WEBVTT - The Lunar New Years Special: Part 2 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:07.920 Welcome Did It Could Happen Here? Podcast? It recognizes that 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:10.559 Lunar New Year's is not, in fact just one day, 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.600 and in that spirit, our special New Year's episode is 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.000 going on for a second day. So there's the rest 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.800 of our conversation with Jane and Jane you know. The 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:21.840 other thing I wanted to script touch on like this 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:24.360 is I think kind of defferenting off the topic, but 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:26.040 I think it is also something that I've been running 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.760 into a lot, which is that like, you know, you 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.159 have this kind of like you know, you have this 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:33.000 kind of bind right because on the one hand, you're 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.800 stuck between you know, like a lot a lot of 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.960 the organizing and sort of in Asian communities has all 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:43.239 of these problems, and then you know, okay, well, you 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:45.120 know the other thing that's happening is is the sort 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.320 of mainstream American left and the mainstream American left, I 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.400 think the Canadian left has problem similar problems with this 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:55.600 is that like it's a bunch of just like it's 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:57.200 a bunch of tankies, it's a bunch of people who 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:01.200 love the CCP. It's a bunch of just we are 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.640 genocide deniers and like people who think that every Asian 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:08.240 person who like doesn't like the government is a cia 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.679 psi op And I don't know. This is something that 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:13.640 I've like, I mean, I've I ran into a lot 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:16.200 trying to, i mean, help people do in Kong Kong. 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:20.920 Organizing is something I've run into just in like every organize, 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:22.440 like I've I've run I run into this an anarchist 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:27.280 spaces to like it's it's just I don't know. It 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:31.040 feels really bad because it's like like you're you're just 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.320 sort of caught between and I guess it's is sort 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:36.319 of there's this three way triangulation, right because on the 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:40.160 one hand, you have this sort of like you have 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.400 the local dynamics with you know, the sort of the 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.720 sentence of the sort of reactionary small business owners. You 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:51.520 have this, you know, the Chinese community also being sort 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.680 of split in between like pro and anti CCP factions, 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:59.360 both of whom have like are absolutely chock full of 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.240 natical right wingers. It's like, well, okay, it's like the 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.680 CCP vers Epoch times and it's like I don't want 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:09.119 any of them to win and then use them out. 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:10.960 And you're caught in the middle of this sort of 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:15.640 they're caught in the middle of the sort of I 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:17.080 don't know. I think it's sort of like a fox 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:19.600 geopolitical struggle, but like one of one of the big 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:24.440 sort of ideological conflicts being between both the CCP in 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.200 the US sort of like using the specter of each 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.000 other to sort of like disturb their basis. And I 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:35.280 don't know, I am incredibly frustrated by I'm incredibly frustrated 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.480 by the way that these groups have expected like the 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.919 ant CCP, like the pro CCP groups are sort of 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:46.760 selectively been using and like selectively been using anti ation violence, 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:50.440 as you know, they basically making the arguments of the 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.000 importance of anti ation violence is that while this only 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:55.080 happens because people say many things about the CCP, and 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.240 if no one didn't like the CCP, then there wouldn't 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.200 be any violence, even though like anti Asian violence here 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.639 predates the existence of a communist party in China by centuries, 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.240 like we we like the we we invaded, we invaded China, 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:16.080 like how many times, at least twice, maybe three I 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:18.520 think at least twice and maybe three times, like before 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.160 there was a communist party. And so I don't know, 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:26.359 I I feel trapped a lot between these dynamics in 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:31.360 ways that are very frustrating. And yeah, I just want 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.160 to open the floor to talk about that. I guess 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:40.920 I see it as like co optation partly, UM, but 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:47.880 I guess I also see it as how power works. 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:52.640 Like I there's like this local paper and I was 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:59.600 researching sort of the history of Chinese diaspora organizing locally, 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:06.640 and there was a spat in the paper between two 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:12.760 people who one of whom is from UM, a newer 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:17.880 Hong Kong diaspora. There was like a whole spat um 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:25.960 in the paper about his history. And there's the history 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:31.240 of like those tensions are like written in the community itself, 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:35.360 like it's it's it's not a new thing that people 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.440 argue about what happened on June four. It's not new 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:44.400 that people are really mistrustful each other and that there 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:52.360 are actual like government forces that infiltrate and create a 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:59.120 like basically deny other people's struggles like UM, when the 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:03.440 that government is themselves perpetuating it. And I guess it 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:08.280 just is really hard when fellow organizers that you otherwise 