1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, Brian. Hi Katie. So I'm gonna ask you to 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: play the role of therapists today, Brian, which you often 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: serve for me. My price is right good. I'm worried 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 1: about Russia. It seems clear, according to intelligence agencies and 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: Donald Trump himself, that somehow they did meddle in our 6 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: electoral process. I'm worried about this reboot of our relationship, 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: which on the face of it doesn't sound like a 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: bad idea, but it seems much more than a reboot. 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: It seems like a rekindling. And I don't really understand 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: the pros and cons of a closer relationship with Russia. 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: Now I'll be your therapist, Brian. Wouldn't be the first time. 12 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 1: Are you worried about Russia? And how does that make 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: you feel? You know? I am, because nowhere is the 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: change of administration more apparent than in our newfound coziness 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: with the Russians. Trump has brought in a lot of 16 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: Putin loyalists to his administration. Some of the Americans who 17 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: are the closest to Vladimir Putin and Russia at least 18 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: over the past ten years, has been a pretty bad 19 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: actor on the global stage, invading countries causing instability hurting 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: the United States, and so we really wanted to talk 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: to somebody who understood the Russian people, the Russian government 22 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: from the inside out, someone with a very interesting personal history. 23 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,119 Speaker 1: He's written a book called Red Notice, a true story 24 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: of high finance, murder, and one man's fight for justice. 25 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: Brian my friends have been raving about this book, and 26 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: we thought Bill Browder would be a good person to 27 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: really start to unpack the perils and opportunities of a 28 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: closer relationship with Russia, and someone who really understands who 29 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin is and what he's all about. So if 30 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: you're optimistic about a new and mutually beneficial US Russian relationship, 31 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: listen to Bill Browder. First, Bill Browder, thanks so much 32 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: for talking with us today. We're thrilled to have you. 33 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: Great to be here. You have such a fascinating backstory, 34 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: to say the least, and we're going to share with 35 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: our listeners this story of intrigue and tragedy that you 36 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: have been immersed in for the last several years. But 37 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: Brian and I thought we would start by asking you 38 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: about Donald Trump's inauguration. He is now President of the 39 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: United States, and I just would like to get your 40 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: reaction to that very fact. Well, it's it's it's a 41 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: true mystery to me. What's actually going to happen them. 42 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: I've seen so many different people telling me so many 43 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: different things. Um people saying, look at all the the 44 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: smart people around him, everything is gonna be great, It's 45 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: gonna be fine. And then I read a tweet that 46 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: he has been written in the middle of the night, 47 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: and I have panic, And I'm just waiting to see 48 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: on the issues that I'm most sensitive to what he's 49 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: gonna do, and that that really relates to Vladimir Putin 50 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: and Russia. But doesn't it seem like he's quite sympathetic 51 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: to Vladimir Putin, That Putin clearly made a choice going 52 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: into election day that Trump was going to be his guy. 53 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: It seems that way. It certainly seems that way from 54 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: the Russian side. It's I was just at the World 55 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: Economic Forum in Davos, and the Russians were all they 56 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: all had a bounce in their step, and they were 57 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: all celebrating and smiling and planning for the lifting of 58 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: sanctions and looking for all sorts of gifts from Donald Trump. 59 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: But we we we still don't know if that's actually 60 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: going to happen. I mean, this may be their own fantasy. 61 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: And he's you know, it's not clear what he's gonna do. 62 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: He he claims to be a big dealmaker. UM, I 63 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: don't know what deal he's going to do and whether 64 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: there's any deal to be done. I mean, if you 65 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: really look at it, the Russians are asking for lots 66 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: of stuff, and um, Putin doesn't have much to offer 67 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: in return. And so if Trump really is a deal 68 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: maker and a good businessman, um, maybe they're not going 69 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: to get what they're asking for. Bill, you have a 70 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: very interesting relationship with Vladimir Putin, and for our listeners 71 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: to understand that, I think we should start at the 72 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: very beginning. What was a nice guy like you doing 73 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: in a place like Moscow. Well, I've got a funny, 74 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: funny story, strange story. I come from this family of 75 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: famous American communists. UM. I was born in nineteen sixty four, 76 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: and when I was going through my teenage rebellion, I 77 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: looked around and I said, what's the best way that 78 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: I can rebel from this family of communists? And I 79 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: figured out that the best best thing to do is 80 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: to put on a suit and time become a capitalist. 81 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 1: There was nothing I could do the cause my parents 82 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: more pain than that, and so I became a capitalist. U. 83 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,119 Speaker 1: I went to Stanford Business School and I graduated business 84 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: school in which was the year of the Berlin Wall 85 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: came down. And as I was looking around for UM, 86 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: what to do with my life next, I had this epiphany, 87 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: which was, if my grandfather was the biggest communist in 88 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: America and the Berlin Wall has just come down, I'm 89 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: going to try to become the biggest capitalist in Russia. 90 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: And that's what I set out to do. I think 91 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: this thing started when you invested about two thousand dollars 92 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: and a handful of Polish companies in the early nineties. 93 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: You made ten times your money and you called at 94 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: the financial equivalent of crack cocaine. Where did that lead? Well, 95 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: you have to really understand that if you ever make 96 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: ten times your money on investment, it releases a certain 97 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: chemical in your stomach. And that was my very first 98 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: investment in my life. And so I UM, I ended 99 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: up looking for um, what what can I do next? 100 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: And UM I ended up with a job at Solomon 101 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: Brothers at Solomon Brothers. UM I started to learn about 102 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: the Russian market, and what I discovered was that when 103 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: the communism ended and President Yelson became president, he decided 104 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: he wanted to make Russia into a capitalist country, and 105 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: that the way that he wanted to make Russia into 106 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: a capitalist country was to basically give everything away for 107 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: free to the people. And they were basically giving away 108 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: the whole country for free. And then after it had 109 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: been given away, it basically started trading at a at 110 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: a at a slight premium to free which was still 111 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: at a like a ninety nine discount to everything else 112 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: in the world. And when I saw the prices of 113 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: Russian stocks at discount, I said to myself, God, we 114 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: should be investing in this stuff. And in fact, you 115 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: started on your own investing in this stuff as a 116 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: very young man. UM, how did that go? So? I I? UM. 117 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: I left Solomon Brothers and I set up my own 118 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: company called Hermitage Capital. I moved out to Moscow, and 119 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: it just couldn't have gone better. In the first eighteen 120 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: months of our fund, it was it was the single 121 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: best performing fund in the world. I ended up on 122 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: the cover of various newspapers and magazines. My clients for 123 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 1: sending sending their private jets to entertain me on their yachts. 