1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Thing from my Heart Radio. Today we're exploring issues here 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: in New York that connect to larger ones around the country. 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: Our guests are Michael Cecitski from the New York Civil 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: Liberties Union and Catherine Wilde. I spoke with Kathy Wilde 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: back in May when things looked dismal for New York City. 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: As the President and CEO of the Partnership for New 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 1: York City, Kathy is one of the smartest and most 9 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: connected people I know. She's in close contact with the 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: city's top CEO s, and now a year later, I 11 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: wanted to check in with her to get a sense 12 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: of what she's hearing, but first a closer look at 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: another issue closely related to New York City's finances and 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: city safety, police reform. Michael Cecitski is a lawyer at 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 1: the New York Civil Liberties Union. One of the nyc 16 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: l us top priorities is to ensure a more equitable 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: justice system by addressing systemic police violence, and Michael leads 18 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: its Police Transparency and Accountability campaign. The n y c 19 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: l U is in the process of requesting police discipline 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: records from around the state, requests made possible by the 21 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: state legislatures. Recently, peal of New York Civil Rights Law 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: Section fifty A, which previously kept the disciplinary records of 23 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: police officers hidden. Was this provision of the New York 24 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 1: State Civil Rights Law that put New York at the 25 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: back of the pack when it comes to transparency on 26 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: police misconduct. So this was a law that said that 27 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: records of police misconduct, whether their complaints against officers, whether 28 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: they're investigated, whether there's any kind of accountability, essentially a 29 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: state secret um and the public was not able to 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: know whether or not the systems that we have in 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 1: place to hold officers to account for that misconduct or 32 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: working because we just couldn't access any of those records. 33 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 1: So it first came about in the nineteen seventies. Why 34 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: why do you think so? The idea was that defense 35 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: attorneys were doing their jobs, so police officers were upset 36 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: at the fact that they were being called to testify 37 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: in cases, and defense attorneys would look at whether there 38 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: was a record of misconduct and that officer's history, had 39 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: they made bad arrests in similar cases before? Were they 40 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: ever accused of lying on the stand or on official reports, 41 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: and they would use those bad acts to question the 42 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: credibility of the officer testifying. Exactly. So, when fifty eight 43 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: was first passed, it was justified in that lens of 44 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: trying to prevent defense attorneys from going on fishing expeditions 45 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: in the course of doing their jobs and representing their clients. 46 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: But over time it morphed into something completely different, and 47 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 1: it became the go to excuse that police departments would 48 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: point to to withhold any kind of record of officer misdeeds. Now, 49 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: was there a person or an institution or both that 50 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: we're spearheading this back in the seventies, Was there somebody 51 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: ramming this down the legislature's throat. It was police unions, 52 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 1: police departments that were leaving the charge on this, and 53 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: it was with a very receptive legislature. There was not 54 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: a lot of organized opposition to this proposal when it 55 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: came about, and maybe in part that's because it was 56 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: envisioned as this narrower approach to dealing with the specific 57 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: case of officers on the witness stand. But it was 58 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: at a time where New York and other states were 59 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: starting to pass freedom of information laws. Freedom of Information 60 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: Acts to make more public records open and accessible, and 61 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 1: the was one of the first areas where we saw 62 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: police union start to push back on that trend of 63 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: making more government records available to the public. Where is 64 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: fifty A at now in New York? I mean it 65 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: was repealed, was repealed and then something happened or did 66 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: they did they litigate that? Or what? Fifty A journey? 67 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: It's a long and tortured one. Fifty A started to 68 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: get applied more and more outside the courtroom context and 69 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: as the blanket response to public records requests going into 70 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 1: the NYPD and other police departments, and we saw a 71 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: dramatic expansion of its use in the past five ten years, 72 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: largely under the Blasio administration, where the NYPD started to 73 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: withhold just summary redacted information on disciplinary outcomes for officers. 74 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: They used it to justify with holding data like use 75 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: of for statistics and more and more. They were fighting 76 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: these efforts in the courts to expand the scope of 77 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: fifty A make it impossible to get any kind of 78 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: access to those records. They wanted to just broaden the 79 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: scope of fifty as much as they could exactly. They 80 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: wanted to make the supply and context that were entirely 81 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: unheard of when this law was first enacted in the seventies. 82 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: So the case that ultimately led to its most dramatic 83 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: expansion back in the n y c l U submitted 84 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: to foil request with the NYPD. We asked for decisions 85 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: from the n y p d S trial room that 86 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: were redacted, didn't have officer names, are identifying information. We 87 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: just wanted to see what the reasoning was of NYPD 88 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: trial judges in reaching their recommendations on whether or not 89 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: to hold an officer accountable, recommend discipline against them, and 90 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: basically just understand what the process was. The NYPD said, no, 91 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: we're not going to give you these records because even 92 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: if we take officer names off of it, fifty A 93 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: prevents us from telling you any of this information. And 94 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: so if I'm not mistaken, what was originally wanting to 95 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: redact with the names of officers specifically who might do 96 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: fear retribution or their records might fairly or unfairly derail prosecution. 97 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: Then it became they expanded it too. We don't want 98 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: you to know anything, not just the names. We don't 99 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: want you to know anything, right, exactly as it was written, 100 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: applied specifically to personnel records used to evaluate performance, and 101 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: what they tried to do was take a very expansive 102 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: read of what counts as a personnel record. And because 103 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: of the way that the statute was written, they also 104 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: argue that there was no kind of out for them 105 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: to just take an officer name off the file and 106 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: release the underlying record or just basic summary information on 107 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: the cases. They took the position that no disclosure was permitted, 108 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: and that's ultimately what the State Court of Appeals held 109 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: in in our lawsuit. They said that fifty A, unlike 110 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: all of the other kind of exemptions that typically apply 111 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: in public records laws, actually blocks police departments from releasing 112 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: anything that's related to an officer's disciplinary or misconduct records, 113 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: and basically punted to the legislature to take action and said, 114 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: if you want this problem fixed, the legislature needs to 115 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: fix it. Once fifty A was repealed and the remains 116 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,679 Speaker 1: repealed correct, Oh, there's lots of litigation. There was federal litigation. 