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:12.600 really like I want to get along with, are are 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:18.640 like uncritical of the state that has oppressed your family 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.120 because you're just kind of like you're kind of like, wait, 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.800 so are we have we had a conversation about this, 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.919 Like we clearly haven't talked eno if this is what 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.840 you believe in, And it's just a little bit hard 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:37.520 because it's like community building is not assuming that we're 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:41.000 in solidarity. Community building is actually like doing that hard 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.680 work like what is your community experiencing and what is 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:50.040 my community experiencing? How are we being like weaponized against 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:55.360 each other? Like yeah, how are these governments like manipulating 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.880 like communities? But that's like really hard when trust has 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:04.720 been and probably broken, Like me, yeah, I think you're 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.920 so right that it's it's really about co optation and 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:10.520 a lot of it, like what I've witnessed is really 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.680 so much about UM And this is like, like you're saying, Jane, 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:17.839 this is a much older dynamic than you know just 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.719 the past couple of years. Is like, uh, states being 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.440 able to use this kind of home and asper of 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:29.960 framework to UM demand loyalty through like targeting desper people's 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:34.280 guilt UM and so there's so many like guilty desper 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.760 people I know who are like you know, usually from 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:40.880 usually from a class perspective, right, because they had the 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.160 their family had the resources to leave or uh they 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:48.080 were not born in the home country or whatever because 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.240 of their family background, that type of thing, and they 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:55.279 want to subsume that by taking this radical you know, 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.880 anti U s anti Canada stance, um, which is fine, 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.440 Like obviously being anti US and anti Canada is a 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.520 good thing. But um, the thing that's really kind of 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:06.720 frustrated me the most is seeing these kind of like 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:12.000 radical folks in North America, especially queer folks who are 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:17.240 like they'll take the most reactionary positions against women and 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.240 queer and you know LGBT folks in China, for example, 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.680 by supporting a state that is repressing them. Right. So 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.920 it's it's such cognitive dissonance to me, Like, I don't 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:33.360 understand why these folks can't see, um that they're kind 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.520 of perpetuating this violence in the service of this kind 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:41.040 of overarching imperative of not ever seeing anything bad about 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:44.160 China because it will help, it'll it'll bolster the US 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:49.560 propaganda war machine, which is like, there's absolutely a way 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.320 that I mean that absolutely happens if you do that, 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.400 uh un carefully right if you just kind of repeat 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.400 um US media narratives and stuff like that. But I 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:04.360 think there's absolutely a way to do both right and UM. 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:06.400 To me, the way to do that is to not 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.960 um support the state discourses that demand loyalty from the 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.560 dask bro but to actually, you know, it's the grassroots thing, right. 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.280 It's just kind of like we support career folks around 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.880 the world who are struggling under oppression from their governments 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.640 and that type of thing. UM. And being able to 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.920 very carefully say that with nuance UM and to be 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.840 against both at the same time, for example, UM, well 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.199 that's really really difficult, right, UM. And people have very 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:37.920 kind of vitriolic reactions when you try and do that. Um. 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.559 As you know, she set up talk Chris, So, I 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.440 don't know this. This is still the contrum for me 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:47.000 because I tend to take the more rigid stance against 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.600 against these folks. But I know people who are very 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.600 kind of they take a more compassionate stance, which is 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.480 like these these are newly plus politicized youth. Um, they're 0:08:56.559 --> 0:09:00.280 just coming to a lot of these politics and positions. UM. 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.360 And you know, being anti US is better than not 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.800 being anti us. Is it's what a lot of folks say, 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.200 and you know, I agree to a certain extent, But 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:15.480 then it's also like if they're being miseducated in these histories, Um, 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.199 that's okay to a certain point when you're exploring and 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:22.160 discovering these things and becoming radicalized. But you know, like 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.000 Jane said, there's also these kind of material, direct impacts 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.240 that you have on people that you work with, that 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.760 you organize with, that that are your friends or loved ones, 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.760 um that you know, that kind of explanation of like, oh, 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.959 they're just learning is like it's insufficient in that kind 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.160 of individual way because you're still hurting people and threatening 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.120 people around you, right, So I think there has to 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.920 be a balance and like being able to steer folks 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:51.800 in into these like non Stalinist, non statist directions even 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:56.840 while they're discovering. I hate how we're even having to 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:02.200 be like steering people into a non sell yeah perspective. 