Speaker 1: Hi, Brian. Hi Katie. So I'm gonna ask you to
Speaker 1: play the role of therapists today, Brian, which you often
Speaker 1: serve for me. My price is right good. I'm worried
Speaker 1: about Russia. It seems clear, according to intelligence agencies and
Speaker 1: Donald Trump himself, that somehow they did meddle in our
Speaker 1: electoral process. I'm worried about this reboot of our relationship,
Speaker 1: which on the face of it doesn't sound like a
Speaker 1: bad idea, but it seems much more than a reboot.
Speaker 1: It seems like a rekindling. And I don't really understand
Speaker 1: the pros and cons of a closer relationship with Russia.
Speaker 1: Now I'll be your therapist, Brian. Wouldn't be the first time.
Speaker 1: Are you worried about Russia? And how does that make
Speaker 1: you feel? You know? I am, because nowhere is the
Speaker 1: change of administration more apparent than in our newfound coziness
Speaker 1: with the Russians. Trump has brought in a lot of
Speaker 1: Putin loyalists to his administration. Some of the Americans who
Speaker 1: are the closest to Vladimir Putin and Russia at least
Speaker 1: over the past ten years, has been a pretty bad
Speaker 1: actor on the global stage, invading countries causing instability hurting
Speaker 1: the United States, and so we really wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to somebody who understood the Russian people, the Russian government
Speaker 1: from the inside out, someone with a very interesting personal history.
Speaker 1: He's written a book called Red Notice, a true story
Speaker 1: of high finance, murder, and one man's fight for justice.
Speaker 1: Brian my friends have been raving about this book, and
Speaker 1: we thought Bill Browder would be a good person to
Speaker 1: really start to unpack the perils and opportunities of a
Speaker 1: closer relationship with Russia, and someone who really understands who
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin is and what he's all about. So if
Speaker 1: you're optimistic about a new and mutually beneficial US Russian relationship,
Speaker 1: listen to Bill Browder. First, Bill Browder, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for talking with us today. We're thrilled to have you.
Speaker 1: Great to be here. You have such a fascinating backstory,
Speaker 1: to say the least, and we're going to share with
Speaker 1: our listeners this story of intrigue and tragedy that you
Speaker 1: have been immersed in for the last several years. But
Speaker 1: Brian and I thought we would start by asking you
Speaker 1: about Donald Trump's inauguration. He is now President of the
Speaker 1: United States, and I just would like to get your
Speaker 1: reaction to that very fact. Well, it's it's it's a
Speaker 1: true mystery to me. What's actually going to happen them.
Speaker 1: I've seen so many different people telling me so many
Speaker 1: different things. Um people saying, look at all the the
Speaker 1: smart people around him, everything is gonna be great, It's
Speaker 1: gonna be fine. And then I read a tweet that
Speaker 1: he has been written in the middle of the night,
Speaker 1: and I have panic, And I'm just waiting to see
Speaker 1: on the issues that I'm most sensitive to what he's
Speaker 1: gonna do, and that that really relates to Vladimir Putin
Speaker 1: and Russia. But doesn't it seem like he's quite sympathetic
Speaker 1: to Vladimir Putin, That Putin clearly made a choice going
Speaker 1: into election day that Trump was going to be his guy.
Speaker 1: It seems that way. It certainly seems that way from
Speaker 1: the Russian side. It's I was just at the World
Speaker 1: Economic Forum in Davos, and the Russians were all they
Speaker 1: all had a bounce in their step, and they were
Speaker 1: all celebrating and smiling and planning for the lifting of
Speaker 1: sanctions and looking for all sorts of gifts from Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: But we we we still don't know if that's actually
Speaker 1: going to happen. I mean, this may be their own fantasy.
Speaker 1: And he's you know, it's not clear what he's gonna do.
Speaker 1: He he claims to be a big dealmaker. UM, I
Speaker 1: don't know what deal he's going to do and whether
Speaker 1: there's any deal to be done. I mean, if you
Speaker 1: really look at it, the Russians are asking for lots
Speaker 1: of stuff, and um, Putin doesn't have much to offer
Speaker 1: in return. And so if Trump really is a deal
Speaker 1: maker and a good businessman, um, maybe they're not going
Speaker 1: to get what they're asking for. Bill, you have a
Speaker 1: very interesting relationship with Vladimir Putin, and for our listeners
Speaker 1: to understand that, I think we should start at the
Speaker 1: very beginning. What was a nice guy like you doing
Speaker 1: in a place like Moscow. Well, I've got a funny,
Speaker 1: funny story, strange story. I come from this family of
Speaker 1: famous American communists. UM. I was born in nineteen sixty four,
Speaker 1: and when I was going through my teenage rebellion, I
Speaker 1: looked around and I said, what's the best way that
Speaker 1: I can rebel from this family of communists? And I
Speaker 1: figured out that the best best thing to do is
Speaker 1: to put on a suit and time become a capitalist.
Speaker 1: There was nothing I could do the cause my parents
Speaker 1: more pain than that, and so I became a capitalist. U.
Speaker 1: I went to Stanford Business School and I graduated business
Speaker 1: school in which was the year of the Berlin Wall
Speaker 1: came down. And as I was looking around for UM,
Speaker 1: what to do with my life next, I had this epiphany,
Speaker 1: which was, if my grandfather was the biggest communist in
Speaker 1: America and the Berlin Wall has just come down, I'm
Speaker 1: going to try to become the biggest capitalist in Russia.
Speaker 1: And that's what I set out to do. I think
Speaker 1: this thing started when you invested about two thousand dollars
Speaker 1: and a handful of Polish companies in the early nineties.
Speaker 1: You made ten times your money and you called at
Speaker 1: the financial equivalent of crack cocaine. Where did that lead? Well,
Speaker 1: you have to really understand that if you ever make
Speaker 1: ten times your money on investment, it releases a certain
Speaker 1: chemical in your stomach. And that was my very first
Speaker 1: investment in my life. And so I UM, I ended
Speaker 1: up looking for um, what what can I do next?
Speaker 1: And UM I ended up with a job at Solomon
Speaker 1: Brothers at Solomon Brothers. UM I started to learn about
Speaker 1: the Russian market, and what I discovered was that when
Speaker 1: the communism ended and President Yelson became president, he decided
Speaker 1: he wanted to make Russia into a capitalist country, and
Speaker 1: that the way that he wanted to make Russia into
Speaker 1: a capitalist country was to basically give everything away for
Speaker 1: free to the people. And they were basically giving away
Speaker 1: the whole country for free. And then after it had
Speaker 1: been given away, it basically started trading at a at
Speaker 1: a at a slight premium to free which was still
Speaker 1: at a like a ninety nine discount to everything else
Speaker 1: in the world. And when I saw the prices of
Speaker 1: Russian stocks at discount, I said to myself, God, we
Speaker 1: should be investing in this stuff. And in fact, you
Speaker 1: started on your own investing in this stuff as a
Speaker 1: very young man. UM, how did that go? So? I I? UM.