117 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: The Second Circuit Court of Appeals just a couple of 118 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: weeks ago tossed out of police union lawsuit from New 119 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: York city trying to block the publication of disciplinary records 120 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: were they published. So the city had planned to publish 121 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: those records until this litigation stopped them from doing so. 122 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: But before the litigation even began, the NYC l you 123 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: obtained a database of disciplinary records from the Civilian Compoint 124 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: Review Board, this independent entity in New York City that 125 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: investigates certain allegations of police misconduct. And we posted the 126 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: database that we received from that agency on our website, 127 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: so you can look up the three hundred thousand plus 128 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: complains dating back to the nineteen eighties that are in 129 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: those records. But you know, that's only a slice of 130 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: the records that exist, because that is just the ccrb 131 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: S files. We haven't seen the records from the NYPD 132 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: itself yet, but with this ruling from the Court of Appeals, 133 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: we now expect that hopefully within the next couple of weeks, 134 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: we'll be able to see that information go up online. 135 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: You have faith that you're going to be getting unedited 136 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: on redacted information. I'm assuming when they sense that the 137 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: fifty is going to be repealed that they try to 138 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: do all kinds of things to prepare for that, to 139 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: maintain the lack of transparency. What's happening in New York 140 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: the NYPD following the repeal of fifty A, they said 141 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: that they were going to create this database, they were 142 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: going to put the records up online. I don't have 143 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: confidence that it is going to be the full universe 144 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: of records, and I do think that they're going to 145 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: be selective about trying to find whatever existing exceptions in 146 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: the state free of information law. They're going to find 147 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: as much ground for themselves as they can to withhold 148 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 1: certain categories of records. But we're not just relying on 149 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: the department itself to make the records of llable. One 150 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: of the things that the ny c LU has done 151 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: in recent months is send a series of public records 152 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: request to police departments across the state, demanding that in 153 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: accordance with state law. Now these are public records, we 154 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: demand access to them, and the departments that are not 155 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: producing them. You know, we have a ton of law 156 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: firms that we're working in partnership with us on to 157 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: make sure that we have the ability to go into 158 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: court and make sure that now that you know fifty 159 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: as gone, we have a legal right to see these records. 160 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: What troubles me there is that Let's say there's a 161 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: piece of evidence like a tape or a photograph or whatever, 162 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: that the police themselves are the only ones with a 163 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: copy of that evidence. So what if the police turn 164 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: around and go, no, we're not going to release it 165 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: like like make us and there's no other copy of 166 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: its somewhere else that another entity could release. Does that 167 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: trouble you that they might just say, fuck you, We're 168 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: not going to release that. It's absolutely concerning. I think 169 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: what we have going for us as a starting point 170 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: is the fact that with fifty A gone, the rest 171 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: of the kind of framework for getting access to these 172 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: types of records, the law is very much on our side. 173 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: So if we have those disputes to end up going 174 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: to court, if the police department is saying we don't 175 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: want to turn over these records, we have really solid 176 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: legal footing to go in and argue for why those 177 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: records should be made available. But to the broader point, 178 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: I do think it needs to be part of a 179 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: broader conversation around how we're structuring police accountability systems to 180 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: be more independent of the department itself. So we're looking 181 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: at what it could take to have entire agencies that 182 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: are set up with real disciplinary power that are not 183 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: beholden to a police department structure that would exist in 184 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: an agency like a civilian review board, that would exist 185 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: somewhere else, so that we're mitigating the risk of putting 186 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: all of this information being kept in the hands of 187 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: people who have a real clear interest in not making 188 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: that information public. And that's true of disciplinary records. It's 189 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: one of our concerns with things like body camera footage, 190 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: like if you want to have officers wearing body cameras 191 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: and recording interactions to improve transparency, then you should have 192 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: someone who's not the police department be the one who 193 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: decides on when those records are being published and released. 194 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: It's as true for disciplinary records as it is for 195 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: body cameras and any other kind of tool meant to 196 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: improve transparency. You can't rely on the police themselves to 197 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: be transparent when they've been fighting against those basic measures 198 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: for as long as they have. Who are the people 199 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: in the legislature that helped bring about the repeal off 200 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: on the legislative side who took the lead on this 201 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: were members of the state, Black, Puerto Rican, Hispanic and 202 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: Asian Legislative Caucus, the b p h A. These are 203 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: legislators of color who have been really at the forefront 204 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: of criminal justice reform, police reform, and really helped make 205 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: sure that this legislation moved through the legislative process in 206 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: as strong reform as it did. But I would say 207 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: the real heroes of this movement, the people who ensured 208 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: that this repeal moved forward. We're are a lot of 209 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,599 Speaker 1: the families of people who had lost loved ones to 210 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: police violence. The mother of Eric Garner, the mother of 211 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: Marley Graham. These were some of the champions who from 212 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: their own personal experiences, had been fighting for years to 213 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: get some basic measure of transparency and accountability from police departments, 214 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: and always saw fifty A as one of the main 215 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: obstacles being used to not even give them any measure 216 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: of closure knowing whether or not the police department had 217 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: thoroughly investigated these cases. And they led the charge on 218 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: this issue and on so many of the other issues 219 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,559 Speaker 1: that the state legislature ended up passing last year in 220 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: the wake of the George Floyd protests. What about Cuoma 221 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: was he in favor of repealing so he hadn't taken 222 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: much of a position on it until we saw the 223 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: George Floyd protests really pick up momentum, and we saw 224 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: the instances of really horrific police violence directed against protesters. 