124 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: Are fund had grown from twenty five million to more 125 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: than a billion dollars of assets. And I was all 126 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: of I was all all of thirty one years old. 127 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: You were living large, weren't you, Bill Browner? Until it 128 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: all went wrong. What happened well at that point, and 129 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: so I was all of thirty one years old. And 130 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: when all these big things are happening to you at 131 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: that age, you don't have any perspective. But anyone looking 132 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: at it from afar would have said, Wow, that's the 133 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: biggest cell signal there ever was. And of course I 134 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: didn't sell. And this was now in Russia, and they, 135 00:07:55,640 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: the Russian government um defaulted on their debt. They devalued 136 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: the currency by and my billion dollars of assets went down. 137 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: I lost nine million dollars from my clients. It was 138 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: the However, many people were entertaining me on their yachts 139 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: on the way up. Sure weren't calling after I lost 140 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: them of their money. It was a true and absolute 141 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: Those invitations dried up quickly. But you made a discovery 142 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: about corruption in Russia as you were trying to rebuild 143 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: from this hole you were in, and and what did 144 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: that lead to? Well, so, so what what I discovered 145 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: was that that there are these people called the oligarchs. 146 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: I think most people in the world know what that means. 147 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: That these like super rich Russian guys. And and prior 148 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: to they had kind of behaved themselves because a lot 149 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: of fancy bankers from Wall Street were coming around and saying, hey, 150 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: we can get you some free money on Wall Street. 151 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: But after the crash, those Wall Street guys had all 152 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: been fired from their jobs for getting involved with Russia. 153 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: So there was no more free money from Wall Street, 154 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: from Wall Street for these Russian oligarchs. And they said, heck, 155 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: if there's no free money, there's no incentive to behave 156 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: why don't we just take everything? Because there's no laws 157 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: in Russia to prevent misbehavior. And so the oligarchs embarked 158 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: on an orgy of stealing, which has been unprecedented in 159 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 1: the history of business. They were doing assets stripping, transfer pricing, embezzelment, delusions, 160 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: every possible way of stealing money. They were doing it. 161 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: And I was sitting there with the last ten cents 162 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: on the dollar of my client's money, and uh, there 163 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: was you know, I wasn't gonna I wasn't gonna let 164 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 1: them steal this stuff for me, and so I ended 165 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: up starting to have wars with the oligarchs to stop 166 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: them from stealing. Not to sound like an idiot, but 167 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: can you help me understand who these oligarchs are? You know, 168 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: I have the this vision of these guys with a 169 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: lot of gold jewelry and fancy suits kind of you know, 170 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: with toothpicks. I have no who are these oligarchs? Well, 171 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: there's not that many of them. First of all, that 172 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: there were twenty two oligarchs that that sort of started 173 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: out this whole process in Russia, and they were basically 174 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: just guys with the sharp sharpest elbows and the most 175 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: aggressive tactics of anybody in Russia. And what they did 176 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: was they effectively cornered the market on everything. And so 177 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: instead of all the assets going to all the people 178 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: of Russia, which is what it was intended, all the 179 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: assets ended up in the hands of these twenty two guys. 180 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: And they're not nice guys. And you obviously became concerned 181 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: about the corruption. But you're in Russia, I mean, what 182 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: do you do. There's not really a better business bureau 183 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: to go to. How do you deal with it if 184 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: you want to expose corruption in Russia? Well, we tried everything. 185 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: You know, we went to the government, and we discovered 186 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: that the government didn't care in fact, that people in 187 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: the government were benefiting you know, they were on the 188 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,599 Speaker 1: payroll of the oligarchs. Um. You can't go to the 189 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: police because they're not policing. You can't go to the 190 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: parliament because they aren't parliamenting, and um. And so the 191 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: one thing we figured out that we could do was 192 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: naming and shaming to publicly embarrassed, exposed and humiliate these people. 193 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: And so we had great skills and doing the research 194 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: on how they were going about doing the stealing. And 195 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: I knew a lot of foreign correspondence in Moscow and 196 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: so and these guys were always interested in a good 197 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: oligarchs story, and so they would write about it and um. 198 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: And interestingly, when they wrote about it, then the Russian 199 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: press picked it up. And after the Russian press picked 200 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 1: it up, then politicians would start sort of being a 201 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: little embarrassed, maybe do something about it. And in a 202 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: number of companies that we invested in this naming and 203 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: shaming ended up leading to some of these bad practices 204 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: stopping and the share prices of the companies we invested 205 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: in rising in some cases very very dramatically. And so 206 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: I developed in a sort of a new business model, 207 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: which was going into bad companies in Russia, um doing 208 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: the research, exposing the bad things going on, and then 209 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: watching the share price rise. And we went from a 210 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars after the crash up to four and 211 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: a half billion dollars after a few years of doing 212 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: these these expose a s and I thought I was 213 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: had perfect job that anyone could ever have, where I 214 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: was making money hand over fist for my clients and 215 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: myself and and we were also going out and getting 216 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 1: the bad guys at the same time. And there was 217 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: nothing more gratifying than that. And Bill, one of the 218 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: allies that you UH discovered in your naming and shaming campaign, 219 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: at least early on against the oigarchs was Vladimir Putin. 220 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: Can you can you describe who Putin was at that 221 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: point and kind of why you saw him as as 222 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: being on your side? Well, yes, so Vladimir Putin. So 223 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: when we first first started doing this was just around 224 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: the time slightly earlier, but just around the time that 225 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: Putin had come to power. And when he first came 226 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: to power, he wasn't really the President of Russia, even 227 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: though that was his title. He was sort of the 228 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: president of the Presidential Administration of Russia because, um, that's 229 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: all he really controlled. The rest of Russia was controlled 230 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: by these oligarchs, these these twenty two guys I was 231 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: telling you about. So so Putin, Um, he wanted to 232 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: become president of the whole country, not just of his 233 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: own administration, and so he was looking at ways in 234 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: which to stop these oligarchs from stealing power from him. 235 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: So Putin liked you for a while because you were 236 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: taking power from the oligarchs, and that's what he wanted. 