Speaker 1: I left Solomon Brothers and I set up my own
Speaker 1: company called Hermitage Capital. I moved out to Moscow, and
Speaker 1: it just couldn't have gone better. In the first eighteen
Speaker 1: months of our fund, it was it was the single
Speaker 1: best performing fund in the world. I ended up on
Speaker 1: the cover of various newspapers and magazines. My clients for
Speaker 1: sending sending their private jets to entertain me on their yachts.
Speaker 1: Are fund had grown from twenty five million to more
Speaker 1: than a billion dollars of assets. And I was all
Speaker 1: of I was all all of thirty one years old.
Speaker 1: You were living large, weren't you, Bill Browner? Until it
Speaker 1: all went wrong. What happened well at that point, and
Speaker 1: so I was all of thirty one years old. And
Speaker 1: when all these big things are happening to you at
Speaker 1: that age, you don't have any perspective. But anyone looking
Speaker 1: at it from afar would have said, Wow, that's the
Speaker 1: biggest cell signal there ever was. And of course I
Speaker 1: didn't sell. And this was now in Russia, and they,
Speaker 1: the Russian government um defaulted on their debt. They devalued
Speaker 1: the currency by and my billion dollars of assets went down.
Speaker 1: I lost nine million dollars from my clients. It was
Speaker 1: the However, many people were entertaining me on their yachts
Speaker 1: on the way up. Sure weren't calling after I lost
Speaker 1: them of their money. It was a true and absolute
Speaker 1: Those invitations dried up quickly. But you made a discovery
Speaker 1: about corruption in Russia as you were trying to rebuild
Speaker 1: from this hole you were in, and and what did
Speaker 1: that lead to? Well, so, so what what I discovered
Speaker 1: was that that there are these people called the oligarchs.
Speaker 1: I think most people in the world know what that means.
Speaker 1: That these like super rich Russian guys. And and prior
Speaker 1: to they had kind of behaved themselves because a lot
Speaker 1: of fancy bankers from Wall Street were coming around and saying, hey,
Speaker 1: we can get you some free money on Wall Street.
Speaker 1: But after the crash, those Wall Street guys had all
Speaker 1: been fired from their jobs for getting involved with Russia.
Speaker 1: So there was no more free money from Wall Street,
Speaker 1: from Wall Street for these Russian oligarchs. And they said, heck,
Speaker 1: if there's no free money, there's no incentive to behave
Speaker 1: why don't we just take everything? Because there's no laws
Speaker 1: in Russia to prevent misbehavior. And so the oligarchs embarked
Speaker 1: on an orgy of stealing, which has been unprecedented in
Speaker 1: the history of business. They were doing assets stripping, transfer pricing, embezzelment, delusions,
Speaker 1: every possible way of stealing money. They were doing it.
Speaker 1: And I was sitting there with the last ten cents
Speaker 1: on the dollar of my client's money, and uh, there
Speaker 1: was you know, I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna let
Speaker 1: them steal this stuff for me, and so I ended
Speaker 1: up starting to have wars with the oligarchs to stop
Speaker 1: them from stealing. Not to sound like an idiot, but
Speaker 1: can you help me understand who these oligarchs are? You know,
Speaker 1: I have the this vision of these guys with a
Speaker 1: lot of gold jewelry and fancy suits kind of you know,
Speaker 1: with toothpicks. I have no who are these oligarchs? Well,
Speaker 1: there's not that many of them. First of all, that
Speaker 1: there were twenty two oligarchs that that sort of started
Speaker 1: out this whole process in Russia, and they were basically
Speaker 1: just guys with the sharp sharpest elbows and the most
Speaker 1: aggressive tactics of anybody in Russia. And what they did
Speaker 1: was they effectively cornered the market on everything. And so
Speaker 1: instead of all the assets going to all the people
Speaker 1: of Russia, which is what it was intended, all the
Speaker 1: assets ended up in the hands of these twenty two guys.
Speaker 1: And they're not nice guys. And you obviously became concerned
Speaker 1: about the corruption. But you're in Russia, I mean, what
Speaker 1: do you do. There's not really a better business bureau
Speaker 1: to go to. How do you deal with it if
Speaker 1: you want to expose corruption in Russia? Well, we tried everything.
Speaker 1: You know, we went to the government, and we discovered
Speaker 1: that the government didn't care in fact, that people in
Speaker 1: the government were benefiting you know, they were on the
Speaker 1: payroll of the oligarchs. Um. You can't go to the
Speaker 1: police because they're not policing. You can't go to the
Speaker 1: parliament because they aren't parliamenting, and um. And so the
Speaker 1: one thing we figured out that we could do was
Speaker 1: naming and shaming to publicly embarrassed, exposed and humiliate these people.
Speaker 1: And so we had great skills and doing the research
Speaker 1: on how they were going about doing the stealing. And
Speaker 1: I knew a lot of foreign correspondence in Moscow and
Speaker 1: so and these guys were always interested in a good
Speaker 1: oligarchs story, and so they would write about it and um.
Speaker 1: And interestingly, when they wrote about it, then the Russian
Speaker 1: press picked it up. And after the Russian press picked
Speaker 1: it up, then politicians would start sort of being a
Speaker 1: little embarrassed, maybe do something about it. And in a
Speaker 1: number of companies that we invested in this naming and
Speaker 1: shaming ended up leading to some of these bad practices
Speaker 1: stopping and the share prices of the companies we invested
Speaker 1: in rising in some cases very very dramatically. And so
Speaker 1: I developed in a sort of a new business model,
Speaker 1: which was going into bad companies in Russia, um doing
Speaker 1: the research, exposing the bad things going on, and then
Speaker 1: watching the share price rise. And we went from a
Speaker 1: hundred million dollars after the crash up to four and
Speaker 1: a half billion dollars after a few years of doing
Speaker 1: these these expose a s and I thought I was
Speaker 1: had perfect job that anyone could ever have, where I
Speaker 1: was making money hand over fist for my clients and
Speaker 1: myself and and we were also going out and getting
Speaker 1: the bad guys at the same time. And there was
Speaker 1: nothing more gratifying than that. And Bill, one of the
Speaker 1: allies that you UH discovered in your naming and shaming campaign,
Speaker 1: at least early on against the oigarchs was Vladimir Putin.
Speaker 1: Can you can you describe who Putin was at that
Speaker 1: point and kind of why you saw him as as
Speaker 1: being on your side? Well, yes, so Vladimir Putin. So
Speaker 1: when we first first started doing this was just around
Speaker 1: the time slightly earlier, but just around the time that
Speaker 1: Putin had come to power. And when he first came
Speaker 1: to power, he wasn't really the President of Russia, even
Speaker 1: though that was his title. He was sort of the
Speaker 1: president of the Presidential Administration of Russia because, um, that's
Speaker 1: all he really controlled. The rest of Russia was controlled
Speaker 1: by these oligarchs, these these twenty two guys I was
Speaker 1: telling you about. So so Putin, Um, he wanted to
Speaker 1: become president of the whole country, not just of his
Speaker 1: own administration, and so he was looking at ways in
Speaker 1: which to stop these oligarchs from stealing power from him.
