:46:21,960 --> 01:46:25,760
Speaker 1: medical care. So Lister Reene was though named after you

2029
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:31,160
Speaker 1: know Lister, is that part? But no, the treatment, the

2030
01:46:31,240 --> 01:46:34,960
Speaker 1: attempt to save Garfield's life killed him. It's possible if

2031
01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:38,720
Speaker 1: nobody touched him. That he that he might have that

2032
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:40,640
Speaker 1: the bullet wouldn't have killed him, and he might have

2033
01:46:41,160 --> 01:46:44,240
Speaker 1: lived and recovered with the bullet in him, but the

2034
01:46:44,280 --> 01:46:49,720
Speaker 1: attempt to get the bullet out actually killed him. So

2035
01:46:50,520 --> 01:46:55,760
Speaker 1: but that's obviously stuff that you've scientifically figure out later,

2036
01:46:55,920 --> 01:46:59,280
Speaker 1: which in the moment we didn't have. But I am

2037
01:46:59,439 --> 01:47:03,720
Speaker 1: obsessed with the entire period. Again, it's interesting how they

2038
01:47:03,800 --> 01:47:06,639
Speaker 1: chose to sell it, which is, here's two guys you've

2039
01:47:06,640 --> 01:47:09,040
Speaker 1: never heard of or you've forgotten, who have been forgotten

2040
01:47:09,080 --> 01:47:11,400
Speaker 1: to history. One was the twentieth President of United States.

2041
01:47:11,800 --> 01:47:16,880
Speaker 1: It was It's an interesting choice. I get it. They're

2042
01:47:16,920 --> 01:47:24,160
Speaker 1: trying to mass appeal it, and I'm enjoying it. I

2043
01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:27,519
Speaker 1: fully will confess I would have had a slightly different way.

2044
01:47:27,560 --> 01:47:30,240
Speaker 1: I would have done it different way. I would have started.

2045
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:36,200
Speaker 1: Nothing wrong with what they did. And here's my goal.

2046
01:47:36,320 --> 01:47:39,479
Speaker 1: I want this to be successful enough that there is

2047
01:47:39,600 --> 01:47:43,920
Speaker 1: more appetite for more. I think Roscoe Conkling if you

2048
01:47:44,040 --> 01:47:45,800
Speaker 1: want to go and read about one of the most

2049
01:47:45,880 --> 01:47:48,439
Speaker 1: you know, the Mitch McConnell or Nancy Pelosi of their day,

2050
01:47:48,439 --> 01:47:50,880
Speaker 1: and I say both right. He was a congressional leader.

2051
01:47:51,080 --> 01:47:57,080
Speaker 1: Congressional leaders are both lionized and backroom transactionalists at the

2052
01:47:57,120 --> 01:47:59,880
Speaker 1: same time. And don't let anybody tell you that you

2053
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:02,439
Speaker 1: got to have the mix of both of them. Conkling

2054
01:48:02,560 --> 01:48:06,200
Speaker 1: was an interesting cat, and he's going to be portrayed

2055
01:48:06,240 --> 01:48:09,679
Speaker 1: sort of, I think a bit simply here. It's less

2056
01:48:09,680 --> 01:48:14,720
Speaker 1: simple than it is. But boy is he is he

2057
01:48:14,760 --> 01:48:19,760
Speaker 1: a character that if there really was a demand for

2058
01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:22,759
Speaker 1: more about this era, he could get his own mini series,

2059
01:48:23,200 --> 01:48:27,160
Speaker 1: Like you could really develop something just on him. He's

2060
01:48:27,200 --> 01:48:29,840
Speaker 1: that colorful of a character. And yes, the way they

2061
01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:33,160
Speaker 1: have him dressing, he was always for the day, dressing

2062
01:48:33,200 --> 01:48:36,880
Speaker 1: in brighter colors than everybody else. He was flamboyant man

2063
01:48:36,920 --> 01:48:43,360
Speaker 1: about town. I don't think he ever spent a night alone.

2064
01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:46,680
Speaker 1: So there's a it is. You are right, Max that

2065
01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:48,679
Speaker 1: it is up my alley. It was so up my alley.

2066
01:48:48,680 --> 01:48:51,320
Speaker 1: I wanted to make my own version of it, so there,

2067
01:48:51,920 --> 01:48:54,240
Speaker 1: all right, But kudos to those guys, and thank you

2068
01:48:54,320 --> 01:48:58,960
Speaker 1: Netflix for for green lighting a period piece like that.

2069
01:48:59,200 --> 01:49:04,880
Speaker 1: There's great history to be told through incredible storytelling, and

2070
01:49:04,920 --> 01:49:09,200
Speaker 1: I'd love to see more production companies support stuff like that.

2071
01:49:10,320 --> 01:49:14,040
Speaker 1: Next question comes from Stafford from downtown la Hey. I've

2072
01:49:14,080 --> 01:49:15,439
Speaker 1: been a fan since your days of Meet the Press,

2073
01:49:15,439 --> 01:49:17,360
Speaker 1: and I'm loving the new podcast. Before my question, I

2074
01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:19,600
Speaker 1: wanted to say that you appear to have done the impossible.

2075
01:49:19,840 --> 01:49:22,519
Speaker 1: You've gotten me interested in both professional and college football.

2076
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:24,679
Speaker 1: Having grown up a Chargers fan, I had largely washed

2077
01:49:24,680 --> 01:49:27,040
Speaker 1: my hands of the sport after nineteen ninety five. My

2078
01:49:27,120 --> 01:49:29,080
Speaker 1: question is this, can anything be done in the short

2079
01:49:29,120 --> 01:49:32,120
Speaker 1: to medium term about electricity costs? I'm a school teacher

2080
01:49:32,160 --> 01:49:34,240
Speaker 1: and my partner is a grad student at USC fight On.

2081
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:36,400
Speaker 1: We live in a one bedroom apartment in LA and

2082
01:49:36,439 --> 01:49:38,360
Speaker 1: while our incomes are enough to get by, it's starting

2083
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:40,280
Speaker 1: to pinch. I just opened our electric bill for a

2084
01:49:40,280 --> 01:49:42,840
Speaker 1: single month and it's easily fifty percent more than we

2085
01:49:42,840 --> 01:49:45,000
Speaker 1: were paying a couple of years ago. I know data

2086
01:49:45,000 --> 01:49:47,439
Speaker 1: centers are affecting energy prices, but is there more to it?

2087
01:49:47,560 --> 01:49:49,479
Speaker 1: Thanks for all the wonderful analysis and for making your

2088
01:49:49,479 --> 01:49:51,920
Speaker 1: episodes lengthy. I really get a lot of detail I

2089
01:49:51,920 --> 01:49:55,840
Speaker 1: can't get elsewhere. Sincerely, Stafford from downtown LA. How about

2090
01:49:55,840 --> 01:49:58,519
Speaker 1: that somebody thanking me for the length. I'm not going

2091
01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:00,519
Speaker 1: to go Joe Rogan on you. I must no three

2092
01:50:00,560 --> 01:50:04,240
Speaker 1: hour podcasts right. Simmons pushes the envelope in the two

2093
01:50:04,280 --> 01:50:06,599
Speaker 1: hour plus range. I'm going to still try to keep

2094
01:50:06,600 --> 01:50:09,920
Speaker 1: a one in front of that number on that front.

2095
01:50:10,960 --> 01:50:15,800
Speaker 1: So it's interesting with electricity, it's such a complicated thing.

2096
01:50:15,880 --> 01:50:18,280
Speaker 1: I was digging into this, and in fact, I'm going

2097
01:50:18,360 --> 01:50:20,559
Speaker 1: to be when you hear this, I'm going to be

2098
01:50:20,560 --> 01:50:26,000
Speaker 1: down in Austin, Texas, interviewing the governor of Maryland, Wes Moore,

2099
01:50:26,760 --> 01:50:30,479
Speaker 1: And I was talking with his staff about a few issues,

2100
01:50:30,520 --> 01:50:33,000
Speaker 1: and we were talking about electricity, and I said, you know,

2101
01:50:33,040 --> 01:50:35,040
Speaker 1: I was asking about the data center issue in Maryland

2102
01:50:35,040 --> 01:50:37,559
Speaker 1: and Maryland, doesn't you know Virginia is a data center state.

2103
01:50:37,560 --> 01:50:40,280
Speaker 1: And he was noting how you know, he says, Maryland's

2104
01:50:40,280 --> 01:50:43,080
Speaker 1: a transmission state. You know, a lot of electricity goes

2105
01:50:43,080 --> 01:50:45,479
Speaker 1: through our state and we pass it through. And you know,

2106
01:50:45,520 --> 01:50:49,519
Speaker 1: some states are elect energy producing and they add to

2107
01:50:49,560 --> 01:50:52,519
Speaker 1: the grid. Others only take from the grid, Others help,

2108
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:56,360
Speaker 1: you know, sort of the grid itself is a complicated thing.