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:07.000 I'm just like I'm not a horny for stalin I 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.000 like the thing that pisces me off about this it's 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:11.199 just like like they're not even Stalinist. Like this is 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:13.559 the thing that's frustrating, Like if if if if they 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.800 were merely twentieth century Stalinist, we wouldn't be having this 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.800 argument because you know, twenty century Stalinism is like well, yeah, okay, 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.480 like twenty century Stalinist or anti market economy, and it's 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:26.960 like no, they've they've somehow found a way to take 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:31.200 literally the worst aspects of Stalinism and then be like, okay, 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.320 but what if what if? What if Stalinism but also 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.360 capitalism good at the same time, And it's just like 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.240 how how did you do this? Like how how did 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.520 you come up with an ideology that like I don't know, 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:46.880 I mean, I think, I think Also I think that's 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:51.240 been frustrating to me about this is like it's a 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:56.560 way of sort of of of it becomes this way 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.599 of channeling you know, you have the deasperate guilt in 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:00.920 the one hand, that you have just random sort of 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:05.480 like white leftists sort of white guilt, and it becomes 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:09.320 this way of like channeling that into this sort of 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:12.560 follow anti racism where you know, you get you get 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:16.480 people who are like actual professional like hacks, right like 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.959 Roger Day for example, being like, uh, you know, to 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:22.599 doing things like wow, if you if you if you 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:24.200 could if you criticize this time you stay it all 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:26.880 that sinophobia and like you're directly leading to people getting killed, 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:30.640 and it's like, no, that's not how this works. And 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:36.880 there's this kind of it's it's it's it's this problem 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:44.520 of they have this this fundamental inability to see Chinese 0:11:44.520 --> 0:11:47.600 people as people and not a sort of undifferentiated mass 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.480 that can be sort of rallied behind in ideology. And 0:11:54.679 --> 0:12:04.480 I don't know that's been I think weird to deal 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:08.000 with because you know, like yeah, like you you're always 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.760 just in in Chinese communities, like you're always you're just 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.480 you're just gonna have like you know that there's gonna 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:15.000 be a few people who are just sort of like 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:17.439 pro CCP right wingers, right, that's just that's just a 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:23.920 sort of defailed political position. But there's there's this way 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:30.920 in which you get this, you know, people adopting I 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.720 mean just things that like if you said this about 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:36.880 any like white American for example, if you if you 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.360 argued that any like a white American making a thousand 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:41.960 dollars a year wasn't in poverty, but like you just 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:44.680 couldn't do it, you like, you know, it's it's it's 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:46.959 literally impossible, like you you'd be laughing out of the 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:49.680 room or you know, like you're you would you would 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.720 you would be like ratioed until the cows come home. 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:53.720 But you can just but everyone and people just say 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.439 this constantly, like this is just just a thing that 0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:58.320 was like, well, if you look at poverty productions, like 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:02.480 well Chinese, China's eliminated absolute poverty, it's like, yeah, okay, 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.679 they a thousand dollars a year is outside of this now. 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:10.760 And I think there's these ways in which it becomes 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:15.280 hard to to intervene in this stuff because like every 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.920 every Asian person, specifically the Chinese person just becomes a 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.120 sort of token that like you know, you just sort 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.280 of like throw at each other as just like oh, 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.920 well yeah, here's the Chinese person who says that the 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:30.079 CCP is good. It's like, well, here's another Chinese person 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:32.360 who says that it's bad, and it's like you never 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:38.280 It's like on both sides, whether whether the process people 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.319 realize it or not, it's their agencies being sort of 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:41.880 stripped by them and they've they've been turned into this 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:46.400 sort of instrumentalized like you know, in the in the 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:47.760 same thing that they're also doing to us, is that 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:49.560 they're turning into sort of these instruments that you can 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:54.719 use to like back your own sort of brought in 0:13:54.760 --> 0:14:01.640 political agenda. And this I don't know, like this has 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:03.839 gotten me to just I I just don't work with 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.880 these people anymore. Like we tried it, it was a disaster. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.480 They screwed us over And so I don't know. But 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:13.160 but but I think that's that's a that's a lonely 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.720 stance in a lot of ways. Like you know, if 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.680 if you take this kind of like hardline position, you're 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.560 not gonna most people, even other people who don't support it, 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.720 probably won't follow you there. I don't know, it's weird 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:30.040 because I find a lot of organizing is really lonely. 