Speaker 1: So Putin liked you for a while because you were
Speaker 1: taking power from the oligarchs, and that's what he wanted.
Speaker 1: But then suddenly he didn't like you that much. Why
Speaker 1: how did why did things change suddenly? Well, this was
Speaker 1: the interesting thing. So he was at war with the oligarchs,
Speaker 1: he was fighting them, but at some point in in
Speaker 1: his war he decided he wanted to make one big
Speaker 1: drastic move. And so what he did is, this was
Speaker 1: in late two thousand and three. There was the biggest
Speaker 1: oligarch in Russia. His name was Michael Hordakowski. He was
Speaker 1: the owner of a big oil company called Yukos, and
Speaker 1: he was considered to be the richest man in Russia,
Speaker 1: and he had been a pain to Putin. And so
Speaker 1: one day this guy was on his private jet in
Speaker 1: Siberia at the airport, and Putin ordered his his secret
Speaker 1: police to stop the jet at the airport, and then
Speaker 1: they raided the jet, grabbed the guy, arrested him and
Speaker 1: then put him in jail. Um. And and then they
Speaker 1: put him on trial. And by the way, in Russia,
Speaker 1: when you go on trial, UM, there's no presumption of
Speaker 1: innocence like you have in America, and so and there's
Speaker 1: like a ninety seven percent conviction rate, and so that
Speaker 1: when you go on trial, they stick you in a
Speaker 1: cage and so um and they and on this particular
Speaker 1: occasion they allowed the television cameras into the courtroom, so
Speaker 1: that um, they filmed the richest man in Russia sitting
Speaker 1: in a cage. And so, one by one by one, um,
Speaker 1: these oligarchs. At the end of the summer in two
Speaker 1: thousand and four, they went to Putin and they said, Vladimir,
Speaker 1: what do we have to do so we don't sit
Speaker 1: in that cage, and he said, oh, it's very straightforward.
Speaker 1: And when and when I say, this wasn't for the
Speaker 1: Russian government or for the presidential administration of Russia. This
Speaker 1: is for Vladimir Putin. And at that moment in time,
Speaker 1: Putin became the richest man in the world. How much
Speaker 1: is Putin worth, Well, everyone's got a different tim In
Speaker 1: and it's hard to prove because the money never is
Speaker 1: in his own name, is in the name of the
Speaker 1: these oligarchs. But my estimate is he's worth around two
Speaker 1: billion dollars, which make would make him the richest private
Speaker 1: individual in the world. Well, when we come back, we're
Speaker 1: going to talk more about the current state of affairs
Speaker 1: between Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Russia and the United States,
Speaker 1: and also why you are still so embroiled in Russian affairs,
Speaker 1: and that has to do with your former lawyer who
Speaker 1: is now dead. We'll be back with Bill Browder right
Speaker 1: after this. We're back with Bill Browder, who is the
Speaker 1: author of Red Notice, a true story of high finance,
Speaker 1: murder and one man's fight for justice. A real expert
Speaker 1: on Russia who can help us understand the pitfalls and
Speaker 1: perils and perhaps even benefits of a close relationship with Russia,
Speaker 1: which is in the news these days. But before we
Speaker 1: tackle that bill. In two thousand five, you were detained
Speaker 1: at an airport in Moscow. You were declared a threat
Speaker 1: to national security and we're banned from the country. Um.
Speaker 1: That must have been pretty terrifying, was it. That was
Speaker 1: terrifying for sure, when when you get some expelled from
Speaker 1: a country that you've lived in for ten years and
Speaker 1: where you're the largest foreign investor. Um, that's a big shock.
Speaker 1: But I knew that that's that's a minor sanction compared
Speaker 1: to what they could have done. The Russians turn on you,
Speaker 1: they tend to do so with extreme prejudice. When you
Speaker 1: say extreme prejudice, is that a euphemism for like your toast,
Speaker 1: you're dead. Well, there there's sort of three levels of
Speaker 1: of what could have happened to me. They could have
Speaker 1: killed me. They could have taken me hostage and put
Speaker 1: me in prison, or they could have expelled me. And
Speaker 1: in the in that little continuum, being expelled as hardly
Speaker 1: a sa ancition compared to the other two options. After
Speaker 1: you left Russia, you hired a local lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky
Speaker 1: to represent your interests as you were winding down your
Speaker 1: investment fund. There what happened to him, Well, so what
Speaker 1: happened was about eighteen months after I was expelled from Russia,
Speaker 1: twenty five police officers rated my office in Moscow and
Speaker 1: they seized all of our corporate documents, our stamps and
Speaker 1: seals and certificates for running our companies. And so I
Speaker 1: went out and I hired the smartest lawyer I knew
Speaker 1: in Russia was at the time a thirty five year
Speaker 1: old lawyer named Sergey Magnitsky. He worked for an American
Speaker 1: law firm in Moscow. I hired Sergey to help me
Speaker 1: investigate what these people were up to and to try
Speaker 1: to stop whatever they're doing. So Sergey goes and investigates,
Speaker 1: and he comes back about six months later and he says,
Speaker 1: I figured it out, and it's not pretty. And basically,
Speaker 1: what Sergey had discovered was that after we had sold
Speaker 1: all of our stock in Russia got all the money out,
Speaker 1: we had a big profit. We had a billion dollars
Speaker 1: of profits, and we paid two thirty million dollars of
Speaker 1: taxes to the Russian government. And when Serge had discovered
Speaker 1: was that the people who had rated our offices used
Speaker 1: those documents to steal our companies. And then they used
Speaker 1: are stolen companies to go back to the tax authorities
Speaker 1: and they and to say, all those taxes paid last year,
Speaker 1: that was a mistake, we'd like the money back. They
Speaker 1: applied for a two thirty million dollar illegal tax refund
Speaker 1: and the very next day it was approved and paid out.
Speaker 1: So essentially, government officials used your investment fund to steal
Speaker 1: two thirty million dollars for themselves and then and they
Speaker 1: were stealing it from their own government. They weren't stealing
Speaker 1: from me. There was this money we already paid to
Speaker 1: the Russian governments. They were stealing it from themselves. But
Speaker 1: it wasn't like the government from one pocket of the
Speaker 1: government to the other. This is from the government to
Speaker 1: a bunch of corrupt officials. What happened when Serge tried
Speaker 1: to expose this though, so when Sergey testified against these guys,
Speaker 1: he was waiting for the bad guys to get arrested.