2109
01:50:57,640 --> 01:51:01,200
Speaker 1: California has its own set of rules that only add

2110
01:51:01,280 --> 01:51:03,200
Speaker 1: to it. And it's it's one of those things that

2111
01:51:03,280 --> 01:51:12,000
Speaker 1: I think that you know, we're we're in this. You know,

2112
01:51:12,040 --> 01:51:16,760
Speaker 1: elect elect electric companies are are private companies, but they're

2113
01:51:16,800 --> 01:51:20,720
Speaker 1: but they have to get public approval for what they

2114
01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:26,200
Speaker 1: do and how they do it. And I think that

2115
01:51:26,280 --> 01:51:29,080
Speaker 1: we're about to see, especially with the data center, you know,

2116
01:51:29,240 --> 01:51:31,280
Speaker 1: obsession and drain, and it's a real issue in the

2117
01:51:31,320 --> 01:51:34,920
Speaker 1: state I live in Virginia because it is like Virginia

2118
01:51:35,000 --> 01:51:36,720
Speaker 1: is a huge got a bunch of data centers, and

2119
01:51:36,760 --> 01:51:39,880
Speaker 1: we have some of the highest spikes in electricity. So

2120
01:51:41,439 --> 01:51:43,120
Speaker 1: I think there's going to have to be some federal

2121
01:51:43,240 --> 01:51:46,400
Speaker 1: legislation here because I do think that you know, every

2122
01:51:46,479 --> 01:51:48,920
Speaker 1: state is set up to try to regulate itself, right

2123
01:51:48,920 --> 01:51:51,080
Speaker 1: You're you're in a you're in a state where where

2124
01:51:51,080 --> 01:51:53,519
Speaker 1: they're using a lot of air conditioning and there's always

2125
01:51:53,520 --> 01:51:56,799
Speaker 1: a high an a little more usage of energy, particularly

2126
01:51:56,840 --> 01:52:00,840
Speaker 1: in the southern part where you know, they're constantly having

2127
01:52:00,880 --> 01:52:06,280
Speaker 1: to regulate it, and it is done on a state basis,

2128
01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:08,640
Speaker 1: based on state usage. But if we're going to have

2129
01:52:08,720 --> 01:52:12,679
Speaker 1: more of these sort of drags on the grid coming

2130
01:52:12,720 --> 01:52:17,000
Speaker 1: from other states, and all of this is interconnected, so look,

2131
01:52:17,040 --> 01:52:19,960
Speaker 1: I think this is going to be I think the

2132
01:52:20,040 --> 01:52:24,320
Speaker 1: electric bill issue is going to be what the price

2133
01:52:24,320 --> 01:52:27,280
Speaker 1: of eggs were, right, and grocery bills were in twenty

2134
01:52:27,320 --> 01:52:30,320
Speaker 1: twenty four. You know that this is going to be

2135
01:52:31,520 --> 01:52:33,840
Speaker 1: the thing that everybody comes back to. We saw it

2136
01:52:33,840 --> 01:52:36,280
Speaker 1: in the New Jersey race. Because this is happening across

2137
01:52:36,320 --> 01:52:39,640
Speaker 1: the board. Everybody's electric bills are going up. There's just

2138
01:52:39,720 --> 01:52:42,479
Speaker 1: a more and there, you know. And what people do

2139
01:52:42,600 --> 01:52:45,320
Speaker 1: is they cherry pick the thing that they don't like

2140
01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:48,160
Speaker 1: to say this is the reason it's going up. It's

2141
01:52:48,320 --> 01:52:50,920
Speaker 1: just everything is the reason. And I think that there's

2142
01:52:50,960 --> 01:52:55,040
Speaker 1: some argument that what Trump has done with canceling some

2143
01:52:55,120 --> 01:52:59,840
Speaker 1: of these all of the above energy strategies, that he

2144
01:53:00,160 --> 01:53:04,720
Speaker 1: actually limiting new energy getting onto the grid, like we

2145
01:53:04,800 --> 01:53:09,599
Speaker 1: need more diversified sources of energy in order to keep

2146
01:53:09,800 --> 01:53:13,280
Speaker 1: everything going that we're going and him sort of you know,

2147
01:53:13,920 --> 01:53:18,519
Speaker 1: essentially torpedoing the Biden Energy Bill mandates when it came

2148
01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:23,000
Speaker 1: to wind and solar and things like that. It's going

2149
01:53:23,080 --> 01:53:29,080
Speaker 1: to directly impact the cost of electric bills. So I

2150
01:53:29,080 --> 01:53:31,320
Speaker 1: don't think there's anything short term that's going to get done.

2151
01:53:31,400 --> 01:53:32,880
Speaker 1: But I will say this, I think you're going to

2152
01:53:32,920 --> 01:53:37,680
Speaker 1: have more political rhetoric about it. You know, we're all

2153
01:53:37,720 --> 01:53:41,360
Speaker 1: going to have to start to recalibrate what's warm and

2154
01:53:41,400 --> 01:53:46,280
Speaker 1: cold in order to save a few dollars. I can

2155
01:53:46,360 --> 01:53:48,160
Speaker 1: tell you what I'm looking into is trying to figure

2156
01:53:48,160 --> 01:53:51,840
Speaker 1: out is there's some solar alternatives, you know, to at

2157
01:53:51,920 --> 01:53:56,719
Speaker 1: least minimizing the cost on some things. Right, is there

2158
01:53:57,120 --> 01:53:59,519
Speaker 1: and it may be tough in an apartment situation to

2159
01:54:00,240 --> 01:54:03,320
Speaker 1: the benefit of that. But will you start to see

2160
01:54:03,400 --> 01:54:06,360
Speaker 1: landlords who maybe maybe you know, I don't know how

2161
01:54:06,360 --> 01:54:09,160
Speaker 1: you're building a set up and sometimes you everybody sort

2162
01:54:09,200 --> 01:54:12,040
Speaker 1: of splits the utility costs. It's part of a larger fee,

2163
01:54:13,080 --> 01:54:15,720
Speaker 1: and in that sense, the landlord is incentivized to want

2164
01:54:15,720 --> 01:54:18,280
Speaker 1: to maybe put you know, solar panels and come up

2165
01:54:18,320 --> 01:54:21,040
Speaker 1: with a different way. But I think you're going to

2166
01:54:21,120 --> 01:54:24,040
Speaker 1: see a lot of people looking for alternative ways to

2167
01:54:24,120 --> 01:54:27,600
Speaker 1: minimize their drag on the grid. But they're still going

2168
01:54:27,680 --> 01:54:30,800
Speaker 1: to want need energy to power their electronics or power

2169
01:54:30,840 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 1: their car or power whatever. So but I I you know,

2170
01:54:35,360 --> 01:54:37,880
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm going to keep researching this more

2171
01:54:37,880 --> 01:54:41,400
Speaker 1: and more to give you a better answer to this question, Stafford.

2172
01:54:41,400 --> 01:54:44,800
Speaker 1: But I can tell you I think this is this

2173
01:54:44,920 --> 01:54:49,600
Speaker 1: is an issue that isn't is only going to get

2174
01:54:49,640 --> 01:54:52,680
Speaker 1: more in the mainstream in the conversation because it's the

2175
01:54:52,680 --> 01:54:55,880
Speaker 1: type of issue that everybody feels, right, everybody sees the

2176
01:54:55,920 --> 01:54:59,360
Speaker 1: cost of that, and we're seeing these giant spikes throw

2177
01:54:59,400 --> 01:55:02,680
Speaker 1: in extreme weather where in some places you're using your

2178
01:55:02,720 --> 01:55:04,920
Speaker 1: air conditioner longer than you normally do, or in some

2179
01:55:04,960 --> 01:55:07,320
Speaker 1: places you're using heat maybe at a time you never

2180
01:55:07,440 --> 01:55:11,560
Speaker 1: used it before. That also does weird things to the

2181
01:55:11,600 --> 01:55:16,160
Speaker 1: grid and ups the costs of what you're doing on it.

2182
01:55:16,280 --> 01:55:20,440
Speaker 1: So I think there never definitely needs to be a

2183
01:55:20,480 --> 01:55:27,440
Speaker 1: little more federal involvement with how this grid, with how

2184
01:55:27,480 --> 01:55:31,480
Speaker 1: the electric grid is operating, because it's it definitely feels

2185
01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:35,280
Speaker 1: and you know, who knows Texas is not on the grid.

2186
01:55:35,320 --> 01:55:39,080
Speaker 1: They sort of created their own system. That thing it,

2187
01:55:39,480 --> 01:55:45,360
Speaker 1: you know, feels like it's it could trigger a bigger

2188
01:55:45,400 --> 01:55:48,280
Speaker 1: problem if they have a tough winner. It's always the

2189
01:55:48,320 --> 01:55:51,240
Speaker 1: winners that really put a lot of stress on that

2190
01:55:51,280 --> 01:55:55,400
Speaker 1: Texas grid, And if that collapses and it's come close

2191
01:55:55,480 --> 01:55:59,680
Speaker 1: a couple of times, it could really sort of sober

2192
01:55:59,760 --> 01:56:02,480
Speaker 1: up everybody and realize that we have a federal problem here.

2193
01:56:02,520 --> 01:56:05,040
Speaker 1: This isn't going to be solved in one state. I

2194
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:08,600
Speaker 1: don't think states have this have the ability to do this.