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:38.160 It's like it's not like like I want to boast 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:43.440 around being like why aren't you all donatings? But that's 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:47.440 not that's also guilt, right, that's like projecting guilt onto 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:51.200 other people, um, and that's not an effective tool. And 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:55.880 I think that like like so right, and addressing both 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:59.680 the white guilt but also the diaspora guilt, and also 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:05.160 just how frustrating it is to organize against the state 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.920 when it's like two people, like three people doing it 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:10.560 in a little group project for lack of a better word. 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:15.160 But it's sort of like, how do we make this 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:20.200 sustainable when it's so lonely? And how do we use 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:26.080 the resources that are available to us? Two not replicate 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:31.160 these systems yet again? And I guess when it comes 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:38.240 to the left or progressive in Canada, it's like so 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:43.600 frustrating because it's like there isn't actually a lot of 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:52.640 community outreach to like racialized communities. There's no translation. There's 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:58.560 a lot of like nonprofit work that is frankly very 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:03.320 draining and co optive themselves. Um Like it's it's a 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.680 bunch of social service organizations in a trench code and 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:11.680 a bunch of political organizations that don't work together or 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.440 talk to each other in a trench code. And um 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:21.280 so I understand why youth would join like leftist like 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:26.800 radical organizing, but it it's just really heartbreaking when it's 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.800 you're they end up reading in reading groups where they're 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:38.280 reading historical or so called historical texts that erase your histories. 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:45.000 Like it's just such a like like reading is great, 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:51.320 like political education is incredible. Um but I'm like it's 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:55.680 hard not to grow resentful. So when the guy at 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.800 the top is a university educated white dude and they're 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:05.520 reading texts that literally erase your entire family, and it's, 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:08.720 um that like yeah, for me, it's like just really 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:13.640 personal that way. It's like there are people who are 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:18.560 suffering in the present and you're reading a text by 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:23.280 a white sociologist from the eighties, like like not like 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:28.080 I'm like, it's not that like I don't think that 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.399 we should do that political education. It's just that like 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.360 at a reading group, will you listen to me when 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:42.680 I call you out? Yeah, I definitely you know, both 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.800 of you saying that this work is really lonely, especially 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:47.720 if you take if you stand up for yourself, for 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.360 you you really kind of stand by your principles. It's 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.159 I think that's so true. And um, you know, not 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:55.960 to speak for everyone in laws on, but just my 0:17:56.040 --> 0:18:00.960 experience has been like you know, everyone just everyone hates us, 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.880 like it's you know, we got hate from the right, 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:08.240 we got hate from the left, um and from Hong 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.960 Kong's asp or from Hong Kong locals, like it's it's 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.879 just sometimes it's really hard to see you know, because 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.000 we're we're trying to stay true to our principles, but 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.200 it's hard to see sometimes whether there's an impact or 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.000 whether we're just kind of like in a little echo 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:26.920 chamber with twenty other people, you know what I mean. 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:32.439 And um, it's hard to find that balance because I 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:36.600 don't want to become more and more pragmatists where I'm 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:38.800 just like, all right, well, you know, I'll work with 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:40.880 these people, but I don't agree with them on these 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.560 fundamental issues, just on this one campaign or whatever happens 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.080 to be. I don't know. I know that's a part 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.360 of like building power quote unquote like that a lot 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:52.400 of uh, certain socialist groups like to do or they're 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.720 they're really focused on that kind of thing. But I 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:57.600 don't know if it's too much of an academic few 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.560 too to be like, if you're gonna do it that way, 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.360 you're you're you're changing the outcome already, right because you're 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:07.159 not addressing these kind of fundamental issues from the start 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.960 um And I think that view can sometimes lead to 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.159 like a lot of non starters where you're just like 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:17.360 things don't ever get off the ground because you insist 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:21.399 on whatever fundamental principle that you that you want to 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:26.480 stick to, uh like anti nationalism for example. So yeah, 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.199 just just kind of reiterating and commiserating with you all 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:42.760 on the long laitness of that people think that like 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.800 not working in these sort of unitfferent things is this 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.320 like sort of purity logical position. But like you know, 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:55.280 I mean so when when Occupy Ice was happening, right, 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.479 Occupy Ice wound up being a kind of big friend thing, 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:00.280 and one of the groups involved with it was was 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.600 the Party for Socialism Liberation, who are this sort of 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:09.320 like very much sort of like they're basically tanking cult 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:11.880 like they've There's not a lot of other horrible stuff 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:13.560 that will talk about at some point, but I mean, 0:20:13.600 --> 0:20:16.080 one of the things that happens, you know, Occupy Ice 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:20.280 is that they you know, in Philadelphia, they destroy the encampment, 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:25.280 like they convince enough people to just