Speaker 1: Instead are the bad guys being arrested. About six weeks
Speaker 1: after he testified, they came to his home at eight
Speaker 1: in the morning, um from his wife and two children,
Speaker 1: searched his apartment and then arrested him. They put him
Speaker 1: in pre trial detention, where he was then tortured to
Speaker 1: get him to withdraw his testimony. They put him in
Speaker 1: cells with fourteen inmates and eight beds and left the
Speaker 1: lights on twenty four hours a day to impose sleep deprivation.
Speaker 1: They put him in cells with no heat and no
Speaker 1: window panes in December and Moscow, so he nearly froze
Speaker 1: to death. They put him in cells with no toilet,
Speaker 1: just a hole in the floor where the sewage would
Speaker 1: bubble up. And they were doing all of this to
Speaker 1: try to get him to retract his testimony against the
Speaker 1: police officers. And they wanted to get him to sign
Speaker 1: a false confession to say that he stole the two
Speaker 1: thirty million dollars. So how on was he imprisoned and
Speaker 1: when did you learn of his fate? Um After about
Speaker 1: six months, he got sick. He lost forty pounds, He
Speaker 1: got terrible pains in his stomach, and he was diagnosed
Speaker 1: having pancreatitis and gallstones and needing an operation. He and
Speaker 1: his lawyers wrote twenty different requests to every different branch
Speaker 1: of the justice system in Russia, begging for medical attention.
Speaker 1: All of his requests were either ignored or denied, and
Speaker 1: then on the night of November sixteenth, two thousand nine,
Speaker 1: a year after he had been arrested, or nearly a
Speaker 1: year after he had been arrested, he went into critical condition,
Speaker 1: and so they put him in an ambulance, sent him
Speaker 1: over to a different prison facility. But instead of when
Speaker 1: he gets to the new place, instead of putting him
Speaker 1: in the emergency room, they put him in an isolation cell.
Speaker 1: They chained him to a bed, and then eight riot
Speaker 1: guards with rubber baton's beat him until he died at
Speaker 1: the age of thirty seven, leaving a wife and two children.
Speaker 1: Just hearing of his experience is horrifying, and it must
Speaker 1: have been devastating for you to feel so power list
Speaker 1: in this situation. I got the news the very next morning,
Speaker 1: and it was the most traumatic, heartbreaking, life changing news
Speaker 1: I could have ever gotten. The surge Magnitsky was killed
Speaker 1: because he was my lawyer. If he hadn't been my lawyer,
Speaker 1: he would have still been alive. And after getting over
Speaker 1: the absolute sort of shock of the whole situation, when
Speaker 1: I had enough composure to think about it. Clearly it
Speaker 1: was obvious that I only had one choice in life
Speaker 1: going forward, which was to put aside everything else I
Speaker 1: was doing, um and get justice for Sergey. And and
Speaker 1: just to provide people the kind of the background. While
Speaker 1: you were beginning your effort to get justice for Sergey,
Speaker 1: the US under President Obama in two thousand nine, was
Speaker 1: embarking on the famous Russian Reset. So there wasn't a
Speaker 1: lot of interest in the administration at the time to
Speaker 1: go after the Russians, right, Yeah, So we said to ourselves, well,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna be able to get justice for murder
Speaker 1: in Russia, but we could certainly try to stop these
Speaker 1: people from using traveling to the West and using the
Speaker 1: banking system and buying assets and so and so forth.
Speaker 1: And that's when I went to Washington to tell the story.
Speaker 1: And and that's when I encountered, um, what you just
Speaker 1: described before called the Obama Reset, where Obama had come
Speaker 1: into as president and he wanted to quote reset relations
Speaker 1: with Russia. Yeah. So just to give some context, Uh,
Speaker 1: at this point, Putin was no longer president, he was
Speaker 1: Prime Minister, and he was succeeded as president by this
Speaker 1: guy met Vedyev, who the West, including the United States,
Speaker 1: felt would be more cooperative, and in fact, the Obama
Speaker 1: people to this day argue that the first several years
Speaker 1: of the Reset were really productive in terms of getting
Speaker 1: a new arms control agreement, helping with the supply route
Speaker 1: in and out of Afghanistan, pressuring the Iranians and the
Speaker 1: North Koreans on nuclear issues. So what's your response to that, um, Well,
Speaker 1: the answer is they got some of those things, um,
Speaker 1: And they had to sacrifice a lot in order to
Speaker 1: get that, including human rights and uh, the security of
Speaker 1: of NATO allies in Poland and the Czech Republic and
Speaker 1: places like that, and so it was. It was a
Speaker 1: sort of narrow decision which which had a lot of
Speaker 1: ugly consequences, and it didn't last that long. Eventually they
Speaker 1: realized that Russia in America's interests were too two diversion.
Speaker 1: But that was the that was the environment in which
Speaker 1: I was trying to convince Washington to do something about
Speaker 1: the Magnetsky murder. And it was an uphill battle. For sure,
Speaker 1: you didn't find a receptive audience, but finally you did
Speaker 1: because the Magnetsky Act was passed in two thousand and twelve,
Speaker 1: what exactly did that do. Well. It's interesting because while
Speaker 1: the president at the time, Obama, didn't want to do
Speaker 1: anything they would ruffle the feathers of Russia. Um, there
Speaker 1: was another center of power, which was Congress. And I
Speaker 1: told the story that I've just shared with you to
Speaker 1: Democratic Senator from Maryland Benjamin Carton and a Republican Senator
Speaker 1: from Arizona, John McCain, and I said, can we can
Speaker 1: we put a law in place, um named after Sergei Magnisky,
Speaker 1: which would punish the people who killed him and punish
Speaker 1: people who do similar types of things. And they came
Speaker 1: up with what's now known as the Magnuski Act, which
Speaker 1: imposes visa sanctions and asset freezes on the people who
Speaker 1: do this kind of stuff. And it also puts their
Speaker 1: names on what's called the U. S. Treasury Sanctions List.
Speaker 1: And by by once your name is on that list,
Speaker 1: just next door to ISIS and al Qaeda terrorists and
Speaker 1: Colombian drug barons and so on and so forth. And
Speaker 1: in spite of the fact that Putin was apoplectic about this,
Speaker 1: he was truly enraged and furious. And in spite of
Speaker 1: the fact that this reset exists, President Obama really had
Speaker 1: no choice based on the popularity in the Congress, and
Speaker 1: he signed it into law. Um, there are now forty
Speaker 1: five people on the Magnisky List who are all sanctioned,
Speaker 1: many of them intimately involved in Sergey's torture and murder.