2195
01:56:08,800 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 1: Now you may get some states try to find financial

2196
01:56:13,080 --> 01:56:17,920
Speaker 1: help for people, but I'm not sure. There's only only

2197
01:56:17,960 --> 01:56:21,360
Speaker 1: so much money that might be available for that. But

2198
01:56:21,440 --> 01:56:27,480
Speaker 1: I do think this is going to become the most

2199
01:56:27,480 --> 01:56:30,400
Speaker 1: symbolic issue that's talked about when it comes to cost

2200
01:56:30,400 --> 01:56:35,120
Speaker 1: of living challenges. Next question comes from Jim Philadelphia's It's

2201
01:56:35,120 --> 01:56:37,000
Speaker 1: Big Fans in c NBC Days. Congrats on a great

2202
01:56:37,000 --> 01:56:38,960
Speaker 1: start to the new chapter. One been wondering, what do

2203
01:56:38,960 --> 01:56:41,919
Speaker 1: you think Trump's real motivation is for intervening in Venezuela

2204
01:56:42,000 --> 01:56:44,560
Speaker 1: under the narco terrorism label. He's never shown much interest

2205
01:56:44,600 --> 01:56:47,040
Speaker 1: in preserving democracy. Is this really about removing Maduro? Or

2206
01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:49,240
Speaker 1: is it just another self serving move, maybe even a

2207
01:56:49,240 --> 01:56:52,160
Speaker 1: play for a Nobel Peace Prize. Jim, I'll tell you

2208
01:56:52,160 --> 01:56:56,800
Speaker 1: what my thesis is on this. So Marco Rubio, you know,

2209
01:56:56,880 --> 01:57:01,720
Speaker 1: after starting off his relationship with Trump making Dick jokes

2210
01:57:02,280 --> 01:57:05,960
Speaker 1: about him right at a debate talking about his hands, right,

2211
01:57:06,080 --> 01:57:08,640
Speaker 1: Why is the hands part of the thing? Right? It

2212
01:57:08,720 --> 01:57:13,440
Speaker 1: is Rubio that made that meme famous. Rubio has since

2213
01:57:13,480 --> 01:57:15,200
Speaker 1: done a one ad ent Trump right. We saw it

2214
01:57:15,240 --> 01:57:22,240
Speaker 1: sometime during the first term, and he has gone out

2215
01:57:22,240 --> 01:57:26,839
Speaker 1: of his way to endear him endear the Latin American

2216
01:57:26,920 --> 01:57:31,440
Speaker 1: political activist community that is on the side of ousting

2217
01:57:31,480 --> 01:57:35,600
Speaker 1: some of these guys, but that diaspora that has a

2218
01:57:35,600 --> 01:57:39,560
Speaker 1: lot of political and financial power in South Florida who've

2219
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:44,040
Speaker 1: been very supportive of Rubio's politics over the years. He essentially,

2220
01:57:44,080 --> 01:57:46,839
Speaker 1: because Trump is such an important figure now in South Florida,

2221
01:57:47,640 --> 01:57:51,760
Speaker 1: he essentially helped Trump cement whatever you know, cement this,

2222
01:57:52,800 --> 01:57:54,680
Speaker 1: or you could argue Rubio had to catch up to

2223
01:57:54,680 --> 01:57:56,480
Speaker 1: where all these folks, they all were going, they were

2224
01:57:56,520 --> 01:58:01,760
Speaker 1: going to gravitate towards Trump anyway, but this began where Trump,

2225
01:58:01,760 --> 01:58:05,280
Speaker 1: where Trump started. Basically doesn't make any decision in Latin

2226
01:58:05,320 --> 01:58:08,240
Speaker 1: America without Marco Rubio. And that was true in sort

2227
01:58:08,280 --> 01:58:11,560
Speaker 1: of the last year or two of the Trump era,

2228
01:58:12,120 --> 01:58:15,840
Speaker 1: the first Trump term. And it is and then you know,

2229
01:58:15,920 --> 01:58:21,680
Speaker 1: Rubio really ingratiated himself during Trump's exile at mar A Lago.

2230
01:58:22,200 --> 01:58:27,440
Speaker 1: He'd constantly go there. He'd bring these Latin American figures

2231
01:58:27,520 --> 01:58:31,920
Speaker 1: to meet with them. He'd be So this is a

2232
01:58:31,960 --> 01:58:34,080
Speaker 1: long way of me making the case that this is

2233
01:58:34,120 --> 01:58:38,080
Speaker 1: not a Donald Trump obsession. This is a Marco Rubio obsession.

2234
01:58:39,680 --> 01:58:45,200
Speaker 1: And I think that Rubio has you know, there is

2235
01:58:45,720 --> 01:58:49,360
Speaker 1: there is a demand. Look go see the I hope

2236
01:58:49,400 --> 01:58:52,520
Speaker 1: you heard my conversation with Billy Corbin and he did

2237
01:58:52,200 --> 01:58:56,720
Speaker 1: a documentary called Men of War about a failed sort

2238
01:58:56,760 --> 01:59:02,240
Speaker 1: of bizarre coup, a you know, group of US mercenaries

2239
01:59:02,240 --> 01:59:07,640
Speaker 1: working with a former bodyguard of Trump's to somehow get

2240
01:59:07,680 --> 01:59:12,800
Speaker 1: on the get into Venezuela and overthrow Maduro. Kind of

2241
01:59:12,840 --> 01:59:18,200
Speaker 1: a bay of pigs, Venezuelan style type of story. It's

2242
01:59:18,240 --> 01:59:20,760
Speaker 1: one of those you can't believe this is true, but

2243
01:59:21,880 --> 01:59:25,800
Speaker 1: you know, Billy always has the receipts. There is a

2244
01:59:25,840 --> 01:59:28,000
Speaker 1: group of folks in South Florida that that are, you know,

2245
01:59:28,240 --> 01:59:33,040
Speaker 1: frustrated with Maduro, and this is Rubio cares about this.

2246
01:59:33,320 --> 01:59:39,120
Speaker 1: Rubio believes in this, and I think Rubio has got

2247
01:59:39,280 --> 01:59:42,879
Speaker 1: enough stature and status in Trump's world He's both Secretary

2248
01:59:42,920 --> 01:59:46,920
Speaker 1: State National Security Advisor that it is Rubio that is

2249
01:59:46,960 --> 01:59:51,960
Speaker 1: helping to steer him in this direction. And I think

2250
01:59:52,040 --> 01:59:54,480
Speaker 1: that there's no doubt in my mind that this is

2251
01:59:54,520 --> 02:00:00,040
Speaker 1: a Rubio project that Trump has adopted and he's you

2252
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:04,640
Speaker 1: you know, this narco terrorism thing is you know, if

2253
02:00:04,640 --> 02:00:07,480
Speaker 1: you had to prove it, I don't know how they would, right,

2254
02:00:07,680 --> 02:00:10,520
Speaker 1: you know, where do you prove that the drug money

2255
02:00:10,560 --> 02:00:14,480
Speaker 1: is being used to fund terrorism. That's number one. Number two,

2256
02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:19,680
Speaker 1: what fentanyl. You know, this is not where our fentyl

2257
02:00:19,680 --> 02:00:22,320
Speaker 1: problem comes from. It's not in Venezuela. It comes from

2258
02:00:22,360 --> 02:00:27,480
Speaker 1: Mexico and China. So this is a pretext that's sort

2259
02:00:27,520 --> 02:00:32,400
Speaker 1: of been created. Look, I would feel better about this

2260
02:00:32,520 --> 02:00:36,640
Speaker 1: if the argument were we're trying to enforce democratic norms,

2261
02:00:37,680 --> 02:00:39,520
Speaker 1: then we can debate whether we should be using the

2262
02:00:39,560 --> 02:00:42,600
Speaker 1: military to do that. That should be the debate we

2263
02:00:42,600 --> 02:00:46,160
Speaker 1: should be having as a country about this Venezuela move.

2264
02:00:46,200 --> 02:00:49,880
Speaker 1: But instead they're essentially lying to us about the rationale

2265
02:00:49,920 --> 02:00:52,760
Speaker 1: for what they're doing, saying this is not about regime change,

2266
02:00:52,800 --> 02:00:55,600
Speaker 1: it's not about the democracy. This is about a specific thing.

2267
02:00:56,280 --> 02:00:58,520
Speaker 1: And yet what are we doing. It looks like we're

2268
02:00:58,560 --> 02:01:03,600
Speaker 1: on the verge of of overthrowing a government. So it

2269
02:01:03,640 --> 02:01:05,680
Speaker 1: feels like we're you know, it feels like we're doing

2270
02:01:05,720 --> 02:01:07,800
Speaker 1: this all the wrong way, Which is why a couple

2271
02:01:07,800 --> 02:01:09,920
Speaker 1: of weeks ago, in my toodcast time machine, I wanted

2272
02:01:09,920 --> 02:01:16,560
Speaker 1: to make the Panama Canal Anniversary the Liberation of Panama,

2273
02:01:16,560 --> 02:01:20,600
Speaker 1: if you will, an important story because anytime, you know,

2274
02:01:20,640 --> 02:01:23,720
Speaker 1: whenever we're involved and we lie about why we're involved,

2275
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:27,360
Speaker 1: we do not help our long term ability to have

2276
02:01:27,440 --> 02:01:31,240
Speaker 1: influenced the right way in Latin America. And I just,

2277
02:01:31,360 --> 02:01:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, I am I want to see Maduro go.