225 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: But as as those protests were unfolding, we heard a 226 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: call from the Governor's office to say, the legislature needs 227 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: to pass something. They need to fix the statute. And 228 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: you know, in that maybe week two weeks of kind 229 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: of frantic negotiations putting together a police reform package, this 230 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: became the centerpiece of it. Michael Sisitski is a lawyer 231 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: at the New York Civil Liberties Union. If you like 232 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: conversations with people who are exploring ways to save America's 233 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: great cities, they would go to our archives and listen 234 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: to my conversation with Tom Wright from New York City's 235 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: Regional Plan Association. Right joined Corey Johnson and the Code 236 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: Alimas pre Pandemic to talk about ways to cut unnecessary 237 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 1: costs related to the subway. The entire system is broken 238 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: from front to end. The procurement process in New York 239 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: State is so ridiculous that contractors will be hired to 240 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: build a piece of the Second Avenue subway. They will 241 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: know that it's going to change, but it's going to 242 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: take a year for the procurement process to effectuate that change. 243 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: So they build something knowing that at the end of 244 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: it they're going to be told to rip it up 245 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 1: and rebuild it again under some new way. But they 246 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: have to do it and the contractors if they don't 247 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: do is happening Here my conversation with Tom Wright, Corey Johnson, 248 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: and Nicole Julinas at Here's the Thing dot org after 249 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: the Break, Michael Sisitski and I discuss whether the calls 250 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: to defund the police will help keep communities, especially communities 251 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: of color safe. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to 252 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. Activists around the country have been calling 253 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: for defund the police. As a result, more than twenty cities, 254 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: including Austin, Minneapolis, and Seattle, have made efforts to reduce 255 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: their police budgets and increase funds for social services. However, 256 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: Michael Sasitski says that's not really working anywhere yet. I 257 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: can say some of the places that you noted are 258 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: places that have made bigger strides than say New York, 259 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: and the kind of defunding that we've seen in those 260 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: departments there is a shift away from over reliance on 261 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: police as kind of the default solution to every societal ill. 262 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: But it's all very much a work in progress, and 263 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: I think part of what we're grappling with as we're 264 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: trying to identify, you know, how do you shift police 265 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: out of homeless outreach, out of mental health responses, out 266 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: of their kind of ever present presence in schools is 267 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, we are not able to point to a 268 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: real model of the place that has done everything right, 269 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: but there are individual pieces that we're trying to replicate 270 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: and build on. And you know, you look outside the 271 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: US and you see that there are entire countries that 272 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,280 Speaker 1: have fewer instances of police killings of members of the 273 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: public in an entire year than a police department here 274 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: would get through in the course of a week. And 275 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: you look at how they've structured these departments to have 276 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: less of a focus on officers playing the role of 277 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: kind of warriors against communities, of this war on crime 278 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: mentality where officers are heavily armed, they're given surplus military equipment, 279 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: And it's this idea that in most places of the 280 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: US police are so heavily militarized, and they incorporate that 281 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: militarization framework into every aspect of their work. You know, 282 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: one thing that always strikes me about this issue in 283 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: New York especially is this notion that, you know, the 284 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: President of the United States, the only individual who was 285 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: elected to office by all of the people in this country, 286 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: is the commander in chief of the military. We have 287 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: civilian control of the military, and I'm wondering if the 288 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: same thing applies to the City of New York, where 289 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: we have civilian control of the police department. Why does 290 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: someone like the Blasio and de Blasio, of course, has 291 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: a very troubled relationship with the police department, I mean, 292 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: turning their back on him at funerals and stuff, whether 293 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: in there. These are the things that they do on 294 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: the record, And I don't know why it is the 295 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 1: police have been allowed to achieve this kind of supra 296 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: regulatory status within the government of the City of New York. 297 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: There's a laws and regulations that apply to the fire 298 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: Department and to the Sanitation Department into other city services, 299 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: and none of that applied. The police are like the Kremlin. 300 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: It's it's its own fiefdom inside the city. Would you 301 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: agree with that, I would agree. I mean, in theory, 302 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: the Police Commissioner is an agency official of just like 303 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: any other executive agency in New York City in theory, 304 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: accountable to the mayor. In practice, what we've seen is 305 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: deference given to this agency unlike the difference shown to 306 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: any other New York City entity of government. The NYPD 307 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: has kind of unique among city agencies, basically been given 308 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: the authority to exercise a veto over city Council legislation 309 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: and other forms of oversight. You know, I think back 310 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: to one of the first campaigns that I worked on 311 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: at the end my c l U when I started 312 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: back in was this package of bills called the Right 313 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: to No Act, which were really basic measures in the 314 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: city Council. They were requirements that officers identify themselves, give 315 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: out business cards and encounters, let people know like what 316 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 1: the reasons are for stops, and to let people know 317 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: when they're being asked to consent to searches. Really basic stuff, 318 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: not actually changing anything fundamental about what officers can or 319 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: can't do, but being more transparent in interactions, which you know, 320 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 1: in theory could help improve police community relationship because you're 321 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: actually getting to know who these officers are. You're understanding 322 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: what these encounters entail. I wonder how frustrating it is 323 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: for the incoming chief of the New York City Police 324 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: Department to realize that the head of the union has 325 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: more power than you do, that the head of the union, 326 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: the police union, is that one really calling the shots. 