1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Just a heads up. This episode mentions domestic abuse. The 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: viral nature of this stuff is tried directly to capital 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: and you can make a lot of money going really viral, 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: posting all kinds of breathless updates about this like very 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: Sad and your trial. There Are No Girls on the Internet. 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: As a production of I Heart Radio and Unboss Creative. 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: I'm Bridget Todd and this is there Are No Girls 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: on the Internet. After Amber Heard published an ed in 9 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: The Washington Post. In it, she wrote, quote I spoke 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: up against sexual violence and faced our culture's wrath that 11 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: has to change. And quote I became a public figure 12 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: representing domestic abuse, and I felt the full force of 13 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: our culture's wrath for women who speak out. And finally, 14 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: quote I had the rare vantage point of seeing in 15 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: real time how institutions protect men accused of abuse. Now, 16 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: in these three statements that did not specifically name anyone 17 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: as her abuser, a jury of five men and two 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: women found that Amber Heard defamed her ex husband, actor 19 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: Johnny Depp. Back Johnny Depp sued the British tabloid of 20 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: the Sun for calling him a wife beater, and he lost. Now, 21 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: the judge in that case ruled that Amber Heard's abuse 22 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: claims were quote substantially true. But unlike that trial, that 23 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: Depth lost in the most recent trial was live streamed 24 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: and disseminated and seemingly endless clips on social media. Outside 25 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: the Virginia courthouse, people waited for hours. Some hardcore Depth 26 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: fanatics even dressed in cosplay of his character Captain Jack 27 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: Sparrow from the movie Pirates of the Caribbean. Now I 28 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: didn't watch the trial, but that doesn't mean I could 29 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: escape it. I learned about the trial and memes and 30 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: TikTok videos that framed Amber Heard as a crazy, lying, 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: deceitful bitch, and the right wing website The Daily Wire 32 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: spent thousands of dollars spreading this exact message around the Internet. 33 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: So does this mean about our digital culture? What does 34 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: it mean for women? What does it mean for survivors? 35 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: I spoke to Ryan Broderick, tech writer and editor of 36 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: Garbage Day, a newsletter about memes and the Internet, about 37 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: the trial, the verdict, and what it all says about 38 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: the Internet. So, you know, tell us about how you 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: came to be somebody who studies and pays attention to 40 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: memes and what they tell us about society. My villain 41 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: origin story I suppose started in college. I was a 42 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: journalism major and I liked the Internet a lot, and 43 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: I didn't understand why no one in my journalism classes 44 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about what was happening on the Internet. 45 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 1: I was reading all these great websites all the time, 46 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: and none of our professors wanted to deal with it. 47 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: And so I guess out of spite, I started to 48 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: pay more and more attention to what I was seeing 49 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: on the Internet. And then when I started to do 50 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: my first jobs and internships, there was a lot of 51 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: stuff happening online that no one was talking about. So 52 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, this will be like my way in. 53 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: And I never really moved past that. I've always just 54 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: been really interested. And now people use the Internet in technology. 55 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a fan of sci fi, so I suppose 56 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: that's kind of a part of that as well. Uh. 57 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: And now I read a newsletter called Garbage Day, which 58 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: is about memes, trends, uh, technology forecasting, stuff like that. 59 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: And I have a podcast called The Content Minds, which 60 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: is me and a friend named Luke Bailey. He's the 61 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 1: head of audience development for the news in the UK 62 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: and we uh basically get in like long protracted fights 63 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: about what's happening on Twitter every week. That's that's my 64 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: pitch for the show. Um, yeah, I know, and uh, 65 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 1: it's it's good. It's a good time to write about 66 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: the Internet and to think about the Internet because I 67 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: think after the Trump era where things got very annoying, 68 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: we're now in this moment of like infinite possibility and 69 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: there's all these really interesting stories happening, whether it's crypto, 70 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: the metaverse, TikTok memes, fandoms that are going feral, it's 71 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: all just really good stuff. And I feel like I've 72 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: been waiting many years for this level of Internet pop 73 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: culture breakthrough. I mean, that's actually a great place to 74 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: start talking about this trial. You know, in a piece 75 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: of our polygon you wrote the trial is set off 76 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: a toxic fandom bomb a major social platform. As major 77 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: social platforms incentivized the worst human behavior possible to drive 78 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: up their engagement metrics, and during depth be heard that 79 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: the defensiveness, ugliness, and outrage cycle of online band communities 80 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: has infected every corner of the web like a virus, 81 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: taking shape of the content that does well on those platforms, 82 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: So tell us you know what you mean by that 83 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: and what, like, how have you seen this trial playing 84 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: out online? Yeah, I mean it's definitely an evolution of 85 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: something I think we saw a lot on spaces like 86 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: Tumbler and read it ten years ago, when fandoms were 87 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: kind of still more niche, you know, the that weird 88 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: I'm really kind of obsessed with that weird period of 89 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: time between let's say, like the Breaking Bad starting and 90 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: the Walking Dad starting and then like the last season 91 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,119 Speaker 1: of Game of Thrones, and in that weird period of time, 92 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: you go from fandoms being still kind of niche nerdy 93 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: things that only kind of pop up are in comic 94 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: cons and things like that too. Essentially the mainstream, like 95 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: the Disney adults, the Harry Potter adults. These people who 96 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: you know, may have been teenagers are in college ten 97 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 1: years ago, and now they're adults and and they're acting 98 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: like adults, but they're also still obsessed with fandoms and 99 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: the and the Internet has evolved beyond these small corners 100 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: on Tumblr and Reddit, so now that this is super 101 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: mainstream everywhere, and I think in a lot of ways, 102 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: the really disgusting, and I think it is disgusting behavior 103 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: that people were engaging in around this trial. Um is 104 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: the manifestation of those fandom spaces just not going away 105 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: and becoming more entrenched. And I think a lot of 106 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: that has to do with the fact that we live 107 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: in a time of deeply consolidated pop culture. You know, 108 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: Disney owns everything, and if stuff that they don't own, 109 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: his own by Netflix, and stuff that they don't own 110 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: his own by Warner Brothers, and that's kind of it. 111 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: And so these companies, I think they feed into this. 112 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: They they sort of the beast, and these fandoms have 113 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: become extremely powerful, extremely engaging, extremely sticky culturally, and uh, 114 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: they don't. They They're just full of people who act 115 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: outrageous all the time and or and or and in 116 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: my opinion, getting worse because you know, you may have 117 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: seen like fandom blogs fighting with each other as teenagers 118 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: on Tumbler ten years ago, but now these are like 119 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: full grown adults, spending sometimes like thirty five thousand dollars. 