237 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: But then suddenly he didn't like you that much. Why 238 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 1: how did why did things change suddenly? Well, this was 239 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: the interesting thing. So he was at war with the oligarchs, 240 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: he was fighting them, but at some point in in 241 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 1: his war he decided he wanted to make one big 242 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: drastic move. And so what he did is, this was 243 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: in late two thousand and three. There was the biggest 244 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: oligarch in Russia. His name was Michael Hordakowski. He was 245 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: the owner of a big oil company called Yukos, and 246 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: he was considered to be the richest man in Russia, 247 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: and he had been a pain to Putin. And so 248 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: one day this guy was on his private jet in 249 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: Siberia at the airport, and Putin ordered his his secret 250 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: police to stop the jet at the airport, and then 251 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: they raided the jet, grabbed the guy, arrested him and 252 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: then put him in jail. Um. And and then they 253 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: put him on trial. And by the way, in Russia, 254 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: when you go on trial, UM, there's no presumption of 255 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: innocence like you have in America, and so and there's 256 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: like a ninety seven percent conviction rate, and so that 257 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: when you go on trial, they stick you in a 258 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: cage and so um and they and on this particular 259 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: occasion they allowed the television cameras into the courtroom, so 260 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: that um, they filmed the richest man in Russia sitting 261 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: in a cage. And so, one by one by one, um, 262 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: these oligarchs. At the end of the summer in two 263 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: thousand and four, they went to Putin and they said, Vladimir, 264 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: what do we have to do so we don't sit 265 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: in that cage, and he said, oh, it's very straightforward. 266 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: And when and when I say, this wasn't for the 267 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: Russian government or for the presidential administration of Russia. This 268 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: is for Vladimir Putin. And at that moment in time, 269 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,360 Speaker 1: Putin became the richest man in the world. How much 270 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: is Putin worth, Well, everyone's got a different tim In 271 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: and it's hard to prove because the money never is 272 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: in his own name, is in the name of the 273 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: these oligarchs. But my estimate is he's worth around two 274 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: billion dollars, which make would make him the richest private 275 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: individual in the world. Well, when we come back, we're 276 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: going to talk more about the current state of affairs 277 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: between Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, Russia and the United States, 278 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: and also why you are still so embroiled in Russian affairs, 279 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: and that has to do with your former lawyer who 280 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: is now dead. We'll be back with Bill Browder right 281 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: after this. We're back with Bill Browder, who is the 282 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: author of Red Notice, a true story of high finance, 283 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: murder and one man's fight for justice. A real expert 284 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: on Russia who can help us understand the pitfalls and 285 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: perils and perhaps even benefits of a close relationship with Russia, 286 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: which is in the news these days. But before we 287 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: tackle that bill. In two thousand five, you were detained 288 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: at an airport in Moscow. You were declared a threat 289 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: to national security and we're banned from the country. Um. 290 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: That must have been pretty terrifying, was it. That was 291 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: terrifying for sure, when when you get some expelled from 292 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: a country that you've lived in for ten years and 293 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: where you're the largest foreign investor. Um, that's a big shock. 294 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: But I knew that that's that's a minor sanction compared 295 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: to what they could have done. The Russians turn on you, 296 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: they tend to do so with extreme prejudice. When you 297 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: say extreme prejudice, is that a euphemism for like your toast, 298 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: you're dead. Well, there there's sort of three levels of 299 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: of what could have happened to me. They could have 300 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: killed me. They could have taken me hostage and put 301 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: me in prison, or they could have expelled me. And 302 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: in the in that little continuum, being expelled as hardly 303 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: a sa ancition compared to the other two options. After 304 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: you left Russia, you hired a local lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky 305 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: to represent your interests as you were winding down your 306 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: investment fund. There what happened to him, Well, so what 307 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: happened was about eighteen months after I was expelled from Russia, 308 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: twenty five police officers rated my office in Moscow and 309 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: they seized all of our corporate documents, our stamps and 310 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: seals and certificates for running our companies. And so I 311 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: went out and I hired the smartest lawyer I knew 312 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: in Russia was at the time a thirty five year 313 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: old lawyer named Sergey Magnitsky. He worked for an American 314 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: law firm in Moscow. I hired Sergey to help me 315 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: investigate what these people were up to and to try 316 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: to stop whatever they're doing. So Sergey goes and investigates, 317 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: and he comes back about six months later and he says, 318 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: I figured it out, and it's not pretty. And basically, 319 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: what Sergey had discovered was that after we had sold 320 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: all of our stock in Russia got all the money out, 321 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: we had a big profit. We had a billion dollars 322 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: of profits, and we paid two thirty million dollars of 323 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: taxes to the Russian government. And when Serge had discovered 324 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: was that the people who had rated our offices used 325 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 1: those documents to steal our companies. And then they used 326 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: are stolen companies to go back to the tax authorities 327 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: and they and to say, all those taxes paid last year, 328 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 1: that was a mistake, we'd like the money back. They 329 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: applied for a two thirty million dollar illegal tax refund 330 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: and the very next day it was approved and paid out. 331 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: So essentially, government officials used your investment fund to steal 332 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: two thirty million dollars for themselves and then and they 333 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: were stealing it from their own government. They weren't stealing 334 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: from me. There was this money we already paid to 335 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,320 Speaker 1: the Russian governments. They were stealing it from themselves. But 336 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't like the government from one pocket of the 337 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: government to the other. This is from the government to 338 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of corrupt officials. What happened when Serge tried 339 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: to expose this though, so when Sergey testified against these guys, 340 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 1: he was waiting for the bad guys to get arrested. 341 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: Instead are the bad guys being arrested. About six weeks 342 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: after he testified, they came to his home at eight 343 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: in the morning, um from his wife and two children, 344 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: searched his apartment and then arrested him. They put him 345 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: in pre trial detention, where he was then tortured to 346 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: get him to withdraw his testimony. They put him in 347 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 1: cells with fourteen inmates and eight beds and left the 348 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: lights on twenty four hours a day to impose sleep deprivation. 