2278
02:01:36,080 --> 02:01:38,240
Speaker 1: I am, you know, sort of like it's like it's

2279
02:01:38,280 --> 02:01:40,680
Speaker 1: like Saddam. I'm glad Saddam left. But was that the

2280
02:01:40,680 --> 02:01:42,960
Speaker 1: way to do it? I don't know if this is

2281
02:01:43,000 --> 02:01:47,960
Speaker 1: the right way to get rid of Adua. Next question

2282
02:01:48,040 --> 02:01:50,600
Speaker 1: comes from Dan, and then I'm going to get into

2283
02:01:50,640 --> 02:01:55,040
Speaker 1: my college football preview for the weekend. We'll do it

2284
02:01:55,080 --> 02:01:57,440
Speaker 1: through the prism of the college football playoff. He goes,

2285
02:01:57,480 --> 02:02:00,000
Speaker 1: I've been enjoying the podcast is always. Something I noticed

2286
02:02:00,240 --> 02:02:02,680
Speaker 1: is that the election coverage shows that Andrew Cuomo outperforms

2287
02:02:02,720 --> 02:02:05,600
Speaker 1: on Mam Donnie among voters without a college degree. NBC

2288
02:02:05,680 --> 02:02:07,640
Speaker 1: reports that Mam Donnie won only twenty six percent of

2289
02:02:07,640 --> 02:02:10,400
Speaker 1: white non college graduates, and similar trends appeared in the

2290
02:02:10,440 --> 02:02:13,800
Speaker 1: gubernatorial races. Despite overall wins, Democrats still seem to underperform

2291
02:02:13,800 --> 02:02:17,040
Speaker 1: among non college educated voters, raising concerns about their strengthen

2292
02:02:17,080 --> 02:02:19,320
Speaker 1: states like Michigan and Nebraska. Is it fair to interpret

2293
02:02:19,360 --> 02:02:22,400
Speaker 1: these results as evidence that Democrats have not yet repaired

2294
02:02:22,400 --> 02:02:24,920
Speaker 1: their image with working class white voters. If so, what

2295
02:02:24,920 --> 02:02:27,120
Speaker 1: steps should the party take to become more competitive with

2296
02:02:27,200 --> 02:02:32,600
Speaker 1: this group? Thanks Dan, Well, look, I hopefully you're listening

2297
02:02:32,680 --> 02:02:34,760
Speaker 1: to the answer this question after you've heard the interview

2298
02:02:34,760 --> 02:02:37,040
Speaker 1: with Adam Gentilsen. It's exactly what he's trying to do,

2299
02:02:37,080 --> 02:02:40,080
Speaker 1: which is, how do you get you know, the irony

2300
02:02:40,240 --> 02:02:46,160
Speaker 1: is you know, I think Democrats have struggled culturally to

2301
02:02:46,200 --> 02:02:50,280
Speaker 1: connect to this group of voters for some time. They

2302
02:02:50,360 --> 02:02:52,440
Speaker 1: used to be sort of Democrats and they were just

2303
02:02:52,480 --> 02:02:55,840
Speaker 1: sort of Democrats, and it was they were culturally Democrats

2304
02:02:55,920 --> 02:02:59,520
Speaker 1: that and the Democrats they thought economically were looking out

2305
02:02:59,520 --> 02:03:02,440
Speaker 1: for him as is That explains why there were two

2306
02:03:02,520 --> 02:03:06,320
Speaker 1: US senators in Nebraska for you know, not an insignificant

2307
02:03:06,360 --> 02:03:09,600
Speaker 1: period of time, and almost always one a state that

2308
02:03:09,680 --> 02:03:13,120
Speaker 1: you know, is the birthplace of the the perhaps the

2309
02:03:13,160 --> 02:03:20,960
Speaker 1: original Prairie populace William Jennings. Bryan, Right, So I think

2310
02:03:21,000 --> 02:03:23,600
Speaker 1: you're right to point out those things. I think this

2311
02:03:23,640 --> 02:03:25,480
Speaker 1: is to me the great danger of the midterms on

2312
02:03:25,520 --> 02:03:29,960
Speaker 1: the Democrats, which is they don't need they could do

2313
02:03:31,080 --> 02:03:34,920
Speaker 1: as mediocre as they did with non college educated whites

2314
02:03:34,920 --> 02:03:37,040
Speaker 1: in the midterms because they won't turn out in the

2315
02:03:37,040 --> 02:03:39,240
Speaker 1: same numbers that they'll turn out in a presidential election,

2316
02:03:40,120 --> 02:03:44,240
Speaker 1: giving Democrats an opportunity because they'll they'll sort of over

2317
02:03:44,400 --> 02:03:48,800
Speaker 1: index on their more frequent voters and college education voters,

2318
02:03:48,840 --> 02:03:51,120
Speaker 1: and they will be a bigger share of the electorate

2319
02:03:51,160 --> 02:03:53,640
Speaker 1: in a midterm than they will be in a general.

2320
02:03:53,680 --> 02:03:57,200
Speaker 1: It's why, you know, have they been a presidential like

2321
02:03:57,400 --> 02:04:00,120
Speaker 1: turnout in say Virginia, Maybe she only wins by eight

2322
02:04:00,240 --> 02:04:05,080
Speaker 1: instead of fifteen, and maybe if you got although you know,

2323
02:04:05,120 --> 02:04:08,840
Speaker 1: to me, the New Jersey thing is why I why

2324
02:04:08,920 --> 02:04:12,400
Speaker 1: I believe this was a Trump referendum. When you have

2325
02:04:13,200 --> 02:04:16,080
Speaker 1: the Republican candidate actually getting more raw vote than he

2326
02:04:16,160 --> 02:04:19,800
Speaker 1: got four years earlier, but he lost by ten percentage

2327
02:04:19,800 --> 02:04:22,680
Speaker 1: points more than when he lost before, shows you a

2328
02:04:22,720 --> 02:04:24,320
Speaker 1: whole bunch of voters that didn't show up four years

2329
02:04:24,320 --> 02:04:27,800
Speaker 1: ago that decided to show up. Well, you didn't have

2330
02:04:27,840 --> 02:04:30,560
Speaker 1: an equal basically, a whole bunch of presidential only voters

2331
02:04:30,600 --> 02:04:33,320
Speaker 1: decided to show up in a governor's race on the

2332
02:04:33,320 --> 02:04:36,440
Speaker 1: Democratic side. You didn't get the presidential only voters to

2333
02:04:36,440 --> 02:04:39,080
Speaker 1: suddenly show up in a governor's race on the Republican side.

2334
02:04:39,160 --> 02:04:43,120
Speaker 1: And then you can see how lopsided things can get.

2335
02:04:43,440 --> 02:04:48,760
Speaker 1: I think the biggest, the potential worst outcome for the

2336
02:04:49,840 --> 02:04:55,080
Speaker 1: Democrats hopes in twenty twenty eight. Weirdly will be thinking

2337
02:04:55,120 --> 02:04:56,920
Speaker 1: that if they win the House in the Senate, that

2338
02:04:56,960 --> 02:04:59,760
Speaker 1: they've solved their problems and it's just a it's you know,

2339
02:04:59,800 --> 02:05:01,960
Speaker 1: there going to just coast to the presidency like what

2340
02:05:02,040 --> 02:05:05,520
Speaker 1: happened in six going into eight, and I would just

2341
02:05:05,560 --> 02:05:09,440
Speaker 1: say it's very possible they could have a midterm revival.

2342
02:05:09,640 --> 02:05:14,000
Speaker 1: Eighty six midterms were terrific midterms for the Democrats, and

2343
02:05:14,040 --> 02:05:17,080
Speaker 1: then they after getting clobbered in eighty four, and then

2344
02:05:17,080 --> 02:05:20,920
Speaker 1: they go and get clobbered in eighty eight. So I

2345
02:05:21,000 --> 02:05:25,680
Speaker 1: do think the Democratic makeup of their more likely voter

2346
02:05:26,520 --> 02:05:29,600
Speaker 1: automatically puts them at advantage to overperform in the midterms.

