Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd
Speaker 1: and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: Today's episode of There Are No Girls on the Internet
Speaker 1: was actually taped live from Digital Lloyd's Our Connected Future
Speaker 1: event a few weeks ago. So if you don't know
Speaker 1: Digital Void, they are a great multimedia project that studies
Speaker 1: the way that the Internet and technology shapes all of
Speaker 1: our brains as humans. And at their event, I was
Speaker 1: so excited to sit down with Amanda More. Amanda's story
Speaker 1: is fascinating. She worked in live events until COVID hit
Speaker 1: and then she lost her job, broke and struggling with
Speaker 1: how to get connected with financial services like unemployment, she
Speaker 1: did what anyone would do, created an alias and went
Speaker 1: undercover into the world of white supremacists and far right
Speaker 1: extremists for a year. Okay, so maybe not everybody would
Speaker 1: do that, just Amanda. Amanda fed stories to journalists help
Speaker 1: shine a light on the inner workings of the underbelly
Speaker 1: of white supremacists. She was at the Capitol during the
Speaker 1: insurrection on January six, and the night that we sat
Speaker 1: down together at Washington d c's union stage. The trucker
Speaker 1: convoy that started up in Canada was actively circling around
Speaker 1: d C trying to create chaos, which I feel like
Speaker 1: it's pretty fitting. Now. Amanda's story is a great reminder
Speaker 1: of how much dangerous, difficult work of making our democracy
Speaker 1: safer is being done by women. So let's listen. That's
Speaker 1: my theme song. Remember me. I am Bridget Todd. I
Speaker 1: am the host and creator of I Heart Radios. There
Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet, a podcast where we
Speaker 1: explore Oh alright, I'll take that. Yeah, that's mattering of
Speaker 1: a pause. I have to say this is my first
Speaker 1: live podcast taping, so if I seem a little nervous,
Speaker 1: that is why. Um, you know, on the show, if
Speaker 1: you don't know what it's about, we explore all the
Speaker 1: different ways that marginalized folks, so women, people of color, transpolkes,
Speaker 1: queer folks, all the different ways that we show up
Speaker 1: or don't show up online. And you know, a reality
Speaker 1: of this work is that time and time again, so
Speaker 1: much of the work making Internet spaces safer, better, more
Speaker 1: inclusive is being done by women and other marginalized folks.
Speaker 1: And it is work that is dangerous. It is personally
Speaker 1: costly and we hardly ever recognize that work. And that's
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I'm so excited to be talking
Speaker 1: to my first ever live podcast guests, Amanda give it
Speaker 1: up for Amanda. This is also my first live podcast experience.
Speaker 1: So we are We're in this together. We got this.
Speaker 1: So Aman that you spent a year of your life
Speaker 1: being embedded with some of the worst sort of far right,
Speaker 1: extreme French folks, folks like UM. Give us a few
Speaker 1: of the names of the folks that you were kicking
Speaker 1: it with. So here's the worst part is that you
Speaker 1: won't know their names, but they're busy writing legislation. But
Speaker 1: they are like former members of Patriot Front and I
Speaker 1: Didner Europa and other hate groups that you would recognize.
Speaker 1: So how did this? How did you come to spend
Speaker 1: a year of your life doing this? Take us take
Speaker 1: us back? How did this start? UM? So, I've always
Speaker 1: had an interest in politics. I was raised Evangelical. My
Speaker 1: parents are both Trump voters, UM, and I was a
Speaker 1: libertarian until I was like twenty six, which is super embarrassing. UM,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people that I knew a libertarian
Speaker 1: movement ended up moving into UM. The extreme far right
Speaker 1: summer in jail. Some are you know, Proud Boys who
Speaker 1: should probably be in jail. H Some you know, like
Speaker 1: I was very I was not friends with Chris Kent well,
Speaker 1: the crying Nazi from Charlottesville, but we knew people in common,
Speaker 1: and um so I've always been able to kind of
Speaker 1: move within that word world. And my job was just
Speaker 1: completely belly up. I'm in live events, so it was
Speaker 1: it ceased to exist. During COVID, had a lot of
Speaker 1: free time, so I went to the top Steel rallies.
Speaker 1: I kind of just walked to them and you know,
Speaker 1: recorded whatever, and so that meant I was at the insurrection.