120 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: I read one woman paid that much to go to 121 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: the trial and like bring al pacas so the Johnny 122 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: Depp could pet her alpacas in case he was feeling depressed. 123 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: Like this is this is absurd behavior, um, and no 124 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: one seems to be thinking it's absurd, which is even 125 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: crazier to me. One of the things is that I 126 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: want to talk specifically about the Daily Wire and like 127 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: what what this trial might mean for like right wing types, 128 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: But I don't want to give the impression that it's 129 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: all you know, I don't know, I guess. I when 130 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: I first heard about this case, I was like, what's 131 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: clearly like right wing types, men's rights in cells. But 132 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,559 Speaker 1: it's also like this mixed bag of of I guess, 133 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: like fandom types. Can you give us a little breakdown 134 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: of who you see the major players as? Yeah, So 135 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: I've tried to sketch up this landscape, and unfortunately I 136 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: have to kind of make like these vague um summaries. 137 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: You know, I have to kind of because you're you're 138 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: talking about blobs of culture. UM. So think of it 139 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: like this. I would say a large chunk of the 140 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: people who were pro Johnny Depp are Disney adults, people 141 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: who genuinely miss Johnny Depp. Uh. They have like a 142 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: nostalgic attachment to him, whether it's the Pirates of the 143 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: Caribbean franchise, or some other thing that he's a part of, 144 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: and they want him back and they feel like he 145 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: shouldn't have been removed from pop culture. You also have 146 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: release the Snyder cut people, the the these like fans 147 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: of the d C Entertainment universe who believe that Amber Herds, 148 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: like interpersonal drama with Johnny Depp, to put it very lightly, 149 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: was impacting their ability to see new superhero movies. And 150 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: a lot of those guy guys are the same guys 151 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: who make YouTube videos about Star Wars characters they don't 152 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: like who just had so happened to be women or 153 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: people of color. And they're the same guys who are 154 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: probably teenagers during the game or game era. So I 155 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: sort of see that is like the same man, the 156 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: same like horrible Reddit YouTube man. You also have men's 157 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: rights activists who see this trial as a proxy battle 158 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,239 Speaker 1: for me too. They believe that the me too movement 159 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: went too far, even though like nothing happened to any 160 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: of the powerful men really, but they believe it it 161 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: went too far, and now this is a way to 162 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: pull back and and fix things so that like you know, 163 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: powerful men can continue being ship heads. You do have 164 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: right wingers, though they were pretty late to the trial. 165 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: And we'll talk about the Daily Wire in a second, 166 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: but they really actually struggled to insert themselves into this 167 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: because I don't think this was like really their battlefield. Um. 168 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: You also have and this is very interesting because Johnny 169 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: Depp was removed from their Fantastic Beasts franchise, which is 170 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: a prequel series to Harry Potter. You have Harry Potter 171 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: adults who believe that him being removed from the franchise 172 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: screwed up the success of that franchise. And because you 173 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:11,719 Speaker 1: have Harry Potter adults, because J. K. Rowling is a 174 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: vicious anti trans activist, you have turfs as well. You 175 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: have trans exclusively radical feminist. So it's this really bizarre 176 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: blob of some of the worst obsessive people on the 177 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 1: Internet who have all rallied around this one trial because 178 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: they've decided this is the trial that will also dictate 179 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: their weird obsession and and and its relevancy in popular culture. Wow. Yeah, 180 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: I mean talking about the Harry Potter stands and like 181 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: Turf types, like way to be feminist, smearing a woman 182 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 1: who has survived her of domestic violence like that. I 183 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: guess that really shows how deep, they're they're feminist, their 184 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: feminist ideology goes yeah. I I interviewed this this she's 185 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: she's unbelievable. Her name is Amanda Brandon, I interr reader 186 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: for my Polygon piece. She used to work at Tumbler 187 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: now she does like trends research and and I couldn't 188 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: use this quote because it was just like it was 189 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: so much to put it in the piece. But essentially 190 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: she she was sort of arguing that the same women 191 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: who were or young girls who were bullying other women 192 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,079 Speaker 1: and girls on Tumbler fifteen years ago are now the 193 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: ones like threatening to murder Amber heard on TikTok as 194 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: as like full grown adults. And it's that same toxic 195 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: strain of fandom and like a very particular fan fiction 196 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: archetype of like loving the the really toxic character that 197 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: like I can fix him tight, the raylos, the women 198 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: who believe that like Ray should have ended up with 199 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: Kylo reyn in Star Wars, Like this very specific kind 200 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: of thing seems to be happening around a real person, 201 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: and they don't seem to understand that, Like Johnny Depp 202 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: isn't any of his characters, He's like, uh, from all 203 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: accounts a very bad person. Um. I hope that it's 204 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: not defamatory to say I believe he's a bad person. Um. 205 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: And these a lot of it is is not right wingers, 206 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: it's not politically motivated. It's like women who are like 207 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: getting tattoos of his lawyer. And then oh my god, 208 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: did you see that they were writing erotic fan fiction 209 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: about Depth hooking up with his lawyer, Like just insane nonsense, 210 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: like craziness. Like I would say, go outside, but they 211 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: are going outside. They're going to the trial, which is 212 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: so much worse, like stay inside, babe. I don't know, 213 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: it's just it's awful. Yeah, I mean, I I know 214 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: exactly that type. But I think a lot of Johnny 215 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: Depp's uh, the different characters that he's portrayed, really feeds 216 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: into it that, Like, you know, you look at like 217 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: Edward scissor Hand like, oh, I'm like a like a 218 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: really quiet, sweet soul who's very innocent, or like I'm 219 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: like a really charming pirate that you just want to 220 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: hang out with. I think that like a lot of 221 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 1: people are projecting grown adults are projecting a lot onto 222 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: these characters that you know, they're fictional, they're not like 223 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: Johnny Depp is not actually a pirate. It he's not 224 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: actually this like sensitive guy with scissors for hands. Yeah, 225 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: he's not a pirate. He's not He is not Hunter S. Thompson. 