2347
02:05:29,600 --> 02:05:31,880
Speaker 1: It's why even in a bad midterm year like twenty

2348
02:05:31,920 --> 02:05:35,920
Speaker 1: two was, they didn't get clobberd the way they that

2349
02:05:36,200 --> 02:05:39,000
Speaker 1: an out party gets clobbered or an inn party gets clobbered,

2350
02:05:39,040 --> 02:05:41,800
Speaker 1: simply because more of their voters are just are more

2351
02:05:41,840 --> 02:05:46,920
Speaker 1: regular voters. No, I think that the party still has

2352
02:05:46,920 --> 02:05:50,720
Speaker 1: a problem and until it you know, in fairness to

2353
02:05:50,760 --> 02:05:53,760
Speaker 1: the party on this one, neither Virginia nor New Jersey

2354
02:05:53,840 --> 02:05:57,720
Speaker 1: is a huge It had a rural vote that the

2355
02:05:57,800 --> 02:06:03,560
Speaker 1: candidate had to make an effort. That's not going to

2356
02:06:03,600 --> 02:06:05,880
Speaker 1: be the case in trying to win an election in

2357
02:06:05,960 --> 02:06:08,120
Speaker 1: North Carolina. That's not going to be the case. In

2358
02:06:08,160 --> 02:06:10,240
Speaker 1: trying to win in Ohio. That's not going to be

2359
02:06:10,280 --> 02:06:13,480
Speaker 1: the case in trying to win in Iowa or Alaska,

2360
02:06:13,720 --> 02:06:17,160
Speaker 1: or Kansas or Mississippi or even Texas. You know, you

2361
02:06:17,240 --> 02:06:19,920
Speaker 1: can't win Texas just by winning the cities that a

2362
02:06:20,120 --> 02:06:22,600
Speaker 1: Roar came close, but he couldn't do it. He want

2363
02:06:22,640 --> 02:06:24,360
Speaker 1: all the he won all the cities, and he won

2364
02:06:24,440 --> 02:06:27,880
Speaker 1: all the the big media markets, but he couldn't. He

2365
02:06:27,920 --> 02:06:30,120
Speaker 1: got killed in the ex serbs and the world voters.

2366
02:06:30,120 --> 02:06:32,960
Speaker 1: So uh yeah, I don't think they've solved any other

2367
02:06:33,040 --> 02:06:35,880
Speaker 1: problems on that front. And I still think they the

2368
02:06:36,520 --> 02:06:40,240
Speaker 1: Democrats are you know, they have to be seen as

2369
02:06:40,280 --> 02:06:45,440
Speaker 1: a stronger party. Strength And I know that's an elusive word,

2370
02:06:45,440 --> 02:06:48,840
Speaker 1: but I think strength's a big, a big thing with

2371
02:06:48,880 --> 02:06:51,120
Speaker 1: this with with this voting group. If they're going to

2372
02:06:51,160 --> 02:06:55,400
Speaker 1: try to reconnect back with them, and you know, the

2373
02:06:55,480 --> 02:06:58,240
Speaker 1: economy will be an entree. It's not lost on me.

2374
02:06:58,280 --> 02:07:01,320
Speaker 1: If you think about it. The last four Democratic presidents

2375
02:07:01,320 --> 02:07:06,400
Speaker 1: in my lifetime who've won all one during an economic downturn.

2376
02:07:07,400 --> 02:07:09,760
Speaker 1: You know, it's possible that Democrats are just you know,

2377
02:07:10,080 --> 02:07:13,160
Speaker 1: in my lifetime have culturally been on the wrong side

2378
02:07:13,160 --> 02:07:15,720
Speaker 1: of where the country is, and Republicans have culturally been

2379
02:07:15,720 --> 02:07:18,640
Speaker 1: on the right side where the country is. But that

2380
02:07:18,760 --> 02:07:24,120
Speaker 1: Democrats when the economy's in the tank. It was true

2381
02:07:24,120 --> 02:07:27,960
Speaker 1: in seventy six, it's true in ninety two, and although

2382
02:07:27,960 --> 02:07:30,720
Speaker 1: the economy was recovering by the time Trump Clinton won,

2383
02:07:30,800 --> 02:07:32,800
Speaker 1: but the perception was it was in the tank. It

2384
02:07:32,840 --> 02:07:36,720
Speaker 1: was true in eight, it's true in twenty right, it

2385
02:07:36,760 --> 02:07:42,160
Speaker 1: was certainly virus related, but still it was an economic downturn. Sadly,

2386
02:07:42,240 --> 02:07:44,680
Speaker 1: it may be that there's an economic downturn in twenty

2387
02:07:44,680 --> 02:07:48,240
Speaker 1: eight and that powers everything. And let me just tell

2388
02:07:48,280 --> 02:07:50,200
Speaker 1: you this, when you have an election that's all about

2389
02:07:50,240 --> 02:07:53,600
Speaker 1: the economy, it suddenly papers over all of your different

2390
02:07:54,280 --> 02:08:06,440
Speaker 1: interestscript problems, right because everything becomes about that. So for Miami,

2391
02:08:06,480 --> 02:08:08,560
Speaker 1: it's their last home game. I know you're on pins

2392
02:08:08,600 --> 02:08:14,280
Speaker 1: and needles. The College Football Playoff Committee is getting a

2393
02:08:14,320 --> 02:08:17,480
Speaker 1: little better at giving some respect to the University of Miami,

2394
02:08:17,560 --> 02:08:21,879
Speaker 1: though not A. Ton, the guy who runs the committee,

2395
02:08:21,880 --> 02:08:25,320
Speaker 1: who was the spokesperson, basically said Miami is the only

2396
02:08:25,360 --> 02:08:27,880
Speaker 1: team in the ACC that has won a decent non

2397
02:08:27,920 --> 02:08:33,560
Speaker 1: conference game, like completely forgetting that Ala Fingbama lost to

2398
02:08:33,600 --> 02:08:37,080
Speaker 1: Florida State in Week one and so what you see

2399
02:08:37,120 --> 02:08:39,760
Speaker 1: as you see. And this is why I do not

2400
02:08:39,920 --> 02:08:43,240
Speaker 1: trust the ESPN Invitational Committee. I think all of these

2401
02:08:43,240 --> 02:08:47,120
Speaker 1: athletic directors and they're all I mean, my god, they've

2402
02:08:47,160 --> 02:08:49,800
Speaker 1: all realized they work for ESPN and the SEC and

2403
02:08:49,840 --> 02:08:54,320
Speaker 1: nobody else. Apparently. It is it is, it is why

2404
02:08:54,320 --> 02:08:57,000
Speaker 1: we have to get rid of this committee. They are

2405
02:08:57,040 --> 02:09:00,560
Speaker 1: not you know, I and if yous me, you know,

2406
02:09:01,000 --> 02:09:03,160
Speaker 1: you could say I'm being you know, yeah, I'm being

2407
02:09:03,280 --> 02:09:06,920
Speaker 1: biased towards the ACC. My bias is I want the

2408
02:09:06,960 --> 02:09:11,000
Speaker 1: ACC to get treated fairly. I'm just asking for fair treatment.

2409
02:09:11,280 --> 02:09:13,400
Speaker 1: This is a committee, and this is a network that

2410
02:09:13,440 --> 02:09:16,480
Speaker 1: has already punished the ACC two years ago with denying

2411
02:09:16,680 --> 02:09:20,600
Speaker 1: an undefeated ACC champion access to the playoff of Florida State.

2412
02:09:21,200 --> 02:09:24,400
Speaker 1: This is a ESPN Invitational committee that denied the number

2413
02:09:24,400 --> 02:09:27,000
Speaker 1: one ranked offense in the country with ten wins and

2414
02:09:27,040 --> 02:09:29,800
Speaker 1: two losses, the Dederus from Miami. They did not put

2415
02:09:29,840 --> 02:09:32,120
Speaker 1: him in the playoff simply because they were in ACC

2416
02:09:32,160 --> 02:09:35,480
Speaker 1: school the exact same resume, but an SEC school, and

2417
02:09:35,560 --> 02:09:38,560
Speaker 1: I promise you they would have made it when you're

2418
02:09:38,720 --> 02:09:42,360
Speaker 1: literally the top ranked offense in the country, because supposedly

2419
02:09:42,360 --> 02:09:45,920
Speaker 1: those outside metrics matter. No, their metrics matter only when

2420
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:49,840
Speaker 1: it is about getting the matchups that they want for

2421
02:09:49,880 --> 02:09:54,040
Speaker 1: the television show. And now it is a head scratcher

2422
02:09:54,040 --> 02:09:55,600
Speaker 1: to me that they didn't think cam Ward was good

2423
02:09:55,600 --> 02:09:57,800
Speaker 1: for their television show. I would argue cam Ward would

2424
02:09:57,800 --> 02:10:00,360
Speaker 1: have been great for their television show last year in

2425
02:10:00,400 --> 02:10:05,280
Speaker 1: the exhibition that is the ESPN Invitational. But the fact

2426
02:10:05,360 --> 02:10:08,920
Speaker 1: that the committee is literally lying about the ACC's resume

2427
02:10:09,080 --> 02:10:13,360
Speaker 1: on national television with Rhys Davis or misinformed, okay, lying

2428
02:10:13,400 --> 02:10:16,360
Speaker 1: and inquires motive, But there is a motive here. They're

2429
02:10:16,360 --> 02:10:18,240
Speaker 1: going out of their way to make the case against

2430
02:10:18,280 --> 02:10:21,760
Speaker 1: the ACC because apparently, if you're if you're in the

2431
02:10:21,800 --> 02:10:25,480
Speaker 1: ACC and you have a competitive conference, your conference must suck.