Speaker 1: So then I was at the insurrection. I was like,
Speaker 1: oh shit, this is this is real and we're really
Speaker 1: going to do this now. And um I kind of
Speaker 1: escalated from there without me attending for it too. Something
Speaker 1: that you write about so interestingly is, you know, we
Speaker 1: all know what happened here in d C on Januar
Speaker 1: ray six, but you actually talk about the way that
Speaker 1: the climate that was fostered at some of the earlier
Speaker 1: events and earlier rallies in d C, um you know,
Speaker 1: by people like the Proud Boys really did sort of
Speaker 1: lead to what we saw on the six. Can you
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that, like, like, what were
Speaker 1: you seeing in the lead up to what happened on
Speaker 1: the six At some of these events, there's a moment
Speaker 1: that will live in my mind for the rest of
Speaker 1: my life. I was in front of the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: It was December, the December stop the Steel rally, and
Speaker 1: this woman told me I was almost assaulted at the
Speaker 1: November rally. And I asked her what happened and she
Speaker 1: said she was walking back to the Trump Hotel and
Speaker 1: her phone had died, and uh, some guys ran past
Speaker 1: her and she she just took off running and that
Speaker 1: that was it. That was the whole story. That was
Speaker 1: the story of her near assault. And it was incredibly
Speaker 1: strange to me at the time. And she said, you know,
Speaker 1: she had to be like maybe fifty, and she said,
Speaker 1: I marched the Proud Boys last night until two in
Speaker 1: the morning. And you might recall the Proud Boys like
Speaker 1: stab people when they were doing that. So um it
Speaker 1: really it really just struck me that she was so
Speaker 1: afraid of everybody here and everything in the situation of
Speaker 1: just being in this liberal waste land where we're ninety
Speaker 1: for Joe Biden, you know, um that she thought that
Speaker 1: walking past her was almost assaulting her. And later that night,
Speaker 1: I was in front of Harry's after another stabbing, and um,
Speaker 1: we like I watched all the Proud Boys line up
Speaker 1: and they started marching and chanting, and Alex Jones was
Speaker 1: like giving us this pep talk, you know, seventeen seventy six,
Speaker 1: seventeen seventy six. And then the probably started like going
Speaker 1: off in groups of eight to ten, as though they
Speaker 1: were like going off to war, and so like Grandpa's
Speaker 1: or like telling them good luck, thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you for your service. And they're just walking around
Speaker 1: downtown do you see, like terrorizing whoever they see, And
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's it's so disgun from reality. But
Speaker 1: there was this it felt like a coordinated campaign to
Speaker 1: make everybody who flew here and came here from out
Speaker 1: of town, whether they were from a real like city
Speaker 1: or from you know, like the middle of nowhere, it
Speaker 1: didn't matter to just feel like everybody here was against them.
Speaker 1: And this this is Antifa. You're all Antifa. You know,
Speaker 1: if you're here physically present, you are like an Antifa
Speaker 1: super soldier. Um, and so just seeing that that coordinate
Speaker 1: effort was bizarre. Yeah, It's something I like about your
Speaker 1: work is that it really grounds it in this idea
Speaker 1: that d C is a city where people live, and
Speaker 1: that I think that for a lot of people, d
Speaker 1: C is an abstraction. They don't understand that people actually
Speaker 1: live here. And I have lived here most of my life,
Speaker 1: and you know, I still have friends from different cities
Speaker 1: who would swear that in d C burn of the
Speaker 1: ground and like cease us to exist. I'll be like, oh,
Speaker 1: how are you out there in d C? And I
Speaker 1: think that your work helps us see that this is
Speaker 1: a real city, if people live here, it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: And so I really appreciate that. Um. You know, when
Speaker 1: you think about how people report about extremist movements and
Speaker 1: extreme these extremist figures, what is something that folks leave out?
Speaker 1: What is something that you wish that people knew about
Speaker 1: how these groups actually operate. I think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of coverage of what the final result is without a
Speaker 1: lot of coverage of like that lead up in I
Speaker 1: first wrote about my experience of January six and the
Speaker 1: lead up to it and talking about people feeling like
Speaker 1: they were targeted just because they were like a Trump
Speaker 1: supporter with in d C. And not just targeted for
Speaker 1: people to really like you saw it go away, but
Speaker 1: like targeted for like actual like violence. Um, A lot
Speaker 1: of people reach out to me, were like, I had
Speaker 1: no idea it was like that in DC. You know,
Speaker 1: like a lot of people don't realize that Bowser told
Speaker 1: us to stay home. Our mayor told us to stay
Speaker 1: home and did not go out to that counter protest.
Speaker 1: And she told us that three times. And it's you know,
Speaker 1: in my opinions, possible that like January six could have
Speaker 1: possibly not happened if more people had left their houses
Speaker 1: in November December. And UM, I just think, you know,
Speaker 1: something is missing because I am like, I've also lived
Speaker 1: most of my life here and if I can see
Speaker 1: that failure, and a lot of these journalists who are
Speaker 1: writing about this, they lived here, and why can't they
Speaker 1: see it? You know, I don't know. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's like an outlet issue whre they're not allowed
Speaker 1: to publish something like that. But um, there's there's a
Speaker 1: lot that goes on. UM. I think within the way
Speaker 1: that movements are organized, when people get pushed back they
Speaker 1: get really upset. Um. I mean, look at these truckers now,
Speaker 1: they're literally like crying because people are giving them the finger.
