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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. How are you? I think you're busy,

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Speaker 1: is what the rumor is.

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Speaker 3: I am quite busy.

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Speaker 2: You know, my paperback just came out and it's unmasked,

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Speaker 2: you know, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases. But we

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Speaker 2: added a chapter. Oh yeah, also it has new content

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Speaker 2: in it. It's another case. But I am now having

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Speaker 2: to bounce around the country, you know, doing book tour

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Speaker 2: type of events.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever get tired And the correct answer is no,

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Speaker 1: you never get tired of meeting with fans and listeners

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Speaker 1: and readers. But secretly you can just tell me, does

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Speaker 1: it get tiring doing all the traveling that you do,

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Speaker 1: because I don't even do a quarter of what you do,

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Speaker 1: and it's exhausting for me.

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Speaker 3: There's no question. The travel beats me up.

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Speaker 2: And book tours are especially onerous because I'm having to

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Speaker 2: be in a different city, you know, every other day.

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Speaker 2: So I'm on a plane every other day, at an

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Speaker 2: airport every other day, you know, changing hotel. The events

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Speaker 2: are fun, Meeting the fans are fun, but I'm an introvert,

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Speaker 2: and so like when I now, in addition to being

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Speaker 2: you know, in front of five hundred people, and then

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Speaker 2: now I have five hundred people who are coming up

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Speaker 2: and getting their book signed and we're talking, I'm exhausted.

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Speaker 2: By the end of those days, I go home and

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Speaker 2: I curl up into a fetal position and I just crash.

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Speaker 1: This is your second book tour, right, because this is

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Speaker 1: your first book.

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Speaker 3: This is my first book.

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Speaker 2: So I did you know with the when the hard

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Speaker 2: cover was released, I did a book tour then and

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize it, but the publisher said, oh, by

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Speaker 2: the way, you're doing a book tour when the paperback

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Speaker 2: gets released, So it's for the same essentially the same book,

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Speaker 2: but my second book tour.

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Speaker 1: So is there going to be another book in the works?

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Speaker 1: Do you have another lifetime worth of stories? And you, Paul,

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Speaker 1: holes is what everyone wants to know.

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Speaker 2: You know, there has been some discussion. There was a

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Speaker 2: fair amount of material that was written that never made

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Speaker 2: it into Unmasked, and that's where you know, there is

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Speaker 2: at least some already written material that we could start

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Speaker 2: a second book. But as you know, Kate, writing a

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Speaker 2: book is hard, it's time consuming, it is no it

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Speaker 2: may be a bit before you know a second book

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Speaker 2: is even really in earnest being talked about.

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Speaker 3: But there's a possibility.

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Speaker 2: If I had my brothers, I'd be out in the

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Speaker 2: field visiting the crime scene, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: And now we're trying to get you in the field, Paul.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying my best. It's hard. It's hard when when

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Speaker 1: they're set in eighteen eighty five, like this story coming

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Speaker 1: up is.

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Speaker 2: Oh, well, you know, I'll go out and visit the

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Speaker 2: crime scene, even if it's just this big metropolitan area

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Speaker 2: today and it was a field back you know, back then,

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Speaker 2: that's still informative.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we're on. Well, this is set in Gilded Age

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Speaker 1: New York, which is just my favorite time period ever.

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Speaker 1: I know it sounds like I say that with every

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Speaker 1: single case we have, this is the best one. No,

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Speaker 1: this is the best one. But Gilded Age New York

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Speaker 1: is what I've written about a lot. So this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a really interesting case. So this will

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Speaker 1: require some travel, but it's the best kind of travel

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Speaker 1: because we're just going to go back in time and

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Speaker 1: talk about a really great story.

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Speaker 2: Oh time travel, I like it. Oh wait, don't we

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Speaker 2: do that every time?

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Speaker 1: I think you have to pack? Now, we do do

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Speaker 1: that every time. Okay, let's go ahead and set the scene.

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Speaker 1: So this is in the Soho section of New York

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Speaker 1: in the Gilded Age, just a few blocks from China Town,

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Speaker 1: as I always try to do. Let me explain what

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Speaker 1: the dynamics are of the neighborhood and where all the

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Speaker 1: action is here. This story, for me, is a good

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Speaker 1: old story about good old fashioned police work and really

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Speaker 1: following the witnesses. So you'll have a lot of questions

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Speaker 1: that many of the witnesses will be able to answer.

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Speaker 1: There's not a ton of forensics in here. It's a

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Speaker 1: nice little mystery and it is another unsolved case. I

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Speaker 1: told you I was going to try to get more

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Speaker 1: of these for you. Despite my resistance to unsolved cases,

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Speaker 1: I want to try to get some more in there

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Speaker 1: because I know you like them.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's that's what I did my entire career,

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Speaker 2: And I think the fascinating aspect about the unsolved case

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Speaker 2: is really the puzzles solving, you know, and trying to

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Speaker 2: lay out, okay, that these are the facts, then this

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Speaker 2: is how to how you can take those facts, how

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Speaker 2: you can take the you know, the hunches that as

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Speaker 2: an investigator you have, and start developing the leads that

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Speaker 2: you want to pursue or forming opinions as to what

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Speaker 2: suspect or what type of suspect pool we should be

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Speaker 2: looking at.

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Speaker 1: And whether these cases are solved or unsolved. I still

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Speaker 1: walk away from every episode learning a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about crime and crime prevention and investigation and victimology and

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Speaker 1: crime profiling and forensics, and that all is just so

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Speaker 1: helpful for me and what I do, even outside of

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Speaker 1: these podcasts with books and everything else. So I'm excited

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Speaker 1: about this case. So, as I mentioned, We're in Soho.

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Speaker 1: This is eighteen eighty five, New York and this is

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Speaker 1: happening in a basement restaurant, which is really interesting. So

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Speaker 1: this is on the corner of Spring and Worcester Streets.

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Speaker 1: And here's what the area is like. In the eighteen eighties,

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Speaker 1: Soho was going through a lot of change. There is

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Speaker 1: now a textile industry that's swooping into Soho and all

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Speaker 1: of these brick buildings that were beautiful are torn down

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Speaker 1: and made way for factories and lofts, and over the

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Speaker 1: next few decades the area really starts to decline. And unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: what that means in New York is when I say decline,

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Speaker 1: it usually means lots of crime. And the immigration community

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Speaker 1: that moves in is getting the brunt of it. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of people with Italian heritage, Sicilian heritage, Irish,

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Speaker 1: Perto Rican, Cuban, Dominican, and there are more immigrants from

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Speaker 1: Asian countries. So this is truly a melting pot. Soho

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Speaker 1: is a melting pot, but it is often also filled

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Speaker 1: with people who are in tenement and row houses, who

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Speaker 1: are blue collar workers, much less income, more crime. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot happening in Soho in this time, just so

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Speaker 1: you know kind of where we're coming from. Have you

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Speaker 1: been to Soho before in New York, believe it or.

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Speaker 3: Not, I have what you know.

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Speaker 2: I had never been to New York City, or in

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Speaker 2: particular Manhattan up until literally the day after I retired.

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Speaker 3: I got pulled out to New York.