349 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: They put him in cells with no heat and no 350 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: window panes in December and Moscow, so he nearly froze 351 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 1: to death. They put him in cells with no toilet, 352 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: just a hole in the floor where the sewage would 353 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: bubble up. And they were doing all of this to 354 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: try to get him to retract his testimony against the 355 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: police officers. And they wanted to get him to sign 356 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: a false confession to say that he stole the two 357 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: thirty million dollars. So how on was he imprisoned and 358 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: when did you learn of his fate? Um After about 359 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: six months, he got sick. He lost forty pounds, He 360 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: got terrible pains in his stomach, and he was diagnosed 361 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: having pancreatitis and gallstones and needing an operation. He and 362 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: his lawyers wrote twenty different requests to every different branch 363 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: of the justice system in Russia, begging for medical attention. 364 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: All of his requests were either ignored or denied, and 365 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: then on the night of November sixteenth, two thousand nine, 366 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: a year after he had been arrested, or nearly a 367 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: year after he had been arrested, he went into critical condition, 368 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: and so they put him in an ambulance, sent him 369 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: over to a different prison facility. But instead of when 370 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:39,479 Speaker 1: he gets to the new place, instead of putting him 371 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: in the emergency room, they put him in an isolation cell. 372 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: They chained him to a bed, and then eight riot 373 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: guards with rubber baton's beat him until he died at 374 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: the age of thirty seven, leaving a wife and two children. 375 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: Just hearing of his experience is horrifying, and it must 376 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: have been devastating for you to feel so power list 377 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: in this situation. I got the news the very next morning, 378 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: and it was the most traumatic, heartbreaking, life changing news 379 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: I could have ever gotten. The surge Magnitsky was killed 380 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: because he was my lawyer. If he hadn't been my lawyer, 381 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 1: he would have still been alive. And after getting over 382 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: the absolute sort of shock of the whole situation, when 383 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: I had enough composure to think about it. Clearly it 384 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: was obvious that I only had one choice in life 385 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,159 Speaker 1: going forward, which was to put aside everything else I 386 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:37,239 Speaker 1: was doing, um and get justice for Sergey. And and 387 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: just to provide people the kind of the background. While 388 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: you were beginning your effort to get justice for Sergey, 389 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: the US under President Obama in two thousand nine, was 390 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: embarking on the famous Russian Reset. So there wasn't a 391 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: lot of interest in the administration at the time to 392 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: go after the Russians, right, Yeah, So we said to ourselves, well, 393 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: we're not gonna be able to get justice for murder 394 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: in Russia, but we could certainly try to stop these 395 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: people from using traveling to the West and using the 396 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: banking system and buying assets and so and so forth. 397 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: And that's when I went to Washington to tell the story. 398 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: And and that's when I encountered, um, what you just 399 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: described before called the Obama Reset, where Obama had come 400 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: into as president and he wanted to quote reset relations 401 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,239 Speaker 1: with Russia. Yeah. So just to give some context, Uh, 402 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: at this point, Putin was no longer president, he was 403 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 1: Prime Minister, and he was succeeded as president by this 404 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: guy met Vedyev, who the West, including the United States, 405 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: felt would be more cooperative, and in fact, the Obama 406 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: people to this day argue that the first several years 407 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: of the Reset were really productive in terms of getting 408 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: a new arms control agreement, helping with the supply route 409 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: in and out of Afghanistan, pressuring the Iranians and the 410 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: North Koreans on nuclear issues. So what's your response to that, um, Well, 411 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: the answer is they got some of those things, um, 412 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: And they had to sacrifice a lot in order to 413 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: get that, including human rights and uh, the security of 414 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: of NATO allies in Poland and the Czech Republic and 415 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: places like that, and so it was. It was a 416 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: sort of narrow decision which which had a lot of 417 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: ugly consequences, and it didn't last that long. Eventually they 418 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: realized that Russia in America's interests were too two diversion. 419 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: But that was the that was the environment in which 420 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: I was trying to convince Washington to do something about 421 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: the Magnetsky murder. And it was an uphill battle. For sure, 422 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: you didn't find a receptive audience, but finally you did 423 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: because the Magnetsky Act was passed in two thousand and twelve, 424 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: what exactly did that do. Well. It's interesting because while 425 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: the president at the time, Obama, didn't want to do 426 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: anything they would ruffle the feathers of Russia. Um, there 427 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: was another center of power, which was Congress. And I 428 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: told the story that I've just shared with you to 429 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: Democratic Senator from Maryland Benjamin Carton and a Republican Senator 430 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: from Arizona, John McCain, and I said, can we can 431 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: we put a law in place, um named after Sergei Magnisky, 432 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: which would punish the people who killed him and punish 433 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 1: people who do similar types of things. And they came 434 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: up with what's now known as the Magnuski Act, which 435 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 1: imposes visa sanctions and asset freezes on the people who 436 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,199 Speaker 1: do this kind of stuff. And it also puts their 437 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: names on what's called the U. S. Treasury Sanctions List. 438 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: And by by once your name is on that list, 439 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: just next door to ISIS and al Qaeda terrorists and 440 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: Colombian drug barons and so on and so forth. And 441 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: in spite of the fact that Putin was apoplectic about this, 442 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: he was truly enraged and furious. And in spite of 443 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: the fact that this reset exists, President Obama really had 444 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: no choice based on the popularity in the Congress, and 445 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: he signed it into law. Um, there are now forty 446 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: five people on the Magnisky List who are all sanctioned, 447 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: many of them intimately involved in Sergey's torture and murder. 