226 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: He is just like a man who seems to have 227 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: a really bad drug and alcohol problem and like as 228 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 1: a series of extremely toxic relationships with other people. So like, yeah, 229 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: he's not like your small being that you can yes fix, 230 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: you know exactly. And I think you bring up fandom, 231 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: and I think that really explains this phenomenon with the 232 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: trial that I don't know that I've ever really seen before, 233 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: which is the way that it has been memed and 234 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: turned into these like fan videos, particularly on TikTok. You know, 235 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: I am someone who I'm not too proud to admit that, 236 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: like I spent a lot of time hyper analyzing famous 237 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: people that I had crushes on to be like, oh 238 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: he there was a long and glance here, So that 239 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: means this. And I see the way that these videos 240 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: have really flooded internet spaces where they have the tinge 241 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: of fan videos. Have you seen this? Yeah? No. In fact, 242 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: my my coach Luke Bailey on our podcast pointed out 243 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: that it's it's essentially the same behavior that was behind 244 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: like the Larry shipping from one direction urs the idea 245 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: that like Liam and Harry were secretly a couple and 246 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: you could prove it by hyper analyzing their hands touching 247 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: each other during a press conference. It's the same stuff 248 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: we see with bts as well, you know, the it's 249 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: it's this idea and in my opinion, it also ties 250 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: in with our our obsession with true crime at the moment. 251 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: It's this idea that there's so much media being produced. 252 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: There's so many videos and images and and takes and 253 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: and and spins on a on a thing that I 254 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,719 Speaker 1: think as human beings, we assume that all of our 255 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: answers can be can be found there. It's the same 256 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: thing we start the Gabby Petita disappearance. It's the same 257 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: thing we see with like all of these TikTok trends, 258 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: where it's like it's your brain almost goes like, Okay, 259 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: if if there's a live stream of the trial and 260 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: there's so many ways to watch the trial, I must 261 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: be able to figure out exactly what's going on. Because 262 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: if I'm not able to do that, that's almost like 263 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: it's like psychologically upsetting the idea that like you could 264 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: be lied to by what you're seeing with your own eyes. 265 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: And I think, if I want to give a benefit 266 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 1: of the doubt to anyone involved with making some of 267 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 1: this like horrible content on TikTok, I think that's what's 268 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 1: going on, is this idea, like, oh, of course I 269 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: could figure out if he's lying or not, or she's lying, 270 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: because like if I couldn't, then I can't trust anything 271 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: that I see. You know, Um, maybe that's what's happening. Yeah, 272 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: I think that's right. And then I think, like with Discovery, 273 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: there's just so much content, so many videos, so many 274 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: text messages, that it's I think that we I think 275 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: it really demonstrates that we've created an Internet landscape that 276 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: is really that incentivizes, I guess, conspiratorial thinking that like 277 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: there must be some way to put this all together, 278 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: to prove that she is like a gone Girl style 279 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: lying bitch who has been for years, you know, coalescing 280 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: to take this man down, even though that seems so outlandish. 281 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: I almost believe that our Internet spaces are incentivize things 282 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: that are the more outlandish they are, the more like 283 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: difficult to believe they are more traction they'll get Yeah, 284 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: I think that's true. And I'm as as someone who 285 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: stares at this stuff all day long. I want to 286 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: really be really clear, like I'm not someone who believes 287 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: that Internet users are inherently bad or inherently act crazy. 288 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: I think they respond to incentives, and they respond to 289 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: like different user experience choices, and I think right now 290 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: on the Internet, there is not a single social network 291 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: that does not sort of incentivize acting like a complete maniac. 292 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: I think they all give you like a weird point 293 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: system that rewards the worst behavior imaginable, whether that's through 294 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: retweets or likes or up votes or your audio trending 295 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: or whatever it is. And so when it comes to 296 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: a moment like this trial, there's not a place you 297 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: can go on the Internet that's not going to give 298 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: you more points for being more insane. And that's just 299 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: a really sad thing. I wonder what discord conversations have 300 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: been like, because that's a place where maybe you're not 301 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: incentivized to be awful, although maybe you are. I don't know. 302 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: I just think that, like, it's it's unfortunate that the 303 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: majority of the people who are falling this trial. We're 304 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: following it through TikTok and YouTube, which our platforms that 305 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: will reward you for being more extreme and more annoying 306 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: than the next person, let's say quick breaks at our back. 307 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: On platforms like TikTok and YouTube, content creators have built 308 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: entire platforms hyper analyzing the trial, and it really reminds 309 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: me of the days of tabloid court TV, I mean O. J. 310 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: Simpson trial, were so called body language experts try to 311 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: glean whether or not someone is lying or telling the 312 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: truth based on the way they use their hands or 313 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: purse their lips in videos of the trial. And even 314 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: though it's kind of a bunk pseudoscience, claims about body 315 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: language to depict Amber heard as a liar have flooded 316 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: the internet discourse about trial on YouTube, you're rewarded and 317 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: you can kind of be like celebritized. Like I've seen 318 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: all of these like body language experts scare quotes around that, 319 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 1: or like legal experts or whatever, really making platforms off 320 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: of like like commenting on this trial in a way 321 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: that I'm not sure that's healthy for our our our 322 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: understanding of what's happening. I'm not sure it's like a 323 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: healthier Internet ecosystem when that is so so incentivized to 324 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: the point where you can really make a name from it. Yeah, 325 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: I mean, like, let's be clear, like there's no such 326 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 1: thing as a body language expert. Like there's just not 327 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: like like there's like, like our artificial intelligence stuff would 328 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: be much better if we could give it information from 329 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: from body language experts. They don't exist. It's not a 330 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: thing like there's really and yet and yet there is 331 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: this desire to have that because you know, it's like 332 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: if someone's on camera, like you want to be able 333 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 1: to get inside their head and know what they're thinking. 