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Speaker 2: Was so impressed, you know, just by the immensity of

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Speaker 2: the city and the history.

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Speaker 3: But I did go down. I've been to Soho a

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Speaker 3: couple of times.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start with the main character here. He's a

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Speaker 1: restaurant owner and his name is Antonio Saloa, and he's

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Speaker 1: from Cuba. He lived in Cuba. He's from Cuba, and

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Speaker 1: in November of eighteen eighty five, he's forty years old.

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Speaker 1: When he was in Cuba, he made a living by

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Speaker 1: rolling cigars, and when he comes to Manhattan, he does

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Speaker 1: that there too, until he sides he wants to own

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Speaker 1: a restaurant. So he bought a restaurant which was called

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Speaker 1: Restaurant Cubana, and it was also where he lived. And

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Speaker 1: this would have been very common. This is a small joint.

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Speaker 1: My mom is a huge fan of really kind of

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Speaker 1: tiny home feeling, and that was this place. This is

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Speaker 1: very small, less than a thousand square feet, which included

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Speaker 1: not only the restaurant but where he slept. So he

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Speaker 1: slept in a sixty square feet area, and the kitchen

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Speaker 1: was about fifty square feet, and the kitchen and Antonio's

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Speaker 1: sleeping area were kind of crudely partitioned off from the

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Speaker 1: dining room with tall walls. But this was his pride

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Speaker 1: and joy, this restaurant, and this is an immigrant who

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Speaker 1: came in and is trying to create out of nothing

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Speaker 1: a really nice business and it's a popular place.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I'll tell you I haven't had much Cuban

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Speaker 2: food here. You have, you know, authentic Cuban food being

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Speaker 2: served at this restaurant. Guess what my favorite sandwich is,

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Speaker 2: the Cuban. I did not know that a good Cuban

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Speaker 2: cannot be beat.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, I learn all this forensics and everything

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Speaker 1: at the end of the episode, and I do learn

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Speaker 1: a little nugget about Paul holes by the end of

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Speaker 1: every episode. Okay, so I didn't know that. Wait, so

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Speaker 1: what is that ham? What is that?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's it's I think it's several different meats,

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Speaker 2: including ham, But you know, for me, it's just that

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Speaker 2: combination with the cheese, the sauce, the fact that it's

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Speaker 2: been kind of pressed and grilled.

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Speaker 3: You got the mustard, the pickle. That's great.

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Speaker 1: Leave it to you to wax poetic about a sandwich.

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Speaker 1: But I glad, I'm glad you're perky, because this story

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Speaker 1: becomes pretty unpleasant pretty quickly. So Antonio is a thriving

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Speaker 1: restaurant owner. He lives at this place. It's in a basement,

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Speaker 1: it's in an area that's thriving but also struggling at

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Speaker 1: the same time. He really tries hard to make this

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Speaker 1: a nice restaurant. It's adorned with picture of George and

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Speaker 1: Martha Washington. There was a bird cage that was there

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Speaker 1: hanging from the ceiling. You know. There were only four tables,

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Speaker 1: but they could total set about thirty people. They could

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Speaker 1: squeeze thirty people into this restaurant. And there was a

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Speaker 1: large water jug by the restaurant's front entrance for people

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Speaker 1: who were thirsty. There was a stove that couldn't even

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Speaker 1: fit in the kitchen. They had to put it in

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Speaker 1: the center of the dining area. And then in the

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Speaker 1: corner there's a drawer that Antonio used as a cast register.

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Speaker 1: So this is a very tight restaurant that turns into

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Speaker 1: a very small crime scene, which makes it even more

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Speaker 1: interesting for me. So this is when the murder takes place,

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Speaker 1: sometime between two pm and three pm on November two,

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Speaker 1: eighteen eighty five. Between two and three there's a vegetable

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Speaker 1: vendor named Thomas Daley who arrives at the restaurant and

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Speaker 1: he goes downstairs into this basement restaurant to see if

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Speaker 1: Antonio needed to place an order for vegetables, which is

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Speaker 1: likely because it's a popular restaurant. There's all sorts of

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Speaker 1: people who come in and out, and most of them

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Speaker 1: are from the Cuban American population. So when Thomas day

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Speaker 1: goes downstairs, he's shocked to see the scene. So Antonio

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Speaker 1: is lying on the restaurant's floor. He has been brutally beaten.

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Speaker 1: You know. The police come and they identify him pretty

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Speaker 1: quickly from the neighbors. Let me tell you what the

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Speaker 1: injuries were like. He was so severely beaten that his

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Speaker 1: face was like jelly quote unquote, and his left eye

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Speaker 1: had been knocked out of its socket, lying in his long,

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Speaker 1: blood soaked hair, and he had been stabbed ten times.

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Speaker 1: I want you to pay attention to these injuries, not

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Speaker 1: that you wouldn't normally, but pay attention because I need

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Speaker 1: to know about blood and the likelihood that the offender

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Speaker 1: would have a lot of blood on him, because we've

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Speaker 1: talked about this before. But before you talk about that,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is somebody who's been beaten, he's been

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Speaker 1: stabbed ten times. If I, as a layperson were looking

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Speaker 1: looking at this, I would say this is overkill, right,

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Speaker 1: And I would say this has to be personal, not

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Speaker 1: a professional hit or not a robbery. Am I wrong

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Speaker 1: in making that assumption? And I know that you will

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Speaker 1: probably say there's always exceptions to everything, But does this

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Speaker 1: spell personal to you? Stabbed ten times and beaten so

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Speaker 1: bad that his eyeball is popped out?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, You're wrong, a bastard.

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Speaker 2: There's there's so much that goes into assessing, like in

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Speaker 2: an unsolved case, you know, what is the motive of

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Speaker 2: the offender and just the modalities of cause of death?

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Speaker 2: The bludgeting and the stabbing is not enough to try

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Speaker 2: to discern, you know, is there anything that indicates there's

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Speaker 2: some sort of interpersonal aspect between the offender and the victim?

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Speaker 2: The initial assessment that I'm going to be doing. Is

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Speaker 2: going to be okay, I've got a male victim. Now

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Speaker 2: is there evidence that there was a struggle between this

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Speaker 2: male and the offender the victim and the offender. Is

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Speaker 2: this an ongoing struggle, because now I have maybe two

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Speaker 2: equally capable combatants where this is going to be a

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Speaker 2: prolonged battle between these two individuals. This is where you

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Speaker 2: start to see greater injuries to the victim. Now the

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Speaker 2: offender is likely also receiving some sort of injuries during

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Speaker 2: this battle. If both combatants are equal and it's a

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Speaker 2: fair fight, you know, sometimes you'll get the blitz attack

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Speaker 2: where the victim is incapacitated right away. But also now

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Speaker 2: it's like the focus of the violence. We have bludgeting

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Speaker 2: to the head. Well, that's how you kill somebody, right,

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Speaker 2: of course, most bludgetings are to the head. You don't

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Speaker 2: if you have let's say something like a hammer, you

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Speaker 2: could be beating them all day long in the chest.