448 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: How do you know Vladimir Putin was so personally enraged 449 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: by this stuff? Well, we know because while this was 450 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: going through, uh, he had a press conference literally that 451 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: the same days that this was happening. He got something 452 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: like seven questions at his annual press conference about the 453 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: Magniski Act, and he got more and more agitated, more 454 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: and more aggressive, and and more and more aggressive towards 455 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: the Act, towards America and towards me personally. And shortly 456 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: after that, they passed what they call the Anti Magniski 457 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: Act in Russia, in which they banned the adoption of 458 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: Russian orphans by American families. And I should point out 459 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: that the only orphans that the Russians led American families adopt, 460 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: we're sick orphans, and American families with open hearts and 461 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: open arms would take these sick children in and nurse 462 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: them back to health. And he banned them from adopting 463 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: these sick children, which was effectively sentencing their own orphans, 464 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: some of their own orphans to death, in order to 465 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: protect his own corrupt officials. You're in a very unique position, Bill, 466 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: given your background and your experiences in Russia, to talk 467 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: about what is happening here in the United States and 468 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,399 Speaker 1: really around the world when it comes to how we 469 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 1: see not only Vladimir Putin, but Russia itself. So what 470 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: do you make of this coziness some say bromance between 471 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin? What is that about? Well, Um, 472 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 1: what we know is that um Putin really doesn't like 473 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: a few things. He doesn't like the NATO, which is 474 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: this military treaty that the United States has with a 475 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,959 Speaker 1: number with twenty eight other countries. He doesn't like that 476 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: because he knows he would lose the war against NATO, 477 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: and so he'd rather not have that. He doesn't like 478 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: the European Union because he doesn't like a whole bunch 479 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: of countries together on dictating how he can't use gas 480 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: as a weapon. Um. And he didn't like America telling 481 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: him what he could and couldn't do, and that was 482 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: his status quo with Obama, and he thought that if 483 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,239 Speaker 1: if Hillary Clinton was elected, then then that would more 484 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: or less be the same thing. And so he wanted 485 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: somebody other than Hillary Clinton being elected where there was 486 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: a possibility of of that not being the same thing. 487 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: And he was particularly excited by the warm words coming 488 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: out of Donald Trump's mouth where he was saying how 489 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: how much he admired Putin, and so on and so forth, 490 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: and so you can see the champagne corks popping on 491 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: election night in Russia. He's under the belief that he'll 492 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: be able to achieve some of these objectives within a 493 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: Trump president. So this is a new era for Russia 494 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: in his view. And just let the records show you 495 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: do not think Vladimir Putin is a good guy in 496 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: any way, shape or form. If you had thirty seconds 497 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: to explain why you think Putin's a schmuck, how would 498 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: you do that. Well, I've seen with my own eyes 499 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: and with evidence that Putin is a criminal. He's a 500 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: criminal who's stolen an enormous amount of money from his country. Um, 501 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: he's been involved directly in in a conspiracy to cover 502 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: up the murder of my lawyer, Sergame Magnisky. He was 503 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: personally involved in that, and I've seen how he's behaved. 504 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: He's like Pablo Escobar, except he controls the country with nukes, 505 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: and that's a very dangerous man to have in the world. 506 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: You spoke earlier about the warm words that Donald Trump 507 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: has for Vladimir Putin. What do you think is the 508 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: explanation for that? You know, there's been a lot of 509 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: discussion of this unconfirmed dossier that BuzzFeed put out. Um 510 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: suppose atally showing compromise or a compromising information that the 511 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: Russians have. Russian Brian, I do that just to pander 512 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: to you? Uh, do you believe that stuff? And or 513 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: or do you think there's some ideological basis for Trump's 514 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: fondness for Putin? Well, I think that we're gonna end 515 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: up knowing a lot more when we actually see what 516 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: Trump decides to do. I mean, it's interesting because, on 517 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: one hand, Trump has muttered some some very warm words 518 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: towards Putin. On the other hand, he's staffed his most 519 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: important national security jobs at the Defense Department, at the CIA, 520 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: and the Homeland Security with absolute strong cold warriors. On 521 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: the other hand, he appointed as Secretary of State one 522 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: of the Americans, who's closest to Vladimir Putin, And he's 523 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: praised Putin probably more than any other world leader. You're 524 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: talking about Rex Tillerson exactly. So don't we already know 525 00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: that he's going to make a strong effort to be 526 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: old closer ties with Putin. Well, so every president has 527 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: done this, from George Bush through Obama now to Trump, 528 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: or tried to do this, I should say, and try 529 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: it and failed. So Donald Trump presents himself as a dealmaker. 530 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: We already know what Putin wants from this deal. He 531 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: wants sanctions lifted, he wants the end of NATO, he 532 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: wants to break up the European Union. So the question 533 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: is what does Donald Trump get out of that? Well, well, Bill, 534 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: he hasn't had exactly you know, warm fuzzy words about NATO. 535 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: I mean, Donald Trump built much of his campaign saying 536 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: that he wasn't a big fan of NATO and that 537 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: the United States shouldn't pay to defend all these countries. 538 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: You know that we're not the world's policeman. So it 539 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: seems to me that Putin and Trump are at least 540 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: aligned on that, and they're also aligned on the collapse 541 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: of the European Union, because Trump has been one of 542 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: the foremost American supporters of the Brexit effort, and he's 543 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: also touted other countries in Europe believing the European Union. 544 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: So it seems like there's a tremendous amount of overlap 545 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: in terms of their views. It does seem that way. 546 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: And so the question is what does Trump get in return? 547 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: What about the notion of joining forces with Russia to 548 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: fight isis that's something that he has talked about a 549 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: lot or did on the campaign trail. Well, that's a 550 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: complete nonsense. Russia doesn't fight iis. Russia bombs the Syrian 551 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: rebels who are trying to stop ASSAD. So Russia is 552 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: bombing children, civilians, women, hospitals. If we're going to join Russia, 553 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,959 Speaker 1: I pray we're not going to get sucked into bombing 554 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: innocent civilians in Syria because that would be the most 555 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: horrific thing I could ever imagine. So why do you 556 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: think Donald Trump has such a soft spot for Russia 557 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: If we know they're not fighting isis? If we know 558 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: that Putin's goals are very similar to others around the 559 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: world who want to diminish American power, how do you 560 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: explain it. I can't. There's no rational reason that I 561 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: can see why he would do that. It doesn't make 562 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: sense to me. Let me ask a simple, sophomoric, possibly 563 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 1: stupid question that I think. I hope our listeners will appreciate. 564 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: What is wrong with having a closer relationship with Russia. 565 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: Couldn't we accomplish things together, as you know, a unified superpower, 566 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: rather than be competitive adversaries. Well, it sounds great if 567 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: it was possible. But Putin is a bad actor. So 568 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: Putin has just invaded He invaded Georgia in two thousand 569 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: and eight, he invaded Ukraine, UM in two thousand fourteen. UM, 570 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: he's at war in Europe. Um. He wants to expand 571 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,479 Speaker 1: his empire. This is the first time since the end 572 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,240 Speaker 1: of the Second World War that borders have been redrawn. 