334 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: But it's not possible. It's just not like and also 335 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: I mean I don't want to get to like serious, 336 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: but like a trial mutized person, an abused person, an 337 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: allegedly abused person is probably not going to act in 338 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: public the way you think they act or think they 339 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: should act. This is actually very similar to the couch 340 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: guys stuff on TikTok. So if you don't know, if 341 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: your listeners don't know, a girl walks into surprise for boyfriend. 342 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: The boyfriend doesn't react positively or negatively. He just sort 343 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: of looks stunned, there's a girl on the couch next 344 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: to him. People start making conspiracy theories that he was 345 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: cheating and he got caught cheating. None of it was 346 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: seems to be real. But I think what's like a 347 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: really interesting dynamic sometimes with TikTok in particular, is that 348 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: when like video footage hits TikTok of real life that 349 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: doesn't look like the cinematic version that we're used to, 350 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: people assume it's not real. But that's like saying like, oh, 351 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: I can't recognize real life because it doesn't look like 352 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: a movie. And kids on TikTok are are reacting really 353 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: aggressively what that happens because it makes them uncomfortable, and 354 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: I think that was a part of this as well, 355 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,239 Speaker 1: another dimension to this trial. Oh my gosh. I mean, 356 00:18:58,280 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too far off base, but 357 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: it We did an episode about why so many like 358 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: fabricated videos claiming to be from Ukraine during the invasion. 359 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: We're able to like people believe them, and part of 360 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: it is that we we have something going on where 361 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: when we expect things to look cinematic, and so people 362 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: were able to take things from movies or video games 363 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: or cartoons and be like, oh, this is what's happening 364 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: in Ukraine, and people believed it because of our because 365 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: of our need to have things be so cinematic. And 366 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: I think we're I think we're losing our ability to 367 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: tell when something is real or something it's kind of 368 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: bullshit because of it. I think it's worse. I think 369 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: we prefer the bullshit because it's more comfortable. Like if 370 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: you if you're faced with like raw life in a video, 371 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: it's actually pretty uncomfortable. It's like it's like, like, you know, 372 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: the Ukraine stuff is disturbing because it doesn't look like 373 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: a movie. There's no like action here are running through 374 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: the crowd like saving people. It's like it's awful. It's weird. 375 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: If you're watching it like essentially a trial about defamation 376 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: regarding a domestic violence allegations, it's not gonna look like, 377 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: you know, Mr Smith goes to Washington. It's gonna look 378 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: like a really sad, weird disolusion of an extremely toxic relationship. 379 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: And it's not gonna look good. It's not gonna be funny, 380 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,640 Speaker 1: and it's probably not going to be comfortable to watch 381 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: it with the we the we storm song, which is like, God, 382 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: why why did that song become the song of this trial. 383 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: It's bizarre to me because it didn't hurt, didn't physically 384 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: hurt me. I have never seen a trial be memed 385 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: the way that this trial was. You know that catchy 386 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: little song you hear when you log onto a Nintendo 387 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: We Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Well. If 388 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: you're thinking that no one would ever use such a cheery, 389 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: upbeat song on a video from a trial about something 390 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: as serious as domestic violence, you would be wrong. Here's 391 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: another example. A sneaky sounding song from the children's show 392 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: The Backyard Against is often used on TikTok to illustrate 393 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: someone being duplicitous or trying to get a way with something. 394 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: After Herd's lawyer held up a makeup palette from the 395 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: cosmetics brand Melanni after testifying that Amber used the makeup 396 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: to cover bruises that she says that Johnny Depp gave 397 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: her the Milanni brand, used video from the trial to 398 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: create a cheeky TikTok scored to the Backyard Again song, 399 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: pointing out that the specific product that her lawyer held 400 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: up had not been released until after Amber heard and 401 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: Johnny Depp broke up. Now, her lawyer never actually claimed 402 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: that Amber Heard specifically used that Milanni product, just that 403 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: she used makeup, but the video pretty clearly implies that 404 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: they've caught Amber Heard in a cosmetics bace lie proving 405 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: her guilt allah the climactic scene from the film Legally Blonde. Now, 406 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: it's clear to me why a brand would want to 407 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: get in on this. According to BuzzFeed, that one piece 408 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: of content is Milanni Cosmetics is most watched TikTok ever, 409 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: with five million views. Now prior to this, none of 410 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: their videos has ever broke five thousand views. But it's 411 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: pretty distasteful for a makeup brand to benefit from weighing 412 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: in on a rial about domestic violence using a cute 413 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: see meme on TikTok. And because the jury in this 414 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: trial was not sequestered, it's entirely possible that jurors also 415 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: watched all of this play out too. It is so weird, 416 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: like I remember that thing where um it? During the trial, 417 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: Amber Heard said that she used this this makeup to 418 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: cover her bruises, and her lawyer held up this makeup 419 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: palette Milani and then on TikTok Milani made this like 420 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: cutesie response video being like, oh, it didn't come out 421 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: until this year, like here's our and I think it's this. 422 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: I think it's two things. I think it's one exactly 423 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: like you said, like people people want a trial that 424 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: regarding abuse to look like a movie where someone's going 425 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: to catch somebody in a lie and be like a ha, 426 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: and like they're gonna break down and admit that they 427 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: were wrong. And I think that, you know, there would 428 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: be a time where a big brand getting into the 429 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: conversation about a trial regarding domestic violence, a very serious thing, 430 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: making a cute see little meme on tick talk using 431 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: the Backyard Agin song you know as the sound that 432 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 1: I found that to be so distasteful and I, like 433 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: I said, I just have never seen a trial where 434 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: people and brands and stuff commented on it like the 435 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: like the way that that should be commented on by 436 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: the brand if the brand really wants to get into 437 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: it is by like a turth public statement, not a 438 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: cutely little meme TikTok video. I just found that so distasteful. 