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Speaker 2: Chances are you're not going to kill them. You need

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Speaker 2: to be hitting them in the skull. So that's not

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Speaker 2: something that really gives me much information in terms of

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Speaker 2: the relationship between the offender and the victim. The eye

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Speaker 2: being out, I mean, I can tell you I was

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Speaker 2: at a bar shooting and then I had a deputy

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Speaker 2: who confronted a guy who's just walking by. I go

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Speaker 2: outside and this guy's eyeball is hanging down by his cheek.

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Speaker 3: He had he had.

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Speaker 2: Just got it into a fight, you know, several blocks away,

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Speaker 2: and the deputy saw him and going way, do you

266
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Speaker 2: need some help? And then it's kind of escalated in

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Speaker 2: terms of guy with eyeball out of his eye socket

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Speaker 2: ends up being arrested. But eyeballs are you know, that's

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Speaker 2: not real indicative of the force being used. The stabbing

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Speaker 2: is where I would want to evaluate or the stab

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Speaker 2: wounds anti mortem or they post mortem? Are they clustered

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Speaker 2: in a particular area. Are they spread around the victim's body,

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Speaker 2: like the victim is still struggling and moving as he's

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Speaker 2: being stabbed. And one of the things that I always

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Speaker 2: when I train people who are now trying to assess injuries,

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Speaker 2: particularly stabbings, we have so many jail shankings on video,

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Speaker 2: and you know, people go, well, it's ten stab wound.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is just dramatic overkill. Was like, well, no,

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Speaker 2: watch a shanking in a jail. Ten stab wounds occur

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Speaker 2: in seconds. Yeah, I have to look at the totality

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Speaker 2: of everything before I could start going. Yes, I believe

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Speaker 2: that the offender knew the victim, was angry with the victim,

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Speaker 2: that's why there's so much violence. Or was this Was

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Speaker 2: this a situation where they're just incapacitating a victim who's struggling,

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Speaker 2: or is there an aspect where there's torture where they're

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Speaker 2: trying to extract information from the victim. It's more complicated

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Speaker 2: than just bludgeting and stabbing.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think I have a lot of answers for

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Speaker 1: you now. I have so many answers that you need

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Speaker 1: to tell me where you want to go. First, I

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Speaker 1: have the Corners report from the autopsy. I have whether

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Speaker 1: things were taken, what the possible motive was of you know,

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Speaker 1: what they find or don't find at the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: And I also have the sheer amount of damage that

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Speaker 1: clearly was like a brawl between these two men inside

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Speaker 1: this tiny restaurant in the middle of the day in Soho.

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Speaker 1: Which one of these three things do you want to

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Speaker 1: talk about? First?

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Speaker 2: We are going to just implement the way I approach

300
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Speaker 2: on solved cases and the way I approach on solve

301
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Speaker 2: cases is first, I want to know what's happened to

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Speaker 2: the victim because that can often be informative and it

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Speaker 2: helps me assess the crime scene. So I do need

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Speaker 2: to know the autopsy first, and this is what I

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Speaker 2: always do when I approach an unsolved case.

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Speaker 3: I look at the autopsy.

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Speaker 2: I need to know what has happened and what injuries

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Speaker 2: the victim has, and that helps me interpret what I'm

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Speaker 2: seeing at the crime scene. Then I look at the

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Speaker 2: crime scene, then I look at forensic lab reports. I

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Speaker 2: don't look at investigative stuff or potential suspects until I

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Speaker 2: have formed opinions as to what I think is going on.

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Speaker 2: And so let's kind of go through this process step

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Speaker 2: by step.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm going to start reading. It's about a

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Speaker 1: paragraph long. There's a lot of detail. I'm sure not

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Speaker 1: enough for you. Always, I know you want as much

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Speaker 1: detail as possible. Put your hand up if you need

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Speaker 1: me to pause because you need to comment on something.

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Speaker 1: But they can go through an awful of the injuries here. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you ready, yep? Okay. The coroner cannucts this autopsy and

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Speaker 1: he finds that both the frontal and occipital bones were fractured,

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Speaker 1: the upper and lower jawbones, and the nasal bone were crushed,

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Speaker 1: while from three knife wounds on the left side of

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Speaker 1: the head, portions of the brain were oozing. On the

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Speaker 1: left side of the chest were ten knife thrusts extending

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Speaker 1: from the third to the eighth rib. All these ribs

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Speaker 1: were cut through. One of these cuts penetrated completely through

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Speaker 1: the heart, while two others went through the lungs and

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Speaker 1: touched the heart. The diaphragm was severed and the liver

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Speaker 1: and intestines had been reached by the blade. The hands

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Speaker 1: had been cut evidently while Antonio was endeavoring to gain

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Speaker 1: possession of the knife. End of report.

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Speaker 2: Okay, now you know what the types of injuries to

335
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Speaker 2: his face, to his all you know obviously from a

336
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Speaker 2: bludgeting instrument. This is where when you have a pooled

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Speaker 2: blood source and you have a blunt forest instrument strike

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Speaker 2: that pooled blood source, this is where you get this

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Speaker 2: blood spatter pattern that informs me, Okay, I've got blows

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Speaker 2: to his face, to his head. I would expect that

341
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Speaker 2: there potentially is going to be spatter pattern within the

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Speaker 2: crime scene that helps me place where his head was

343
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Speaker 2: at certain moments in time during the commission of the homicide. Now,

344
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Speaker 2: the stab wounds are interesting. We've got stab wounds to

345
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Speaker 2: the left side of his head. You know the sequence

346
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Speaker 2: if you have a distribution of the stab wounds. Let's

347
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,879
Speaker 2: say the stabbing is occurring first, and I don't know

348
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Speaker 2: if that's happening or not, but it sounds like it

349
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Speaker 2: very well. Maybe with the defensive injuries to his hands,

350
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Speaker 2: because I would imagine, you know, with the types of

351
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Speaker 2: fractures to his frontal and occipital bones, he's going to

352
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Speaker 2: be incapacitated and likely has lost consciousness. So it may

353
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Speaker 2: be the defensive injuries to his hands is that the

354
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,400
Speaker 2: offender is initially attacking him first with a knife, and

355
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Speaker 2: then whether the victim is still upright, still conscious, don't

356
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,119
Speaker 2: know without assessing the crime scene. But now you have

357
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Speaker 2: the mass of blows being inflicted to his head causing

358
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Speaker 2: these skull fractures.

359
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,119
Speaker 3: So now let's go to the crime scene.

360
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,679
Speaker 2: Let's see what they say about the crime scene and

361
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 2: any blood patterns present.

362
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Speaker 1: Okay, I don't know about blood patterns, but they do

363
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,320
Speaker 1: try to assess where all this happened. They don't have

364
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,360
Speaker 1: to look for a murder weapon, because there is a

365
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,520
Speaker 1: bloody fifteen inch fifteen inch knife sitting right next to

366
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Speaker 1: Antonio's body before you ask, I don't know if this

367
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 1: is Antonio's knife or it was brought.

368
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:44,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, here's what was.

369
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Speaker 1: Something that was interesting, And you can tell me if

370
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,720
Speaker 1: this tallies with the Corners report. They said that the

371
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 1: knife itself was bent, as if someone had twisted it

372
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,399
Speaker 1: in Antonio's body during the attack. Is that kind of

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Speaker 1: the rib thing that they were talking about, all the

374
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Speaker 1: ribs were cut.

