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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio Happy Friday. I'm Tracy B. Wilson.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Frying. This week we talked about Project paper Clip,

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Speaker 1: also known as Operation paper Clip, and we have once

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Speaker 1: again come to those, uh, one of those points where

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Speaker 1: by the time people here this behind the scenes, this

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Speaker 1: issue will be totally solved. But at the moment it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a mystery. When I will get uh,

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Speaker 1: the episode about some specific scientists and engineers and other

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Speaker 1: specialists who are part of this program done. I it'll

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Speaker 1: probably be the next episode. Um, but number one, I'm

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Speaker 1: getting my second COVID vaccine tomorrow. Number two, you and

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Speaker 1: I are gonna take a break. The show is not

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Speaker 1: taking a break. Br each you won't even know we're

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Speaker 1: not here but right because we have have backfilled and

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Speaker 1: made sure we have new episodes ready to go. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it just means that I don't want to promise that

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Speaker 1: the next the literal second half of this episode might

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Speaker 1: be about Project paper Clip scientists. Um yeah, it really

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Speaker 1: did become clear to me at about three o'clock yesterday afternoon. Oh,

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Speaker 1: this is not going to just be one episode. It's

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Speaker 1: gonna have to be too. And unlike normally when I'm

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Speaker 1: doing a two part something, both parts are not already written,

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Speaker 1: only one of them is. It happens once in a while.

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Speaker 1: I read two different books as part of this research.

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Speaker 1: So in addition to all the books that we mentioned

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Speaker 1: at the very end of the episode that we're written

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Speaker 1: in the like the seventies, eighties, and nineties, UM, I

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Speaker 1: also read Annie Jacobson's Operation paper Clip, the secret intelligence

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Speaker 1: program that brought Nazi scientists to America, and that came out.

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Speaker 1: And I also read Brian Crim's Our Germans Project paper

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Speaker 1: Clip and the National Security State, and that came out

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Speaker 1: in UM. And both of those books were really possible

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Speaker 1: because so much information about all of this has been

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Speaker 1: declassified in the years since the first books about it

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Speaker 1: were written. UM, so people who want to research this

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Speaker 1: have a lot more available information UH now than before. Also,

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Speaker 1: UH as I was reading particularly Annie Jacobson's book because

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Speaker 1: she profiles a lot of the specific scientists who were

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Speaker 1: really the most notorious. UM. There are a lot of

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Speaker 1: just horrific atrocities that some of the people who either

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Speaker 1: made their way to the US or were considered to

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Speaker 1: be brought to the US were involved in. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit mind boggling, I know. For me, even

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Speaker 1: though I have have known that this was an ongoing thing,

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Speaker 1: I still have those moments where I go, we're still

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Speaker 1: uncovering stuff. Yeah, this far later especially, I think it

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Speaker 1: feels especially surprising because there has been so much scholarship

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Speaker 1: around World War two, post World War two, all of

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Speaker 1: these things, and yet we continue to have new information appear,

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Speaker 1: and we have to continue to acknowledge that some information

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Speaker 1: is gone. Yeah, um, which is just a little bit

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Speaker 1: tricky to wrap one's head around. I think. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The mental gymnastics even at the time that um that

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Speaker 1: the people involved with planning this program had to kind

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Speaker 1: of go through too, to move from the idea of

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Speaker 1: will interview and work with people while they're still in

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Speaker 1: Germany too, will bring people to the US for a

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Speaker 1: temporary like let's say, six month contract, they will be supervised,

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Speaker 1: and then they'll go back in Germany. UH. And then

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Speaker 1: to go from that to UH these scientists can get

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Speaker 1: American citizenship basically taking up spots or getting magical new

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Speaker 1: spots that could have been given to somebody who had

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Speaker 1: been displaced by the war, somebody who had survived the Holocaust. Um,

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Speaker 1: I I don't know. Sometimes people get mad when we

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Speaker 1: say our personal opinions on the show, my personal opinions.

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Speaker 1: Whatever national security concern that was used to justify that

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Speaker 1: was not enough, Like, no, there were other choices that

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Speaker 1: could have been made. Uh. Yeah, it's just it's a

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Speaker 1: weird thing. It's also a good I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's a good reminder. It's a reminder to me that, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, every big thing, whether it is a conspiracy

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Speaker 1: or a great movement or any any other kind of

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Speaker 1: watershed event or or organization in history, is composed of

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Speaker 1: a bunch of humans who are fallible and who can

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Speaker 1: talk themselves into things that they sort of intellectually might

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Speaker 1: know they should not. But somehow psychologically we're able to

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Speaker 1: get over some fairly weird barriers at times. Um yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's always a difficult thing to try to put yourself

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Speaker 1: in that head space of like, I don't know, how

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Speaker 1: do you get to know? I think it's okay, this

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Speaker 1: guy is important enough that even though he's horrible, we

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Speaker 1: want him on our side. What But it's happened many times,

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Speaker 1: so we know that like that that mental shift can

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Speaker 1: happen for people that we might consider very smart and