Speaker 1: And I'm someone that the truckers told to smile actually
Speaker 1: on the side of the road. So um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think like that component is missing, Like how how
Speaker 1: these extreme ast actions affect people before it becomes violent crimes,
Speaker 1: and like the situations which they live, um, and just
Speaker 1: how people people interact the other things Like I'm just
Speaker 1: like continue to go on and on. But like another
Speaker 1: thing that I've noticed is that for me, you know,
Speaker 1: I spent covid uh, you know, flying around the country
Speaker 1: like hanging out with some of the worst people. But
Speaker 1: you know, we were hanging out, we were at bars,
Speaker 1: and um, that camaraderie and that that sense of companionship
Speaker 1: that a lot of people were missing in one you know,
Speaker 1: we weren't missing. I mean I was deeply missing it
Speaker 1: because I hated everybody around me. But everyone else is
Speaker 1: having like a great time, you know. Um. So I
Speaker 1: think too, like that's been underreported, um a great deal,
Speaker 1: And I don't really know why because to me, it
Speaker 1: seems pretty obvious. You know, if you're going out every
Speaker 1: weekend and you're having a blast and COVID is unreal.
Speaker 1: Of course, you know you're gonna want to like adopt
Speaker 1: whatever you believe to the people that are around you.
Speaker 1: You want to fit in. Yeah, that's something that you
Speaker 1: write so compellingly about, is this idea of the camaraderie
Speaker 1: and the relationship building um in. You know, in my
Speaker 1: day job, a lot of it is thinking and writing
Speaker 1: about conspiracy theories how people get wrapped up in them,
Speaker 1: and a big part of it that we don't really
Speaker 1: talk about is the relationships that you know. I know
Speaker 1: I have friends from high school who are deep into
Speaker 1: Q and on, and a big thing about it is that,
Speaker 1: like they are in their day to day lives, maybe
Speaker 1: they're not being supported, maybe they're not being told that
Speaker 1: they're smart, that they're smart. Maybe they they don't feel
Speaker 1: very smart on a day to day basis, and now
Speaker 1: someone is telling them, not only are you smart, you're
Speaker 1: seeing something that no one else sees. You're smarter than
Speaker 1: everyone around you. And how seductive that is. And so,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think that your work really helps
Speaker 1: us understand that so much of extremism and why people
Speaker 1: get wrapped up in it can really be about the
Speaker 1: relationships and the camaraderie. Yeah, yeah, thank you. Um, And
Speaker 1: then you know, I I was raised evangelical, and like
Speaker 1: a lot of being raised evangelical is being told, like
Speaker 1: you know something nobody else knows and you have to
Speaker 1: tell everyone so they understand. And you know, like people
Speaker 1: don't believe the raptor is going to happen, but when
Speaker 1: it happens, you know, you'll be up there in heaven
Speaker 1: and everybody who ever laughed at you will be down here.
Speaker 1: And I see a lot of that, especially within the
Speaker 1: Q and on community. Um, there were be times people
Speaker 1: talk to you and thank you and on I'd be like,
Speaker 1: oh am my eight years old again every back in church?
Speaker 1: Is that what this is? Because it feels like it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think, um, that sense of of we
Speaker 1: have figured something out that nobody else can, We've cracked
Speaker 1: the code, and you know for having a great time,
Speaker 1: I'll join it is is so important understanding why this happening. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's I think it's one of those things
Speaker 1: that's maybe difficult to acknowledge because it's a little bit complex. Um.
Speaker 1: You know you mentioned earlier when we first started talking
Speaker 1: that some of the names of the far right extremists
Speaker 1: that you were embedded with during this time in your life. Uh,
Speaker 1: we wouldn't know their names. And I guess one of
Speaker 1: my questions is, are there ways that you see these
Speaker 1: fringe movements and fringe leaders finding their way into more
Speaker 1: traditional mainstream right wing politics. They're already legislation and they
Speaker 1: work at foreign embassies, so I think they're there. M
Speaker 1: hm damn, Like, like, what can you really say to that.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break at our back. So, you know,
Speaker 1: when you were doing this work, when you were in
Speaker 1: bed with these people, did you ever have a time
Speaker 1: where someone said something to you and you almost slipped
Speaker 1: and you almost like what, like, what was it like
Speaker 1: to be embedded with these people? You know, you've got
Speaker 1: far right fringe people blowing up your phone, texting you
Speaker 1: for a date, stuff like that, Like what was that like?
Speaker 1: And did you ever have a moment where you almost
Speaker 1: slipt somebody said something to you that was so out
Speaker 1: of pocket that you almost were like, I'm gonna let
Speaker 1: this whole ruise fall by the wayside. Yeah, but it's
Speaker 1: like so stupid. It's um I dealt with so much
Speaker 1: for so long and I I I. My first undercover
Speaker 1: thing was in November, and then in August I flew
Speaker 1: to Portland, Oregon to go on a date with a
Speaker 1: former member of Patriot Front who again it's helping right legislation,
Speaker 1: and UM, he was like, there's gonna be a fight.