327 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: What do you think the Blasio did or did not 328 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: do during his term? He's almost done with his second term. 329 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: What did you think he did or did not do 330 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: to help manage the police or did he not even 331 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: bother to try to manage the police? Yeah? I think 332 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: there was maybe an opening where this is someone who 333 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: ran on a platform about ending the tail of two 334 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: cities in New York, on reigning in unconstitutional stops, on 335 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: having a police department that would take a fundamentally different 336 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 1: approach than what we saw under Giuliani and Bloomberg. And 337 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: maybe that was the intention for a while, but it 338 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: didn't last long. If that ever was the case. The 339 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,959 Speaker 1: point at which officers turned their backs on the mayor 340 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: at that funeral seemed to be the moment where this 341 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: administration gave up on trying to get control of the 342 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: police department and We saw from that point forward efforts 343 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: to block the City Council from passing really basic police 344 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: transparency measures. We saw the administration basically object to any 345 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: attempt at legislative oversight of the department, and we saw 346 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: the administration take its new interpretation of fifty A to 347 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 1: start blocking and withholding more records of police accountability. This 348 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: is a mayor who, as his first police commissioner, brought 349 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: in the architect of broken windows policing from the Giuliani 350 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: era and has stayed committed to that approach, which just 351 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: proportionately leads to more police contact and criminalization of poor 352 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 1: people in communities of color, and has never really diverged 353 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: from that track. So, you know, there's not been really 354 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 1: much of a solid effort from the administration that we've 355 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 1: seen here in New York City to actually fundamentally transformed policing. 356 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: A lot of it ended up being more of the same. 357 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: I want to get back to something, which is I'm 358 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: not one of these liberal Democrats who thinks that Obama 359 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: is the lyricist for all of our anthems here in 360 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: the world. But at the same time Obama and I 361 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: agree with him that the phrase defund the police's bad 362 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: optics for this idea of reform. Do you think to 363 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: fund the police is the best wording for that movement? 364 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 1: I think defund is important as a message, and I 365 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: get that there are concerns about the optics, concerns about 366 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: how it lands when you're trying to convey what it means. 367 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: But I think the focus on defunding the police is 368 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: critical because it keeps the focus on the fact that 369 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: police departments have dramatically expanded their budgets, their functions as 370 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: other agencies that are better equipped to handle things like 371 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: public health, education, housing. As all of those agencies have 372 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: been defunded, we have been in consciously putting that money 373 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: into police departments, expanding their scope, expanding their powers. And 374 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: that is at the root of a lot of these problems, 375 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 1: is how much we're over investing in police. But you 376 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: and I get it, But so many Americans, have you 377 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: defund the polices, You're going to abolish the police? Have 378 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: you found that to be true. I've certainly heard that, 379 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: and I think you know it's a complicated call, and 380 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: it's one that does merit really in depth discussion public education, 381 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: and that's on advocates to do the hard work of 382 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: explaining what defund means and why it makes sense, why 383 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: it's going to lead to the types of improvements we 384 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: want to see in other areas and other services. So 385 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: I don't disagree that it is complicated, that it takes 386 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: a lot to move the public needle on this, but 387 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: it is. You know, we talk about defunding the police 388 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: because of the active harm that police are causing and 389 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: inflicting on communities because they have been given such outsize power, 390 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: outsize reese forces, and gets to a point where a 391 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: lot of the calls that come back to reform or 392 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: fixed or all of these things, they've been kind of 393 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: the call for years, and we've seen that they haven't 394 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: produced the types of change that are really needed to 395 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: protect communities from the worst excesses of police violence. Some 396 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: of the reforms that have long been called changes to 397 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: things like use of force policies. You know, if we 398 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: just better document force, if we better regulate tactics like 399 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: chokeholds and banned chokeholds, that we're going to see a 400 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: reduction in their use and against communities. But that hasn't 401 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: borne out. Now. Let me ask you this, in the 402 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: work you do do you cast an eye at other 403 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: countries and other areas of the world and who's getting 404 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: it right in terms of their policing. So we haven't 405 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: done a kind of in depth or I haven't done 406 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: at least an in depth review of how other countries 407 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: structure their police departments. But you know what does kind 408 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: of jump out is the fact that most places outside 409 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: the US don't have as heavily armed and militarized police forces. 410 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: They're not sending in someone who's training is to think 411 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: of themselves as basically a soldier going in to get 412 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: control over a neighborhood or population. You know, you're not 413 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: seeing the level of shootings, the level of force used 414 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,719 Speaker 1: against communities because you're not you know, you're not arming 415 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: the cops in these other places as if they are 416 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: actually part of a military force. Sometimes I only have 417 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: cliches and my fingertips here. But the idea that you know, 418 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail may 419 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: apply to that whole idea of the para militarization of 420 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: the police. But do you believe there are cops out 421 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: there who they want to see those reforms too. I'm 422 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: sure like there are a lot of people who go 423 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: into their profession thinking that, you know, they can make 424 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 1: a positive difference, that they want to see many of 425 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: the reforms that are called for. But the problems, you know, 426 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: are less a about individual officers are though, there are 427 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: problems who have individual officers, but it's more about the 428 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: systems that are in place that block that type of 429 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: movement from happening. You know, you hear a lot about 430 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: the blue Wall of silence. There are these disincentives and 431 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: retaliation against officers that point out when the system is 432 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: not working the way that it supposedly should. What role 433 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: do you think racism plays in the maintenance of police 434 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: practices that we have today. I think it's inescapable. Racism, 435 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: if you look back at the history of policing in 436 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: this country, has been at the core. Policing in the 437 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: US traces its origins back to slave patrols, groups of 438 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: white citizens that came together to control disorder in communities, 439 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: and that disorder was to crack down on black people 440 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: who were kept as slaves and to capt runaway slaves. 