375
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:04,879
Speaker 2: No. We frequently see knife blades damaged or broken and stabbing,

376
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,680
Speaker 2: and it's not so much from hitting the bone. Think

377
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,240
Speaker 2: about this, and this can be a little graphic for

378
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Speaker 2: some people.

379
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 3: This is a fifteen inch long knife.

380
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 2: During the stabbing, with the victim on the floor, that

381
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 2: blade is passing potentially all the way through the victim's

382
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,879
Speaker 2: body and then impacting I'm assuming it's a cement floor

383
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,359
Speaker 2: at least it's a hard surface underneath him. When that

384
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 2: knife suddenly stops as the offender is thrusting the knife

385
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,880
Speaker 2: through the victim, this is when you start to see

386
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 2: knife blades being bent or broken. Also when you start

387
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 2: to see the offender's hand slipping off the handle and

388
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 2: going on the blade and they get cut themselves. That's

389
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 2: what we always hope for in stabbings is now we

390
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 2: have an offender who's bleeding. Sometimes striking bone will cause that,

391
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,119
Speaker 2: you know. But this is a significant knife, you know,

392
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,919
Speaker 2: and if the offender's holding onto it and thrusting with

393
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 2: force fifteen inch blade, I think it's going all the

394
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 2: way through the victim's body and striking the floor.

395
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 1: So now we'll talk about forensics a little bit, not

396
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:05,640
Speaker 1: that they were able to do anything in this case,

397
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 1: but you could tell me what's possible here. So the stove,

398
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 1: which we said was too big to be installed in

399
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 1: this tiny little kitchen it's in the center of the

400
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 1: dining room, had been dented by a blow. We're going

401
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,280
Speaker 1: to presume from his head, had blood and hair stuck

402
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,959
Speaker 1: on it. Meanwhile, remember there was this communal jug of

403
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 1: water that Antonio had kindly put by the front door

404
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 1: so people could come and get some water. It was

405
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,520
Speaker 1: a dull red color, you know. I think the thought

406
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 1: was that whoever did this put his hands in to

407
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 1: maybe wash the blood off. And there was a nearby

408
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 1: towel that had several bloody finger marks on it. Can

409
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,639
Speaker 1: you pull fingerprints off of a bloody talic? I mean,

410
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 1: is what would be useful today aside from DNA of course.

411
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 2: Everything Well, I guess your last detail first, You know,

412
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,600
Speaker 2: the blood on this towel.

413
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 3: Generally, towels, even.

414
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,439
Speaker 2: If they have a bear a fabric that had as

415
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 2: the tightest weave possible, it's still not going to be

416
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 2: possible to get a print off of such a textured surface.

417
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: So chances are what you've got is just some bloody

418
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 2: fingers grabbing the towel. You can tell let me see

419
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 2: this all the time. You know, somebody has grabbed a

420
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 2: surface and you can see the outline of fingers or

421
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 2: a thumb or something. There's just no ridge detail to

422
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: be able to do anything with. The dent in the

423
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 2: stove with the blood and hair is interesting. This could

424
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: be from you know, he's receiving blows while he's still upright,

425
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 2: and he falls and hits his head on the side

426
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,880
Speaker 2: of the stove. But I would not eliminate the possibility

427
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: without knowing more of the offender taking the victim's head

428
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,119
Speaker 2: and ramming it into the stove. Yeah, and you would

429
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 2: get the same type of damage as well as blood

430
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 2: and potential hair transfer. So right now, I can't say

431
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: one way or another, you know, And this is this

432
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,640
Speaker 2: is where I'm wondering. Is there evidence that a separate

433
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 2: bludgeting instrument was used or do we have an offender

434
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: grabbing the victim's head, hitting it on the stove, hitting

435
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 2: it on the ground, which happens and can cause blunt

436
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: force trauma like what we're seeing in this case.

437
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: Police do not have any information about another weapon. The

438
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 1: only thing is this knife that has been left behind,

439
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: and that's it. Let's talk about motive because it seems

440
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: like robbery was the motive because the front door had

441
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 1: been busted open, which suggested a forced entry. One thing

442
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,959
Speaker 1: that a witness will tell us later is that Antonio

443
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: had a habit of shutting down right after the lunch rush,

444
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: locking the door, leaving, and then coming back. So anybody

445
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: who knew his routine, you know, knew that the door

446
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 1: would be potentially locked even if he was inside until

447
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: he opened the doors up again. Everything in the restaurant

448
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: of value had been taken. His pocket, it's been emptied out,

449
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: a trunk in his sleeping area had been ransacked. The

450
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,400
Speaker 1: restaurant's register had been cleaned out. Anything that was worth

451
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: anything had been taken, and there were things that were

452
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 1: stained with blood all over the place. Little cards and

453
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 1: strips of paper were stained with blood that we're presuming

454
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: the killer sort of rifled through and left Antonio's blood

455
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 1: or his own blood behind. So he takes the time

456
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: to rob this place. It sounds like pretty thoroughly, but

457
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: he doesn't take the knife. That seems weird to me?

458
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: Is it not to you? Or do people just don't

459
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: think the way I think about stuff like this.

460
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,959
Speaker 2: The leaving the knife behind. I think we also have

461
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 2: to remember when this case is occurring, you know, what

462
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: kind of evidence could be used during this era to

463
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 2: identify who the offender was based on him leaving the

464
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 2: knife behind. There was nothing that they could do. I mean,

465
00:24:55,119 --> 00:25:00,239
Speaker 2: we're even in the empathy of fingerprint technology at this point,

466
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 2: and the offender likely is completely unaware of fingerprint technology

467
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 2: during this time.

468
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wouldn't have been available in eighteen eighty five

469
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: at all. I mean Oscar Heinrich innovated fingerprinting in the

470
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: United States. That was like nineteen ten. I mean it

471
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: was very much later on, So they really were pretty

472
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: clueless I think at this point. So what they want

473
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: to know is they want to really try to figure

474
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: out how the killer got out. There's only one way

475
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: to get in and get out of this restaurant. How

476
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: they got out without being noticed that this was a

477
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: very bloody scene. Would the killer not have been completely

478
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: covered with blood? It didn't appear like he changed and

479
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 1: put on Antonio's closed and walked out completely clean. And

480
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: I don't know if you had answered this earlier, and

481
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: we've talked about this before. Is it possible for him

482
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: to have gotten away after this racus that happened in

483
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: the middle of this tiny restaurant without a significant amount

484
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 1: of blood on him, or at least maybe be able

485
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 1: to pull his jacket over a shirt that got bloody

486
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: in the middle of this. No.

487
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

488
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: The misperception out there is that when you have the

489
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: super bloody crime scene, that the offender must have blood

490
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 2: all over them. There are times that, yes, the offender

491
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 2: gets very bloody. However, most of the blood at any

492
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 2: of these types of crime scenes, particularly if there's large

493
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: blood pools, those formed after the offender was long gone, right,

494
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: The body is just laying there bleeding out, and the

495
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 2: offender has already escaped. He's never had to step over

496
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 2: that blood pool. He never had to interact with the

497
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 2: victim with that blood pool present in this situation. Let's

498
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 2: talk about a stabbing. Generally, stabbings don't produce a lot

499
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: of bleeding that is going to get onto the offender.