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Speaker 1: well thinking. Um yeah, that's always That's where it gets

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Speaker 1: really murky and slightly terrifying for me, because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not always well thinking. What am I capable of? Right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Most likely the literal next thing people are going to

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Speaker 1: hear right now is more on the same subject. We'll see,

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Speaker 1: we shall see. So when we left off our previous

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Speaker 1: half of this, behind the scenes, we weren't sure what

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Speaker 1: was coming next, and it was like, it might be

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Speaker 1: an episode on people who were involved in Operation paper Clip,

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Speaker 1: but we don't really know, and we're both going to

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Speaker 1: take a week off. We have now had a week

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Speaker 1: off and the mystery is solved. Did indeed follow the

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Speaker 1: previous episode on Operation paper Clip with an episode on

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Speaker 1: four people who were part of it? Which is just

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Speaker 1: a whole weird thing. And it's always it's always weird

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Speaker 1: when we have a week off and we come back

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Speaker 1: to look at things that we started working on before

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Speaker 1: we left. It's particularly weird to do that and then

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Speaker 1: also have an earlier episode that is already recorded and

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Speaker 1: is connected to the thing that we took a week off.

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Speaker 1: In the middle of working on It's also just weird

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Speaker 1: to take a week off this point, right, I mean, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's weird, and like it's exciting. Yeah. My week

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Speaker 1: off was largely a week dedicated to doing things I

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Speaker 1: just haven't had the capacity to do while also working,

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Speaker 1: so like thoroughly cleaning the kitchen, nice, calling to make

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Speaker 1: appointments for things that need to be done around our house,

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Speaker 1: things like that. See I I went to Disney World. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: once we once we hit fully vaccinated status, I felt okay, going, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you are fully vaccinated, and as of when we are

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Speaker 1: recording this, I will be fully vaccinated tomorrow. It's really exciting.

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Speaker 1: It is, it's actually been. It's kind of funny, right,

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Speaker 1: We had talked about it. My husband and I like, okay,

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Speaker 1: we are planning a trip um maybe once we reach

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Speaker 1: fully vaccinated status. In that that brief time time between

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Speaker 1: when we're fully vaccinated and when we leave, we should

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Speaker 1: like go out and test the waters. Right, we should

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Speaker 1: go to a restaurant. We should maybe just go to

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Speaker 1: like a mall and walk around and see how that feels.

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Speaker 1: Because Disney is like crowds, I mean, even with the

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Speaker 1: reduced capacity that they're doing. We kind of were a

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Speaker 1: little afraid and built in for ourselves. If we get

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Speaker 1: there and we're there for two days and we freak out,

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Speaker 1: we can come home and it's okay, like we'll just

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Speaker 1: get in the car and come home. Um. But we

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Speaker 1: didn't get around to doing any of that because we

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Speaker 1: had a lot of other stuff coming up and like,

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Speaker 1: as you know, anytime you're trying to get ready to

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Speaker 1: go on vacation, you're getting a million work things squared away.

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Speaker 1: So we didn't. So it was a little bit of

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Speaker 1: like here's the deep end, um, but it was lovely.

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Speaker 1: I had to give Disney World some kudos because they are,

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Speaker 1: for for the most part in our experience, they are

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Speaker 1: definitely enforcing masking guidelines and and distancing the way they're

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Speaker 1: handling queues for rides. I hope they do it forever, um,

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Speaker 1: because you're people aren't cramming up against each other and

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Speaker 1: it's a much more enjoyable experience. Yeah, which is all

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Speaker 1: lighter fair than our show this week. Yeah, so this

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Speaker 1: week was not lighter fair at all. And um, it

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Speaker 1: was a tough one to work on, not just because

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Speaker 1: of the horrific aspects of uh of what happened in

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Speaker 1: in Nazi Germany and German occupied territories during World or two. Like,

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Speaker 1: in addition to that, just sort of reading about these

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Speaker 1: horrific things. A lot of the information about all of

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Speaker 1: this is just really spread out and among all of

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Speaker 1: these different sources, and so sort of piecing things together

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Speaker 1: and confirming things, um was more time consuming and unwieldy

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Speaker 1: than it often is. Like they're like, like we said

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Speaker 1: in the episode itself, like there's a ton of information

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Speaker 1: about Werner Ron Brown. Some of it doesn't reference the

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Speaker 1: fact that there were any questions about his Nazi involvement

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Speaker 1: at all, which is a little weird, but like, there's

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Speaker 1: just a ton of it. But for the other folks

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Speaker 1: that we talked about, there was just took a lot

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Speaker 1: more digging and cross referencing to try to make sure

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Speaker 1: that I had everything right and to like reference back

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Speaker 1: to primary documents as much as possible. Um, it was

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Speaker 1: just it was all kind of a tangle, and deciding

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Speaker 1: which people to talk about also kind of a challenge.