Speaker 1: Feel him and Tifa are going to fight the Proud
Speaker 1: Boys and you will have a picnic and we'll watch it.
Speaker 1: And I was like, um, is this like the Battle
Speaker 1: of bulve Run And he was like, that's the spirit.
Speaker 1: So I flew out and the whole thing was a
Speaker 1: bus because the Proud Boys minute up going into a
Speaker 1: Camar parking lot and then tear gassing themselves, so we
Speaker 1: couldn't have our picnic, but we did spend eight and
Speaker 1: a half hours in his minivan talking and UM. We
Speaker 1: were also like walking around in Portland and we were
Speaker 1: walking by, um some tents, and he started talking about
Speaker 1: homeless people and I was like, oh my god, this
Speaker 1: is like it's so humiliating and embarrassing, and I just
Speaker 1: people can hear you talk, and I wish that nobody
Speaker 1: could hear you talk. UM, and he was like, you know,
Speaker 1: the homeless, they could really be good for us because
Speaker 1: When I was at January six, I noticed all of
Speaker 1: the homeless people had American fly other tents and I
Speaker 1: was just like, you fucking idiot, we put those there?
Speaker 1: I like, I couldn't believe that this man actually thought
Speaker 1: people who don't have homes went out and bought Trump
Speaker 1: flags in American flags and put them up on their tents.
Speaker 1: And I I it took me like a minute to
Speaker 1: recover from it, because it's just like, how, how do you, like,
Speaker 1: what what about Trump's policies made you believe that, like
Speaker 1: people who don't have homes, Like that's a guy. And
Speaker 1: he was like, yeah, they'll fight because they believe in
Speaker 1: the cause. I'm like, I don't think that's true. And
Speaker 1: my response was so aggressive and because I'm like from here,
Speaker 1: you know, like I'm not like the docile like trad wife,
Speaker 1: like nobody nobody is falling for that trick um. And
Speaker 1: I was just like, no, that's so stupid, literally, demist
Speaker 1: I've ever heard, like, no, this is not we we
Speaker 1: put those tents. We put those flags there, and he's
Speaker 1: like are you sure, and like I lived there, like yes,
Speaker 1: I'm sure, um, and like that doesn't get broke me.
Speaker 1: But It's it's weird how you're able to like compartmentalize
Speaker 1: things for so long and then something so stupid. I
Speaker 1: mean that's like like I wouldn't be very clear, Like
Speaker 1: I like the same guy. The first night I met him,
Speaker 1: he asked me at a Turning Point USA event, which
Speaker 1: is supposed to be a mainstream conservative event, he asked me,
Speaker 1: what what would you, you know, do if you were
Speaker 1: rule of America? And I didn't want to radicalize anybody,
Speaker 1: so I always aired on the side of like kind
Speaker 1: of dumbing it down, like I don't know, I'm just
Speaker 1: a blondediot, so cool, Like what would you do? And
Speaker 1: he goes, I'm thinking like a friendly or Nazi Germany?
Speaker 1: So that did not break me. What broke me was
Speaker 1: this like idea that you really thought these people I
Speaker 1: bought these Trump flags and like decorated there, like the
Speaker 1: are just so stupid and so um you know. It's
Speaker 1: it's weird the things that like just dig into your
Speaker 1: brain when you're doing it, because you're you're able to
Speaker 1: like or I I mean obviously not everybody, but like
Speaker 1: I was able to just push so much aside, and
Speaker 1: then that just like so know that that's really the
Speaker 1: only time. Another time a guy told me conservatives won't
Speaker 1: have phones anymore. They're going to take away our phones,
Speaker 1: T Mobile, A T and t our Rise and it's coming.
Speaker 1: And I was like, do you want to tell me more?
Speaker 1: And you pointed at my phone, and so I, um,
Speaker 1: I recorded everything. I had the second iPhone, my old iPhone,
Speaker 1: and I had a wireless micup in my bra and
Speaker 1: the receiver was the iPhone. And you pointed it at
Speaker 1: my phone and said, your phone could be recording right now.
Speaker 1: And I was like, that's a little less you know, serious,
Speaker 1: But I did almost be myself. It was very oh
Speaker 1: my god, You're like, oh, well, that one was a freebie,
Speaker 1: so crazy my phone? Oh my god? Did you have
Speaker 1: moments like that? Like I can only imagine This work
Speaker 1: was legitimately very scary at times. Yeah, I mean it
Speaker 1: probably should have been more scary. I feel like I
Speaker 1: should have been more worried. You know. I was docks.