439 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you you you bring up a really good 440 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 1: point and this is like a thing that we're currently 441 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: in the middle of and I'm curious how it will end. 442 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: I assume. I assume a brand will go uh. I 443 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: assume a brand will go too far and this will stop. 444 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: But as of right now, brands are sort of in 445 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: this post Trump internet era trying to figure out how 446 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: they can insert themselves into online conversations. And you know, 447 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: for the last like five years, it's actually been pretty 448 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: unsafe for a brand to exist on the Internet because 449 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: everything is political. They don't want to get involved, they 450 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: don't want to like get wrapped up in some polarizing thing. 451 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: But now certain brands are being actually, we can be 452 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: totally nuts on the Internet and people will like it. 453 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: And I you know, I'm waiting for the brand that 454 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: goes too far. I'm waiting for the brand that like, 455 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, like makes a meme about a school 456 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: shooting or something like. I'm waiting for the brand that 457 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,479 Speaker 1: just like completely goes all the way and then everyone's like, Okay, 458 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: we can't, we can't do this anymore. Time to pull back, Yeah, exactly. Um, 459 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 1: And I don't know when that's going to happen, but 460 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 1: I think we're I think we're getting close. I I'm 461 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: ready for it to sap more after a quick break, 462 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. So I didn't pay 463 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: very close attention to the trial when it was happening, 464 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: and I think I see now that part of the 465 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: reason why that is is because I have been swayed 466 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: by a deliberate campaign to create doubt and fog, you know, 467 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 1: people who weren't really paying super close attention, but who 468 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: were seeing lots of content on social media about the trial. 469 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: And I also really didn't see a lot of people 470 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: speaking up in support of herd. I just kept seeing 471 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: these snippets of the trial that painted amber Heard in 472 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: this really negative light. So I think I honestly just 473 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: assumed that this must be some sort of complicated situation 474 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: where the truth is somewhere in the middle. But if 475 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: you look at reporting from people like journalist Michael Hobbs, 476 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: who's been chronicling the trial, you can check out some 477 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: of his reporting in the show description Amber Heard told 478 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: a plausible evidence backstory of abuse. So why did so 479 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: many of us like me just kind of stay out 480 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: of it. I have to say, like I feel a 481 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 1: little bit like guilty slash weird. I didn't really engage 482 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: on this trial until pretty recently. And I think part 483 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: of it was that, like probably, like a lot of people, 484 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 1: I'm kind of what you might describe as like a 485 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: low information person. I didn't follow the trial. I don't 486 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: really love spending time digging into like abuse and things 487 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,439 Speaker 1: like that, Like it's just not doesn't feel good or 488 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: safe for me. And I feel like part of it 489 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: is I have to admit that because of all the 490 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: information I was absorbing on TikTok and Twitter and YouTube, 491 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: despite the fact that I was not interested in this trial, 492 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: not following it at all, Uh, it made it seem 493 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: as though, like, oh, like it's a he said she said, 494 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: like maybe they were abusive toward each other. It's so murky, 495 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: like just stay out of it. And I now kind 496 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: of realized like I had been sort of taken by 497 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: a full like a like a campaign to make me 498 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: think that to make me think like, oh, they're either 499 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: a amber heard must be a psycho lying bit or 500 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: be the story must be that like it's quote mutual abuse, 501 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 1: say both down awful. I don't know, and I guess 502 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: I feel a little bit. It's hard. It's hard to 503 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: realize the role that I personally played in carrying water 504 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: for people who were interested in misrepresenting what was happening 505 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: in this trial. Yeah, I mean, it's not your fault. 506 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: It's it's not your fault. It's in the best interests 507 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: of everyone involved to make you think that it's it's 508 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: in the best interest of of platforms like Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, 509 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: TikTok to make this into a larger narrative, to make 510 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: this into a proxy fight. And it's in the best 511 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: interests for all those people who are making that content 512 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: to do that, because they're making lots and lots and 513 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: lots of stupid money on it like that, And that's 514 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 1: like the really sad thing is that, like the viral 515 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: nature of this stuff is tried directly to capital and 516 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: you can make a lot of money going really viral, 517 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: posting all kinds of breathless updates about this like very 518 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: sad and weird trial. Which I think is the difference 519 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: between this and the O. J. Simpson trial, which is 520 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: that you have the role now of the individual creators 521 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: who were able to jump on the bandwagon in a 522 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: way that was not as easy to do in a 523 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: pre internet media landscape. Vice News reported that the Daily Wire, 524 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: the conservative outlet founded by Ben Shapiro, spent between thirty 525 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 1: five thousand and forty seven thou dollars on Facebook and 526 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: Instagram ads promoting art close about the trial, eliciting some 527 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: four million impressions. According to Media Matters, these posts from 528 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: the Daily Wire pages account for nearly forty seven percent 529 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 1: of posts about the trial from right leading pages and 530 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: nearly eight percent of related posts from all news and 531 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: politics pages. The content they promoted showed a clear bias 532 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: against her, some of which contained outright inaccurate information about 533 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: the trial. Immediately following the verdict, Kyle Rittenhouse, who you 534 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: might remember became kind of a right wing celebrity after 535 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: traveling to Kenosha, Wisconsin with a gun in shooting and 536 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: killing two protesters and was later acquitted, has already signaled 537 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: that the verdict inspired him to pursue defamation charges against 538 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: media who covered his case. I asked Ryan why a 539 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: right wing news site like The Daily Wire would be 540 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: invested in spreading anti Amber heard messaging. What's going on there? 