573 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: He's committing war crimes in Syria by bombing women and 574 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: children in hospitals. And so, I mean, everybody wishes that 575 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: he'd be a good actor. If we could have a 576 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: good relationship with a good actor, that would be a 577 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: great thing. But should we allow him to destabilize the 578 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: world and bring death and misery to people, and to 579 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: challenge the safety and security of Europe. I don't think so. 580 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: I think that we know where that has led in 581 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: the past. And unfortunately this man can't be appeased, and 582 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 1: so the only option we really have is to contain him. 583 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: And if what Trump is proposing is to basically give 584 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: him a free ride on all of his bad actions, 585 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: then he will it will encourage him to take more 586 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: of those. It sounds to me like he's an egomaniacal, 587 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: power hungry despot who cares only about himself. Is that 588 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: an accurate characterization? And please don't give him my phone number. Well, 589 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: what he is is he started out being a massive 590 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: kleptocrat where he stole like all the money from the people. 591 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: When the people started grumbling, he started worrying about them 592 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: turning on him and deposing him like that like the 593 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 1: people of Ukraine did of their leader, of their corrupt leader, 594 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 1: and so he then started a war to distract them, 595 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: and when when sanctions were put in place, he then 596 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: started another war in Syria. His main objective is to 597 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: stay in power, because he understands that if he's not 598 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: in power, he'll lose his money, go to jail, and 599 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: perhaps one of his enemies will kill him, and as such, 600 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: staying in power is not such an easy thing to 601 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: do in a place like Russia, because a lot of 602 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: other people that wanted. And so the more as time 603 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: goes on and the more difficult situations arise, the more 604 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: he's got to become repressive in his own country and 605 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: and aggressive um in foreign countries to keep his people distracted. 606 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: Bill critics of yours more foreign policy realists would say 607 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: that your understandable distress over the killing of your former 608 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: lawyer has blinded you to the subtleties of the relationship. 609 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: That there are areas in which our two countries cooperate 610 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: in arms control, in our efforts in Afghanistan, in containing Iran, 611 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: and that if we have a purely adversarial relationship in 612 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: which we're attacking and going after the leader of Russia 613 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: at every turn, it hurts the interests of the United 614 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,720 Speaker 1: States around the world. Is it possible that Putent's Russia 615 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: shouldn't be seen in black and white, but in shades 616 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: of gray. Um? Well, I mean, you can use whatever 617 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: color analogies you want, but you've got a guy who 618 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: will act aggressively using all tools to further his own 619 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: interests and So the question is how do you keep 620 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 1: him from using those tools in a way that's detrimental 621 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: to our interests. And there are places where we have 622 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 1: leverage and we have negotiating positions where he will negotiate 623 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: with us, whether we're nice or whether we're mean. And 624 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: there are places where we don't have leverage, where he 625 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: where he will do whatever he wants. And if you 626 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: mean any person in the military, serious person in the 627 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: military in the West, and discuss Vladimir Putin anyone, they 628 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: will tell you that you need to contain him, that 629 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: that you can't give him any freedom of movement because 630 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: whatever you give him, you'll take that and we can't 631 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: get it back. And I'm long over my emotional distress 632 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: with Ladimir Putin, and I've seen how he operates, and 633 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: I'm just speaking in a calm, sober way that this 634 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: man needs to be contained and how we go about 635 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: interacting with him while we contain him. Sure we can talk, 636 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: Sure we can negotiate, and sure some of those things 637 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: that we discussed can be negotiated. But you can't give 638 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: him the latitude to go and take over countries and 639 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: do his bad actions, because the more latitude you give him, 640 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: the more trouble will be in Does the notion of 641 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: Secretary of State Rex Tillerson give you pause given his 642 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,359 Speaker 1: ties to Russia, given the photographs we've seen of him 643 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 1: sitting next to Vladimir Putin. Well, I wasn't a great 644 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: and of most of his answers in his confirmation hearing, 645 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: he was very um equivocal about sanctions. He was saying, 646 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: you know, I don't I won't commit to keeping them 647 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,560 Speaker 1: in place. The only the only thing he did say, 648 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: which which I liked, was that he was ready to 649 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 1: keep the Magnisky sanctions, which he has no power actually 650 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: to repeal because they're in Act of Congress. But I 651 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: didn't like the answers he he was giving because it 652 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 1: was clear that he was trying to leave himself as 653 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: much room for movement as he could um to take 654 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: get rid of them, if that was what the policy was. 655 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 1: And so yeah, I'm scared that he's going to capitulate 656 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 1: to Russia, which would be a bad thing. Bill. Can 657 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: you just explain briefly what the sanctions do exactly and 658 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,359 Speaker 1: why they're biting the Russians so hard? Well, there's two 659 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: types of sanctions. There are sanctions against high level individuals, 660 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: targeted personal sanctions freezing assets and banning visas. And then 661 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: there are sanctions which are called sectoral sanctions, which are 662 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: sanctions which prevent Western American and European banks from lending 663 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: money to Russian companies. And both sanctions are highly effective 664 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: in their own special way. As I mentioned before, um 665 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,800 Speaker 1: there's a very small number of oligarchs who control almost 666 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,439 Speaker 1: all the economic assets of Russia, and Putin, by the way, 667 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: is a partner with those oligarchs. And so basically, if 668 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: you sanction a small number of people with with asset 669 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: freezes and visa bands, that personally touches Putin, and he 670 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: hates it and it makes his assets less valuable and 671 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: it makes his own personal financial interests hit. Secondly, the 672 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: sectorial sanctions means that Russia can't borrow money, and Russia 673 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 1: needs to borrow money in order to roll over loans, etcetera, etcetera, 674 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: and so as a result of them not being able 675 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 1: to borrow money as a result of oil prices being down, 676 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: they've depleted huge amounts of money from their national reserves 677 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: and from their welfare funds, etcetera. In order to pay 678 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: for things and the combination of these two things absolutely 679 00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: infuriates weekends and upsets putin. Here's another question from one 680 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: of our listeners, and Ambler Pennsylvania. Let's listen. Hello. I 681 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: saw Katie's post about what questions do you have about Russia? 682 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: My question is more about Donald Trump's ties to Russia. 683 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: Now that the transition has occurred in the inauguration has occurred. 684 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: Who will hold Trump's team accountable to find ties between 685 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: the campaign and Russia? And will it still be possible 686 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: now that he has control of those government agencies that 687 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: actually UM do the investigating I have been asking this 688 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: question without stop and have not gotten an answer. I 689 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 1: would really appreciate it if you would take the question. 