2432
02:10:25,720 --> 02:10:27,839
Speaker 1: If you're in the SEC and have a competitive conference,

2433
02:10:27,880 --> 02:10:30,200
Speaker 1: it's proof that your conference is great. I mean, I'm

2434
02:10:30,240 --> 02:10:35,320
Speaker 1: just sorry, it's subjective bullshit on this, Okay, Yes, is

2435
02:10:35,360 --> 02:10:38,600
Speaker 1: it true that the SEC program spend more money collectively

2436
02:10:38,680 --> 02:10:41,440
Speaker 1: than the ACC does. So you assume you have more talent, yes,

2437
02:10:41,600 --> 02:10:44,160
Speaker 1: but you know is produced like something I like if

2438
02:10:44,200 --> 02:10:45,840
Speaker 1: you want to sit here and play that game. The

2439
02:10:45,880 --> 02:10:48,760
Speaker 1: ACC has I think produced the second most amount of

2440
02:10:48,840 --> 02:10:51,960
Speaker 1: first round draft picks over the last ten years, right

2441
02:10:52,000 --> 02:10:54,000
Speaker 1: behind the SEC and ahead of the Big ten in

2442
02:10:54,040 --> 02:10:58,520
Speaker 1: the Big twelve. But again we can you can find

2443
02:10:58,560 --> 02:11:00,520
Speaker 1: little things like that all the time to slice and

2444
02:11:00,560 --> 02:11:04,800
Speaker 1: dice things. But they went out of their way to

2445
02:11:05,000 --> 02:11:08,000
Speaker 1: punish to and it would have been some other ACC

2446
02:11:08,120 --> 02:11:11,160
Speaker 1: school and they've done it. And again this goes back

2447
02:11:11,200 --> 02:11:15,320
Speaker 1: to the where the hell is the commissioner Jim Phillips

2448
02:11:15,640 --> 02:11:19,880
Speaker 1: is way too meek uh in this conversation he lets

2449
02:11:19,920 --> 02:11:22,840
Speaker 1: Greg Sankei go move around with them up and down.

2450
02:11:22,880 --> 02:11:26,080
Speaker 1: I told you last week about my source that that

2451
02:11:26,720 --> 02:11:30,000
Speaker 1: told me how much that every week Greg Greg Sanki

2452
02:11:30,080 --> 02:11:32,520
Speaker 1: must have had a hissy fit. That that Herbstreet and

2453
02:11:32,560 --> 02:11:36,600
Speaker 1: Fowler were out doing a Texas Tech game. That must

2454
02:11:36,640 --> 02:11:39,880
Speaker 1: have freaked them out. But that every week he lobbies

2455
02:11:39,880 --> 02:11:41,960
Speaker 1: that you must be in the SEC. You must be

2456
02:11:42,000 --> 02:11:46,000
Speaker 1: in the SEC. And again I get it. ESPN's in

2457
02:11:46,000 --> 02:11:48,200
Speaker 1: business with the SEC, but they're also in business with

2458
02:11:48,240 --> 02:11:51,400
Speaker 1: the ACC, and I think the ACC could be suing

2459
02:11:51,600 --> 02:11:54,800
Speaker 1: ESPN for breach of contract. This is a network that

2460
02:11:54,840 --> 02:11:57,320
Speaker 1: has gone out of their way to diminish the value

2461
02:11:57,320 --> 02:12:01,080
Speaker 1: of the ACC. The ACC is increased its value, and

2462
02:12:01,360 --> 02:12:04,720
Speaker 1: ESPN tries to diminish the value of the ACC, and

2463
02:12:04,800 --> 02:12:08,400
Speaker 1: they're your biggest business partner. The ACEC should be in court.

2464
02:12:09,200 --> 02:12:16,400
Speaker 1: Don't sue each other. Sue ESPN for essentially for diminishing

2465
02:12:16,680 --> 02:12:21,160
Speaker 1: the value of ACC sports in general and ACC football

2466
02:12:21,160 --> 02:12:25,720
Speaker 1: in particular. I'm sorry the lack of pushback, and again

2467
02:12:25,760 --> 02:12:29,520
Speaker 1: it's you know, ESPN controls the college football playoff, a mistake,

2468
02:12:29,560 --> 02:12:31,600
Speaker 1: which is why you got to get rid of this committee.

2469
02:12:31,640 --> 02:12:35,040
Speaker 1: We ultimately got get rid of this committee. There is

2470
02:12:35,120 --> 02:12:37,160
Speaker 1: a way to make all of this and on the

2471
02:12:37,160 --> 02:12:41,160
Speaker 1: field issue, you can you know, if you basically say,

2472
02:12:41,520 --> 02:12:44,000
Speaker 1: you know, if a conference, i'd love to see sort

2473
02:12:44,040 --> 02:12:49,160
Speaker 1: of actually an eighteen playoff that essentially had each conference

2474
02:12:49,200 --> 02:12:52,280
Speaker 1: have their own sort of six team round robin of

2475
02:12:52,320 --> 02:12:55,600
Speaker 1: some sort that decided who their representative was in the

2476
02:12:55,640 --> 02:12:59,160
Speaker 1: eight and you'd have your four conference champions, your group

2477
02:12:59,200 --> 02:13:01,880
Speaker 1: of five champions after they had a little tournament. But again,

2478
02:13:02,000 --> 02:13:04,080
Speaker 1: you had to win on the field to get in,

2479
02:13:04,160 --> 02:13:06,160
Speaker 1: and then you might have and you might have three

2480
02:13:06,200 --> 02:13:10,000
Speaker 1: wildcards which Notre Dame would be eligible for, and the

2481
02:13:10,040 --> 02:13:13,080
Speaker 1: next two highest winning percentages in the power for just

2482
02:13:13,120 --> 02:13:16,480
Speaker 1: like the NFL wildcard works. And yes, sometimes you might

2483
02:13:16,560 --> 02:13:19,680
Speaker 1: have somebody left out, but it was done on the

2484
02:13:19,720 --> 02:13:23,040
Speaker 1: field with metrics. Everybody understands at the beginning. You know

2485
02:13:23,080 --> 02:13:26,080
Speaker 1: what nobody says from this committee. They can't tell you

2486
02:13:26,120 --> 02:13:28,680
Speaker 1: to this day. What matters more your wins are your losses.

2487
02:13:29,640 --> 02:13:32,240
Speaker 1: It's a win right. If they want to make the

2488
02:13:32,320 --> 02:13:35,120
Speaker 1: case that Miami is in, they will make a big

2489
02:13:35,120 --> 02:13:37,400
Speaker 1: deal out of their wins. If you want to make

2490
02:13:37,400 --> 02:13:39,360
Speaker 1: the case that Miami is out, you will make a

2491
02:13:39,360 --> 02:13:42,400
Speaker 1: big deal about their losses. Dinno. With Notre Dame, what's

2492
02:13:42,440 --> 02:13:46,200
Speaker 1: the case to put them in? They lost? Two of

2493
02:13:46,240 --> 02:13:48,600
Speaker 1: their losses were by a collective of four points against

2494
02:13:48,640 --> 02:13:50,800
Speaker 1: two of the most talented teams in the country. What's

2495
02:13:50,840 --> 02:13:53,280
Speaker 1: the case not to put Notre Dame in? The two

2496
02:13:53,280 --> 02:13:55,720
Speaker 1: times they faced talented teams in the country that belong

2497
02:13:55,760 --> 02:13:59,200
Speaker 1: in the playoffs, they couldn't beat them. But Notre Dame

2498
02:13:59,280 --> 02:14:02,360
Speaker 1: is a brand. Look, Miami has been a brand. Miami

2499
02:14:02,440 --> 02:14:05,160
Speaker 1: is the number one rated ACC school as far as

2500
02:14:05,240 --> 02:14:08,200
Speaker 1: television audience is concerned. It has been the last couple

2501
02:14:08,240 --> 02:14:11,360
Speaker 1: of years. You know, for the most part, Miami's been

2502
02:14:11,400 --> 02:14:15,120
Speaker 1: a brand and that usually helps them in situations like this.

2503
02:14:15,480 --> 02:14:19,320
Speaker 1: I do believe when college football continues this what they've

2504
02:14:19,360 --> 02:14:22,320
Speaker 1: done to the conference with the SEC and the Big

2505
02:14:22,360 --> 02:14:25,080
Speaker 1: Ten have done everybody else, Miami will probably be a

2506
02:14:25,160 --> 02:14:29,000
Speaker 1: half And unfortunately, my friends at NC State, Miami's opponent

2507
02:14:29,080 --> 02:14:31,520
Speaker 1: this week may end up being a poor have not. Now.

2508
02:14:31,560 --> 02:14:33,920
Speaker 1: I don't think that's healthy for college football. I think

2509
02:14:33,960 --> 02:14:36,839
Speaker 1: we could be doing this a better way. But anyway,

2510
02:14:36,880 --> 02:14:42,920
Speaker 1: here we are, so college football playoff rant over. It

2511
02:14:42,960 --> 02:14:46,160
Speaker 1: does look like Miami's path is not crazy anymore. They

2512
02:14:46,200 --> 02:14:49,000
Speaker 1: finally have them. They're still a bit under ranked. You know,

2513
02:14:49,120 --> 02:14:51,880
Speaker 1: are you're really ranking Miami behind Utah? No offense? To

2514
02:14:51,920 --> 02:14:54,960
Speaker 1: my producer, Lauren is a big Utah guy, and you

2515
02:14:55,000 --> 02:14:56,800
Speaker 1: know they do the you the wrong way. It's not

2516
02:14:56,880 --> 02:15:02,160
Speaker 1: this way, guys, It's like this, but that's okay. That said,

2517
02:15:02,480 --> 02:15:03,880
Speaker 1: do you think I have a lot of confidence in

2518
02:15:05,120 --> 02:15:08,720
Speaker 1: this coaching staff to be ready to put a licking

2519
02:15:08,800 --> 02:15:13,760
Speaker 1: on NC State on Senior Day at Miami? You know,

2520
02:15:14,040 --> 02:15:17,240
Speaker 1: I got a sixty five percent confidence level, but I

2521
02:15:17,280 --> 02:15:21,040
Speaker 1: don't have a ninety percent confidence level. You know, Miami

2522
02:15:21,080 --> 02:15:23,840
Speaker 1: should be able to put a number up on NC State.