Speaker 1: How do you know Vladimir Putin was so personally enraged
Speaker 1: by this stuff? Well, we know because while this was
Speaker 1: going through, uh, he had a press conference literally that
Speaker 1: the same days that this was happening. He got something
Speaker 1: like seven questions at his annual press conference about the
Speaker 1: Magniski Act, and he got more and more agitated, more
Speaker 1: and more aggressive, and and more and more aggressive towards
Speaker 1: the Act, towards America and towards me personally. And shortly
Speaker 1: after that, they passed what they call the Anti Magniski
Speaker 1: Act in Russia, in which they banned the adoption of
Speaker 1: Russian orphans by American families. And I should point out
Speaker 1: that the only orphans that the Russians led American families adopt,
Speaker 1: we're sick orphans, and American families with open hearts and
Speaker 1: open arms would take these sick children in and nurse
Speaker 1: them back to health. And he banned them from adopting
Speaker 1: these sick children, which was effectively sentencing their own orphans,
Speaker 1: some of their own orphans to death, in order to
Speaker 1: protect his own corrupt officials. You're in a very unique position, Bill,
Speaker 1: given your background and your experiences in Russia, to talk
Speaker 1: about what is happening here in the United States and
Speaker 1: really around the world when it comes to how we
Speaker 1: see not only Vladimir Putin, but Russia itself. So what
Speaker 1: do you make of this coziness some say bromance between
Speaker 1: Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin? What is that about? Well, Um,
Speaker 1: what we know is that um Putin really doesn't like
Speaker 1: a few things. He doesn't like the NATO, which is
Speaker 1: this military treaty that the United States has with a
Speaker 1: number with twenty eight other countries. He doesn't like that
Speaker 1: because he knows he would lose the war against NATO,
Speaker 1: and so he'd rather not have that. He doesn't like
Speaker 1: the European Union because he doesn't like a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of countries together on dictating how he can't use gas
Speaker 1: as a weapon. Um. And he didn't like America telling
Speaker 1: him what he could and couldn't do, and that was
Speaker 1: his status quo with Obama, and he thought that if
Speaker 1: if Hillary Clinton was elected, then then that would more
Speaker 1: or less be the same thing. And so he wanted
Speaker 1: somebody other than Hillary Clinton being elected where there was
Speaker 1: a possibility of of that not being the same thing.
Speaker 1: And he was particularly excited by the warm words coming
Speaker 1: out of Donald Trump's mouth where he was saying how
Speaker 1: how much he admired Putin, and so on and so forth,
Speaker 1: and so you can see the champagne corks popping on
Speaker 1: election night in Russia. He's under the belief that he'll
Speaker 1: be able to achieve some of these objectives within a
Speaker 1: Trump president. So this is a new era for Russia
Speaker 1: in his view. And just let the records show you
Speaker 1: do not think Vladimir Putin is a good guy in
Speaker 1: any way, shape or form. If you had thirty seconds
Speaker 1: to explain why you think Putin's a schmuck, how would
Speaker 1: you do that. Well, I've seen with my own eyes
Speaker 1: and with evidence that Putin is a criminal. He's a
Speaker 1: criminal who's stolen an enormous amount of money from his country. Um,
Speaker 1: he's been involved directly in in a conspiracy to cover
Speaker 1: up the murder of my lawyer, Sergame Magnisky. He was
Speaker 1: personally involved in that, and I've seen how he's behaved.
Speaker 1: He's like Pablo Escobar, except he controls the country with nukes,
Speaker 1: and that's a very dangerous man to have in the world.
Speaker 1: You spoke earlier about the warm words that Donald Trump
Speaker 1: has for Vladimir Putin. What do you think is the
Speaker 1: explanation for that? You know, there's been a lot of
Speaker 1: discussion of this unconfirmed dossier that BuzzFeed put out. Um
Speaker 1: suppose atally showing compromise or a compromising information that the
Speaker 1: Russians have. Russian Brian, I do that just to pander
Speaker 1: to you? Uh, do you believe that stuff? And or
Speaker 1: or do you think there's some ideological basis for Trump's
Speaker 1: fondness for Putin? Well, I think that we're gonna end
Speaker 1: up knowing a lot more when we actually see what
Speaker 1: Trump decides to do. I mean, it's interesting because, on
Speaker 1: one hand, Trump has muttered some some very warm words
Speaker 1: towards Putin. On the other hand, he's staffed his most
Speaker 1: important national security jobs at the Defense Department, at the CIA,
Speaker 1: and the Homeland Security with absolute strong cold warriors. On
Speaker 1: the other hand, he appointed as Secretary of State one
Speaker 1: of the Americans, who's closest to Vladimir Putin, And he's
Speaker 1: praised Putin probably more than any other world leader. You're
Speaker 1: talking about Rex Tillerson exactly. So don't we already know
Speaker 1: that he's going to make a strong effort to be
Speaker 1: old closer ties with Putin. Well, so every president has
Speaker 1: done this, from George Bush through Obama now to Trump,
Speaker 1: or tried to do this, I should say, and try
Speaker 1: it and failed. So Donald Trump presents himself as a dealmaker.
Speaker 1: We already know what Putin wants from this deal. He
Speaker 1: wants sanctions lifted, he wants the end of NATO, he
Speaker 1: wants to break up the European Union. So the question
Speaker 1: is what does Donald Trump get out of that? Well, well, Bill,
Speaker 1: he hasn't had exactly you know, warm fuzzy words about NATO.
Speaker 1: I mean, Donald Trump built much of his campaign saying
Speaker 1: that he wasn't a big fan of NATO and that
Speaker 1: the United States shouldn't pay to defend all these countries.
Speaker 1: You know that we're not the world's policeman. So it
Speaker 1: seems to me that Putin and Trump are at least
Speaker 1: aligned on that, and they're also aligned on the collapse
Speaker 1: of the European Union, because Trump has been one of
Speaker 1: the foremost American supporters of the Brexit effort, and he's
Speaker 1: also touted other countries in Europe believing the European Union.
Speaker 1: So it seems like there's a tremendous amount of overlap
Speaker 1: in terms of their views. It does seem that way.
Speaker 1: And so the question is what does Trump get in return?
Speaker 1: What about the notion of joining forces with Russia to
Speaker 1: fight isis that's something that he has talked about a
Speaker 1: lot or did on the campaign trail. Well, that's a
Speaker 1: complete nonsense. Russia doesn't fight iis. Russia bombs the Syrian
Speaker 1: rebels who are trying to stop ASSAD. So Russia is
Speaker 1: bombing children, civilians, women, hospitals. If we're going to join Russia,
Speaker 1: I pray we're not going to get sucked into bombing
Speaker 1: innocent civilians in Syria because that would be the most
Speaker 1: horrific thing I could ever imagine. So why do you
Speaker 1: think Donald Trump has such a soft spot for Russia
Speaker 1: If we know they're not fighting isis? If we know
Speaker 1: that Putin's goals are very similar to others around the
Speaker 1: world who want to diminish American power, how do you
Speaker 1: explain it. I can't. There's no rational reason that I
Speaker 1: can see why he would do that. It doesn't make
Speaker 1: sense to me. Let me ask a simple, sophomoric, possibly
Speaker 1: stupid question that I think. I hope our listeners will appreciate.
Speaker 1: What is wrong with having a closer relationship with Russia.