541 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: What do you think is happening? It's so weird because 542 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: like okay, so you hear that and you're like, okay, 543 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: we and a lot of people were like, we got it, 544 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: we we figured it out. This is all fake. No 545 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: would think this, and it's a right wing astroturfing campaign 546 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: to make people into pro Johnny Depth supporters. And it's like, no, 547 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: I went through the metrics. No one's reading the stuff 548 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: that the Daily Wires do it there then none of 549 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: the articles they're paying to promote are being read by anybody, 550 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: which makes me which is like even weirder to be, 551 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: which is like they're so far behind the like the 552 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: Disney Ladies doing like Jack Sparrow cause play in front 553 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: of the courthouse. This is this is like what what 554 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: what it seems to be what they're doing. I guess 555 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: they have some kind of advertising budget they've got to spend. 556 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: Uh you know, maybe it's the because of the dark 557 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: money they're getting from like you know, Republican benefactors or 558 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: whatever it is. They got to spend their money. So 559 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: they're spending the money. And I think what they're what 560 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: they're trying to do with it is like packaging in 561 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: a way, so that I mean, actually we we we 562 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: sort of have the answer now, which is that like 563 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: the day after the trial, Kyle Rittenhouse goes on Twitter 564 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: and he's like, I'm thinking about suing Cenna or whoever 565 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: now for defamation. And I think that's why the Daily 566 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: Wire and sort of themselves into this is because they 567 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: want to make it really clear to other right wing 568 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: like activists and um, you know, media companies that they 569 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: can start to weaponize defamation trials in the same way. 570 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: And that's why they were so like engaged and invested 571 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: in this trial. Yeah, I think that's right. I mean 572 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time trying to figure out, 573 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: like what does this mean, like why would they be invested? 574 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: But I do think that's part of it, And I 575 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: wonder do you think that it's part of it? Could 576 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: also be like I don't know, I went to the 577 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: Daily Wire website just to see like what's going on, 578 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: and the first thing I got before even going in 579 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: was like a pop up that says, what is a 580 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: woman like? Click here to find more. But I wonder 581 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: if they're like trying to seize on this like high 582 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: engagement thing to get more people align. Yeah, I don't know, 583 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: like come for the you know, cultural thing that everybody 584 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: is talking about. Stay for the like anti trans anti 585 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: black nonsense. I think that's definitely true. I mean, their 586 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: whole business model, their whole editorial model is like taking 587 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: a thing, is like taking a thing that everyone's talking 588 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: about and inserting themselves into it, hijacking it and making 589 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: it about them. They're and they're they're they're fairly good 590 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: at it. You just described like mead drunk out of 591 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: wedding exactly. They're just like they're like the worst person 592 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: you've ever met at a party. I'm not saying you are, 593 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: I'm saying uh, And they, you know not they they're 594 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: not gonna ask you any questions about yourself. They just 595 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about whatever they want to talk about, 596 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: over and over again. But um, they did this with 597 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: their Freedom Convoy a couple of months ago, where it 598 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: was happening in Canada and the Daily Wire was largely 599 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: responsible for it to start going viral in America on Facebook. 600 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: And so I think that they figured that if they 601 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: can find these these movements early enough, they can like 602 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: turn up the volume for conservatives and then like kick 603 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: it up all the way to you know, Fox News 604 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: or whatever. And I think that's what they tried to 605 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: do with this, But I think that it was too 606 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: inherently complicated, uh, like from the fandom perspectives for them 607 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: to really like monopolize on it. What do you think 608 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: it says about our digital system that, you know, we 609 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: have this like kind of bogus quote new site that 610 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: is really more of like a content platform that just 611 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: has a lot of like click baity material. Like what 612 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: do you think of the fact that like that is 613 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: seen as a viable whether or it was viable for 614 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: them because it seems like nobody was really like reading 615 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: that content, but like the fact that that is seen 616 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: as a strategy, what do you think it says about 617 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: our digital ecosystem? Yeah, so this is really fascinating. Um Like, 618 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: and I always used like the Trump era as as 619 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: sort of a way to define this new one because 620 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: we haven't figured out like what we're really in yet. 621 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: But this did start to happen during the Trump ere 622 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: which is that like all of American culture kind of 623 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: flowed through Trump, like Trump's tweets, which was extremely annoying 624 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 1: and like whatever what happened during the day was set 625 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: by his Twitter account. Um then that went away, But 626 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: the urge to have like a thing that everyone in 627 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: America all fights about all day has stuck, and so 628 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: try ending topics now, at least in America and then 629 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: a few other countries. I've seen this too, but particularly 630 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: in America are training topics aren't really trending topics. They're 631 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: more like capture the flag. So let's say the the 632 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: trial we're talking of the depth heard trial, and it's trending, 633 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: every single community on the Internet is going to try 634 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: to insert themselves into that trending topic. Not because they 635 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: particularly care about the trial. Maybe they do, but I'm 636 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: gonna guess that overwhelmingly what they really care about is 637 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: attention for their particular cause, their particular advocacy, their particular community. 638 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: And you see this a lot on like every like 639 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: every side of the political spectrum, like, for instance, like um, 640 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: I saw a bunch of people immediately after the Vivaldi 641 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: shooting being like, conservatives, uh, won't let women have abortions, 642 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: but they will force their children to go to school, 643 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: and then they won't protect them when they get to school. 