441 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: And from those slave patrol origins you started to see 442 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: the template for how many of the country's early police 443 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: forces developed policing following the Civil War was largely focused 444 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: on enforcing Jim Crow restrictions. You see the role that 445 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: police departments have played in suppressing labor movements, suppressing the 446 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: civil rights movement, in enforcing segregation. It's largely been a 447 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: core function of police departments as part of this idea 448 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: of maintaining order and control, that they are there to 449 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: maintain order and control on behalf of white people and 450 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: targeting black and brown people. Do you think it's necessary 451 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: for something as sensitive as the police department to reflect 452 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: the color of the community. I think the what we've 453 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: seen is a pattern of police departments not reflecting the 454 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: makeup of their communities, and I think it's important that 455 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: they make strides to better reflect the communities they come from, 456 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 1: the communities they patrol. I don't think it's anywhere near enough. 457 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: It's good to have diversity, diversity itself cannot be the 458 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: end goal if you're not changing the underlying purpose and 459 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: mission of the department. And what we've seen is as 460 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 1: the rank and file has gotten more diverse in the NYPD, 461 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: you're still not seeing much in terms of senior leadership 462 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: of the departments concern the people calling the shots setting 463 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,120 Speaker 1: the policy people in charge. Yeah, the people in charge 464 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: are not actually reflective of most New Yorkers. I'm always 465 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: mystified as to not that we need quotas, but I'm 466 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: always mystified about the optics of that that the population 467 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: of New York is a plurality of people of color, 468 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: at the police department looks pretty whitey white, white at 469 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: the top. To me, the city is a mess. The 470 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: city is on the precipice of this horrible reckoning in 471 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: terms of its finances, and and I'm assuming just logically 472 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: that's gonna have a tremendous impact on the tech space 473 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: of the city right when they need money most. The 474 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: city is in a free fall economically right now. What 475 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: do you think the impact of that is going to 476 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: be on police reform? Because crime is going up. So 477 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: I think it's it's central to the discussions around what 478 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: to do with the city's budget with the state budget. 479 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: And we saw the first part of these conversations around 480 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: how to handle the fallout of the pandemic in city 481 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: budgeting last year, when the kind of center piece of 482 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: the debate around New York City's budget was what to 483 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: do with the NYPD which there were calls last year 484 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: to defund the NYPD by one billion dollars, which incidentally 485 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: is about the amount by which the NYPD's budget has 486 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: expanded since de Blasio took office. So still returning to 487 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: some realistic level. So do Blasio, who was elected in 488 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: two thoust and you're saying that during de Blasio's term, 489 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: the budget of the police department is going to one 490 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: billion dollars, That's right. The expense budget when he took 491 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: office was around five billion dollar dollars and it got 492 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: up to six billion dollars when we were having this 493 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: conversation last year. Why there was more hiring of thousands 494 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: of officers added to the police force. There is really 495 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: hard to grasp like number because so much of it 496 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: was kept secret of new surveillance technologies and equipment that 497 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: the NYPD was acquiring, new units that were put together. 498 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: You know, we saw the NYPD has touted their Strategic 499 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: Response Group, which is a new unit that was created 500 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: under the Blasio that brought in really expensive and alarming 501 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: to look at military equipment and gear. These are the 502 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: counter terrorism officers who incidentally are also tasked with policing 503 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: protest because for some reason the NYPD has decided that 504 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: First Amendment protected protest is similar enough to counter terrorism 505 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: responsibilities that they're going to put the same militarized officers 506 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: out of the force. But we saw this investment of 507 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: resources into the police department in terms of their budgeting, 508 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 1: and we saw this real dramatic expansion of just how 509 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: much funds we're going into the department. So the call 510 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: last year was to say, you know, as a starting point, 511 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: we need to look at how this rapid growth of 512 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: spending on the police department can be reset a bit 513 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: and take some of that billion dollars that was called 514 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: foreign savings, put it into things like the Department of Health, 515 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: which was struggling, the Department of Homeless Services, which was struggling. 516 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: You know, you look at the NYPD's budget and it 517 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: is more than the budget for the Departments of Health, 518 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: Homeless Services, Housing Preservation, Youth, community Development, and workforce development combined. 519 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: So the needs that are facing New Yorkers as we're 520 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: trying to, you know, look towards recovering from this pandemic, 521 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,479 Speaker 1: are in those areas. That's where the most critical daily 522 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: needs of New Yorkers are not being met. So I 523 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: think we'll be having this conversation again heading into city 524 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: budget season this summer. I don't think the calls for 525 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: divesting from the NYPD budget and reinvesting in these other 526 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: agencies is going to go away anytime soon. I would say, 527 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: state level, a lot of the conversation now around what 528 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,239 Speaker 1: happens with things like can we add state revenue with 529 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: marijuana legalization, for example, And it's certainly something that we're 530 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: advocating for, but with a very kind of specific purpose, 531 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: which is the legislation that's been around in Albany for 532 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,719 Speaker 1: a while, the Marijuana Regulation and Taxation Act. It takes 533 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: a historical look at how policing has impacted communities of color, 534 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: devastated communities of color as part of the War on drugs, 535 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: and says that for the revenue that we're now going 536 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: to be generating from this industry that just yesterday we 537 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: were locking you up for, we're actually going to take 538 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: half of it and reinvested in these communities, which I think, 539 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: you know, is one really critical way to repair harm done, 540 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: but it's also critical to COVID recovery because many of 541 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: the same communities that were devastated by marijuana police saying, 542 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 1: are the same communities that have been hardest hit by 543 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: the pandemic. Now you have been You've commented occasionally about 544 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: surveillance equipment. Give us some examples, if you will. What 545 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: are some of the developments in terms of the police 546 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: use of surveillance equipment that trouble you the most. So, 547 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: the most troubling thing for years was the fact that 548 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 1: we just didn't know what tools and technologies the police 549 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: department had acquired and was deploying against New Yorkers. The 550 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: NYPD would always fight requests for information on contracting, on 551 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: what tools they were buying, on what their capabilities were. 552 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: So last summer that started to change when the New 553 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: York City Council passed what's called the Post Act Public 554 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 1: Oversight of Surveillance Technology, And now we're starting to see 555 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: some basic transparency and reporting on just what the NYPD 556 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: surveillance infrastructure looks like. So if you look at the 557 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: NYPD's website, there's now thirty six different policies that are 558 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: listed that talk about what kind of surveillance capabilities they have. 559 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: There's a lot of lies and misrepresentations in those policies, 560 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: but it's the starting point and we've seen that the 561 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: n y p D has purchased an unknown number of 562 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: mobile X ray bands, for instance, which were developed as 563 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: military tools for deployment in active war zones, and they 564 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: would use it in New York for what They don't 565 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: really say. Their policy is that we may be able 566 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: to use it in counter terrorism purposes to look for explosives, 567 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: but there's not a lot of data on what that 568 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: translates to in practice. We also don't know how many 569 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: of them there are. We do know that they're very expensive. 