Speaker 1: I was docs in four Tan and I'm I was
Speaker 1: like doing like cuban On stuff and I was doing, um,
Speaker 1: like fascist stuff and so like you know, like like
Speaker 1: literal Nazis right, and the cuban On people figured me
Speaker 1: out um from four chan and when all around the
Speaker 1: telegram and I was like, okay, but like, I'm supposed
Speaker 1: to go to this event in Florida and we're having
Speaker 1: a hotel room party with three Hungarian fascists and six
Speaker 1: American Nazis. I could probably still go. My friends are like, no,
Speaker 1: you really, please don't go, Please don't go, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: but I think I can go. So you know, I
Speaker 1: did not have the uh wherewithal. I don't think to
Speaker 1: uh to judge because I was gonna go. I was
Speaker 1: gonna do it, um, so you know, I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a good normal person would have been like, I'm
Speaker 1: flying to Portland's I'm going to go on this weird
Speaker 1: picnic day with his Nazi. I'm getting in his car
Speaker 1: now we're driving twenty miles away. I should be worried.
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, this is great. What are
Speaker 1: we doing? Where does this like, like, where does this
Speaker 1: come from? That attitude you just described if like not
Speaker 1: being a afraid, and probably maybe most people I would
Speaker 1: be afraid. Most people will be afraid, But where do
Speaker 1: you think that comes from? Any that you didn't have
Speaker 1: that fear? I mean, it's all I've ever known. You know,
Speaker 1: my dad, Um, my dad's pastor. He believes racist people
Speaker 1: from the dead. I went to a q and On
Speaker 1: event at my dad's pastor's church. Um, so it just,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like comfortable. It's it's not it's not
Speaker 1: it's scary or foreign or like a concept that nobody
Speaker 1: you know that I don't understand. To me, it just is.
Speaker 1: And that's why it was so easy for me, because
Speaker 1: I know the language and I know the culture. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I broke my arm halfway through. It sucked.
Speaker 1: I had like tell my surgeon. I was like, She's like,
Speaker 1: we keep doing for surgery on Monday. And I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: so actually, um, are you familiar with the concept that
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton is a pedophile and these children and only
Speaker 1: Donald Trump and stuff? And she was like, what are
Speaker 1: you talking about? And I was like, well, I have
Speaker 1: to go to a quan On events, so we can't
Speaker 1: do surgery. So I delayed surgery for like two weeks
Speaker 1: to go to this qun out event. People were praying
Speaker 1: and tongues on my arm and like most people, I
Speaker 1: feel like could not handle that. But to be I'm
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, it's just literally it's like being back
Speaker 1: in in fifth grade. This is normal, right, um? And
Speaker 1: so I think I think my upbringing really hoped make
Speaker 1: it not an issue for me. So I know when
Speaker 1: you were embedded, um with these these far right extremists,
Speaker 1: I was seeing reporting from I think Mother Jones based
Speaker 1: on your sourcing, and you know, I really want to
Speaker 1: underscore that it is so difficult for traditional journalists to
Speaker 1: really get a firsthand account of what's happening in a
Speaker 1: lot of these spaces. And you know, I think was
Speaker 1: it a Trump donor who was screaming white power? I
Speaker 1: saw a video? Was that that was your video? So
Speaker 1: I guess my question is when you were doing this project,
Speaker 1: did you find that people were news outlets were excited
Speaker 1: to work with you or was it were they more
Speaker 1: kind of you know, like, oh this, I don't know
Speaker 1: if we can publish this, like this is not what
Speaker 1: we want to publish. Like what was the what was
Speaker 1: the vibe like around outlets reporting the things that you
Speaker 1: were sourcing from being embedded with these communities. I heard
Speaker 1: um from a lot of editors this is extremely cool, um,
Speaker 1: also highly un ethical. So come back when you're done.
Speaker 1: People did not want to work with me. Individual journalists,
Speaker 1: we're okay with it. I mean, Zach knew, Um, I
Speaker 1: watched that get kicked out of an event with Gorka
Speaker 1: in Tyson's corner. Um. So you know, like I would
Speaker 1: message people who were at events that I was at
Speaker 1: and and you know, and obviously I grew up here,
Speaker 1: so I do have friends who were journalists. UM. But
Speaker 1: you know, by and large, everybody was like, this is
Speaker 1: very neat, but we literally cannot pay you to write
Speaker 1: about it unless you're going to write about your with
Speaker 1: your real name attached. It's like, well guess what. Um,
Speaker 1: the whole time was undercover. I um went by Frank
Speaker 1: on Twitter with a picture of a turtle, so people
Speaker 1: assumed I was a man, which was wonderful. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, people didn't. They didn't want to mess with it,
Speaker 1: and I tried to rationalize. I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's unethical because like you can't wear a mask like
Speaker 1: the things I went to you. If you were a
Speaker 1: mask your journalist, you're out. Um. But you know that's
Speaker 1: not really what it was. It's just lying to a
Speaker 1: Nunzi is unethical, which is wild me more after a
Speaker 1: quick break, so if you've ever wondered, I wonder what
Speaker 1: Bridget is up to when she's not making the podcast
Speaker 1: that I have great news for you. We just launched
Speaker 1: our brand new newsletter where I'm gonna be writing about
Speaker 1: things I'm paying attention to online, interesting stories that didn't
Speaker 1: make it to the podcast, and a whole lot more.