Speaker 1: Couldn't we accomplish things together, as you know, a unified superpower,
Speaker 1: rather than be competitive adversaries. Well, it sounds great if
Speaker 1: it was possible. But Putin is a bad actor. So
Speaker 1: Putin has just invaded He invaded Georgia in two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight, he invaded Ukraine, UM in two thousand fourteen. UM,
Speaker 1: he's at war in Europe. Um. He wants to expand
Speaker 1: his empire. This is the first time since the end
Speaker 1: of the Second World War that borders have been redrawn.
Speaker 1: He's committing war crimes in Syria by bombing women and
Speaker 1: children in hospitals. And so, I mean, everybody wishes that
Speaker 1: he'd be a good actor. If we could have a
Speaker 1: good relationship with a good actor, that would be a
Speaker 1: great thing. But should we allow him to destabilize the
Speaker 1: world and bring death and misery to people, and to
Speaker 1: challenge the safety and security of Europe. I don't think so.
Speaker 1: I think that we know where that has led in
Speaker 1: the past. And unfortunately this man can't be appeased, and
Speaker 1: so the only option we really have is to contain him.
Speaker 1: And if what Trump is proposing is to basically give
Speaker 1: him a free ride on all of his bad actions,
Speaker 1: then he will it will encourage him to take more
Speaker 1: of those. It sounds to me like he's an egomaniacal,
Speaker 1: power hungry despot who cares only about himself. Is that
Speaker 1: an accurate characterization? And please don't give him my phone number. Well,
Speaker 1: what he is is he started out being a massive
Speaker 1: kleptocrat where he stole like all the money from the people.
Speaker 1: When the people started grumbling, he started worrying about them
Speaker 1: turning on him and deposing him like that like the
Speaker 1: people of Ukraine did of their leader, of their corrupt leader,
Speaker 1: and so he then started a war to distract them,
Speaker 1: and when when sanctions were put in place, he then
Speaker 1: started another war in Syria. His main objective is to
Speaker 1: stay in power, because he understands that if he's not
Speaker 1: in power, he'll lose his money, go to jail, and
Speaker 1: perhaps one of his enemies will kill him, and as such,
Speaker 1: staying in power is not such an easy thing to
Speaker 1: do in a place like Russia, because a lot of
Speaker 1: other people that wanted. And so the more as time
Speaker 1: goes on and the more difficult situations arise, the more
Speaker 1: he's got to become repressive in his own country and
Speaker 1: and aggressive um in foreign countries to keep his people distracted.
Speaker 1: Bill critics of yours more foreign policy realists would say
Speaker 1: that your understandable distress over the killing of your former
Speaker 1: lawyer has blinded you to the subtleties of the relationship.
Speaker 1: That there are areas in which our two countries cooperate
Speaker 1: in arms control, in our efforts in Afghanistan, in containing Iran,
Speaker 1: and that if we have a purely adversarial relationship in
Speaker 1: which we're attacking and going after the leader of Russia
Speaker 1: at every turn, it hurts the interests of the United
Speaker 1: States around the world. Is it possible that Putent's Russia
Speaker 1: shouldn't be seen in black and white, but in shades
Speaker 1: of gray. Um? Well, I mean, you can use whatever
Speaker 1: color analogies you want, but you've got a guy who
Speaker 1: will act aggressively using all tools to further his own
Speaker 1: interests and So the question is how do you keep
Speaker 1: him from using those tools in a way that's detrimental
Speaker 1: to our interests. And there are places where we have
Speaker 1: leverage and we have negotiating positions where he will negotiate
Speaker 1: with us, whether we're nice or whether we're mean. And
Speaker 1: there are places where we don't have leverage, where he
Speaker 1: where he will do whatever he wants. And if you
Speaker 1: mean any person in the military, serious person in the
Speaker 1: military in the West, and discuss Vladimir Putin anyone, they
Speaker 1: will tell you that you need to contain him, that
Speaker 1: that you can't give him any freedom of movement because
Speaker 1: whatever you give him, you'll take that and we can't
Speaker 1: get it back. And I'm long over my emotional distress
Speaker 1: with Ladimir Putin, and I've seen how he operates, and
Speaker 1: I'm just speaking in a calm, sober way that this
Speaker 1: man needs to be contained and how we go about
Speaker 1: interacting with him while we contain him. Sure we can talk,
Speaker 1: Sure we can negotiate, and sure some of those things
Speaker 1: that we discussed can be negotiated. But you can't give
Speaker 1: him the latitude to go and take over countries and
Speaker 1: do his bad actions, because the more latitude you give him,
Speaker 1: the more trouble will be in Does the notion of
Speaker 1: Secretary of State Rex Tillerson give you pause given his
Speaker 1: ties to Russia, given the photographs we've seen of him
Speaker 1: sitting next to Vladimir Putin. Well, I wasn't a great
Speaker 1: and of most of his answers in his confirmation hearing,
Speaker 1: he was very um equivocal about sanctions. He was saying,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't I won't commit to keeping them
Speaker 1: in place. The only the only thing he did say,
Speaker 1: which which I liked, was that he was ready to
Speaker 1: keep the Magnisky sanctions, which he has no power actually
Speaker 1: to repeal because they're in Act of Congress. But I
Speaker 1: didn't like the answers he he was giving because it
Speaker 1: was clear that he was trying to leave himself as
Speaker 1: much room for movement as he could um to take
Speaker 1: get rid of them, if that was what the policy was.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I'm scared that he's going to capitulate
Speaker 1: to Russia, which would be a bad thing. Bill. Can
Speaker 1: you just explain briefly what the sanctions do exactly and
Speaker 1: why they're biting the Russians so hard? Well, there's two
Speaker 1: types of sanctions. There are sanctions against high level individuals,
Speaker 1: targeted personal sanctions freezing assets and banning visas. And then
Speaker 1: there are sanctions which are called sectoral sanctions, which are
Speaker 1: sanctions which prevent Western American and European banks from lending
Speaker 1: money to Russian companies. And both sanctions are highly effective
Speaker 1: in their own special way. As I mentioned before, um
Speaker 1: there's a very small number of oligarchs who control almost
Speaker 1: all the economic assets of Russia, and Putin, by the way,
Speaker 1: is a partner with those oligarchs. And so basically, if
Speaker 1: you sanction a small number of people with with asset
Speaker 1: freezes and visa bands, that personally touches Putin, and he
Speaker 1: hates it and it makes his assets less valuable and
Speaker 1: it makes his own personal financial interests hit. Secondly, the
Speaker 1: sectorial sanctions means that Russia can't borrow money, and Russia
Speaker 1: needs to borrow money in order to roll over loans, etcetera, etcetera,
Speaker 1: and so as a result of them not being able
Speaker 1: to borrow money as a result of oil prices being down,
Speaker 1: they've depleted huge amounts of money from their national reserves
Speaker 1: and from their welfare funds, etcetera. In order to pay
Speaker 1: for things and the combination of these two things absolutely
Speaker 1: infuriates weekends and upsets putin. Here's another question from one
Speaker 1: of our listeners, and Ambler Pennsylvania. Let's listen. Hello. I
Speaker 1: saw Katie's post about what questions do you have about Russia?