644 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,479 Speaker 1: You know, I'm paraphrasing, And it's like, oh, but like 645 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: the abortion debate is is one debate and the school 646 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: streeting debate is another debate. But immediately progressive actors are like, know, 647 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: these are the same debate, and it's like, but they're 648 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: they're they're not, They're really not, I mean other than 649 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: the debate of hating Republicans, which I can get behind, 650 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: you know, like that's how like our brains work now. 651 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: So it's it's like, oh, it's the death Heard trial, 652 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: but it's not just the death Heard trial. It's also 653 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: the entire meat to movement. It's also the way defamation works. 654 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: It's also Kyle Rittenhouse now wants to sue the Washington Post. 655 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,919 Speaker 1: It's like all of this stuff has to fit the 656 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: trending thing, and the Republicans are much better at it 657 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: than than the Democrats. You have Christopher Rufo at the 658 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: Manhattan Institute. He's the grand architect of the anti critical 659 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 1: race theory movement that's like spreading it through small towns 660 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: in America right now. And he's kind of created the 661 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: playbook of like whatever's turning that day, no matter what 662 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: it is, no matter how stupid it is. Like literally, 663 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: right now, while we're talking, a bunch Republicans are pissing 664 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,479 Speaker 1: their pants over a thing that Pizza Hut is doing, 665 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,439 Speaker 1: and they're not pointing at Pizza Hut and being like 666 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: this is the sign of all wokeness and it's got 667 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 1: to go. And they're really good at it. They're really 668 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: good at just like finding anything on Twitter and raging 669 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: about it, oh day all week. Progressives, liberals, leftist, they're 670 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: not so good at it. And I think it's very 671 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: disorienting for people. And it's supposed to be You're supposed 672 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: to feel the way you felt, which is like, I 673 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: don't know what's going on. I'm just seeing everyone yelling 674 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: about it. There must be a reason because they, because 675 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: like conservatives in particular, know that none of us have 676 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: enough time to dig to the bottom of the trash 677 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: heap and figure out that there's nothing there. There's nothing 678 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: to talk about. It's just it's it's nonsense. But if 679 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: they spew enough nonsense, they can distract is long enough 680 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: to take aware of voting rights. That's that seems to 681 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,359 Speaker 1: be the entire game plan. Oh that's I mean, you've 682 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 1: really said it, and I think that, like, that's exactly 683 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: how I felt that. It was just like seems like 684 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of nonsense. I don't have time to get involved. 685 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: I don't have time to have a take. I don't 686 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: have time to do any investigation and it's going to 687 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 1: tune it out. And yeah, I mean, I think it's 688 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: like one of the results of the of our current 689 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: internet landscape is that like it's so hard to just 690 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: have a thoughtful conversation about the thing. Everything is a 691 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: proxy war. Like we're no longer able to just have 692 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: a thoughtful subsidence of conversation about abortion rights or whatever, 693 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: because it's like we're talking about eighteen different things, and 694 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: it's like I can understand why people are just like, Nope, 695 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: I'm checking out. I'm not going to follow it. It's 696 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,879 Speaker 1: too much. Uh. And meanwhile, we're all just so like 697 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: heated and distracted that we're just not really able to 698 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 1: to zero in on what it's actually substitutively happening. Yeah, 699 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: and and and what's even like more insidious is that, like, 700 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: for the most part, mainstream media disregards anything that's happening 701 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,439 Speaker 1: in the celebrity sphere as frivolous because it's typically seen 702 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,720 Speaker 1: something that's either written about by women, read by women, 703 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 1: cared about the way by women. You see this reaction 704 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: with Kim Kardashian stuff. She's the most famous woman on earth, 705 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 1: She's like the Maryland role of our time. And yet 706 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: we don't take her, you know, largely, she's relegated to 707 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: the celebrity pages. And so what's crazy, and like you've 708 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: been driving me crazy watching this is that like this 709 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: is one of the most like cataclysmic defamation precedents that's 710 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: ever happening in American history. Like this woman was sued 711 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: over three sentences in an op ed in the in 712 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: the Washington Post, and and and no serious journals for 713 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: the Capital of j is freaking out about that. That 714 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: this is a massive blow to press freedom in America 715 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: because now any man powerful enough to hire a legal 716 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: team and set up a kangaroo court with a livestream 717 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 1: somewhere can bully anyway to the fact that Kyle Rittenhouse 718 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: immediately was like, yeah, I'm gonna do everybody. And and 719 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,439 Speaker 1: because this is about two celebrities, and this is about 720 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 1: like a crazy woman and like her actor husband or whatever, 721 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: her ex husband, Like, no one's taking it seriously. And 722 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: I think the conservatives know that really well. They know 723 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: that they can insert whatever they want because like you know, 724 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: the serious man men on CNN aren't gonna like talk 725 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: about this with the gravity that are acquires, which is 726 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: which is also you know, as I said, very insidious, 727 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: and it's very sad because this is scary. This is 728 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,080 Speaker 1: like a scary thing. Yeah, And I think you really 729 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: named something that I don't think i've I've had language 730 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: to talk about, which is that when you have people 731 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: who are flooding the space, whether it's you know, right 732 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: wing journalists or like Disney adults on TikTok, and there's 733 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 1: not like substitutive pushback or like bunking, it's just yeah, 734 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 1: it's so hard to like like basically it's like we're 735 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 1: playing catch up. I guess, like the truth and the 736 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: reality of what's happening is playing catchup, and it's so 737 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: much harder when you have so many people who have 738 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: been like really effectively changing the conversation for a long time. Yeah, 739 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 1: and like these people don't care if they're if they're wrong, 740 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: like like they don't really care if they even understand 741 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: what the trials about, Like they don't, Like I think 742 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: there's this knee jerk response from a lot of other 743 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: people where they're like, okay, like if we can just 744 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 1: like get the facts out, everyone can agree like they 745 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: used to in the nineties, and it's like they didn't 746 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: you just couldn't hear them. Now you can hear them, 747 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: and unfortunately, some of them can be louder than you. 748 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: And so there's like we're in this really weird landscape 