2523
02:15:24,320 --> 02:15:27,080
Speaker 1: A forty five to ten victory should be what they

2524
02:15:27,120 --> 02:15:30,200
Speaker 1: do if they want to make the playoff. They kind

2525
02:15:30,200 --> 02:15:33,680
Speaker 1: of need a forty five to ten. But if you

2526
02:15:33,720 --> 02:15:35,600
Speaker 1: told me this was a thirty one, twenty four to

2527
02:15:35,600 --> 02:15:40,480
Speaker 1: twenty seven game that Miami eked out or somehow screwed

2528
02:15:40,520 --> 02:15:43,080
Speaker 1: it up at the end due to poor coaching decisions,

2529
02:15:44,360 --> 02:15:47,040
Speaker 1: I let's just say I fear it a little bit now.

2530
02:15:47,080 --> 02:15:49,600
Speaker 1: I don't think NC State has the defense and I

2531
02:15:49,600 --> 02:15:54,880
Speaker 1: think Miami's defense. You know, again, we're I'm going to

2532
02:15:54,960 --> 02:15:57,600
Speaker 1: learn a lot about how much these players want to

2533
02:15:57,640 --> 02:16:01,680
Speaker 1: play for these coaches, because if they do. I did

2534
02:16:01,720 --> 02:16:03,360
Speaker 1: not like the first half of what I saw in

2535
02:16:03,400 --> 02:16:06,880
Speaker 1: the Miami Syracuse game. It looked like it didn't look

2536
02:16:06,920 --> 02:16:09,000
Speaker 1: like I mean, it does feel like the offensive coordinator,

2537
02:16:09,000 --> 02:16:12,320
Speaker 1: Shannon Dawson is just out of ideas they continue. They

2538
02:16:12,360 --> 02:16:17,000
Speaker 1: are clearly not comfortable with Carson Beck making some decisions

2539
02:16:17,040 --> 02:16:21,960
Speaker 1: because they seem to fear putting him in positions to

2540
02:16:22,640 --> 02:16:25,520
Speaker 1: uh win it, you know, to either make a big

2541
02:16:25,560 --> 02:16:28,080
Speaker 1: player potentially, you know, put him in a precarious position.

2542
02:16:29,880 --> 02:16:33,520
Speaker 1: It's a shame how they coach it, how they do this.

2543
02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:38,920
Speaker 1: So we'll see. I'm nervous. I'm very nervous. I'm not

2544
02:16:38,959 --> 02:16:40,720
Speaker 1: gonna lie to you. I'm very nervous about this game

2545
02:16:41,120 --> 02:16:46,400
Speaker 1: because I actually think coach Crystal Ball is feeling the pressure.

2546
02:16:47,560 --> 02:16:51,320
Speaker 1: I think Shannon Dawson's feeling the pressure. And sometimes pressure

2547
02:16:51,360 --> 02:16:54,360
Speaker 1: is good on people respond to the pressure and they

2548
02:16:54,400 --> 02:16:58,600
Speaker 1: give you their best work, and sometimes the pressure puts

2549
02:16:58,640 --> 02:17:02,440
Speaker 1: them and they get parallel La. We'll see. The biggest

2550
02:17:02,440 --> 02:17:07,119
Speaker 1: game on the board as far as Miami's playoff rankings

2551
02:17:07,160 --> 02:17:11,160
Speaker 1: are concerned, is actually at the sight of where game

2552
02:17:11,240 --> 02:17:14,440
Speaker 1: Day decided to go, which is an interesting decision. They're

2553
02:17:14,480 --> 02:17:17,879
Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh and they're for the Notre Dame pit game.

2554
02:17:18,360 --> 02:17:21,400
Speaker 1: This is arguably Notre Dame's toughest game left, which is

2555
02:17:21,520 --> 02:17:24,920
Speaker 1: really so they're there because you know, Notre Dame has

2556
02:17:25,080 --> 02:17:26,760
Speaker 1: they can't lose in order to have a shot at

2557
02:17:26,760 --> 02:17:28,160
Speaker 1: the playoff. They went out, They're going to get in

2558
02:17:28,280 --> 02:17:30,600
Speaker 1: because a ten and two Notre Dame team will always

2559
02:17:30,600 --> 02:17:33,720
Speaker 1: make the playoff no matter who their two losses are.

2560
02:17:33,720 --> 02:17:36,200
Speaker 1: To and no matter if the ten wins are against

2561
02:17:36,280 --> 02:17:40,200
Speaker 1: the entire MAC conference, it's Notre Dame. You know, it's

2562
02:17:40,240 --> 02:17:44,439
Speaker 1: TV show people, So as long as it's an invitational,

2563
02:17:44,480 --> 02:17:48,640
Speaker 1: they'll always get the invite. Pitt's been an interesting team

2564
02:17:48,640 --> 02:17:50,840
Speaker 1: ever since they put in this freshman quarterback. He's been

2565
02:17:50,840 --> 02:17:54,600
Speaker 1: on He's lit it up. A patent our doozy team. Usually,

2566
02:17:54,680 --> 02:17:56,400
Speaker 1: isn't this free flowing on offense?

2567
02:17:56,520 --> 02:17:56,760
Speaker 2: Right?

2568
02:17:58,680 --> 02:18:00,800
Speaker 1: Miami has to play Pitt last game of the year,

2569
02:18:00,840 --> 02:18:07,400
Speaker 1: so this will be a common opponent. So everything about

2570
02:18:07,400 --> 02:18:09,240
Speaker 1: this game I have to I'm going to be watching

2571
02:18:09,280 --> 02:18:11,520
Speaker 1: every inch of it. It goes. It's on, it's the

2572
02:18:11,520 --> 02:18:13,600
Speaker 1: noon game, it'll be on before the Miami game, which

2573
02:18:13,640 --> 02:18:16,400
Speaker 1: is a three thirty. This is a huge game for

2574
02:18:16,480 --> 02:18:18,680
Speaker 1: the playoff. It's a huge game for Notre Dame. It's

2575
02:18:18,680 --> 02:18:21,000
Speaker 1: a huge game for the ACC. It's a huge game

2576
02:18:21,000 --> 02:18:27,480
Speaker 1: for Miami. It is this is interesting, right, what's better

2577
02:18:27,520 --> 02:18:31,360
Speaker 1: for Miami Notre Dame winning. I think I want Notre

2578
02:18:31,440 --> 02:18:33,760
Speaker 1: Dame to win by a field goal and then Miami

2579
02:18:33,800 --> 02:18:37,760
Speaker 1: to beat Pit by thirty. That's probably the best outcome

2580
02:18:38,480 --> 02:18:41,480
Speaker 1: because this will be if Miami and Notre Dame are

2581
02:18:41,480 --> 02:18:45,120
Speaker 1: both ten and two the Pit game will be the

2582
02:18:45,120 --> 02:18:50,440
Speaker 1: most recent comparative they'll both have played at PIT, So

2583
02:18:52,080 --> 02:18:54,480
Speaker 1: I have a feeling Pit and by the way, Pit

2584
02:18:54,600 --> 02:18:57,520
Speaker 1: seven to two, they're not out of this, all right,

2585
02:18:57,600 --> 02:18:59,720
Speaker 1: I'm not, you know. I don't know if they can

2586
02:18:59,840 --> 02:19:02,600
Speaker 1: make get all the way through their schedule and finish

2587
02:19:02,680 --> 02:19:05,680
Speaker 1: it off right. The two of their two of their

2588
02:19:05,680 --> 02:19:08,240
Speaker 1: next three games or Notre Dame and Miami, and the

2589
02:19:08,280 --> 02:19:11,360
Speaker 1: other one is Georgia Tech. So pitt literally might be

2590
02:19:11,440 --> 02:19:14,359
Speaker 1: facing three playoff teams at the end of their season.