500
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 2: There are times where, of course, you can get some

501
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: as you have multiple stab wounds in the same location,

502
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 2: the nice starts getting bloody, you start getting some drops

503
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 2: that could end up on the offender. But oftentimes, if

504
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,679
Speaker 2: you have let's say, stab wounds that are distributed across

505
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: the body and not clustered into one location, you don't

506
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: have like this real bloody area that the knife is

507
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 2: constantly going in and out of. That's causing a lot

508
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 2: of blood to get onto the blade. And generally, outside

509
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: of cast off, stabbings don't produce like blood spatter that

510
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 2: is flying everywhere.

511
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: Even if you're hitting an arterie or in you know,

512
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that there are parts of your

513
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: body that you can hit. We'rek spurts. Even if that.

514
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 2: Happens, that can happen, notably with the neck. Okay, you

515
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 2: know that's really in stabbings. If you hit the carrotid.

516
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 2: There's a possibility you can get what we call an

517
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: arterial spurt, and if that happens to get onto the victim,

518
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 2: that would be a little bit more significant amount of blood.

519
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: But more typically what happens is you have stabbings in

520
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 2: which the knife blade goes in and it comes out.

521
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 2: Of course, that wound starts to bleed, but as the

522
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: blade comes out, notably like the fat layer, which doesn't

523
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 2: have a lot of blood in it to begin with,

524
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 2: kind of wipes wix the knife blade clean and then

525
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: you stab somewhere else and bring it out, so you're

526
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 2: not getting a ton of blood that most people would expect. Now,

527
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: the bludgeoning is a little bit different because you can

528
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: start getting spatter as you beat somebody on let's say

529
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 2: their face and their head, and you start getting some

530
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: pooled blood sources that the more blows you and flick,

531
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: the more spatter you get. Most of the time, though,

532
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 2: that spatter is shadowed from the offender by the weapon itself.

533
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: So the weapon, let's say it's a baseball bat, well,

534
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: oftentimes that baseball bat will prevent much of the blood

535
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: droplets from flying back onto the offender because now the

536
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: droplets are going out away, you know, from the head,

537
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: and can't come back at the offender because the bat

538
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 2: is in the way. But I would expect in this

539
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 2: case that the offender without seeing anything, you know, that's

540
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: my caveat. If the offender had blood on him, he

541
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: likely had some spatter low down on his shoes, on

542
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 2: his pant legs, because I think the victim is attacked

543
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: initially with a knife and then is eventually either bludgeoned

544
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: or stomped to death on the head, and then the

545
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: offender has a few drops of blood on him, and

546
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: possibly he could easily just walk out of the shop,

547
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 2: you know, button up his sports coat and walk down

548
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 2: the street and nobody would know that he had been

549
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: involved in any act of violence.

550
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: Well, the police don't know that because they are assuming

551
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: that this guy is a ghost, that he would have

552
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: left bloodied head to toe. None of Antonio's clothes were missing.

553
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: Nobody knows what happened when the police start came using.

554
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: I think this is an interesting story about witnesses. When

555
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: the police start canvassing, they start gathering more and more

556
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: information about Antonio, which makes this case a little more complicated.

557
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: So they start asking with neighbors. Antonio is the only

558
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: employee of his own restaurant. He has no family, he's

559
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: not from New York. He lived in Cuba, and he's

560
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: well liked. But people know he has a lot of

561
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: money and he's kept a lot of money. There's a

562
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: woman who said that, you know, she thinks he was

563
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: targeted specifically because the restaurant does really well, even though

564
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: it's tiny, and that she was afraid that's why he

565
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: was gonna get killed, and that she's not surprised that

566
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: he was a target considering where they lived and in

567
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: this time period, you know, particularly in this area, he

568
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: would have been a target. They tracked down a guy

569
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: named Julius Dikon, who was someone who knew Antonio really well,

570
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: and he had eaten at the restaurant about an hour

571
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: or two before Antonio murdered, and he said he actually

572
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: watched Antonio lock up the restaurant. When Julius got up

573
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: and left, Antonio got up and locked the restaurant and

574
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: left the property at about one o'clock. He said that

575
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: this was a big part of his routine. As I

576
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: told you, you always left the restaurant for a break in

577
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: the middle of the day. So let's talk about routines,

578
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: because we've talked about this with many other cases. I

579
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: don't think this was random. I think this was targeted.

580
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: How important is it when you're investigating to know who

581
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: would have known the person's routine? Is it a bad

582
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: idea for us to all have routines? You know? I

583
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: mean it makes me paranoid about am I leaving the

584
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: house at the same time? What if somebody is watching me?

585
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: And the routine part of this is interesting. Somebody knew

586
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: when to get back to this restaurant, somebody knew when

587
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: he would come back.

588
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 3: Well, this is this all goes into victimology.

589
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: Victimology is just not who is this person, but it

590
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 2: is you know, what is their life, what is their lifestyle?

591
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: The daily routine is a big part of it in

592
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: assessing this case, when the offender seemingly knows when to attack,

593
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: you know, that would indicate that the offender has become

594
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 2: aware of the victim's routine. Now does that mean the

595
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 2: offender knows a victim? Absolutely not. This could just be

596
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: from just simple surveillance. You know, somebody who is in

597
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: this case, this guy has some significant financial assets that

598
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 2: are inside the restaurant. I'm going to watch and plan,

599
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 2: you know, and that would tell me I'm dealing with

600
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: an organized offender. This wasn't a spur of the moment

601
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: type of attack. If the offender is taking the time

602
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: to watch the victim, figure out the routines, plan how

603
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: to get in and carry out this crime, and then

604
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: clean out this restaurant. It's not just grabbing, you know,

605
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: the cash out of the registrar drawer. They're cleaning out

606
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: this restaurant. They're taking time to do that. So that

607
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: tells me, yes, this is a you know, there is

608
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: a financial aspect to the offender's motive, and there's also

609
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: some level of planning.

610
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 3: But you could also just have somebody.

611
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: Who was a customer who the victim is like okay,

612
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: time to close, and the customer is like the last

613
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: one in. They're going, no, you're not closing right now.

614
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: I'm in fact, I'm going to take you all your

615
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: money and kill you, and then I'm going to lock

616
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 2: up after the fact.

617
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: Well, the police continue to canvas and they are talking

618
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: to the mini shop owners that surround the restaurant. They

619
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: contact this guy named Patrick Ryder who was a plumber.

620
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: So he was one shop level above restaurant Kubana, and

621
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: he heard glass breaking around two twenty pm. It was

622
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 1: enough for Rider and his coworker to step outside the

623
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: shop and onto the street level. But remember Antonio's restaurant

624
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: was basement level, so they just sort of looked around

625
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: and didn't see anything. And I don't think they could

626
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 1: tell that it was coming specifically from his restaurant, so

627
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: they didn't notice anything out of the ordinary, but they

628
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: did hear glass break. So police now are operating under

629
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: the idea that this is a robbery that he walked

630
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: in on someone breaking through his door, and he walked

631
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: in and there was a robbery happening at the same time.