Speaker 1: I promise you will never spam you. You can subscribe
Speaker 1: to our newsletter at Tandi dot com slash newsletter and
Speaker 1: it's gonna be like a useful newsletter. I promise you
Speaker 1: can also support the show by checking out our merch
Speaker 1: store at tangoti dot com slash store. Let's get right
Speaker 1: back into it. So I read one of your pieces
Speaker 1: where you talked about how in the beginning you would
Speaker 1: just show up to these events and you didn't, I
Speaker 1: mean like you were. You're a blonde woman, you know,
Speaker 1: you're not asking too many questions. A lot of people
Speaker 1: just assumed that you were one of them. And I
Speaker 1: think that's so interesting that I think that the way
Speaker 1: that you that your work relies on being white and
Speaker 1: also your gender, that I think a lot of these
Speaker 1: people are just like, oh, this like white blonde woman
Speaker 1: is hanging around certainly she's one of us. Certainly she
Speaker 1: like she can come to the next event with us.
Speaker 1: Certainly we shouldn't, you know, introduce HERR so and so
Speaker 1: and like move her along the ranks. And I think
Speaker 1: it's interesting how you basically just didn't challenge that. You
Speaker 1: let them run with whatever assumption that they were going
Speaker 1: to have, and that's what got you so deep into
Speaker 1: the middle and into the mix with these extremists. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Some of my friends who are not white would always
Speaker 1: comment and I'm like, you know, you can do it too,
Speaker 1: but it's like a real commitment to the bit because
Speaker 1: it's gonna be like my granddaughter says, I'm racist, but
Speaker 1: you're here, so let's take a picture. You know. It's
Speaker 1: like it's a good thing I never had to do. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, I was never intending to like have a
Speaker 1: personality undercover. I I just went to see pack and
Speaker 1: I was like, well, it just records of stuff, and
Speaker 1: you know, I was like, like, whoever, like whatever lefty
Speaker 1: like podcast, they can't go And I had sold stuff
Speaker 1: to other podcasts, so I was like when I just recorded.
Speaker 1: And then this guy came up to me and he
Speaker 1: was like, hey, um, did you want to help recruit
Speaker 1: mac Gates to join our organization. And I'm like, what
Speaker 1: you know, And it's just no questions asked, just you're
Speaker 1: physically present, you look like you belong. So yeah, just
Speaker 1: come on, come on be with us. It's fine. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is You're almost inspiring me. This is like, like,
Speaker 1: just show up and just assume people are not going
Speaker 1: to ask questions that it might work out. You know.
Speaker 1: It's almost kind of like a like a a confidence thing.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, what do you think about scammers?
Speaker 1: Like you're an adelvis of the world and things like that.
Speaker 1: I think a big part of it is just sort
Speaker 1: of assuming that people are going to be like, oh,
Speaker 1: she looks like she belongs. It's fine. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: that's literally. So, like I said, I work in live events,
Speaker 1: um and there is a there's a place that hosts
Speaker 1: events in Columbia, Maryland. And I realized about eight years
Speaker 1: ago I could go to any event I went there
Speaker 1: if I parked an employee parking in war Khakis because
Speaker 1: I had done that for years, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So I just like you, just like I got it
Speaker 1: belong here, Like what's your question? I don't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like you know, when you go to an event
Speaker 1: and if you you look for the person with the clipboard,
Speaker 1: because that seems like they're in charge. They've got a clipboard.
Speaker 1: You know, you could just like bring a clipboard anywhere.
Speaker 1: They'll let you win. Um, pretty much. I guess one
Speaker 1: of the other questions I have for you is do
Speaker 1: you do you think that being a woman, like, do
Speaker 1: you think that you would have been able to do
Speaker 1: this in the same way had you been a man.
Speaker 1: Do you think that your identity really helped you? Yeah? Um,
Speaker 1: so obviously, Like when I got when a good docks,
Speaker 1: you could see like the tree of people like a
Speaker 1: fin as they realized. And it was like one guy realized,
Speaker 1: but he wanted to sleep with me, so he like
Speaker 1: didn't tell the guy who also wanted to sleep with me,
Speaker 1: but like he told his other friend, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, So you could tell. I could tell over
Speaker 1: the course of like six weeks, like who like blocked
Speaker 1: me and like you know, when you know, out of
Speaker 1: their like out of their mind, like trying to like
Speaker 1: hide everything from me. Um. I think it gave me
Speaker 1: a very easy pass and it made people trust me more.
Speaker 1: And I also don't have to prove stuff the way
Speaker 1: I would have had to prove if I was a guy.
Speaker 1: You know, like, um, my personality was always the same.