690 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: Thank you so much so, Bill. Who will hold Donald 691 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: Trump's team accountable, UH, to make sure that the country 692 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: is aware of any ties, either currently or in the 693 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: past between the campaign and Russia. Well, I I think 694 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 1: it's it's a little bit over dramatic as say that 695 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: nobody in Congress UM will do anything about this, When 696 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: when when Obama was in Congress and he didn't and 697 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: he didn't want to do anything tough on Russia. The 698 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,919 Speaker 1: Democrats UM UH, led by a very liberal Democrat from 699 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: from Maryland, Benjamin Carton, you know, acted against Obama in 700 00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: passing the Magnitsky Act, And I know many Republicans in 701 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: Congress um that that if there is a real issue, 702 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: if if if our relationship with Russia is harming our 703 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: national interests, they're not going to go along with that. 704 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,840 Speaker 1: So I don't think it's as dire a situation as 705 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,600 Speaker 1: as as that um that person's question was. But there 706 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: is some definite truth in that if you control the 707 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: leavers of law enforcement and the leavers of power, it's 708 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 1: a lot a lot harder for the people in those 709 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,840 Speaker 1: agencies to act against the interests of power. So hopefully 710 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,360 Speaker 1: the checks and balances, if they're needed, will will be working. 711 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,879 Speaker 1: And then, furthermore, we don't know what's going to happen 712 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,360 Speaker 1: in the next congressional election. Maybe the Republicans won't be 713 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 1: dominating both houses of Congress. Things change very quickly in 714 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: these types of situations, and we don't think that the 715 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 1: world is going to fall apart today. We should note 716 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: that the questions about Trump's team and their connections to 717 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,879 Speaker 1: Russia aren't limited just to Rex Tillerson, who's probably gonna 718 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: be Secretary of State. They also include Michael Flynn, whom 719 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: Trump is appointed to be National Security Advisor, which is 720 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: an enormously powerful position. It's the person in the White 721 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: House who briefs the president on national security every day, 722 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: who mediates disputes between Defend States, CIA and others. And 723 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 1: there were these calls between Flynn and the Russian ambassador 724 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: which are now under investigation. So it seems like he's 725 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,399 Speaker 1: picking the Americans who are just known for their extraordinary 726 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,640 Speaker 1: closeness to Russia. Does that give you any additional concern 727 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: about the direction that Trump is going to take? Well, Um, 728 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: you know, we we We've talked about Tillerson, We've talked 729 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,360 Speaker 1: about Flynn, but what about Maddis, Um, what about Peo? 730 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 1: What about the new Homeland Security secretary? And even with Flynn, 731 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:07,920 Speaker 1: I've heard both sides of the story. I've heard that 732 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 1: he has no illusions about Russia. I've also seen pictures 733 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: of him um at a Russia Today party with Putin. 734 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,720 Speaker 1: So I mean, it's very easy to feel worried and emotional, 735 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: and I know a lot of people do. And I 736 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,239 Speaker 1: I'm looking for every signal and sign which way this 737 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: thing is going to go. But I think it's a 738 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 1: little bit too early to start saying that this is 739 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 1: all a big, you know, takeover by Russia of our administration. 740 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 1: But let's see what they actually do, and they might not. 741 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: It might not be so bad, maybe it will be. 742 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 1: I don't know, but but I think we're sort of 743 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: jumping the gun a little bit until we see what 744 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,919 Speaker 1: the policies will be. Perhaps you can't read the tea 745 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,320 Speaker 1: leaves having said that bill the notion that the Russians 746 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: meddled in US elections? I mean, isn't that something to 747 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 1: be concerned about? Or have I seen the Manchurian candidate 748 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,879 Speaker 1: too many times? Well, there's two things. When is did 749 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: they meddle in the election? The answer is yes, it's 750 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: been pretty clear. The second is is there any quid 751 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 1: pro quo for their meddling in the election? And that 752 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 1: we don't know the answer to what do you mean 753 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: quit pro quo from from the United States? So so 754 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: it does Trump owe them anything if if they did. 755 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 1: But I'm sorry to interrupt, but what about just the 756 00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: whole idea of them effing with our democratic process? I mean, 757 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,919 Speaker 1: shouldn't shouldn't they have to pay something for that? And 758 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,760 Speaker 1: what about the notion of increasing sanctions. And I guess 759 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: didn't Lindsey Graham say this weekend, Brian that Senators would 760 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: vote for some kind of punishment for the Russians meddling 761 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 1: and the elections. Yeah, he was trying to send a 762 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: signal to Trump that the sanctions pressure should go up, 763 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 1: not down. Well, I agree with that, and I think 764 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: that that Russia should be sanctioned, punished with great ferocity. 765 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 1: And and I should point out that that sanctions work. 766 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,360 Speaker 1: People are all saying, well, sanctions. You know, the Russians 767 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: haven't modified their behavior from sanctions. Let me tell you something. 768 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: Putin wakes up every morning praise for sanctions to be lifted, 769 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 1: and goes to bed every night praying for sanctions to 770 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: be lifted. It affects him personally. It affects him profoundly. 771 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: And he doesn't like these sanctions. And they were bad actors. 772 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: They should be punished. And I hope very much that 773 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: this is where our checks and balances come in. If 774 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,279 Speaker 1: there's like some kind of warmth for whatever reason from 775 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: from Trump, that Congress, which is a separate section of 776 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 1: power under the Constitution, will act to severely punish Russia. 777 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: For their bad actions, because there needs to be consequences 778 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: every time they do something bad, so they don't do 779 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,920 Speaker 1: bad things going forward. We talked about the Russians meddling 780 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: in the American presidential election last year. Are you concerned 781 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: about Russian meddling in the French and German elections that 782 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: are happening this year and electing pro Putin candidates as 783 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: a result. I'm concerned, and everybody in Europe is concerned, 784 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,359 Speaker 1: because the Russians have gotten good at this stuff. They're 785 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: good at fake news, they're good at hacking, and they're 786 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,480 Speaker 1: good at manipulating the outcomes and even funding all sorts 787 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: of fringe parties to pull people away from the center. 