632
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 1: So far does that make sense to you, Paul.

633
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 3: That absolutely does make sense.

634
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: Okay, things get a little bit more complicated for the

635
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: police because they are talking to a lot of different

636
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: people and they discover something interesting about Antonio Siloa. That

637
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: is not his name. Oh, he is not Cuban. He

638
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: is from China and his real name is Chong Oong.

639
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: So he did live in Cuba. He did wrap cigars,

640
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: that was his job in Cuba, but he was from

641
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: China and he came and changed his name, and the

642
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: police are now wondering if he was hiding under the

643
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: identity of Antonio Siloa, and they want to know if

644
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: this really is a robbery or if this was something

645
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: politically motivated or a personal vendetta that they can't even

646
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: sort out because they assumed that this was, you know,

647
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: a neighborhood robbery. And it becomes more complicated because I

648
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: don't know if they've really heard of someone not only

649
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: just changing their name, but changing their you know, identity,

650
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: their racial identity. While we're sort of moving forward because

651
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: I don't want this to be a red herring. It

652
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like he was a criminal. It sounds like

653
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: when he went to Cuba from China, he identified with

654
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: the Cuban culture, and when he came to New York,

655
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: he changed his name to sort of become that he

656
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: loved Cuban food, he knew how to cook it, he

657
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: wanted to assimilate in that way, and nobody seemed to

658
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: question him that he was not Cuban. So this is

659
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: still a mysterious man and it's part of victimology. It

660
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: doesn't seem nefarious, but it is interesting and it does

661
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: say something about Gilded Age New York where you have

662
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: all of these immigrants coming in and you can be

663
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: anybody sure.

664
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 2: Do you know how long he was portraying himself as

665
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: this Cuban antonio the.

666
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: Entire time he was in New York and probably when

667
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: he was in Cuba two so it sounds like years.

668
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 1: I don't think this was a new.

669
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 3: Thing, Okay.

670
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,919
Speaker 2: And you know, and I'm looking at again this intersection

671
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: where his restaurant was at, and there happens to be

672
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 2: just one of the buildings at this intersection today it's maackage,

673
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: but there is a basement level at this location where

674
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: the other three corners I'm not seeing basement level. So

675
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: I'm thinking I found the location of where this Cuban

676
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: restaurant was at.

677
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: So based on what you're looking at now, knowing you

678
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: know how New York works with the basement level stores

679
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: and everything else, would it be easy to have a

680
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: massive fight like they were having and not be heard,

681
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 1: I guess with bustling soho all around you in shops.

682
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it just seems like it explicable to me

683
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: that this happened at two pm on a busy day

684
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: in a restaurant, even though it was below ground.

685
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: No I think it would be easy. You know, you

686
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: think about this being down in the basement. You know,

687
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 2: the audio aspects, there's going to be a just a

688
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: natural muffling of any screams or any other noises that

689
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,760
Speaker 2: may have occurred during the altercation. You have the noise

690
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 2: up top mid day, you know, soho you know, now

691
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: we're in the days before automobiles, but you still have

692
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 2: the clapping of the horses, hoofs, you know, the carriages

693
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: being drawn over.

694
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 3: These paved roadways.

695
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 2: I think it would be very easy to get away

696
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: with the crime down in the basement, and at least today,

697
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: you know, I'm looking at where somebody would come up

698
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 2: out of that basement location, you know, and they would

699
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: just simply walk out under the sidewalk and blend into

700
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: the crowd and disappear.

701
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: Well. The police now are surprised that Antonio is not Antonio,

702
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 1: but they move along, operating under the assumption that he

703
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: is a good man, as everybody has said around him,

704
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: and just sort of putting aside the fact that he

705
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 1: had changed his identity, which again I don't think was nefarious.

706
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: I think he just wanted a new identity here. So

707
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: they start interviewing more and more witnesses, and our witnesses

708
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: get a little more high quality, which is great. And

709
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 1: this is where I really do want you to start

710
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: talking about witnesses and their reliability. The biggest break in

711
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: the case so far comes from a guy named William Shripper,

712
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: and he owned a shop directly across the street, and

713
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: he actually goes to the police, and he has a

714
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 1: fifteen year old employee named George Manns, and George had

715
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 1: gone to William, his boss, and said, I saw something weird.

716
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: And he said he saw Antonio chasing someone up the

717
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: restaurant stairs. And he said that there was an altercation,

718
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: which is very violent. When I describe it to you,

719
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: it sounds like what the police thought had happened had happened.

720
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: That this mystery person had broken through the door, because

721
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: that's the evidence they saw, had gone and ransacked everything,

722
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: and Antonio caught him and then chased him up the stairs. Okay,

723
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 1: so what happens next is he described this man as

724
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: a tall Cuban man with a scar on his face

725
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: who was running up the stairs being chased by Antonio.

726
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: And he said that the Cuban drew a big knife

727
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,520
Speaker 1: thrust it into Antonio's breast and then seemed to have

728
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: difficulty drawing it out. Then the cuban ran down to

729
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: the basement again and Antonio turned to follow him but

730
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: fell headlong down the stairs, and then they don't know

731
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 1: what happened after that.

732
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 2: The specific details about the long knife, and we know

733
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 2: we have a fifteen inch knife that is found, you know,

734
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 2: in the crime scene. So that is a detail that

735
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: I put a lot of weight on. And most certainly

736
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 2: after a single stab wound, the victim could continue to

737
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 2: function and remain conscious. And so if now you have

738
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 2: the offender running back down and Antonio follow him after

739
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 2: being stabbed and the knife still embedded in him, now

740
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 2: you know he's easily drug back into his own shop

741
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 2: and that knife is pulled out and more stab wounds

742
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 2: are inflicted.

743
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 3: I think that's the sequence.

744
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: I think you have the stabbing first and then you'll

745
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 2: fundamentally have this bludgeting of some sort that is occurring.

746
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 2: So I right now I'm liking that witness statement.

747
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 1: So here are two things. George is across the street,

748
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 1: so it says a shop directly across the street from

749
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: what happening, you know, at Antonio's restaurant, and George says

750
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 1: two things that he gives information to police to help

751
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 1: them identify this tall Cuban man with the very long knife.

752
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: He says he had a scar on his face, and

753
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: he had a unique watch chain. How can all of

754
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: that happen? And you pick up on those two specific details,

755
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: does that seem odd to you?

756
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 2: No?

757
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 3: Really, I'm looking at this street small huh.

758
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 2: It is narrow, you know, so this isn't like a

759
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: standard you know, big city wide street. This street looks

760
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: like it's about half the width of what I was

761
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 2: expecting to be frank, you know, So the witness is

762
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: reasonably close and is remembering some specific details that could

763
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: very readily be seen from such a close distance. Now

764
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: is he accurately remembering them? You know, we know witnesses,

765
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: you know, especially during something like this, which is like

766
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 2: you see it and you're shocked, right, because this isn't

767
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: a normal thing, and you're not necessarily paying attention to

768
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 2: the types of information that needs to be conveyed to

769
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: help law enforcement. You are just like absorbing what you're seeing.