Speaker 1: I was just like the racist, fascist version of myself,
Speaker 1: you know, like bizarro me. But I was like, it's
Speaker 1: too much to turn off my personality. So everyone I
Speaker 1: like kind of vibed with was you know, from Chicago
Speaker 1: or Detroit or Boston. You know, they weren't. I wasn't
Speaker 1: like hanging out people from Alabama or Kentucky because it's
Speaker 1: just not who I am, Like, you know, that wouldn't
Speaker 1: have not gonna again, not gonna be a chrad wife. Um,
Speaker 1: And they like it made them, you know, just kind
Speaker 1: of kind of let things go a little bit more.
Speaker 1: And I would always pretend to not know what stuff was.
Speaker 1: And like if I was a guy, that might not
Speaker 1: have made as much sense. But I was a woman,
Speaker 1: and we are naturally stupider, So yes, it was it
Speaker 1: was you know, like much easier to do that. And
Speaker 1: I I think too, if I had been a man,
Speaker 1: there would have been maybe a little bit more vetting
Speaker 1: of me. I literally used my real name, like I
Speaker 1: used a fake lass name, but not by much. And
Speaker 1: I told them like I was Amanda Lily, my name
Speaker 1: is a mine more um from Annapolis and I'm from
Speaker 1: Alexandria and I used to an Annapolis and there was
Speaker 1: like public record of Ie and nobody ever. They were like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. I think she's she's great, everything great, you know,
Speaker 1: but I might have been drawn from Annapolis. They might
Speaker 1: have looked into me a little bit more, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, and they just let it all go.
Speaker 1: They don't care. Wow, I love I love you using
Speaker 1: their own biases against them, like weaponizing their biases against them.
Speaker 1: Love it um. So one of my last questions for
Speaker 1: you is, I know that when you went undercover in
Speaker 1: these movements, you you know, were out of work. I
Speaker 1: also worked in life events before the pandemic, and so
Speaker 1: I was also out of work, and you were going
Speaker 1: through the same frustrating, funked up ass process that I
Speaker 1: was going through, which is trying to get unemployment, trying
Speaker 1: to figure out any kind of like services or support
Speaker 1: for myself after I lost my job. And you know,
Speaker 1: I read that you really that that that kind of
Speaker 1: radicalized you much farther left when you realize like, wow,
Speaker 1: the pandemic is hit and all of us are just
Speaker 1: kind of on our own and our government kind of
Speaker 1: abandoned us. And so I guess my question is, and
Speaker 1: I felt the exact same way. My question is, are
Speaker 1: there ways that you see a parallel with that in
Speaker 1: some of the people who were in these extremist movements,
Speaker 1: Because I would have to imagine that those people feel
Speaker 1: the same way that their government has abandoned them, that
Speaker 1: they don't have any real meaningful recourse in terms of
Speaker 1: civic engagement, and that is but obviously that has pushed
Speaker 1: them in the opposite direction. But I'm wondering, do you
Speaker 1: see a parallel there between your experience of being feeling
Speaker 1: abandoned in the pandemic and their experiences as well. You're
Speaker 1: the first person to ever ask me that. Oh, Um,
Speaker 1: Usually people ask me, um, what advice do you have?
Speaker 1: People going under cover and nice they don't do it?
Speaker 1: And a lot of it is that, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: if I was going to become a neo fascist racist,
Speaker 1: like that ship would have already sailed by now, given
Speaker 1: the way that I was like raised, right, um, And
Speaker 1: I if you look at the guy who's like running
Speaker 1: the trucker convoy right now, Brian brasse Um, he was
Speaker 1: he's a trucker, but he was doing stuff for music
Speaker 1: tours like zz Top. I think, so he was in
Speaker 1: the same boat as us. And a lot of what
Speaker 1: he attributes to what he's doing now is his son.
Speaker 1: His son passed away about six months ago. And also
Speaker 1: losing work, and like, I get it right, Like I
Speaker 1: lost my job because I'm mixed income, which means you're
Speaker 1: part W two and part to ninety nine. I got
Speaker 1: a hundred dollars a week for unemployment, which is DC
Speaker 1: is the lowest unemployment of a place in the country.
Speaker 1: So I really understand what Brian is going through. I
Speaker 1: did not decide to lead an insurrectionist group terrorizing residents
Speaker 1: of d C. You're welcome, um, And he did. And
Speaker 1: something that I think also scares me is that a
Speaker 1: lot of the moving on the right right now, especially
Speaker 1: with people under thirty five, is populism. And so I
Speaker 1: see exactly how someone could have been in my exact
Speaker 1: position and also be a white person who was raised
Speaker 1: in some type of Christianity and to be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is extremely appealing, you know, um, And I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's like an under underreported
Speaker 1: thing because people feel like, oh, if you've got an employment.
Speaker 1: On the right, people say, oh, if you've got an employment,
Speaker 1: you made more, you know, than you would have made
Speaker 1: working as like I did not. It's not true. I
Speaker 1: lost my home, like it's definitely not true. And on
Speaker 1: the left people are like, well, you know, like we
Speaker 1: helped you, and it's like, did you. I don't feel
Speaker 1: very helped um, but you know, I'm not. I'm not
Speaker 1: a racist asshole, and I don't think you need to
Speaker 1: be like that like mindset, but you have to kind
Speaker 1: of in a way to be open to it. And
Speaker 1: I can see how hearing stuff from the populist you know,
Speaker 1: definitely drags people that way. I want to be very clear.