2591
02:19:14,920 --> 02:19:16,640
Speaker 1: But they certainly are going to have an impact on

2592
02:19:16,680 --> 02:19:21,160
Speaker 1: Notre dames chances, Miami's chances, and Georgia Tech's chances. And

2593
02:19:21,280 --> 02:19:24,400
Speaker 1: they it's their last three games. So look, Pitt's had

2594
02:19:24,480 --> 02:19:26,560
Speaker 1: kind of an easy schedule. We still don't know how

2595
02:19:26,560 --> 02:19:28,240
Speaker 1: they lost to West Virginia, and I think they're trying

2596
02:19:28,240 --> 02:19:30,040
Speaker 1: to figure out how they lost to West Virginia and

2597
02:19:30,080 --> 02:19:33,280
Speaker 1: then their only other losses Louisville, which is a loss

2598
02:19:33,280 --> 02:19:38,400
Speaker 1: that Miami also has, but they've not They've not had

2599
02:19:38,440 --> 02:19:41,840
Speaker 1: the toughest of schedules. They opened with Duquine and Central

2600
02:19:41,879 --> 02:19:44,640
Speaker 1: Michigan and then West Virginia was their third game of

2601
02:19:44,640 --> 02:19:47,520
Speaker 1: the year. Which because it's a it's a regional rivalry,

2602
02:19:47,959 --> 02:19:54,160
Speaker 1: you throw the records out, right, But it's it's easily

2603
02:19:54,360 --> 02:19:57,800
Speaker 1: the single most important game as far as the playoff

2604
02:19:57,879 --> 02:20:02,000
Speaker 1: is concerned. That's on the board. A few other game games. Uh,

2605
02:20:02,040 --> 02:20:04,920
Speaker 1: do you buy that Wisconsin can play two good games

2606
02:20:04,920 --> 02:20:06,960
Speaker 1: in a row and give Indiana and Indiana plays two

2607
02:20:07,000 --> 02:20:10,560
Speaker 1: bad games in a row? Hard hard to see that one.

2608
02:20:10,600 --> 02:20:18,520
Speaker 1: This one's at Indiana. Boy, after this, Indiana only has Purdue,

2609
02:20:19,440 --> 02:20:21,560
Speaker 1: you know, the end of the season. And that's that

2610
02:20:21,680 --> 02:20:25,440
Speaker 1: could be fun, right, even though Produe is winless, they're

2611
02:20:25,440 --> 02:20:27,560
Speaker 1: gonna they care about this game. It's do you have

2612
02:20:27,600 --> 02:20:31,000
Speaker 1: to throw the records out? We shall see South Carolina,

2613
02:20:31,040 --> 02:20:33,520
Speaker 1: Texas A and M. I was not going to pay

2614
02:20:33,520 --> 02:20:35,560
Speaker 1: attention to this game. And one of my favorite betting

2615
02:20:35,600 --> 02:20:38,600
Speaker 1: podcasts made the point that South Carolina is coming off

2616
02:20:38,600 --> 02:20:41,600
Speaker 1: of bye after firing their offensive coordinator, a guy named Shula,

2617
02:20:41,879 --> 02:20:46,920
Speaker 1: one of the grandson of Don Shula, And uh that

2618
02:20:46,959 --> 02:20:49,320
Speaker 1: they're gonna make you know, and they already know that.

2619
02:20:49,360 --> 02:20:53,400
Speaker 1: Miami and other schools are already sniffing around Leonora Sellers

2620
02:20:53,440 --> 02:20:58,000
Speaker 1: for the for their portal QB for next season. I

2621
02:20:58,000 --> 02:21:01,440
Speaker 1: have a feeling that South Carolina offense is going to

2622
02:21:01,440 --> 02:21:06,080
Speaker 1: be a bit different showcasing Sellers, let him do his

2623
02:21:06,160 --> 02:21:08,879
Speaker 1: thing a lot more. It's going to be an open offense.

2624
02:21:08,920 --> 02:21:12,160
Speaker 1: So either it works and we see an exciting game

2625
02:21:12,320 --> 02:21:15,600
Speaker 1: and Lenora's sellers is the is the quarterback we all

2626
02:21:15,640 --> 02:21:19,240
Speaker 1: thought he was at the beginning of this season, or

2627
02:21:19,320 --> 02:21:22,840
Speaker 1: an m just rolls and they win by three touchdowns. Anyway,

2628
02:21:22,959 --> 02:21:26,440
Speaker 1: it's certainly worth turning on that game. Don't sleep on

2629
02:21:26,520 --> 02:21:29,080
Speaker 1: South Florida Navy South. You know, this is just the

2630
02:21:29,120 --> 02:21:31,800
Speaker 1: type of game that could turn into a weird shootout.

2631
02:21:31,840 --> 02:21:34,240
Speaker 1: The way Navy now can score, South Florida can score,

2632
02:21:34,280 --> 02:21:38,360
Speaker 1: it will this This shouldn't be close, but it is

2633
02:21:38,400 --> 02:21:40,680
Speaker 1: at the Naval Academy. It will be a little chilly

2634
02:21:41,280 --> 02:21:44,680
Speaker 1: in Annapolis. You know, this is just the type of

2635
02:21:44,680 --> 02:21:49,160
Speaker 1: game that USF could blow. Do you believe in Oklahoma?

2636
02:21:49,560 --> 02:21:53,080
Speaker 1: I don't so I think Alabama pays them, But it

2637
02:21:53,160 --> 02:21:58,440
Speaker 1: is worth noting Alabama is not the best favorite all

2638
02:21:58,480 --> 02:22:02,600
Speaker 1: the time. Is Caleb de Borera so far? But I

2639
02:22:02,680 --> 02:22:05,679
Speaker 1: just I just you know, I just don't buy that

2640
02:22:05,680 --> 02:22:08,840
Speaker 1: that Oklahoma can score much on them. And do you

2641
02:22:09,560 --> 02:22:11,400
Speaker 1: how do you think they have a good I know

2642
02:22:11,440 --> 02:22:13,640
Speaker 1: they statistically have a good defense. Do you believe they

2643
02:22:13,640 --> 02:22:17,240
Speaker 1: have a good defense? Have they really played anybody? Just

2644
02:22:17,240 --> 02:22:19,000
Speaker 1: something to think about it. I guess their Tennessee win

2645
02:22:19,320 --> 02:22:22,280
Speaker 1: that was that was a pretty good performance. You got

2646
02:22:22,280 --> 02:22:25,519
Speaker 1: to give them that. But obviously still has playoff implications

2647
02:22:25,600 --> 02:22:30,240
Speaker 1: right now, Oklahoma has to win, and I guess Alabama

2648
02:22:30,240 --> 02:22:32,679
Speaker 1: doesn't because it would only be their second loss, and

2649
02:22:32,680 --> 02:22:36,360
Speaker 1: and you know they and apparently their first loss doesn't

2650
02:22:36,360 --> 02:22:38,720
Speaker 1: even count anymore as far as the College Football Committee

2651
02:22:38,800 --> 02:22:44,959
Speaker 1: is concerned. Other than that, Iowa USC. You know, USC

2652
02:22:45,160 --> 02:22:48,400
Speaker 1: still has the outside chance. Iowa's lost. Iowa had it all,

2653
02:22:48,520 --> 02:22:51,119
Speaker 1: it was there for the taken. If they beat Oregon.

2654
02:22:51,200 --> 02:22:54,560
Speaker 1: This game is a whole, but it's a big a

2655
02:22:54,600 --> 02:22:57,880
Speaker 1: lot different. It suddenly becomes a playoff game. Now does

2656
02:22:57,959 --> 02:23:00,800
Speaker 1: Iowa know it's over? And if they do know it's over,

2657
02:23:01,240 --> 02:23:05,400
Speaker 1: USC could pace them. The only other game that might

2658
02:23:05,520 --> 02:23:09,360
Speaker 1: be intriguing to keep an eye on, of course, is

2659
02:23:09,400 --> 02:23:14,199
Speaker 1: Georgia and Texas. Texas can't lose, they have to keep winning.

2660
02:23:15,200 --> 02:23:19,000
Speaker 1: This game's at Georgia. There's been a part of me

2661
02:23:19,080 --> 02:23:22,560
Speaker 1: that's wondered, what does all the arch manning commentary of

2662
02:23:22,600 --> 02:23:24,640
Speaker 1: the last two months. What happens to all of it?

2663
02:23:25,120 --> 02:23:31,520
Speaker 1: If suddenly Texas beach Georgia this week, beach Texas A

2664
02:23:31,560 --> 02:23:33,320
Speaker 1: and M in the last game of the year, and

2665
02:23:33,480 --> 02:23:36,680
Speaker 1: is sitting there at ten and two, and suddenly, with

2666
02:23:36,800 --> 02:23:41,240
Speaker 1: wins over Georgia and Texas A and M, they're probably

2667
02:23:41,280 --> 02:23:45,120
Speaker 1: a top ten team if that's what happens. Oh, by

2668
02:23:45,160 --> 02:23:49,480
Speaker 1: the way, so that's anyway. Let's see what arch Manning

2669
02:23:49,480 --> 02:23:52,400
Speaker 1: looks like. Let's see if the Georgia defense. You know,

2670
02:23:52,720 --> 02:23:55,440
Speaker 1: I think Georgia can score on anybody. They've proven that

2671
02:23:55,440 --> 02:23:57,280
Speaker 1: that offense has turned out to be pretty good this year.

2672
02:23:59,040 --> 02:24:03,320
Speaker 1: This Texas defense show up and slow down Georgia. Obviously.

2673
02:24:04,000 --> 02:24:06,360
Speaker 1: The good news is this is the primetime game and

2674
02:24:06,400 --> 02:24:08,359
Speaker 1: we'll all have a lot of time.

2675
02:24:08,200 --> 02:24:08,600
Speaker 2: To watch it.

2676
02:24:08,640 --> 02:24:12,520
Speaker 1: So with that, let's go Canes and I'll see you

2677
02:24:12,520 --> 02:24:12,920
Speaker 1: next week.