770
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 2: But certain aspects the scar, if this offender does have

771
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: a significant scar, just when we walk down the street.

772
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: When we see somebody who has that type of deformity,

773
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 2: it stands out. It's something that our eyes just kind

774
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 2: of go oh, you know, we see it. And then

775
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: this watch chain. That must be something that was somewhat unusual,

776
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 2: I imagine, and that that's why this witness is his

777
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 2: eyes picked it out. Again, we know that there is

778
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: inaccuracies with what witnesses think they saw versus what actually occurred,

779
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 2: but it is something that I would put some weight

780
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 2: on that. Go Okay, that's such a weird thing to convey.

781
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 2: It's such a weird thing to make up. Yeah, you know,

782
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 2: so now I would probably put some weight on that.

783
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: Okay. Well, the police are saying, oh shit, okay, it's

784
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: a Cuban guy. Now, this is eighteen eighty five, New York.

785
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 1: What are you gonna do when you're going to try

786
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: to find someone. You have a witness who says, yes,

787
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: I think I can identify this tall Cuban man with

788
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: the scar and the big knife. They take him on

789
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: a tour of New York factories where all the Cuban

790
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: workers are.

791
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 3: Oh.

792
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: I would not say a word if I saw the

793
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: guy with a big scar, but they take him to

794
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: all these factories and he can't identify anybody. No shit,

795
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: I would be scared to death. I don't know if

796
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: I would be able to identify anybody, But he is

797
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: not picking out anyone as they are taking him from

798
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: factory to factory to scan the faces of all of

799
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 1: these guys. What do you think about that technique?

800
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: If that was the culture, I guess you know that

801
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 2: if somebody was Cuban, that they more likely than not

802
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 2: worked in the factories. You know, I could see where

803
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 2: there would be value with that. But also one of

804
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: the things I'm wondering would be, well, let's let's post

805
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 2: up some undercover officers in the blocks around this neighborhood just,

806
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 2: you know, for the next few days, and see if

807
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,439
Speaker 2: we find somebody who matches that description with the scar

808
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 2: in their face just wandering around. This guy may be

809
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: a routine customer of the restaurant and lives in the area,

810
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 2: you know, So let's just have some eyeballs out there

811
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: and see if you know, it's such a distinctive feature

812
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 2: that there's a chance that you could easily spot him.

813
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 2: It'd be sort of like the you know today, we

814
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 2: could go to the surveillance videos, you know, but back

815
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: then you just you know, you use these undercover officers as.

816
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 3: Your own sort of pseudo video surveillance cameras.

817
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: Well. What the New York City Police Department decides to

818
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: do is they really talk frankly with members of New

819
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: York's Cuban community and say, who do you know who

820
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: could have done something like this with this level of violence?

821
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: We think you're all good people, you know. We are

822
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: not saying that this is what all Cubans in New

823
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: York are like, but help us identify this guy. The

824
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: detectives are given a group photograph from a Cuban American organization.

825
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: It sounds like it's a social club, but it also

826
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: sounds a little political against communism, political and in this

827
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 1: photo there are a lot of men. They show it

828
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: to George Mann's the witness, and he points to one

829
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: guy named Augustine Rebel. Now is that called a six pack?

830
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: What is that? When you're identifying somebody with that kind

831
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: of fun? And that's not a good method, right, Like, Okay,

832
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:42,919
Speaker 1: which one of these guys looks most like him?

833
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: Oh well it's yeah, it's not not a six pack.

834
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 2: For the listeners, the six pack was and still is

835
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 2: in some areas, a method in which let's say suspect

836
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 2: is identified, so a photograph of that suspect and then

837
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,399
Speaker 2: five other similar looking individuals or should be similar looking

838
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 2: in other individuals are ranged with these six photos, one

839
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 2: being your suspect and then the other's non suspects, and

840
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 2: then presented to the witness. The problem with this approach,

841
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 2: and you kind of mentioned it, is that witnesses in

842
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: this situation, when presented with the photos all at once,

843
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: have a tendency to pick out the one that looks

844
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 2: most similar but not necessarily is the person.

845
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: You know.

846
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:37,360
Speaker 2: An improved method, but not infallible, is a sequential six pack, where,

847
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 2: in essence, the witness is given one photograph after another,

848
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 2: and ideally this photo pack is given to the witness

849
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: by somebody who doesn't even know who the actual suspect

850
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 2: is in this photo, so there isn't any subconscious clues

851
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: that the witness might key in on, you know, where

852
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 2: as an investigator who may be invested in saying I

853
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 2: really want this guy to pick out the suspect.

854
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 3: You know, he kind of leans in when the.

855
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: Suspects photo is sequentially laid down and the witness picks

856
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: up on that. There have been improvements in terms of

857
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: how to get witnesses to look at suspects and pull

858
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 2: the suspect out of a photo lineup. In this situation,

859
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: you have this group photo, and the concern would be

860
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: it's sort of like how the six packs have been used,

861
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 2: where you just throw the six photos in front of

862
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 2: the person and it's like, he's the most similar, but

863
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 2: is he the one that you remember? Human memory is elastic,

864
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 2: and so once the witness sees somebody who looks similar,

865
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: it's very possible that their memory ends up getting molded

866
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 2: to now that person is who they think they saw,

867
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 2: when in fact it isn't.

868
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about Augustine, who is our suspect. He

869
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: was a cigar factory worker. He did have a scar

870
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: on his face, a very large one. He had a

871
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 1: violent history. He had been convicted of assaulting his wife.

872
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: He served prison time, very violent. He had the watch

873
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: chain that the fifteen year old kid had said the

874
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: killer had. George Mans had also described the clothing that

875
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: the tall Cuban man with the scar had been wearing,

876
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: and Augustine was even wearing the same clothes when they

877
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: talked to him that day that George Mann said the

878
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: man had been wearing when he attacked and killed Antonio.

879
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: So all of this is circumstantial, but all of it

880
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: sounds pretty good.

881
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: So far right, it definitely does sound good. Now it's

882
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: a matter of okay. So now comes down to okay,

883
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 2: So what was Augustine doing at the time of the homicide?

884
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: Because you have a pretty narrow window, yep, the afternoon

885
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 2: in which Antonio had been killed. Do we have people

886
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 2: that have enough independence to be able to say that

887
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: Augustine was at work during that time? These clothes that

888
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: are similar to what the fifteen year old said the

889
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 2: offender was wearing. Is there any evidence of blood on

890
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 2: those clothes? You know he starts seeing okay, based on

891
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 2: the circumstances of the case. Is there something that starts

892
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 2: adding up on Augustine.

893
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: Well, funny you should ask about alibis. So he was

894
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 1: supposed to be at the cigar factory that day. He said,

895
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: I was working, Give me a break, I was there.

896
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 1: Look at the books, you'll see that I had been there.