570 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: Just one unit, it's about eight hundred thousand dollars. So 571 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: that's one technology that we've learned about through litigation. Through 572 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: recent disclosures, we know that the NYPD has space recognition, 573 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: which is hugely problematic. What troubles you about that so 574 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: based recognition. The way that it's worked in practice is 575 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: that it's reasonably effective at identifying white men and not 576 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: so great at producing positive matches on anyone else who's 577 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: subject to the technology. Why is that? Largely because the 578 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: technologies are developed by largely overrepresented groups of white men, 579 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: they're just not effective. They're not really trained to work 580 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: well when looking at other skin tones. What we see 581 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: the NYPD use this technology for it's some really questionable 582 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 1: practices where they've had a policy that allows them to 583 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: manipulate photos before they even run it against their databases. 584 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: You know, one thing that came out and reporting from 585 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: Georgetown Center on Privacy and Technology was they uncovered that 586 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: the nyp D was uploading celebrity lookalike images if they 587 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: didn't have the best quality picture of the suspect that 588 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: they were trying to identify. They would say, and this 589 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: is a real example, well that guy kind of looks 590 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 1: like Woody Harrelson, So let's run a picture of Woody 591 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 1: Harrelson's face into our database and see who that might 592 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 1: produce as a potential match. They would manipulate faces. They 593 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: would edit someone's face, if someone was viewed in profile, 594 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: they would try to recreate like a full image of 595 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: that person's face. We'll gonna have a Meryl Race coming 596 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: up in the completely exhausted and innervated New York City. 597 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: Do you have any hopes that anybody who's assumed to 598 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: be running from there that resetting the police. I'm gonna 599 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: coin that phase now that resetting the police is on 600 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: their menu. I think it's been an issue that's come 601 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: up in a number of the candidates platforms. I've seen 602 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: some discussion of to use your term resetting, to use 603 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: my term defunding that have come up in some of 604 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: the candidate forums that have come up on their platforms. 605 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: But I think it's something where I don't know that 606 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: we'll see what fully needs to be done from my perspective, 607 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: to fundamentally change the way that the NYPD operates. I'm 608 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: not discounting the possibility, but I think a lot of 609 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: it will depend on whether New Yorkers maintain the current 610 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: energy and momentum that we started to see building from 611 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: the George Floyd protest last year when Albany repealed fifty. 612 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: When they passed the police reform bills that were part 613 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,280 Speaker 1: of that package, these were measures that had existed for years, 614 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,879 Speaker 1: they had been installed, there was no real legislative sense 615 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: of urgency to move them. Then you saw New Yorkers 616 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: by the thousands turnout protests demand that some action finally 617 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 1: be taken, and it's led to real sustained conversations beyond 618 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: that about what other kind of shifts we want to 619 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 1: make in the role, the powers, the scope of law enforcement. 620 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 1: And I think if that momentum is able to be maintained, 621 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: if that is carried forward into the next election cycle 622 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: and the one after that, you know we're going to 623 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 1: see continued calls for elected officials, for mayors, for city 624 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,280 Speaker 1: council members, and for police departments to take a different approach. 625 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: But it really is going to be dependent on New 626 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: Yorkers elevating those demands and making the call to reset, 627 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: defund policing a continuous call. What do you say with 628 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: the work you do, which is to expose the wrongdoings 629 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: and to reform the system. I don't like that phrase 630 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: good cops, but what does the warrior from the a 631 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: c l U on behalf of police transparency? What message 632 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: do you have, if any, to the good cops out there. 633 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: I think the message is, we have, as you said, 634 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: often antagonistic relationships because it's our job to make sure 635 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: that the systems that are put in place by our 636 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: government are actually serving the people and benefiting the people. 637 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: And it's often not about attacks on individual cops, although 638 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: there are some individual cops who deserve as much scrutiny 639 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: as they as they can get. But this is about 640 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: making sure that the work that we do is to 641 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: hold government accountable to the ideals that they purport to follow. 642 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: And that's what it is. At the end of the day. 643 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: We have these systems, we are told because they are 644 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: meant to protect the public. They are meant to ensure 645 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: people's well being in safety. And if they're not doing that, 646 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: if they're not serving that purpose, it's our job to 647 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: call them out. Michael Sasitski as a lawyer of the 648 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: New York Civil Liberties Union. His work is focused on 649 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: police reform. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend 650 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,680 Speaker 1: and be sure to follow Here's the thing on the 651 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 652 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,399 Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back, I'll check in with 653 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 1: Catherine Wilde, CEO and president of the Partnership for New 654 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:39,640 Speaker 1: York City about the city's post pandemic future. I'm Alec Baldwin, 655 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: and this is here's the thing. In the early months 656 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: of the pandemic, New York City seemed to be on 657 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: the ropes. Storefronts and restaurants were closed, Broadway was dark, 658 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:56,320 Speaker 1: unemployment claims skyrocketed. Now a year later, things look very different, 659 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,280 Speaker 1: as New York City is slowly coming back to life, 660 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: how wanted to follow up with Katherine Wilde, CEO and 661 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: President of the Partnership for New York City. She's in 662 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 1: close contact with the heads of the city's biggest corporations 663 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,560 Speaker 1: and as such she has an informed outlook on the 664 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: city's finances. Things are substantially better than people thought it 665 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: would be. A year ago in we had a gross 666 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: city economic output of eight hundred and nine billion dollars. 