leave and do 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.720 this completely pointless like march they can do a photo 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:29.639 op of like people in front of the Mayor's office 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:31.480 and they do it, and they camp collapses because suddenly 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:33.280 there's not enough people. You know, they don't even get 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:35.160 a majority of the people, but it doesn't matter because 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.159 they pulled enough people out that you know, that the 0:20:38.240 --> 0:20:40.879 camp couldn't be held against the cops anymore. And I 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.200 think that in some senses this is kind of microcosm 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:45.919 of what they what these people actually do, which is 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:47.920 that you know that these people will never have any 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.240 actual institutional power, right, you know, they're they're never going 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:53.680 to create their like salentist state or whatever, like they're 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:55.240 never going to get this. They're they're never gonna hold 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.280 any power. What they can do is there are enough 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:00.560 of them, they can they can siphon off enough people 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:04.080 from actual leftist movements into this sort of just like 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.159 white room pro capitalist stuff that they can they can 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.080 cause peoples to collapse. And I mean they've done this. 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.960 They did a lot of this stream the uprising, and 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.680 there is a lot of them, you know, intentionally leading 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:17.920 people on pointless marches. There's a lot of cop writing 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:19.520 with the police and stuff like that. And I think 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:25.240 that you know, it's it's it's like having seen that 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:30.479 like multiple times, right I I you know, I you know, 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:32.760 for me, like not working with him is an incredibly 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:37.600 pragmatic position because we tried it and they blew it up. 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.080 But it's this problem especially you know, you have people 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.920 who are radicalized in and it's like, well, yeah, I mean, 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:45.600 I don't know, like a lot of them never saw 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:48.119 this stuff, right, don't know who these people are. And 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:50.360 their first instruction to the left is just like incredibly 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:55.320 well financed like media blitz, and I think that has 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.520 you know, I think that as consequences both for us 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:03.919 as sort of like people on the left doing like 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:06.480 Chinese people on the left doing our own desk, but organizing, 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.280 and it has consequences for the broader left, and like 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:11.920 you you can see other sort of versions of this 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:15.560 right where you know, you have a sort of right 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:17.760 wing we've been infiltrating left to spaces and destroying them 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:19.560 like they're they're like there were there was a thing 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:23.359 de cream Resistance basically blew up a like an anti 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:26.920 lithium protest in the US by just like going there 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:31.840 and just hammering transphobia constantly. And so I don't know, 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:38.400 I think there's there's this sort of dilemma because fundament 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:40.960 like they will say a lot of the same things 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.920 we do, but we have fundamentally different goals, and that 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:49.399 manifests itself at you know, on the level of of 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:53.040 of organizing individual campaigns, but it's something that's really hard 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:57.520 to get people to see. I think we've lost a 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.600 lot of movements because of it. Yeah, not to be 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.320 you know, not to pile on the cynicism or anything, 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:08.280 but I think, I honestly do think, uh, you know, 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:10.560 as all this new Cold War stuff ramps up, which 0:23:10.600 --> 0:23:15.480 is like completely independent of what a lot of folks, 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:19.760 like grassroots folks are even thinking or advocating, it's all 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:23.639 just kind of up to the the two uh you know, 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:27.200 Chinese and US governments as they ramp up their own tensions. 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:30.639 I think it's really going to start, like people are 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:33.840 going to start these people who are um, you know, 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:37.320 tankys or whatever, are going to start narrowing our choices 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:41.240 further and further right, like, you know, as soon it's 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:44.119 going to be an athema to to not you know, 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:47.600 take the anti US position and that's it, you know 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:51.280 what I mean. And I think that's really scary to me. 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:55.640 I don't I last year, I thought there was still 0:23:55.720 --> 0:24:00.080 room for intervention, but things are closing so quickly. And 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:03.280 you know, my personal opinion is that a lot of 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:06.880 these kind of bigger groups like No Cold War UM 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:11.159 and others like Code pink are are definitely being you 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:13.320 know that they have much more funding than a lot 0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:18.240 of other groups who are boarding more nuanced positions, and 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:20.879 so like you're saying, it's just like these media blitz 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:24.440 is that these shiny events and all those different things 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:28.240 are very appealing to newly ic radicalized folks, right because 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:30.399 they think that this, this is where the power is 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:32.280 and this is where we can actually make a difference. 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:37.520 Um and yeah, things to me, things look pretty bleak 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:42.200 in the near future. I mean it just takes one Yeah, yeah, 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:44.719 I will see. I think I think they made one 0:24:44.760 --> 0:24:46.800 major city mistake, which is they tried to do the 0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:49.239