Speaker 1: My question is more about Donald Trump's ties to Russia.
Speaker 1: Now that the transition has occurred in the inauguration has occurred.
Speaker 1: Who will hold Trump's team accountable to find ties between
Speaker 1: the campaign and Russia? And will it still be possible
Speaker 1: now that he has control of those government agencies that
Speaker 1: actually UM do the investigating I have been asking this
Speaker 1: question without stop and have not gotten an answer. I
Speaker 1: would really appreciate it if you would take the question.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much so, Bill. Who will hold Donald
Speaker 1: Trump's team accountable, UH, to make sure that the country
Speaker 1: is aware of any ties, either currently or in the
Speaker 1: past between the campaign and Russia. Well, I I think
Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit over dramatic as say that
Speaker 1: nobody in Congress UM will do anything about this, When
Speaker 1: when when Obama was in Congress and he didn't and
Speaker 1: he didn't want to do anything tough on Russia. The
Speaker 1: Democrats UM UH, led by a very liberal Democrat from
Speaker 1: from Maryland, Benjamin Carton, you know, acted against Obama in
Speaker 1: passing the Magnitsky Act, And I know many Republicans in
Speaker 1: Congress um that that if there is a real issue,
Speaker 1: if if if our relationship with Russia is harming our
Speaker 1: national interests, they're not going to go along with that.
Speaker 1: So I don't think it's as dire a situation as
Speaker 1: as as that um that person's question was. But there
Speaker 1: is some definite truth in that if you control the
Speaker 1: leavers of law enforcement and the leavers of power, it's
Speaker 1: a lot a lot harder for the people in those
Speaker 1: agencies to act against the interests of power. So hopefully
Speaker 1: the checks and balances, if they're needed, will will be working.
Speaker 1: And then, furthermore, we don't know what's going to happen
Speaker 1: in the next congressional election. Maybe the Republicans won't be
Speaker 1: dominating both houses of Congress. Things change very quickly in
Speaker 1: these types of situations, and we don't think that the
Speaker 1: world is going to fall apart today. We should note
Speaker 1: that the questions about Trump's team and their connections to
Speaker 1: Russia aren't limited just to Rex Tillerson, who's probably gonna
Speaker 1: be Secretary of State. They also include Michael Flynn, whom
Speaker 1: Trump is appointed to be National Security Advisor, which is
Speaker 1: an enormously powerful position. It's the person in the White
Speaker 1: House who briefs the president on national security every day,
Speaker 1: who mediates disputes between Defend States, CIA and others. And
Speaker 1: there were these calls between Flynn and the Russian ambassador
Speaker 1: which are now under investigation. So it seems like he's
Speaker 1: picking the Americans who are just known for their extraordinary
Speaker 1: closeness to Russia. Does that give you any additional concern
Speaker 1: about the direction that Trump is going to take? Well, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, we we We've talked about Tillerson, We've talked
Speaker 1: about Flynn, but what about Maddis, Um, what about Peo?
Speaker 1: What about the new Homeland Security secretary? And even with Flynn,
Speaker 1: I've heard both sides of the story. I've heard that
Speaker 1: he has no illusions about Russia. I've also seen pictures
Speaker 1: of him um at a Russia Today party with Putin.
Speaker 1: So I mean, it's very easy to feel worried and emotional,
Speaker 1: and I know a lot of people do. And I
Speaker 1: I'm looking for every signal and sign which way this
Speaker 1: thing is going to go. But I think it's a
Speaker 1: little bit too early to start saying that this is
Speaker 1: all a big, you know, takeover by Russia of our administration.
Speaker 1: But let's see what they actually do, and they might not.
Speaker 1: It might not be so bad, maybe it will be.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but but I think we're sort of
Speaker 1: jumping the gun a little bit until we see what
Speaker 1: the policies will be. Perhaps you can't read the tea
Speaker 1: leaves having said that bill the notion that the Russians
Speaker 1: meddled in US elections? I mean, isn't that something to
Speaker 1: be concerned about? Or have I seen the Manchurian candidate
Speaker 1: too many times? Well, there's two things. When is did
Speaker 1: they meddle in the election? The answer is yes, it's
Speaker 1: been pretty clear. The second is is there any quid
Speaker 1: pro quo for their meddling in the election? And that
Speaker 1: we don't know the answer to what do you mean
Speaker 1: quit pro quo from from the United States? So so
Speaker 1: it does Trump owe them anything if if they did.
Speaker 1: But I'm sorry to interrupt, but what about just the
Speaker 1: whole idea of them effing with our democratic process? I mean,
Speaker 1: shouldn't shouldn't they have to pay something for that? And
Speaker 1: what about the notion of increasing sanctions. And I guess
Speaker 1: didn't Lindsey Graham say this weekend, Brian that Senators would
Speaker 1: vote for some kind of punishment for the Russians meddling
Speaker 1: and the elections. Yeah, he was trying to send a
Speaker 1: signal to Trump that the sanctions pressure should go up,
Speaker 1: not down. Well, I agree with that, and I think
Speaker 1: that that Russia should be sanctioned, punished with great ferocity.
Speaker 1: And and I should point out that that sanctions work.
Speaker 1: People are all saying, well, sanctions. You know, the Russians
Speaker 1: haven't modified their behavior from sanctions. Let me tell you something.
Speaker 1: Putin wakes up every morning praise for sanctions to be lifted,
Speaker 1: and goes to bed every night praying for sanctions to
Speaker 1: be lifted. It affects him personally. It affects him profoundly.
Speaker 1: And he doesn't like these sanctions. And they were bad actors.
Speaker 1: They should be punished. And I hope very much that
Speaker 1: this is where our checks and balances come in. If
Speaker 1: there's like some kind of warmth for whatever reason from
Speaker 1: from Trump, that Congress, which is a separate section of
Speaker 1: power under the Constitution, will act to severely punish Russia.
Speaker 1: For their bad actions, because there needs to be consequences
Speaker 1: every time they do something bad, so they don't do
Speaker 1: bad things going forward. We talked about the Russians meddling
Speaker 1: in the American presidential election last year. Are you concerned
Speaker 1: about Russian meddling in the French and German elections that
Speaker 1: are happening this year and electing pro Putin candidates as
Speaker 1: a result. I'm concerned, and everybody in Europe is concerned,
Speaker 1: because the Russians have gotten good at this stuff. They're
Speaker 1: good at fake news, they're good at hacking, and they're
Speaker 1: good at manipulating the outcomes and even funding all sorts
Speaker 1: of fringe parties to pull people away from the center.