749 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: where it's like we don't have the illusion of cultural 750 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: consensus that we had twenty or thirty years ago. We 751 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: probably never did, I mean, like to find a grandparent 752 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: and asked them how they feel about like a particular 753 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,880 Speaker 1: news event from thirty sears ago. They're probably have a 754 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: very different take than somebody else. But now it's all 755 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: happened at the same time, and certain communities, certain political 756 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,439 Speaker 1: movements are better at playing with that chaos, I think, 757 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: than others, and the rest of us just have to 758 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: suffer because it's super annoying and very confusing. On Wednesday, 759 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,439 Speaker 1: the jury and the trial found that heard to Fame 760 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: Johnny Depp in that Washington Post piece from in which 761 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,879 Speaker 1: she called herself a public figure representing domestic abuse depth 762 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: was awarded more than ten million dollars in damages. You know, 763 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier sort of how big of a precedent 764 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: this set and it's very scary, you know, given that 765 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,839 Speaker 1: we saw the verdict just I guess was that yesterday. Yeah, 766 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: given that we saw the verdict yesterday that um heard 767 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: has to it what did in fact libel depth according 768 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 1: to the jury and has to pay back more than 769 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: her net worth and damage? Is like, what do you 770 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 1: see the impact being in media? In journalism and then 771 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: just you know generally sort of for all of us 772 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 1: for survived risk of the internet, Like, where do you 773 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 1: see this going? Yeah? I mean the first thing is 774 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: just like anyone who's experienced domestic abuse, anyone who believes 775 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: that they experienced domestic abuse just is not going to 776 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 1: feel as confident coming forward about it. I read a 777 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: statistic yesterday, I think it came from a Rolling Stone 778 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: piece about how just one advocacy group for domestic violence SVIRUS, 779 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 1: was saying that hundreds of women immediately heard the verdict 780 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: and pulled like any anything to do with that charity. 781 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: And they didn't they didn't want to go forward with 782 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,839 Speaker 1: any sort of prosecution or anything they wanted to. They 783 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: don't want to do it. So that's that's the immediate impact. 784 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 1: And that's like that, that's the that's the silent one. 785 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: You know. The next one is that like we're gonna 786 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: see much. I think we're gonna see what's called a 787 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: chilling effect on free speech. You know, for for the 788 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 1: free speech warriors on the right wing, they sure it 789 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,800 Speaker 1: don't seem to want the rest of us to speak. Um. 790 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: So you know that the idea of an op ed 791 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:52,920 Speaker 1: like the one that caused this trial happening again is 792 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: probably much rarer. Now. I think a lot of the 793 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,720 Speaker 1: reporting that was happening around those kinds of stories won't 794 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: happen the same way again. You'll need you'll need to 795 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:07,040 Speaker 1: have harder evidence, tighter reporting guidelines. They'll be more fear 796 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:11,399 Speaker 1: of retribution and things like that. Um. And then like 797 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: I just think that you know, we we don't really 798 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: totally understand like what live streaming a trial does to 799 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,839 Speaker 1: its verdict. And that's that kind of a more open 800 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: ended one. This was a circus. And like you know, 801 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: in Johnny Depp's legal team I think sought out this 802 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: particular court because in this particular judge, because I knew 803 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: it would be an absolute circus. And you know, the 804 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 1: the judge will probably go on to get our own 805 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: TV show on some right wing news channel. So like 806 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,319 Speaker 1: there's just no there's no account of there's no there's 807 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: nothing you can do because everyone involved. It's just in 808 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,399 Speaker 1: bad faith. It's just it's it's a mess. I mean, 809 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: it's funny you say like it's a circus, and I 810 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: know that you mean that as a figure of speech. 811 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: But there were lamas, Like there were lamas and people 812 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: dressed like pirates, and like there's like face painting going on. 813 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,800 Speaker 1: It was a literal circus. I mean, it's a really good, 814 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: I guess, cautionary reminder of how like I feel that 815 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: with the injection of the Internet and lots of strangers 816 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 1: eyes on things, we can have very good things, like 817 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: people can really get accountability. But also it can really 818 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: quickly turn the tide in ways that I think we 819 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 1: should really be aware of. Yeah, and I don't think 820 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: we know yet. I don't think we know exactly how 821 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 1: it turns the tide or shapes public opinion. Yet we 822 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: know that like it causes chaos. We know that it 823 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: like impacts people's understanding of events, but we really don't 824 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: know like long term, like how people will understand this um. 825 00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: I suspect that this traum in particular will be one 826 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: that's like studied and media course is going forward. I mean, 827 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: it is the closest thing we have to like the 828 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: the internet eras o J trial or or or um, 829 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: the Watergate hearings or something, which sounds kind of crazy 830 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,279 Speaker 1: to like elevate the level, But so far it's kind 831 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: of as close as we've come. Unless we get the 832 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 1: actual insurrection hearings. This is probably like the big one 833 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: that we're gonna like study survivors and their advocates are 834 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,839 Speaker 1: wondering what comes next after this precedent setting trial. Toronto Burke, 835 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: the founder of the me too movement, set in a 836 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,280 Speaker 1: statement following the verdict, this movement is very much alive. 837 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: You all want to play ping pong and have your 838 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: way with the hashtag because it doesn't mean anything to you, 839 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,960 Speaker 1: so you try to kill it every few months. But 840 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: it means something to millions and millions of folks. It 841 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,720 Speaker 1: means freedom, it means community, it means safety, it means power. 842 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: You can't kill us. We are beyond the hashtag. We 843 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:40,359 Speaker 1: are a movement. Got a story about an interesting thing 844 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi. You can 845 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 1: reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com. You can 846 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,759 Speaker 1: also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi dot com. 847 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by 848 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 1: me bridgetad. It's a production of I Heeart Radio and 849 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 1: Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Tera Harrison 850 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 1: is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our 851 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want 852 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:04,880 Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. 853 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I heeart Radio, check out the 854 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.