667 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: That is only shrunk by three point four percent during 668 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: the pandemic, which is far less than anybody thought was 669 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: going to happen. And that's for basically three reasons. Number One, 670 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:46,720 Speaker 1: Wall Street and much of our office industry was able 671 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: to immediately transfer to remote operation actually improve their profitability 672 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: and productivity in the process. Number Two, we got tremendous 673 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: a from the federal government starting with the first stimulus, 674 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: and so that while in March and April last year, 675 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: consumer spending dropped dramatically. Today, while we're still in pandemic mode, 676 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: consumer spending is back up to normal levels. It's e 677 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 1: commerce spending more than ever, but that's kept the economy going. 678 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: And finally, we were well positioned for the digital economy 679 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: takeover our key growth sector has been in technology and 680 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: in the technology side of financial services and media. All 681 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: these industries that use technology have been our growth area 682 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: and represent most of our economy. So we've had all 683 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 1: those things going for us and going well. What we 684 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,919 Speaker 1: lost was our brick and mortar economy, retail, travel, and tourism. 685 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: Direct service is small business that represents of our jobs, 686 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: but it's only nine of our economy. So the losses 687 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: there were severe and tended to focus on low wage 688 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: workers and small business. They were severe, but they did 689 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: not take down the whole economy, and our tax roles 690 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: kept growing, and every day were more surprised by state 691 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: and city government not being in a fiscal crisis. Everybody 692 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: was predicting, we're gonna have a fiscal crisis. We've got 693 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: a problem, We've got to raise taxes. We have no 694 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: fiscal crisis. Between the federal aid to the state and 695 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,840 Speaker 1: the city over a hundred billion dollars, thank you, Senator Schumer, 696 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: and the macro economy that has kept going throughout the pandemic, 697 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,439 Speaker 1: we do not have a fiscal crisis, and we had 698 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,919 Speaker 1: no need to raise taxes, even though two weeks ago 699 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,000 Speaker 1: Albany raised taxes for the people that were put out 700 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: of a job. I don't want to say time bomb, 701 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: but of their loom being problems for us in terms 702 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 1: of how to deal with those people in their loss 703 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: of income. I don't think time bomb is inappropriate because 704 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: what happened is the COVID accelerated what we knew was happening. 705 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,280 Speaker 1: You know, work of the future going to robots replacing people, 706 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: et cetera. The COVID accelerated that by maybe as much 707 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: as two decades. So we find ourselves in a situation 708 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: we knew was coming in the distant future has come 709 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: within the last thirteen months. So we have a crisis 710 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: of six hundred and forty two thousand job losses. Those 711 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: are New Yorkers who are probably not prepared for the 712 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: jobs that are available. Ironically, in March, we had postings 713 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: of three hundred and sixteen thousand open jobs, but we 714 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: don't have the people to fill those jobs because of 715 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 1: this skills gap that we've been talking about for years, 716 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:54,960 Speaker 1: but we've done nothing at scale to deal with. What 717 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: should we do about the skills gap? Well, I think 718 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: number one, I think employers have a big opportunity to 719 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: step up and they are beginning to do that with 720 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: a number of programs. JP Morgan has started a program. 721 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: There's other companies that are participating in starting programs to 722 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: one revisit jobs. You know, New York got spoiled. They 723 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,720 Speaker 1: could hire an Ivy League b A for a job 724 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: that could be done by somebody with a community college degree, 725 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: especially in technology areas, and we haven't focused on making 726 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: those marriages with the City University and with others that 727 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: are producing people who could fill those jobs. Got to 728 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 1: change the criteria, and we've got to go to Albany 729 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 1: and get the state Education Department to change their classification 730 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,359 Speaker 1: so that people can be credentialed in these jobs as 731 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,440 Speaker 1: your organization lobbying for them. Absolutely, yes, we are working 732 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: on that and we have been for a couple of years, 733 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,359 Speaker 1: and hopefully things are going to speed up now. So 734 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: this is a fixable problem. The other piece of this 735 00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:01,439 Speaker 1: problem is our immigration policy. Immigration has been cut off 736 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,600 Speaker 1: in recent years, especially in one H one B s 737 00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: and education scholarships and the ability for people to come 738 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 1: here and study, so we have lost a lot of 739 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: the talent pool that was filling those jobs. So it's 740 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: a combination of reforming our immigration policies at the federal 741 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: level and at the local level really going in there. Unfortunately, 742 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: there is a lot of education funding in the stimulus 743 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: package that the federal government has put out. Let's invest 744 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,080 Speaker 1: in that education, and let's do it in partnership with employers. 745 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: This should not be Ivory Tower, get your bachelor's degree. 746 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: This should be get a job. Right. A friend of mine, 747 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,920 Speaker 1: he's got two floors, two fifty employees on Park Avenue 748 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,200 Speaker 1: and that Gold Coast. They're hovering around the fifties and 749 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: sixtie Street. They said, half of them home and then 750 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,080 Speaker 1: up bringing them back, he told me, And he said 751 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: they're going to downsize their lease to half. Now I've 752 00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 1: been told that the residential real estate market is bottoming out. 753 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: Its starting to come up again, because as as people 754 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,799 Speaker 1: have said, in a kind of folkloric way, they've said, well, 755 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, New York, no one can pay for one 756 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 1: bedroom apartment in a nice part of Brooklyn and Manhattan 757 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: or anywhere for that matter. And then the rents come 758 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: down below, some come down below two thousand and a 759 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 1: whole other crop of people that couldn't afford to live 760 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,400 Speaker 1: in your they're coming absolutely, and that is the silver lining. 761 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 1: I talked to a similar Park Avenue guy last week 762 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 1: who told me he just bought two Upper east Side 763 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 1: apartments for his kids at fifty percent off what they 764 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: cost a year and a half ago, so he was 765 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: thrilled with the bargain. It's a long term investment, so 766 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: it's not for speculative resale. But I think, yes, this 767 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: has happened. Remember in the seventy of course, where everybody 768 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: got all those fancy Central Park views for a song. 769 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,240 Speaker 1: New York is affordable to a new crop of people 770 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: now who are going to come, which solves a big 771 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,359 Speaker 1: problem looking for jobs. Looking for jobs, absolutely, but it's 772 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: it solves the problem of gentrification, fear of displacement, and 773 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,759 Speaker 1: if construction costs can come down. You know, it's been 774 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: a seller's market in the office market for years. They 775 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 1: now have a sixteen percent vacancy rate in Manhattan. That's 776 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,879 Speaker 1: a good thing as far as businesses. Absolutely. People tell 777 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 1: me that the commercial real estate market that's in the 778 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,760 Speaker 1: retail market that's still struggling, very weak, very weak. And 779 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: we've got another time bomb coming, which is May first. 