Speaker 1: And and by the way, it doesn't cost Putin nearly
Speaker 1: cost him nothing to to do this election manipulation compared
Speaker 1: to any kind of military adventures. And so he's out
Speaker 1: there using his technology fast and furious, hoping that he
Speaker 1: can upset the political balance all over the world and
Speaker 1: be able to achieve as objectives of breaking up the
Speaker 1: European Union and breaking up NATO. Russia is clearly rising
Speaker 1: right now. What will happen remains to be seen, but
Speaker 1: is Putin here to stay because I know he's enormously
Speaker 1: popular in Russia. Right now, what is his approval rating,
Speaker 1: Brian Bill, do either of you know percent? I mean
Speaker 1: that is just unheard of. Thirty years in prison. If
Speaker 1: you say that you're disapproved exactly. If you if you
Speaker 1: get a call from a stranger says do you support
Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin or not? What's your answer going to be?
Speaker 1: I Mean, what I find was strange about this eight
Speaker 1: percent is not the eight percent? But who who? Who
Speaker 1: are these twelve people who say they don't support poops
Speaker 1: there in prison? But do you see him going anywhere? Well,
Speaker 1: his objective is to stay in power until the end
Speaker 1: of his life. He has no other plans, and he
Speaker 1: really has to use every tool at his disposal to
Speaker 1: make sure that that's that happens. And he's very smart
Speaker 1: about this stuff. He doesn't he doesn't have to. He's
Speaker 1: not constrained by the same things we are. He has
Speaker 1: no he has no he has to worry about being elected.
Speaker 1: He doesn't have to worry about parliament. He doesn't have
Speaker 1: to worry about the courts, he doesn't have to worry
Speaker 1: about the press, none of the stuff that a normal
Speaker 1: world leader has to worry about, he has to worry about,
Speaker 1: and so he has degrees of freedom. And his biggest
Speaker 1: degree of freedom is that he has no morals. He
Speaker 1: will kill any number of people to stay in power.
Speaker 1: And so with a man with that, with all the tools,
Speaker 1: with with no morals, and with no constraints, he will
Speaker 1: stay in power unless something very dramatic happens. Well, it's
Speaker 1: a very scary time. And certainly this has been a
Speaker 1: very chilling conversation. So we don't end on such a
Speaker 1: terrifying note. I mean, what is your advice for Donald
Speaker 1: Trump and for Americans who are concerned about his growing
Speaker 1: use and abuse of power. And I'm talking about Putin's
Speaker 1: growing use and abuse of power, although some might argue
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump is doing the same thing. Well, if
Speaker 1: Donald Trump really wants to be a patriotic American and
Speaker 1: he wants to bring America first, he should use his
Speaker 1: strength and his eccentricity and his unconventional approach to completely
Speaker 1: um contain Vladimir Putin. That would be the right thing
Speaker 1: to do, That would be the patriotic thing to do,
Speaker 1: and that would be the thing that brings safety to
Speaker 1: American people. Vladimir Putin is much more dangerous adversary than
Speaker 1: isis can ever be. And the right thing to do,
Speaker 1: and the thing that will eventually be done by Trump
Speaker 1: or his ultimate successor, will be to surround Putin because
Speaker 1: he's the he's the guy whose interests are completely adverse
Speaker 1: to ours, Bill Browder, as I said, it's a it's
Speaker 1: a very very interesting, important conversation. I think Russia has
Speaker 1: been mentioned as often as the United States in recent weeks.
Speaker 1: You hear Vladimir Putin's name almost as often as Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: So clearly this is going to be a major story,
Speaker 1: I think in the weeks, months, possibly years to come,
Speaker 1: this strange relationship between our two countries. And we really
Speaker 1: appreciate your perspective on it today, and we really recommend
Speaker 1: your book, Red Notice, which reads like a thriller, but
Speaker 1: it is a true story and a pretty remarkable one.
Speaker 1: In fact, they're making a movie out of your book,
Speaker 1: aren't they, Bill, Um. A movie is in the process,
Speaker 1: and hopefully that will lead to many, many more Americans
Speaker 1: and people all around the world seeing Russia and Vladimir
Speaker 1: Putin for um what they really are. Well. Bill Browder, again,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for your time and best of luck
Speaker 1: to you, Thank you before we go, which is our
Speaker 1: version of Steve Harvey's just one more Thing, Brian, You
Speaker 1: and I noted during the inaugural ball, Donald Trump's rather
Speaker 1: strange selection of song for his first dance with Melania
Speaker 1: Trump with the First Lady. Yeah. He picked two songs
Speaker 1: that have really good titles, Frank Sinatra's My Way, Whitney
Speaker 1: Houston's I Will Always Love You, which by Dolly Dolly.
Speaker 1: Pardon exactly, but if you listen to the first verse
Speaker 1: of My Way, for example, it sends a kind of
Speaker 1: a different message. Are you asking me to sing it, Brian?
Speaker 1: Give the people what they want, Katie. And now the
Speaker 1: end is near, and so I face the final curtain.
Speaker 1: My friends all say clear, I'll state my case, of
Speaker 1: which I'm certain there is like a little Judy Garland.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit. I think. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I would want to start my presidency with the words.
Speaker 1: And now the end is near, and so I faced
Speaker 1: the final curtain. Would you no, nor uh? If I
Speaker 1: should stay, I would only be in your way. So
Speaker 1: I'll go, but I know I'll think of you every
Speaker 1: step of the way, which is the first part of
Speaker 1: I will always love you. So I think they need
Speaker 1: maybe a little more diligence on this. If we could
Speaker 1: pick another one for the Trump's, what would we pick.
Speaker 1: I think I would go back to Franklin Roosevelt's favorite
Speaker 1: campaign song. You know what that was, Katie. Happy days
Speaker 1: are here again? Exactly, Happy days are here again for
Speaker 1: at least half the country. The skies above or clear again,
Speaker 1: so at sing a song of cheer again, Happy days
Speaker 1: are here again. But nobody wants to hear me sing Yes, Brian,
Speaker 1: please don't ever do that again. Oh my god, that's
Speaker 1: the scary voice, as always are. Thanks to Gianna Palmer
Speaker 1: for producing the show and Jared O'Connell for engineering and
Speaker 1: mixing it. Thanks this week to Joe Miller for production
Speaker 1: assistance in London. And I have to say, Mark Phillips,
Speaker 1: I love our theme music. I listened to it when
Speaker 1: I shower. Not really, but also in addition to me, uh,
Speaker 1: Mitch Simmel and Brian Goldsmith are are executive producers. And
Speaker 1: remember you can email us at comments at Kirk podcast
Speaker 1: dot com or find me on social media. I'm on
Speaker 1: it way too much, people. I'm Katie Curic on Twitter
Speaker 1: and Instagram and Katie dot Kuric on Snapchat because I
Speaker 1: am so hip and jiggy with the youngster, and because
Speaker 1: I'm not hip and jiggy, I'm only on Twitter at
Speaker 1: at goldsmith b. Best of all, you can rate and
Speaker 1: review us on iTunes. Would really appreciate it if you
Speaker 1: would subscribe to the show as well. That helps more
Speaker 1: listeners to find it and we will talk to you
Speaker 1: next time. Thanks so much for listening. By everybody,