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Speaker 1: I knew obviously I was going to talk about Berner

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Speaker 1: von Brown, like that was a given from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: but like deciding which other people to talk about on

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Speaker 1: the show was a little trickier. Yeah, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: just one of those things where I I can't help

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Speaker 1: I can't quite shut down my Like I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it's an empathy synaps or what, but like, I

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Speaker 1: just I can't I can't wrap my head around how

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Speaker 1: people can do some of the things that were done

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Speaker 1: in that we talked about, UM and still sleep at night.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's hard. Was most of your process of

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Speaker 1: elimination to select the ones that we talked about about

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Speaker 1: level of available information or did you edit like to

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Speaker 1: try to keep it balanced and not too horrific but

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Speaker 1: still indicative of the situation. Yeah, I wanted to um

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Speaker 1: provide some more detail about some of the folks that

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Speaker 1: we had talked about in the Operation paper Clip episode. UM,

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Speaker 1: so that that was a deciding factor. The availability of

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Speaker 1: information was also a factor because in some cases it

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Speaker 1: was like, here is just a paragraph of this person

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Speaker 1: and what they were suspected of and what they did

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Speaker 1: as part of Operation paper Clip, and it was just

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Speaker 1: like wasn't really enough to really explain or give context.

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Speaker 1: It was sort of like here's four sentences summing this up, Um,

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Speaker 1: and then I really went back and forth about Hubertus

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Speaker 1: struggled because he um, I feel like he has some

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Speaker 1: some question marks. And there are a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: who were just absolutely convinced that he was directly involved

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Speaker 1: with or at least new extreme details about all of

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Speaker 1: these experiments, and that as a result, um, he should

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Speaker 1: just sort of be stricken from the honors and awards

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Speaker 1: that that he earned during his his career. And then

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Speaker 1: there are other people who were like, all of this

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Speaker 1: is really circumstantial. Some of the things some of the

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Speaker 1: folks that have written about him have, like, as I

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Speaker 1: said in the episode, conflated multiple different German institute says

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Speaker 1: one thing when it seems like they were not actually

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Speaker 1: operating that way. But then also like his the fact

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Speaker 1: that he has continued to be removed from the names

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Speaker 1: of honors and awards and things like that. That's something

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Speaker 1: that has continued to be discussed into like the last

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Speaker 1: five years. So I felt like I couldn't just skip

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Speaker 1: over him because I felt like I had the least

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Speaker 1: clear opinion about what his involvement actually was by the

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Speaker 1: time I was done researching it. Well, it becomes a

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Speaker 1: good indicator right of the complexity of unfurling all of this,

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Speaker 1: particularly when we know that a lot of things have

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Speaker 1: been edited, stricken from the record, redacted, etcetera. His case,

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Speaker 1: I think really is like I said, it makes a

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Speaker 1: good example of like, this is not easy history to

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Speaker 1: pull apart. Mm hmm. I think for a lot of us,

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Speaker 1: UM would really like to believe that had we been

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Speaker 1: alive in Germany in the nineteen thirties, if we were

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Speaker 1: basically told you're going to join the Nazi Party or

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Speaker 1: you're gonna like be on the list of people who

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Speaker 1: are going to be targeted, I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: us like safe in our safe as in station marks

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Speaker 1: is not that's safe for a lot of people. But like,

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of us want to believe the

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Speaker 1: best in ourselves that we would be like, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: never joining the Nazi Party. You're just gonna have to

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Speaker 1: kill me, and like the reality is that that's not

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Speaker 1: the decision that a lot of people wind up making, UM.

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Speaker 1: And so it's like it seems likely to me that yeah,

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Speaker 1: probably there were a lot of people that came through

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Speaker 1: Operation paper Clip who had basically been like I'm signing

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Speaker 1: my name to this piece of paper so that my

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Speaker 1: family and I have a chance of surviving this war.

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Speaker 1: And they had no, oh, no other involvement in the

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Speaker 1: Nazi Party really, but like there were definitely a lot

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Speaker 1: of others who were either involved in or or highly

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Speaker 1: complicit and horrific, horrific things. Some of these were never

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Speaker 1: going to know the truth. A lot of them were

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Speaker 1: never going to know the truth, which is always a

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Speaker 1: hard thing to accept. Right. I feel like that is

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Speaker 1: a downer place to end this week's behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's history is a downer sometimes. Like whenever

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Speaker 1: we say that, we get people who email us to uh,

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Speaker 1: to let us know that they know that, Yes, history

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Speaker 1: is often horrific in parts. Um So I think the

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Speaker 1: next thing I work on, I will try to pick

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Speaker 1: something that is a little less horrific. Pepper yeah. Um So,

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Speaker 1: if you would like to write to us for history

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Speaker 1: podcasts that I heart radio dot com. Uh. We're also

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Speaker 1: on social media at missed in History. Whatever it's coming

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Speaker 1: up for folks's weekends. I hope that says pleasant and

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Speaker 1: RESTful as possible. Um. If you're working again, I hope

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Speaker 1: everyone is great to you at your job and We'll

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Speaker 1: be back soon with classics and new episodes stuff you

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Speaker 1: missed in his street. Class is a production of I

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Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit

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Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. H