780 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: The moratorium on evictions of small business in New York 781 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: ends and that's the point where thirteen fourteen months of 782 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,880 Speaker 1: rent could come due for those small businesses and in 783 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,240 Speaker 1: many cases small landlords of small businesses in neighborhoods throughout 784 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: the city, not just Manhattan, who have not had the 785 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: wherewithal to pay the rent. And that's particularly true, unfortunately, 786 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,960 Speaker 1: as with much of the COVID, particularly impactful to black 787 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: and Hispanic, low income immigrant communities, where you've got small 788 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 1: building owners, you've got small businesses that weren't ready to 789 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,800 Speaker 1: go online, didn't have a website, didn't have the capacity 790 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 1: to meet the demands of the COVID. So this is 791 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:18,839 Speaker 1: going to be a serious problem. And this is where 792 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 1: those job losses really are going to become long term problems. 793 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,000 Speaker 1: The federal aid will not last long enough. We have 794 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 1: to fix this through education and through upgrading the technology 795 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: and the skills of those small business owners. Now you 796 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:40,280 Speaker 1: hear a constant, metronomic call to tax their bitch, tax 797 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,240 Speaker 1: their bitch. And I believe that this is an opinion. 798 00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 1: I'm under an economist, but in my opinion, there should 799 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: be minimum taxes that everybody pays. If I say to 800 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,280 Speaker 1: you that you're in a fifty percent bracket and So therefore, 801 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,239 Speaker 1: on an income of a million dollars, you oh half 802 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: a million dollars in taxes, and I can say to you, 803 00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,239 Speaker 1: you can knock it down by giving away to order 804 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: in fifty dollars to charity, but nothing below that, meaning 805 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 1: you must pay a minimum amount of tax. What do 806 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:08,800 Speaker 1: you think has to happen in the city and in 807 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,840 Speaker 1: the state in terms of tax policy, Well, two weeks 808 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: ago the state has made us the highest tax state 809 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:21,760 Speaker 1: in the nation without looking at the equity arguments. Before 810 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 1: the pandemic, fifty six percent of the people in the 811 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 1: top bracket in New York State were non residents of 812 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:35,920 Speaker 1: the state. Comes the COVID. Suddenly people are working remotely 813 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:41,120 Speaker 1: from Palm Beach or Miami or Austin or wherever, and 814 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,480 Speaker 1: suddenly that talent is telling their companies, we want you 815 00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,319 Speaker 1: to move our job to where we are because the 816 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 1: tax burden. If Biden's proposed tax increases on the wealthy 817 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,280 Speaker 1: also go through, which they probably will to pay for 818 00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,359 Speaker 1: the next infrastructure bill. If those go through, then you're 819 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,480 Speaker 1: going to have a situation where New York professionals at 820 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,840 Speaker 1: the high end earning more than a million dollars a 821 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,000 Speaker 1: year are going to have a tax burden of about 822 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,480 Speaker 1: six of their income going in federal, state and city taxes. 823 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,680 Speaker 1: And that is a kind of breaking point when you 824 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,480 Speaker 1: found out that you can do your work from a 825 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:24,240 Speaker 1: state where your taxes like Florida, will be your income, 826 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,440 Speaker 1: so you keep more than you would both under Trump 827 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,080 Speaker 1: and of course I one thousand percent view this that 828 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,080 Speaker 1: he did this to kill major cities in blue states. 829 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,359 Speaker 1: The deductibility on your federal income taxes if your state 830 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,800 Speaker 1: and local Texas was disallowed. Is that going to come back? 831 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:46,160 Speaker 1: Does your organization wanted to come back? Our organization is 832 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,359 Speaker 1: split because it's tied to the corporate taxes. I would 833 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: say the vast majority of our members of the business 834 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,040 Speaker 1: community of New York fields this was a discriminatory hit 835 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 1: at New York. It was designed to disadvantage our economy, 836 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,040 Speaker 1: to create incentives to move to Florida and to Texas 837 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,799 Speaker 1: and to other red states states with no income tax, 838 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,520 Speaker 1: with no income tax. So absolutely, it is a hit 839 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,880 Speaker 1: at New York and it is devastating. And we made 840 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,759 Speaker 1: that argument in Albany to no avail. The feeling of 841 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,359 Speaker 1: the politicians was that rich people will never leave New 842 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,719 Speaker 1: York you really have to tread carefully because yes, they 843 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 1: will leave. I mean, I'm telling you right now. You 844 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,120 Speaker 1: say a lot of people are going to leave, people 845 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:34,440 Speaker 1: start to notice, and every tax accountant, every tax lawyer, 846 00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 1: every private wealth advisor that I speak to tells me 847 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:44,239 Speaker 1: that their business in people working on relocating their residents 848 00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: for tax purposes has dramatically increased since the COVID. So 849 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:54,400 Speaker 1: this is again another ticking time bomb. We're not going 850 00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 1: to see it this year. We've got good tax revenues 851 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,760 Speaker 1: coming in this year, but over the next couple of years, 852 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,680 Speaker 1: as they're able to make those arrangements and people can 853 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:09,359 Speaker 1: if their company opens an office in Florida and you're 854 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: working out of that office, you're no longer paying New 855 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,640 Speaker 1: York City income Texas. Right. So, for example, if you've 856 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,040 Speaker 1: left New York and you're in Connecticut or you're in 857 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,840 Speaker 1: New Jersey and the office that you're working through is 858 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,040 Speaker 1: in New York City, you're an employee of a New 859 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:27,359 Speaker 1: York City company, and the moment that company opens an 860 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,319 Speaker 1: office into the remote area you're in, you're out. Now 861 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,880 Speaker 1: you're working for a Florida company. Correct, Bingo, That's exactly 862 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,760 Speaker 1: the problem. That's what I said before. Fifty six percent 863 00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:45,480 Speaker 1: of the current highest taxpayers are already non residents in Connecticut, 864 00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:51,360 Speaker 1: in New Jersey, wherever, but their company resisted investing and 865 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,879 Speaker 1: opening an office where they are Now the pressure from 866 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:58,160 Speaker 1: the talent is so strong. A guy was telling me 867 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,960 Speaker 1: last week, I've got four partners us in Florida. I've 868 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,879 Speaker 1: ignored them for years. I haven't opened an office there. 869 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,960 Speaker 1: And then a new recruit that's a superstar came along 870 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,120 Speaker 1: and said, I will not pay New York taxes. You 871 00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 1: have to open an office in Florida. And he said, 872 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,799 Speaker 1: what am I gonna do? April one, I opened an 873 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 1: office in Florida. Well, listen. Thank you for doing this 874 00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:27,560 Speaker 1: with us anytime, anytime. Thank you. Catherine Wild, CEO and 875 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,400 Speaker 1: President of the Partnership for New York City. My thanks 876 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,440 Speaker 1: to her and Michael Cisitski. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the 877 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,440 Speaker 1: thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio. We're produced 878 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:44,560 Speaker 1: by Kathleen Russo, Carrie donohue, and Zach McNeice. Our engineer 879 00:52:44,640 --> 00:53:03,200 Speaker 1: is Frank Imperial. Thanks for listening. Don't make n