897
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: So they look at the books and it did establish

898
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 1: that Augustine had made one hundred cigars on the day

899
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: that Antonio was killed. This seems like this is a

900
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 1: day's worth of work, so it seems kind of locked

901
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: that he was there, except his supervisors said that Augustine

902
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 1: was really good at making cigars and he could have

903
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: done one hundred cigars in half a day, and there

904
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,439
Speaker 1: was no one monitoring when he left. He just got

905
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: the work done. And they confirmed he did one hundred cigars,

906
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: but no one and confirm when he left for the day,

907
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: he just got him done.

908
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is where really digging into the veracity

909
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 2: of any alibi becomes important. My first question is is, well,

910
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 2: how do they know he made a hundred cigars that

911
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 2: particular day? And then, of course we're not dealing with

912
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 2: a situation where there's going to be video that shows

913
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 2: him coming and going, So now you're relying on witnesses.

914
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 2: How many witnesses saw him come and go? What are

915
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: their allegiance to him? You know, you have people who

916
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 2: will cover up, you know. At this point, you know,

917
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 2: there appears to be at least some question as to

918
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: his whereabouts during the afternoon of the homicide.

919
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: And then on top of that, how would he know

920
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: Antonio and the police start asking more witnesses, and this

921
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 1: is why witnesses are the only good thing in this story,

922
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: because we don't have forensics or anything else. And they

923
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 1: start asking witnesses and they found out that Augustine loaned

924
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 1: money out to a lot of different people, including Antonio,

925
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: and he had not paid back Augustine an unknown amount

926
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 1: of cash, which is weird because you know, Antonio made

927
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: it sounded like a pretty good living. We don't know

928
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,880
Speaker 1: enough about Antonio's life to know whether or not he

929
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: was gambling or what he was doing. We just know

930
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: the rumor with a lot of people, particularly in the

931
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 1: Cuban American community, is that Antonio owed his killer, most

932
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 1: likely Augustine, a lot of money. So now we at

933
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: least have that connection. And you know, I was questioning

934
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 1: the anger, the amount of blood, but George Mans's story

935
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 1: really does kind of solve it. I mean, he walked

936
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 1: in on somebody. He walked in on this guy breaking

937
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: in and it was a big fight and lots of

938
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: violence and blood.

939
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 2: Yes, why would Augustine, a factory worker, have enough money

940
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 2: to loan out? What's going on with him?

941
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: You know, between his background of violence and his mysterious nature.

942
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 1: I don't no but I would guess there's probably some

943
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: illegal activity going on, maybe with Antonio.

944
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 2: Also, Yeah, so is Augustine arrested? Is he convicted of

945
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 2: this case?

946
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 1: Nope, because politics, because New York's Cuban American community came

947
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: out in droves, the politicians did, the common people did

948
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: and said that he was being scapegoated for being Cuban American.

949
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: The police said, we have witnesses who talk about how

950
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: bad this guy is Augustine, how we are sure that

951
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 1: he's connected. But when they went to the witnesses who

952
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: were it sounds like part of the Cuban American community.

953
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 1: It just shut everything down. Nobody would testify. They were scared.

954
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 1: They were all scared. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised

955
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 1: if he were connected to a mob type situation, you know.

956
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: So I would say, you know, based on you know,

957
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 2: you have witness statements, you have some circumstantial aspects, but

958
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 2: the case is weak at best on Augustine.

959
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm not even.

960
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 2: Sure there's PC there in order to affect an arrest today,

961
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 2: there would have to be more for me to have

962
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 2: the confidence that he's responsible.

963
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 3: But he's in play for sure.

964
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that this case was interesting for me

965
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: to read through because there are a lot of mysterious characters,

966
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: But I like cases where it's sort of witness based,

967
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: where the story starts to unfold the more people you

968
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: talk to, I think we get a lot of witnesses

969
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 1: who are not credible, But in this case, we're starting

970
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 1: to get with George Manz, and you know, these people

971
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 1: coming forward for a man who was an immigrant with

972
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: a very mysterious background. People wanted to help to an extent,

973
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: and then when they find out that somebody like Augustine

974
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: is involved, who obviously is incredibly violent. Even George Manz,

975
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: this fifteen year old kid who came forward, they were

976
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: all very scared. So it just shows that the whole

977
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 1: investigation essentially shut down once the Cuban American community in

978
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty five got inv or maybe he was being railroaded.

979
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: We don't know. I mean, we certainly know people police

980
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,280
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty five were heavy handed to say the least.

981
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: But it's interesting how you have these cultures that are

982
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,720
Speaker 1: sort of coming together to try to help a victim,

983
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: but at the same time also protecting probably the offender.

984
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,440
Speaker 1: I mean, there were a lot of connections between this

985
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: case and this guy.

986
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, this fifteen year old witness.

987
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: You know, I'm looking at the crime scene today, and

988
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 2: I've had people in the past tell me, you know,

989
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 2: it's been so long it's no good to go back

990
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 2: out because seeing so many things have changed. But I'm

991
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 2: looking at this this very old brick structure. It's obviously

992
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:43,720
Speaker 2: been refaced, you know, but there's a staircase that comes

993
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 2: up from the basement level area. I'm not sure if

994
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 2: it's another shop or storage or what that, you know,

995
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 2: right across the street is a very small vacant lot

996
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 2: that I'm assuming where this fifteen year old witness was at.

997
00:54:56,640 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 2: At everything he is describing about what he could see,

998
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 2: you know, with this scar faced cuban coming up these steps,

999
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 2: you know, and getting into a confrontation, and then watching

1000
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 2: you know, a single stab wound to the victim and

1001
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 2: the victim you know, collapsing and basically going headfirst down

1002
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:19,200
Speaker 2: the steps. It adds up. I completely believe, you know, this,

1003
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 2: this fifteen year old could see what he saw based

1004
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 2: on what I'm seeing today, and you know, if he

1005
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 2: is bona fide and picking Augustine out of this group

1006
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 2: photo they may have at least landed on the right guy.

1007
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 2: It's just unfortunate that they weren't able to prosecute.

1008
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: Boy. I bet fifteen year old George Mans was not

1009
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: sleeping easy after this. I mean I just aingered this

1010
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: guy and nothing never came to fruition. Yeah, this was

1011
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 1: a hard case, just because this someone Antonio or Chong

1012
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: Oong or whatever we want to call him, was hard

1013
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 1: working and trying to create a new life and seemed

1014
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: really committed. We don't know what was happening in the background,

1015
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: but enough people came forward where they really wanted to

1016
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,280
Speaker 1: see justice and they just didn't have it. Still officially

1017
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 1: an unsoulf case. Wow, So there you go. Welcome to

1018
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: New York, Gilded Age New York, Paul. It's skeezy and gross.

1019
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 1: Someday I'll take you uptown where all the wealthy people,

1020
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:21,800
Speaker 1: the boss tweeds live with their diamond cufflinks. But I

1021
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: think we're going to be slumming it every time we

1022
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: come to eighteen hundreds of New York from now on.

1023
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 3: We'll have to get out there. I'm sure it'll be

1024
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 3: a fun time.

1025
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,879
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all right, well thank you, all right, thanks Kate.

1026
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1027
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash

1028
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1029
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1030
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1031
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1032
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,040
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1033
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 2: Secutor produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1034
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1035
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: Baried Bones Pod.

1036
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1037
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,000
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1038
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1039
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

1040
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now