Speaker 1: At the upper echelon is not like this. Other than Bryan.
Speaker 1: I think he's actually like an anomaly within this. I
Speaker 1: think most of the people who are leading things are
Speaker 1: you know, kind of set for life and if they
Speaker 1: want to have two point five kids and might pick
Speaker 1: a house and a wife that stays a home, they
Speaker 1: can have that. Um. But I do think a lot
Speaker 1: of the rank and FIO people are people who were
Speaker 1: in a position like may are you and you know,
Speaker 1: just different priorities, whether your priorities yourself or whether it's
Speaker 1: the greater good for people in general. That's really it's
Speaker 1: it's helpful. It sounds very scary, but also kind of
Speaker 1: hopeful in a kind of way, Like I guess, I
Speaker 1: guess it kind of gives me hope that people can
Speaker 1: be reached, some people can be I don't know, is
Speaker 1: that how you feel. I think that if I truly
Speaker 1: believe with all of my heart that this country we're
Speaker 1: like neo fascist racists, I wouldn't bother having this conversation.
Speaker 1: I'd already be in London, like by um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think I think a lot of people. It's something
Speaker 1: it's really hard to wrestle with, right because you have
Speaker 1: to be like I see why you went a little racist,
Speaker 1: and I see why you're a little anti Semitic, but
Speaker 1: like we're willing to still like work with you, like
Speaker 1: you should not work with the fascist or like a
Speaker 1: literal Nazi, but like the general population, and it's like
Speaker 1: it sucks. It sucks when you can't like I couldn't,
Speaker 1: I couldn't buy food, Like my clients were like from
Speaker 1: Australia were like sending me money because you're like, I
Speaker 1: cannot believe all America is like doing you guys right, Like, um,
Speaker 1: it sucks. It stuck to lose my home. It's hard
Speaker 1: to sleep on couches and to like stay with my mom.
Speaker 1: You know, Like I'm thirty three years old. I was awful,
Speaker 1: and I can see how, you know, if whatever, Like
Speaker 1: I see how you get there. And if we're willing
Speaker 1: to talk to those people and be like, actually, the
Speaker 1: people who are obstructing unemployment. You know, my dad like
Speaker 1: tried to tell me something about how great Republicans were,
Speaker 1: and I was like, actually, Dad, Bernie Sanders is why
Speaker 1: I am not like literally have not killed myself, you know,
Speaker 1: like he's why I'm getting this extra six d dollars
Speaker 1: a week, Like what are you talking about? You know?
Speaker 1: And if people if we can reach people and make
Speaker 1: them realize that, you know, I think there is hope
Speaker 1: to like pull people to the to the left. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people just operate within their own
Speaker 1: self interest and and I think, you know, we look
Speaker 1: at them and say, oh, you're you're voting against your
Speaker 1: self interest, but in their minds, they're not. And if
Speaker 1: we can show them reality, um, and if you have.
Speaker 1: I just always feel like if you don't believe that, like,
Speaker 1: what's the point because it's half the country? Why a bother? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think that you put that so so nicely. Um,
Speaker 1: you mentioned London earlier. I have to final questions. Where
Speaker 1: can folks follow you? And what's next for you? Do
Speaker 1: you have any any updates or news that you can share?
Speaker 1: Maybe a question mark so you can follow me on
Speaker 1: Twitter's where I'm most annoying. So Twitter, that's not true.
Speaker 1: You're one of my favorite Twitter follows. Thank you, um
Speaker 1: so Twitter, TikTok or Instagram at no turtle soup seventeen um.
Speaker 1: And then next for me is that I am hoping
Speaker 1: someone lets me write a book and if they do that,
Speaker 1: I'm going to London to write it because I can't
Speaker 1: write it here. I'll just drink too much and hang
Speaker 1: out with my friends too much. I'll never get done,
Speaker 1: so I gotta go far away. I know like eight
Speaker 1: people in London. That's way foreer people than I know here.
Speaker 1: I think it's a good, good, bad, beautiful Amanda Moore, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for bringing so much of yourself
Speaker 1: to this conversation. If you want to tune into more
Speaker 1: conversations like this. Check out my podcast, There Are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet on iHeart Radio. New episodes stop
Speaker 1: every Tuesday. I am Richard Tod. This has been amazing.
Speaker 1: Thank you for hanging with me for our first podcast,
Speaker 1: saving We did it. We did it together. There we Go.
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech. I
Speaker 1: just want to say hi. You can be just a
Speaker 1: hello at tang godi dot com. You can also find
Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tang godi dot com. There
Speaker 1: Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me,
Speaker 1: Bridget Tod. It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss
Speaker 1: creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is
Speaker 1: our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer.
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