788 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,440 Speaker 1: And and by the way, it doesn't cost Putin nearly 789 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,720 Speaker 1: cost him nothing to to do this election manipulation compared 790 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,960 Speaker 1: to any kind of military adventures. And so he's out 791 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: there using his technology fast and furious, hoping that he 792 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 1: can upset the political balance all over the world and 793 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: be able to achieve as objectives of breaking up the 794 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: European Union and breaking up NATO. Russia is clearly rising 795 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: right now. What will happen remains to be seen, but 796 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,800 Speaker 1: is Putin here to stay because I know he's enormously 797 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 1: popular in Russia. Right now, what is his approval rating, 798 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: Brian Bill, do either of you know percent? I mean 799 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: that is just unheard of. Thirty years in prison. If 800 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,560 Speaker 1: you say that you're disapproved exactly. If you if you 801 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: get a call from a stranger says do you support 802 00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,839 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin or not? What's your answer going to be? 803 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: I Mean, what I find was strange about this eight 804 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 1: percent is not the eight percent? But who who? Who 805 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 1: are these twelve people who say they don't support poops 806 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 1: there in prison? But do you see him going anywhere? Well, 807 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 1: his objective is to stay in power until the end 808 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: of his life. He has no other plans, and he 809 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 1: really has to use every tool at his disposal to 810 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 1: make sure that that's that happens. And he's very smart 811 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 1: about this stuff. He doesn't he doesn't have to. He's 812 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:35,879 Speaker 1: not constrained by the same things we are. He has 813 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 1: no he has no he has to worry about being elected. 814 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 1: He doesn't have to worry about parliament. He doesn't have 815 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,279 Speaker 1: to worry about the courts, he doesn't have to worry 816 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,280 Speaker 1: about the press, none of the stuff that a normal 817 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,640 Speaker 1: world leader has to worry about, he has to worry about, 818 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,760 Speaker 1: and so he has degrees of freedom. And his biggest 819 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: degree of freedom is that he has no morals. He 820 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: will kill any number of people to stay in power. 821 00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,680 Speaker 1: And so with a man with that, with all the tools, 822 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,239 Speaker 1: with with no morals, and with no constraints, he will 823 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 1: stay in power unless something very dramatic happens. Well, it's 824 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 1: a very scary time. And certainly this has been a 825 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:15,839 Speaker 1: very chilling conversation. So we don't end on such a 826 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:21,280 Speaker 1: terrifying note. I mean, what is your advice for Donald 827 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: Trump and for Americans who are concerned about his growing 828 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: use and abuse of power. And I'm talking about Putin's 829 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: growing use and abuse of power, although some might argue 830 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 1: that Donald Trump is doing the same thing. Well, if 831 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,319 Speaker 1: Donald Trump really wants to be a patriotic American and 832 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,920 Speaker 1: he wants to bring America first, he should use his 833 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:47,440 Speaker 1: strength and his eccentricity and his unconventional approach to completely 834 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,879 Speaker 1: um contain Vladimir Putin. That would be the right thing 835 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 1: to do, That would be the patriotic thing to do, 836 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: and that would be the thing that brings safety to 837 00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 1: American people. Vladimir Putin is much more dangerous adversary than 838 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,960 Speaker 1: isis can ever be. And the right thing to do, 839 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,600 Speaker 1: and the thing that will eventually be done by Trump 840 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:14,040 Speaker 1: or his ultimate successor, will be to surround Putin because 841 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 1: he's the he's the guy whose interests are completely adverse 842 00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 1: to ours, Bill Browder, as I said, it's a it's 843 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: a very very interesting, important conversation. I think Russia has 844 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 1: been mentioned as often as the United States in recent weeks. 845 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: You hear Vladimir Putin's name almost as often as Donald Trump. 846 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: So clearly this is going to be a major story, 847 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,440 Speaker 1: I think in the weeks, months, possibly years to come, 848 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:51,719 Speaker 1: this strange relationship between our two countries. And we really 849 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,719 Speaker 1: appreciate your perspective on it today, and we really recommend 850 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,400 Speaker 1: your book, Red Notice, which reads like a thriller, but 851 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: it is a true story and a pretty remarkable one. 852 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,959 Speaker 1: In fact, they're making a movie out of your book, 853 00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,440 Speaker 1: aren't they, Bill, Um. A movie is in the process, 854 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,759 Speaker 1: and hopefully that will lead to many, many more Americans 855 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: and people all around the world seeing Russia and Vladimir 856 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:19,280 Speaker 1: Putin for um what they really are. Well. Bill Browder, again, 857 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,799 Speaker 1: thanks so much for your time and best of luck 858 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 1: to you, Thank you before we go, which is our 859 00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,799 Speaker 1: version of Steve Harvey's just one more Thing, Brian, You 860 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:39,800 Speaker 1: and I noted during the inaugural ball, Donald Trump's rather 861 00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: strange selection of song for his first dance with Melania 862 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,400 Speaker 1: Trump with the First Lady. Yeah. He picked two songs 863 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,480 Speaker 1: that have really good titles, Frank Sinatra's My Way, Whitney 864 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 1: Houston's I Will Always Love You, which by Dolly Dolly. 865 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,839 Speaker 1: Pardon exactly, but if you listen to the first verse 866 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,960 Speaker 1: of My Way, for example, it sends a kind of 867 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: a different message. Are you asking me to sing it, Brian? 868 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: Give the people what they want, Katie. And now the 869 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:12,759 Speaker 1: end is near, and so I face the final curtain. 870 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:20,720 Speaker 1: My friends all say clear, I'll state my case, of 871 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: which I'm certain there is like a little Judy Garland. 872 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,279 Speaker 1: It's a little bit. I think. I don't know if 873 00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,200 Speaker 1: I would want to start my presidency with the words. 874 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 1: And now the end is near, and so I faced 875 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:36,200 Speaker 1: the final curtain. Would you no, nor uh? If I 876 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,279 Speaker 1: should stay, I would only be in your way. So 877 00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,000 Speaker 1: I'll go, but I know I'll think of you every 878 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: step of the way, which is the first part of 879 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,799 Speaker 1: I will always love you. So I think they need 880 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,520 Speaker 1: maybe a little more diligence on this. If we could 881 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,000 Speaker 1: pick another one for the Trump's, what would we pick. 882 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,160 Speaker 1: I think I would go back to Franklin Roosevelt's favorite 883 00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,719 Speaker 1: campaign song. You know what that was, Katie. Happy days 884 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,920 Speaker 1: are here again? Exactly, Happy days are here again for 885 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,920 Speaker 1: at least half the country. The skies above or clear again, 886 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,040 Speaker 1: so at sing a song of cheer again, Happy days 887 00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,880 Speaker 1: are here again. But nobody wants to hear me sing Yes, Brian, 888 00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,879 Speaker 1: please don't ever do that again. Oh my god, that's 889 00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:22,960 Speaker 1: the scary voice, as always are. Thanks to Gianna Palmer 890 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,080 Speaker 1: for producing the show and Jared O'Connell for engineering and 891 00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,360 Speaker 1: mixing it. Thanks this week to Joe Miller for production 892 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 1: assistance in London. And I have to say, Mark Phillips, 893 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,960 Speaker 1: I love our theme music. I listened to it when 894 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,200 Speaker 1: I shower. Not really, but also in addition to me, uh, 895 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,400 Speaker 1: Mitch Simmel and Brian Goldsmith are are executive producers. And 896 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,840 Speaker 1: remember you can email us at comments at Kirk podcast 897 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,560 Speaker 1: dot com or find me on social media. I'm on 898 00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,840 Speaker 1: it way too much, people. I'm Katie Curic on Twitter 899 00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 1: and Instagram and Katie dot Kuric on Snapchat because I 900 00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,839 Speaker 1: am so hip and jiggy with the youngster, and because 901 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm not hip and jiggy, I'm only on Twitter at 902 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,520 Speaker 1: at goldsmith b. Best of all, you can rate and 903 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,279 Speaker 1: review us on iTunes. Would really appreciate it if you 904 00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,600 Speaker 1: would subscribe to the show as well. That helps more 905 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,799 Speaker 1: listeners to find it and we will talk to you 906 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:24,319 Speaker 1: next time. Thanks so much for listening. By everybody,